Krugman: GOP has ‘no coherent theory’ behind obstructing economic stimulus package.
Krugman: GOP has ‘no coherent theory’ behind obstructing economic stimulus package.
Recently, Republicans leaders have been preparing for a fight over President-elect Obama’s economic stimulus package, which is designed to create three million new jobs, calling it “wasteful spending.” On MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow Show yesterday, Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman said that Republican leaders have “no coherent theory” behind their attacks, calling their obstructionism a mixture of “politics” and “suspicion.” Obama’s stimulus package may need to be bigger, he explained:
KRUGMAN: But we’ve lost 2 million in the past year. And we need more than a million extra jobs just to keep up with population growth. We’re already down 3 million jobs right now. … By the time any stimulus package gets going really, we’re going to be way down in the whole. Three million is not going to be enough actually to close the gap.
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The GOP is a complete disgrace. If they had any shame at all they’d just go away forever.
And for a good laugh:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103×412192
December 30th, 2008 at 12:09 pmListen up, all you right-wing knuckle-draggers. The Nobel Prize winning economist is shooting big holes in your strategy. Take heed.
December 30th, 2008 at 12:09 pmThe Republicans don’t need a “coherent theory” — the fact that the stimulus package is the Dems’ idea is enough reason for them to block it, no matter how much it’s needed.
Personally, I think they’re terrified that a Democratic president and a more heavily Democratic Congress will make some positive changes, which will make the GOP look even worse. Therefore, they must block, obstruct, snarl, and tangle up anything the Democrats attempt to do for the next four years. Then in 2012, they hope to run their candidates on a “See? They didn’t make anything any better!” platform.
December 30th, 2008 at 12:17 pmmisshusseinmolly Says:
“Therefore, they must block, obstruct, snarl, and tangle up anything …”
You forgot “cry like a little girl”. Don’t forget that the bronze dandyboy Boehner is one of the main obstructors.
December 30th, 2008 at 12:22 pmRepublicans hate America. Republicans are anti-American. Since they hate this country so much, why don’t they go start their JesusLand somewhere else?
December 30th, 2008 at 12:25 pm“Krugman: GOP has ‘no coherent theory’ behind obstructing economic stimulus package.”
We all understand that one, Dr. Krugman. Thanks.
December 30th, 2008 at 12:26 pm‘McConnell said any stimulus should meet a simple test: “Will the yet-unwritten, reportedly trillion-dollar spending bill really create jobs and grow the economy — or will it simply create more government spending, more bureaucrats and deeper deficits?”’
You mean like the ‘War On Terror’ did/does?
I wonder if the repugs are peeved that Biden said that the plan will not include any earmarks and “that no pet projects of lawmakers would be accepted.”
Repugs always scream about pork, but:
December 30th, 2008 at 12:28 pmEven Robert Novak Admits: GOP Still Loves Pork
Maybe it’s because the GOP has no coherent theory…period.
¶ AIO
A Patriot Acting Says:
December 30th, 2008 at 12:28 pm….”bronze dandyboy Boehner”…. LOL
Of course they don’t have a coherent theory. They don’t actually stand for anything. They are defined by what they are against. And they’re always against the Democrats.
It’s time for the Senate to use the so-called Nuclear option and prevent the GOP from dragging the country down with their filibusters.
December 30th, 2008 at 12:30 pmElBruce,
After the 2004 election a Canadian aunt of mine emailed me this:
Jesusland
December 30th, 2008 at 12:30 pm<3 Krugman
December 30th, 2008 at 12:32 pmA Patriot Acting Says:
Don’t forget that the bronze dandyboy Boehner is one of the main obstructors.
________________
Y’all keep pronouncing his name wrong.
It’s bOOOOOOOOOner, w/ a long OOOOO.
John bOOOOOOOOOOOOOner.
December 30th, 2008 at 12:33 pmFrom the Novak link above (which is from 1-24-08):
‘Republicans are staring into a 2008 election abyss, having lost credibility as upholders of lean government by sponsoring profligate pork-barrel spending during 12 years in the congressional majority.’
December 30th, 2008 at 12:43 pmIs Novak being right about something a sign of the apocalypse, or is it more a broken-watch-is-right-twice-a-day situation?
December 30th, 2008 at 12:49 pmdeebaser, yes, I was surprised to find that he was right about something!
December 30th, 2008 at 12:53 pmAre these guys still playing the same game… a game where they obstruct congress so they can continue to say the dems get nothing done? Or are they worried all the work, for decades, put into shrinking the middle class will quickly go down in flames?
I am going to guess the goppers are counting on the fact the public does not understand filibuster… we have 23 months to educate and then really clean house.
December 30th, 2008 at 12:56 pmWhile Boehner and McConnell are blatent obstructionists, pressure also need to be put on the so called Blue Dog Democrats, who can be just as obstructive. Once a month I get a summary of the voting record of my Senators and Representative. I have used it to hole them accountable. We all need to do that.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:00 pmI’m in this weird position in re the Republicans:
December 30th, 2008 at 1:00 pmwhen I am through with the satisfying bashing of Republican idiocy and mean spirited obstruction, listen to what Krugman is saying, and I just get scared.
What are we going to have to go through before this nation gets back on its feet?
Just how bad is it going to get?
And suddenly it’s not all that much fun any more.
The thought of giving tax breaks to the middle class while at the same time raising taxes for the rich freaks them out. The hard working middle class is hanging on a thread hoping things will soon turn around.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:02 pmTracy__5 Says:
Amazing to think that this whole financial meltdown started after November 200[0].
There, I fixed it for you.
R_B
December 30th, 2008 at 1:03 pmTracy 5,
Does that mean you don’t think it was Bill Clinton’s fault??
December 30th, 2008 at 1:03 pmIt’s a large machine t5. It took a while for the tax cuts for the wealthy and the deregulation to start affecting our economy…….of course any idiot knows this.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:06 pmOur trolls are going to defend Bush and the GOP to the last. It is what they do. They are so heavily invested in their allegiance to the ‘Boy King’ and his failed philosophy that they cannot peel themselves away from the adoration. They have defended every incompetent and illegal action by Bushco and they are not giving up because of something so small as an election.
Any thinking American should know the truth behind Bush and the GOP by now: They hate everybody, except themselves. Southern GOP’rs are making sure the auto workers get no money, so their own FOREIGN companies can take advantage. Think about this: American Senators and Congresspeople are trying to limit the income of other Americans to the benefit of FOREIGN auto makers. If you are an American, that is all you should need to know about these traitors.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:09 pmTracy__5 Says:
Amazing to think that this whole financial meltdown started after November 2006.
What is amazing is how well the goppers kept the holes in the dike so well plugged hoping the explosion would not happen until Bush was out therefore they could say this happened on the dems watch. And what a mess the explosion created because of all the deregs and lack of over sight by the gopper administration.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:12 pmJust curious… what do you think about this present congress.. the goppers being the most obstructive in history, around 80 filibusters, so they could accuse the dems for getting nothing done?
Tracy, I’d like to share a snippet from a good post from ‘leekinny’ at #47 in the thread about McConnell’s plans to block Obama’s economic stimulus package:
“When the Democrats threatened to block the votes on a couple of, too far, to the right Supreme Court picks, the ‘up or down vote’ Republicans threatened to enact the ‘Nuclear Option’.
They then proceeded to use the filibuster in a record breaking orgy of obstructionism in the last Congress.”
Even if it was possible to blame the current financial crisis on the Democrats I would think a case could be made that Repug obstructionism had something to do with it.
Thank you leekinny!
December 30th, 2008 at 1:12 pmThey gave themselves a raise. There’s a waste of money.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:12 pmTracy_5 may be on to the right date, but for the wrong reasons.
November 2006 is when the GOP started using a record number of filibusters to prevent Congress for acting on anything. And that’s when Bush discovered he had a veto pen, so any legislation that got past the filibusters could get vetoed.
