O’Reilly’s Christmas paranoia: They want to ‘revoke’ Christmas!
By on Dec 11th, 2008 at 11:29 am
O’Reilly’s Christmas paranoia: They want to ‘revoke’ Christmas!
Last night, Bill O’Reilly continued his crusade against an atheist plaque on display next to a nativity scene inside Washington’s state capitol building. Asked her opinion on the matter, Fox & Friends host Gretchen Carlson declared, “[T]his is a complete insult to Christianity!” O’Reilly agreed and warned that if atheists are not stopped, their next move would be to “revoke” Christmas as a federal holiday. Watch it:
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Rats! They’re onto us! They’re just too smart for us.
Memo to O’Lielly: “Paranoia will destroy ya.”
You have to wonder if these Christmas fear mongers realize they’re taking a holiday based on love and charity and making it into just another occasion for divisive and hateful wedge politics.
December 11th, 2008 at 11:32 amThe imaginary war on Christmas is my favorite part of the holiday.
December 11th, 2008 at 11:34 amFox & Friends host Gretchen Carlson declared, “[T]his is a complete insult to Christianity!
Gretchen, you & Billdo are a complete insult to humanity…
December 11th, 2008 at 11:35 amI don’t care for the atheist sign much, it does seem a bit insulting.
However – the Festivus group? THEM’s my kinda people!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festivus#The_Festivus_Pole
December 11th, 2008 at 11:36 amIt’s Christmas a complete insult to atheists?
December 11th, 2008 at 11:36 amChristianity thinks you right-wingers don’t know what the hell you’re talking about.
December 11th, 2008 at 11:37 amSo, let me get this straight: It’s okay if you are a christian to belittle or criticize or mock or insult atheists, but if you are an atheist, then you can’t treat christians the same way?
Nope, it’s not quite sinking in yet. I’m still not getting it.
December 11th, 2008 at 11:39 amHappy Solstice, Bill! – from an atheist
December 11th, 2008 at 11:41 amThe State of Washington is driving the Wing-nut/Rightard/Flying Monkeys outta their rabid-ass skulls.
December 11th, 2008 at 11:41 amHansel and his very stupid, annoying, ignorant sister, Gretchen.
December 11th, 2008 at 11:41 amI love that line about how free speech is fine, just not on December 25. The First Amendment is the FIRST for a reason, you morons!
December 11th, 2008 at 11:42 amO’Reilly finds time between hate rants to give his screech du jour over a non-issue. No one is trying to eliminate Christmas!
But BillO? If you believe yourself to be a true Christian, how about turning to your bible for some perspective on how you should live? I believe there are plenty of guidelines that may help, such as judge not lest ye be judged, love thy neighbor as thyself (and in your case that’s a LOT of love!) and blessed be the peacemakers.
With so-called Christians like this, no wonder Jesus wept.
PEACE
December 11th, 2008 at 11:43 amSimple answer BillO: remove all the holiday signs and scenes from the government building. If not, all opinions on religion must be permitted.
Even simpler answer for the simple man: Shut Up! (and “do it live!”)
December 11th, 2008 at 11:44 amThat’s seems to be correct….some are subtle but it’s just as insulting…..see keltoi’s post below for an example. People like this don’t mind insulting others…..god is on thier side.
keltoi and his ilk seem to think that morality is owned by religion…..
December 11th, 2008 at 11:48 am
“[T]his is a complete insult to Christianity!” O’Reilly agreed and warned that if atheists are not stopped, their next move would be to “revoke” Christmas as a federal holiday.
No, the next move will be O’Reilly, demanding that atheists show the courage of their convictions and refuse the paid holiday.
December 11th, 2008 at 11:49 amBill and Gretchen are going to really hate this one then:
Jesus was born on June 17 in the year 2BC!
Daily Telegraph Dec.9, 2008 http://tinyurl.com/5586t2
December 11th, 2008 at 11:50 amTo which I would reply: “Fine, when you refuse your veteran’s day holiday pay – ’cause you’ve never been a vet, O Reilly.”
December 11th, 2008 at 11:53 amWell if the oppressive atheist majority do revoke Christmas, would Santa Claus deserve a bailout?
December 11th, 2008 at 11:56 amVast intellects the likes of which you have never seen, want to know!
It’s not just a matter of Atheists, there is also the inconvenient truth that there are a lot of people in this country who believe in a different religion than Christianity.
Keltoi Says:
I don’t care for the atheist sign much, it does seem a bit insulting.
And what is insulting about the sign? Is it insulting that someone has a view that is different than yours? That’s what is wrong with people like you. Personally, I find you insulting.
December 11th, 2008 at 11:57 amhttp://www.zeitgeistmovie.com
December 11th, 2008 at 11:57 amzeitgeist movie
December 11th, 2008 at 11:58 amDear TP. Why do you insist on carrying the rants and raves of this certifiable lunatic? There are so many other real news topics out there – Barack’s news conference for one – that it makes absolutely no sense to report all the time on every nonsensical thing said on Fixed News. Thirty percent of Americans get their “news” from Fixed News. That means 70 percent of us DONT. Let the 30 percent wallow in their stupidity while you keep the rest of us informed about real issues. Please?
December 11th, 2008 at 11:58 amO’lilie has the mind of a spoiled child, much like bull shit bush…
Well billo if you don’t like it fair how about not at all…I’m with #16 PLC and other’s on this issue…Let every faith or non faith post their own sign’s along with the christian’s or let none…I also think we need stronger backing of the law “seperation of church and state”. Thank you very much…P.B,& J
December 11th, 2008 at 11:59 amThe guy doesn’t practice what he preaches, so personally I see no reason to pay attention to it. He knows there’s no war on Christmas and the second he wants to sell something it’s labeled as a “holiday” item instead of a “Christmas” item. There’s no way that guy can’t affect the names of crap he sells on his Web site.
I wish there would be some Liberal Week of No O’Reilly or something. I’d like to see how heavily impacted his ratings would be if people who hate him didn’t watch the show. I wouldn’t be surprise if the difference was massive, but then again it seems like a lot of people watch video clips online instead.
December 11th, 2008 at 11:59 amBilbo Hussein Baggins Says:
——————————————————————————–
It’s not just a matter of Atheists, there is also the inconvenient truth that there are a lot of people in this country who believe in a different religion than Christianity.
Keltoi Says:
I don’t care for the atheist sign much, it does seem a bit insulting.
And what is insulting about the sign? Is it insulting that someone has a view that is different than yours? That’s what is wrong with people like you. Personally, I find you insulting.
Meh. To have a sign saying religion hardens hearts and enslaves minds put up next to a religious display…it does seem a bit insulting, and I think that was probably the intent.
I assume the atheists post such signs next to Ramadan displays?
But I am not Christian, not even remotely, so it is no great shakes to me. It seems impolite, even though it is their right to be so.
Were the Nativity scene to have a little sign saying “Those who do not accept Christ as Lord will burn in eternal perdition”, I would find that insulting too.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:02 pmWe wouldn’t even know what Christmas is, with Wal-Mart’s holiday sales reports front and center.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:03 pmInsulting? Here’s what the sign says: “Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds”.
That’s an opinion shared by a small but significant minority in our country. It’s an opinion that anyone has a right to express in any way they would like. I find it insulting that evangelical christians think I’m destined to spend an eternity in hellfire – what could be a more violent, demeaning and insulting opinion than that? Yet, they feel fine, even proud expressing that. So frack em!
