Why don’t you publish the truth: Mumbai attacks: Jews tortured before being executed during hostage crisis

“Jewish victims made up a disproportionate number of the foreigners killed after 10 Muslim fanatics stormed a series of sites in the Indian financial capital. ”

“Doctors expressed horror at the condition of the bodies recovered from the Nariman Building, which housed the Orthodox Chabad-Lubavitch retreat.

“I have seen so many dead bodies in my life, and was traumatised,” a mortician said. “It was apparent that most of the dead were tortured. What shocked me were the telltale signs showing clearly how the hostages were executed in cold blood.” ”

All you have shown with your 16,000 posts is the disgusting Jew-hatred that exists. Apparently, you are a part of it. Is that what “Progress” is supposed to be about at Think Progress?

http://www.realjewnews.com/?p=333

http://therearenosunglasses.wordpress.com/2008/11/28/mumbai-the-mossad-angle/

http://www.countercurrents.org/sikand291108.htm

http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/9310

There are 16,000 others. Do your own googling.

I encourage all the readers not to take my word or any poster’s word for the violence promoted by Islamic texts. I encourage all readers to read the Quran and some of the related Hadith. Read the sections I have quoted and check the context. Read the other sections. Read some of the most quoted Islamic scholars such as Ibn Kathir if you have time.

If you read the Quran in chronological order or revelation (as opposed to chapter number), please read to the end because of the principle of abrogation described above. The violence gets stronger and strong until the last chapter (9).

Strange also, that you want to demonize the Jews any chance you get (even wanting to name me as one by calling me Daniel Pipes), yet we are not talking about Judaism but Islam plain and simple. Again, I am an atheist who finds the violent commands of the Quran to be horrifying, especially in light of its supposed purely divine source and the principle of abrogation. As I’ve said earlier, I wish you were right. Unfortunately, you’re not.

You really sound like you don’t understand the principle of abrogation. So, I will first quote from the Quran:

Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things? [2:106]

And when We change (one) communication for (another) communication, and Allah knows best what He reveals, they say: You are only a forger. Nay, most of them do not know. [16:101]

Now, from Islamic scholars:
The Tafsir al-Jalalayn says that this verse (2:106) was revealed because “the disbelievers began to deride the matter of abrogation, saying that one day Muhammad enjoins his companions to one thing and then the next day he forbids it.”

Ibn Jarir Al-Tabari (d. 310 H.) said:
“Allah means with (Such of Our revelations as we abrogate): we abrogate the ruling of a verse by another to change and replace this ruling. This is by making Halal to become Haram and vice versa or to let what is permissible to become impermissible.

Ibn Kathir (1301-1372) quotes an earlier authority, Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim, to establish that the Verse of the Sword, sura 9:5 (”slay the unbelievers wherever you find them”) “abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolater, every treaty, and every term.”

Ibn Juzayy (d. 1340) agrees that one of this verse’s functions is “abrogating every peace treaty in the Qur’an.”

——–
So you see, the verse came about due to contradictions in the Quran and meant (as interpreted by the Islamic scholars, not me) to explain the contradictions away in a simple way. The latter verses replace the earlier verses. A benign example is a prohibition on alcohol:

For example, the prohibition of alcohol was accomplished gradually rather than immediately. The earliest verse tells the believers to “Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say, …” (4:43), a prohibition of drunkenness but not alcohol. Later verses expanded prohibition to all alcohol consumption: “They ask thee concerning wine and gambling, say: “In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit…”(2:219).

You may notice that chapter 2 came after chapter 4…it is important to note that the Quran was put together in order of size, not in historical order. This was decided by the Caliph at that time. However, there is general agreement on the order of the chapters…for example, chapter 9 (from which the most violent verses come) is considered the last.

You are a stupid hateful propagandist. How do you REPLACE verses in any sacred literature. Go blogwhore somewhere else moron. I am not a Muslim. I have read much of the worlds sacred literature I am nust not a bigoted ignoramus who replaced tolerance and understanding with hatred and propaganda. Again a whole lot of the bible can be taken out of context to show IT as violent and primative. It talks about having to hate your mother and father and stone disobedient children to death. You are a bigot and a hater who longs for a holy war I am sure you will let others fight for you. The verses have been replaced huh? You are an idiot. I KNOW Muslims some of whom are the most gentle and God loving people I have ever met. Sure there are nutbags who twist scripture for their own twisted purpose. Lets fight THEM not the religion. Jim Jones twisted scripture. They did the same during the Inquisitions. The thing is when the Jews were the most violent terrorists in the world. Doing things like blowing up the King David Hotel, the Hotel Semiramis, the Cairo to Haifa railroad, the SS Patria or assasinating Folke Burnadotte and Lord Moyne we didnt blame Judaism. When the IRA were the most violent terrorists in the world we didnt blame Catholicism. We correctly understood the political dynamic at work. Today when the worst terrorists in the world are Islamic bigots like YOU want to blame Islam. As I have said I have READ the Koran it is not a book of violence and terrorism. YOU are a fraud.