Indeed, November 2006 is the date when the obstructionist- and ideologically-bent GOP prevented the Democrats from being able to take any steps to deal with this problem.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:14 pmAmerica is suffering right now – the entire country. It’s just not the left or right which is suffering. For the GOP to continue to obstruct – so they can ram through some failed ideology – is a terrible way to make a political comeback.
If you work, the GOP wants you to take a pay cut.
If you are in the armed forces, the GOP wants you to kill innocent people for the benefit of Halliburton.
If you are an American auto worker, the GOP wanst to ruin your union.
If you are a wealthy Wall Streeter, the GOP wants to reward your greed with MY MONEY.
If you have financial troubles because of the last eight years of chaos, the GOP calls you ‘whiners’.
The modern GOP is a criminal enterprise driven to prop up their evangelical base while destroying all that is American pride. Obstruction is all they got right now. Problems do not get solved that way.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:19 pmI don’t get this — Why is a hick from Kentucky, possibly the most regressive state in the nation, charting the direction of the rest of the country?
December 30th, 2008 at 1:22 pmThe current GOP leadership and even some Dems aren’t educated enough to understand or handle the problems of today. Most of the senior Law Makers learned on the job for their corrupt elders. Most Law Makers don’t even know the US Constitution so this stuff is over their heads. Look at Hank Paulson who only had a title of CEO and US Treasury Secretary and blow 700 billion dollars of taxpayers money and has now hired an adviser to tell him what to do as he goes back to Congress for more money. It’s always the case as the workers make the boss look good and smart. Bush is another example of a true idiot. Mr. Krugman told the White House years ago the direction we were going would bring a Stock Market Crash but the idiots were clueless. The funny part was when O’Reilly told Krugman he didn’t know what he was talking about and O’Reilly said he was smarter then Krugman. Well in a few months Mr. Krugman was present with the Nobal Peace Prize and O’Reilly got sh*t in his face. Each received what they deserved in the end. The good news is Mr. Krugman is working with the Obama/Biden team.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:23 pmTracy__5 Says:
Amazing to think that this whole financial meltdown started after November 2006.
December 30th, 2008 at 12:56 pm
__________
So?
Provide evidence of a causal link, please. Correlation doesn’t mean shit.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:26 pmDoesn’t matter. The GOP can push around the weak impotent Dem leadership in Congress and will do so for political gain. You can book it.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:29 pmTracy__5 Says:
“Does that mean you don’t think it was Bill Clinton’s fault??”
Not this time.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
__________
Wrong again. Clinton does deserve a bit of the blame for signing into law the repeal of Glass-Steagall. But a huge chunk of the blame goes to the Bush policies of deregulation and tax cuts that followed.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:31 pmI’ll take that book…..the gop lost big….not just lost. They lost credibility too. The blogosphere is alive and well……witness the election 08.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:32 pmI find it very, very laughable that all of the sudden the republikkkans are concerned about pork and spending. Aren’t they the party who spent money like drunken sailors when they held the majority in the congress.
We never heard them complain about the wasteful, unaccounted money being spent and lost in Iraq. We never heard them complain when they along with the Bush administration gave this country debt.
Now with the democrats in charge they have suddenly become ‘conservative’ again!?! Sorry republikkkans America knows you are the obstructionist party and you don’t give a damn about we the people, you only care about your self interests and are beholden to the corporations, not the country or the American worker.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:34 pmIs it a must to constantly indulge in willful delusion to be a repug?
‘A delusion is commonly defined as a fixed false belief and is used in everyday language to describe a belief that is either false, fanciful or derived from deception.’
December 30th, 2008 at 1:34 pmthat should have been ‘record debt’
December 30th, 2008 at 1:35 pmt5 lives in wrongville. and likes it
December 30th, 2008 at 1:35 pmmk3872 Says:
Doesn’t matter. The GOP can push around the weak impotent Dem leadership in Congress and will do so for political gain. You can book it.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:29 pm
_________
If they stay unified. All the Democrats have to do is convince two or three GOP senators to vote yes on cloture – which may be a wise move for Repub senators from suffering states who are up for reelection in 2010 and don’t want to be painted as obstructionists taking away jobs and infrastructure projects from their home state.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:35 pmTracy__5 Says:
#23
“It took a while for the tax cuts for the wealthy and the deregulation to start affecting our economy”
As if tax increases and more regulation has ever helped our economy?
Clinton raised taxes on the rich. I blame him for all that prosperity during the 90’s. BWAHAHAHAHAH!
Earth to Tracy: Get over your delusions: You and your ilk have never been part of the solution.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:36 pmso, back up what you say. How has tax cuts and deregulation made our economy stronger?
December 30th, 2008 at 1:37 pmThe Republican response is more compassionate conservatism. Said another way, PR to those in the soup line that they feel your pain before they go back to their black SUV and get driven away. The Republicans need to stop digging but I don’t expect that to happen.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:37 pmTracy__5 Says:
As if tax increases and more regulation has ever helped our economy?
December 30th, 2008 at 1:33 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal
December 30th, 2008 at 1:39 pmIt’s unAmerican to use forign companies to lower the standard of living for American workers……I know, you don’t get that.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:39 pmMary, I have republikkkans in my family and I can honestly say that they are truly delusional, lack compassion, misinformed, say one thing and when proven wrong deny they ever made such a comment. One of my republikkkan sisters even uses the Delphi technique when discussing politics and if she is starting to lose the argument then she gets personal. I love my sister but she, simply put is an idiot.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:40 pmYes, Twacy, because low taxes and deregulation works so well, such as in Kentucky, where Senator Twit McDungall hails — a state featuring zero job creation and a monumentally uneducated population.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:41 pmToday’s Republicans are anti-liberal bigots, period. I guess that’s coherence of a sort.
As previous commenters have noted, the Lunar Right don’t care a fig for America or anyone in it. Every Republican is on his knees every day, praying for another big terror attack, or another Great Depression. “Please, God. I don’t care how many people get killed–just so long as it hurts the Democrats.”
December 30th, 2008 at 1:42 pmThe strategy is clear: Prohibit, and if that’s not possible, diminish as much as possible, the beneficial impact of any initiative emanating from, and which might redound to the benefit or approval of Obama and the Dims.
Jesus fuuking CHRIST!
DUH!!!
You expected, what, statesmanship?
From the Pukes?
RIGHT!!!!
December 30th, 2008 at 1:42 pmAs if tax increases and more regulation has ever helped our economy?
As I recall, Pres. Clinton’s tax increases on the wealthy helped to balance the budget…despite Republican predicitions of Disaster. Peace and Prosperity followed.
As for regulations…even Wall Street is fed up with the “Wild West” business climate, which has just about wiped them all out….and is yearning for Common Sense Regulation.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:42 pmTheir approval rating was very low…..since 2000. We just had a big election that reflects what Americans thought was wrong with congress….remember.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:43 pmOh, and Tracy, Texas may have received an oil boom at the expense the rest of America’s pocket books, but say buh bye now that big oil’s tactics have backfired. Texas will return to being an economically sucky state as long as its doomed to GOP leadership. (God, you right-wingers don’t know shit about running an economy.)
December 30th, 2008 at 1:44 pmTracy__5 Says:
It’s very much possible to blame EVERYONE in Congress for the current financial crisis especially that a-hole Barney Frank who STILL thinks that he had nothing to do with the financial mess which STARTED with Freddie and Fannie.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:43 pm
_____________
Bullshit. The financial mess didn’t start with Freddie and Fannie – they were latecomers to the predatory lending game.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:44 pmTracy, yes the approval rating of congress is low but lets see what happens once President Barack Obama is in the White House.
The republikkkans can keep bringing up the low approval rating all they want BUT what did they do for the American people when they held the majority for 6+ years. What has the Bush administration done for the American people in the past 8 years?
December 30th, 2008 at 1:46 pmGOP ? economic expertise
December 30th, 2008 at 1:47 pmTracy__5 Says:
same old debunked lies from the past…
god t5, you got anything that’s not from rush’s old playbook?
