Report: Obama prepared to talk to Hamas.
By on Jan 8th, 2009 at 10:26 pm
Report: Obama prepared to talk to Hamas.
Barack Obama is reportedly planning to ditch President Bush’s strategy of isolating Hamas, and will instead move to open contacts with the group. “The Guardian has spoken to three people with knowledge of the discussions in the Obama camp. There is no talk of Obama approving direct diplomatic negotiations with Hamas early on, but he is being urged by advisers to initiate low-level or clandestine approaches, and there is growing recognition in Washington that the policy of ostracising Hamas is counter-productive.”
UpdateBrian Katulis previously wrote that "pragmatically dealing with Hamas is necessary for getting to some de-escalation of the current violence."
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Report: Obama prepared to talk to Hamas.»
- - This oughta give Sean Hannity and Fox News conniption fits. Maybe Dianne Feinstein too.
January 8th, 2009 at 10:32 pmBadmoodman, you left out Israel and AIPAC.
January 8th, 2009 at 10:35 pmThat popping sound is Reichwhiner's heads exploding.
The Reichwing media; where diplomacy and negotiation go to die in flames.
January 8th, 2009 at 10:37 pmthe policy of ostracising Hamas is counter-productive."
Hooray for President-ELECT Obama.
It's about time.
Israel is massacring people in their own land. They are blaming cilivians for being cilivians; getting in the way of their murderous spree.
Hamas side must be heard.
Ok who will be the first to call President-ELECT Obama Anti-semitic because he want to hear their side.
January 8th, 2009 at 10:43 pmGood! Hope that Obama brings former President Jimmy Cater with him.
January 8th, 2009 at 10:44 pmThis is fascinating. It represents the breaking of a campaign promise -- or implication -- that is the type we like to see. As SP Biloxi suggested, maybe this IS Jimmy Carter's influence.
I am beginning to think Israel's egregious behavior, committed in advance of its elections, COULD be a step toward lasting peace if it convinces enough Westerners that this story -- like almost all stories -- has two sides. How appropriate that our leaders will now here the other side.
The Constant Weader at http://www.RealityChex.com
January 8th, 2009 at 10:59 pmExcellent idea, Preferred-President Obama. If you want someone to stop hurting you, try to find out why they keep doing it. Maybe they have at least a few legitimate grievances which, if worked through, might leave the rest of their grievances too small to shed blood over.
January 8th, 2009 at 10:59 pm"...there is growing recognition in Washington that the policy of ostracising Hamas is counter-productive"
WTF? Counterproductive to whom or what???
More stupid double talk from people who don't have a clue about how to deal with people who HAVE NO INTEREST in peace! Hamas has one goal and you can go look it up.
BTW, there are no "civilians" in the Gaza strip. There may be non-combatants, like children for example, but those people voted in Hamas. They knew full well what they were getting. They have only themselves to blame. Period.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:01 pmHumans speaking to other humans, seeking common ground and attempting to resolve differences.
Oh.......the horror.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:03 pmAgain. A lot of you who post here JUST DON'T Get IT! Hamas isn't interested in ANY compromise with Israel. Go read their own statements! Look at what they do!
Are you people just blind, or are you stupid as well?
January 8th, 2009 at 11:04 pmFor the record: Israel is NOT targeting non-combatants; they are going after the terrorists who have already stated they will fight to the death, regardless of what happens to the innocents they HIDE BEHIND.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:06 pmTell me:
Who hides weapons in holy places?
Who fires off rockets from areas close to innocent non-combatants?
Who is it that wants to kill indiscriminantly by TARGETING neighborhoods?
You guessed it! HAMAS
January 8th, 2009 at 11:09 pmTim, has Israel shown any interest in ANY compromise with Hamas? Their (Israel's) military has stated that their mission is to completely destroy Hamas in Gaza. 700+ deaths inside Gaza, as punishment for 12 deaths in Israel? Not exacly an appropriate response.
And children in Gaza are "non-combatants" whose deaths you apparently feel are justified because their parents voted democratically for Hamas? You may think that we are blind and stupid, I think that you are a heartless ignoramus.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:12 pmIsrael has finally had enough. Every time they give back territory won during past conflicts, the people they give it back to just use it as launching pads for further attacks!
It's apparent that hatred for Israel and the Jews knows no bounds and will never end until the end of the world - at Armageddon.
Check out the Bible to discover the future fate of those who wish to destroy God's chosen people.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:13 pmJane,
Why should Israel compromise with a terrorist organization that seeks to destroy it? That makes absolutely no sense.
Your problem is that you are attempting to relate to people over there by assuming they are basically like the people you know - ie. reasonable and good.
Such is not the case.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:15 pmJane,
Actually, Israel's goal is to render Hamas incapable of firing rockets into Israel or to otherwise wage war. Israel knows they can't eliminate the organization entirely.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:16 pmJane,
No. The problem the children of Gaza have is that the terrorists use them as shields!
January 8th, 2009 at 11:18 pmThe lone voice of the irrational.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:19 pmHey, I have no problem with people voting in Hamas, but I think it would be interesting now to ask them if they would do it again.
Secondly, if they want to keep Hamas, but allow them to keep firing rockets into another country they should not be surprised when the other country shows up at their door with tanks.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:20 pmFred,
Perhaps I'm a lone voice of reason on this blog, but I'm not in the minority like you folks.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:21 pmTim, Jane said you were a heartless ignoramous. She already knows she doesn't agree with you.
You seem to think you are talking to the man on the street. These people are informed. You're not going to change minds here.
You can't justify what your shoveling.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:22 pmQuestion: how long have the civilians in Southern Israel been ducking deadly rockets?
Question #2: Who let the cease-fire lapse and refused to continue it?
tick, tock, tick, tock, tick, tock...
January 8th, 2009 at 11:23 pmOh TIM Vaculik... You cannot make a concise argument so you resort to calling people stupid .You get all hysterical, just like the neurotic Israeli policy that demands that if a few terrorists target illegally occupied suburbs, the people as a whole must be attacked. They (the Israelis) are garnering negative opinions internationally. When Jews start getting indiscriminantly targeted in other nations, it will of course be Anti Semitism. I would watch pushing that tired argument because after these actions there might not be any more WW2 Pity Collateral left?
January 8th, 2009 at 11:24 pmTim Vaculik Says:
Again. A lot of you who post here JUST DON’T Get IT!
Hahahahhahahaha... That is the waning cry of the defeated Neo Con. Your ideas are intellectually bankrupt..that is why no one takes you seriously.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:25 pmYou're just a legend in your own mind timmy. Nothing more.
Minority? Doesn't really matter when it brings peace....Ask your hero george. That's what he said but he was stupid.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:25 pmTimmy, will ya come back and apologize if you're wrong?
January 8th, 2009 at 11:26 pmTim:
January 8th, 2009 at 11:27 pm1) That's like saying ALL Americans deserve to die because approximately half voted (twice) for a mass murderer.
2) children were allowed to vote?
Yeah Fred,
I can see how "informed" you folks are. Actually, I realize that being informed or knowledgeable isn't necessarily the issue.
The problem a lot of you folks have is your mindset. You believe what you want to believe regardless of the facts or what an honest assessment of the Middle East would show even the most close-minded among you.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:27 pmI just remembered why I love Obama as much as I do. Always vote for the smart guy....
January 8th, 2009 at 11:27 pmLTdan Says:
Talking to our enemies already?
Yes LT Dan..WE are talking to YOU. LOL
January 8th, 2009 at 11:28 pmLTdan Says something about a lapel pin......
You're either with us or a terrorist, right lt?
January 8th, 2009 at 11:28 pmTIM..it's cool..we just don't agree with you. Shouldn't you be fighting in one of these wars you approve of?
January 8th, 2009 at 11:28 pmTim Vaculik Says:
Jane,
Actually, Israel’s goal is to render Hamas incapable of firing rockets into Israel or to otherwise wage war. Israel knows they can’t eliminate the organization entirely.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:16 pm
"Israel will push forward with its offensive in the Gaza Strip until it "completely destroys" Hamas, Israel's ambassador to the United Nations, Gabriela Shalev, said Monday, saying that the operation will continue as long as necessary to reach that goal. "
From : http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1230456524000
January 8th, 2009 at 11:29 pmLTdan, I hadn't heard that Hamas had declared war on the U.S.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:30 pmToo bad history isn't a strong subject for a lot of you.
It would be more satisfying to engage in a real debate with people who didn't get their news from the Daily Kos or the Barack Obama channel.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:31 pmTIM...volunteer to help them in GAZA. You can be over there NOW!
January 8th, 2009 at 11:31 pmTim Vaculik Says:
Too bad history isn’t a strong subject for a lot of you.