December 11th, 2008 at 12:04 pmbarfly Says:
To which I would reply: “Fine, when you refuse your veteran’s day holiday pay – ’cause you’ve never been a vet, O Reilly.”
December 11th, 2008 at 11:53 am
Falaffel Bill doesn’t work ANY holidays. Or any weeks with holidays in them.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:04 pmI wonder if O’Rielly is aware of the fact that at the time of our constitution’s signing, it was illegal to celebrate christmas in many large colonial cities including Boston and New York. At the time, it was considered a British tradition.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:06 pmI don’t understand why people of faith get upset when I mock their god. If Jesus is the answer and I think he’s just a joke gone bad, then the Christians are right and they won’t have nanlichi to piss on their halos for eternity.
They win, I lose. I am ok with that, why aren’t they?
Or could it be that they aren’t really secure in the belief that the Bearded Wonder is running the check point to heaven?
I figure that anything I can do to piss off the likes of O’Reilly is a good thing. My back window has a picture of Calvin pissing on a fish. I meet the nicest people that way.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:07 pmI might be agreeing with Keltoi here. Don’t get me wrong, I only have distain for the Faux intent to inflame Christmas with hatred (nothing says Peace on Earth like a car bomb ?)
But if this is the sign I saw a picture of, the sign didn’t seemed to be more a diatribe against religion. While I could easily see, say, the Wiccans putting up a Yule Log (assuming the fire code would let them keep it flaming??), the sign I saw was hardly “live and let live”.
OTOH – as a Christian (or at least try to be), I am amazed that these “War on Christmas” folks don’t seem to realize that in history, Christianity has mainly been the minority religion – and one could possibly argue that it flourished more when it was a minority religion. Also that when it was the majority religion, it suffered by being diluted by an undue influence. Or to go fundamentalist: “Be ye in the world but not of the world”
December 11th, 2008 at 12:07 pmKeltoi Says:
I assume the atheists post such signs next to Ramadan displays?
December 11th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
_________
What’s a Ramadan display, exactly? A statue of a really hungry guy with bad breath who’s got the shakes cause he hasn’t had a cigarette since dawn?
December 11th, 2008 at 12:09 pmi’m an atheist, i like christmas… cookies, pie, presents, delicious home cooked meal… whats not to like about christmas
i know jews who celebrate christmas, lets face it its more fun then hannukah (sorry guys)
you don’t have to believe in christianity to dig on christmas its a pagan holiday that the church stole anyways.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:10 pmIf we don’t insult O’Reilly by constantly pointing out what a dunce he is who will. I think it’s imperative that TP give us an opportunity to post of the stupidity of O’Reilly, Limbaugh, Hannity, etal.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:10 pmIf liberals had declared war on Christmas, Christmas would be toast.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:10 pmKeltoi Says:
Meh. To have a sign saying religion hardens hearts and enslaves minds put up next to a religious display…it does seem a bit insulting, and I think that was probably the intent.
I took it as getting the bang for their buck, in a sense. Atheists rarely have an opportunity to be heard, and I found this to be relatively mild compared to the usual “only stupid people believe in god” ranting I’ve heard from some of them.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:12 pmNanlichi: “I don’t understand why people of faith get upset when I mock their god.”
A thinking person of faith in the 21st century cannot help but be confronted with cognitive dissonance. Maybe what’s going on here is an angry reaction to being reminded in some small way that they don’t really know god exists – they’re just pretending to know god exists. And maybe the possibility that they’re wrong makes them angry. Buddhists don’t get angry when you mock their religion. Usually, they just smile. I’ve got quite a few problems with Buddhism, but I like that about its adherents.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:13 pmOnward Christmas soldiers,
December 11th, 2008 at 12:14 pmMarching as to War,
With the flag of Wal-Mart,
Going on Before…
Did j’all get your Festivus Pole yet??
December 11th, 2008 at 12:14 pmOne can poke fun at Xian public displays of religiousity without poking fun at good Christian folk. O’Bigot doesn’t get it.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:14 pmYeah, because those Ramadan displays are everywhere. No wonder you’re defending O’Reilly, you think just like him.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:15 pmKeltoi Says
December 11th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
I assume the atheists post such signs next to Ramadan displays?
____________________________________________________________
I have never seen a “Ramadan display”, or any kind of display celebrating an Islam holiday, since Muslims tend to forgo showy displays and crass commericialism. Plus — any visual depiction of the prophet Muhammed (or any other prophet, for that matter — Jesus included) is strictly forbidden.
HOWEVER — If Muslims waged a constant battle to have displays celebrating their holidays erected on public property and in government buildings, if they demanded that students in public schools be subject to teacher-led Muslim prayer facing Mecca, if they insisted that sharia law be the law of our land, if they boldly picketed every place that sold alcohol or pork products — in other words, if they demanded their religion be as omnipresent in everyone’s faces as Christians demand — then you can bet that atheists would be posting a similar sign next to their displays.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:16 pmKeltoi: “I assume the atheists post such signs next to Ramadan displays?”
I don’t believe there is any such thing. Within their rules, they can’t even show a depiction of Mohammed. And, by the way, according to Matthew, open public displays of faith were not really Jesus’ bag either.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:17 pmNow that they are out of power, these people become more insane by the day . . . and that is saying something. They continue to marginalize themselves which is a VERY good thing. In power, these people are dangerous; Lord of the Flies on the adult level.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:17 pmBildo the Sexual Predator Vibrator Using Pervert knows soooo much, my is just too smart for us.
No, Bildo, we Atheist love Christmas, we just think your type of Christianity is an abomination of the real teachings of Christ, and by the way, there still is no such thing as god, just thought you would like to know.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:18 pmTHIS IS NOT A ZERO-SUM GAME!!!! Christians are NOT being locked up for their beliefs, they are not being discriminated against, and they are in no danger of having Christmas being banned as a holiday.
The whole point of the Washington atheists’ sign was to bring attention to the absurdity of having religious displays on public property. Some may be offended by what the sign said, but no one has a right to not be offended.
Having said that, I am offended each and every year by the confusing mix of scripture and capitalism that defines Christmas as we know it today. The gospel stories about the birth of Jesus are not historical documents nor are they true in any sense. Placing nativity displays on public property is an unnecessary and unconstitutional mixture of religion and government.
There are soooooooo many churches. Why can’t Christians be satisfied with putting up nativity displays, etc. on their own property? Why does a city, county, state or the Federal government have to allow such displays?
If Christians don’t want to have atheists or other religious groups to put up potentially-offensive displays alongside the nativity display, then I suggest they keep their displays for themselves and leave public property out of it.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:18 pmThat’s an excellent point, Keltoi.
Think about it, people; out of the dozens, perhaps hundreds of Ramadan displays we all encounter daily during that time of year, have you ever noticed a single sign of protest from an atheist group?
I rest my case.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:18 pmI love how they’re interviewing each other on that network. What, was dick morris too busy sucking the toes of the baby jesus in the chreche?
and Keltoi, until you have evidence of a US municipal Muslim holiday display, shut up.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:19 pmI used to be one of those unmilitant atheists, but Billo is pissing me off.
Screw you, Billo – and screw the baby Jesus, too.