December 30th, 2008 at 1:47 pmWhat matters now is that the Dims own the crisis.
Actually, the DIMS OWN ALL the crises.
And the Pukes aren’t gonna let ‘em fix any, even if they wanted to–which is in itself an amorphous proposition…
Because the Pukes plan to take over again. On the bones of the American people, if necessary. But certainly by wrenching out the heart of the Dims, by handing them problems they won’t participate in solving. They won’t scruple at that, because they scruple at nothing…
December 30th, 2008 at 1:48 pm#19 pbg says:
I’m in this weird position in re the Republicans:
when I am through with the satisfying bashing of Republican idiocy and mean spirited obstruction, listen to what Krugman is saying, and I just get scared.
What are we going to have to go through before this nation gets back on its feet?
Just how bad is it going to get?
And suddenly it’s not all that much fun any more.
I’m worried about the same thing. The way things look at this point I have yet to see light at the end of any tunnel.
Spending some time at change.gov which I see is the best lifeline I have to be heard. I was an interior designer that is until recently. Now I do anything. Walk dogs, clean houses, polish fancy boats, nanny….anything. Husbands chosen profession went the way of the dodo bird three years ago.
Financial Security? for whom? Bush and his cronies will walk away from this country with bigger fatter bank accounts and laughing all the way there. The rest? well, you know that answer.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:49 pmTracy is your typical, delusional republikkkan. Never do they hold their own party accountable for the countries ills. By the way Tracy the republikkkan policy of deregulation is the major reason why we are in the current financial crisis. It all started with Ronny Raygun in the 80’s and continued in the mid 90’s. Republican Phil Gramm was a big pusher for deregulation as were many other ‘conservatives’
December 30th, 2008 at 1:49 pmTracy__5 Says:
Amazing to think that this whole financial meltdown started after November 2006.
If it started after November, McCain would have won. His “fundamentals of the economy are strong” gaffe, coinciding with a massive crash of our financial institutions happened in September. As Obama had been pointing out, the basis of the market crash, in terms of the consumers’ situation, had been building for a couple of years.
So yes, it would be amazing to think that.
Tracy__5 Says:
As if tax increases and more regulation has ever helped our economy?
If there’s too little regulation then yes, more helps. America’s economy grew so much over the 20th century specifically because it was appropriately regulated. The either/or “more/less regulation” meme is profoundly retarded. It’s like saying that since you’re for liberty that means there should always be fewer laws, up to and including murder.
It’s a similar situation with tax increases. Ideally we could grow out of any problem, but sometimes they’re the necessary remedy. Again, it’s not an “always more” or “always less” situation, but a question of doing the right thing as needed, only when needed.
But “tax increases” is wingnut sleight-of-hand. The question is in any tax code change, are you shifting the burden of existing taxation more to the rich or to the middle class? In other words, are you committing class warfare or actually trying to affect the lives of more people?
The decision to increase taxes isn’t made when the tax code changes; it’s made when the government overspends when it can afford not to. Clinton didn’t do that. Obama can’t afford not to raise the deficit. Bush blew up the deficit when there was no economic necessity to do so, and that’s why we’re in the situation we’re in now. We’re now paying the bill for Bush’s party.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:50 pmt5, — you are good at asking questions (mostly based on a variety of logical fallacies), but you are short on answering questions from others. You are not holding a discourse, and are not supporting your arguments. In particualr you do not continue dicussions that others try to have with you — you simply avoid that and ask more ridiculous questions.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:53 pmTracy__5 Says:
The autoworkers for companies like Honda and Toyota are just as much American workers than the UAW workers in Michigan.
You certainly are no economist, are you? Tell me: do you read very much? I don’t mean the daily fish wrap, I mean real informational news. It appears you have very short answers to very complicated issues – all of which are based on your leaders failed ideology of letting the market run amok. The GOP is a bigoted, racist, and uninformed group of people. Are you sure you want to be associated with them? Really?
December 30th, 2008 at 1:54 pmHi Tracy_5:
December 30th, 2008 at 1:54 pmMight you explain why you never support any sort of demand side trickle up economic policies.
Tracy__5
Let me ask you the following questions and IF you reply please respond directly to the numbers with your answer!
1) Do you enjoy 40 hour work weeks, which the Unions brought to you?
2) Do you like employer provided health care, which the Unions brought to you?
3) Do you like having sick/vacation days, which the Unions brought to you?
There are more, but this should be enough to explode your head for now. I’ll await your reply.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:56 pmWith the financial crisis we as a nation are in, there should be a law that our elected officials who proceeded over this mess should take big pay cuts until our country is back on the right path.
We should also end all foreign aid to countries like Israel, Egypt, Pakistan, etc, who only seem to spend the money given to them on their military and not their own citizens.
Oh yeah and if our elected officials truly wanted to stimulate the economy and help we the people at the same time, they would have cut us all a check for at least $20,000.00 each.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:56 pmtokin librul Says: @ 63
I fear your prediction will be true.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:57 pmt5, if the great conservatism that you support against all comers is so perfect then please explain why it is only conservatives who have deathbed converstions to renounce their lifes work……..
Death bed conversions are for people like Lee Atwater
It is funny to note that you never hear of a deathbed conversion or renouncement of life activities from progressives. It only comes from the right who know they are doing wrong and do it anyway. See George Wallace also.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:59 pmStratRat Says: Tracy_5 It appears you have very short answers to very complicated issues – all of which are based on your leaders failed ideology of letting the market run amok.The GOP is a bigoted, racist, and uninformed group of people.
““““““““““““““““““““““““““
I couldn’t have said it any better!
The pathetic republican members of my family were telling racial jokes on Christmas Eve after all of the festivities were done. I couldn’t phucking believe it.
December 30th, 2008 at 2:02 pm“Tracy__5 Says:
——————————————————————————–
Tell us specifically how those tax increases helped stimulate the economy. The tax increases did nothing but pay down the debt so the government could INCREASE spending, but not have to raise the debt ceiling.”
Clinton created 20 MILLION jobs during his time in office!!!
Bush did not even due half of that!!!!! That is with the “tax” cuts that he put in place…….
I would say that Clinton’s method was more fruitful for the country!!!!
You, of course, will say that Bush was but the numbers speak for themselves.
December 30th, 2008 at 2:10 pmIn all honesty BOTH parties have sold us out and it didn’t just happen over night. Most of them are beholden to the banksters, the crooksters on Wall Street, the corporations. They are blinded by power and greed.
Sadly all we do is play right into their hands by attacking one another and further dividing this country with the democrat/republican, liberal/conservative, left/right labels. This is what they want, this is how they continue to screw us over and over again.
We have a one party political system that serves the same master. The only difference is that the left wing of this political system throw we the people a few bones.
December 30th, 2008 at 2:11 pmTracy__5 Says:
Tell us specifically how those tax increases helped stimulate the economy. The tax increases did nothing but pay down the debt so the government could INCREASE spending, but not have to raise the debt ceiling.
““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““`
Wow you are a moron! How about telling us how the Bush tax cuts for the rich helped stimulate the current economy? Hmmm now what would stimulate the economy more, giving tax cuts to 10% of the population or giving tax cuts to 90% of the population?
Taxing the rich will work but they also must cut the military and NASA’s budget among other things.
December 30th, 2008 at 2:15 pmTracie is the mascot for the 23%’ers, their cheerleader if you will. Her support for all things Bush and her blind allegiance to the Repug Party transcends facts and reality. Like Bush, these simpletons can ever admit failure. Even with the economy in the tank these dickweeds continue to spout slogans and cheers. T-A-X-C-U-T!! Tax cut, tax cut, Yessireee!! YAYYYYYYY
December 30th, 2008 at 2:21 pmTracy,
Over five years the tax cuts have had a direct cost to the Treasury of 860 Billion dollars-with interest, 929 Billion
If the past four years of tax cuts had worked as promised, the economy should have done better than in cycles when taxes were not cut or cut less.
