Former interrogator slams torture: Torture has cost nearly as many lives as 9/11.
Former interrogator slams torture: Torture has cost nearly as many lives as 9/11.
In a Washington Post op-ed today, a former Special Operations interrogator who worked in Iraq in 2006 sharply criticizes American torture techniques as ineffective and dangerous. “Torture and abuse cost American lives,” he writes:
I learned in Iraq that the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Our policy of torture was directly and swiftly recruiting fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq. … It’s no exaggeration to say that at least half of our losses and casualties in that country have come at the hands of foreigners who joined the fray because of our program of detainee abuse. The number of U.S. soldiers who have died because of our torture policy will never be definitively known, but it is fair to say that it is close to the number of lives lost on Sept. 11, 2001. How anyone can say that torture keeps Americans safe is beyond me — unless you don’t count American soldiers as Americans.
The writer, who used a pseudonym for the article, adds that when he switched his team’s techniques to a rapport-building method, they found enormous success. One detainee told the author, “I thought you would torture me, and when you didn’t, I decided that everything I was told about Americans was wrong. That’s why I decided to cooperate.”
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why does this special ops hate our country? why can’t he just drink the kool-aid and accept what lame duck doofus tells him? afterall, dummya is from the “party of life” and “personal responsibility”
November 30th, 2008 at 3:41 pmHow anyone can say that torture keeps Americans safe is beyond me — unless you don’t count American soldiers as Americans.
– - Hey, they volunteered so the chickenhawks can stay safely ensconced in their undisclosed locations.
November 30th, 2008 at 3:42 pm“John Kerry” comes here and spews some crap without actually addressing the content of the TP post and then runs away like the scared little girl that he is. Some things are so predictable, can almost set my watch to it.
November 30th, 2008 at 3:47 pmahhh, what the official is forgetting and what we’ll be reminded of in tomorrw’s press briefing:
“We. Do. Not. Torture. And because we do not torture, none of what he has to say merits any attention because we do not torture.”
November 30th, 2008 at 3:47 pmJohn Kerry Says:
JKTroll is a liar and a fool without a single functioning braincell. Why doesnt TP ban this fool. He DEFINES troll.
November 30th, 2008 at 3:48 pmI totally Agree.
That picture (and the Whole World Knows which Picture I mean) of the Prisoner Standing on a Box with Wires connected to his fingers…
did more to Aid Terrorist Recruitment and Hinder Support from other Nations than anything Bin Laden could have come up with.
November 30th, 2008 at 3:49 pmi understand perfectly john trolly:
It’s called covering yer ass…they did the same thing at nuremberg…remember, i was just following orders.
November 30th, 2008 at 3:51 pmAnother shining example of the W legacy in action. Not content to trash each and every business he ever ran, not content trash the Constitution, Despite his vow to preserve and protect it, not content with trashing the reputation of the United States of America, he’s just Got to do one more act of Insanity! On January 21st he should be shackled and sent to the Hague with our sincerest apologies for letting this happen. At least then, as a nation, We, the People, would be doing the right thing for the world. Come on January 20th and end the term of the Worst President Ever!!!!!
November 30th, 2008 at 3:52 pmImpeach, There’s Still Time!
I think it is important to not lump Abu Grahib and Gitmo together; they are very distinct situations. The latter is policy that you can disagree with; the former resulted in prosecution and prison time for those involved and was never policy.
November 30th, 2008 at 3:52 pmJK: Well, business as usual, huh libs!!
– - Yeah, post everything in bold so it must be true.
November 30th, 2008 at 3:54 pmblue state bob Says:
“John Kerry”…runs away like the scared little girl that he is….
November 30th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
Hey! No being mean to girls! :P
November 30th, 2008 at 3:56 pmKeltoi,
Donald (TAKE THE GLOVES OFF) Rumsfeld was Not prosecuted, and is not in Prison.
I’m not buying the Excuse that this was all the result of Wayward Underlings.
November 30th, 2008 at 3:56 pmThe next problem is Obama and his “pragmatism”. While he’s said he’s against torture, he’s given lip service to redeeming our standing in the world by holding those responsible to account. By his inaction, and that of the spineless DINO’s in Congress, we are assured lawlessness will be a recurring theme in the government.
November 30th, 2008 at 3:56 pmKeltoi at Night Says:
No, that isnt true. If you really believe the scapegoats decided to torture people all by themselves you are being niave. Seymour Hersch’s reporting makes it CLEAR this isnt true. Operation Copper Green came RIGHT OUT OF RUMSFELDS OFFICE. A few low level grunts were thrown under the bus but dont think for ONE SECOND that what happened there wasnt policy. The Red Cross told the White House a YEAR before the scandal broke what has happening at Abu Ghraib. They did NOTHING about it because IT WAS WHAT THEY WANTED. That is the storyline they WANTED the gullible to believe but there is no way to take it seriously.
November 30th, 2008 at 3:57 pmZooey Says:
blue state bob Says:
“John Kerry”…runs away like the scared little girl that he is….
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Do trolls have a gender? JKTroll is a punk nothing more. I am not sure it is even human.
November 30th, 2008 at 3:59 pmKeltoi at Night Says:
yes, i can see how it would just pop into the minds of national guardsmen and women to randomly start torturing people in Abu Grahib…no sir, nothing to see here…just some national guardsmen having some fun. If you believe that, I have some real estate to sell you at 1600 pennsylvania ave. washington, d.c.
November 30th, 2008 at 4:05 pmSy Hersch alleges much, proves little:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_Green
And I stand by my point that Gitmo and Abu Grahib are apples and oranges. I agree there was more to AG than was ever made public, but Gitmo is still open, today. No one will ever be prosecuted for what is happening there. To say the two are exactly the same is just factually inaccurate for that critical reason.
November 30th, 2008 at 4:09 pmKeltoi,
Those “apples and oranges” are all contained in the criminal George W. Bush administration. As usual, you’ve created a distinction without a difference.
November 30th, 2008 at 4:19 pmYeah, no one was tortured at either place right keltoy? You can stand by that if you want……I’m not with ya.
November 30th, 2008 at 4:22 pmJeez, it almost as if Bush WANTED there to be an unending stream of terrorists for him to fight…
November 30th, 2008 at 4:24 pmZooey Says:
Keltoi,
Those “apples and oranges” are all contained in the criminal George W. Bush administration. As usual, you’ve created a distinction without a difference.
Oh, Balderdash, Zooey. EVERYTHING that happened in the last 8 years is all the same? That is silly.
November 30th, 2008 at 4:24 pmKeltoi at Night Says:
Oh, Balderdash, Zooey. EVERYTHING that happened in the last 8 years is all the same? That is silly.
November 30th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
Well, that’s you and your “all or nothing” thinking, isn’t it Keltoi? We start off talking Gitmo & Abu Ghraib and apples & oranges, and since you’ve got NOTHING, you switch over to “EVERYTHING in the last 8 years.”
Nice try.
November 30th, 2008 at 4:32 pm“John Kerry Says:
Well, business as usual, huh libs!!
Another UNIDENTIFIED “former interrogator” making up more lies!
Can’t you libs EVER understand this?????
November 30th, 2008 at 3:44 pm”
=======
Hey John Kerry, why do you use the name ‘John Kerry’?
Is it to remain “UNIDENTIFIED”?
Aren’t you doing exactly what you claim the “former interrogator” is doing?
iamwil
November 30th, 2008 at 4:33 pmJohn Kerry Says:
Well, business as usual, huh libs!!
