Kristol Calls On Bush To Pardon Torturers And Wiretappers, Reward Them With Medal Of Freedom
Kristol Calls On Bush To Pardon Torturers And Wiretappers, Reward Them With Medal Of Freedom
In his new Weekly Standard column, right-wing pundit Bill Kristol lays out a to-do list for President Bush before he leaves office. He urges Bush to deliver speeches “reminding Americans of our successes fighting the war on terror.” Kristol dreams, “Over time, Bush might even get deserved credit for effective conduct of the war on terror.”
After urging Bush to fight the incoming administration’s desire to close Guantanamo, Kristol concludes with this:
One last thing: Bush should consider pardoning–and should at least be vociferously praising–everyone who served in good faith in the war on terror, but whose deeds may now be susceptible to demagogic or politically inspired prosecution by some seeking to score political points. The lawyers can work out if such general or specific preemptive pardons are possible; it may be that the best Bush can or should do is to warn publicly against any such harassment or prosecution. But the idea is this: The CIA agents who waterboarded Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, and the NSA officials who listened in on phone calls from Pakistan, should not have to worry about legal bills or public defamation. In fact, Bush might want to give some of these public servants the Medal of Freedom at the same time he bestows the honor on Generals Petraeus and Odierno. They deserve it.
In the Bush era, the Medal of Freedom has come to absurdly represent a reward for those who carried out policy failures at the urging of the Bush administration. By this standard, the implementers of torture and warrantless wiretapping certainly qualify for such a medal.
The Wall Street Journal reported recently that the White House “isn’t inclined to grant sweeping pardons for former administration officials involved in harsh interrogations and detentions of terror suspects.” President-elect Barack Obama is reportedly unlikely to pursue criminal cases against such officials, but is said to be considering a 9/11-style commission that would investigate counterterrorism policies and make public as many details as possible.”
Bush’s “record of stonewalling inquiries into his administration’s legally questionable behavior — the torture policy that led to the Abu Ghraib nightmare; illegal wiretapping; the politically motivated firing of federal attorneys — justify concern that he may be considering pardoning officials involved in those misdeeds,” the New York Times warns in an editorial this morning. “If he wants to try to reclaim his reputation, he can start by not abusing the pardon power on his way out the door,” the Times writes.
Topic Cloud
ArchivesBlog Roll
Kristol-so wrong on so many levels
November 29th, 2008 at 10:08 amI’m simply dumbfounded that this man continues to be given credence of any sort.
Even more dumbfounding is how our country ever produced such a disastrous ideology as neoconservatism.
November 29th, 2008 at 10:21 amBloody Billie Kristol has never been right about anything, for any reason, at anytime. Why does his fantasy wish even get any space in the media. If there is anyone who should be tortured in this country, this worthless, chickensh*t, chickenhawk, warmongering, coward should be tarred and feathered and shipped out of the USA to Iraq to live in his dream world. Go to hell Billie.
November 29th, 2008 at 10:22 amI fail to understand exactly why the media continue to ask him his opinion- never mind “facts”. Do you suppose they just keep him around for the entertainment value of pissing everybody else off?
November 29th, 2008 at 10:24 amThe president does not have the constitutional authority to remove his own constitutional responsibilities. He must take care that the laws be faithfully executed. He cannot, therefore, pardon all those who violated the law on his orders, because that would not be taking care that the laws be faithfully executed.
November 29th, 2008 at 10:24 amBill Kristol is a disgusting little freak. If he was deployed to Iraq, he would soil his uniform before the plane delivering him had landed.
November 29th, 2008 at 10:26 amThere are so many things I want to say about this and so many other issues that we have been collectively slapped in the face about for eight long years. Kristol will spend long days in the hottest of heat for eternity.
The best I can say is that we have only 53 more days of this assault on humanity.
Now we need to work on bringing the elite down. And I mean bring them down. One by one. Starting with Rush Limbaugh. One of his prominent advertisers is HOMEDICS. BOYCOTT HOMEDICS.
You bring them down by not buying what they are selling. It is the only thing they understand. Start doing your research and then pass the word along to families and friends.
November 29th, 2008 at 10:30 amAs Kristol continues to fantasize about a more conservative America, his words only show just how out of touch he is and how far out on the fringe he and all others of the same stripe really are. It should be interesting hearing him spend the next 8 years criticizing Obama’s efforts to fix George Bush’s very Republican mess.
November 29th, 2008 at 10:30 amEven if these people are pardoned, including Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rove, I hope that they will spend the rest of their lives looking over their shoulders in fear. This is one case where justice may have to be served outside of the courts. Am I calling for vigilante justice? I just know that if I had a loved one killed or wounded in Iraq or was a family member of a torture victim my goal would be retribution.