Did you know that thirty years ago less than five percent of home sales were for second or third homes (or 4th, 5th or 6th)??owned concurrently by one person. Now that number is over 30%!!!!!
First time house buyers became rare as home sales soared to the investor class who rent to those who would have purchsed if they could’ve.
Then when the govt pushed to allow more first time home buyers into the market lenders took full advantage and constructed the elaborate ponzi scheme of derivatives so as to cover their tracks. Fannie and Freddie were NOT in the primary lending market. Those loans had already been reviewed and passed off as secured debt by the originating lenders. The primary lenders knew exactly what they were doing (reference WaMu’s yes man policies)
For you to try to cover for the unregulated market that resulted from the blur of commercial banking and assumption of the investment houses who had no other reason for assuming mortgage loans other than to increase the profits of their fund managers is quite disingenuous and actually makes you look quite foolish.
December 30th, 2008 at 2:24 pmOK, tracy, you convinced me. Our economic system should be totally free, without any regulations. Bring on the 60 hour work week, 10 year old children working in sweatshops, uninspected meat, factories with no safety requirements. I just love freedom from government interference.
While we’re at it, let’s make sure people are totally free as well, without any laws against theft, rape, murder. Did I say I just love freedom from government interference?
/snark off
December 30th, 2008 at 2:29 pmTracy__5 Says:
Yeah right!….and what percentage of mortages WERE and still are held by these to partly governement controlled entities and who in Congress pushed for letting people get loans who couldn’t afford them?
I believe it’s been estimated to be approximately 1.5%, but that information wasn’t tracked, because Credit Default Swaps weren’t regulated.
Also, the definition of a “subprime mortgage” is one that doesn’t meet Fannie/Freddie underwriting requirements.
Anybody else remember all of those reality TV shows they had over the last couple years about people making money by flipping houses and basically spec investing in real estate? I think it’s pretty obvious that the bulk of the cash amounts involved weren’t from first-time homeowners, but rather from people who were buying $750K houses when they could only normally afford $300K houses. Or people buying a second or third house by leveraging their first. All of this was done on the assumption that the increase in housing prices would inflate their equity so they could recoup their investment and get out.
After all, a first-time homeowner might buy a $200K house, but a flipper will go for a $1M house, hoping to sell out at $1.5M within the year. Which one was a riskier investment, and which one impacted the mortgage industry more when the bottom fell out? (hint: try math)
December 30th, 2008 at 2:29 pmThey let 4 more years of tax cuts for the rich and this country will start to look like a third world republic, with the select utra-rich detached from the rest. The middle or lower class will look like a bunch ants fighting over a crumb of bread while the select few splurge in lavish extravagance.
December 30th, 2008 at 2:29 pmI can hear the echoes of the idiot saying : “Now that’s uniquely american isn’t it?”
Tracy,
Who should be reforming their business practices?
Goldman Sachs has been scheduled to receive an estimated $10 billion in bailout money from the government. This firm responded by anointing 92 new members into its exalted status of partnership, and announcing bonuses of $210,000 per employee for 2008 — a total bonus pool in excess of $6.8 billion.
Similarly at Morgan Stanley, another giant bailout recipient, bonuses of $138,700 per employee were announced, with a total bonus pool in excess of $6.4 billion. Goldman and Morgan are prime offenders, but these firms were not alone– this grotesque story repeats itself all across the Wall Street community.
Our Treasury and Federal Reserve are loading debt on future generations and transferring the debt money to Wall Street criminals and commercial bankers—the very people who massively breached their fiduciary duties by creating this catastrophe in the first place. Bailout indeed.
December 30th, 2008 at 2:31 pmTracist__5 is a silly little fellow, ain’t he?
December 30th, 2008 at 2:31 pmTracist__5 can’t admit he’s racist when he says one of his friends is black
Tracist__5 can’t admit he hates women when he constantly attacks a frequent poster here who happens to be a single mother, for going back to college.
Tracist__5 sure as hell won’t admit that it was his votes, his politicians that fcked up this country.
Tracist__5 lives in a fantasy world where he can do no wrong.
Tracist__5 should be diagnosed as having delusions of grandeur.
Tracist__5 should be heavily medicated.
Nettles says:
Your words would have a smidge more credibility were you to remove yourself from your High Horse and acknowledge that those Do-Gooder dems you revere so unquestionably played a major part in loosening the loan restrictions that protected the average punctual paying debtor from the delinquent debtors, who have put us in the mess we are in today.
I spent the last 28 years as a banker in So. California. I did mortgages (consumer and commercial) everyday – day in and day out. You would do well to imagine that some of the commenters here at TP have had much more experience than you. It would also serve you to imagne that you do not have a firm grasp of the facts and the subsequent collapse of the financial markets.
Not once in my career did any borrower come to my office and ask for a loan they could not afford – not once. On the other hand, we were constantly under pressure to loan as much as possible – within the parameters of community based lending – by our local political leaders.
There is no ‘High Horse’ that you refer to. Only a failed ideology which depended upon the ever higher values of homes and homeownership. Please do research – away from Fox and Friends. You’ll be glad you did.
December 30th, 2008 at 2:31 pmssshhh, don’t tell tracy that foreign countries subsidize their auto manufacturers so they can out-compete U.S. auto manufacturers. We don’t want tracy to try to assimilate that information into a closed mind.
December 30th, 2008 at 2:32 pmTracy__5 Says:
…tax increases generally speaking do not stimulate the private sector…
An interesting point buried in here, I wanted to respond to it.
I’d say more that government-spending stimulation is short-term; that is, it only lasts as long as the government keeps spending levels high. But that’s no exit strategy; ideally, it should set things up so that the economy remains stimulated in the long term without the necessity to keep the gov spending level up there.
I’d like to see us move into an era where the first question someone asks isn’t is it more or less government spending, but is it smart government spending? A great example is the interstate highway system. Once built, private industry was able to use that to foster vast economic growth throughout the midwest as well as to create the transportation industry as we know it today – as well as all of the industry that relies on distributed transportation. So yeah, that government spending did stimulate the private sector, in that it created an infrastructural basis that the private sector was able to leverage into new business models.
We have a greate opportunity today to use government spending to create the underlying technology and infrastructure for energy independence through a wide variety of alternatives. Once that industry is up and running, the government need not be directly involved. Obama gets this, and that’s great.
There are probably many other opportunities as well, but none that show nearly so much promise, or that dovetail so neatly into our other national priorities.
P.S: Unlike many here, I appreciate your questions and comments, Tracy__5. Thanks, and please do keep challenging us.
December 30th, 2008 at 2:36 pmPatrioticLiberalChristian Says:
ssshhh, don’t tell tracy that foreign countries subsidize their auto manufacturers so they can out-compete U.S. auto manufacturers. We don’t want tracy to try to assimilate that information into a closed mind.
Exactly!!! And also, don’t tell the T5’s of the world that to entice the foreign auto makers to build in their states, the companies were given huge taxes breaks and other inducements for choosing one site versus another. Americans were throwing our tax money at foreign car makers so BMW, Toyota, Nissan, etc.. would choose Tennessee over Alabama or Georgia over Florida. Also, based on our tax code, many foreign car makers paid NO INCOME TAX either. The profits get sent home.
As long as foreign auto makers can fleece the public, they will continue to do so – at our expense.
December 30th, 2008 at 2:38 pmTracist: Works well here in Texas…so well that the current financial crisis that much of the country is experiencing is not being felt here near as bad…especially in the DFW area.
Maybe you didn’t read my previous post:
McWars Says:
December 30th, 2008 at 2:49 pmOh, and Tracy, Texas may have received an oil boom at the expense the rest of America’s pocket books, but say buh bye now that big oil’s tactics have backfired. Texas will return to being an economically sucky state as long as its doomed to GOP leadership. (God, you right-wingers don’t know shit about running an economy.)