Another UNIDENTIFIED “former interrogator” making up more lies!
Can’t you libs EVER understand this?????
*
John Kerry Says:
ZOGBY SATURDAY: Republican John McCain has pulled back within the margin of error… The three-day average holds steady, but McCain outpolled Obama 48% to 47% in Friday, one day, polling. He is beginning to cut into Obama’s lead among independents, is now leading among blue collar voters, has strengthened his lead among investors and among men, and is walloping Obama among NASCAR voters. Joe the Plumber may get his license after all
November 1st, 2008 at 12:35 am Recommend (0) | Report Abuse
*
better get wise to yourself first, jk.
eh?
^
November 30th, 2008 at 4:35 pmkeltoi,
still bummed out
about the elections?
think jindal.
:)
November 30th, 2008 at 4:37 pmKeltoi at Night Says:
I think it is important to not lump Abu Grahib and Gitmo together; they are very distinct situations. The latter is policy that you can disagree with; the former resulted in prosecution and prison time for those involved and was never
You are a complete and utter fool if you believe that they prosecuted the people responsible for the crimes at Abu Grahib. Those soldiers were not acting on their own and you know that even though you won’t admit it to yourself. And whether you would like to think it or not, the two are connected. Both are based on the complete and utter disregard for the Geneva Conventions and all that was decent in our country.
I pity you and I pity the people who have to live around you even more.
November 30th, 2008 at 4:41 pmBilbo Hussein Baggins Says:
Keltoi at Night Says:
I think it is important to not lump Abu Grahib and Gitmo together; they are very distinct situations. The latter is policy that you can disagree with; the former resulted in prosecution and prison time for those involved and was never
You are a complete and utter fool if you believe that they prosecuted the people responsible for the crimes at Abu Grahib. Those soldiers were not acting on their own and you know that even though you won’t admit it to yourself. And whether you would like to think it or not, the two are connected. Both are based on the complete and utter disregard for the Geneva Conventions and all that was decent in our country.
I pity you and I pity the people who have to live around you even more.
*
he lives by himself,
in his mother’s cellar.
^
November 30th, 2008 at 4:42 pmHow are they different? People were rounded up and held without charges or lawyers and tortured……just because one of them is still open doen’t mean a damned thing.
Some were tortured by experts and some by amatures…….some died in both places during interrogation……dead is dead.
You start to sound like a torture apologist…..are you?
November 30th, 2008 at 4:43 pmAmazing how many times we progressives can say -
“WE TOLD YOU SO”
Conservatives = wrong most of the time.
Liberals = Right most of the time
This would be like what? The 10,000th time?
November 30th, 2008 at 4:44 pmWow….I am actually pretty surprised that Bilbo, Zooey and others see no distinction at all between AG and Gitmo. I truly am. I think there is something more at work here if you can’t just admit they are different situations. I guess, though, that you see no difference between our management of Abu Grahib and Saddam’s management of it, too, though, right?
Zooey – who is all or nothing here? You can’t admit to the difference between the two? I think I am closer to President Obama on this issue than you are – it is you who are being the absolutist.
Bilbo – I passed along your condolences to the people who have to live with me. They continue to marvel at my patience with snide little hobbits, but a Troll’s gotta do what a Troll’s gotta do.
Joe – Jindal….maybe. Couldn’t hurt relations with India, at the very least.
November 30th, 2008 at 4:48 pmFred Says:
You start to sound like a torture apologist…..are you?
NO. I agree with John McCain, water boarding is torture and should not be allowed.
November 30th, 2008 at 4:49 pmAll Americans should disagree with both situations. The fact that you don’t disqualifies you from a discussion. The days of defending this kind of behavior are over.
These are the blackest of black marks on America. If bush used it to draw terrorists to Iraq to justify him being there, since there were not WMD’s etc. then everyone should agree that he has committed a crime.
November 30th, 2008 at 4:49 pmJohn Kerry Says:
Well, business as usual, huh libs!!
Another UNIDENTIFIED “former interrogator” making up more lies!
It clearly shows you are too f_cking stupid to click a link to read the story, which listed his name in the op-ed, doh!!
Funny thing about unidentified people using their own name in an op-ed, it suddenly makes them…. identified.
So go dunk your head in the toilet 3 times, JK, but please only pull it out twice.
November 30th, 2008 at 4:50 pmPoor little troll Keltoi is acting like he is being picked on. Everyone here sees no difference between Abu Grahib and Gitmo. They see that both were in complete disregard for the Geneva Conventions and previous US guidelines. Both involved the torture of people who were never charged with any crime. But Keltoi thinks they are apples and oranges. Well, I guess we should all bow to the superior intellect of Keltoi and admit that he is right and the rest of the posters here are wrong.
I live by a rule that Keltoi certainly doesn’t. That rule is if I believe something to be true and one person disagrees with me, I will maintain that I am right. Two people disagree I maintain that I may be wrong. When everyone disagrees with me, I know I’m wrong.
November 30th, 2008 at 4:53 pmIf saying Gitmo and Abu Grahib are not the same situations is defending Gitmo, then I am guilty as charged cause guess what? They are different.
It will be very interesting to watch how Obama deals with the closure of Gitmo. Again, there will be exactly zero prosecutions of people who worked there.
November 30th, 2008 at 4:53 pmI don’t think you are closer to Obama on this…….gawd, what a twisted mind.
What part of absolutly no torture do you and bush not understand? You use absolutist as if it were a bad thing…..in this case, I think not.
November 30th, 2008 at 4:53 pmWayne, it says he used a pseudonym. So, for what it’s worth, he remains “unidentified.”
November 30th, 2008 at 4:54 pmWayne Says:
John Kerry Says:
Well, business as usual, huh libs!!
Another UNIDENTIFIED “former interrogator” making up more lies!
It clearly shows you are too f_cking stupid to click a link to read the story, which listed his name in the op-ed, doh!!
JK rarely reads past the synopsis TP posts. I’m not sure he has the mental capacity to read an entire article.
I don’t understand why TP doesn’t ban the fool. He is definitely a spammer and that is against the rules. I guess TP lets him stay because he only posts once then runs and hides. But, I do think we should ignore him. He comes here and does a hit and run then sits back and waits to see everyone respond to him. That’s what he is after. How about we deprive him of what he wants.
November 30th, 2008 at 4:55 pmKeltoi at Night Says:
November 30th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
I think you understand that we are arguing that George W. Bush is responsible for everything that has occurred in Abu Ghraib and Gitmo, but you deliberately choose to “misunderstand.” Like I said, that’s who you are.
November 30th, 2008 at 4:55 pmgummitch Says:
Wayne, it says he used a pseudonym. So, for what it’s worth, he remains “unidentified.”
And I, for one, think it is very smart of him to use a pseudonym. To identify himself would be to put his life or current in jeopardy.
I’m just waiting to see how many whistle blowers come out of the woodwork once the Bush Crime Family is gone and no longer a threat to them.
November 30th, 2008 at 4:58 pmKeltoi at Night Says:
If saying Gitmo and Abu Grahib are not the same situations is defending Gitmo, then I am guilty as charged cause guess what? They are different.
It will be very interesting to watch how Obama deals with the closure of Gitmo. Again, there will be exactly zero prosecutions of people who worked there.
That’s fine by me. Hopefully there will be prosecution of the people who gave the orders to torture. If this is a just world, that will happen. If not, we are on a very slippery slope and who knows where we will end up. I know that Obama will not authorize torture. But if this country does not completely repudiate what the Bush Crime Family did, other nations are going to feel free to torture out soldiers, if captured. And how can we complain when we appear to condone torture by not condemning it through prosecuting the people who gave the orders.