HAH! Take that!!!!
December 11th, 2008 at 12:20 pmMy favorite Xian poke
December 11th, 2008 at 12:20 pmWhen recently I was trying to catch a ferry at the downtown Seattle dock, hordes of Xians were jaywalking across the main thoroughfare on their way to a Promise Keeper’s rally at SafeCo Field. My brother, certain that we were going to miss the ferry remarked, “Where’s all the lions when you really eed them?”
MapleStreet Says:
I might be agreeing with Keltoi here. Don’t get me wrong, I only have distain for the Faux intent to inflame Christmas with hatred (nothing says Peace on Earth like a car bomb ?)
But if this is the sign I saw a picture of, the sign didn’t seemed to be more a diatribe against religion. While I could easily see, say, the Wiccans putting up a Yule Log (assuming the fire code would let them keep it flaming??), the sign I saw was hardly “live and let live”.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
_________
I’m with you here. I’m all for their right to post it in the public sphere, but it’s not the type of message that’s going to bring a whole lot of people to their side. It’s an unproductive passive-aggressive raspberry against all of religion.
I much prefer the ads the American Humanist Association has been running in DC: “Why believe in a god? Just be good for goodness’ sake.” It seems like a much more positive, effective message.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:21 pmKeltoi don’t be silly atheists are scared to death of Allah (or at least his followers) they wouldn’t dare go after Muslims.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:21 pm“Dave Reneke, former chief lecturer at the Port Macquarie Observatory in New South Wales who now is news editor of Sky and Space magazine, said complex computer software was used to map the night sky as it would have appeared over Bethlehem 2,000 years ago.The research pinpoints the date of Christ’s birth as June 17 rather than Dec. 25, The Times of London reported Tuesday”. Link.
So they hold their holiday when everybody else celebrated their winter festivals and then want it to be exclusively Christian. Typical.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:22 pmGretchen Carlson declared, “[T]his is a complete insult to Christianity!”
Note to Gretchen: Insulting Christianity is perfectly legal.
Deal with it, sweetheart.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:22 pmBill worships the Plastic Jesus. Seems to have no knowledge of his actual teachings.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:22 pmRe: “I don’t understand why people of faith get upset when I mock their god.”
For me it’s much simpler than 49erDem suggests. I sometimes experience that mocking as telling me I am stupid and wrong in exercising my right to believe what I want at whatever level I want. I see this as too close to the fundies on the other end telling me I am sinful and destined for hell because I don’t hold to their beliefs. Neither is very polite or civil in my opinion.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:23 pmAbout 15 years ago, in a small town in UpState NY I was babysitting my toddle nephew. (there had been a medical emergency that required his mom and dad to take sister to the hospital) My girfriend and I were bored, so we took him up to the nativity scene in the middle of town, took the baby jesus out of the manger and put him in, and took his picture. That was our Christmas card the next year. Mom was the only one who thought it was funny…
December 11th, 2008 at 12:25 pmtoasty~ “Why believe in a god? Just be good for goodness’ sake.”
Sounds like a good idea, and Santa thinks so too!
December 11th, 2008 at 12:25 pmLeftside Annie Says:
Gretchen Carlson declared, “[T]his is a complete insult to Christianity!”
Note to Gretchen: Insulting Christianity is perfectly legal.
Gotta wonder if Father O’Sullivan ever noticed be giving him the finger (behind my back of course) at 12:30 Mass in fifth grade?
December 11th, 2008 at 12:27 pmFor Billo…
Oh little clown of TV land,
December 11th, 2008 at 12:28 pmhow shrill we hear thee cry,
your twisted thoughts insanely seep,
from Fox News glowing screen.
Yet in your dark heart lingers,
an everlasting blight,
the hate and fear of things unknown,
will haunt you through the night.
Frog is my chosen deity. Insults and neglect run like water off his back. How many yards and bookshelves secretly sport their display of FROG Worship. ribit!
December 11th, 2008 at 12:29 pmDecember 11th, 2008 at 12:23 pm
I to have noticed that whether they be pushing religion or atheism fundies all act the same.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:29 pmcd Says:
Keltoi don’t be silly atheists are scared to death of Allah (or at least his followers) they wouldn’t dare go after Muslims.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:21 pm
_________
Why exactly would atheists be scared of Christians or Jews or any other followers of Allah?
December 11th, 2008 at 12:30 pmChristmas isn’t about religion, it’s about shopping. Gretchen should know that at least.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:31 pm“or any other followers of Allah?”
I think Jewish people would resent your claim that they follow Allah.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:31 pmcd Says:
I think Jewish people would resent your claim that they follow Allah.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
_________
Are you saying that all Jews are atheists?
December 11th, 2008 at 12:32 pmDecember 11th, 2008 at 12:32 pm
Have you ever met a Jew who said s/he followed Allah?
December 11th, 2008 at 12:33 pmcd Says:
“or any other followers of Allah?”
I think Jewish people would resent your claim that they follow Allah.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
_________
Sure, some might be confused. They use a different name, after all. “Elohim” is like a full vowel and an extra consonant away from its Proto-Semitic relative, “Allah.” But they’re the same word for the same concept.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:34 pmcd Says:
Have you ever met a Jew who said s/he followed Allah?
December 11th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
________
Yup. All of them.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:35 pmCurlew: Why do you insist on carrying the rants and raves of this certifiable lunatic?
I sympathize with you, BUT…O’Reilly does actually represent a “real issue” which is that he legitimizes nonsense. It’s not that we know it’s rubbish, it’s that 30% of the population thinks such nonsense is important and ‘real’.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:36 pmThe failure to challenge lies and nonsense played their part in the last disastrous eight years, the consequences of which are still to be fully realized.
Despite Obama’s victory (and the results of 2000 and 2004) Liberals and progressive ( even ‘centrist’)thought are grossly underrepresented in the media. Demagogues like O’Reilly motivate morons with single issue excuses affect policy and they still have influence of discourse and perceptions.
A change of government does not mean a change of the media that describes that government. So yeah this kind of thing IS important, in context.
BFD BFD BFD
The celebration of Christmas has denigrated into nothing more than a grab-fest by greedy merchants and unwitting customers. It is religious in name only.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:37 pm“They use a different name”
Oh good I’m glad to see you understand the difference.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:37 pmcd Says
December 11th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
Have you ever met a Jew who said s/he followed Allah?
________________________________________________________
Just the ones who speak Arabic, since “Allah” is just the Arabic word for “God”.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:38 pmFrog is fine with the retail stimulus known as Christmas, but he would really like to have Bill “revoked”.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:38 pmcd Says:
“They use a different name”
Oh good I’m glad to see you understand the difference.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:37 pm
__________
Yup. It’s a really simple concept. Why are you having so much difficulty with it?
December 11th, 2008 at 12:39 pmI think it’s the hypocricy that offends, at least speaking for myself. Most of the christains can’t run thier own lives but they insist on running mine.
It’s as missmolly pointed out @ 45. christians insisting that thier religion be omnipresent & in everyone’s faces……to the exclusion of all others……..
December 11th, 2008 at 12:40 pmmisshusseinmolly Says:
Just the ones who speak Arabic, since “Allah” is just the Arabic word for “God”.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
____________
“The God,” to be exact. “Lah,” is the Arabic word for “a god,” and “Al” is the definite article…
December 11th, 2008 at 12:41 pmAnd “elohim” and “allah” both translate to English simply as “god”.