Tracy could have relevance but for the fact that he always, repeat always, supports all things Bush. Like a non-falsifiable theory, if there is nothing Bush-like that Tracy won’t support,there is no credence in the things he does support.
If just once Tracy (or any of the rest of the trolls) would stop defending the Repug positions, it would show that he comes to his positions by reasoning not parroting. Keltoi’s responses are not automated repitition of Rush’s talking points and he has earned respect.
Alas, it ain’t gonna happen. The economy, torture, Iraq, rendition, Executive Privilege, phone taps, Abu Gharab, Guantanamo…. name an issue and Tracy will parrot Rush.
December 30th, 2008 at 2:53 pmTracy__5 Says:
Of course paying down the government debt is going to help the private sector perform, but creating jobs is NOT what the government does
December 30th, 2008 at 2:49 pm
________
What part of “promote the general welfare” aren’t you clear on, sport?
December 30th, 2008 at 2:54 pmSorry ElBruce, but Tracist__5 gets no pass from me, ever since he claimed that single mothers perform no benefit to society when they attend college.
December 30th, 2008 at 2:57 pmThen he stalks a certain poster here, continuously mocking her.
So no matter what comes out of his mouth, it’s pure $hit, in my most humble opinion.
PatrioticLiberalChristian Says:
ssshhh, don’t tell tracy that foreign countries subsidize their auto manufacturers so they can out-compete U.S. auto manufacturers. We don’t want tracy to try to assimilate that information into a closed mind.
December 30th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
__________
Also, don’t forget to mention that they often have government-run health care systems which also relieve auto manufacturers of the need to pay health benefits to their employees and retirees, a savings they can pass on to the consumer.
Shhhhh!
December 30th, 2008 at 2:57 pmMan, we’re doing a lot of shushing here.
December 30th, 2008 at 2:59 pmBut, me thinks, no matter how loud we type (heh!) facts, Tracist_5 ain’t listening.
T5, are you even going to TRY to address my post #70?
December 30th, 2008 at 3:00 pmTracy__5 Says:
Works well here in Texas…so well that the current financial crisis that much of the country is experiencing is not being felt here near as bad…especially in the DFW area.
Naturally, the greatest pains of the current economic downturn are felt more in some areas than others. I can imagine no mechanism that would causally link the political opinions of the people of a given area to their economic situation. In fact, quite the reverse. If things were tougher in Texas, maybe Texans wouldn’t be such dicks all the time. The trick is to look at the situation objectively instead of from a position of “I got mine, too bad for you.”
Tracy__5 Says:
…creating jobs is NOT what the government does…
Unfortunately, the private sector isn’t doing it right now, and it needs to be done. The government is thus the employer of last resort. If you have a credible alternative, I’d love to hear it.
Tracy__5 Says:
…if the national debt is kept in check as it was with the Republicans in 1994 creating and pushing for a balanced budget…
As I recall at the time, deficit reduction was pushed for by a bipartisan group consisting of a minority of both parties. And the economy was different then than it was now. We should balance the budget and shrink the deficit when times are good – when economic growth allows us to afford to do it. But times aren’t good now, in case you hadn’t noticed. They were considerably better during Bush’s midterm, but that wasn’t done then.
Tracy__5 Says:
Yes, I remember 2006 and how Congress’s approval ratings are now lower then Bush’s.
The main problem with Congressional approval ratings is that they haven’t been able to accomplish anything. Whether you blame pushover Dems or obstructionist Republicans for that, the solution is the same: fewer Republicans in Congress will fix any problems with Congress.
DRxJ Says:
Sorry ElBruce, but Tracist__5 gets no pass from me
It would be harder to make coherent points in response around here if there was nothing to respond to. As far as I’m concerned, he’s tossing us softballs. Hey, somebody’s gotta do it.
December 30th, 2008 at 3:12 pmHow do you figure?…considering the oil boom was over 20 years ago, to bottom fell out, but today Texas is in far better financial shape than most of the other states.
Cheap low wage border labor?
December 30th, 2008 at 3:22 pmNettles Says:
If you’re going to throw out childish, outrageous, blanket accusations, you should at least have the stones to stand by them. It all circles back to your lack of accountability.
And with no due respect, I am standing by all my words. The fact that the words I used did not convince you is your problem, not mine. The fact that ‘accountability’ is an overused word which does nothing to bolster your own arguement. Accountability for what?: profits? performance bonuses? tax breaks? sales goals? no regulation? inflated home prices? lax underwriting? political interferance? turn and burn tactics? What accountability do you refer to?
December 30th, 2008 at 3:36 pmTracy__5 Says:
#68
“The GOP is a bigoted, racist, and uninformed group of people.”
And you tell me I don’t read? Not only do YOU not read you don’t seem to know anything about anyone. Your name fits you well…rat boy.
Yes, I did say that you need to read – more material, more often. Reviewing your posts only serves to underscore that point. No matter, though. I can imagine it must be tough looking at the pile of dung the right side has left – and apparently proud of that large pile. I guess if you cannot let go of your heroes, it is best to defend them to the very end. Sucks to be you. Reading comprehension: look into it.
December 30th, 2008 at 4:13 pmTracy__5 Says:
What is ther current approval rating? BTW if the Dems had all of their soldiers in line with the BS agenda the GOP couldn’t have filibustered so many times.
That is a lie and you know it. Even IF the Dems had their soldiers in line, they would have had only 50 or 51, depending on the vote…You think nine Republicans would have crossed over? I doubt it…
December 30th, 2008 at 4:19 pmOh yeah, forgot to respond to this…
Uncle Fester Lurks Says:
With the financial crisis we as a nation are in, there should be a law that our elected officials who proceeded over this mess should take big pay cuts until our country is back on the right path.
That would be as much pointless showmanship as making the auto CEO’s drive a hybrid to Washington. Doesn’t help in any measurable way. I’d prefer we actually address the problem with comprehensive solutions, rather than waste time with symbols.
Uncle Fester Lurks Says:
We should also end all foreign aid to countries like Israel, Egypt, Pakistan, etc, who only seem to spend the money given to them on their military and not their own citizens.
Foreign aid is a relatively small line-item by itself, and is largely a separate issue. Some foreign aid is more than worth the cost – other foreign aid packages might not be. But the merits of each are more appropriate for a foreign policy discussion rather than an economic discussion. Simply, the solution to the economic crisis won’t be found there either.
Uncle Fester Lurks Says:
Oh yeah and if our elected officials truly wanted to stimulate the economy and help we the people at the same time, they would have cut us all a check for at least $20,000.00 each.
That would probably cost more than the trillion dollars that’s being discussed, and once we blew the money we’d be right back in the same boat we’re in now. While I do believe that any stimulus program should be more distributed (no “trickle down” crap), it should also constitute an investment rather than a handout.
I’ve noticed over the past year that the stock market took a hit every time one of those “stimulus check” plans came out. That’s because international investors recognized that the U.S. was responding to the crisis with short-term stupidity, and the smart money got out.
All of your suggestions pretty much amount to political grandstanding. Unfortunately, we can’t afford to spend our time and money doing stuff like that. We need to actually repair the economy, not just hit it with a hammer and swear at it.
December 30th, 2008 at 4:20 pmNettles says:
I relize now that I am dealing with a tool who, judging by the name and the posts, gives guitar lessons out of his parent’s basement and sells phony mortgages to unassuming SoCal immigrants. Sad stuff indeed.
Actually, I have basements of my own – three of them. Some of us did well during the runup to our now collapsed markets – playing by the rules too, by the way. No need to drag my dear parents into this, right? My dear mom is not discussing this issue with you, I am.
You have your opinions, I have mine. Those opinions may meet, or they may not. I don’t care either way. It would be wrong to attribute the massive collapse of our financial markets on just one universe of people. All have their hands dirty on this one – right, left, whatever. Strange though that the market DID collapse on Bush’s watch. Coincidence? You tell me.