Our job as progressives should be to never forget, publicize the names of those involved, keep track of their whereabouts and harass them till they die. We can only begin to reclaim our national soul by showing we don’t tolerate these actions.
November 29th, 2008 at 10:36 amAnd once again Bill Kristol inflames the masses with his headline-grabbing rhetoric.
Relax, folks. It’s only designed to sell more papers, garner more viewers on the talk shows, increase his salary and bonus.
Don’t waste any time on emails, phone calls or letters. Nobody in the media gives a damn.
November 29th, 2008 at 10:36 amOne last thing: Bush should consider pardoning–and should at least be vociferously praising–everyone who served in good faith in the war on terror, but whose deeds may now be susceptible to demagogic or politically inspired prosecution by some seeking to score political points.
OR, Bill, they might be seeking to follow the law and the Constitution, something you and your friends at PNAC thought an impediment to your plans for world domination of oil.
November 29th, 2008 at 10:46 amBush will NOT pardon anyone for “torturing” as there never was any “torturing.” It was enhanced interogation techniques and it was supposedly all legal, so why would anyone need a pardon for it.
Obama could totally screw those plans up by pardoning those he feels have committed acts that were unlawful. That would set the stage for invetigations.
I Plead with Obama to pardon those who have tortured. It draws the line in the sand for future generations.
November 29th, 2008 at 10:53 amI Plead with Obama to pardon those who have tortured. It draws the line in the sand for future generations.
So line in the sand is that it is ok to torture because you will be pardoned if you do torture?
November 29th, 2008 at 11:06 amWho says Kristol gets a say?? Nay, nay, go away, Bill, and stay.
November 29th, 2008 at 11:16 amAs others have stated, Bush will not, in fact CANNOT, pardon any of these people because they were acting on his orders, therefore (in his mind) not acting illegally, therefore not needing of a pardon. By issuing pardons, he would admit guilt. He is just following in the footsteps of Richard Nixon who truly believed it when he said, “If the President does it, it is not illegal.”
Won’t it be nice to have someone with morals and ethics leading the nation again?
November 29th, 2008 at 11:19 am# 5. When did a law – any law – stop the Failure-in-Chief?
November 29th, 2008 at 11:21 amBush has a problem. Blanket pardons for torture and illegal surveillance would (1) call attention to massive criminality and (2) get perpetrators off the hook so that they might testify freely to a truth commission, if one is set up.
November 29th, 2008 at 11:28 amBastard should be deported.
November 29th, 2008 at 11:30 amSounds like Kristol is hoping to bury history once Bush leaves office, since most of the terrible decisions made by the Bush Administration were advocated by Kristol.
Now the fallout from those decisions are not aging well. They are getting uglier with the passage of time and Kristol realizes that the moment where he can say “I told you so”, is never going to come.
Now he is hoping the President might perform some sort of ceremony that will cauterize the wound, so that Kristol can feel some empty sense of vindication.
And then he can move on to new bad ideas.
November 29th, 2008 at 11:30 amCurlew,
You have a point where this president and the law are concerned. Actually, the law itself doesn’t stop anybody from violating it. What stops them is the fear of facing punishment for violating that law. The Republicans, who have always put loyalty to their own party above loyalty to their country or to their constitutional oaths, would never have impeached Bush and Cheney for their transgressions. And once Pelosi said impeachment was “off the table”, Bush and Cheney knew that they would never be held accountable for their illegal actions. (And, please, I don’t want to hear anyone claim that Bush and Cheney haven’t broken the law, especially with the lame-ass excuse that the proof is that they haven’t been prosecuted for doing so.)
If Bush and Cheney are never made to feel they have to obey the law, they won’t. That’s what separates them from good Americans like us. :)
November 29th, 2008 at 11:31 amReward criminals with medals. Allow a war criminal president to do as he pleases and stay in power for two long terms. Tune into Faux for news and football. Ah! and don’t forget to rush to WalMart on black friday to get your flat screen TV at half-price. As soon as they open the doors run and trample those who stand in your way, crush them to DEATH!
Who would have imagined how shameful it feels to be an american in Bush’s America!
November 29th, 2008 at 11:32 amHe urges Bush to deliver speeches “reminding Americans of our successes fighting the war on terror.”
Let’s see now…(remembering that the GWOT was officially initiated after 9-11)… successes?
The “shoe bomber”? Oh wait, he was caught by a flight attendant.
The Anthrax attacks? Accused the wrong guy, zero progress.
The “Florida Five”? The FBI had to materially encouraged their fantasies before they could arrest them for…well, being a threat to themselves I guess.
