At least 80 killed in Mumbai terrorist attacks.
At least 80 killed in Mumbai terrorist attacks.
Earlier today, terrorists attacked popular luxury hotels in Mumbai, India using machine-guns and grenades, killing at least 82 people and wounding 240. At the moment, “scores of tourists” remain trapped in one of the hotels. In response, President-elect Obama issued the following statement:
President-Elect Obama strongly condemns today’s terrorist attacks in Mumbai, and his thoughts and prayers are with the victims, their families, and the people of India. These coordinated attacks on innocent civilians demonstrate the grave and urgent threat of terrorism. The United States must continue to strengthen our partnerships with India and nations around the world to root out and destroy terrorist networks. We stand with the people of India, whose democracy will prove far more resilient than the hateful ideology that led to these attacks.
A group known as the “Deccan Mujahideen” has claimed responsibility. Earlier tonight, CNN’s Barbara Starr referred to the attacks as a “game-changer” according to “intelligence services around the world.” “Senior U.S. officials telling me just a few moments ago this is possibly the most well-coordinated attack they have seen in some time,” she added.
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I have a bad feeling it is going to be very bad for any Muslims in India. Got a friend a work whose mother is a stewardess that happened to be there. She called him at around eight tonight at work and said she was slightly hurt from some glass (not sure where she was at when that happened) but otherwise safe and okay. He was pretty shook up though so we let him go for the night.
Terrorism touches us all.
November 26th, 2008 at 11:37 pmAbsolutely terrible. Apparently, the main targets of the terrorists were American and British tourists. My heart is with the people of India, and I stand with President-elect Obama in strongly condemning these cowardly attacks. Let us hope that the Indian government strikes back by liberating the tourists and neutralizing the terrorists still within the hotels.
Stand strong. Do not falter.
November 27th, 2008 at 12:06 amGee, aren't we a charming species?
O/T: some of us have been sucked into the Sarah Palin White Turkey Hole, where almost everything is vile and disgusting...
November 27th, 2008 at 12:29 amWhy, Palin has probably created thousands of new vegetarians, with her grotesque pre-Thanksgiving combo Turkey pardon/Turkey slaughter. Is Palin a secret undercover agent for animal rights and vegetarianism?
Oval12345678 aka James K. Sayre Says:
Gee, aren’t we a charming species?
No, we sure as Hell are not.
By the Gods, how I grieve for the families of those held hostage by these Beasts in Human form.
Likewise, all those crewmembers of ships taken by pirates off the coast of Somalia - how is the world ever to save those people without assuring that yet more people will be hijacked and taken prisoner in the future?
How??
There is only one way, and that is to consider the hostages as already dead. Horrible, heartless and brutal, I know, but how else to handle this situation as to not encourage other violent men to do the same in the hope of gain?
It is stuff like this that pushes me into the conservative column. What is the Progressive approach to piracy? It is as old as boats....sometimes, the old ways are indeed the best ways.
November 27th, 2008 at 12:42 amMy guess is that Mossad was behind it. Zionist treachery knows no limits.
November 27th, 2008 at 1:29 amKeltoi at Night Says:
There is only one way, and that is to consider the hostages as already dead. Horrible, heartless and brutal, I know, but how else to handle this situation as to not encourage other violent men to do the same in the hope of gain?
It is stuff like this that pushes me into the conservative column. What is the Progressive approach to piracy? It is as old as boats….sometimes, the old ways are indeed the best ways.
I guess that's one reason I'm a liberal and you're a conservative. And the funny thing is, my side of the political aisle is the one that supposedly doesn't value life, and yet you're willing to write off the hostages. Why? So you have an excuse to storm the place and kill the terrorists? Do you think that the only way to win is to kill all the bad guys? Do you have any idea why they became bad guys in the first place? Which do you think is more effective at reducing the number of "bad guys" in the world - killing them as you find them, or preventing them from ever wanting to become "bad guys" by eliminating (as much as possible) the things that make people become "bad guys"? I can tell you this much. You won't learn anything from them if they're dead.
November 27th, 2008 at 2:26 amWhat do the "terrorist" want?
November 27th, 2008 at 2:56 amrepublicanSScareme Says:
My guess is that Mossad was behind it. Zionist treachery knows no limits.
Oh yeah, right. (<-EXTREMELY SNARKILY TYPED) That would explain the Israeli hostages they have. Were you even paying attention? Deccan Mujahideen is a extreme Muslim fundamentalist sect, you stupid moron. (And that's an emphasis on the stupid.) They, the DM, are the ones claiming responsibility. They are not at all following the true tenets of Muslim religion. And don't get cute and try to argue with me, I have an English translation of the Koran and a Muslim friend who will smack you down in a heartbeat.
And Keltoi YOU ARE AN IDIOT TOO. Violence begets violence. It is not going to keep them from these acts. Education is the only answer, and stupid people like you two idiots only add to the problem. Get an education and get reality or STF-UP!
