Individual democrats have occasionally been caught enriching themselves, or their families – but at no time have democrats ever been caught at institutionalized criminality such as the republicans, and Watergate, Iran/Contra, or the depredations of the Bush administration’s, “War on Terror.”

November 29th, 2008 at 9:11 am
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As I told Fred, I make no defense for the misdeeds of the right. I simply responded to this post:

Fred Says:
——————————————————————————–

Witch1 Says:
Isn’t it about time we stop treating our own like they are troll’s just because they offer up a diffrent opinion…”

upright left Says:
And how many times does this question have to be posed by a lib before you all acknowledge that the far left is just like the far right in that regard? ;)

I’m personally tired of the so called progressives who supported 3rd party nader in 2000. They threw the baby out with the bathwater.

I’m tired of the chicken little doomdayers like kay and freeman and tokin liberal who claim to be progressives yet disparage every person who comes to power, this time before they even take office. You know the ones who said Clinton and Gore were a disaster and voted for nader……

I’m tired of them saying democrats are just like republicans. They are not.

November 28th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
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Some of Obama’s appointments have associations that some libs find troubling, and truth be told, that most would have used to slam a conservative. Now that it is a Dem making those appointments, those who are critical are no longer following the accepted line and are being slammed for their dissent. Most, if not all, politicians have connections to corporations and lobbyists, some more than others. That was the point of the comment that politicians are politicians. Now, those with such connections are being excused by libs because Obama needs experienced people. I’m not criticizing Obama. I think he has made good choices. I understand that it is how it is and he has to work with it. The problem is the hypocrisy of falsely claiming to accept dissent and slamming the other party for something you are willing to accept in your own

Fred, I have no desire to compare the corruption of the left and the right. Individual corruption or a group effort, I find it all disgusting. You are correct that the far right tends to be greedy. Unfortunately, you are wrong about Dems always being “for the average guy.” Sometimes they are just out for themselves and the average guy is a means to an end.

The far right also seems to think the Constitution (and international treaties)can be abrogated at a whim, something that doesn’t have a democratic parallel.

Watergate. Iran/Contra. Invasion of a sovereign nation. Torture and humiliation of captured prisoners. All, acts sanctioned, and carried out by conservatives.

You’d have to go back to the Bay of Pigs for a parallel, and even that one was never carried out.

It’s a false equivalence you offer.

Individual democrats have occasionally been caught enriching themselves, or their families – but at no time have democrats ever been caught at institutionalized criminality such as the republicans, and Watergate, Iran/Contra, or the depredations of the Bush administration’s, “War on Terror.”

“So Democratic audiences are often surprised when I tell them that I don’t consider George Bush a bad man, and that I assume he and members of his Administration are trying to do what they think is best for the country.”

Barack Obama

My defense of those who criticize Obama’s selections doesn’t mean that I disapprove of them. I voted for Obama, even though I disagree with him on some issues, and I think he has made good choices in his appointments. You are absolutely right that those who are criticizing aren’t going to change anything. That’s not their point. The point is that this is a liberal site, yet liberals are suddenly turning on those with whom they agree on almost everything simply because they express their disagreement with Obama’s appointments. It’s the hypocrisy of saying that the right is all about suppressing dissent and following along while the left encourages debate. Telling those who disagree with you about the appointments to STFU is hardly considered debate or being tolerant.

AlexLawyer Says:
Bill Clinton’s administration invented “extraordinary rendition,” more prosaically known as kidnapping, forced disappearance, conspiracy to violate human rights and torture by proxy.

Just a statement…..means nothing without facts. You could be just any liar that you might mean on the street. Got a credible link or any facts to back this up? I didn’t think so.

So, at this point, I see you as being supportive of something we all agree we want and need…..to move forward, or you were never on board for that and want something that is not realistically possible at the present time, just like you did when you said dems and reps are the same in 2000 and supported nader……I have not forgiven you for that.

So you guys just go ahead and nit pick and pretend that nothing has changed while Obama moves us forward despite the crybabies that have obviously forgotten what we just went through and were we are as a result of it.

Social security, minimum wage, unions, public schools, civil rights……I’m a little angry right now so I can’t think of any more at the moment but they are there…..FDA, EPA, etc. these all came from the left……not the right.

The whole world gained from our progressive actions until the right gets power and undermines it once again.

Barak Obama has shown himself to be a man of true vision, a real leader. I know many of you have never really experienced that……bush certainly was no example, but Obama has the qualities to move us forward constructivly.