The “Brooklyn Bozo” who ‘planned’ to cut through Brooklyn Bridge cables with an oxyacetylene torch?
The “Beirut Bozos” who openly discussed blowing up a New Jersey jet fuel line?
The ‘New Jersey NumbNutz’? Four guys who ‘planned’ to break into an army base and use their weapons against them?
The British/Pakistani Al Qaeda computer mole whose cover the US blew just to score some domestic political points?
Virginia Tech? Oh right, that wasn’t terrorism, that was just another school shooting—it happens all the time.No need to consider freezing the NRA’s assets.
Jose Padilla? A former CIA contractor who had likked on their behalf, but was convicted for not having a dirty bomb ( in the same way that Iraq was invaded for not having WMDs).
Hamdan? Deported after 6 (?) years of imprisonment and torture.
The Uighurs? Declared innocent after 6 years, still in Gitmo.
Various Brtish citizens? Deported out of Gitmo to the UK, after 4/5 years.
Feasible US terror plots thwarted? None.
Feasible foreign soil attacks thwarted by US? None
Increase in global terror attacks? Several hundred percent.
Bin Laden captured? No.
Successes, Bill? Name one.
November 29th, 2008 at 11:39 am.
Dear Bill Kristol,
If the TWAT was successfully prosecuted, why the need of pardons for people who violated international laws governing conduct…
… IF it was really successful, NO?
What kind of society rewards people who violate international laws with the Medal of Freedom?
.
November 29th, 2008 at 11:42 amIt appears the two administrations are playing chicken with the issue of torture.
Bush thinks he’s got the democrats stymied, because he won’t pardon, and they seemingly won’t indict the persons responsible for ordering and carrying out torture. Obama’s suggesting he won’t prosecute, puts them on a much shorter track for indictment in The Hague, as one of the prerequisites in the international court is the offending nation’s leadership’s refusal to hold Geneva Convention offenders responsible for their acts.
November 29th, 2008 at 11:46 amKristol doesn’t really get it, does he. If Bush pardons those people, even though they haven’t been convicted of a crime, he will be admitting that they committed a crime.
I am not buying that Obama is going to let them get away with the crimes that have been committed. I think Obama is just pragmatic enough to not announce his plans, especially before he gets an urgent stimulus plan passed. Once he starts going after the Bush Crime Family, dealing with the Republicans is going to be very difficult.
November 29th, 2008 at 11:47 amWhat kind of society rewards people who violate international laws with the Medal of Freedom?
An Orwellian Society??
November 29th, 2008 at 11:47 amchimpy will use the preemptive empty pardon.
chimpy should realize when preemptive strategy is use, he should be absolutely sure of what will happen afterwards will be a benefit.
Preemptive doesn’t work for chimpy because he is shortsighted. he can’t see beyond.
I also agree with the posters, if he did nothing wrong, then why pardon.
November 29th, 2008 at 11:49 am5th Estate Says:
Feasible US terror plots thwarted? None.
Feasible foreign soil attacks thwarted by US? None
Increase in global terror attacks? Several hundred percent.
Bin Laden captured? No.
Successes, Bill? Name one.
Good list, but you forgot one. Thousands of new terrorists created by all the death and destruction wrought by GWB.
November 29th, 2008 at 11:49 amI’m curious. Has any President ever used a “preemptive pardon”? It seems to me it would not be legal. It seems to me that pardon applies to people who have committed a crime. We can’t determine if someone has committed a crime unless they have been tried and found guilty.
November 29th, 2008 at 11:52 ambarfly Says:
It appears the two administrations are playing chicken with the issue of torture.
Except that Obama has NOT said he will not prosecute the Bush Crime Family for crimes they have committed. All we have to go on is rumors of so-called “aides” saying that he won’t prosecute. Until I hear it come out of Obama’s mouth, I am not going to assume that he will ignore their crimes.
November 29th, 2008 at 11:54 amDoes not Ford’s Nixon pardon fit the description of “preemptive pardon”?
November 29th, 2008 at 11:58 amWhy would Bush be concerned with the Legality of a Preemptive Pardon??
He launched a Preemptive WAR on a Sovereign Country.
November 29th, 2008 at 11:58 amUntil I hear it come out of Obama’s mouth, I am not going to assume that he will ignore their crimes.
As with the notion that Bush WON’T pardon them.
This is just Kristol, filling the Coulter Void, left when her orifice was nailed shut. I expect even nuttier things to emerge before Obama takes office.
November 29th, 2008 at 11:58 amBadger Says:
Why would Bush be concerned with the Legality of a Preemptive Pardon??
I agree. The only logical reason he’d have to wait would be possible political damage done to House and Senate republicans — and he’s already been there, and done that.