November 27th, 2008 at 4:20 amI'm guessing Bush must have missed this bunch in his glorious war on terror.
AIO
November 27th, 2008 at 5:03 amYou can thank a Republican for this. World terrorism has tripled under their watch.
November 27th, 2008 at 5:54 amWhat a stark irony this story produced. The official reaction from the United States is handed out by the President-Elect while the creep who still retains the title of "president" pats a turkey on the back calling it one of "our feathered friends." Can't we speed up the calendar and make it January 20 already?
November 27th, 2008 at 7:18 amPlease let me get this straight. A journalist, Barbara Starr, calls the attacks a "game changer" and so they are? This is of course without reference to what she means exactly or why she believes it. She must be the most powerful journalist in the world!
November 27th, 2008 at 7:38 am#12. She probably got here start at the Fixed News Channel which explains her power and influence.
November 27th, 2008 at 8:02 amIs there any movement toward exchange of hostages?
November 27th, 2008 at 8:05 amThe largest, most expensive, most expansive intelligence agencies spanning the world and even spying on Americans and allies didn't pick up a peep on this plan. Were they all too busy listening to pillow-talk to pick up on this plan ahead of time?
What the hell are we paying for? Our intelligence communities are a joke!
November 27th, 2008 at 9:00 amKeltoi at Night Says:
It is stuff like this that pushes me into the conservative column. What is the Progressive approach to piracy? It is as old as boats….sometimes, the old ways are indeed the best ways.
November 27th, 2008 at 12:42 am
________
There is only one good way to fight piracy, and that's with good governance and international cooperation. It's no coincidence that you don't see Swedish pirates or Finnish pirates. They tend to come from places like Somalia, Nigeria, Indonesia, Bangladesh - places with lots of poverty and weak or nonexistent governments.
What has proven effective are cooperative efforts by regional governments to patrol their waters. In 2004, Indonesia, Malaysia, and Singapore agreed to step up patrols of the Malacca Strait, and reduced pirate attacks dramatically.
November 27th, 2008 at 9:01 amstewarjt Says: "A journalist, Barbara Starr, calls the attacks a “game changer” and so they are?"
There's also much being made about the "coordination" of the attacks .
November 27th, 2008 at 9:05 amI guess the bastards must have used some kind of timing and communications devices, and possibly some kind of calender to determine an agreed upon date for their attacks! OMFG!
Clearly this is completely different from the usual hilariously disorganized terrorism efforts we've seen in the past!!! OMFG we're all going to die!!!!
hussein toasterhead Says:
See, I thought cargo ships were required to pack some of their own ordnance. Maybe shipping companies will start packing a few belt-feds on their boats.
November 27th, 2008 at 9:10 amdixie blood Says: "What the hell are we paying for? Our intelligence communities are a joke!"
So you want total monitoring of all communications? I think you need to rethink your comment.
November 27th, 2008 at 9:12 ambrown acid: See, I thought cargo ships were required to pack some of their own ordnance
Nope. Where'd you get that idea?
November 27th, 2008 at 9:16 amHmm...I guess I thought it was a common sense thing that perhaps treaties have been established to address. I really had no solid foundation for that assumption, guess it just made sense.
November 27th, 2008 at 9:18 am5th Estate Says:
So you want total monitoring of all communications? I think you need to rethink your comment.
November 27th, 2008 at 9:12 am
_________
"Intelligence" doesn't necessarily mean worldwide wiretapping and monitoring every phone call in the world. That's the exact wrong approach - you don't find a needle in a haystack by piling on more hay.
The only kind of intelligence that'll really be effective against terror networks is the old fashioned Cold War kind - getting assets inside these organizations who are willing to help take them down. It's very possible, and we've done it in the past.
Organizations like al-Qa'ida and these new Deccan guys are not monoliths. They're not automatons. They're loose collections of people with different motivations and aspirations who cluster around a common ideology. Within these groups, conflicts arise, especially if the members of the group are of different tribes or ethnic groups. Good intelligence will find the guys who joined al-Qa'ida three years ago, have been passed over for promotion after promotion, are sick of bin Laden's bullshit, and are willing to supply some information to the ISI or the CIA in exchange for cash and asylum.
That's the kind of intelligence that works. Not a big net, but a bunch of very tiny ones.
November 27th, 2008 at 9:25 amdixie blood Says:
No...they have only been a joke under the Bush administration.
Had we not been playing nation builders and acting as the policemen of the world in Iraq, two things that Bush said that America would not do under his presidency, perhaps we'd be in a better situation to fight an actual war on terror. Not that we could have prevented the attacks in India, but still...