It would be more satisfying to engage in a real debate with people who didn’t get their news from the Daily Kos or the Barack Obama channel.
So true..it would be much better if we got it from FOX NEWS or The Ted Nugent website.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:32 pmSEND TIM TO GAZA!!
January 8th, 2009 at 11:33 pmReally timmy, well your mindset is identical to rummy and cheney and other failed republicans.
Just as tax cuts for the rich and deregulation is a failure and has damaged our economy, you and bush's forign policy's have damaged our ability to protect ourselves and has made the world more dangerous, not less.
Your live by the sword mentality has become passe and considered tried and abandoned.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:33 pmLet's see if I have this right. Hamas won a Democratic Election in Palestine but Abbas of the Fatah Party wanted to win as they work closely with the US and Israel. Now Bush and Israel planned to push Palestine out and destroy Hamas. What's suprising is how Abbas set back and watched Palestine woman/children get murdered. Israel knew if McCain/Palin lost the plan for invasion had to take place before Obama/Biden took office. Now Obama will meet with the Elected President of Palestine to find peace which Bush never wanted.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:36 pmIf only Bush could read and Israel wasn't in a rush they would have known Israel broke the 1948 settlement agreement. As for the UN there powerless as the UN allowed Bush to illegally invade Iraq and kill 1 million innocent people. Evil really never wins in the end as we see.
You can't re-write history that we already know. History shows that there have been peaceful times in Israel but none of them have been when republcans were in office........
January 8th, 2009 at 11:36 pmHollywood Markus Says:
TIM…volunteer to help them in GAZA. You can be over there NOW!
January 8th, 2009 at 11:31 pm
He can go with Joe the Plumber!
January 8th, 2009 at 11:37 pmWayne,
Put in the whole context:
'..."What we want this time is a commitment and assurances that Hamas will not shoot any rockets and will not fire on Israeli citizens any more," she said.'
Now, you can't do that if Hamas is totally destroyed can you? Further, Israel has not stated that they want to topple the Hamas government in Gaza, only to destroy their war-making capability!
Try reading more before you post next time.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:38 pmGotta love that condecention. The isolation methodology of a failed pres...ie bush has failed. He even admitted it and has been talking to North Korea....
guess you and timmy are all alone out there on a limb.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:38 pmJackie,
You obviously are the poster child for the hostorically illeterate.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:40 pmI can't spell at times...
January 8th, 2009 at 11:40 pmLTdan:
January 8th, 2009 at 11:41 pmWhy do you think the professor is a radical liberal?
January 8th, 2009 at 11:41 pm
Whoop...now timmy fires a couple of condecention turds at the Schnieders...its a flurry.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:42 pmHi Tim!
January 8th, 2009 at 11:43 pmI see you have been posting a whole lot on this thread. Could I trouble you by asking where you obtained all your knowledge on this subject?
LTdan and TIM....VOLUNTEER! Babykillers have plenty of options in this invasion.There are schools in Gaza begging to be destroyed. Maybe you can kill some Nurses and Doctors too? Bonus!
January 8th, 2009 at 11:43 pmTimmy and lt, you just have to deal with it. This pres aint gonna be your boy georgie. This man is intelligent and will do many things you are not going to like.
Therefore, I love it.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:44 pmTim Vaculik,
lost your job, eh?
sorry to hear it.
*
shouldn't you be
writing resumés?
*
have you ever thought
of becoming an electrician?
*
there's an opening for an
apprenticeship position in
alaska.
:)
good luck.
*
January 8th, 2009 at 11:45 pmTim Vaculik Says:
I can’t spell at times…
*
let's not mention that
at your next interview.
*
January 8th, 2009 at 11:48 pmWhat the stupid trolls fail to consider is that people change. A short time ago various factions in Ireland were committed to the extinction of the other factions. Not so long ago, the official policy of the German government was the extinction of European Jews. Some while before that the official policy of the U.S. government was the extinction of Native Americans.
Leaders die. Organizations change policies. Governments realize the error of their ways. Sadly, those who jack-off every time they see a picture of a bloody corpse are willfully ignorant of such things. And radicals get sick and tired of death.
People, to use the term loosely, who are unable to negotiate don't believe negotiation is possible. If stupid trolls were in charge (perish the thought) humanity would have been consumed in nuclear fire by the mid-sixties.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:49 pmI don't get it. Why aint timmy and lt happy. We have a new president who is very popular and now congress is popular again now that the republicans have been taken down.
I just don't get it.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:50 pmThat's because they are bloody-minded freaks, Fred. No redeeming qualities whatsoever.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:53 pmpete Says:
What the stupid trolls fail to consider is that people change.
That is very true..like as in how ISRAEL is now acting ( in an albiet smaller fashion) like the German government whose policy was the extinction of European Jew. Funny that.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:55 pmIt's true Pete and it makes me mean when I deal with their type. I just don't have patience with them anymore, the kind that think this is a game.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:55 pmTypical carrot and stick, dangle it and snatch it back. How many times have people hinted about talking to Hamas/Iran/Syria? The Saudis had a $3 billion deal with Hamas before the West trashed that outreach.
Israel will make sure there's no one left to talk with.
January 9th, 2009 at 12:00 amHollywood, although I think the metaphor(nazi) is more accurate than I would have assumed most Jews would be comfortable with, I find the use of it to be counterproductive......
It's like cursing around an old lady, they just tune you completely out after that.....just sayin.
January 9th, 2009 at 12:00 amBut notice they are just online..they aren't FIGHTING in these conflicts. Because we all know, and they know..that they are cowards.
January 9th, 2009 at 12:00 amstateofthedivision
You make predictions every day. Based on nothing more viable than your gut feelings. Will you come back and apologize when they turn out to be wrong?
January 9th, 2009 at 12:01 amSo, stupid trolls. How should the U.S. government deal with this guy? I think he should be sent to a camp and be taught some manners and humility.
Israel’s problem today, Rabbi Samson said, is that its Army refuses to fight in the manner of the ancient Jewish generals. “The Torah doesn’t see a difference between civilians and the military. Until the Jewish people realize that we are fighting a nation that has vowed to destroy us, our mission won’t be completed. If we were willing to kill their civilians, this war would be over in a week.
“I don’t think mercy is playing its correct role here,” he went on. “If the military operated without consideration for civilian deaths, think about how many lives would have been saved! In any case, their children are born with Molotov cocktails in their hands. These are a people as unfeeling as jackals.”
Rabbi Samson, New Yorker article by Jeffrey Goldberg
January 9th, 2009 at 12:01 amhow come every time i post a comment
tim vakalukalic runs away?
*
January 9th, 2009 at 12:01 amHollywood, although I think the metaphor(nazi) is more accurate than I would have assumed most Jews would be comfortable with, I find the use of it to be counterproductive……
Which is why i didn't say that. But you cannot avoid the obvious comparisons. Liberal Jews that i know have not failed to notice it either. Let's just call a spade a spade (no racial connotation obviously).
January 9th, 2009 at 12:02 am"how come every time i post a comment
tim vakalukalic runs away?"
_---
And here I thought it was something I said...
January 9th, 2009 at 12:02 amIsrael’s problem today, Rabbi Samson said, is that its Army refuses to fight in the manner of the ancient Jewish generals. “The Torah doesn’t see a difference between civilians and the military. Until the Jewish people realize that we are fighting a nation that has vowed to destroy us, our mission won’t be completed. If we were willing to kill their civilians, this war would be over in a week.
“I don’t think mercy is playing its correct role here,” he went on. “If the military operated without consideration for civilian deaths, think about how many lives would have been saved! In any case, their children are born with Molotov cocktails in their hands. These are a people as unfeeling as jackals.”
Rabbi Samson, New Yorker article by Jeffrey Goldberg
RABBI SAMSON meet RUDOLPH HESS
January 9th, 2009 at 12:03 amJoe, maybe tim's off making more turd-balls to drop here.
Off to bed - goodnight!
January 9th, 2009 at 12:04 amPoint taken and I agree...
January 9th, 2009 at 12:05 amIts really great that he's doing this. I'm glad it happened before he became president. It's like one last call to the public that the current administration can't do a god damn thing right.
January 9th, 2009 at 12:07 amARAB-EUROPEAN RELATIONS - Feb 21 - Blair Hints UK May Deal With Hamas.(Tony Blair)
Publication: APS Diplomat Recorder
Publication Date: 24-FEB-07
January 9th, 2009 at 12:08 amYou see, stupid trolls, there's a very good reason to talk to people who want to do one harm. "What's that", you ask? Well, sometimes those people can be convinced their wishes to do one harm are not in their best interests. It only takes one party to wage a war but it takes, at least, two to end one.