November 29th, 2008 at 12:04 pmOne last thing: Bush should consider pardoning–and should at least be vociferously praising–everyone who served in good faith in the war on terror,
Served who, Bill? The president or the country? This is one of the things you neo-cons do that infuriates us – you equate loyally serving the president with loyally serving the country. You keep ignoring the fact that Bush was never loyally serving the country!
November 29th, 2008 at 12:11 pmOver at Harper’s, Scott Horton lays out the case for prosecuting the Bush adminstration (subscription required, but having someone lay out the case clearly does my heart good, so it’s worth it).
First, Horton notes how we cannot simply walk away from BushCo’s lawbreaking and move on, because BushCo didn’t simply break some laws like his predecessors. They waged war on law itself.
http://www.docudharma.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=10435
November 29th, 2008 at 12:17 pm[From... who knows where - I found it on Raw Story - from Politico - from Huffpo]:
Report: Matthews staffing for Senate run UPDATE
The long-running rumor that Chris Matthews will make a run for the Pennsylvania Senate seat in 2010 hit a new level today, as FiveThirtyEight’s Sean Quinn reports that Matthews is staffing up. (h/t HuffPost).
FiveThirtyEight has been hearing for some time that Matthews is serious about running for the United States Senate, but it took a trip to Georgia among the Georgia-runoff-congregated and well-connected Obama organizer throng to confirm.
According to multiple sources, who confirmed the Tip O’Neill staffer-cum-MSNBC host has negotiated with veteran Obama staffers to enlist in his campaign, Chris Matthews is likely to run for United States Senate in Pennsylvania in 2010. Matthews, 62, would run as a Democrat. Arlen Specter, the aging Republican incumbent, will be 80 if he chooses to run for re-election.
After first posting, FiveThirtyEight founder and polling guru Nate Silver updated with a more cautious headline and text. The first version read, “Chris Matthews is in.” It was updated to, “Chris Matthews, it appears, is in.”
Silver wrote in the update: “Matthews, we have strong reason to believe, is hiring staff for a run at the Senate, although there have certainly been candidates in the past who have staffed up but subsequently elected not to run.”
UPDATE: Through a spokesperson, Matthews gave the following statement to Politico about the FiveThirtyEight report: “It is absolutely not true.”
That recent polling smack-down must have frightened away his prospective cigar-chompin’ back-room boys.
Heh… heh… heh…
November 29th, 2008 at 12:19 pmkaty Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation.
seriously, TP… “an al ysis”… fix that… please.
i am reading this article:
Justice after Bush:
Prosecuting an outlaw administration
By Scott Horton
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2008/12/0082303
(sorry, subscription only – i bought for train ride)
“[…]
Given the political situation in the United States, it seems clear that the last option [COMMISSION OF INQUIRY] is the best. […] Such investigations have had a mixed record of success, but they are the best means available to the U.S. political system for investigating issues that raise broad public concern but cannot be satisfactorily delved into by such established bodies as the FBI or a congressional oversight committee.
Investigative commissions can provide truth. They can establish an important record. They can reaffirm important taboos. But they cannot provide justice. For that they are simply a fist step. The second step […] is a formal prosecution, most likely by an executive-appointed special prosecutor. In this model […] the commission would find the facts, weigh them, and, if the facts warrant, make a formal recommendation for the appointment of a prosecutor […]. Even if the commission were to determine that no prosecutable crimes had occurred […] it would perform the absolutely necessary function of educating the public. If, on the other hand, the commission were to determine that criminal investigation was appropriate, it already would have created essential public support for such action.
From what source would the commission draw its authority? The most obvious place would be the executive branch itself. […] The problem with presidential commissions is that they can easliy be accused of covering up for previous administrations or, conversely, of seeking “victor’s justice”.
The alternative is a hybrid – an executive-legislative commission that would be created by an act of Congress but would draw also on the authority of the president. This alternative typically involves an elaborate process for the appointment of commissioners by both the White House and the congressional leadership. [example is 9/11 Commission] […] In general, the presidential commission seems a smoother, less legally problematic model, whereas the hybrid commission is cumbersome but more likely to command broad public support and confidence from the outset.
[…]”
that’s as far as i got – my amtrak route is bumpy and jolty…
hoping to find the article with google search, found this:
Wednesday November 26, 2008, 8:32 am
November 29th, 2008 at 12:20 pmFor an earlier an- alysis of these issues, read Elaine Scarry’s “Presidential Crimes,” published in Boston Review in September. I believe it’s a precursor to Horton’s piece, which further develops the legal argument against the Bush administration.
http://bostonreview.net/BR33.5/scarry.php
http://www.care2.com/news/member/321758002/951908
Jewish people, I love you, you know I do, but would you please produce no more assclowns like that one.