BTW, if you want to improve your guitar playing, my going rate is $60.00 an hour. Lessons at my studio in San Diego.
December 30th, 2008 at 4:23 pmTracy__5 Says:
You actually think that the big government types in Washington who want nothing more than to have more control over the masses would actually do anything but demand you pay more in taxes?
Tracy hates “big government” because he wants societal decisions placed in the hands of a few private overlords. He doesn’t need no stinkin’ elections. The lemming is hungry for his orders, but since Georgie is on vacation, he’s taking out his aggressions here.
December 30th, 2008 at 4:28 pmI am just asking them to reform and adapt so their companies don’t go under and make American workers in general look like baffoons.
Uh, you’re doing a good job of that all by yourself.
It’s spelled “buffoons”
December 30th, 2008 at 4:40 pmTracy__5 Says:
——————————————————————————–
#70
All yes. Why do you think that I don’t like what unions have done to improve working conditions. I am just asking them to reform and adapt so their companies don’t go under and make American workers in general look like baffoons.
So it’s OK for the Execs to rake in HUGE amounts of money for a failing company, but it’s the workers who you want to take a cut????
They have already taken cuts and tried to work with the Auto makers, but the management is giving large buckets of money to management. Why should they give up any more, if the big wigs are not going to take a hit for the team?
By the way…… That would be called “lead by example”, in case you did not know!
December 30th, 2008 at 4:46 pmThe Greedy Old Perverts have only one theory — to obstruct, stymie, and create roadblocks.
December 30th, 2008 at 4:56 pmTracy__5 Says:
All yes. Why do you think that I don’t like what unions have done to improve working conditions. I am just asking them to reform and adapt so their companies don’t go under and make American workers in general look like baffoons.
As funkmonkey points out, the comparison to the Wall Street bailout is just egregious – over 20x the money involved, and nothing given up whatsoever. However, unless you were for the one and against the other, it’s an unfair comparison.
The thing the MSM isn’t mentioning is that the unions already have gone through multiple rounds of cuts already over the past ten years. Each time that management came to them hat in hand, they have compromised in good faith, and they’ve given up a lot already. Now they’re being told by Congress that they have to take another cut to finance the mismanagement of those companies? It’s as good a time as any to say “enough.”
December 30th, 2008 at 4:58 pmTracy__5 Says:
Yeah is sure is, because many of them are too much of a self-rightous pompous ass to admit or realize that their life’s so-called “public service” has done more harm to the American people than good!
T5, it is a FACT that when a Dem is in the WH and the Dems Control Congress that the US does financially better.
I would show you statistics, but that would be pointless since you would still argue about the numbers.
December 30th, 2008 at 5:06 pmT5, here is some evidence…….
I’ll find more!
http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/article/106273/Election-Rally:-History-Suggests-Democrats-Better-for-Stocks
history shows the stock market fares better under Democratic Presidents vs. their Republican counterparts.
-Since 1901, the S&P rose an average 7.2% under Democratic presidents vs. 3.2% under Republicans, according to Ned Davis Research.
December 30th, 2008 at 5:13 pm-Out of the 10 years of negative stocks performance since 1970, 7 occurred during a Republican-controlled White House versus three under Democrat control, according to Ashraf Laidi of CMC Markets U.S.
-In the last seven periods when Democrats had complete control of U.S. political power, the S&P 500 rose 14.7% percent on average, according to Bespoke Investment Group.
In the eight times a Republican was president and Democrats controlled Congress, the benchmark index rose 7.4%.
-Still, the notion that “gridlock is good” is also borne out, at least in relatively recent history. Of the 28 years of positive stock performance since 1970, 19 occurred during partisan control between the White House and Congress, according to Laidi.
Tracy_5
History shows that the people do better under Democratic leadership.
The financial crisis did not start in November 2006. Events of this magnitude need much more time to develop. (Deregulation over years, trillions lost in Iraq, tax cuts for the wealthy that never trickle down to the middle class, which is the pillar of our economy.)
This is what happens when you watch Faux News and swallow the Repugnican propaganda. Greedy bastards, all. Why do you even come here? You don’t offer anything except stupid remarks, which annoy us, but more importantly, they demonstrate your ignorance. Perhaps in your anonymity, you believe that our annoyance is worth reducing yourself in such manner – is that repugnican rationale?
December 30th, 2008 at 5:16 pmT5, here is this too…..
http://currencythoughts.com/2008/08/19/how-the-us-economy-performed-under-democrat-and-republican-presidents/
With twenty years on each side and since some of the ups and downs of the U.S. business cycle lie beyond the direct control of policymakers, one would expect similar results in the two groups. Not so. Instead, one discovers below a significant advantage when a Democrat occupied the White House in each of the five categories.
% Per Annum Democrat Republican Bush43
December 30th, 2008 at 5:18 pmGDP Growth 4.1% 2.9% 2.2%
Employment 2.9% 1.7% 0.5%
CPI 4.0% 5.1% 3.0%
DJIA 8.1% 6.5% 0.9%
Dollar +0.8% -3.6% -5.9%
Tracy5 @76. so if the republicans did not agree with Glass-Steigel undoing by Clinton, they had 8 years to change that.
The Repuplican leadership has asked that the public hear about the package, review, etc. They can start now by coming up with a coherent theory for increasing demand in our economy. More tax cuts, trickle down economics, more of the same, ?? You do a lot of sharpshooting but I don’t hear a plan. Building is always much harder than tearing down. Try the hard part for a change….
December 30th, 2008 at 5:32 pmTracy__5 Says:
Yeah is sure is, because many of them are too much of a self-rightous pompous ass to admit or realize that their life’s so-called “public service” has done more harm to the American people than good!
It’s pretty clear now who’s been doing the harm. You know what, your theories about less regulation, lax regulation, and lower taxes on the rich have been tried. They have caused the greatest economic collapse since the Great Depression. You are therefore, wrong. You should thank us for having given your side the opportunity to use the U.S. and the world as a lab to test your political dogmas and then admit that the test results are negative.
Now we’re going to go fix the stuff y’all broke. Guess who’s theories we aren’t going to use to do that?
The simple approach – that people who actually try to perform the job of governance well can successfully govern – will be attempted. We’re also going to have to do some things that aren’t indicative of an ideal outcome, because this isn’t an ideal situation. That means shifting the tax burden somewhat more onto the rich than the middle class, and increasing government investment in America for a while. Contrary to what you may think about us, we don’t want to max out those things all the time. We aren’t actually Commies. However, it’s now become necessary for the foreseeable future. Your ilk and your dogma have made it so.
You know, if you hate government so much, why don’t you stop having Republicans run for office, and stop voting too? Why participate in a system for which you hold so little regard?
December 30th, 2008 at 5:46 pmThat’s the problem with you liberals….you think that the governement actually creates things…
That’s the problem with you cons… you think that roads, power plants and schools magically appear from nowhere.
The private sector can’t even manage to build a baseball stadium without the Governments help but they can name it after themselves… is there a Tracy5 Field in the works? Makes about as much sense as a Citi or Safeco Field…
December 30th, 2008 at 6:27 pmThe RepubliCons have one main motive, put more money in their pocket by hook or by crook; America be damned. It is time to start putting these liars and thieves in prison.
December 30th, 2008 at 6:42 pmTracy__5 Says:
Clinton created exactly ZERO private sector jobs.
Nope, that 20 million figure is private sector jobs. Linky, linky.
I’m cool ‘cuz I have Internets!
.
Tracy__5 Says:
No, the left wing of our political system makes sure to spread the misery equally.
Actually, we’re more interested in getting rid of the misery. You just make it unequal, and then call that good.
.
Tracy__5 Says:
No you are the bigoted, racist, and uninformed one who ignorantly says that the….
“The GOP is a bigoted, racist, and uninformed group of people.”
…no different than that POS RHF who posts here often.
Try getting out of you little enclave of companion bigots and learn something.