January 9th, 2009 at 12:08 amARAB-US RELATIONS - Mar 12 - US Support For Egypt Hints At Shift On Hamas
APS Diplomat Recorder, March 15, 2008
January 9th, 2009 at 12:09 amIgnore them Fred. I constently ignore your posts, but made an exception since you addressed me.
January 9th, 2009 at 12:10 amhow come every time i post a comment
tim vakalukalic runs away?
It's the same effect as holding a mirror in front of a misshapen monster. The truth makes them run, screaming, from the room.
G'night good people.
January 9th, 2009 at 12:10 amYou too, stupid trolls.
Since you made an exception, why not answer my question?
January 9th, 2009 at 12:13 amgnight Pete, I'm gone too.
January 9th, 2009 at 12:14 amTim Vaculik Says:
"…there is growing recognition in Washington that the policy of ostracising Hamas is counter-productive"
WTF? Counterproductive to whom or what???
More stupid double talk from people who don't have a clue about how to deal with people who HAVE NO INTEREST in peace! Hamas has one goal and you can go look it up.
BTW, there are no "civilians" in the Gaza strip. There may be non-combatants, like children for example, but those people voted in Hamas. They knew full well what they were getting. They have only themselves to blame. Period.
HAHAHAHA you little hitler...using your f9cked up logic: gas chambers were used to rid people of lice and unintentionally people were killed.
It's like your brain is physical backward and you don't know it.
January 9th, 2009 at 12:15 amdbadass Says:
“how come every time i post a comment
tim vakalukalic runs away?”
_—
And here I thought it was something I said…
*
sorry db,
you get cred for
knocking off that troll.
#
props.
*
January 9th, 2009 at 12:20 amGame of Life... That was exactly what i was thinking.
January 9th, 2009 at 12:24 amWayne A. Schneider Says:
Excellent idea, Preferred-President Obama.
I like that title. I think I will have to use that title. Thanks.
January 9th, 2009 at 12:27 amJane and Wayne S.:
Related?
January 9th, 2009 at 12:31 amWhy does Obama want to talk to mashed chick-peas with lemon and oil?
-GSD
January 9th, 2009 at 12:37 amdon't forget the garlic. There has to be plenty of garlic...
January 9th, 2009 at 12:39 amThe Jews are working overtime to kill as many Palestinian refugees before President Obama takes office.
How sad and how evil.
January 9th, 2009 at 1:28 amConstant Weader Says:
This is fascinating. It represents the breaking of a campaign promise — or implication — that is the type we like to see.
Doesn't break a promise. He said we'd be friends of Israel. He didn't say we'd adopt their enemies. He also said he'd talk to anyone anywhere anytime if it would help bring positive relations and prevent war.
But he does tend to break a lot of "implications," doesn't he? Maybe we should all stop thinking he's saying things he's not saying.
.
Coming late to the punching bag, but what the heck, I can't resist.
Tim Vaculik Says:
BTW, there are no “civilians” in the Gaza strip. There may be non-combatants, like children for example, but those people voted in Hamas. They knew full well what they were getting. They have only themselves to blame. Period.
That's sick. Civilians can't vote? Voting for the wrong person means you get to be killed? How can you vote with a gun to your head? That's not democracy. Why do you hate democracy so much, Tim?
.
Tim Vaculik Says:
No. The problem the children of Gaza have is that the terrorists use them as shields!
How? They're in an enclosed ghetto that no one can get out of. Israel is using full military heavy-weapons tactics against that ghetto. That's like saying some of the fish in the barrel are using other fish as shields.
.
Tim, here's the thing you people don't get. We're not on Hamas' side around here. Nor are we on Israel's side. As long as those groups are using methods of warfare on each other, we're on the side of peace. We believe it is achievable; it only takes the will to stop killing.
You believe that peace is a sucker's game, because the "other side" (i.e. whichever side you like less) are a bunch of unremitting dirty-dealing bastards. However, history demonstrates that conflicts between populations never turn out to be that simple. No society has ever been of a monolithic opinion on anything, regardless of appearances. Rather, people of one opinion or another have power within it.
It's worth mentioning in passing that your kind (murderous warmongers) presently have no power in America.
If you want to use violence so that "your side" wins, then you have to admit that no amount of violence will change someone's religion, their home, or their most closely held principles. The more Palestinians they kill and supress, the more violent the remaining Palestinians will become. Therefore, if Israel wishes to continue to use violent and supressive means to quell violence among the Palestinians, they will have to conduct complete and total genocide. Any other option only continues what's been going on for decades - slow bleeding of both populations, and utter frustration and cynicism for everyone watching. Total genocide is the only way to achieve "victory." In the end, there's only peace or genocide.
If you want to support the violent approach, then just come out and say it: come out and say that Israel should slaughter every last Palestinian man, woman and child. It's the only honest approach. But be warned that when you do so, we will have far greater arguments to bring to bear against you.
January 9th, 2009 at 1:31 amSolaris Says:
Why do progressives support Hamas. Hamas are Right Wing Fascists. Are progressives really Fascists?
Why do republicans support fascists, putting people in concentration camps and denying them food is the act of fascists, but conservatives love fascists wherever they are...
January 9th, 2009 at 2:10 amThank you, Obama!
January 9th, 2009 at 2:10 amTim Vaculik Says:
Wayne,
Put in the whole context:
‘…”What we want this time is a commitment and assurances that Hamas will not shoot any rockets and will not fire on Israeli citizens any more,” she said.’
Now, you can’t do that if Hamas is totally destroyed can you? Further, Israel has not stated that they want to topple the Hamas government in Gaza, only to destroy their war-making capability!
Try reading more before you post next time.
ROTFL!! Sure they have! Israel has repeatedly stated that Hamas is an illegitimate government they won't deal with!! RTOFL you're DUM BOL REPUBLICAN!!
January 9th, 2009 at 2:13 amSolaris Says:
Why do progressives support Hamas. Hamas are Right Wing Fascists. Are progressives really Fascists?
I quote myself, from the comment directly above yours:
ElBruce Says:
Tim, here’s the thing you people don’t get. We’re not on Hamas’ side around here. Nor are we on Israel’s side. As long as those groups are using methods of warfare on each other, we’re on the side of peace.
As you can see, the answer was right in front of your question. Way to go there, skippy.
Hamas are not fascist. Fascism is an authoritarian nationalist ideology focused on solving economic, political, and social problems that its supporters see as causing national decline or decadence. For example, Dick Cheney, John Yoo, Scooter Libby, George Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, Condi Rice and Alberto Gonzales all provide good examples of fascists, because they each subscribe to the ideology described above.
January 9th, 2009 at 2:21 amNwmuse has been gathering news stories regarding Gaza on TheZoo.
I'd be interested to know where Vacuous is getting his news.
January 9th, 2009 at 3:02 amThis is GREAT news!!!! Hamas won a legitimate election! Engage them politicaly and violence will diminished!!!! Great Obama!
January 9th, 2009 at 5:06 amTim Vaculik Says:
Timmeh. Dont keep embarassing yourself by talking about who has a clue. You are ignorant beyond human comprehension. You are so stupid you wouldnt know a clue if it kicked your sack then stole your wallet. You are a moron of gargantuan proportions. Keep telling us what the screechmonkeys who do your thinking for you have programmed you to vomit in our direction but spare us your ignorant take on who does and who doesnt have a clue. Reading your stupid post is hard enough
January 9th, 2009 at 5:13 amTimmehMoron for the record gives us the Israeli official spin. They sure are killing a lot of civilians for not targetting them. In fact here is something you are FAR too stupid to know. Isreal targets civilians all the time. They assasinate Hamas politicians. They shoot missiles into crowds they destroyed an entire apartment building to get one guy they ACCUSED of being a bomb maker killing 19 including nine children then called it a great success. They arrested a cleric in Lebanon when they invaded there then WITH HIM IN CUSTODY shot a missile into his house killing his wife and daughter. We know you sop up propaganda like sponge sops water and prefer it to ACTUAL reality but you are a MORON. A free clown show. Nothing else. You do nothing but humiliate yourself with your air of condescension as if you are teaching us somemthing when you are so ignorant and brainwashed YOU DONT KNOW ANYTHING. Your ignorance is monumental your understanding of virtually anything non-existant
January 9th, 2009 at 5:19 amLTdan Says:
STFU until you get a single clue. Cough up a SINGLE THREAT from Hamas against the US or any US citizens. You are a brainless moron.