The unfortunate, sad, fact is this: neither we nor the rest of the world will be able to totally eliminate terrorism, and we will not be able to prevent all terrorist attacks. You do point to a relevant issue, however, in reference to our intelligence agencies listening to pillow talk, as recently revealed, and this should be further investigated (not that the Dems in Congress would actually do anything about it). The main point is this: how many terrorist plots were missed when our spies were finding out which American soldier was going to have sex with whom?
November 27th, 2008 at 9:28 amhussein toasterhead Says:
November 27th, 2008 at 9:28 amSUBTLETY? FROM THE US GOVERNMENT? SURELY YOU JEST!!!!
Who wants to be subtle? No one sells billions of dollars worth of weapons and technology when you go around being subtle!
November 27th, 2008 at 9:29 amthe brown acid Says:
See, I thought cargo ships were required to pack some of their own ordnance. Maybe shipping companies will start packing a few belt-feds on their boats.
November 27th, 2008 at 9:10 am
________
There might be a handgun on the bridge or something, but I don't believe cargo ships and oil tankers are that heavily armed. I'd think the last thing you want on an oil tanker carrying thousands of barrels of crude is to start a firefight.
I'd guess that the current policy of shipping companies is more of a don't resist/negotiate a ransom/collect the insurance approach.
November 27th, 2008 at 9:34 amhussein toasterhead:“Intelligence” doesn’t necessarily mean worldwide wiretapping and monitoring every phone call in the world."
Quite so, and indeed it seems the Bush administration has studiously rejected that approach, so in that respect "what are paying all this money for?" is a valid general question
(and the answer appears to be that we're paying a lot for 'political intelligence' to subvert democracy and justice at home and abroad).
BTW you say "...the old fashioned Cold War kind - getting assets inside these organizations who are willing to help take them down. It’s very possible, and we’ve done it in the past."
I know you are talking about a strategic humint approach and of course I agree, but
I can't think of/am not aware of any terrorist organizations that the US has infiltrated with the object of ruining their schemes (do the black Panthers count? Weather Underground? Those Puerto Ricans who wanted Independence and set off some explosives to get attention?).
Half the trick is defining "terrorism" of course, and come to think of it one metric for that moniker might be that the cause of the 'terrorist' is utterly unrealistic. Just hinking out loud.
November 27th, 2008 at 9:52 amhussein toasterhead: "There might be a handgun on the bridge or something, but I don’t believe cargo ships and oil tankers are that heavily armed."
The volatility of the cargo is indeed the key concern, particularly true of certain chemical cargoes, and even actually, grain. A friend of mine was a 2nd mate in the Merchant Marine and for volatile chemical cargo "spark suppression" was a major responsibility.
As you said don’t resist/negotiate a ransom/collect the insurance approach. seems to be the current approach.
What I wonder though, is where the Somalis get their intelligence from? The ocean is a big place and going out 450 KM in the mere hope of finding a target seems pretty risky to me--though maybe its such a busy shipping lane that the odds are better than I imagine.
November 27th, 2008 at 10:04 amI relize that AbleCluster just says stupid shit as a reason to hawk some other stupid shit. But this one is really moronic. Nuke the place, what an idiot...
November 27th, 2008 at 10:40 am5th Estate Says:
I know you are talking about a strategic humint approach and of course I agree, but
I can’t think of/am not aware of any terrorist organizations that the US has infiltrated with the object of ruining their schemes (do the black Panthers count? Weather Underground? Those Puerto Ricans who wanted Independence and set off some explosives to get attention?).
Half the trick is defining “terrorism” of course, and come to think of it one metric for that moniker might be that the cause of the ‘terrorist’ is utterly unrealistic. Just hinking out loud.
November 27th, 2008 at 9:52 am
There's a pretty simple working definition of terrorist I use: politics + violence. All terrorist groups have political motives: independence, such as Hamas or ETA; ultra-left politics, such as Nepal's Maoists or FARC, ultra-right politics, such as Colombia's paramilitaries and Uganda's Lord's Resistance Army, or pseudo-religious ideology, such as al-Qa'ida and its franchisees.
As far as human intelligence bringing down networks or stopping attacks, Jane Meyer talks about it a bit in The Dark Side. I think Michael Scheuer talks about it in American Hubris as well, but I don't recall specifics at the moment.
November 27th, 2008 at 11:05 amKeep in mind when you quote Barbara Starr that she is a Pentagon propagandist.
¶ AIO
November 27th, 2008 at 11:32 am> I guess the bastards must have used
> some kind of timing and communications
> devices, and possibly some kind of
> calender to determine an agreed
> upon date for their attacks! OMFG!
I too share your sense of sarcastic dread. Meethinks these guys aren't quite up to the sophistication level of the cyberterrorists from "Live Free or Die Harder". When people that sophisticated launch an attack, then I'lll start to be worried..