November 30th, 2008 at 5:01 pmKeltoi at Night Says:
Again, there will be exactly zero prosecutions of people who worked there.
Don’t bet on it.
The US may decide not to prosecute, but the rest of the world have never let a country excusing its own war crimes slide. Such as Pinochet getting charged with war crimes in Europe, even though he gave himself immunity as president of Chile.
And torture of prisoners is a war crime, no matter how you want to try to spin it.
November 30th, 2008 at 5:02 pmKeltoy defends waterboarding:
November 30th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
Well . . .I DO think we should torture Freepers. It’s just in the name of science. Bet we could get them all to admit they planned 9/11.
November 30th, 2008 at 5:05 pmKeltoi at Night Says:
It will be very interesting to watch how Obama deals with the closure of Gitmo. Again, there will be exactly zero prosecutions of people who worked there.
So, Keltoi’s now on the international war crimes tribunal?
And I forgot to get him a gift, to celebtate his promotion!
Can you ever forgive me, Keltoi?
November 30th, 2008 at 5:07 pmkeltoy is a torture defender, from the same thread:
November 30th, 2008 at 5:08 pm
Impressive, Fred! That is what, over a year old?
Since you have this weird compulsion to go that far in the past, you must also know that I later changed my position based entirely on the discussion that came out of that thread after talking with JMOHR about it (he had it done to him). I am sure you will link up the comments where I admit I was wrong, too, right? No? Shocking.
November 30th, 2008 at 5:09 pmHe also said this, which was obviously a lie:
November 30th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
Damn did I miss John Kerry just when I was about to reheat those bratwurst? Ah with a nice stone ground mustard and some pickled sides… come on now John how can you resist? I just want to get more of your insights over a nice chow. Is that too much to ask?
November 30th, 2008 at 5:12 pmbarfly Says:
——————————————————————————–
Keltoi at Night Says:
It will be very interesting to watch how Obama deals with the closure of Gitmo. Again, there will be exactly zero prosecutions of people who worked there.
So, Keltoi’s now on the international war crimes tribunal?
And I forgot to get him a gift, to celebtate his promotion!
Can you ever forgive me, Keltoi?
I can. And I will wager you that imaginary gift that no one is ever prosecuted for Gitmo. It certainly won’t happen in the US; I also doubt it will happen in the Hague, but the chances are admittably much better there.
November 30th, 2008 at 5:12 pmFred Says:
He also said this, which was obviously a lie:
Oh, obviously. Dork.
Why oh why do I ever try to talk to you?
November 30th, 2008 at 5:13 pmWhen cornered he will invoke the Clinton dodge…….
You said it didn’t you?……and you don’t seem to have changed your position despite claiming that you had……why am I not surprised.
November 30th, 2008 at 5:15 pm——————————————————————————–
Keltoy seems to think I had been talking directly to him…..how funny and arrogant.
November 30th, 2008 at 5:19 pmGotta go, have fun with keltoy the barbarian…….
November 30th, 2008 at 5:20 pmKeltoi at Night Says:
I think it is important to not lump Abu Grahib and Gitmo together; they are very distinct situations. The latter is policy that you can disagree with; the former resulted in prosecution and prison time for those involved and was never policy.
The former did NOT result in prosecution prison time for those involved. It resulted in some penalties for a few soldiers, but nothing for the higher-ups who condoned it, turned away, or even encouraged it. The few soldiers, while definitely involved, became scapegoats as well for those who used them. And how do you know it wasn’t policy? Because Bush/Cheney said so?
November 30th, 2008 at 5:23 pmKeltoi at Night Says:
Fred Says:
He also said this, which was obviously a lie:
Oh, obviously. Dork.
Why oh why do I ever try to talk to you?
*
why, oh why do you post here?
clearly you’re not interested
in the truth.
^
does the name calling help?
:)
November 30th, 2008 at 5:29 pmKeltoi:
Abu Ghraib and Gitmo may not be the same, one is in Iraq and 1 is in Cuba, but at their core they are the same in that the actionsthat occurred were the result, the direct result, of the Bush administration at its highest levels not just looking a blind eye, but encouraging the abuses of prisoners, many of whom were not guilty of anything except their neighbor taking some reward money while settling some long term personal score. Both Abu Ghraib and Gitmo are stains on our country and have both been the prime recruitment tool for terrorists worldwide.
You can get into semantics and argue which one is worse, but the fact is that they are both black stains on our country and both were a direct result of the Bush administration and its actions, directives and its criminality. Case closed.
November 30th, 2008 at 5:29 pmI heard that from soldiers and most have said things are much worse then Americans know. We have tortured, raped and killed innocent woman/children. Most of those in Gitmo are innocent but were kidnapped by false information. At lease 7 inmates that consist of doctors and professors were tortured and raped to the point now their legally insane. The Australia man Mr. Hicks was innocent as he to was tortured, but when the Australian President wanted to get re=elected he said to the US let him out now. Hicks was told to lie under oath and he could go home. President Rudd has announced Hicks will be free at once and given protection from the USA. He said Hicks will be given back his life and all the medical attention he needs. This was once the Military Lawyer spoke out about how Hicks had never committed a crime and the US knew that but held him anyway.
November 30th, 2008 at 5:55 pmI find Keltoi’s tactic very amusing. His initial argument that Abu Ghraib and Gitmo are “very distinct situations” ignores the very real and important similarities between them, and then, when challenged, he claims that the progressive posters who argue against his unrealistic dichotomy are guilty of “seeing no distinction at all” between the two situations.
Kinda lazy, Keltoi. Not exactly up to your standards, now, is it?
A responsible discussion does not necessarily fall into either one of two camps — either the two are “very distinct” (the implication being that they cannot be discussed as part of a single pattern of disregard for international law) or that there is “no distinction” between them.
Is that really the playing field you want to cling to, Keltoi?
November 30th, 2008 at 6:20 pmKeltoi at Night Says:
I think it is important to not lump Abu Grahib and Gitmo together; they are very distinct situations. The latter is policy that you can disagree with; the former resulted in prosecution and prison time for those involved and was never policy.
I beg to differ. What happened at Abu Ghraib was imported from Gitmo by General Miller. The only ones prosecuted for the Abu Ghraib atrocities were the lowest level personnel, not any of those who ordered such treatment. General Taguba, who investigated the situation, reported that he had strict orders not to go above the lower levels in his investigation and pursing charges, though his evidence clearly and readily showed much higher responsibility.
November 30th, 2008 at 6:20 pmThe Indonesians have already figured it out that fighting terrorism by the power of persuasion instead of brutal military tactics and harsh interrogation methods is ultimately more successful in the long term.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/117/story/54612.html
As far as the statement, “Apparently, some members of the military command are not only unconvinced by the arguments against torture; they don’t even want the public to hear them” goes, I think it’s long past time to start early retiring and wholesale cleaning out these cold-war troglodytes from the ranks of the military command. Their inability to adapt and obstinance at trying new methods and tactics in such a dynamic conflict is reason enough to send them all packing into civilian life.
Just saying . . .
November 30th, 2008 at 6:40 pmKeltoi at Night Says:
I think it is important to not lump Abu Grahib and Gitmo together; they are very distinct situations.
The only difference between the two is in-country torture, as opposed to rendition to Gitmo, for torture.
From an international legal perspective, it’s a fly-speck of difference.
