CageyCretin Says: Nice derailment. Arguing about what Obama said and ponting out what he didn’t say?

Oh sorry, did I derail your excellent point that I was obviously pro-torture because I was suggesting I wanted more commitment to end it?
How disappointed you must be that you wouldn’t be able to provide any response or defense of that nonsense, given your state of derailment.

How do YOU know that Obama won’t do anything about Gitmo?

How do you know OJ Simpson isn’t going to win an Oscar this year? Neither of us has suggested either outcome, so I guess this is just as relevant.
This is an odd paragraph to immediately follow the one where you accuse me of derailing something.

Or about renditions? Generally speaking, president elects, who have not been sworn into office yet, generally speaking, THEY DON”T LEAD THE COUNTRY YET!!!!!!! You can CLAIM all day long that he will or won’t do this or that, but it is meaningless, unless your magickal crystal ball is showing you the future. Is that what it is?

I haven’t claimed anything. I’ve merely stated that he has made no commitment to stopping these programs. I don’t have to claim what that means since it is obvious. Note that his not being president yet didn’t seem to stop him committing to closing Gitmo. A move that was met with almost universal acclaim. Perhaps you’re thinking that committing to closing the secret prisons where detainees are disappeared to for years would have been less well received? No?

Still, this not-the-president excuse runs out in 40 days, so we will see soon enough. I hope someone is working on that replacement excuse.

And WTF is up with you hard-on for Clinton?

Have you understood anything that has been written here? I mentioned Clinton only to point out that rendition and torture of terrorism suspects has already occurred under a Democrat administration, hence you may want to seek an assurance it’s going to stop under the next one rather than just assuming it will.

Beyond that, Clinton’s only been discussed because someone claimed Clinton’s well documented and admitted actions never occurred.

Oh, right, you’re a brain-dead reichwinger who can only spew propoganda that has been beaten into your thick skull, and the biggest part of that propoganda is, “It’s Clinton’s fault.” What a cartload of horse S hit. F^$k Clinton — he is not president, not president elect, and won’t BE president again.

Same goes for Bush in 40 days time too I guess.
Never again shall you tolerate anyone referencing the policies Bush established as though they had a meaningful impact on current policy, right?

Clinton is, by all appearances, YOUR yardstick, but he is not mine, nor most others here.

WTF are you talking about? I’ve said he established what he did and what nobody can deny he did. That makes him “someone from history we are aware of” not a freaking yard stick you fool. If you cannot understand what is being written feel free to just STFU and not waste people’s time attempting to involve yourself.

what amazon reading list? this is very grade school

I couldn’t agree more.

calavzma Says: well based on the credibility of the google search you posted i doubt it. did you look at the links in the google post. the only two respectable sources on that page are the bbc and amnesty international… both of them only cite examples from the bush years and neither article says anything about clinton, interestingly enough

You said we should refer to primary sources. Those people are the guy who set up the renditions program, another CIA officer familiar with it and the most prominant and forthright FBI agent on the topic who’s commented on his involvement in CT throughout the 1990s.
I couldn’t care less what websites they are quoted on. Nobody with any serious understanding of sourcing would.

calavzma Says: you did cite one book, to your credit, but then you followed it up with wikipedia
wikipedia? really?

Yes, really. You could always suggest your own preferred summary of topic which carries 130 footnoted references. But you haven’t until now and I know you’re not, because you can’t.

i haven’t seen you mention a book, you’ve mentioned people and what they said. books have titles, publishers, and copywrite dates.

Some of them also generate weeks worth of national press coverage when they’re published. Are we really having a conversation where one of us is saying he’s never heard of Richard Clarke’s “Against All Enemies”?
You can search inside it on Amazon if you’d like to confirm the quotes I provided if you like.

The Democratic politicians today are more fascist than Democratic.

Alecto Says: Tank, psst, sometimes people write whole books just to hear themselves talk and give themselves false “bonafides.”
December 11th, 2008 at 8:19 am

Sometimes people write comments that say nothing just to involve themselves in a conversation.

If you think that multiple, concurring accounts from the CIA, FBI, Clinton’s head of CT, Egyptian human rights lawyers, researchers and presidential records attesting to the fact that these same people were committing crimes are all wrong because what they all agree happened didn’t, then just say so.
Otherwise quit talking nonsense.

CageyCretin Says:
Then again, Tank (et. al.), you and your ilk like the thought of torture.