Yep, this is bad and all, but well, peopel die everyday...look
November 27th, 2008 at 11:59 amfor this being the subject of gratutious, wall to wall, overblown round the clock news coverage for the next month, at least
Ol' Fidel made a remark a few days ago in Granma that some may find pertinent. He said:
November 27th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
5th Estate Says:
What I wonder though, is where the Somalis get their intelligence from? The ocean is a big place and going out 450 KM in the mere hope of finding a target seems pretty risky to me–though maybe its such a busy shipping lane that the odds are better than I imagine.
November 27th, 2008 at 10:04 am
I doubt they have much trouble finding any ship they want to find - this information is readily available to anyone with an internet connection:
http://www.sailwx.info/shiptrack/shiplocations.phtml
November 27th, 2008 at 12:23 pmBack in the days of yore, round bout '76, 1776 that is, we Americans (colonists, then subjects to the Crown and King of England) became terrorists. We terrorized and murdered British Crown officials and their redcoat soldiers. Maybe it is time for Imperial India to get out of Kashmir and leave it to the Kashmirians...
November 27th, 2008 at 2:03 pmNovember 27-28, 2008 -- More evidence of CIA-backed syndicate involvement in Mumbai attacks
WMR's Asian intelligence sources have provided additional information on the wave of terrorist attacks in Mumbai. Under pressure from Washington, this past May Pakistan's Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gillani cut a secret deal with the United States and India to turn over to Delhi a number of residents of Pakistan wanted by India for terrorism. One of those included in the deal was the CIA's erstwhile asset, Mumbai-born Dawood Ibrahim, a veteran of CIA operations in Afghanistan during the mujaheddin war against the Soviets.
Ibrahim, according to our sources, has been under the protection of Pakistan's Inter Service Intelligence (ISI) intelligence agency since June. He is being protected in Quetta, near the Waziristan tribal region. The CIA is fearful that if Ibrahim is deported to India, RAW and Russia's Vladimir Putin will obtain the entire dossier on the CIA's sponsorship of criminal activities and terrorist attacks. ISI would prefer Ibrahim to move to the United Arab Emirates, perhaps Dubai, where he has extensive financial interests. Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari is a business rival of Ibrahim and the ISI would like Ibrahim to be at a distance from Pakistan's president and "settle scores" with his old "allies" and new enemies in Langley from outside Pakistani territory.
Ibrahim is reportedly using his gangland "muscle" in India to send a clear message to Delhi and Washington that he is a force to be reckoned with........
SOURCE - http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/
November 27th, 2008 at 7:16 pmNovember 27-28, 2008 — More evidence of CIA-backed syndicate involvement in Mumbai attacks (continued)
Ibrahim also sent a warning message to Israel by seizing Chabad House in Mumbai, reportedly a haven for right-wing Jewish Orthodox groups and Israeli military "trainers" who pose as backpackers on holiday in Kashmir during their reconnaissance missions. Apparently, the Israelis' uncouth behavior toward Kashmiri locals, including cheating taxi drivers and lodges, became known to Ibrahim who figured he could also take advantage of his assault on Mumbai to teach the Israelis a couple of lessons. The Israelis are in Kashmir to train Indians on their side of the India-Pakistan Kashmiri Line of Control. The Israelis maintain a military training facility, known as the Ibex Center, outside of Leh, the capital of Ladakh. There, the Israelis train Tibetan exiles and local Buddhist soldiers who serve in the Ladakh Scouts, the mountain commandos who patrol the Indian side of the Line of Control and the Siachen Glacier. Also trained by the Israelis is the "Tibetan Army," the Indian Army unit also known as the Special Frontier Force. The training takes place at the Mussorie parajump base in northern India. Kashmiri separatists claim Israeli trainers have served with Tibetan commandos in putting down insurgencies in Assam and Manipur in northeastern India.
The Israelis began operating out of Chabad House after receiving a contract in 1996, a year after a group of Western tourists were captured by militants in Kashmir. A Norwegian was beheaded in the incident. The attack was condemned by every mujahedin group in Kashmir and Pakistan. Some blamed Israelis for the kidnapping of the Westerners in exchange for the security contract and the use of Indian Air Force bases in Jammu, part of the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir. The Jammu bases are within a 20-minute striking range of Pakistan's nuclear facilities and missile bases. Pakistani ISI alleges that Israeli fighter bombers as the Jammu bases are disguised with false Indian markings and are armed with nuclear weapons.
WMR's Asian intelligence sources report that Chabad Houses are fronts for Israeli military intelligence and Mafia activities in other Asian cities. In Bangkok, Israeli military pilots and drivers who stay at the Chabad House there train Thai Army commandos, divers, and pilots who are fighting a Muslim secessionist movement along the southern border with Malaysia. Bangkok police have long suspected Chabad House as a center for the Israeli Mafia, which runs its Ecstasy and Ice trade from Bangkok for all of Southeast and East Asia. The Israeli Mafia also reportedly runs heroin labs in Myanmar, where an Israeli military officer serves in Myanmar's feared military counter-intelligence agency.