January 9th, 2009 at 5:20 amThis is simple. Hamas WAS ELECTED BY THE PALESTINIANS. We dont get to choose the leaders of other countries. They won the election because Fatah had for more than thirty years failed to gain any traction to stop Israel siezing more and more of the West Bank. Even Olmert now is saying they will have to give up the WB. Hamas is who represents the Palestinians if there is ever to be an end to this virtually intractable problem then Hamas is who has to be dealt with.
January 9th, 2009 at 5:24 amSolaris Says:
You progressives support Hamas and tyhen confronted lie. I have never seen progressives condemn Islamic Militants. Leftists always support Jihad causes.
Why?
I officially condemn Islamic, and Christian militants. I think all religionists are batty. Your assertion is bunk.
January 9th, 2009 at 6:50 amThis is a small ray of hope in this darkness.
January 9th, 2009 at 6:54 amReading the troll scat, Tim really doesn't get it, does he:
Now, you can’t do that if Hamas is totally destroyed can you? Further, Israel has not stated that they want to topple the Hamas government in Gaza, only to destroy their war-making capability!
Shades of Saddam!
That he doesn't see the bloody parallel to our mission in Iraq is staggering.
January 9th, 2009 at 7:01 amAnd he invented the inter.., the ntier..., enter...; you know what he means - INTERNET.
January 9th, 2009 at 7:23 amSolaris Says:
Why do progressives support Hamas. Hamas are Right Wing Fascists. Are progressives really Fascists?
January 9th, 2009 at 2:08 am
__________
Sorry, Trajan - I believe the fascists are all on your side.
And you lie. We progressives condemn terrorism and militants all the time, whether they're Islamic, Christian, Jewish, or Corporate.
January 9th, 2009 at 7:33 amSolaris Says:
You are a liar and a fool. Are ALL rightwing morons child molesters or just YOU?
January 9th, 2009 at 7:36 amI just wanted to throw this out there. Its something people like Timmy V often forget. In the history of the area Palestinians have been killed by Israelis at a much larger rate then Israelis have been killed by palestinians. Generally its about 3 to 1. in some years its been as high as 75 to 1. Also, as far as being in the minority goes... The united states is one of the only governments that acknowledges hamas as a terrorist organization, we are in the extreme minority on that. We're also one of only a handful of nations that hasn't condemned the walls being built by Israel in gaza and the west bank as crimes against humanity. for more on this subject i suggest you read some Noam Chomsky. He's a very smart man who offers a great deal of insight on this and many other subjects... heavily based on facts and not emotions.
if you acknowledge there is a humanitarian crisis here, you see that Israel is playing a very bad role... no doubt there are a lot of thugs on the palestinian side who screw up the peace process but to say its all palestinians is dangerously and genocidally ignorant. Anyone who doesn't want to work with both sides to try to stop the killing over there is not thinking about the problem objectively.
January 9th, 2009 at 7:37 amJ. Jonah's gonna' be apoplectic:
WASHINGTON (AP) - Spider-Man has a new sidekick: The president-elect.
Barack Obama collected Spider-Man comics as a child, so Marvel Comics wanted to give him a "shout-out back" by featuring him in a bonus story, said Joe Quesada, Marvel's editor-in-chief.
"How great is that? The commander in chief to be is actually a nerd in chief," Quesada said. "It was really, really cool to see that we had a geek in the White House. We're all thrilled with that."
The comic starts with Spider-Man's alter-ego Peter Parker taking photographs at the inauguration, before spotting two identical Obamas.
Parker decides "the future president's gonna need Spider-Man," and springs into action, using basketball to determine the real Obama and punching out the impostor.
Obama thanks him with a fist-bump.
Marvel comics have featured most presidents, but generally in walk-on roles, Quesada said.
"I think President Nixon might have appeared on the cover, but not in a good way," he said.
Obama has said that as a child, he collected Spider-Man and Conan the Barbarian comic books. His Senate Web site used to have a photo of him posing in front of a Superman statue.
January 9th, 2009 at 7:40 amCan we please officially designate Israel a terrorist state and begin an appropriate military response?
January 9th, 2009 at 7:54 am1) Prove it.
January 9th, 2009 at 7:55 am2) Civilians ARE being murdered by Israel. Fact. The second link at theync.com (NSFW) today proves you are a liar.
GAZA CITY (AFP) - Rockets fired into northern Israel from Lebanon on Thursday jolted efforts to end the war in Gaza where Israeli jets carried out mass strikes on smuggling tunnels.
Three rockets fired at the northern Israeli town of Nahariya injured two women as Israel sent an envoy to Cairo to discuss an Egyptian plan to end the war on the Hamas movement which has left at least 704 dead in Gaza.
The Israeli army fired shells into Lebanon at the district where the rockets came from. Residents quickly started to flee fearing a new war front.
Sirens sounded again three hours later but it turned out to be a false alert.
Hamas denied it had fired the rockets and the Lebanese government said Hezbollah, the Shiite Lebanese militants who were the target of an Israeli war in 2006, had also made it clear they were not involved.
The Israeli government made no immediate comment on the strikes. But media cited military sources as saying the rockets were probably fired by Lebanon-based Palestinian radicals angered by the offensive in the Gaza Strip.
Probably Hezbollah-related. Hezbollah leadership's interests are seeing Hamas severely weakened but not completely eliminated, and a need to keep their rank-and-file in line, with some show of solidarity with Gazans. A rocket attack by a related faction was predictable at some point.
January 9th, 2009 at 8:04 amWhat did Hamas do the US? How are they "our enemies"? And, if they are, why wouldn't a country want to be diplomatic so solve differences? Are you really that obtuse, or just pretending?
January 9th, 2009 at 8:12 amI can see our kool-aid drinker, Tim, made a visit last night. He, like so many, have bought into the idea that Israel is doing what they're doing to stop Hamas from launching rockets at them.
The problem is -- and here's what the apologists won't admit -- it's not working. Isn't it about time that the United States accepts this fact? Israel is attempting to extinguish a fire by pouring gasoline on it. This will not stop Hamas. The only way to stop Hamas is successful genocide. And that won't bring a satisfactory result, because that will anger the Arab world enough to produce more Hamas-like groups.
January 9th, 2009 at 8:15 amA lot of good sense bring used on this page and a lot of nonsense. Some are willing to be filled with nonsense and some are eager to read and try to learn so it won't happen again.
January 9th, 2009 at 8:40 amSo much jew hating here, hard to know where to begin, so I will just stick to the facts:
The founding document of Hamas clearly states that HAMAS exists in order to annihilate Israel. If you wish to support HAMAS, that is your business, but you should know who are are getting into bed with.
In one year, HAMAS has fired over 4,000 rockets into sovereign israeli territory. I know of no other nation on the earth that would show as much patience as Israel has shown in the last years.
HAMAS uses civilians as human shields. HAMAS is just as interested in causing palestinian deaths as it is in causing jewish deaths, because the more palestinians die, the more the world press will go on a crusade against Israel.
I understand President-Elect Obama's willingness to have indirect talks with Hamas through underlings, but Obama is also smart enough to know that you don't negotiate with terrorist murders. He may take a different approach, but will most likely come to the same conclusion as Bush did.
So, for those who think Israel's response is inappropriate, let's see how you would act if your back yard were bombed 4,000 times or more. And the only reason why there are less deaths on the israeli side is because Israel invests in shelters for it's people in a time of war. HAMAS does not.
And finally, I am a progressive, but a strongly pro-israel progressive. So, tone down the hate speech of Israel, or risk losing jewish progressives here. If the progressive tent is truly as big as it claims to be, then have enough common-sense to not piss in your own garden.
January 9th, 2009 at 8:43 amProve it, you f**king moron. You're no different that a reich-wing GOPig that says "you hate America" when you criticize herr dubyah. You're such a steaming pile of sh*t.
January 9th, 2009 at 8:57 amSo, that justifies terrorist genocide against civilian Palestinians. Brilliant.
January 9th, 2009 at 8:58 amPlease leave! Seriously, if you don't like the tone here, go f**k yourself and then go play on the freeway.
January 9th, 2009 at 8:59 amDoes Drug Limbaugh know you are plagiarizing his propaganda?
January 9th, 2009 at 9:00 ambarfly Says:
Probably Hezbollah-related. Hezbollah leadership’s interests are seeing Hamas severely weakened but not completely eliminated, and a need to keep their rank-and-file in line, with some show of solidarity with Gazans. A rocket attack by a related faction was predictable at some point.
January 9th, 2009 at 8:04 am
__________
No, it's not probably Hezbollah-related. Hezbollah leadership's interests are in doing well in Lebanon's upcoming elections. They're not going to win votes by provoking Israel to hit southern Lebanon with another round of cluster bombs.