November 30th, 2008 at 6:40 pmKeltoi at Night Says:
Sy Hersch alleges much, proves
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Sy Hersch is one of Americas most respected investigative journalists. When he broke the My Lai story it was denied too. Of COURSE the Defense Dept denied it that is the POINT of plausable deniability. Why did the DOD STOP the longstanding policy of having a JAG officer WATCH interrogations at Abu Ghraib? Think that is a coincidence? JAG hired a human rights lawyer to protest this action. Think a few low level bad apples could have made THAT happen? No we probably arent going to prosecute this mores the pity but its just naive to think this didnt go right to the top. What about those memos saying that the CIC has the RIGHT to torture people? Do you think lawyers write those kinds of memos on SPEC? They just say well I just had a cheeseburger I think I will for no reason at all write a memo about why Bush CAN torture people if I want. Also IF it wasnt policy WHY was the Red Cross ignored when they reported these abuses to the White House A YEAR BEFORE THE SCNADAL HIT? Only by ignoring these FACTS can you possibly believe the transparent story that this was all about low level grunts and not policy IT WAS POLICY.
November 30th, 2008 at 6:47 pmKeltoi at Night Says:
Wow….I am actually pretty surprised that Bilbo, Zooey and others see no distinction at all between AG and Gitmo. I truly am. I think there is something more at work here if you can’t just admit they are different situations. I guess, though, that you see no difference between our management of Abu Grahib and Saddam’s management of it, too, though, right?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
IT WAS POLICY. People were raped, sodomized electric shocks to their genitals at least one person beaten to DEATH. I watched the Senate and House hearings on this subject. RAPE AND MURDER. I expect MORE of my country than being able to say well yes we have joined the evil doers club but we arent as bad as Saddam.
November 30th, 2008 at 6:50 pmPoor Queen Laura. Came into the White House, amid tales of a permanent republican majority. Now, she’s getting all weepy over the “little people,” she’ll no longer have access to (from Raw Story):
[...]
“I’ll miss being with the military, too, and that’s one of the things about Camp David that we liked so much, and that’s going to church at Camp David with the people who are posted there,” she said.
“I’ll miss all the people that are around us all the time. From the ushers and the butlers who are there for every president and have been there four or five administrations, to our own staff, of course, that we love to laugh with and talk with and solve problems with. And so I’ll miss the people the most.”
The first lady said she and her husband plan to spend their weeks in Dallas, Texas, and weekends at their ranch in Crawford, Texas, after leaving the White House.
[...]
Wanna’ bet they’re keeping “the ranch” because they’d take a bath if they tried to unload it, in this market?
November 30th, 2008 at 7:19 pmralph the wonder llama Says:
A responsible discussion does not necessarily fall into either one of two camps — either the two are “very distinct” (the implication being that they cannot be discussed as part of a single pattern of disregard for international law) or that there is “no distinction” between them.
Cripes, Ralph…okay, so they are kinda alike and yet not kinda alike? They are alike in the worst possible reflection on the Bush Admin, pro forma?
Again, instead of just knee jerk criticism of everything that happens in this country when the R’s are in power, what do you expect Obama to do with the inmates at Gitmo? Send them home? You think things have been harsh on them in Gitmo?
If we send the Saudi and Pakistani inmates home, they’ll be tortured and executed and the Progs here will decry our nominal allies. If we send the Syrian and Iranian nationals home, they’ll be freed and rewarded, and the Progs here will cheer.
What will Obama do with those currently in Gitmo??
November 30th, 2008 at 8:11 pm.
Of course it’s not an egregious offense to the face of humanity when America does it…
November 30th, 2008 at 8:18 pm… NO?
I can’t believe that someone can argue that Aubu Grahb and Gitmo are different……
OK, so I guess if one is being tortured at 3PM vs. 8PM then that makes the torture different somehow?
“what do you expect Obama to do with the inmates at Gitmo? Send them home?”
Well, thanks to Bush co. that is impossible. So first thing is to hold a trial for them, and if they are found innocent then they must be let go. So now we have to try to find someway to either accept them into our society or find them a country that will ensure their safety.
This is what Bush has ensured, by his illegal actions!
That’s OK though, because there is no statue of limitations for War Crimes. Just ask the Germans about that! They are still trying to prosecute Nazi members to this day for what they did under Hitler.
Bush Co. will eventually suffer the same fate. There is not a snowballs chance in hell that anyone can defend their actions in a court of law. At least not one that will win.
November 30th, 2008 at 8:56 pmI was just over at the MarketWatch blog (economics and politics – http://www.marketwatch.com/), and we’re trying to have a demonstration on the mall in DC on Jan 10, 2009. Conservatives, liberals, patriots, the selfless and the self-interested are invited.
Anyone here up for it?
November 30th, 2008 at 9:04 pmKeltoi,
I agree with just about everything you have posted on this thread.
I will add this: The enemy combatants we hold at Club Gitmo are NOT COVERED by the Geneva Conventions that apply to conventional P.O.W.’s, period.
We could have saved ourselves a lot of trouble if we had just EXECUTED them after capture as ENEMY SPIES who were not in uniform. We would have been within our rights and it would have been preferable to holding them with a chance some bleedignheart liberals would find a way to set them free someday.
November 30th, 2008 at 9:17 pmI just hope they release the detainees in the neighborhoods of all the ignorant fools in this country who think we did wrong by incarcerating them in the first place.
November 30th, 2008 at 9:20 pmWar Crimes? Hahahahahaha… don’t make me LAUGH!
I have to say this blog takes the cake for absolute stupidity when it comes to understanding the first thing about the war we are engaged in.
Most of you people make Obama look like a GENIUS!
November 30th, 2008 at 9:23 pmHi Tim!
November 30th, 2008 at 9:26 pmWeird ideas but still conversation starters. Thanks…
You know, I think it was a good thing that Muslim fanatics made their way to Iraq to fight the great Satan. We were then able to KILL thousands of ‘em.
We kept them busy as it were. Hahahahahahahaha
November 30th, 2008 at 9:27 pm“Tim Vaculik Says:
War Crimes? Hahahahahaha… don’t make me LAUGH!
I have to say this blog takes the cake for absolute stupidity when it comes to understanding the first thing about the war we are engaged in.”
You CLEARLY have no idea about what you talk about……
One cannot fight a “war” against an ideology.
And YES, Bush HAS committed WAR CRIMES!
Just because YOU don’t think so does not make it so!
The Geneva Convention, UN Charter, our own laws all say otherwise to your stupidity.
Perhaps you should really try reading the Constitution sometime, that is if your literate, and then you might learn what it really says.
Here is a link to it, though I doubt you will even read any part of it.
http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html
November 30th, 2008 at 9:27 pmdbadass,
You are welcome, of course. Have you given up all those bad, carbon based habits yet?
November 30th, 2008 at 9:28 pmMe? I’m enjoying a high standard of living that our modern, carbon based society has provided!
I’m not planning on moving to a damp, torch-lit cave anytime in the forseeable future.
November 30th, 2008 at 9:31 pmNo I just make sure I make the very best choices I can. I think you might find the freegan concept a wise one.
November 30th, 2008 at 9:31 pmfunkmonkey,
Wow, I guess YOU must be the expert, then.
Yeah…. Right….
November 30th, 2008 at 9:31 pm“capture as ENEMY SPIES who were not in uniform”
By the way. About 90% of those being held by the US were not “SPIES”. They were turned in for money!
I guess that is why Bush has a STELLAR record of convictions so far?
He has only a couple because the evidence is BOGUS and or obtained ILLEGALLY and so he has no case.