By the way, Christ’s name was actually “Ya Shua” (meaning I Save). Paul and the Gentiles used the Greek translation for I Save, “Je Sus”. A more direct translation to English would have Christians calling Christ “Joshua”. Boy, would that set off bitblt if I told him I believed in the divinity of Joshua Christ!
December 11th, 2008 at 12:41 pmDecember 11th, 2008 at 12:39 pm
I’m not the one who made a claim and later took it back.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:42 pmFROG thinks the Jesus story is a nice story, but rather weak compared to the TRANSFORMATIONAL power of changing from a tadpole that swims in water to FROG that hops on land or climbs in trees. WOW. ribit!
December 11th, 2008 at 12:42 pmralph the wonder llama Says:
——————————————————————————–
Keltoi Says:
Meh. To have a sign saying religion hardens hearts and enslaves minds put up next to a religious display…it does seem a bit insulting, and I think that was probably the intent.
I assume the atheists post such signs next to Ramadan displays?
That’s an excellent point, Keltoi.
Think about it, people; out of the dozens, perhaps hundreds of Ramadan displays we all encounter daily during that time of year, have you ever noticed a single sign of protest from an atheist group?
I rest my case.
Sigh. I think you deliberately ignore the point, that since Christians are the majority they get targeted by the tiny minority of atheists while the slightly larger minority of Muslim faith get a pass. In other words, this is far more politically motivated than spiritually motivated, or so it seems to me.
Missmolly at 45, I take your meaning, and while all those things may have been done historically, you sure don’t see them happening now, and when they do, the “Christians” perpetrating them tend to be lunatic fringe groups, like the whack jobs that go to KIA funerals with “God Loves Dead Soldiers” signs to protest the fact there are gay people in America.
I dunno. I said I found it a bit insulting, and I get cast as the intolerant one. What I really find it is needlessly rude. Christmas and Christ mean a lot to a lot of people – I am not one of them, but I think I can at least understand why they would find the sign offensive.
Festivus is just funny. And at least you DO something at Festivus. I mean, how do Atheists celebrate solstice?
December 11th, 2008 at 12:43 pmPLC
My experiences have been that christians who are very much NOT fundamentalists have the staunch belief that they know what is right and good for everyone else — ESPESCIALLY non-christians, and they are very willing to oppress others in whatever ways they can to try to impose their religion or at least their religious dogma on others. I am not making a blanket statement, there are always exceptions, but this has been the norm in my experience.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:46 pmDecember 11th, 2008 at 12:40 pm
Fred most Christians don’t want to run your life.
Fact is though the atheist plaque wasn’t a symbol of their beliefs but an attack on others.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:46 pmWe drink the blood of Christian babies, Keltoi.
How else??
December 11th, 2008 at 12:47 pmI have been screwed in business transactions more by Christians. Don’t trust ‘em!
December 11th, 2008 at 12:47 pm“The God,” to be exact. “Lah,” is the Arabic word for “a god,” and “Al” is the definite article…
Hence, the phrase, Lah,Lah Land to indicate the delusional.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:49 pmCageyCretin
A shared experience, I’m afraid! Of course, I’m reminded of a cartoon I saw once that depicted a book store with a huge display full of “self help” books while right next to it was another huge empty display labelled “advice to others” (or something similar). It’s human nature to insist that others be like us. I just try to fight that instinct in myself and confront others about demonstrating (which, paradoxically, is trying to change them, isn’t it!).
December 11th, 2008 at 12:51 pmKeltoi Says:
Sigh. I think you deliberately ignore the point, that since Christians are the majority they get targeted by the tiny minority of atheists while the slightly larger minority of Muslim faith get a pass. In other words, this is far more politically motivated than spiritually motivated, or so it seems to me.
Missmolly at 45, I take your meaning, and while all those things may have been done historically, you sure don’t see them happening now, and when they do, the “Christians” perpetrating them tend to be lunatic fringe groups, like the whack jobs that go to KIA funerals with “God Loves Dead Soldiers” signs to protest the fact there are gay people in America.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:43 pm
_____________
Of course it’s political. It’s all political. Religion or lack thereof has nothing to do with it.
Do you think Christian groups are pushing to have nativity scenes placed on public property simply to show their love for Jesus? Of course not! They’re putting these displays up as a political message, in order to challenge any offended Atheist or Agnostic or Hindu or Muslim to make a case out of it. And once someone does make a case of it, the Christian group then gets to play defense and wail about how Christianity is being attacked.
It’s theater, a circus, nothing more – and O’Reilly is the ringleader.
But I don’t believe it’s right to say that pushing for religious-based policy was done in the past but isn’t being done now. There are still plenty of groups trying to have Intelligent Design inserted into school science curricula around the country. There are plenty of groups pushing for bans and restrictions on abortion and contraception. There are plenty of groups pushing for “defense of marriage” laws – with some recent success in California. It’s not just the Fred Phelps folks.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:52 pmRead these threads and so many like them all across the Net and you can see what the Magic Man in the sky hath wrought: half the world killing each other over that mythological old fool; People believing that the earth is 6k years old.
The Culture of Ignorance is alive . . . for the moment. Watching it die, thanks to the Internet, is quite enjoyable.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:52 pmLeftside Annie Says:
We drink the blood of Christian babies, Keltoi.
How else??
Ha! I thought that was the pagan Romans, Annie.
I was thinking like maybe a Nietzche reading…
December 11th, 2008 at 12:53 pmNo, Keltoi, I didn’t miss your point.
Since your point rested on a false equivalence between the ubiquity of Christmas displays, and some imagined world where “Ramadan displays” go unmolested, I found your argument to be foolishly presented, and ripe for sarcastic response.
To address your clarified point as expressed above, you seem to be decrying the very nature of human political reality.
Minorities who feel oppressed, even in the slight way that atheists must feel oppressed by Christians in our culture, generally act out against the majority, not against other minorities (unless the majority power structure, in a “divide and conquer” strategy, succeeds in pitting one minority group against another, as some have tried with blacks and Hispanics, for example).
Either way, your point is silly.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:54 pmKeltoi Says:
Sigh. I think you deliberately ignore the point, that since Christians are the majority they get targeted by the tiny minority of atheists while the slightly larger minority of Muslim faith get a pass. In other words, this is far more politically motivated than spiritually motivated, or so it seems to me.
Keltoi, I think it’s you missing the point. I don’t see how you can accuse atheists of “giving Muslims a pass” when they don’t have any opportunity to do anything else. There are no “Muslim displays” in our public places. You may as well suggest they’re given Wiccans a pass. Or Buddhists.
In this country, the only religious culture that has an unquestioned, persistent and pervasive presence is Christianity. In this country, the only religious group that attempts to impose its belief system on everyone is Christianity.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:54 pmWell said, HTH. Well said.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:56 pmKeltoi
but I think I can at least understand why they would find the sign offensive.
I can see that. That, however, was almost certainly the point. It is displayed in a public place. By displaying imagery specific to a single religion, regardless of how many people in a country that is supposed to be founded on inclusion with a secular governing body that is not supposed to show preference for ANY religious beliefs, it legitimizes the religion itself from the political standpoint — such displays are a blantant governmental support of that religion, and to support a religion is to support its dogma. These people are insulted regularly by these displays that tout christianity and deny others.