I guess I gave that away by arguing that Obama should be committing to ceasing more torture programs than he is.
Are you mentally handicapped?

O.k., fair enough. But I kind of cringe at offering the reichwing and its allies (such as Reyes, and our trolls) images of children being tortured. They like that kind of thing way too much. It’s almost cruel in itself: like waving a baggie of crack in front of a jonesing crack head. Cruel, and dangerous.

Many would love to see fair trials conducted in a fair court for treason (which would, I firmly believe, require a few hangings). I have serious doubts that it will happen, though. I think that our system is too broken, and filled with too many corrupt (and thus fearful of prosecution) politicians. I DO hope that the world will demand some justice, but that is in question. Yet, hope springs eternal. Justice SHOULD prevail.

YOu are not going FAR ENOUGH. The SUSPECT should have his family kidnapped and tortured. I mean how else would you get actionable intel if not to pull the pigtails of a 4yo repeatedly, and did I say give her nuggies also.
These perverse little pieces of shit on the right are fearful of their own shadow. That is why Dick stays in it. He knows the REICHWING have an intense and deepseated fear of the dark. He exploits is. He keeps the lights off in the Offal office and does his best “BOGGGIIEEE, BOOOGGIIIEEE”, every time dinkledoofus walks into the oval office. Scares the shit out of him every time.

God, I want to see these fcuks hang for treason.

Rep. Silvestre Reyes (D-TX), EX-chairman of the House Intelligence Committee

I suppose, though, that at no point EVER, will you complain about Americans being tortured for information or retaliation. Right? You don’t care if these “techniques” are used against American soldiers, right?

And why don’t we have our police use these techniques? They are effective in garnering actionable and truthful intelligence, right? Well, the police could use a lot of that. Let’s allow waterboarding in police stations. Let’s allow them to use all these techniques, that by the right’s standards, are not torture. Otherwise we are denying our police all of the useful tools to do their jobs. They could STOP a lot of crimes before they even happen. Of course, if your neighbor did something wrong you might get picked up to be “questioned” for a few days, but it is all for the good of society. That is your beileif, the rightwing belief, that the good of the society is greater than the good of the individual? Right, righty?

Tank Says:

calavzma, I’ve referenced books written by primary sources. You’ll find no scholarly texts on this topic that compare to my amazon reading list when it comes to the topic of renditions of terrorism suspects.

He IS the authority! So go “READ a MUDDGUGGIN BOOK…Nigga” just like the video. Loved it.

My question calavzma is, would an internet link to an truly authoritative academic text on google books be allowed?

Just askin’

Tank, psst, sometimes people write whole books just to hear themselves talk and give themselves false “bonafides.”

Nice derailment. Arguing about what Obama said and ponting out what he didn’t say? How do YOU know that Obama won’t do anything about Gitmo? Or about renditions? Generally speaking, president elects, who have not been sworn into office yet, generally speaking, THEY DON”T LEAD THE COUNTRY YET!!!!!!! You can CLAIM all day long that he will or won’t do this or that, but it is meaningless, unless your magickal crystal ball is showing you the future. Is that what it is?

And WTF is up with you hard-on for Clinton? What does Clinton (how LONG ago was he president?) have to do with this at all? Oh, right, you’re a brain-dead reichwinger who can only spew propoganda that has been beaten into your thick skull, and the biggest part of that propoganda is, “It’s Clinton’s fault.” What a cartload of horse S hit. F^$k Clinton — he is not president, not president elect, and won’t BE president again.

Clinton is, by all appearances, YOUR yardstick, but he is not mine, nor most others here.

wikipedia? really?

ugh

did you look at the links in the google post. the only two respectable sources on that page are the bbc and amnesty international… both of them only cite examples from the bush years and neither article says anything about clinton, interestingly enough

i haven’t seen you mention a book, you’ve mentioned people and what they said. books have titles, publishers, and copywrite dates.

what amazon reading list? this is very grade school

will you stop bickering about who can produce the better internet sources and read a book. Scholarly sources from university presses or books written by primary sources are where educated people get their information…. you should try it, there are these cool places called libraries and if you get something published by a university press it means its been fact-checked by at least 10 professors, usually 20 (depending on which press it is)

my favorite quote from your bickering was “produce facts.. you know, links?” hilarious.

if this talk of books, libraries and university presses was over your head, then try this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUkpR2Q6Oy8