January 9th, 2009 at 9:03 ambonncaruso Says:
The founding document of Hamas clearly states that HAMAS exists in order to annihilate Israel. If you wish to support HAMAS, that is your business, but you should know who are are getting into bed with.
January 9th, 2009 at 8:43 am
______
So? The founding document of Fatah also clearly states that Fatah exists in order to annihilate Israel, but that doesn't stop the U.S. and Israel supporting Abu Mazen.
Secondly, we're not SUPPORTING Hamas. Nobody here is SUPPORTING Hamas. What we support is ENGAGEMENT with Hamas, and not the military kind.
We support human rights and freedom for the Palestinian people, and stand in solidarity with them in their struggle for survival against a genocidal power. That is NOT the same as supporting Hamas, and it is pure bigotry for you to even suggest otherwise.
January 9th, 2009 at 9:09 amOh this is delicious.
January 9th, 2009 at 9:24 am"Obama is also smart enough to know that you don’t negotiate with terrorist murders."
bonncaruso, can you tell me how I can tell a terrorist from a frredom fighter? It seems sort of confusing...
January 9th, 2009 at 9:24 amHow refreshing that the Oval Office will be occupied by an adult making grown folk decisions like this.
January 9th, 2009 at 9:26 amGSD Says:
Why does Obama want to talk to mashed chick-peas with lemon and oil?
-GSD
January 9th, 2009 at 12:37 am
_______
Now that's just silly. Hamas and hummus are spelled completely differently. Hamas has a long alif and the wavy S, while hummus uses a shadda and the beached whale S.
I mean, duh!
January 9th, 2009 at 9:31 am"...Counterproductive to whom or what???..." Let's see, how long have the Israelis and the Palestinians been fighting each other? So, the current paradigm is "productive"?
"Hamas has one goal and you can go look it up." Timmi, you need to get up to date. Hamas renounced that "goal" three (3) years ago. Please try to keep up with reality.
"..There may be non-combatants, like children for example, but those people voted in Hamas." Hey, Timmi, you voted for boooosh twice, and I think he should be prosecuted for war crimes. But I don't think you should share a cell with george at the Hague.
Timmi, Timmi, Timmi, my wife's flowers needed fertilizing so I'm going to help her spread your BS over the flowerbeds. Thanks.
January 9th, 2009 at 9:33 amTimmi, are you and Daryll and RaptureReady the same person?
January 9th, 2009 at 9:35 amJesssh, every progressive here knows that!
January 9th, 2009 at 9:46 am______
EugeneDebs Says:
"Keep telling us what the screechmonkeys who do your thinking for you have programmed you to vomit in our direction..."
January 9th, 2009 at 5:13 am
______
Deb, that'll deflect those comments about your constant use of "regurgitate what you were told to think." And not a sinlge ROTFL. ;)
Back to the topic: It's good to have a president who will talk to both sides without having to worry that he will expect either to capitulate to unreasonable demands.
January 9th, 2009 at 9:56 ammarkusmarkus Says:
“..There may be non-combatants, like children for example, but those people voted in Hamas.” Hey, Timmi, you voted for boooosh twice, and I think he should be prosecuted for war crimes. But I don’t think you should share a cell with george at the Hague.
January 9th, 2009 at 9:33 am
__________
Isn't that the cutest talking point ever? There are no civilians because a majority of them voted for a government we don't like. It's a ringing endorsement of collective punishment and a nice slippery slope towards genocide.
January 9th, 2009 at 9:56 amThe Guardian story clearly indicates any low level contacts with Hamas are conditional on a cease fire and reconciliation with Fatah. Conditional talks, how innovative!
Will disarming be a part of the cease fire or Palestinian reconciliation. If so, it's the Bush horse in a different color.
January 9th, 2009 at 10:18 am
January 9th, 2009 at 10:30 amIt's hard not to be angry at Israel.
I'm glad Jimmy Carter disagrees with Israely government.
I am a strong supporter of Israel and I have no problem with talking to Hamas. There is simply no downside. I think that these folks are determined to achieve martyrdom. Nevertheless, any effort in pursuit of peace is a worthwhile endeavor.
Obviously, idiot George hasn't made any progress. It's pointless to continue to do what we know doesn't work.
January 9th, 2009 at 10:39 ambonncaruso Says:
So much stupid in your post but I DO know where to start anytime someone points out that Palestinians are actually humans who deserve human rights or criticizes Israel in anyway morons like you come in with the stupid Jew hating idiocy. Take your stupudity and deposit it where the sun never shines MORON along with your talking points we have heard a million times. How many Hamas politicians has Israel kidnapped and assasinated? How many mortars has Israel pumped into Gaza? How long has their blockade caused misery there? How may olive and orange groves did they destroy? How many Palestinian children has Israel killed? Didnt Amira Haas report in Ha'aretz that Israel had in 2000 instructed their snipers to target Palestinian children? Yeah. Hamas has been pretty bad and no question has used inescusable terrorism but stop trying to pretend that Isreal is blameless and flawless its ludicrous. After all it isnt Palestinains occupying Israeli land its Israel occupying Palestinian land. THAT is at the bottom of all the attrocities which are CLEARLY done on BOTH SIDES YOU FECKLESS MORON.
January 9th, 2009 at 10:52 amupright left Says:
No unreasonable demands should be on the table since what must be done is clear. Olmert already said this. The international consensus is four decades old. Israel has to cough up the West Bank and give back the land including most of the illegal settlements. There needs to be a non military Palestinian state. Both water and security agreements need be negotiated. Israel has to stup trying to cut Palestine into Bantustans. Palestinians need to grow up and stop missing every opportunity to miss every opportunity by relying on violence and terrorism against civilians it is horrific, unacceptable and not in their best interest. This is known by both parties. THIS is what has to happen. Israel is beggining to say the right things. Hamas needs to stop the idiocy and begotiate. Isreal needs to make gaurantees as part of the ceasefire that gives Hamas something to take to their more radical elements and their people in general to reign in the nutbags. Israel needs to do the same with their settler nutbags. None of this will be easy but its the only path out of this madness.
January 9th, 2009 at 11:06 amOh yes also there needs to be a limited return and compensation to those Palestinian refugees driven out in 48 understanding that we arent talking about a number of people that will radically change the demographics of Israel.
January 9th, 2009 at 11:09 amDavidHart Says:
Definitly no downside. Talking can always solve the problem. It DOESNT always solve the problem but it always have the potential to. Theviolence club is always in the bag and everyone knows that. It is ever the elephant in the room. IF talking fails the military option is always available. I dont even understand people who think violence is the ONLY solution.
January 9th, 2009 at 11:11 amTim Vacuous would be the first one riding an atomic/nuclear bomb dropped on the USSR some years ago, ending the world.
January 9th, 2009 at 11:11 amBonncaruso,
"or risk losing jewish progressives here"
Go.
January 9th, 2009 at 11:12 ambonncaruso Says:
And finally, I am a progressive, but a strongly pro-israel progressive. So, tone down the hate speech of Israel, or risk losing jewish progressives here. If the progressive tent is truly as big as it claims to be, then have enough common-sense to not piss in your own garden.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
My Wife is a Jew. Concern for Israel is very strong in my take on this issue. No country can survive forever on a war footing. My FIRST loyalty is to God and to what is RIGHT. If YOURS isnt then get lost. No one needs your. I am going to take my ball and go home rhetoric. Leftys are going to disagree. If you are saying either agree with me or WWWWAWAHHHHHHH I am going home then go good riddance. Israel has been oppressing the Palestinians for 40 years and if you are honest you will ADMIT THIS. Settlers who kill Palestinian children sometimes do a couple of months in jail and other times are not punished at all. IF ONE settler is travelling on a bypass road ALL PALESTINIAN TRAFFIC MUST STOP. They set curfews they ration the water that COMES FROM THEIR LAND which Israel took. The settlements are CLEARLY illegal and violate the fourth Geneva convention and there IS NO DISPUTE ON THIS ISSUE. Isreal MAY be my main concern but I will NOT turn a blind eye to THEIR attrocities. The Palestinians are also guilty of horrible attrocities and should be ashamed. I will POINT THEM BOTH OUT. IF that damages your delicate sensabilities TOUGH.
January 9th, 2009 at 11:23 amsinge_101 Says:
NAH Timmeh would hide in his mommys basement and try to convince YOU to ride that bomb down while he holds down the for as one of the fighting 101 keyboard Kommandos
January 9th, 2009 at 11:26 amIt's basic Psychology. Talking to Hamas is common sense. I honestly don't know how people don't get that this is a smart strategy... And imagine that when it works, they still won't get it. Talk about unpatriotic? Republicans seem to WANT to be in perpetual war.
