Uh……no it hasn’t. Actually in some ancient cultures into the Medieval era gays and lesbians were allowed to get married because marriage was used to gain property and money for families…but let’s forget that. Let’s just set aside history and pretend he’s right….does this mean that you are not “banning” my girlfriend and I from getting married if one of us wears a tux and says we’re a guy? It would be between a man and woman at that point, right? Maybe one of us should completely dress in drag with facial hair and everything to make you more comfortable? And it wasn’t necessarily that Obama supporters voted for the prop hate, what about people who chose not to vote for the president? I know people who only voted for amendments. And I’m sure some Obama supporters did vote for it, the numbers wouldn’t change that dramatically, but how well was it advertised by the OPPOSITION to the amendment? Not very well from what I’ve heard. So is it any surprise that the borderline people didn’t know the full extend of what it implied and that it would have such an overwhelming impact?

The Religious Right should be as concerned as anyone about eliminating rights. Freedom of religion is a right. What happens if 50%+1 of Americans suddenly decide they are tired of evangelical Christians? If the right to bare arms or practice religion was taken away by a majority vote, would they simply say “ok, the people have spoken”?

If you ever actually read the Bible you may find it hard to disprove, not because it talks about the unprovable but because of what it talks about that is irrefutable.

For instance: Why did the Pharisees (the religious leaders in Israel back then) not just expose Jesus Christ as a hoax? They had done so with ‘Miracle Workers’ for the last 300 years at the time, there had not been “miracles” in the Holy Land for that long until Jesus Christ.

Other Miracle workers were exposed as hoaxes and are recorded as such not just in the Bible but in contemporary historical documents by Titus and by Josephus, the latter attested to Christ’s existence and miracles.

The Pharisees rather tried to blaspheme the holy spirit saying it was the Devil’s work in Christ. Why didn’t they just expose him as a hoax to the masses?

Why didn’t they pull Jesus Christ up on the Temple Mount and gather a huge crowd of Jews and say “ok Christ, prove to us you can heal” and expose him as a hoax?

The question is of course rhetorical, the Bible is rational, it doesn’t prove anything, it only eliminates doubt. That is what allows you to have faith.

Because we have free will, God cannot reveal truth to you or you would have no free will. We must be in the dark, and have faith to “get it” which is the message of the Gospel.

Now you can complain I’m shoving religion down your throat but what I’m really doing is preaching you the Gospel, and now that you’ve heard it you should probably explore it; because God will not forgive you anymore of your ignorance. Your salvation now is dependent upon your coming to Christ, to accepting him into your heart and letting the Holy Spirit guide you and believe me there is a Holy Spirit.

Remember I had turned from God for 14 years, half of those I was a proclaimed Atheist, I have since accepted the Holy Spirit into my heart and believe me there is a Holy Spirit.

It is like a drug, it can be described no other way, and like a drug, you want all your friends to be doing it too…and that goes back to “love thy neighbor” and how it refers to Evangelism.

God Bless!

And to the gays here remember, sins are pardonable, if you accept the Holy Spirit into your heart, truly, it will guide you too, and if you are not guided to be heterosexual it’s not like you’re going to Hell for a sin, you’re doing your best as God made you to be righteous.

The Bible is extremely clear that marriage is between one man and one woman, Ephesians 6.

It’s tiresome for people to claim that you can be banned from doing something when the definition of that thing excludes you.

“The judges … affirmed the principle of separation of church and state when they said no church would be forced to perform a gay marriage counter to their beliefs.” — ucsbclassics53

Okay, then let the government — JPs — perform “civil union” sanctioning ceremonies for anyone who wishes, regardless of gender, and let the churces, synagogues, mosques, temples, etc. perform “marriage ceremonies”, according to their various beliefs, if the couple wishes. Or not, if they don’t wish. Same-sex, or hetero, as that particular church and couple believe. Separation of church and state. Property rights, inheritance rights, visitation rights, insurance rights, etc. all are protected, the whole argument about terminology is put to rest. You can have a civil union, or a marriage. Or both! (You might have to change “Marriage license” to “License to Wed”, but … details, details). I know the die-hard homophobes would never buy it, but I think a lot of more reasonable people might give it a think-over.

I personally feel more societally threatened by the gang violence here in the city where I live (which I know in my gut is a result of, among other things, the failure of the traditional heterosexual family system in so many ways) than I ever have by the thought of a couple of guys or gals living together “in sin.”

Near here is Northampton, Mass., a mecca for homosexuals of all types. Many same-sex couples. Many solid citizens of those orientations of both sexes. The mayor. Many local politicians; local business owners who employ many people and pay lots of taxes, generate lots of local “GDP”; lots of creative types and others who help make the place a tourist mecca which, again, causes the economy to boom even these days. Very little crime, even though it’s very near a large urban center right down river and (I’m pointing this part out to yank a few ultraconservative chains, not because I’d expect any connection) the place is highly ethnically diverse and relatively secular compared to, say, Palin’s “pro-America” areas. Stable family type town, including many same-sex-parent families.

The kids in those families — wait for it — are no more or less likely to be homosexual than those from heterosexual parents, because it isn’t taught or chosen. And they are less likely to have the problems that I see kids -here- having with gangs and drugs because the families are more stable. No incest, physical abuse, absentee fathers leaving after accidental pregnancies. By and large, the vast majority of these folks are stable, solid citizens who are committed to each other, their families, and their community. And their churches, too. And it shows in the quality of the children they raise.

Go figger.

Anybody tells you that same-sex families are bad for the kids or bad for society, they don’t know what they’re talking about. Odds are they’ve never had any first-hand experience, but only read or heard rightwing extremist propaganda. I speak from years of personal experience with family, friends and neighbors.

The judges did not take away any rights from the people who are against gay marriage. They affirmed the principle of separation of church and state when they said no church would be forced to perform a gay marriage counter to their beliefs. I would say the “pursuit of happiness” would also include the opportunity to be with your life partner.

November 20th, 2008 at 4:29 pm

What about the right to pursue happiness? Seems when you deny “some” couples the right to marry, you take away a portion of their pursuit of happiness.

So, I just blew two of your straw-man arguments completely out of the water. Want to try to support your prejudices some other way?

November 20th, 2008 at 12:52 pm

Just as the Dred Scott re-affirmed that slavery was right, so does Prop 8 re-affirm that some people are unwilling to extend equal rights to every American.

Give it time. In the 90’s, there was only about 40% support for same-sex marriage rights. Now, there is about 50% support for same-sex marriage rights. In about a decade the rest of America will wake up to the reality: same-sex marriage in no way, shape or form threatens opposite-sex marriage.

I know if I go to downtown San Diego, the gay community thrives there and in a lot of the interconnected areas. But if you come just 25 minutes north to the inland, you can’t throw a stone without it hitting a church.