¶ AIO
November 29th, 2008 at 12:23 pmBilbo Hussein Baggins Says:
I’m curious. Has any President ever used a “preemptive pardon”?
besides nixon, one i remember hearing as example is carter pardoning the draft and war evaders
November 29th, 2008 at 12:32 pmKaty #s 38 &40:
Thank’s for the lengthy updates; but you need to ask yourself What is Obama and his Justice Dept. going to do about it?
As John Turley implies, I suspect nothing.
¶ AIO
November 29th, 2008 at 12:33 pmsounds like another pearl. Just can’t get enough of Kristol.
“There’s been a certain amount of pop sociology in America … that the Shia can’t get along with the Sunni and the Shia in Iraq just want to establish some kind of Islamic fundamentalist regime. There’s almost no evidence of that at all. Iraq’s always been very secular.”
November 29th, 2008 at 12:39 pmcontd:
“[...] And through it all, as if to underscore its contempt for any authority but its own, the administration issued more than a hundred carefully crafted “signing statements” that raised pervasive doubt about whether the president would even accede to bills that he himself had signed into law.
No prior administration as been so systematically or so brazenly lawless. Yet it is no simple matter ro prosecute a former president of his senior officers. There is no precedent for such a prosecution, and even if there was, the very breadth and audacity of the administration’s activities would make the process so complex as to defy systems of justice far less fragmented than our own. But that only means choices must be made. Indeed, in weighing the enormity of the administration’s transgressions against the realistic prospect of justice, it is possible to determine not only the crime that calls most clearly for prosecution but also the crime that is most likely to be successfully prosecuted. In both cases, that crime is torture.
There can be no doubt that torture is illegal. [...]“
November 29th, 2008 at 12:40 pmalpha – looks like it’s up to US to put the pressure on OBAMA…
that’s how the 9/11 commission came about – pressure from the families and the public.
i think i remember turley stating that also…
November 29th, 2008 at 12:42 pmchimpy can’t control the import trade with China. If chimpy can’t protect us from lead base toys and baby formula, how in the hell can he protect us from a nuke?
November 29th, 2008 at 12:44 pmI’m amazed the NY Times didn’t publish this first. Kristol fails upwards: Why shouldn’t anyone else in the Bush administration, the place where the Peter Principle went to die?
Bush can’t even fill out a census form correctly.
November 29th, 2008 at 12:54 pm“If he wants to try to reclaim his reputation, he can start by not abusing the pardon power on his way out the door,”
The only way boooosh can get a good legacy is if he uses a 357 magnum on his right temple while Deadyeye dick is standing on his left, and it take shim out too.
As long as Kristol keeps reminding people that torture has happened, all balls are still in the air.
November 29th, 2008 at 1:13 pmProving once again there is no level of moral depravity Kristol will not celebrate. No evil he will not call good, no stench he will not tell us smells sweet the man is a charicature of what a human being can become. I pity him
November 29th, 2008 at 1:22 pm# 46: katy-
Turley stated it either on Rachel or Keith’s show.
I think that he can read the tea leaves.
¶ AIO
November 29th, 2008 at 1:27 pmKristol feels so strongly about rewarding a medal to those who tortured and spyed on people, maybe when these guys are charged with War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity Kristol will do the time in jail for them. Now if the terrorist were to kidnap Kristol and torture/rape him I wonder would he want the new President to give them a medal for their conduct.
November 29th, 2008 at 1:27 pmBill’s latest clinker tells us a lot about the right-wing mind.
In Wingutstan, it’s OK to torture people–so long as you do it in “good faith.” How’s that for a scary glimpse into conservative ethical thinking?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w12edTq2v7A
November 29th, 2008 at 1:29 pmU.S. Constitution – Article II, Section 2
The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to Grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.
Bush cannot pardon anyone involved in these issues without it being a flat admission of “offenses against the United States.” A “preemptive pardon” would also be an admission of guilt, not that I think there’s any such thing. Ford’s pardon of Nixon as well as Carter’s pardon for war resisters were based on the guilt of all parties. The only thing “preemptive” about them is that none were actually convicted of such crimes, but certainly would have been without such pardons.
November 29th, 2008 at 1:34 pmRe: He urges Bush to deliver speeches “reminding Americans of our successes fighting the war on terror.”
Gee…where has Kristol been? Bush has been doing this since 2003 and it hasn’t made a damned bit of difference in the opinions on the “war.”
Just the fact that Bush constantly had to try and sell this war to the people in this country and around the world is a direct indication that he didn’t have solid proof of Iraq’s threat to the U.S.’s interests or those of Iraq’s neighbors.