January 9th, 2009 at 11:29 amNow this is fascinating, utterly fascinating.
To all of those posters who flamed me with swear words and other such delicacies:
by your very own behaviour, you just proved my point. And not a single one of your brought forth hard, cold facts.
Second, if dissenting opinion is not allowed, then the progressives here are just as intolerant as the neo-cons have been.
Third, I can only encourage all to truly explore the facts before firing away. So, here are some for you, these details are incontrovertible:
Fact: this is the first time in history that the palestinians, as they are now being called, have been given a territory of their own. The brits didn't do it and neither did the turks. Israel did it.
Fact 2: the moment the GAZA was given up, terrorists put rockets up on launchers and began bombarding south Israel. Where was all the outrage from all my fellow progressives who are so much for human rights? Is a jewish life somehow less worth? The day that GAZA was turned over, the palestinians burned the synagogues to the ground. Is that tolerance? Is that a desire for peace? Where was the progressive outrage then?
Fact 3: shooting rockets into another nation's sovereign territory is an act of war. That being the case, war has existed between Hamas and Israel from the moment that the first rocket was fired. In a normal situation, the country being attacked would see it as it's right to fight back and even take spoils of war. But for some reason, since the attacked are jews, the world thinks that Israel doesn't have the right to fight back.
Fact 4: the IDF even dropped leaflets in suburbs of GAZA, warning the civilian population to get out before the bombing began. By doing this, Israel gave away a tactical advantage in order to save as many civilian lives as possible. I have never heard of HAMAS warning Israeli civilians before a rocket attack. Have you? So, tell me, which side is more humane.
Fact 5: as evidence, there is mounting footage of HAMAS forcing civilians to stay put and then HAMAS fires from their homes, knowing that Israel will respond. HAMAS is therefore killing other muslims, and doing it deliberately. Is this civilized? Hamas has indicated installations like hospitals and nursing homes and schools - to hide in, placing the civilian population in great danger. Is this in accordance with Geneva? No, it is not.
Were the same situation to happen between Russian and White Russia, I can tell you what would happen. Russia would respond to White Russia's rocket attacks by bombing the hell out of White Russia, and I mean, ALL of white Russia. Then, Russia would march in and demand an unconditional surrender from White Russia. Then Russia would annex between 1/4 and 1/2 of White Russia as spoils of war. And were the world to criticize, then Russia would calmly tell the world to go screw itself. And the world would accept it.
But how dare a jew fight back?!? My God, jews are just supposed to take it laying down.
Well, I have news for you: we already suffered one holocaust in 100 years, we will not acccept the ground-work for a second one from anyone, anytime, anywhere. So, politely put (which is better than most of the posters who responded to me), the world can go stick it.
So, the tirade of hate against me as a poster does not offend me personally, but it does indeed place this website in a terrible, terrible light and raises the question as to whether jews are even welcome here. I will be raising this question with the webmaster personally. Perhaps this site should be flagged as an anti-semitic hate site.
It is a shame to see progressives writing the things about Israel that I have read, and I would bet that most if not all of them have never been in Israel. How comfortable it must be to ostracize from the couch. Shame on those progressives for showing such hatred. Shame on them, shame on them, shame on them. I expect such hatred from neo-cons, but not from progressives. Wow.
January 9th, 2009 at 11:38 amhussein toasterhead Says:
No, it’s not probably Hezbollah-related. Hezbollah leadership’s interests are in doing well in Lebanon’s upcoming elections.
And your evidence that it isn't a group allied with Hezbollah is...
January 9th, 2009 at 11:54 amSolaris Says:
You progressives support Hamas and tyhen confronted lie. I have never seen progressives condemn Islamic Militants. Leftists always support Jihad causes.
Why?
I quote myself again, from the comment 2 comments above yours:
ElBruce Says:
I quote myself, from the comment directly above yours:
ElBruce Says:
Tim, here’s the thing you people don’t get. We’re not on Hamas’ side around here. Nor are we on Israel’s side. As long as those groups are using methods of warfare on each other, we’re on the side of peace.
Again, the comment nearly directly above your question already invalidated the question you asked. Clearly, you're not reading any of our responses. Although the most rational response to you would be to just skip over your posts, for some twisted reason I find repeating this point kind of fun for the moment.
.
barfly Says:
J. Jonah’s gonna’ be apoplectic:
J. Jonah is probably a freeper anyways.
.
jurassicpork Says:
Can we please officially designate Israel a terrorist state and begin an appropriate military response?
You know how I keep saying that rational people are on neither side? This kind of ill-thought comment just plays into the hands of the wingnuts who think that the Left "supports" jihad. Now, if you do support jihad, then come out and say so, and back it up some, because then you'd just be another flavor of wingnut.
.
bonncaruso Says:
So much jew hating here, hard to know where to begin, so I will just stick to the facts:
I don't hate jews or Israel. My daughter is a jew and I've called some people on their language here, particularly in using "Zionist" as an epithet.
I do hate what they're doing.
.
bonncaruso Says:
The founding document of Hamas clearly states that HAMAS exists in order to annihilate Israel. If you wish to support HAMAS, that is your business, but you should know who are are getting into bed with.
History =/= current events. We have to deal with the future, not get stuck in the past. Rabin used to be a violent terrorist back when it was Palestine. The fact is, anybody you might deal with on either side has a lot of blood on their hands.
.
bonncaruso Says:
In one year, HAMAS has fired over 4,000 rockets into sovereign israeli territory. I know of no other nation on the earth that would show as much patience as Israel has shown in the last years.
Actually in 2008, it was 1,750 rockets and 1,528 mortar shells. Still an impressive order of magnitude, but just saying.
I was having an argument with someone about this the other day, and she said "they've got to do something!" The problem is that if what you do is ineffective and evil, then it's still worse than doing nothing. I can't say what else would have worked well. But the fact remains that two wrongs don't make a right, and Israel's current actions are going to have a big negative impact on their security, Mid-East stability, and the safety of people across the world in general.
They are actively recruiting terrorists.
.
bonncaruso Says:
HAMAS uses civilians as human shields. HAMAS is just as interested in causing palestinian deaths as it is in causing jewish deaths, because the more palestinians die, the more the world press will go on a crusade against Israel.
Regarding human shields, I'm repeating myself again, but it's an urban environment from which no one can get out; so that's like saying some of the fish in the barrel are using other fish in the barrel as shields.
I hear people say this stuff with no evidence whatsoever. Maybe Hamas is primarily interested in the welfare of the civilians of Gaza. Fact is, we won't know, and I'm not going to take your word about it.
.
bonncaruso Says:
So, for those who think Israel’s response is inappropriate, let’s see how you would act if your back yard were bombed 4,000 times or more.
Please use the correct relative scale for analogies. If we're going to shrink it to "my back yard," then the equivalent is a kid throwing firecrackers over the fence, one by one.
.
bonncaruso Says:
And finally, I am a progressive, but a strongly pro-israel progressive. So, tone down the hate speech of Israel, or risk losing jewish progressives here. If the progressive tent is truly as big as it claims to be, then have enough common-sense to not piss in your own garden.
You'd do better to call people on specific examples rather than to hold yourself hostage. Nobody else here has a significant investment in your presence; that's entirely up to you.
.
hussein toasterhead Says:
It’s a ringing endorsement of collective punishment and a nice slippery slope towards genocide.
All genocide ever practiced has been justified first as "collective punishment." That includes the Holocaust. Furthermore, I know of no "collective punishment" cases that haven't led to outright genocide. As such, they're one and the same in practice: "collective punishment" is just the early stage of the practice of genocide.
Eventually they'll realize it's impossible to force the other side to renounce force through force. Then have three options: renounce all violence, fight on forever or kill every last Palestinian man, woman and child. Typically in history, societies take the third option whenever they come to that point.
January 9th, 2009 at 11:56 ambonncaruso Says:
Now this is fascinating, utterly fascinating.
To all of those posters who flamed me with swear words and other such delicacies:
by your very own behaviour, you just proved my point. And not a single one of your brought forth hard, cold facts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You are a liar. I put cold hard facts in my post. When YOU come in here accusing us of being Jew haters then whine and snivel in a way that would embarass a six year old girl you just embarass yourself. Did you think only YOU could engage in personal attacks? Bite me.
Second, if dissenting opinion is not allowed, then the progressives here are just as intolerant as the neo-cons have been.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Not allowed? Did someone say you should be killed or sent to prison? Your statement is stupid. Heres the thing. YOU get your say then we get to tell you what we think of it. IF that is too much for your delicate sensabilities that is YOUR problem but its just plain dumb to talk about your opinions not being allowed it was YOU who seemed to say either we began agreeing with YOU or you would take your ball and go home.