They are now paying the price….again I might add for the same damage that they did under hoover and raygun/bush just for two examples…..do I need to include todays economy ushered in by bush’s tax cuts and deregulation that was touted to be bringing us an era of prosperity……I’m still waiting.

The right is a thugary, plain and simple. Their motives are not for the good of the country. It is based entirely on greed and class warfare.

Bottom line. Don’t try to compare corruption of the left with that of the right. You will lose if you want to make it seem like the left is as bad as the right.

There is of course a very good and logical reason for that. The right is about individual greed and exclusion of those that don’t belong to the club.

The left is the opposition, always sticking up for the true average American…..sorry ma’am, just the facts. Does the left fail to live up to that legacy…..obviously it does at times.

upright left Says:
Politicians are politicians and partisans are partisans. Corruption didn’t begin with the modern conservative movement and it won’t end with it.

The moderate flag is a false one. We are all moderates unless we are extremists….

The kind of corruption we are seeing now is not new and it belongs to the right exclusivly. It happens every time they obtain the power to influence our economy.

Bill Clinton’s administration invented “extraordinary rendition,” more prosaically known as kidnapping, forced disappearance, conspiracy to violate human rights and torture by proxy.

Any investigation, and subsequent prosecutions, cannot rely on a de facto statute of limitations for offenses prior to 20 January 2001, so Obama will scuttle the whole concepts of rule of law, accountability and respect for human rights. While he might halt the outrages, he will neither regain the respect of the world and the tolerance of our potential enemies by prosecuting the guilty, nor deter future wrongdoing.

I’m a moderate and I think Obama has made good choices in his appointments. You can’t deny the connections that they have, however. Those who disagree with the appointments on those grounds are only doing the same things liberals have done the last eight years. Only now the shoe is on the other foot, so you are willing to overlook those issues. With the loss of a common enemy, your differences appear and tolerance, even for other libs, falls by the wayside. (Hence, repeated lib pleas to stop “acting like the right wing trolls.”) People are slamming those with whom they agree on virtually everything, simply because of a disagreement on one issue.

Very well said. It is the way of things. Revolutions eat their own children first. It has always been so.

Witch1 Says:
Isn’t it about time we stop treating our own like they are troll’s just because they offer up a diffrent opinion…”

upright left Says:
And how many times does this question have to be posed by a lib before you all acknowledge that the far left is just like the far right in that regard? ;)

I’m personally tired of the so called progressives who supported 3rd party nader in 2000. They threw the baby out with the bathwater.

I’m tired of the chicken little doomdayers like kay and freeman and tokin liberal who claim to be progressives yet disparage every person who comes to power, this time before they even take office. You know the ones who said Clinton and Gore were a disaster and voted for nader……

I’m tired of them saying democrats are just like republicans. They are not.

November 28th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
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Politicians are politicians and partisans are partisans. Corruption didn’t begin with the modern conservative movement and it won’t end with it.

I’m a moderate and I think Obama has made good choices in his appointments. You can’t deny the connections that they have, however. Those who disagree with the appointments on those grounds are only doing the same things liberals have done the last eight years. Only now the shoe is on the other foot, so you are willing to overlook those issues. With the loss of a common enemy, your differences appear and tolerance, even for other libs, falls by the wayside. (Hence, repeated lib pleas to stop “acting like the right wing trolls.”) People are slamming those with whom they agree on virtually everything, simply because of a disagreement on one issue.

I agree completely. I wasn’t arguing in favor of removing any civil liberties, but instead pointing out that complete security can only be obtained at the price of losing said liberties. Perhaps I didn’t put it as clearly as Mr. Franklin, but the idea is still the same.

But my point remains: it’s way too easy to obtain weapons in the USA. Which I don’t like since it also makes it too easy for those weapons to cross the border into my own country, ending up in the hands of criminals, so you could say I’m being a bit selfish in my argumentation.

hussein toasterhead Says:
This would seem to make it impossible for any current sitting Senator to take any Cabinet post, since salaries were last raised in 2007.

Something seriously rotten about this whole notion……I don’t believe it.

November 28th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
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This would seem to make it impossible for any current sitting Senator to take any Cabinet post, since salaries were last raised in 2007.

Oh, well. I guess Hillary’s going to stay in the Senate for a bit, unless they try and argue that the Secretary of State is a Foreign Service post rather than a Civil Service post. Though that’d be quite a tortured loophole.