November 29th, 2008 at 1:49 pmimpeachcheneythenbush Says:
Well said, ICTB!
November 29th, 2008 at 1:50 pmOn a somewhat related note, does everyone recall the recent interview of Bush by CNN, on Veterans’ Day?
I thought this merits special mention: when asked about a proud moment in his presidency, Bush can’t even come up with any single policy from his administration. Sad.
November 29th, 2008 at 1:52 pmKristol is doing his damndest to kill off the last potential shreds of credibility the right may have ever had. Sometimes I wonder if he’s really a left-wing plant.
November 29th, 2008 at 2:01 pmWhats most interesting is his tacit acknowledgement that yes, these people did commit crimes..why else would they need a pardon? But hey, I mean, if they committed them in “good faith”, thats obviously makes it ok…where was that line in the constitution about it being a discrentionary document?
November 29th, 2008 at 2:11 pmI think this pretty much wraps it up:
On January 2, 2007, progressive political journalist David Corn of The Nation, posted a list of Kristol’s pre-Iraq war statements “about the justification for the war, the costs of the war, the planning for the war, and the consequences of the war.” Corn concluded that “Kristol displayed little judgment or expertise … In an effectively functioning market of opinion-trading, Kristol’s views would be relegated to the bargain basement.”
November 29th, 2008 at 2:16 pmSo we should reward WAR CRIMINALS with a Metal Of Freedom?
How Nazi-like…we are a country without morals or honor.
November 29th, 2008 at 2:18 pmThe Medal of Freedom should be renamed to something else as it has been tainted on more levels that one can count.
November 29th, 2008 at 2:21 pmThis article is probably one of the best and most profound I’ve read in recent years about the torture issue. It’s long, but well worth the read.
The entire structure of Western freedom grew in part out of the searing experience of state-sanctioned torture. The use of torture in Europe’s religious wars of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries is still etched in our communal consciousness, as it should be. Then, governments deployed torture not only to uncover perceived threats to their faith-based autocracies, but also to “save” the victim’s soul. Torturers understood that religious conversion was a difficult thing, because it necessitated a shift in the deepest recesses of the human soul. The only way to reach those depths was to deploy physical terror in the hopes of completely destroying the heretic’s autonomy. They would, in other words, destroy a human being’s soul in order to save it. That is what burning at the stake was–an indescribably agonizing act of torture that could be ended at a moment’s notice if the victim recanted. In a state where theological doctrine always trumped individual liberty, this was a natural tactic.
Indeed, the very concept of Western liberty sprung in part from an understanding that, if the state has the power to reach that deep into a person’s soul and can do that much damage to a human being’s person, then the state has extinguished all oxygen necessary for freedom to survive. That is why, in George Orwell’s totalitarian nightmare, the final ordeal is, of course, torture. Any polity that endorses torture has incorporated into its own DNA a totalitarian mutation. If the point of the U.S. Constitution is the preservation of liberty, the formal incorporation into U.S. law of the state’s right to torture–by legally codifying physical coercion, abuse, and even, in Krauthammer’s case, full-fledged torture of detainees by the CIA–would effectively end the American experiment of a political society based on inalienable human freedom protected not by the good graces of the executive, but by the rule of law.
November 29th, 2008 at 2:45 pmhttp://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=a4e8a176-9c0c-4f26-ae58-8ef750a566b0
>Feasible US terror plots thwarted? None.
Right, this point need to be driven home at every opportunity, and frankly it bothers me greatly that
almost no one on news shows, even left wing commentators, ever brings this up…since 9-11, bush has not stopped ANY viable, feasible attacks against the united states or united states interests. Period. All this garbage about, “we’ve saved lives” is BS…the way these people work, if there were actual plots they’d foiled, they’d be trumpeting them like a baby showing off his poo-ridden diapers to mommy…every “plot” they boasted about stopping were at worst posers with zero operational capability, whose plots were so unreleasistic as to be laughable. Ususally the only “connections” these guys had with the real AQ was thier local FBI informant who was pretending to be a member of AQ..
THe passengers who subdued richard ried have done far more to stop acts of terror against the united states than bush ever did..then again, why would he really want to, 9-11 was the best thing that could happen to the bush agenda…
November 29th, 2008 at 2:46 pmOne last comment from me on this string: the only thing that should be put around the neck of these criminals is a noose.
November 29th, 2008 at 2:47 pmSuccesses, Bill? Name one.
I’m reaching here, but perhaps he managed to completely read My Pet Goat?
November 29th, 2008 at 2:48 pmVampire Kristol is on drugs. He calls Bush to pardon torturers and wiretappers and reward them with Medal of Freedom? True journalism needs to be restored and neocons and clowns like Kristol needs to be put out of business.