If pointing out bigotry is bigotry, does that make you a bigot for pointing out that others are bigots for pointing out bigotry? Crap, I just pointed out that you’re a bigot, so that makes me a bigot too! Onoes!
Seriously, that’s just plain stoopid. Conservatism is a lifestyle choice, and it’s curable. As it’s a chosen behavior, people aren’t bigoted for looking down on your kind.
December 30th, 2008 at 7:45 pm—–t5, — you are good at asking questions (mostly based on a variety of logical fallacies), but you are short on answering questions from others. You are not holding a discourse, and are not supporting your arguments. In particualr you do not continue dicussions that others try to have with you — you simply avoid that and ask more ridiculous questions.—–
December 30th, 2008 at 10:58 pmTracy__5 Says:
SPENDING was incresed far too much….that was the problem not the tax cuts thanks to Bush and Congress.
You don’t really see any relationship between the variables of revenue and spending? Really? Man, I’d hate to be your accountant. See, you typically want to make more money than you spend, and/or spend less money than you make. See, there are 2 variables, and they have a relationship. Not just one.
.
Fred Says:
—–t5, — you are good at asking questions (mostly based on a variety of logical fallacies), but you are short on answering questions from others…
If you want wingnuts to answer questions you pose to them, I recommend crossing enemy lines and taking it to their doorstep from time to time. You’ll be glad you did. I reccomend Ace, Freeperville, or LGF. Also, WDB or Pajamas (don’t ask).
Have fun storming the castle! (waves)
December 30th, 2008 at 11:24 pmKrugman: GOP has ‘no coherent theory’ behind obstructing economic stimulus package.
Krugman appears to make the mistake of thinking that republicans would be interested in solving the economic problems instead of just posturing for partisan gain. Silly Paul Krugman.
Everyone needs to realize that bush was spectacularly successful in every way in terms of achieving republican goals, with the absolute pinnacle of republican achievement being stealing $800 billion from taxpayers to line the pockets of their Wall Street chums, no questions asked. Continuing from the republican perspective we see, and will see republicans fighting tooth and nail to prevent government expenditure on projects that actually help average and lower income Americans, something republicans are sworn to prevent.
December 31st, 2008 at 12:03 amTracy__5 Says:
We will have to wait and see how far to the left he actually is.
I’m willing to agree with you there and settle on that.
.
Tracy__5 Says:
Where do you get the BS insinuation from? Ever looked in the
North Eastern U.S.?
Yep, good decent folk all who wouldn’t wish harm on anyone else, God bless ‘em.
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Tracy__5 Says:
No the trick is to see what economic policies have led to Texas being insulated from all of the other states that have economic problems. Those that have the worst problems are those who have the highest tax rates.
You’re working under the same Federal Government that everyone else is. Some states have different state tax schemes: some have income tax, some have sales tax, some have both, some have none. But from what I’ve seen, the national economic downturn isn’t related to those.
Unless you can claim that Texas is magically exempt from the situation that the U.S. as a whole is, then that point is completely moot. Did you guys secretly secede from the U.S.A. without the rest of us noticing? If so, good on ya’, that’s freaking awesome! But I doubt it.
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Tracy__5 Says:
There aren’t bread lines and soup kitchens yet.
This is why you and your kind are patethetic excuses for human beings. I would like to prevent massive starvation and death in the streets. You’d like to see it.
Tracy__5 Says:
No less spineless Republicans will fix the problem as well as less far left liberal Democrats.
Kucinich has Dragonball Z powers of which you can only dream. Don’t even try to step to his Lefty might.
December 31st, 2008 at 12:11 amTracy__5 Says:
Coupled with restrained government spending…no it has not, especially under the Bush administration.
Kinda was under Clinton… You know, Democratic Communism has never been tried, but you don’t see me demanding a chance to do that one.
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Tracy__5 Says:
The only reason this economy hasn’t collapsed is because conservatives have not allowed the far left liberals to take the ideas of the New Deal much beyond what was declared unconstitutional by the U.S. Supreme Court.
Citation please? That sounds a lot like crazy talk. I love crazy talk.
.
Tracy__5 Says:
When you actually see bread lines and soup kitchens for millions of unemployed Americans you let me know…
Sorry, I’d like to prevent starvation and mass death. I guess that’s where we differ.
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Tracy__5 Says:
If the government managed themselves HALF as good as a well private run U.S. company, and there are MILLIONS of them, we wouldn’t be in the current financial mess we are in. Don’t even beging to suggest that the federal government even begins to approach the efficiency of a most private U.S. companies.
I don’t know how to state this more clearly – you got everything you wanted. Private enterprise was given massive reductions in regulation and the top 1% of the economy was given massive tax breaks so they could show off how well they could stimulate the economy. It crashed. You failed. The people who were supposed to be running everything smoothly in the private sector were given total leeway, and they weren’t up to the task.
The reason that federal agencies don’t match the efficiency of private companies is an apples/oranges situation. They have different goals. Private companies run on pure profit. They therefore typically do a good job of generating profit. Public agencies (the Veteran’s Administration hospital system, for example) have goals of meeting service benchmarks. They do a pretty damn good job at those. But they don’t necessarily turn a profit doing so.
Does that make them less efficient? Hardly. Any efficiency gains achieved by privatization are subtracted when owners take their profits, so it tends to average out. But at least with government-provided services you know that nobody’s getting rich off of it.
I agree that the ideal is to have the free market provide as many services as possible. But when the free market doesn’t have an incentive to provide them, there’s no point in pretending that they will. And there are a number of instances (health care for example) where the free market is in fact disincentived to provide the necessary level of service.
I’m not saying you should go from an “X is always right” attitude to a “not-X is always right” one. Just that sometimes X is appropriate, and sometimes it’s not. I recognize that X is preferable in general, but that doesn’t mean it’s applicable in all cases.
December 31st, 2008 at 12:42 amLike ships passing in the night…
Tracy__5 Says:
Your link don’t give ANY evidence as to how Clinton actually created any jobs. Try again.
All the relevant links I found specified that Clinton’s 20M jobs figure was explicitly private sector jobs. You said that Clinton created 0 private sector jobs, with no citation. The ball is actually in your court.
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Tracy__5 Says:
No you are just content when those who have more are more equally miserable by taking from some and giving it to others.
Transfer payments don’t make sense. Jesus was for those, and they didn’t work then. I’m more interested in leveragable investment, paid for by an appropriately progressive tax structure.
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Tracy__5 Says:
Curable? What is wrong with not wanting others to take care of you?
That’s fine, except that if you were dying in the street, I’d have a moral obligation to do so anyways. No matter how much you protested, it would be incumbent on me to try to save your life. You don’t get to say that’s never going to happen, because you aren’t God.
What you really want is to never have to take care of anyone else. This is the definition of moral evil. Evil people are bad, and I oppose them vehemently on the Internets.
…
Tracy__5 Says:
You actually think that liberalism as a philosophy is the better route? Again you are OK with everyone being equally miserable? Move to Cuba if you want to see the fruits of far left liberalism.
How about we all work on reducing misery together? I’d say move to 1979 Chile if you want to see the results of unfettered conservatism (mass poverty, death squads, effective fascism) but I’m not arguing for an extreme far-either-direction view. I’m arguing for the appropriate point on the left/right scale to address the problems at hand.
You’re the extremist. I’m a moderate. Nyah.
December 31st, 2008 at 12:55 amTracy__5 Says:
If spending were to have been kept in line with incoming revenues the tax cuts would have been just fine.
I totally agree. Man, if it weren’t for that Iraq war, we’d be sitting so pretty right now.
Tracy__5 Says:
FYI there has NEVER been a following fiscal year from the previous where spending actually decreased, it’s just that the con artist politician slike to call a decrease in the rate of increase a spending cut.
I hate it when they do that too. Stop pretending we don’t know anything and give me the % of GDP, and the % change from last year’s. Let me crunch the numbers. They need to standardize which statistics they get to use.