As athiests, they are offended by religious beliefs being foisted upon them, and that is what a public display does. I have heard no one claiming that a church cannot put a nativity scene on its grounds, nor that you can’t place a 10′ plaque of the 10 commandments on your front lawn. But for a government building or institution to do so IS in ITSELF offensive to those who do not accept that religion. Therefore, it is within their rights to have that plaque, which merely states their belief. Some may find it insulting, yes, but some also find public displays of christian mythology on public grounds to be insulting.
Include all or none.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:56 pmCome Spring, the chorus of FROG will deafening. Prepare for the great Transformation. ribit!
December 11th, 2008 at 12:58 pmNevar @# 63 ~ Rave!!
December 11th, 2008 at 12:59 pmjb, I think there’s a coven of them next door, and they hold secret black masses at night around our neighborhood detention pond…
December 11th, 2008 at 1:00 pmI am only human…should read, “be deafening”. My humblest croaking apologies.
December 11th, 2008 at 1:00 pmcd Says:
I’m not the one who made a claim and later took it back.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:42 pm
__________
I didn’t take it back. I stand by my assertion that Jews follow Allah.
I further add that they also follow Dios, Déu, 上帝, Bog, Bůh, Jumala, Gott, Θεός, भगवान, Dewa, 神, Dievs, Divinitate, Бог, and Chúa.
December 11th, 2008 at 1:03 pmRUC, The power of Frog knows no limits. Totally pervasive.
December 11th, 2008 at 1:03 pmjb Says:
“Frog is fine with the retail stimulus known as Christmas, but he would really like to have Bill “revoked”.”
As is L. Ron Hoover of the First Church of Appliantology.
Shop! I command you!
May the Toaster be with you.
December 11th, 2008 at 1:03 pmAmen.
Of course mocking Christianity has nothing to do with spirituality, that’s exactly the point. If I were surrounded by Muslims and had that religion pushed in my face, I would gladly dry my dogs with a prayer rug (or at least say I did). It just so happens that the sanctimonious, pious, self righteous people I run into are mostly Christian. And I push back.
There are many of us who don’t feel like ANY of the religions have one fcking clue, much less the one and only divine answer they lay claim to.
There is a bright line between the Christians who read the Bible to better themselves and their and others’ lives, and the sanctimonious pricks like Billo who wield their religion like a club and demand we all worship his idol.
How presumptuous for a person to think that any religion is right and only their religion is right? Of course I mock them.
The nanlichis celebrate Christmas, tree with a star, presents, carols, yule log… the whole enchilada, but it has nothing to do with Jesus.
December 11th, 2008 at 1:04 pmPatrioticLiberalChristian Says:
I just try to fight that instinct in myself and confront others about demonstrating (which, paradoxically, is trying to change them, isn’t it!).
Ha!!! Made me laugh!!! :):)
I would suppose, though, that most communication COULD be argued as “trying to change someone’s opinion”. But informing people is one thing. The Golden Rule is useful when taken to heart — and likely if YOU were being oppressive to some other person or persons unknowingly, you would probably be appreciative of having it pointed out — or even to have someone point out to you that you were straying from your religious beliefs. THAT is not trying to ‘change’ someone as much as it is advising someone.
December 11th, 2008 at 1:05 pmRalph, Gummitch, Toasterhead, always I good day when I get to see you all on the site simultaeneously.
Okay, I retract the Muslim comment.
hussein toasterhead Says:
But I don’t believe it’s right to say that pushing for religious-based policy was done in the past but isn’t being done now. There are still plenty of groups trying to have Intelligent Design inserted into school science curricula around the country.
Key word trying. I recall Kansas becoming a national laughing stock a few years back when they succeeded and they have since backed off.
There are plenty of groups pushing for bans and restrictions on abortion and contraception.
Abortion can be a moral issue distinct from your religious views. I am very conflicted about unfettered late term abortion and it has more to do with my humanity than my religion.
There are plenty of groups pushing for “defense of marriage” laws – with some recent success in California. It’s not just the Fred Phelps folks.
Here you have a point. However, that was done by process of law through an open and democratic vote. It isn’t what Missmolly describes in her scenario at 45.
December 11th, 2008 at 1:06 pmThat’s funny. What if I am gay or want an abortion?
The athiest belief is that religion is a tool of the powerful to be used against weak minds…….
Your mistake is in identifying the attackers.
December 11th, 2008 at 1:06 pmLividLib Says:
As is L. Ron Hoover of the First Church of Appliantology.
Shop! I command you!
May the Toaster be with you.
Amen.
December 11th, 2008 at 1:03 pm
____________
Um, did you just call me a latent appliance fetishist?
December 11th, 2008 at 1:06 pmI had a wart once, it was the sign from Frog which set me upon my path in search of the Holy Lily Pad.
December 11th, 2008 at 1:10 pm“Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds.”
One thing that I’ve noticed about the brouhaha over the display is all you hear is people saying, “I’m insulted, offended, being persecuted, etc.” Yet, no one of ANY religious belief has come out and said, “That’s not true.”
I’m just sayin’.
December 11th, 2008 at 1:11 pmBeware, jb: ORiley plans on having frog legs for his holiday dinner.
December 11th, 2008 at 1:12 pmAs confusion reighn’s let me put a quick spin on the christian, atheists, pagan thought’s as well as the inclusion of all other faith’s..First I believe there are as many faith’s or lack of as there are people walking the earth…In all group’s of believer’s, nonbeliever’s, no relegious group can provide a total adherance of any thinking person…Everyone on this earth take’s what ever they want from education and personal thought’s and make’s it their own…
The christian’s stole the pagan Yule and turned it into their christmas.BTW this year winter Solstice is Dec. 21.
.Many year’s ago I spoke at length with a Catholic priest who studied the bible in debth.He said he thought Jesus was born closer to Easter, now we have a new view it may have been in June…Well may I add the bible is merly a book, no diffrent in my view than one of my book’s of Shadow’s except the bible doe’s have a lot of fear and no herbal cure’s as I remember..
Seem’s to me the Pagan’s and Atheist’s have more tolerance and embrace all thought’s even when we don’t agree…I have never found either of these group’s starting war’s, nor do they demand all other’s follow their way or else..As I said before “Seperation of church and state” work’s for me and I respect all faith’s or lack of….My thing is “Harm None”……Blessings
December 11th, 2008 at 1:12 pmI found a picture of the atheist plaque which has Bildo so incensed.
December 11th, 2008 at 1:13 pmMy plaque will be removed tomorrow, the dentist knows me well enough not to question it’s origins.
December 11th, 2008 at 1:16 pmFrog worship. That is intriguing and attractive. A frog leg thrown in salt water, even after a day of separated from the body will keick and jerk as if alive. Maybe not strong enough to roll a big boulder, but the reborn concept works.
It’s settled. The star is coming down and Kermit gets to ride the tree top this year.
December 11th, 2008 at 1:16 pmcd Says:
Fred most Christians don’t want to run your life.
Fred Says:
That’s funny. What if I am gay or want an abortion?
What if you are a gay woman who was raped? You are not allowed to have an abortion, NOR are you allowed to marry to give the child you are to be forced to have unwillingly a family.