Either we are a nation of laws or we are not. If we are not, then we should all just steal what ever we want and kill anyone we don’t like.
November 30th, 2008 at 9:31 pmTim can you spare use the turning the lights off when we aren’t in the room equals cro-mag gig we’d appreciate it
November 30th, 2008 at 9:35 pmAgain, for those of you who haven’t got it yet:
Enemy combatants like the ones we are putting up at Club Gitmo are NOT enemy soldiers. They are also not criminals entitled to be tried in ANY U.S. Court of Law.
So what are they, exactly?
November 30th, 2008 at 9:35 pmTim, I used to think you were just whack.
November 30th, 2008 at 9:35 pmKeltoi will be relieved that he has Tim Vacuous in his corner.
November 30th, 2008 at 9:36 pmdbadass,
I’m just saying that you’d better enjoy modern conveniences and the freedom to engage in carbon-based commerce while you can…
You may laugh now, but you have no idea what the Enviro-weenies have in store for us.
November 30th, 2008 at 9:38 pmTim Vaculik Says:
Me? I’m enjoying a high standard of living that our modern, carbon based society has provided!
I’m not planning on moving to a damp, torch-lit cave anytime in the forseeable future.”
Living in your mom’s basement really is not a high standard of living, hate to break the news to you. But keep on living there, probably best you don’t go out. You don’t have much in the way of social skills.
November 30th, 2008 at 9:40 pmZooey Says:
Keltoi will be relieved that he has Tim Vacuous in his corner.
Oohhhhhh……Zooey!
November 30th, 2008 at 9:41 pm“You may laugh now, but you have no idea what the Enviro-weenies have in store for us.”
Well I will if you clue me in since you want to suggest you do… Do tell my man…
November 30th, 2008 at 9:41 pmHi Tim Vacuous. Nice to see you this evening.
Quick question:is it easy being a cartoon character?
One would think it would be, but then there are probably difficulties that would crop up; limited facial expressions, for one thing. And you probably can’t get too intricate with your apparel, right? Simple designs only, like the traditional t-shirt with the broad jagged line around the middle that you guys seem to favor.
On the other hand, you don’t have to worry about your hair getting mussed, and your dialogue doesn’t have to closely match your lip movement. I’ll bet those are real time-savers, huh?
November 30th, 2008 at 9:41 pmTim Vaculik Says:
“I have to say this blog takes the cake for absolute stupidity when it comes to understanding the first thing about the war we are engaged in.”
And how do you know? Serve in the military? No. Live in a city attacked by terrorists?? No. So how exactly are you such an expert, or are you just a complete pussy coward talking out of your ass??? Yes
November 30th, 2008 at 9:43 pmActually, I’m starting to have PANGS of guilt over my gluttonous carbon-based lifestyle!
Oh, woe is me! How can I atone for all the horrible DAMAGE I have done to my earth-mother? I’ve got it! I will give up ALL the carbon-based attributes of my lifestyle.
NOT!
See you later, chumps.
November 30th, 2008 at 9:43 pmOh no Tim, Not yet….
November 30th, 2008 at 9:45 pm“Tim Vaculik Says:
Again, for those of you who haven’t got it yet:
Enemy combatants like the ones we are putting up at Club Gitmo are NOT enemy soldiers. They are also not criminals entitled to be tried in ANY U.S. Court of Law.
So what are they, exactly?”
Given that one cannot wage a “WAR” against an IDEOLOGY, they are people who DESERVE to be tried and have their day in court.
When people are PAYING money to get names of people and these people are rounded up, the odds that they are “terrorists” are extremely LOW. They are people who others had grudges against and just wanted to get rid of.
Of course YOU in-ability to read and understand this, even though people here have said it MULTIPLE times just means that you are not looking for the truth and you simply just want to keep your eyes/ears covered and continue to say “la la la la la la la, I can’t hear you, la la la la la”
November 30th, 2008 at 9:45 pmTimmeh, do you realize that virtually ALL life on this planet (save for some aberrant species that live near undersea sulfur vents) is carbon-based?
Given that scientific truth, do you want to re-state your point so that it makes some sense?
Thanks ever so.
November 30th, 2008 at 9:46 pmIs Tim “John Kerry’s” cousin, the facts get too much for him so he runs off like all GOP cowards???
November 30th, 2008 at 9:48 pmThey share a similar style of irrational discourse, but where Troll John Kerry has devolved into a strictly hit-and-run troll, Tim Vacuous is much more of an inflatable-clown-punching-bag-type of troll. Much more fun.
November 30th, 2008 at 9:52 pmralph, Is this what we have reduced ourselves to?
November 30th, 2008 at 9:54 pmralph the wonder llama Says:
——————————————————————————–
blue state bob Says:
Is Tim “John Kerry’s” cousin, the facts get too much for him so he runs off like all GOP cowards???
They share a similar style of irrational discourse, but where Troll John Kerry has devolved into a strictly hit-and-run troll, Tim Vacuous is much more of an inflatable-clown-punching-bag-type of troll. Much more fun.
I am embarassed to admit I am feeling weirdly jealous….
And you are dodging me at #68, Camelid/Ungulate.
November 30th, 2008 at 9:55 pmOdd you should put it that way, Keltoi, since you seem to have avoided MY point — namely, that your presentation of the issue is lazy. You present two possibilities: that Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo are the same thing, or that they have nothing in common.
That’s sloppy, unrealistic and perhaps even disingenuous. In fact, there are vivid and important similarities that have grave implications for this nation’s moral standing in the world. Both are prisons and both were scenes of unconscionable abuses of prisoners, whether through physical torture or simply through lack of due process. Both have been justified by right-wing apologists, both can be traced directly to administration attitudes if not strict policy, and both are responsible for damage to the reputation of this nation.
These similarities, in my mind, far outweigh the modest differences in setting, administration and legal consequence that you say render them “very distinct” from one another, so distinct, in fact, that you would have them not even considered as part of the same argument.
Now, where’s Timmeh? I wanna try out this new mallet.
November 30th, 2008 at 10:11 pmI trust the llama has selcted a small mallett. As the global fisheries has continued in its decline we have all been forced to shift to gear which targets ever smaller and less desired species…
November 30th, 2008 at 10:17 pmSadly, dbadass, I fear you are right. Those glorious days of being able to swing a wiffle bat with your eyes closed and still knock down three trolls are over.
I think I know how nineteenth-century fur trappers felt when the beaver started disappearing.
November 30th, 2008 at 10:22 pmmaybe if we falsely claimed somebody was coming to take their guns away we could flush a few…
November 30th, 2008 at 10:29 pmThat married gay men who were adopting children were trying to take their guns away……
November 30th, 2008 at 10:30 pmif we add that their taxes are going to be used to help others and maintain the roads and stuff we are sure to have a whole flock of em…
November 30th, 2008 at 10:33 pmralph the wonder llama Says:
These similarities, in my mind, far outweigh the modest differences in setting, administration and legal consequence that you say render them “very distinct” from one another, so distinct, in fact, that you would have them not even considered as part of the same argument.
I wouldn’t call them modest differences. I see them as substantial.
Also, I think they can be considered part of the same argument, but AG was a cold cut case of atrocity, while the situation at Gitmo is more nuanced.
Question: It is December of 2001, a President Al Gore has a couple thousand non-uniformed enemy combatants in his custody and he does….what? Give them all civilian trials?
Look at the trial of Moussaui. Are you ready for a hundred or a thousand of those? And if we send them home to face trial…again, I advert to post #68.