Tracy__5 Says:
Yeah so truely cut spending, decrease tax rates, and if you actually have a surplus still return it to the people in the form of yet another check. You do realize the the government should NOT be running a surplus….don’t you? Or do you think the government can spend it better and more effectively than the individual tax payer?
So we should run a surplus but we shouldn’t run a surplus. How about we try to hit the correct number on the dot, and then correct any errors we made, minimizing them more each year? I would consider a surplus accidental waste. I would consider a shortfall accidental waste as well.
This sort of thing shouldn’t be a matter of politics, but rather a matter of nice, boring accounting.
December 31st, 2008 at 1:01 amTracy__5 Says:
From what you have seen, but here low tax rates is directly related to many local business not having to lay off workers to the extent the other high tax rates state have force their businesses to do.
In both states I’ve lived in (1 sales tax, 1 income tax) the state tax level is a pittance compared to Federal taxes. It hasn’t made much difference.
Tracy__5 Says:
Massive starvation? This scare tatic of fourth comming massive starvation is nothing but border line criminal on your part.
If we have to have a society consisting of soup/bread lines (and those do exist already, btw) then there will be deaths in the 6-7 figures. Modern society is too populated and too complex to be able to suffer the same pressures that we did in 1930 without commensurate reporting of a significant death toll.
Tracy__5 Says:
Ohoooo the midget man has magical powers?! Maybe it’s those aliens who he believes have visited Earth who gave them to him.
Citation please? Sounds like you’re talking about Perot.
You gotta give the little guy some credit. He was the only Dem to read articles of impeachment for Bush on the Senate floor, and he’s the only one from either side to jump into the current Gaza crisis with both feet. I don’t go nearly as far as he does, but I sleep better at night knowing he’s out there, manning the far, far, far left wing.
December 31st, 2008 at 1:07 amTracy__5 Says:
That would require putting competent people in government…
Already on it. You really should consider switching sides, it’s awesome.
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Tracy__5 Says:
No high sales taxes, property taxes, ect…?
Not relative to the Federal Income tax. I guess that makes me “insulated” from the rest of the U.S. too, huh?
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Tracy__5 Says:
(Kucinich)
Hah, I didn’t say I agree with him on everything (or even most things) but it’s good to have one guy way off your end of the political spectrum to remind you of where you stand. So whenever somebody says “Obama’s a far-left radical” I can say “have you met Dennis Kucinich?”
The only problem is that the far-out nutjobs on your end actually have control of your party, whereas Kucinich is basically a footnote for the Left. Let’s face it, most of the people in control of the RNC right now are a hairs-breadth shy of Mussolini on the right/left scale. Kucinich is technically there, but he doesn’t have any control. It’s a good model, you guys should maybe try it.
Thanks for the link, btw…
Aw man, that’s weak. I was expecting something way juicier. Most people I know could say that much.
December 31st, 2008 at 2:22 amFrom my view:
ElBruce………spot on every time. A true compassionate progressive.
Tracy-5…….more libertarian in nature.
What bothers me about libertarians is that their philosophy is like a religion. Never in history has unregulated capitalism worked. Never. It has always destroyed itself in a headlong rush to monopoly. No society with an unregulated market has ever led to anything but economic disaster. The “robber baron” period led to the panics of the late 19th century. The “roaring 20’s” led to the great republican depression. And, the last 27 years of modern libertarian/conservative economic dogma have led us to where we are today – on the verge of the “Panic of 2008,” with a destroyed dollar, an eviscerated middle class, record deficits and debt, record negative balance of trade, corporate fraud on an unprecidented level, etc. etc.
But facts and history seem to mean nothing to libertarians. They’ve got their dogma and they stick to it.
corporations will NEVER protect the environment when protection of the environment is not profitable in the short run. They’ve already proven this over and over and in my opinion, it’s downright foolish at this point to expect them to “do the right thing.”
Libertarians have no answers to the questions, for instance, of morality and responsibility in letting the corporations and industries run wild, causing the deaths and injuries of hundreds before correcting the procedures or products that are faulty. the answer is always “the free market will take care of it”, which may be true, but at a very high cost in lives and health. As a progressive, I have the fault of valuing life over profit. Therefore, I want good, solid testing procedures resulting in regulations that protect the health and welfare of humans, even as those very same procedures cut into the ability of the owners to purchase a bigger yacht or 4th vacation home.
Ron Paul addresses none of these issues. He is a simple-minded person, and squirms mightily when questioned directly about the hateful, racist rhetoric in publications with his name on them. While he would pull troops from Iraq, and maybe even the rest of the world, his domestic policies would be a disaster. He would be an isolationist presiding over further corporate rape of the American people. Not much of an improvement
The modern libertarian movement was begun by big industrialists like Coors and William Simon. It was a response to the growing political progressiveness and involvement of the strongest middle class in American history. It was seen as a way of convincing working class Americans that their interests were the same as the wealthy. The idea was to dress it up with emotional issues like drug laws and gun laws as well as flowery language about personal freedom and a peculiar interpretation of certain consitutional principles. It’s a huge philosophical “bait and switch.” Bait with personal freedom and switch to unbridled, unregulated corporate power. In my opinion, it’s a huge philosophical scam.
December 31st, 2008 at 10:53 amDon’t even beging to suggest that the federal government even begins to approach the efficiency of a most private U.S. companies.
Then you don’t even begin to suggest that the private sector could do any of those things I mentioned without the Government… when was the last time you drove on an entirely private sector sponsored freeway?
You assertion that the private sector would ‘create’ those jobs without the Government is laughable.
December 31st, 2008 at 12:05 pm175. Well libertarians if they were consistent, and I believe Tracy is a fine example of someone who is consistent and holds his ideals nobly, would stay off EVERYTHING that is government maintained…Wonder how they would get to work? What happens when they’re robbed or their house is on fire? Well, perhaps they could hire a private security force or fight the fires themselves as Rush LOVES to tout in the case of the San Diego fires a year ago…What about worrying about tainted food? Well they could build a private lab to test the foods themselves, but that might get too expensive for them…
December 31st, 2008 at 4:11 pmTracy,
Our Government is by the people, for the people and of the people…
Since you admit that PRIVATE companies could not function without the infrastructure provided by the PUBLIC why do you argue that the PUBLIC should have some say in how PRIVATE companies operate in the rePUBLIC?
We the people should just hand over our PUBLIC improvements to a few in the PRIVATE sector and be happy and trust them to do the right thing and contribute to the PUBLIC good?
You say you don’t trust Government to do the right thing but you advocate removing all oversight of the Private Sector… is the private sector less susceptible to corruption? Recent events would indicate the exact opposite…
Even if it were so, at least we the people have a voice in our PUBLIC leadership, we have precious little in the PRIVATE sector.
Ayn Rand is a hack, individuals do not act for the public good out of self-interest… but the PEOPLE can and do act for INDIVIDUALS good out of PUBLIC interest.
December 31st, 2008 at 7:18 pmor do you also believe in Fairies?
Don’t even beging to suggest that the federal government even begins to approach the efficiency of a most private U.S. companies.
Tracy,
this is why I am confused…
You say you want the Government to behave more like a well-run private company but then you say…
government does not and should not have ANY say over which and how many employees companies hire, how they spend their profits on their own capital improvements, or which projects they participate in…
… What well-run private enterprise would invest in a venture over which they would then have NO say over and could expect NO return from- only further investments? Most companies that invest in other enterprises get some return on that investment and some proportional representation in the running of the company, why should the Government (if you truly believe that we should model our government on private enterprise) behave differently?
Of course, if you feel that the Government has a different role to play that’s a different kettle of fish… ready to admit that yet?
December 31st, 2008 at 7:40 pmObstruction, likely has seemingly little to do with social issues; rather, ‘fillibusters’ are supposed to challenge the opposition party to query the spiritual moxy of ‘the stubborn representative’! IMO, fundamentally-agnostic-Americans-the NeoCons, cannot make up their minds about God!!?
January 2nd, 2009 at 3:34 pm