December 11th, 2008 at 1:19 pmSeem’s to me the Pagan’s and Atheist’s have more tolerance and embrace all thought’s even when we don’t agree…I have never found either of these group’s starting war’s, nor do they demand all other’s follow their way or else..As I said before “Seperation of church and state” work’s for me and I respect all faith’s or lack of….My thing is “Harm None”……Blessings
Well, Witch1, it requires an army to start a war and power to demand that you embrace another’s thoughts. When the Pagans had armies and power, they did that quite merrily, and used their religion as a tool to do so.
I quite agree with the rest of your post; since the Old Religions have been virtually stamped out, they have been freed from their association with secular authority and are much the better for it, just as the early Christian Church was much better off before Constantine got lucky at the Battle of Milvan Bridge.
December 11th, 2008 at 1:19 pmOn a total OT, I would like to nominate Nevar for most improved poster of 2008.
Some of the stuff you have come up with in the last couple of months is really good. (No, the plaque reference doesn’t make it.)
December 11th, 2008 at 1:21 pmOf course it CAN be distinct from religious views, but in the current debate it is seldom so.
What is this “unfettered late-term abortion” of which you speak? To my understanding, late-term abortions are available only in rare circumstances and strictly regulated.
I am conflicted about many imaginary and potential evils, but when I relax and realize that they don’t actually exist in our current reality, I find that conflict tends to subside.
December 11th, 2008 at 1:21 pmRaven is as powerful as Frog…sometimes they disagree, but mostly they laugh together at the funny humans.
December 11th, 2008 at 1:21 pmFirst off, as a militant agnostic, I find the atheist sign pretty arrogant.
December 11th, 2008 at 1:24 pmBut for all the Christians worried about Christmas being under attack:
Imagine a christmas stripped down to the biblical Christian symbols. No Christmas tree. No Santa Claus (dragged in from St.Nicholas’s day, Dec. 6–which was when my Swiss mother got her gifts), no holly, evergreens, mistletoe, or Yule Log–all terribly terribly pagan; no feasting, no presents, no reindeer, no celebration of snow or winter. That’s all borrowed.
We say ‘Christmas’, but the Scandinavian countries say “Yule’–the old pagan name. (The Frenchsay Noël, from Latin Natalis,birthday, while the Germans sy Weihnachten–blessed night.)
The old Yule festival was meant to celebrate the rebirth of the year, and the Solstivce–the first day that a lengthening of the day could be detected. The proslytiing Christians found it useful to plump Christ’s birth down at the point where the Sun–and the Year is reborn–kind of elegant, actually.
WE celebrate the return of the year in this country, and we aforn it with a litte bit of everything. Yule, Jesus, Frosty the Snowman, you name it.
Jesus Christ is a subset of the American Christmas–iincluded in it, but not all of it.
Get used to it.
to patrioticliberalchristian,
“For me it’s much simpler than 49erDem suggests. I sometimes experience that mocking as telling me I am stupid and wrong in exercising my right to believe what I want at whatever level I want. I see this as too close to the fundies on the other end telling me I am sinful and destined for hell because I don’t hold to their beliefs. Neither is very polite or civil in my opinion.”
try being an open atheist, if you express your points of view people accuse you of attacking their religion, being unamerican, tell you your condemned to hell (which doesn’t phase me because i don’t believe in it) etc.
if you can’t handle your beliefs being questioned and answering some tough questions about your beliefs then you need to question your beliefs because you haven’t found something your truly happy with.
i enjoy talking about me beliefs and like to tell people about what i believe and why, i found being open about my atheism to be a very liberating thing. if your beliefs don’t do that for you maybe asking some hard questions would be good for you.
and, being atheist doesn’t mean i see no value in religion, those texts can be great guides on morals and ethics, we should all read them all, keep the good and exclude the dogma. i don’t have a problem with religious morality, i do however have a problem with the dogma attached to it and how it warps views on reality. In a world dealing with climate change and a rapidly declining oil supply (we can’t feed people without oil) having people expecting the end of man kind via the apocalypse as part of god’s will is not a very constructive thing if survival of the species is a priority to you
December 11th, 2008 at 1:25 pmjb: Oreily plans on froglegs for dinner, and then 4 and 20 ravens in a pie.
I like ravens.
Gotta go. Have fun, all!!!!!!
December 11th, 2008 at 1:26 pmBecause it’s more fun than a box full of kittens!
December 11th, 2008 at 1:27 pmFrog will kick the crap out of Billo and that’s a lot of kicking, but Frog is the deity for the job.
December 11th, 2008 at 1:30 pmpbg at 123,
A crowning irony that should at least be mentioned here is that the celebration of Christmas was banned by the Puritans in colonial America because they rightly saw it as a pagan observance that had been grafted on to Christianity…
December 11th, 2008 at 1:32 pmA question: How many here would be in favor of revoking Christmas as a national holiday? I mean, when you think about it, since it is a religious holiday it really shouldn’t have any mention in law, right?
December 11th, 2008 at 1:33 pmKeltoi Says:
Ralph, Gummitch, Toasterhead, always I good day when I get to see you all on the site simultaeneously.
___________
Likewise!
Key word trying. I recall Kansas becoming a national laughing stock a few years back when they succeeded and they have since backed off.
____________
I don’t believe they’ll stay backed off for long. Remember the “answers in Genesis” folks also recently opened a Creation Museum, and a significant majority of Americans still believe in some form of creationism or intelligent design. I fully expect the anti-science forces to come back with a new tactic in the next few years.
Abortion can be a moral issue distinct from your religious views. I am very conflicted about unfettered late term abortion and it has more to do with my humanity than my religion.
________
True, it can be a moral issue without religious ties. However, so can war, free trade agreements, child labor, global poverty, farm subsidies, and climate change. Thing is, I don’t see the “Focus on the Family” type of religious groups adopting any of these as their pillar issues. They seem focused only on the abortion/gay marriage axis.
That said, I don’t mean to paint all religious or ecumenical groups with the same brush. There are plenty of religious-based organizations of all faiths that do some very good work fighting poverty and opposing war and pushing to preserve the planet. I’m talking about the big ones who spend millions of dollars on campaings for things like Proposition 8.
Here you have a point. However, that was done by process of law through an open and democratic vote. It isn’t what Missmolly describes in her scenario at 45.
December 11th, 2008 at 1:06 pm
Yes, and a lot of “first fruits” were spent by religious organizations – some not even in California – to get Proposition 8 passed. Yes, it was an open and democratic vote, but one heavily lobbied for by a lot of groups who wanted to ensure that their Talmudic law be the law of the land in California.
December 11th, 2008 at 1:34 pmA question: How many here would be in favor of revoking Christmas as a national holiday? I mean, when you think about it, since it is a religious holiday it really shouldn’t have any mention in law, right?
i’m for adding more holidays, lets have ramadan and hannukah off too.
i’ve been to indonesia several times, over there (the largest muslim nation in the world) they celebrate christmas too. it makes more people feel welcome in their country, boosts tourism around that time and is generally a gesture of inclusion in the society.
although i do agree with the atheist sign that a lot of minds are stolen by religion, there’s no sense in being militant about it, i just try to lead by example. I am an atheist but if tomorrow god came down from the heavens and started talkin about jesus… i’d have to change my point of view, but i NEED evidence beyond a book thats “the word of god” but if theres actual evidence for it, count me in… i go with what seems most logical based on the evidence. not what the most popular fiction around me is.