November 29th, 2008 at 3:12 pmThe Medal of Freedom should be retired. It has been given to too many degenerates.
November 29th, 2008 at 3:28 pmToo bad this guy gets a soapbox to climb on and make an A$$ out of himself. Can’t say the U.S. never tortured prisoners in the past but this is the first time I’ve heard it be part of national/international policy. George Washington decided not to torture like the enemy at the time was doing and it has served us well. It is only fanatics who need to take freedoms like this away.
November 29th, 2008 at 3:51 pmAccording to our sixteen intelligence agencies, the invasion and occupation of Iraq has made us less secure. It is exactly what bin Laden wanted. It will cost us $3 Trillion. Over 4200 American troops have died. Probably over one million Iraqis have died. Five million are refugees. One in eight Iraqi children die before the age of five.
November 29th, 2008 at 4:26 pmKristol would be more at home in Burma.
November 29th, 2008 at 5:12 pmwhen will someone do the world a favor and give bill kristol a colombian necktie? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colombian_necktie
November 29th, 2008 at 5:13 pmEwww, that’s really icky, Bozo.
November 29th, 2008 at 5:31 pmI’d like to reward George Bush with a pile of manure the size of a football field next Tuesday.
November 29th, 2008 at 6:08 pmKristol and Bush are both sh*tstains that should be removed with extra heavy action. They are non-entities going forward.
November 29th, 2008 at 6:24 pmWhy didn’t Thinkprogress criticize Obama when the AP reported 2 weeks ago that torturers are UNLIKELY TO BE PROSECUTED during Obama’s presidency?
See link: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jNJh9ZFMqkoehf9byAYKGnm-EKYQD94GV6202
November 29th, 2008 at 6:56 pmBozo The Neoclown Says:
when will someone do the world a favor and give bill kristol a colombian necktie? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colombian_necktie
Flagged, and I never flag. Idiot.
November 29th, 2008 at 6:57 pmIGNORE KRISTOL!!!
November 29th, 2008 at 7:14 pmWhen it come to WAR CRIMES, International disregard selfpardomning. HAGUE 2009!
November 29th, 2008 at 7:52 pmI meant… ‘When it come to WAR CRIMES, Internatinal Law disregard selfpardomning criminals. Bush can try to pardom himself and all the War Crminals in his immral administration, it will be seen as irrelevant! HAGUE 2009!
November 29th, 2008 at 7:55 pmSadly, that’s just another delusion….
Ain’t no such thing. If you want ‘em to suffer, you gotta start while they’re still breathing…
November 29th, 2008 at 7:58 pmKristol’s ravings rank right up there with Mein Kampf
November 29th, 2008 at 8:30 pmWhy is Kristol never identified as the founder of PNAC, the group that planned and orchestrated the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and controlled our foreign policy for eight years?
November 29th, 2008 at 9:21 pmFor the uninformed:
http://tvnewslies.org/html/pnac_neo-con_artists.html
This guy has been writing and saying whatever he is told for some time.He and roveroolala are paid media acts.Anyone giving them more credit than that is way too distracted.That means these clowns must be successful.
November 29th, 2008 at 9:33 pmThe last 8 years have been one distraction after another provided by the entire bushcon circus crew including these minor acts,
When you pull the loose thread that unwinds all the way to the group that pays for this circus the view become much different.
Who brought this circus to town?
These sideshows provided by cooperating media have prevented (mostly) the masses from any understanding of the world.
Nothing has happened by accident.Nothing has come as a supprise.
Including dickman annointing himself as boss all these cards were already dealt.
Whatever was put in the air and water solidified the paranoia level to a point where fools and clowns with nothing meaningful to say rule the media imaging and content.
Once again let’s ask: can anyone explain the last 8 years and sound even remotely sane?
No need to answer.
No one would put up with this insanity without a gun to their head. Now, who has been holding the gun?
johnkerry, you’re opinion is always so valued—like when you said “it’s f’ing over”, John McCain is our next president!
Just exactly how much of a disaster would Bush have to be before you acknowledged that he was a disaster? There is a Mount Everest of evidence right in front of your eyes that you cannot see.
November 29th, 2008 at 9:58 pmWait a second – didn’t Bush and his cronies assure us and Congress over and over again that the United States does not torture prisoners?
If that’s the case, who’s he going to pardon?
November 29th, 2008 at 10:03 pmHey John Kerry.
November 29th, 2008 at 10:04 pmThis is so weird but I never got around to the soup. I did just take some beer braised brats and oven roasted beets off the heat though. What do you say you stick around for a spell for a change? We’d love to chat with you.