SOURCE - http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/
November 27th, 2008 at 7:18 pmWhy does the article not say they were Muslims? Why doesn't the article mention what the “Deccan Mujahideen” is about? According to AFP, the terrorists are "militants" and "extremists." What is going on when people are comfortable in their ignorance?
Please, read the Koran and the Hadith! Things will make a lot more sense. You will find out that Islam is about war not peace (btw, Islam means submission not peace).
Don't take my word for it, read these words directly from the Koran (click the link so you don't think there's a "context" issue):
9:5
So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Read the Hadith (again, go to the link and see both 176 and 177, check for context issues):
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176:
Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight wi the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:
Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."
These are just two examples...there are a lot more, unfortunately.
Still want to close your eyes? Read this
MUMBAI: When faced with a volley of gunshots, while sipping coffee at the Oberoi Hotel on Wednesday night, Ali Arpaciouglu, a Turkish citizen on a business trip to Mumbai, chose to escape through the hotel kitchen and down a flight of stairs that opened onto the road outside.
This was probably one of the best decisions he took. On the other hand, his business partner, Meltem Muezzinoglu, and her husband, Seyfi, both Turks, when faced with the same situation, decided to dash out of the restaurant and head upstairs instead. When terrorists laid siege to the hotel, the Muezzinoglus were held hostage....
The Muezzinoglus, however, found themselves in a hostage situation, along with a group of foreigners. That night, they shared a room with three foreigners - all women. Two machine-gun-wielding terrorists stood guard over them the whole night.
All the hostages were asked to reveal their religion. When the Muezzinoglus said they were Muslims, their captors told them that they would not be harmed. The other three Caucasian women were removed from the room next day, and the terrorists informed the Muezzinoglus that they had been shot....
November 28th, 2008 at 1:34 pmI think that sillyallah's blog is a piece of crap and I really did look at with my eyes open. Open or shut it is still a real piece of crap...
November 28th, 2008 at 3:53 pmsillyallah Says:
You are not only WRONG you are ignorant. I HAVE read the Koran and its no more about war then many books of the Old Testament and YES Islam means peace. I semetic langauges like Arabit if the consonants are the same the word has the same root. Like SaLaaM and iSLaM. More specifically it means the peace that comes through submission to God. Which of course is a type of PEACE not a type of submission. Your ignorance and bigotry are just stupid. You condescending to come in and TEACH us things you dont know anything about is precious but only underlines your stupidity it says nothing about us. Did you REALLY have to be told that a Muhajadeen was Islmic? The problems India is having right now are with Pakistan moron. Unless they were Sihks they were going to be Muslims. Try to keep up your uninformed mental midget
November 28th, 2008 at 4:19 pmI feel very unhappy about the way Wayne Madsen, who used to be a reputable investigative reporter, and was published regularly by Inter Press Service among others, has wandered off into the realm of the unverifiable, subscriber-only 'scoop'.
November 30th, 2008 at 3:39 amHey, sillyallah, have you read the racist, murderous crap that's in the Talmud? You want the quotes? They will really curl your hair. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
November 30th, 2008 at 4:22 amAhh - republicanSScareme, yes, you were the sicko who wrote this (Comment 5 above) while Jews in Chabad house were being killed:
"My guess is that Mossad was behind it. Zionist treachery knows no limits."
You can talk all you want about Talmud, but its useless since I'm an atheist (I am not in your supposed "glass house.") It's also useless because it's a fallacy - tu quoque ad hominem. You are trying to switch the subject and move away from the real issue at hand - how the Quran and Hadith promote the violence we saw this week. Simply put, we are talking about the real violence that was committed by Muslims in the name of Islam. Now that one attacker has been caught and has spoke, now we find out the truth:
"From there, they mandated to kill indiscriminately, particularly white foreign tourists, and spare Muslims split up into five batches. Two of them Ismail and Ajmal took a taxi to Victoria Terminus. Three other batches of two each headed for Oberoi Hotel, Cafe Leopold and Nariman House. The remaining four went to Taj Hotel."
"Spare Muslims" - why?
Quran 4:93
And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his punishment is hell; he shall abide in it, and Allah will send His wrath on him and curse him and prepare for him a painful chastisement.
Contrast that to:
9:5
So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
and
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:
Allah’s Apostle said, “The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. “O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.”
You see, unbelievers are fine to slay, especially those Jews...but don't touch another Muslim!
--------
Of course, even your point about the violent Talmud is fallacy because the Talmud was written by men. The Quran's violent words were from Allah directly and therefore are considered to be without error. Read what I wrote above:
It is important to understand the differences between Islam and the other two Abrahamic religions. These differences explain why the Quran’s violent words are much more dangerous:
1. Muslims consider the Quran to be the word of Allah, NOT the inspired word of Allah. Thus the Quran is considered perfect in the eyes of Muslims. No mistakes. Thus, there is no doubt on what to do when it says “beat your wife” if you fear disloyalty or “slay the unbeliever wherever you find them.”