December 11th, 2008 at 1:41 pmcalavzma Says: if you can’t handle your beliefs being questioned and answering some tough questions about your beliefs then you need to question your beliefs because you haven’t found something your truly happy with… if your beliefs don’t do that for you maybe asking some hard questions would be good for you.
A lot of “ifs” in there. I’ve been posting at TP for at least two years and I don’t recall your screen name. Before you question my “handling” of my beliefs or ability to be asked or ask myself “hard questions”, you might want to check out my past posts.
December 11th, 2008 at 1:43 pmpatrioticliberalchristian, i’ve been reading for about 8 months… i just now joined the conversation.
whats wrong with someone encouraging you to ask questions?
my post may have come off harsher than i would have voiced it… but thats the working of the type, not the intention of the words, i’m just sayin… if i talk about my beliefs people think i’m a bad person, even though i don’t talk about hurting anyone and treating people well… just because i’m an atheist
a lot of christians hate atheists, and quite honestly, if you’re christian and you don’t think atheists are dangerous then you don’t take your religion very seriously… my ideas could condemn your child to hell, if you believe in that sort of thin (note this last paragraph not directed at you but in general)
December 11th, 2008 at 1:48 pmRHF:
December 11th, 2008 at 1:50 pmAgnostics and atheists are Not The Same Thing.
I don’t know whether or not there is a God. The Christians could very wellbe right. So could the atheists. So could the OTO.
But as the Christians have the Inquisition and John Calvin (and Pat Robertson) to deal with and apologize for, the atheists have Joe Stalin and Pol Pot (and Ayn Rand) to deal with and apologize for.
Human beings need no God to kill each other–indeed, they don’t seem to need any justification at all. Human Being’s hearts are not by nature soft, nor are their minds open. That’s Rousseauist nonsense. And humans can be taught virtue or vice using almost any belief system you care to give–whether it’s God’s Chose People or The Good Of the State or The Virtue of Selfishness.
My belief–is that Mankind is at its best when it is humble. Humility can be taught by the Grandeur of God OR the staggering immensity of the Universe. It cn also be taught by the impossibility of knowing much of anything. When Mankind is forced to consider and be careful, it does better–sometimes wonderfully better.
I stand by my opinion.
Keltoi Says:
A question: How many here would be in favor of revoking Christmas as a national holiday? I mean, when you think about it, since it is a religious holiday it really shouldn’t have any mention in law, right?
December 11th, 2008 at 1:33 pm
___________
Hell no. I don’t believe there are too many atheists opposed to having a day off.
I also, however, don’t believe that “separation of church and state” means that there should be reinforced concrete walls built between the two, and that government should never talk about religion, and churches and mosques should never talk about politics. I think that’s a gross misinterpretation of the concept.
To me, separation of church and state means that the two should not be in collusion with each other, with the church simultaneously dictating law and enforcing government corruption, as was happening in late-18th century England. This is a recipe for disaster.
But it doesn’t mean they have to pretend the other doesn’t exist. Government should work with ecumenical organizations like Habitat for Humanity in rebuilding a city after a disaster. Religious leaders should pressure the government for social justice in their communities. They just shouldn’t be arm-in-arm, that’s all.
December 11th, 2008 at 1:50 pmand maybe it would have been better to phrase it as hard questions about your religion. answering them repeatedly will only make you understand more why you believe what you do, or lead you to believe other things
either way= progress…… think progress liberal christian, think progress
December 11th, 2008 at 1:51 pmKeltoi Says:
Well, Witch1, it requires an army to start a war and power to demand that you embrace another’s thoughts. When the Pagans had armies and power, they did that quite merrily, and used their religion as a tool to do so.
Out of curiosity, what do you mean by “Pagans”? I’m not particularly fond of the term myself, if only because it’s so damn vague but also because it’s pejorative. In essence, the word means “not Christian” or at least “not of The Book.” I’m guessing that Witch1 was making a specific reference to the Old Religions, but I don’t necessarily get that from your reference to wars.
Again, mostly just curious.
December 11th, 2008 at 1:51 pmI don’t think we have a right to question others beliefs at all. I think that is the whole point of this thread.
December 11th, 2008 at 1:55 pmLividLib Says:
As is L. Ron Hoover of the First Church of Appliantology.
Joe’s Garage, gotta love that one.
December 11th, 2008 at 1:55 pmI really don’t give a rats arse about Billo’s ignorant, egotistical bullshit.
December 11th, 2008 at 1:57 pmBut after taking Lido for a walk at the mall, a lot ofpeople don’t seem to have the holiday/christmas spirit this year.
They don’t get paid to be a right wing jackass.
tony and lido
nanlichi Says: (No, the plaque reference doesn’t make it.)
I know… sometimes I try too hard.
Thanks for the kudos folks!
Here’s a tale for all of us Frogs and Ravens…
http://integral-options.gaia.com/blog/2006/7/folktale_raven_returns_the_water
December 11th, 2008 at 2:04 pmI don’t think we have a right to question others beliefs at all. I think that is the whole point of this thread.
we have an obligation to question peoples beliefs
what if no one questioned bush’s beliefs on torture, or the economy, if we just let anyone believe anything they want without questioning it we’re lost. We don’t have to respect peoples “beliefs” about history if they believe something factually incorrect we question that statement and then correct it.
i’m not saying we have to “correct” anything with religion that’d be a bit extreme, but the questions must be asked or people might never be exposed to other ideas.
December 11th, 2008 at 2:05 pmWell, we are talking about religious beliefs here. That’s what I’m talking about.
I think you have the right to believe what you believe. It is your right. I’m an athiest, I believe I have the right to be an athiest without having to justify it to anyone.
Likewise I don’t question a christains belief, I question the things they do in their gods name…..
Actions are different. Christains who impose thier belief on others are wrong in doing this. Same for any religion.
It just seems that if you attack christains for thier belief that it takes the discussion away from the issues.
I believe that Freedom of religion includes freedom from religion.
December 11th, 2008 at 2:13 pmKeltoi says:
I mean, when you think about it, since it is a religious holiday it really shouldn’t have any mention in law, right?
Workers’ right to have days off from work, or the right of women to vote, the ban of children labor, the 8 hour working journal, etc. have nothing to do with religious reasons.
December 11th, 2008 at 2:13 pmI wonder what’s in the doobe that Billo and Carlson are passing around during the Chia Pet commercials on fixed news?? The operative question is whether it’s cheeney mash, from chimpy or some of that special murduck OZ stash ??
Total IQ on set = 15….
December 11th, 2008 at 2:17 pmWhile the Bible doesn’t mention “Christmas”, here’s some interesting verses:
“For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter.”
–Jeremiah 10:3-4
Personally, I wouldn’t mind if someone revoked Christmas. I’m so freaking depressed that I have no money to get my kids anything I can hardly stand it. But at least they don’t have Bill-O as a parent to embarrass them every day on national TV.
December 11th, 2008 at 2:21 pmfred says:
It just seems that if you attack christains for thier belief that it takes the discussion away from the issues.
i elaborated on that… its not about attacking them for their beliefs, its asking them questions about it… if you don’t ask the questions it takes away from the discussion too, it in fact eliminates the discussion. if they have great answers minds might be changed, but thats a different debate.
why should religious beliefs be treated so differently from other beliefs?