Third, I can only encourage all to truly explore the facts before firing away. So, here are some for you, these details are incontrovertible:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As were mine. I have read four different books on this issue myself ALL written by Jews your condescension is ludicrous since you are simply regurgitating Israeli propaganda. Do you get PAID by the IDF or are you a useful idiot?
Fact: this is the first time in history that the palestinians, as they are now being called, have been given a territory of their own. The brits didn’t do it and neither did the turks. Israel did it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Distortion. They have been living there since BEFORE the children of Abraham. They destroyed the olive groves and orange groves and put a blockade up that turned Gaza into a huge prison camp. No one is fooled but those brainwashed or desperate to believe the propaganda. Its all about the West Bank and Israel is STILL illegally building settlements there stealing the land with a wall and trying to seperate the West Bank into bantustans.
Fact 2: the moment the GAZA was given up, terrorists put rockets up on launchers and began bombarding south Israel. Where was all the outrage from all my fellow progressives who are so much for human rights? Is a jewish life somehow less worth? The day that GAZA was turned over, the palestinians burned the synagogues to the ground. Is that tolerance? Is that a desire for peace? Where was the progressive outrage then?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And Israel shot mortars into Gaza and continued to assasinate Hamas politicians and continued military incursions along with a virtual blockade. Both sides have behaved attrociously for decades. FACT.
Fact 3: shooting rockets into another nation’s sovereign territory is an act of war. That being the case, war has existed between Hamas and Israel from the moment that the first rocket was fired. In a normal situation, the country being attacked would see it as it’s right to fight back and even take spoils of war. But for some reason, since the attacked are jews, the world thinks that Israel doesn’t have the right to fight back.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
So is assasinating and kidnapping civilians and Israel NEVER stopped doing that in Gaza.
Fact 4: the IDF even dropped leaflets in suburbs of GAZA, warning the civilian population to get out before the bombing began. By doing this, Israel gave away a tactical advantage in order to save as many civilian lives as possible. I have never heard of HAMAS warning Israeli civilians before a rocket attack. Have you? So, tell me, which side is more humane.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And go WHERE? Leave your home or die. Great choice NEITHER side is humane. Was it humane to shoot a rocked to kill a blind parapalegic cleric and seven other people who just happened to be coming out of his Mosque at the same time. There are no white hats here. Israel is JUST as guilty of attrocities as Hamas. Remember Sabra and Shatilla? Pretending otherwise is just stupid.
Fact 5: as evidence, there is mounting footage of HAMAS forcing civilians to stay put and then HAMAS fires from their homes, knowing that Israel will respond. HAMAS is therefore killing other muslims, and doing it deliberately. Is this civilized? Hamas has indicated installations like hospitals and nursing homes and schools - to hide in, placing the civilian population in great danger. Is this in accordance with Geneva? No, it is not.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You are being stupid again. Israel is stealing Palestinian land NOT the other way around. Far more palestinians have been killed than Israelis and FAR more Palestinian children than Isreali children. Are THEY just supposed to take it? Are they just supposed to TAKE the stealing of their land? Assasination and kidnapping of their leaders? Mortars killing their children?
Well, I have news for you: we already suffered one holocaust in 100 years, we will not acccept the ground-work for a second one from anyone, anytime, anywhere. So, politely put (which is better than most of the posters who responded to me), the world can go stick it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You arent polite you are an arrogant JERK. I guess you just want to PERPETRATE ONE ON THE PALESTINIANS and the world should politly turn their eyes away? BITE ME PUNK.
So, the tirade of hate against me as a poster does not offend me personally, but it does indeed place this website in a terrible, terrible light and raises the question as to whether jews are even welcome here. I will be raising this question with the webmaster personally. Perhaps this site should be flagged as an anti-semitic hate site.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And perhaps you dont get to tell us what to say and perhaps it ISNT anti Semetic to think the Palestinians are humans that deserve human rights especially since Palestinians are as Semetic as Jews YOU MORON. FLAG THIS.
It is a shame to see progressives writing the things about Israel that I have read, and I would bet that most if not all of them have never been in Israel. How comfortable it must be to ostracize from the couch. Shame on those progressives for showing such hatred. Shame on them, shame on them, shame on them. I expect such hatred from neo-cons, but not from progressives. Wow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
Yeah we get that you think progressives ought to TAKE your abuse calling us Jew haters and such and say please may I take another? Personally I have had enough of that and you can STUFF your emotional blackmail you ignorant PUTZ.
January 9th, 2009 at 12:01 pmbonncaruso Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now this is fascinating, utterly fascinating.
To all of those posters who flamed me with swear words and other such delicacies:
----
Well when you are done with all of that, could you please just tell me how to twell a terrorist from a freedom fighter? Thanks...
January 9th, 2009 at 12:05 pmI'm very late to this party, but I wanted to thank ElBruce (and some others here - Eugene Debs, MissMolly, etc.) for some especially awesome posts. Kudos, ElB!!!
~ A
January 9th, 2009 at 12:06 pmLet me just address Fact 3 with Facts:
Fact:Israel didn't stay to the peace treaty.
Fact:Israel broke the Cease-Fire by bombing underground Gaza tunnels.
Fact: Hammas launch rockets as a respond to Israel bombings.
So now with the logic of "In a normal situation, the country being attacked would see it as it’s right to fight back and even take spoils of war. "
Hammas is being defencive not Israel.
January 9th, 2009 at 12:08 pmWait did I just turn your argument against yourself?
bonncaruso Says:
Second, if dissenting opinion is not allowed, then the progressives here are just as intolerant as the neo-cons have been.
Of course it's allowed. It's just very vigorous dissent. Toughen up and get better at arguing. In either case, quit whining about the opposition.
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bonncaruso Says:
Fact: this is the first time in history that the palestinians, as they are now being called, have been given a territory of their own. The brits didn’t do it and neither did the turks. Israel did it.
First off, that's not because Israel is nicer than the others. It's just the first time such an option was on the table. And I don't think you could call it sovereign. If you can't call it sovereign, then it's not really "given" any more than by the Brits or Turks.
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bonncaruso Says:
Fact 2: the moment the GAZA was given up, terrorists put rockets up on launchers and began bombarding south Israel. Where was all the outrage from all my fellow progressives who are so much for human rights?
There's plenty of outrage. But it's less clear how much control Hamas has over their own situation. First of all, they lack any institutions of control. Second, they haven't been granted the ability to control their own conditions of existence. So it's difficult to point a finger and say who's to blame in there. I flatly deny that blaming an entire population is either humane or rational.
Ditto this response to fact 3.
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bonncaruso Says:
Fact 4: the IDF even dropped leaflets in suburbs of GAZA, warning the civilian population to get out before the bombing began.
Sounds like a Michael Brown move to me. How are they supposed to do that?
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bonncaruso Says:
Were the same situation to happen between Russian and White Russia, I can tell you what would happen. Russia would respond to White Russia’s rocket attacks by bombing the hell out of White Russia, and I mean, ALL of white Russia.
That recently went down in Georgia. They didn't have to carpet bomb the population. There were official institutions that made targeting possible.
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bonncaruso Says:
Well, I have news for you: we already suffered one holocaust in 100 years, we will not acccept the ground-work for a second one from anyone, anytime, anywhere. So, politely put (which is better than most of the posters who responded to me), the world can go stick it.
So the only alternative you see to suffering a holocaust is to inflict one?
Right up until I typed that, I've been a staunch defender of "the right to exist" of Israel. But if the cost of maintaining that right is to give up the entirety of ethical thought represented by Judaism in world history, then Israel is no longer Israel either. So either it dies, or it commits cold-blooded genocide of an entire people. In that case, it truly dies, and becomes "Israel" in name only. At that point, it might as well be your favorite sports team, for all that means.
The only option is the third option.
January 9th, 2009 at 12:15 pmbonncaruso's facts are typical right wing facts. Like tax cuts and deregulation will usher in a new era of prosperity.....they arent facts at all. Just talking points.
January 9th, 2009 at 12:46 pmYou can't just make up shit that fits your scenario and push it off as facts. That might work in your cone of silence but people here are better informed.....
Turns our your facts are really just lies.
January 9th, 2009 at 12:52 pmAs for predictions:
http://stateofthedivision.blogspot.com/2007/06/busholmert-otherwise-known-as-he-who.html
January 9th, 2009 at 12:59 pmwhat if we just give the palestinians wyoming? there's lots of land available there...much larger than israel. i say we create a palestinian state here in the US! who's with me on this??
January 9th, 2009 at 1:16 pmYes.