But where you are dodging me is what will Obama have to do to satisfy the Progressive sense of justice vis Gitmo?
November 30th, 2008 at 10:39 pm> The enemy combatants we hold at
> Club Gitmo are NOT COVERED
> by the Geneva Conventions
Guess who else isnt Timmeh..out special forces, who often engage in military actions while not in uniform. Are you saying its ok if an enemy country who captures our plain clothes special forces operatives tortures them?
November 30th, 2008 at 10:45 pmsorry.. OUR special forces, not OUT special forces..
November 30th, 2008 at 10:46 pmDr. Hussein Matt Says:
——————————————————————————–
Keltoi at Night Says:
If we send the Saudi and Pakistani inmates home, they’ll be tortured and executed and the Progs here will decry our nominal allies
Christ, you are a stupid pile of sh*t….only an obtuse reich-wing dolt like yourself would believe their home country would torture them because they were tortured by the U.S. You are simpleton and a scumbag.
Hey, Joe Cantwell – gonna bag on Matt for name calling? No? It is all good when Progs do it, though, huh.
As for you Matt, if you don’t think Saudi Arabia and Pakistan torture routinely, well, there is no hope for you. And you call me a simpelton. What a joke.
There really is no evil country on this Earth except for your own, is there? AT least not til the shining Knight Sir de Obama comes to power,then we’ll be just perfect, won’t we?
Absurd. Soooo looking forward to Obama being held to the same standard as Boosh.
November 30th, 2008 at 10:47 pmkeltoi and tim.
*
mediocre minds think alike.
^
November 30th, 2008 at 10:48 pmQuestion: It is December of 2001, a President Al Gore has a couple thousand non-uniformed enemy combatants in his custody and he does….what? Give them all civilian trials?
-Keltoi at Night
Where did you come up with a couple of thousand? Why would Gore have a couple of thousand “enemy combatants” in custody? What’s wrong with civilian trials if you have a solid case?
November 30th, 2008 at 10:50 pmKeltoi at Night Says:
Hey, Joe Cantwell – gonna bag on Matt for name calling? No? It is all good when Progs do it, though, huh.
*
stop it matt.
^
feel better k?
:)
November 30th, 2008 at 10:51 pmDr. Hussein Matt Says:
Only a vile subhuman reich-winger would think torture and illegal detainment of combatants is a nuance. You really a pile of sh*t. You should seriously consider suicide; you will not be missed by anyone. Seriously. You are the lowest common denominator in society.
*
Joe?
>
Gonna stay quiet?
*
Good Luck
….
November 30th, 2008 at 10:53 pmKeltoi at Night Says:
Dr. Hussein Matt Says:
Only a vile subhuman reich-winger would think torture and illegal detainment of combatants is a nuance. You really a pile of sh*t. You should seriously consider suicide; you will not be missed by anyone. Seriously. You are the lowest common denominator in society.
*
Joe?
>
Gonna stay quiet?
*
Good Luck
*
got an issue?
here’s a tissue.
:)
good luck.
*
November 30th, 2008 at 10:57 pmNat Says:
Where did you come up with a couple of thousand? Why would Gore have a couple of thousand “enemy combatants” in custody? What’s wrong with civilian trials if you have a solid case?
As to the first: when the US routed the Taliban, there were several thousand prisoners. Some were AQ, some were Taliban…there were thousands to deal with. There was no government in Afghanistan. What were we supposed to do with them?
As to the second, did we give civillian trials to German POWs? And they were captured in uniform, hence subject to Geneva convention rules. Are you saying AQ is entitled to the same treatment as soldiers wearing a national uniform? Have you read the Geneva conventions?
November 30th, 2008 at 10:58 pm*
got an issue?
here’s a tissue.
:)
good luck.
*
Rank Hypocrisy
—
Was never so
*
Witless
*
November 30th, 2008 at 11:00 pmKeltoi at Night Says:
Nat Says:
Where did you come up with a couple of thousand? Why would Gore have a couple of thousand “enemy combatants” in custody? What’s wrong with civilian trials if you have a solid case?
As to the first: when the US routed the Taliban, there were several thousand prisoners. Some were AQ, some were Taliban…there were thousands to deal with. There was no government in Afghanistan. What were we supposed to do with them?
As to the second, did we give civillian trials to German POWs? And they were captured in uniform, hence subject to Geneva convention rules. Are you saying AQ is entitled to the same treatment as soldiers wearing a national uniform? Have you read the Geneva conventions?
*
have you?
:)
November 30th, 2008 at 11:02 pmKeltoi at Night Says:
*
got an issue?
here’s a tissue.
:)
good luck.
*
Rank Hypocrisy
—
Was never so
*
Witless
*
:)
what’s a prog?
+
is it like an sp?
*
good luck.
^
are you a “traditionalist”?
if so, why?
#
thank you.
^
November 30th, 2008 at 11:06 pmkeltoi,
“Gonna stay quiet?”
*
November 30th, 2008 at 11:06 pmjoe cantwell Says:
——————————————————————————–
keltoi,
“Gonna stay quiet?”
For you joe? Yes.
I hate blogging in Haiku, anyway.
You bag on me for name calling, when it is SOP around here 24/7, but again, if it is a lib doing it you have nothing to say.
You are one step above Fred, who is 10 steps above RHF. You are slightly more obtuse than Bilbo.
So
*
Good Night
*
November 30th, 2008 at 11:12 pmWeird with a beard…
November 30th, 2008 at 11:16 pmAs to the first: when the US routed the Taliban, there were several thousand prisoners. Some were AQ, some were Taliban…there were thousands to deal with. There was no government in Afghanistan. What were we supposed to do with them?
Treat them as prisoners of war. You act as though these people weren’t gonna fight us when we invaded their country.
As to the second, did we give civillian trials to German POWs?
Why does this matter? And what’s wrong with civilian trials?
And they were captured in uniform, hence subject to Geneva convention rules. Are you saying AQ is entitled to the same treatment as soldiers wearing a national uniform? Have you read the Geneva conventions?
What was the official uniform of Afghanistan at the time? What does the Geneva conventions state?
November 30th, 2008 at 11:17 pm“Keltoi at Night Says:
Have you read the Geneva conventions?”
YES, apparently you have not!
“Section I. Provisions common to the territories of the parties to the conflict and to occupied territories
Article 32. A protected person/s shall not have anything done to them of such a character as to cause physical suffering or extermination … the physical suffering or extermination of protected persons in their hands. This prohibition applies not only to murder, torture, corporal punishments, mutilation and medical or scientific experiments not necessitated by the medical treatment‘ While popular debate remains on what constitutes a legal definition of torture (see discussion on the Torture page), the ban on corporal punishment simplifies the matter; even the most mundane physical abuse is thereby forbidden by Article 32, as a precaution against alternate definitions of torture.
The prohibition on scientific experiments was added, in part, in response to experiments by German and Japanese doctors during World War II, of whom Josef Mengele was the most infamous.”
“Collective punishments
Article 33. No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.”
“Under the 1949 Geneva Conventions collective punishments are a war crime.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Geneva_Convention
Article 3 describes minimal protections which must be adhered to by all individuals within a signatory’s territory during an armed conflict not of an international character (regardless of citizenship or lack thereof): Noncombatants, combatants who have laid down their arms, and combatants who are hors de combat (out of the fight) due to wounds, detention, or any other cause shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, including prohibition of outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment. The passing of sentences must also be pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples. Article 3’s protections exist even if one is not classified as a prisoner of war. Article 3 also states that parties to the internal conflict should endeavour to bring into force, by means of special agreements, all or part of the other provisions of GCIII.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Geneva_Convention
Oh, this is tooooo easy.