Bush doesn’t need to issue a de jure pardon for his accomplices, because Obama has already issued a de facto pardon. The new president will not pursue war and human rights criminals because that would implicate members of his new team, plus the husband of his secretary of state.
Bill Clinton’s administration invented “extraordinary rendition,” more prosaically known as kidnapping, forced disappearance, conspiracy to violate human rights and torture by proxy.
Any investigation, and subsequent prosecutions, cannot rely on a de facto statute of limitations for offenses prior to 20 January 2001, so Obama will scuttle the whole concepts of rule of law, accountability and respect for human rights. While he might halt the outrages, he will neither regain the respect of the world and the tolerance of our potential enemies by prosecuting the guilty, nor deter future wrongdoing.
November 29th, 2008 at 10:05 pmHey wait a minute!!!
What do they need to be pardoned from?????
The United States doesn’t torture!!!
And even if we did, torture isn’t illegal!!!
That’s not my dog!!!
My dog doesn’t bite!!!
I don’t even own a dog!!!
Just put Bush and Cheney in prison for life with no chance of parol. That will do just fine for me.
November 29th, 2008 at 10:23 pmJohn Kerry troll is the bagdad bob of the bush admin……he’ll cheer em on till the bitter end, never adimitting that they ever did anything wrong.
November 30th, 2008 at 12:59 amKrystolMeth, still wrong 24×7, nonstop, fulltime
November 30th, 2008 at 1:04 amAlexLawyer Says:
A lot of wild speculation with no facts or links to back you up. I call bullshit on ya.
November 30th, 2008 at 1:05 amThese criminals will be punished, even if the international community has to take matters into its own hands.
November 30th, 2008 at 1:21 amDen Hague was created for just this purpose.
I got a great idea JK troll you cowardly punk. Do the world a favor and take a nice swim to Hawaii
November 30th, 2008 at 1:33 amKeep in mind Mr. Kristol may be temporarily insane.
Everything he has done has failed, his movement is discredited, his party is dead, and the whole world is dancing on his grave, so to speak. That can bring you down, especially around Christmastime.
We’re Celebrating Your Demise!
November 30th, 2008 at 6:20 amhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WugcAuQMP1s
southrnbelle Says:
Just put Bush and Cheney in prison for life with no chance of parol. That will do just fine for me.
November 30th, 2008 at 9:41 amI rather see them facing the death squad after convicted of War Crimes!
AlexLawyer Says:
Bush doesn’t need to issue a de jure pardon for his accomplices, because Obama has already issued a de facto pardon. The new president will not pursue war and human rights criminals because that would implicate members of his new team, plus the husband of his secretary of state.
Bill Clinton’s administration invented “extraordinary rendition,” more prosaically known as kidnapping, forced disappearance, conspiracy to violate human rights and torture by proxy.
Any investigation, and subsequent prosecutions, cannot rely on a de facto statute of limitations for offenses prior to 20 January 2001, so Obama will scuttle the whole concepts of rule of law, accountability and respect for human rights. While he might halt the outrages, he will neither regain the respect of the world and the tolerance of our potential enemies by prosecuting the guilty, nor deter future wrongdoing.
Bullshit:
“Both the Reagan and Clinton cases involved apprehending known terrorists abroad, by covert means if necessary. Neither involved handing over detainees to foreign countries. The policy later expanded.”
Alex should go back to law school, and learn to do more in-depth research.
November 30th, 2008 at 9:45 amKeltoi at Night:
what’s the matter, sweetcheeks? i’m only trying to get a pardon and medal of freedom as proposed by billy bob kristol with my suggestion.
November 30th, 2008 at 10:06 amIf we all agree to spend a few cents at the Privacy Center, will it go away?
November 30th, 2008 at 10:25 amIf we all agree to spend a few cents at the Privacy Center, will it go away?
How many other sites does he spam?
It could add up, with a lot of volume. We could all treat his privacy center like it was Black Friday at WalMart…
November 30th, 2008 at 10:32 amjk,
memories, memories:
John Kerry Says:
ZOGBY SATURDAY: Republican John McCain has pulled back within the margin of error… The three-day average holds steady, but McCain outpolled Obama 48% to 47% in Friday, one day, polling. He is beginning to cut into Obama’s lead among independents, is now leading among blue collar voters, has strengthened his lead among investors and among men, and is walloping Obama among NASCAR voters. Joe the Plumber may get his license after all
November 1st, 2008 at 12:35 am Recommend (0) | Report Abuse
*
jk,
always wrong.
always.
:)
November 30th, 2008 at 2:02 pmBush is a war criminal and 911=Inside Job.
This country is pathetic!
December 1st, 2008 at 8:48 am