2. The Quran’s words are considered timeless and universal, regardless of the context from which they came.
3. Islam is considered more than just a religion. It is considered a prescriptive guide to life, law, politics, warfare,…many have called Islam a “political religion” or even a socio-political system with religion as just an element.
Now, these points together, you have a violent, racist, misogynist guide to life that is timeless, universal and infallible.
----
go here for more:
Many apologists commit the tu quoque fallacy by comparing the Quran to the Bible. As an atheist, I can ignore the fallacy and see the violence in both books as abhorrent.
For the sake of argument, they are both violent - The Bible has 871 verses of cruelty and violence while the Quran has 512, but, since the Quran is much shorter, you can see that the Quran has about 3 X as violent percentage-wise: 8.2% vs. 2.8%. We can take this one step further, in light of abrogation, and realize that the Quran is much more than 3 times as violent. Unfortunately, there is more. If we add in verses that may not direct violence, but demonstrate hatred or viciousness towards unbelievers, the Quran shows its true ugly self:
November 30th, 2008 at 4:34 pmBy far the greatest portion, however, over 60% of the text of the Koran, is devoted to polemics against unbelievers, justifications for placing them in submission or killing them, on rewards for those who believe in Allah (especially for those who war against unbelievers), and punishment for unbelievers on earth and in the hereafter.
sillyallah,
Your's is a very good post because it exposes the lie that Islam is a "peaceful religion."
Don't pay any attention to the head bomb-thrower here...
November 30th, 2008 at 8:51 pmHi Tim...
November 30th, 2008 at 11:38 pmsillyallah Says:
You can take parts of the bible out of context and make it look bloodthirsty too. That is what bigots do. Your hate for Islam is just that bigotry and basic ignorance. I HAVE A KORAN it says DIRECTLY that there are good Christians and Jews and they should be treated well also that they have nothing to fear from Allah on the day of judgement. The Koran says DIRECTLY there must be no coercion in religion. You are a bigot and your hatefilled bigotry does NOT define reality. The 60% argument is an outright LIE I have READ the Koran it is NOT like that you are a liar.
December 1st, 2008 at 4:11 amTim Vaculik Says:
Timmeh you are ignorant. You are stupid. It is a known fact. No one here with a single functioning braincell takes you seriously or cares what you have to say. There is no reason to give you facts or logic they are LOST on you. You are simply to stupid to understand them. Please dont breed and introduce your soulless stupidity into our genepool.
December 1st, 2008 at 4:14 amThere is no compulsion where the religion is concerned. Right guidance has become clearly distinct from error. Anyone who rejects false gods and has faith in God has grasped the Firmest Handhold, which will never give way. God is All-Hearing, All-Knowing. (Surat al-Baqara: 256)
The people of the book that is Christians and Jews are described thus
"a nation upstanding ... They are in the ranks of the righteous." (3: 113-114).
The Koran says
Humanity is ONE COMMUNITY
http://www1.tip.nl/~t717080/home/koran.htm
62. Those who believe, and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
II.82. Those who have faith and work righteousness, they are companions of the Garden: Therein shall they abide (for ever).
III. 113-115. Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right)...
They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.
Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knoweth well those that do right.
VII.170. As to those who hold fast by the (Jewish) Book and establish regular prayer, never shall We suffer the reward of the righteous to perish.
93. We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwellingplace, and provided for them sustenance of the best: it was after knowledge had been granted to them, that they fell into schisms. Verily Allah will judge between them as to the schisms amongst them, on the Day of Judgment.
XXXIII. 23. Among the Believers are men who have been true to their covenant with Allah. of them some have completed their vow (to the extreme), and some (still) wait: but they have never changed (their determination) in the least:
And even when Israel sinned several times, Allah forgave them
II. 51,52. And remember We appointed forty nights for Moses, and in his absence ye took the calf (for worship), and ye did grievous wrong.
Even then We did forgive you; ...
VII. :45. It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): with therein guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.
XXXIII. 7. And remember We took from the prophets their covenant... from Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus the son of Mary: We took from them a solemn covenant.
XXXVII114-122. Again (of old) We bestowed Our favour on Moses and Aaron, And We delivered them and their people from (their) Great Calamity; And We helped them, so they overcame (their troubles); And We gave them the Book which helps to make things clear; "Peace and salutation to Moses and Aaron!" Thus indeed do We reward those who do right. For they were two of our believing Servants.