November 30th, 2008 at 11:18 pmBy god he told us didn’t he……..couldn’t do it with facts or logic so he did it the old fashioned way…..heh.
The trolls are amusing in their loss of power….makes em feeble.
November 30th, 2008 at 11:20 pmKeltoi at Night Says:
joe cantwell Says:
——————————————————————————–
keltoi,
“Gonna stay quiet?”
For you joe? Yes.
I hate blogging in Haiku, anyway.
You bag on me for name calling, when it is SOP around here 24/7, but again, if it is a lib doing it you have nothing to say.
You are one step above Fred, who is 10 steps above RHF. You are slightly more obtuse than Bilbo.
So
*
Good Night
*
*
you’re crying.
crying isn’t a lib thing.
it’s a human thing.
*
don’t be ashamed,
ok?
*
good night.
*
haiku.
#
obtuse?
do you know tracy__5?
busted!
:)
November 30th, 2008 at 11:20 pmOh, and Keltoi….
Here is the kicker for you….
“# Article 4 defines prisoners of war to include:
* 4.1.1 Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict and members of militias of such armed forces
* 4.1.2 Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, provided that they fulfill all of the following conditions:
o that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
o that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance (there are limited exceptions to this among countries who observe the 1977 Protocol I);
o that of carrying arms openly;
o that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
* 4.1.3 Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
* 4.1.4 Civilians who have non-combat support roles with the military and who carry a valid identity card issued by the military they support.
* 4.1.5 Merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.
* 4.1.6 Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.
* 4.3 makes explicit that Article 33 takes precedence for the treatment of medical personnel of the enemy and chaplains of the enemy.
# Article 5 specifies that prisoners of war (as defined in article 4) are protected from the time of their capture until their final repatriation. It also specifies that when there is any doubt whether a combatant belongs to the categories in article 4, they should be treated as such until their status has been determined by a competent tribunal.“
November 30th, 2008 at 11:24 pmGeorge W.Bush will go down in history as an American butcher.
November 30th, 2008 at 11:24 pmfunkmonkey Says:
Oh, and Keltoi….
Here is the kicker for you….
“# Article 4 defines prisoners of war to include:
* 4.1.1 Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict and members of militias of such armed forces
* 4.1.2 Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, provided that they fulfill all of the following conditions:
o that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
o that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance (there are limited exceptions to this among countries who observe the 1977 Protocol I);
o that of carrying arms openly;
o that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
* 4.1.3 Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
* 4.1.4 Civilians who have non-combat support roles with the military and who carry a valid identity card issued by the military they support.
* 4.1.5 Merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.
* 4.1.6 Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.
* 4.3 makes explicit that Article 33 takes precedence for the treatment of medical personnel of the enemy and chaplains of the enemy.
# Article 5 specifies that prisoners of war (as defined in article 4) are protected from the time of their capture until their final repatriation. It also specifies that when there is any doubt whether a combatant belongs to the categories in article 4, they should be treated as such until their status has been determined by a competent tribunal.“
*
funk,
don’t bother.
he’s whipped.
again.
:)
November 30th, 2008 at 11:25 pmJoe, yeah I know but I want it out there for any other troll who may raise their ugly heads.
This is something that they can’t spin. It is FACT, and proof that Bush committed War Crimes.
Just want to make it as visible as possible for all to see.
November 30th, 2008 at 11:28 pmSimply live up to the obligations we have as part of our international treaties, our constitution and our own sense of moral standards. Nothing more.
The Law is not situational, Keltoi. If a man deserves a fair trial in a timely manner, then EVERY man deserves that right. Not simply the people we believe deserve it.
November 30th, 2008 at 11:30 pmI wonder if keltoy has bought his Obama memorial plates. Funny, I don’t remember them making them for bush…..now they are everywhere for Obama.
From the same group who cannot live within their means……talk to me about that budget surplus and debt clock running backwards when handed over to the conservatives…..timmy and all conservatives are all talk.
November 30th, 2008 at 11:33 pmfunkmonkey, keep the pressure on them but never think you will change their minds…..they are just the kids no one will play with because thier idea of fun is pulling the wings off of fly’s and other acts of brutality.
They are bullies and we can’t let them have their way anymore…..look where it took us. They are actually, clinically unbalanced. If you don’t believe it, read back through this thread.
November 30th, 2008 at 11:38 pmFred Says:
I wonder if keltoy has bought his Obama memorial plates. Funny, I don’t remember them making them for bush…..now they are everywhere for Obama.
Tim Vaculik Says:
I’m just saying that you’d better enjoy modern conveniences and the freedom to engage in carbon-based commerce while you can…
You may laugh now, but you have no idea what the Enviro-weenies have in store for us.
From the same group who cannot live within their means……talk to me about that budget surplus and debt clock running backwards when handed over to the conservatives…..timmy and all conservatives are all talk.
November 30th, 2008 at 11:33 pm Recommend (0) | Report Abuse
*
this just in:
keltoi is ted nugent.
^
November 30th, 2008 at 11:38 pm“Some were AQ, some were Taliban” AND SOME WERE INNOCENT CAB DRIVERS AND SHEEPHERDERS CAUGHT IN A DRAGNET OF BOUNTY-HUNTERS AND TRIBAL LEADERS.
Do you think your rhetorical question excuses the blatant abuses of international law that the Bush administration actively sought to justify?
You guys really should pick an argument and stick with it. Clearly if you don’t want to extend Geneva protections to “enemy combatants” then they must be subject to civil adjudication, no?
Your argument appears to be that there are some people whose imprisonment is outside of any legal jurisdiction whatsoever, and that we got to decide who is in that category. Is that a fair assessment?
November 30th, 2008 at 11:39 pmI really thought I had been doing my part Joe…..guess I’ll have to try a little harder.
Maybe we should start a rating system for the few trolls we have left……
We could base it on their ability to speak about the realities of our world or thier ability to attempt to change that reality to suit their need.
On a scale of 1-10 I give keltoy a 2 because he casually engages on some threads so as to seem reasonable…..then there are nights like tonight.
Timmy goes into negative numbers…..he is as Ralph pointed out….just a cartoon figure like troll john kerry. As I read timmy’s posts I was actually visualizing him in a nazi uniform with a monacle and crop….Ralph nailed him.
November 30th, 2008 at 11:50 pmTim Vaculik Says:
I doubt anyone is suprised you are as demonstrably ignorant as you usually are nor that you show you dont have a shred of decency. Calling for outright murder though shows you are a subhuman cretin. You are of course WRONG that the Geneva convention does not apply to them. The GC says DIRECTLY that no one is beyond the reach of the law and there are other categories than uniformed soldiers. You of course are always too ignorant to know what you are talking about. Did you know that MOST of those at GITMO were NOT captured on the battlefield but rather were SOLD to us by the Afghani warlords for MONEY and we have nothing except their word these guys are guilty of ANYTHING much less terrorism. A JUDGE just let five of them go but YOU since you have no soul, no shred of decency no inkling of what integrity is would have America MURDER THEM as if we were al Queda or Nazi Germany. You are a sick subhuman pkece of garbage. Get professional help immedialy you sick bastard
December 1st, 2008 at 12:07 amTim Vaculik Says:
War Crimes? Hahahahahaha… don’t make me LAUGH!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Timmeh that is pure projection YOU are the stupidest piece of garbage to ever walk the Earth. YES warcrimes. First prisoners are not exempt from the GC just because Bush says so. The GC says DIRECTLY that if there is a dispute a competent tribunal will make the decision we didnt do that. Also If the Nuremberg laws were applied Bush would be HANGED. The Supreme War Crime according to the Nuremberg tribunals which WE held was starting a war of aggression it is not a suprise you didnt know this since you are so stupid I am shocked you know how to breathe you worthless piece of human debris
December 1st, 2008 at 12:13 amTim Vaculik Says:
funkmonkey,
And YES, Bush HAS committed WAR CRIMES!