Shall we go through some Islamic study for the benefit of others? Let me quote from my blog:

Does the Quran promote violence or peace?

The short answer – the Quran appears to promotes both, but really promotes violence. When listening to Muslims, you will often hear them only quote the peaceful passages. However, they are practicing Taqqiyah – misleading with dishonesty for the greater purpose of promoting Islam. Unfortunately, the peaceful passages are abrogated by the later more violent passages. Let me quote from JihadWatch.org:

The principle of abrogation — al-naskh wa al-mansukh (the abrogating and the abrogated) — directs that verses revealed later in Muhammad’s career “abrogate” — i.e., cancel and replace — earlier ones whose instructions they may contradict. Thus, passages revealed later in Muhammad’s career, in Medina, overrule passages revealed earlier, in Mecca. The Quran itself lays out the principle of abrogation:

Quran 2:106. Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We {Allah} abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things?

Now let’s put everything together by first giving an extremely brief history of Muhammad and Islam:

Mohammad started Islam in Mecca while under the protection of his wealthy, much older wife, Khadija and his uncle Abu Talib. Muhammad was inspired by the monotheistic Jews and Christians, whom he met during trade and travel. Although protected, Muhammad and his followers were in a relatively weak position while in Mecca. Thus, the Meccan verses of the Quran show humility and are relatively peaceful (e.g., 2:256: “there is no compulsion in religion”).

In 619, both Khadija and his powerful uncle died, leaving the Meccan Muslims without protection. Muhammad moved to Medina a few years later with just a few hundred followers, and found a more receptive audience. After gaining more converts (and marrying a child named Aisha), Muhammad realized the power of a politically-driven religion. He decided to grow at a more rapid pace by raiding Meccan caravans, and sharing the spoils with his followers (e.g., Chapter 8 of the Quran is titled “Spoils of War; Booty,” detailing how to divide the wealth). His vengeance against the Meccans that had persecuted him and his followers did not cease until he defeated and converted them, murdering his remaining, unconverted enemies. He also reversed his view of fellow monotheists, Jews and Christians, because of their disbelief and aloofness to his new religion. New, vicious verses in the Quran were “revealed” to justify the destruction, murder and enslavement of entire Jewish communities (the male Jews of Banu Qurayza were massacred while the females and children were banished or became slaves). In this Medina period, Muhammad’s “revelations” take a turn to the violent:

9:29
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

The people of the book that is Christians and Jews are described thus

“a nation upstanding … They are in the ranks of the righteous.” (3: 113-114).

The Koran says
Humanity is ONE COMMUNITY

http://www1.tip.nl/~t717080/home/koran.htm

62. Those who believe, and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,­ any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

II.82. Those who have faith and work righteousness, they are companions of the Garden: Therein shall they abide (for ever).

III. 113-115. Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right)…

They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.

Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knoweth well those that do right.

VII.170. As to those who hold fast by the (Jewish) Book and establish regular prayer, ­ never shall We suffer the reward of the righteous to perish.

93. We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling­place, and provided for them sustenance of the best: it was after knowledge had been granted to them, that they fell into schisms. Verily Allah will judge between them as to the schisms amongst them, on the Day of Judgment.

XXXIII. 23. Among the Believers are men who have been true to their covenant with Allah. of them some have completed their vow (to the extreme), and some (still) wait: but they have never changed (their determination) in the least:

And even when Israel sinned several times, Allah forgave them

II. 51,52. And remember We appointed forty nights for Moses, and in his absence ye took the calf (for worship), and ye did grievous wrong.

Even then We did forgive you; …

VII. :45. It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): with therein guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed to Allah’s will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah’s book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.

XXXIII. 7. And remember We took from the prophets their covenant… from Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus the son of Mary: We took from them a solemn covenant.

XXXVII114-122. Again (of old) We bestowed Our favour on Moses and Aaron, And We delivered them and their people from (their) Great Calamity; And We helped them, so they overcame (their troubles); And We gave them the Book which helps to make things clear; “Peace and salutation to Moses and Aaron!” Thus indeed do We reward those who do right. For they were two of our believing Servants.

III. 3. It is He Who sent down to thee, in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).

III. 187. And remember Allah took a covenant from the People of the Book, to make it known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it;

XXIX. 46. And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, “We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow.”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Tell us the truth you are Daniel Pipes arent you?

Timmeh you are ignorant. You are stupid. It is a known fact. No one here with a single functioning braincell takes you seriously or cares what you have to say. There is no reason to give you facts or logic they are LOST on you. You are simply to stupid to understand them. Please dont breed and introduce your soulless stupidity into our genepool.