III. 3. It is He Who sent down to thee, in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).
III. 187. And remember Allah took a covenant from the People of the Book, to make it known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it;
XXIX. 46. And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Tell us the truth you are Daniel Pipes arent you?
December 1st, 2008 at 4:29 amEugeneDebs, you're true colors are showing. Tell us the truth - you are a Muslim apologist practicing Taqqiyah, right? If you really have studied the Quran, you know that most of the beautiful, friendly verses of the Quran have been abrograted (replaced) by the more violent verses. Believe me, I wish I was twisting the context. Unfortunately, it's you, as the Mumbai terrorists well know.
Shall we go through some Islamic study for the benefit of others? Let me quote from my blog:
Does the Quran promote violence or peace?
The short answer - the Quran appears to promotes both, but really promotes violence. When listening to Muslims, you will often hear them only quote the peaceful passages. However, they are practicing Taqqiyah - misleading with dishonesty for the greater purpose of promoting Islam. Unfortunately, the peaceful passages are abrogated by the later more violent passages. Let me quote from JihadWatch.org:
The principle of abrogation -- al-naskh wa al-mansukh (the abrogating and the abrogated) -- directs that verses revealed later in Muhammad's career "abrogate" -- i.e., cancel and replace -- earlier ones whose instructions they may contradict. Thus, passages revealed later in Muhammad's career, in Medina, overrule passages revealed earlier, in Mecca. The Quran itself lays out the principle of abrogation:
Quran 2:106. Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We {Allah} abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things?
Now let's put everything together by first giving an extremely brief history of Muhammad and Islam:
Mohammad started Islam in Mecca while under the protection of his wealthy, much older wife, Khadija and his uncle Abu Talib. Muhammad was inspired by the monotheistic Jews and Christians, whom he met during trade and travel. Although protected, Muhammad and his followers were in a relatively weak position while in Mecca. Thus, the Meccan verses of the Quran show humility and are relatively peaceful (e.g., 2:256: "there is no compulsion in religion").
In 619, both Khadija and his powerful uncle died, leaving the Meccan Muslims without protection. Muhammad moved to Medina a few years later with just a few hundred followers, and found a more receptive audience. After gaining more converts (and marrying a child named Aisha), Muhammad realized the power of a politically-driven religion. He decided to grow at a more rapid pace by raiding Meccan caravans, and sharing the spoils with his followers (e.g., Chapter 8 of the Quran is titled "Spoils of War; Booty," detailing how to divide the wealth). His vengeance against the Meccans that had persecuted him and his followers did not cease until he defeated and converted them, murdering his remaining, unconverted enemies. He also reversed his view of fellow monotheists, Jews and Christians, because of their disbelief and aloofness to his new religion. New, vicious verses in the Quran were "revealed" to justify the destruction, murder and enslavement of entire Jewish communities (the male Jews of Banu Qurayza were massacred while the females and children were banished or became slaves). In this Medina period, Muhammad's "revelations" take a turn to the violent:
9:29
December 1st, 2008 at 11:53 amFight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
sillyallah Says:
You are a stupid hateful propagandist. How do you REPLACE verses in any sacred literature. Go blogwhore somewhere else moron. I am not a Muslim. I have read much of the worlds sacred literature I am nust not a bigoted ignoramus who replaced tolerance and understanding with hatred and propaganda. Again a whole lot of the bible can be taken out of context to show IT as violent and primative. It talks about having to hate your mother and father and stone disobedient children to death. You are a bigot and a hater who longs for a holy war I am sure you will let others fight for you. The verses have been replaced huh? You are an idiot. I KNOW Muslims some of whom are the most gentle and God loving people I have ever met. Sure there are nutbags who twist scripture for their own twisted purpose. Lets fight THEM not the religion. Jim Jones twisted scripture. They did the same during the Inquisitions. The thing is when the Jews were the most violent terrorists in the world. Doing things like blowing up the King David Hotel, the Hotel Semiramis, the Cairo to Haifa railroad, the SS Patria or assasinating Folke Burnadotte and Lord Moyne we didnt blame Judaism. When the IRA were the most violent terrorists in the world we didnt blame Catholicism. We correctly understood the political dynamic at work. Today when the worst terrorists in the world are Islamic bigots like YOU want to blame Islam. As I have said I have READ the Koran it is not a book of violence and terrorism. YOU are a fraud.
December 1st, 2008 at 12:38 pmWow, I write facts and you make ad-hominem attacks. Well, I am not Daniel Pipes, nor am I "a stupid, hateful, propagadist," a "moron," a "bigoted ignoramus," a "hater," an "idiot" or a "fraud." And that was just one post from you! LOL
Strange also, that you want to demonize the Jews any chance you get (even wanting to name me as one by calling me Daniel Pipes), yet we are not talking about Judaism but Islam plain and simple. Again, I am an atheist who finds the violent commands of the Quran to be horrifying, especially in light of its supposed purely divine source and the principle of abrogation. As I've said earlier, I wish you were right. Unfortunately, you're not.