December 11th, 2008 at 2:21 pmgummitch, you know me so well…You are correct I was refering to wiccan’s..Earth based pagan’s who used ritual’s, seasons, herb’s and moon sign’s rather than war’s to celebrate…Very similar to the native american way’s…
In all my book’s I can find no writing of wiccan’s, pagan’s starting war’s..Neither can I find either group burning christian’s at the steak or drowning people because they had a broom behind a door, mole on their body or owned a cat….But I have found much written about the church leader’s wanting the wealth and land the pegan’s had and so started up their belief system to take over all the wealth and land….Blessings
December 11th, 2008 at 2:21 pmI am not giving up two days at the end of the year, no way, but I wouldn’t mind if we renamed the holiday to The Holiday, or Thank God This Year is Almost Over, but Christmas isn’t just for Christians. Getting together with family and friends, eating too much, special treats, presents… there doesn’t have to be any religious nexus at all.
December 11th, 2008 at 2:23 pmA very interesting article on
“How a racist created the conservative movement’s favorite holiday season outrage — and has O’Reilly dreaming of a pure, white Christmas.”
“The White Nationalist Behind Bill O’Reilly’s War on Christmas”
http://www.alternet.org/story/111465/
December 11th, 2008 at 2:30 pmEh. Christmas, Valentine’s Day, Mother’s Day, Easter, Hallowe’en – the whole raft of holidays…
Brought to you by Hallmark – and Wal-Mart.
December 11th, 2008 at 2:31 pmgummitch Says:
Out of curiosity, what do you mean by “Pagans”?
I was thinking about polytheistic religions prior to the supremacy of Christianity as a monolitic religion in the West. Olmpians, Norse, Tuatha de Danann, etc.
I’m not particularly fond of the term myself, if only because it’s so damn vague
I think it is originally Latin for “country dweller” – Christianity was a largely urban faith in the early days
but also because it’s pejorative.
Not to anyone who understands it.
In essence, the word means “not Christian” or at least “not of The Book.” I’m guessing that Witch1 was making a specific reference to the Old Religions, but I don’t necessarily get that from your reference to wars.
Well, I celebrate some Wiccan holidays, notably Beltain and Samhain, and I think of those as stemming from the neolithic and Iron Age religions of the Celts. The Romans crushed the Celts militarily, then the Irish led a wave of Celtic conversion to Christianity, and at that point the Old Religion – which, correct me Witch1, I believe was the forerunner of modern Wicca – retreated completely to the shadows for fear of persecution.
The Celts ruled most of North Central Europe for many centuries. They had armies and were very warlike. Also, the Druids were a caste of Priests who wielded huge political power based on their religious standing.
Anyway, Tangent City. My point was, whenever any religion becomes dominant in a society, it begins to touch the secular which by definition taints the spiritual. Some religions do a better job at this than others, but I should point out the Celts regularly sacrificed animals and humans to their Gods, so it wasn’t all kumbaya.
December 11th, 2008 at 3:12 pmDamn, I’m late to this thread. :(
It was totally insulting to put up that Christmas display next to that atheist sign! Christians are so disrespectful to atheists.
December 11th, 2008 at 3:17 pmDuring this holiday season….lets not forget the true meaning of Christmas….A story written by a bunch of people who thought the world was flat!!! Enough Said.
Happy Holidays !!!!
December 11th, 2008 at 4:02 pmZooey, your comment was definitely worth the wait.
December 11th, 2008 at 4:43 pmGretchen Carlson, ” you can have your free speech just don’t do it on Dec 25″
What a constitutional scholar Gretchen Carlson is. I mean did Bush know of Gretchen when he named Harriet Miers for the supreme Court ? GW couldn’t have known of Gretchen at the time.
December 11th, 2008 at 7:22 pmWhy doesn’t O’Reily show everyone how it’s done, shake the dust off his sandals and turn the other cheek?
I hope he gets a self-crucification kit for Christmas.
December 11th, 2008 at 8:23 pmI call your mixer and raise you a bread machine. Praise the mighty APPLIANCE! Holy Holy Shop Shop.
December 11th, 2008 at 8:38 pmO’Reilly has nothing to fear!
The U.S. will NEVER revoke the “God” of its Christmas – SHOPPING!!!!!!!!!!!
December 12th, 2008 at 12:12 amDecember 11th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
The Christians have one god.
It happens to have multiple parts though much as an arms has a hand and fingers.
December 12th, 2008 at 12:13 amStill those Hindu gods have some much more character and often more arms…
December 12th, 2008 at 12:19 amO’Reilly’s an idiot and the war on Christmas a fantasy…
December 12th, 2008 at 12:19 am
I’m willing to be that for most atheists there is no war on Christmas.
They just want to wake up, go to work, come home and relax like everyone else.
However there are a few well organize atheists that do hate Christmas and would love to ruin peoples fun.
December 12th, 2008 at 12:37 amOh my two spelling errors.
Oh well.
December 12th, 2008 at 12:44 amI still think it is odd that O’Reilly never seems to get all bunched up on the war on easter. Unless of course it is more about marketing and less about convictions. Having never actually seen his show I can’t be sure but I think he is just another fellow like Rush and all the rest who simple get paid to read stuff that has been scripted for them by others who are selling a schtick they have created. The funny part is how many otherwise intelligent people buy the product.
December 12th, 2008 at 12:50 amWhat is Christmas? It certainly is not an anniversary of the birth of Christ. He was born fall. No really cold weather. And contrary to the fantacy stories told today, he was not born in a stable, but in a house. December 25 is simply old fantasy brought in by other pagan religions, just as many other of the dogma in todays Christian beliefs, that are not in any way scriptually true. In real, 25 December is simply a once a year day that our commercial interprizes take advantage of as they sell us their goods. It works. No complaints from me.
December 12th, 2008 at 2:08 pmcd Says:
There is no dispute that Allah which just means Lord IS the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. None whatsoever so they might not like it but it would be true.
December 12th, 2008 at 2:27 pmO’falafel is a joke and an idiot. Why would it be an insult to have an athiest plaque next to a nativity scene? It is not an insult to one belief to say you believe differently. Anymore than having a nativity scene next to an athiest plaque would be an insult to atheists. It is just plain ignorant to tell someone either they believe the way you do or they are insulting you. I know the right and especially Bill O’Moron try it all the time but its ludicrous on the face of it.
December 12th, 2008 at 2:29 pmDecember 12th, 2008 at 2:08 pm
Maybe you haven’t noticed but Pagans aren’t responsible for the sun being where it is in the sky on Christmas.
December 13th, 2008 at 12:32 pm“Why would it be an insult to have an athiest plaque next to a nativity scene?”
Might have something to do with the little rant on the plaque the likes of which only a nasty grandstanding twit or an outright dunce would have no objection too.
December 13th, 2008 at 12:33 pmBy displaying imagery specific to a single religion, regardless of how many sohbetpeople in a country that is supposed to be founded on inclusion with a secular governing body that is not supposedBedava mp3 indir to show preference for ANY religious beliefs, it legitimizes the religion itself from the political standpoint — such displays are a blantant governmental support of that cetreligion, and to support a religion is to support its dogma.
February 28th, 2009 at 10:34 am