You can take parts of the bible out of context and make it look bloodthirsty too. That is what bigots do. Your hate for Islam is just that bigotry and basic ignorance. I HAVE A KORAN it says DIRECTLY that there are good Christians and Jews and they should be treated well also that they have nothing to fear from Allah on the day of judgement. The Koran says DIRECTLY there must be no coercion in religion. You are a bigot and your hatefilled bigotry does NOT define reality. The 60% argument is an outright LIE I have READ the Koran it is NOT like that you are a liar.

Your’s is a very good post because it exposes the lie that Islam is a “peaceful religion.”

Don’t pay any attention to the head bomb-thrower here…

You can talk all you want about Talmud, but its useless since I’m an atheist (I am not in your supposed “glass house.”) It’s also useless because it’s a fallacy – tu quoque ad hominem. You are trying to switch the subject and move away from the real issue at hand – how the Quran and Hadith promote the violence we saw this week. Simply put, we are talking about the real violence that was committed by Muslims in the name of Islam. Now that one attacker has been caught and has spoke, now we find out the truth:

“From there, they mandated to kill indiscriminately, particularly white foreign tourists, and spare Muslims split up into five batches. Two of them Ismail and Ajmal took a taxi to Victoria Terminus. Three other batches of two each headed for Oberoi Hotel, Cafe Leopold and Nariman House. The remaining four went to Taj Hotel.”

“Spare Muslims” – why?
Quran 4:93
And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his punishment is hell; he shall abide in it, and Allah will send His wrath on him and curse him and prepare for him a painful chastisement.

Contrast that to:

9:5
So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

and

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:
Allah’s Apostle said, “The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. “O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.”

You see, unbelievers are fine to slay, especially those Jews…but don’t touch another Muslim!

——–
Of course, even your point about the violent Talmud is fallacy because the Talmud was written by men. The Quran’s violent words were from Allah directly and therefore are considered to be without error. Read what I wrote above:

It is important to understand the differences between Islam and the other two Abrahamic religions. These differences explain why the Quran’s violent words are much more dangerous:

1. Muslims consider the Quran to be the word of Allah, NOT the inspired word of Allah. Thus the Quran is considered perfect in the eyes of Muslims. No mistakes. Thus, there is no doubt on what to do when it says “beat your wife” if you fear disloyalty or “slay the unbeliever wherever you find them.”

2. The Quran’s words are considered timeless and universal, regardless of the context from which they came.

3. Islam is considered more than just a religion. It is considered a prescriptive guide to life, law, politics, warfare,…many have called Islam a “political religion” or even a socio-political system with religion as just an element.

Now, these points together, you have a violent, racist, misogynist guide to life that is timeless, universal and infallible.

—-
go here for more:

Many apologists commit the tu quoque fallacy by comparing the Quran to the Bible. As an atheist, I can ignore the fallacy and see the violence in both books as abhorrent.

For the sake of argument, they are both violent – The Bible has 871 verses of cruelty and violence while the Quran has 512, but, since the Quran is much shorter, you can see that the Quran has about 3 X as violent percentage-wise: 8.2% vs. 2.8%. We can take this one step further, in light of abrogation, and realize that the Quran is much more than 3 times as violent. Unfortunately, there is more. If we add in verses that may not direct violence, but demonstrate hatred or viciousness towards unbelievers, the Quran shows its true ugly self:

By far the greatest portion, however, over 60% of the text of the Koran, is devoted to polemics against unbelievers, justifications for placing them in submission or killing them, on rewards for those who believe in Allah (especially for those who war against unbelievers), and punishment for unbelievers on earth and in the hereafter.

You are not only WRONG you are ignorant. I HAVE read the Koran and its no more about war then many books of the Old Testament and YES Islam means peace. I semetic langauges like Arabit if the consonants are the same the word has the same root. Like SaLaaM and iSLaM. More specifically it means the peace that comes through submission to God. Which of course is a type of PEACE not a type of submission. Your ignorance and bigotry are just stupid. You condescending to come in and TEACH us things you dont know anything about is precious but only underlines your stupidity it says nothing about us. Did you REALLY have to be told that a Muhajadeen was Islmic? The problems India is having right now are with Pakistan moron. Unless they were Sihks they were going to be Muslims. Try to keep up your uninformed mental midget

Please, read the Koran and the Hadith! Things will make a lot more sense. You will find out that Islam is about war not peace (btw, Islam means submission not peace).

Don’t take my word for it, read these words directly from the Koran (click the link so you don’t think there’s a “context” issue):
9:5
So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Read the Hadith (again, go to the link and see both 176 and 177, check for context issues):
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176:

Allah’s Apostle said, “You (i.e. Muslims) will fight wi the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, ‘O ‘Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.’ ”

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:
Allah’s Apostle said, “The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. “O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.”