You really sound like you don't understand the principle of abrogation. So, I will first quote from the Quran:
Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things? [2:106]
And when We change (one) communication for (another) communication, and Allah knows best what He reveals, they say: You are only a forger. Nay, most of them do not know. [16:101]
Now, from Islamic scholars:
The Tafsir al-Jalalayn says that this verse (2:106) was revealed because “the disbelievers began to deride the matter of abrogation, saying that one day Muhammad enjoins his companions to one thing and then the next day he forbids it.”
Ibn Jarir Al-Tabari (d. 310 H.) said:
“Allah means with (Such of Our revelations as we abrogate): we abrogate the ruling of a verse by another to change and replace this ruling. This is by making Halal to become Haram and vice versa or to let what is permissible to become impermissible.
Ibn Kathir (1301-1372) quotes an earlier authority, Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim, to establish that the Verse of the Sword, sura 9:5 ("slay the unbelievers wherever you find them") “abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolater, every treaty, and every term.”
Ibn Juzayy (d. 1340) agrees that one of this verse’s functions is “abrogating every peace treaty in the Qur’an.”
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So you see, the verse came about due to contradictions in the Quran and meant (as interpreted by the Islamic scholars, not me) to explain the contradictions away in a simple way. The latter verses replace the earlier verses. A benign example is a prohibition on alcohol:
For example, the prohibition of alcohol was accomplished gradually rather than immediately. The earliest verse tells the believers to "Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say, ..." (4:43), a prohibition of drunkenness but not alcohol. Later verses expanded prohibition to all alcohol consumption: "They ask thee concerning wine and gambling, say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit..."(2:219).
You may notice that chapter 2 came after chapter 4...it is important to note that the Quran was put together in order of size, not in historical order. This was decided by the Caliph at that time. However, there is general agreement on the order of the chapters...for example, chapter 9 (from which the most violent verses come) is considered the last.
December 1st, 2008 at 2:48 pmIslam is a major religion you can find bigots to demonize them if THAT is what you are looking for and YES you are a bigot and a hater and YOU dont get to tell me what we are going to talk about. I am in no way demonizing Jews. That is stupid. It says nothing more about Jews that in the 40s they had the worlds worst and most violent terrorist groups than it says about Islam that today THEY do. See thats the point. It isnt ABOUT the religion. I wouldnt expect to change a KKK members opinion about Blacks than YOUR about Islam. But you ARE a hater and a bigot and YOUR take doesnt mean a THING. I keep telling you I have READ the Koran no Muslim is in anyway obligated to listen to ANY religious teacher or ANY but his own concience finding nutbags to slander Islam is about like quoting Coulter and Pipes to Muslims and saying THIS is what America thinks of you. Keep your hatred your biased BS and your bigoted propaganda. I KNOW Muslims and NONE of the ones I know are haters not even as much as YOU are much less radical. I have READ the koran stop wasting your time telling me what this person or that person says about the Koran. You are a FRAUD, a hater and a bigot and its just that simple
December 1st, 2008 at 5:39 pmStay ignorant, hate me and keep hating Jews. Those are your choices. I feel comfortable with the readers' decisions on the true fraud no matter how many times you insult me in ALL CAPS.
I encourage all the readers not to take my word or any poster's word for the violence promoted by Islamic texts. I encourage all readers to read the Quran and some of the related Hadith. Read the sections I have quoted and check the context. Read the other sections. Read some of the most quoted Islamic scholars such as Ibn Kathir if you have time.
If you read the Quran in chronological order or revelation (as opposed to chapter number), please read to the end because of the principle of abrogation described above. The violence gets stronger and strong until the last chapter (9).
December 1st, 2008 at 7:36 pmMore evidence of Mossad's involvement in the Mumbai attacks:
http://www.realjewnews.com/?p=333
http://therearenosunglasses.wordpress.com/2008/11/28/mumbai-the-mossad-angle/
http://www.countercurrents.org/sikand291108.htm
http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/9310
There are 16,000 others. Do your own googling.
December 22nd, 2008 at 10:10 pmreplublicanS - you are one sick puppy. You had to wait 21 days after my post to put your Jew-hating propaganda up here. Luckily I came back.
Why don't you publish the truth: Mumbai attacks: Jews tortured before being executed during hostage crisis
"Jewish victims made up a disproportionate number of the foreigners killed after 10 Muslim fanatics stormed a series of sites in the Indian financial capital. "
"Doctors expressed horror at the condition of the bodies recovered from the Nariman Building, which housed the Orthodox Chabad-Lubavitch retreat.
"I have seen so many dead bodies in my life, and was traumatised," a mortician said. "It was apparent that most of the dead were tortured. What shocked me were the telltale signs showing clearly how the hostages were executed in cold blood." "
All you have shown with your 16,000 posts is the disgusting Jew-hatred that exists. Apparently, you are a part of it. Is that what "Progress" is supposed to be about at Think Progress?
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:38 pm