Just because YOU don’t think so does not make it so!
Wow, I guess YOU must be the expert, then.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Compared to you anyone with a functioning brainpan is an expert. You are too stupid to be taken seriously please stop breathing you are wasting oxygen that a higher lifeform could be using.
December 1st, 2008 at 12:14 amTim Vaculik Says:
Actually, I’m starting to have PANGS of guilt over my gluttonous carbon-based lifestyle!
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
You SHOULD be ashamed for being YOU. You SHOULD be ashamed for shaming our whole country with your ignorance and your level of depravity and lack of a soul. You SHOULD be ashamed for embarassing our entire species with your ignorance and lack of decency. I can smell your soul rotting right through the computer screen the stench of your indecency stinks up our whole country.
December 1st, 2008 at 12:17 amEven timmi has an autonomic nervous system which takes care of this for him.
What I find amusing is when they call us tree huggers or libs as if that were still a bad name. Truth is the world first, and now Americans have moved past the rhetoric of the conservatisim as a losing option for human beings.
Sad part is that our poor trolls have missed the bugle call to retreat. It is now “conservative” which is a bad word. No one I know is a conservative anymore….funny isn’t it.
December 1st, 2008 at 12:20 amTim Vaculik Says:
Again, for those of you who haven’t got it yet:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Timmeh when are you going to get that YOU are the most ignorant and uninformed hivemind moron ever to come down the pike. You combination of abject stupidity and condescension is astonishing in its level of self delusion. You are STUPID Timmeh. You arent going to teach us anything you are just going to regurgitate another rerun of the Rush Limbaugh show since HE or someone like him does ALL YOUR THINKING FOR YOU
Enemy combatants like the ones we are putting up at Club Gitmo are NOT enemy soldiers. They are also not criminals entitled to be tried in ANY U.S. Court of Law.
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You got your degree in Constitutional law WHERE again? My GOD you are ignorant. The SC of course disagrees with you and has recently SAID SO YOU MORON. This is actually simple any reasonably bright six year old could understand it. Of course it will still be WAY beyond you. Your galactic level of stupidity is an awe to behold. EITHER they are POWs, in which case they must be treated that way OR they are criminals which we must SHOW BY THE LAW. IF they are to be punished BY our law then they are entitled to go to COURT.
So what are they, exactly?
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I am more interested in what YOU are. As they are tried we will find out what THEY are. Some probably criminals others likely terrorists and most likely others completely innocent. What are YOU? A subhuman piece of garbage that is certain. I think that even YOU are entitled to a trial fortunatly for you astonishing ignorance, spectacular stupidity and the lack of a soul are not criminal. I pity anyone who has to endure even seconds of your putrid presence
December 1st, 2008 at 12:28 amKeltoi at Night Says:
Question: It is December of 2001, a President Al Gore has a couple thousand non-uniformed enemy combatants in his custody and he does….what? Give them all civilian trials?
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So what is your point exactly that it is too inconvienient to give them a trial? Are you kidding me THAT is your argument? I am not sensing much of a comittement to being a civilized society or the rule of law here. In our country the LAW is king NOT Bush, NOT Congress THE LAW. Either you have a commitment to justice or you dont. Saying well there are a LOT of them and it would be a lot of trouble is NOT a comittment to justice. IF we are to treat them as criminals then we must establish they are. NOTHING else is acceptable.
But where you are dodging me is what will Obama have to do to satisfy the Progressive sense of justice vis Gitmo?
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That is so simple. Either try them or treat them as POWs and let them go when hostilities cease in the mean time TREAT them as POWs.
December 1st, 2008 at 12:39 amLate into the fray again. I have such lousy timing it seems.
The Geneva Convention are the standards that we have said we would uphold and are agreed on by other countries that belong to the United Nations. Our current administration is in violation of those standards of decency, civility and basic human rights, especially in the handling of our prisoners of war.
How, I ask you, can we be SUBSTANDARD to countries we used to consider third world rated? Our standard of sheer human decency has been so lowered by the current administration that the taint of it will smear many future years of politic diplomacy no matter the nation we are negotiating with. That is unacceptable.
The prisoners in Gitmo are POWS and as such, should be treated accordingly–trial or release. They can not remain in that h*ll of a limbo for eternity. The only reason they have been there that long is because no one had the balls to really look into how badly everything had been handled or to ensure that everything had been handled legally from the get go. To torture on top of imprisonment is immoral.
We know it is wrong in both instances and it is inexcusable that those responsible get away with it. That’s like saying “here’s a few thousand plus murders but we don’t care who did it.”
December 1st, 2008 at 1:41 am> Another UNIDENTIFIED “former interrogator”
> making up more lies!
John Kerrette (you sound like an ann coulter type to me), looks like you you put former interrogator in quotes to somehome imply hes not really a former interogator…do you really think the washington post would risk its credibility by releasing an editoral by someone whose identity they had not actually confirmed? come on..are you saying the Wapo just let some random guy write an editoral and didnt even check his credentials?
December 1st, 2008 at 2:02 amAnyone who tortures is sadist. There isn’t a more feasible explanation. Besides look at the smiling faces on the torturers.
chimpy is sadist and has a petty payback mindset.
Now he is making us all pay while he plays the fiddle.
December 1st, 2008 at 2:02 amthe Lone Voice of Reason Says@153
How, I ask you, can we be SUBSTANDARD to countries we used to consider third world rated?
Please name an all white third world nation. Then name a second world nation.
TYIA
December 1st, 2008 at 2:09 amThis is exactly the kind of thing we need more of. I think that those who criticize the critics of over-agression misunderstand human nature. Men defending their homes are dangerous. The more you back them into a corner, the harder they fight, because one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.
Nelson Mandela was called a terrorist once.
The Phrygian Cap
December 1st, 2008 at 5:01 am“Ineffective and dangerous.” Sounds like every right-wing policy ever conceived.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WugcAuQMP1s
December 1st, 2008 at 5:31 amKeltoi is pwned at 104, just flat-out obliterated.
And still a limp-wristed, Shrub-stroker.
A system of 24/7 c.y.a. for criminal activity is NOT something to be proud of, idiot, and is as far from acting “patriotic” as you could possible get.
December 1st, 2008 at 7:40 am“Game of Life 156-Please name an all white third world nation. Then name a second world nation”
My bad-late nite crankiness got the better of me. I should have typed “how can we be substandard in the treatment of POWS compared to other members of NATO”.
I don’t mentally ascribe to a belief in imaginary third–or second–worlds (not like Timmeh Troll, Keltoi, bitbit, or Rapture)
December 1st, 2008 at 8:01 amTim, I guess you’ve never heard of Common Article 3 of the Geneva Convention. Here’s the link – http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/WebART/375-590006. I bet you’ll be surprised by what it sez.
December 1st, 2008 at 10:39 ammarkusmarkus Says:
True enough Mark if Rush didnt say it, Timmeh hasnt heard of it
December 1st, 2008 at 12:26 pm