These are just two examples…there are a lot more, unfortunately.

Still want to close your eyes? Read this

MUMBAI: When faced with a volley of gunshots, while sipping coffee at the Oberoi Hotel on Wednesday night, Ali Arpaciouglu, a Turkish citizen on a business trip to Mumbai, chose to escape through the hotel kitchen and down a flight of stairs that opened onto the road outside.

This was probably one of the best decisions he took. On the other hand, his business partner, Meltem Muezzinoglu, and her husband, Seyfi, both Turks, when faced with the same situation, decided to dash out of the restaurant and head upstairs instead. When terrorists laid siege to the hotel, the Muezzinoglus were held hostage….

The Muezzinoglus, however, found themselves in a hostage situation, along with a group of foreigners. That night, they shared a room with three foreigners – all women. Two machine-gun-wielding terrorists stood guard over them the whole night.

All the hostages were asked to reveal their religion. When the Muezzinoglus said they were Muslims, their captors told them that they would not be harmed. The other three Caucasian women were removed from the room next day, and the terrorists informed the Muezzinoglus that they had been shot….

Ibrahim also sent a warning message to Israel by seizing Chabad House in Mumbai, reportedly a haven for right-wing Jewish Orthodox groups and Israeli military “trainers” who pose as backpackers on holiday in Kashmir during their reconnaissance missions. Apparently, the Israelis’ uncouth behavior toward Kashmiri locals, including cheating taxi drivers and lodges, became known to Ibrahim who figured he could also take advantage of his assault on Mumbai to teach the Israelis a couple of lessons. The Israelis are in Kashmir to train Indians on their side of the India-Pakistan Kashmiri Line of Control. The Israelis maintain a military training facility, known as the Ibex Center, outside of Leh, the capital of Ladakh. There, the Israelis train Tibetan exiles and local Buddhist soldiers who serve in the Ladakh Scouts, the mountain commandos who patrol the Indian side of the Line of Control and the Siachen Glacier. Also trained by the Israelis is the “Tibetan Army,” the Indian Army unit also known as the Special Frontier Force. The training takes place at the Mussorie parajump base in northern India. Kashmiri separatists claim Israeli trainers have served with Tibetan commandos in putting down insurgencies in Assam and Manipur in northeastern India.

The Israelis began operating out of Chabad House after receiving a contract in 1996, a year after a group of Western tourists were captured by militants in Kashmir. A Norwegian was beheaded in the incident. The attack was condemned by every mujahedin group in Kashmir and Pakistan. Some blamed Israelis for the kidnapping of the Westerners in exchange for the security contract and the use of Indian Air Force bases in Jammu, part of the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir. The Jammu bases are within a 20-minute striking range of Pakistan’s nuclear facilities and missile bases. Pakistani ISI alleges that Israeli fighter bombers as the Jammu bases are disguised with false Indian markings and are armed with nuclear weapons.

WMR’s Asian intelligence sources report that Chabad Houses are fronts for Israeli military intelligence and Mafia activities in other Asian cities. In Bangkok, Israeli military pilots and drivers who stay at the Chabad House there train Thai Army commandos, divers, and pilots who are fighting a Muslim secessionist movement along the southern border with Malaysia. Bangkok police have long suspected Chabad House as a center for the Israeli Mafia, which runs its Ecstasy and Ice trade from Bangkok for all of Southeast and East Asia. The Israeli Mafia also reportedly runs heroin labs in Myanmar, where an Israeli military officer serves in Myanmar’s feared military counter-intelligence agency.

SOURCE – http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/

WMR’s Asian intelligence sources have provided additional information on the wave of terrorist attacks in Mumbai. Under pressure from Washington, this past May Pakistan’s Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gillani cut a secret deal with the United States and India to turn over to Delhi a number of residents of Pakistan wanted by India for terrorism. One of those included in the deal was the CIA’s erstwhile asset, Mumbai-born Dawood Ibrahim, a veteran of CIA operations in Afghanistan during the mujaheddin war against the Soviets.

Ibrahim, according to our sources, has been under the protection of Pakistan’s Inter Service Intelligence (ISI) intelligence agency since June. He is being protected in Quetta, near the Waziristan tribal region. The CIA is fearful that if Ibrahim is deported to India, RAW and Russia’s Vladimir Putin will obtain the entire dossier on the CIA’s sponsorship of criminal activities and terrorist attacks. ISI would prefer Ibrahim to move to the United Arab Emirates, perhaps Dubai, where he has extensive financial interests. Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari is a business rival of Ibrahim and the ISI would like Ibrahim to be at a distance from Pakistan’s president and “settle scores” with his old “allies” and new enemies in Langley from outside Pakistani territory.

Ibrahim is reportedly using his gangland “muscle” in India to send a clear message to Delhi and Washington that he is a force to be reckoned with……..

SOURCE – http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/