January 9th, 2009 at 1:37 pmHamas is the democratically elected government - they should have the recognition of such.
Looks like a particularly genocidal nation (at least in recent history) is losing all their WW2 Pity Collateral. Finally.
January 9th, 2009 at 1:40 pmThey're not Katrina victims. They have a homeland that no natural disaster has affected.
January 9th, 2009 at 1:59 pmWell at least now congress's approval rating will go up now that so many repubs have been sent home.
They have been dragging down congressional approval figures long enough.
January 9th, 2009 at 2:00 pmi brought forth some hard facts. the simple fact of the matter is the Israelis have killed far more palestinians then the other way around. i even cited my source. i could go into page numbers but these books are not with me at the moment. Nothing about my statement is anti-semetic though, hell... i've dated multiple jewish girls. I feel that the israeli gov't misrepresents the jewish people in much the same way i feel the united states gov't misrepresents the american people on a wide range of issues.
when you ask who's perpetrating the most violence and who has the most power to change the situation the answer to both questions is israel and they won't be able to change the situation without including hamas.
that being said i also think hamas mis-represents palestinians and does far more harm for the common people then good continuing with the tradition of yasser arafat.
communication is the only solution unless you want the violence to continue. What is anti-semetic about my statements?
January 9th, 2009 at 2:36 pmWhat you've discovered, calavzma, is that anyone who doesn't actively promote the extinction of non-Jewish Israelis is considered "anti-Semitic". At least that's what the screeching Reichwhiners of the "punditry" tell them.
What's especially telling, in these kinds of thread, is the fact that no one, not one single post, suggests that Hamas should fire more rockets or that guilty parties who commit violence should not be punished. And yet? Anyone who thinks it makes sense to hold talks with ALL affected parties are branded "terrorist lovers", "anti-Semites", and worse.
Alas, where regular humans have gray matter, trolls and troll-like creatures have fecal matter. They can't wrap their poor, stunted, intellects around the ability of civilized people to condemn both sides in a vicious dispute. They are not capable of rational thought so they assume the rest of our species is similarly afflicted.
January 9th, 2009 at 3:52 pmI say we talk to everyone. If Nixon could talk to the Chinese, then we should be willing to talk reason to anyone who can be reasoned with. The Republicans saying we don't talk to those we don't like or disagree with is stupid and a lie. Nixon did it.
We also need to change our attitude with regard to talking to Cuba. Surely if we can negotiate with China, we should at least give Cuba a try. What can it hurt? Right now we have no foreign policy. WE have wars. And what is war in the case of Bush. Failed foreign policy. War is not foreign policy, when it is the first and not last option.
January 9th, 2009 at 4:16 pmpete Says:
Exactly clearly if you are not holding your allies and those you DONT support to the same standards you arent even PRETENDING to a moral standard. If you even HINT that Palestinians are actual humans with actual human rights then you are an anti Semite. Then there is the trick of snivelling that you dont condemn the Palestinians enough. When you condemn Isreal for something THEY did if you didnt post a laundry list of horrible things Palestinians did then you are anti Semetic but if you DO condemn what Palestinians did AND include a laundry list of what Isreal did wrong then you are again Anti Semetic. The whole attempt to frame the debate so Israel is blameless and the Palestinians are evil and anything outside that parameter is unacceptable is frankly trite and useless. There are no white hats in this tragic situation
January 9th, 2009 at 5:36 pmIsrael is not Judaism, nor is it all the Jews.
Have no false gods. That includes a nation-state like Israel. How many times have they lost it because of disobeying God? 6 years is short.
Thou shalt not kill. Get it? Killing Palestinians has not been working so far, they are getting more support to attack Israel. Rocket launchers are also wrong but we're not the true Judge(s).
Killing score of Soviet civilians would not have been a wise Cold War move for peace.
January 9th, 2009 at 6:34 pmhttp://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html
Is there a revised peacful one of these out there?
January 9th, 2009 at 7:03 pmInteresting.....
"Article Thirteen: Peaceful Solutions, [Peace] Initiatives and International Conferences
January 9th, 2009 at 7:06 pm[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement."
This is rather odd...
"Under the shadow of Islam it is possible for the members of the three religions: Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in safety and security."
January 9th, 2009 at 7:09 pmhttp://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
January 9th, 2009 at 7:11 pmNothing like, mostly, uncredited internet sources to set public policy.
January 9th, 2009 at 7:50 pmTracy__5 Says:
Is there a revised peacful one of these out there?
Not yet. Never will be, if your kind have their way.
January 9th, 2009 at 7:53 pmSeriously, stupid troll, is that the best you can do? I read some guy who said some guy saw some guy claim that the stupid troll parks his car on octogenarians. Better condemn that stupid troll to a life of slow torture before he parks his car on your Grandma.
January 9th, 2009 at 8:15 pmHas Israel ever repudiated Yitzak Shamir saying THIS?
"Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can be used to disallow terror as a means of war," he wrote, and "We are very far from any moral hesitations when concerned with the national struggle." "First and foremost, terror is for us a part of the political war appropriate for the circumstances of today, and its task is a major one: it demonstrates in the clearest language, heard throughout the world including by our unfortunate brethren outside the gates of this country, our war against the occupier."
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/199112--02.htm
Is that very different? While striving for the same goal? You can find extreme statements from either side it isnt in anway constructive to point them out like when the Israeli negotiator to the UN was told his rhetoric was unhelpful as he was talking about PEOPLE and said no he wasnt he was talking about Arabs...Beasts. OR when a high ranking Israeli said Palestinians would have to learn to live like drugged roaches in a bottle or that Arabs had no right to one inch of Eretz Israel which would seemingly call for driving them into the sea as when Ben Gurian said famously that "We must expel the Arabs and take their place.
Fatah used to say something similar and traded that in for negotiations. The Palestinians are under no illusion they can defeat Israel but the only card they HAVE is recognition of Israel. Peace CAN be had if the Isrealis cough up the Occupied Arab territories but if warmongers like YOU have your way Isreal will never have peace. Saying there can be no peace so its wrong to even seek it is Hobbs choice it ASSURES that since no attempt to find it will take place it will never happen. People like YOU will help destroy Isreal.
January 9th, 2009 at 9:03 pm"Nothing like, mostly, uncredited internet sources to set public policy."
What are you talking about?
January 9th, 2009 at 10:00 pm#170
I saw another lying a-hole here present a wealth of knowledge about guns but claim that he doesn't own one anymore.
January 9th, 2009 at 10:03 pm"Not yet. Never will be, if your kind have their way."
I am not the one supporting Hamas and their BS struggle.
January 9th, 2009 at 10:04 pm"Has Israel ever repudiated Yitzak Shamir saying THIS?"
I don't know and if they haven't they need to or should have.
BTW please cite someone with more UNBIASED creditability on terrorism about who promotes/carries it, out because in that entire article by Chomsky didn't once mention any terror organizations like Hamas or Hezbollah or the state sponsors of those organizations namely Syria and Iran.
"While striving for the same goal? You can find extreme statements from either side.."
Problem is I have heard a Hamas representative say ANYTHING that even approaches something akin to wanting a two state peaceful coexistance with Israel. I you have something by all means let's see it?
"The Palestinians are under no illusion they can defeat Israel but the only card they HAVE is recognition of Israel."
That is their ILLUSION i.e. that they defeat Israel which is why the brainwashing by Hamas of the Palestinians is so clear.
"Peace CAN be had if the Isrealis cough up the Occupied Arab territories but if warmongers like YOU have your way Isreal will never have peace."
The 'ol BS land for peace eh? That's already been tried and PROVEN not to work. Again did you even read Hamas's charter and stated goals when it comes to Israel. I guess Hamas would allow Jews to exist but ONLY if they turn over control to them and live under the control of an Islamic state, i.e. ruled by an Islamic government. BTW What "occupied territories do you think that Israel should "cough up"? Israel is such a small nation in which you can SEE the Mediterranean Sea from the elevated areas of the West Bank that it would be suicide for them to give up any more territory than they already have.
"People like YOU will help destroy Isreal."
It's people like you and that gullible idiot Clinton who got smoke blown up his ass by that terrorist Arafat who think that Hamas actually wants peace with Israel.
January 9th, 2009 at 10:35 pmTracy__5 Says:
I am not the one supporting Hamas and their BS struggle.
You are supporting the BS struggle.
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Tracy__5 Says:
It’s people like you and that gullible idiot Clinton who got smoke blown up his ass by that terrorist Arafat who think that Hamas actually wants peace with Israel.
And there it is again. People who want peace are "gullible suckers" because the "other side" are a bunch of underhanded bastards who can't be trusted.
You know what? The "other side" is saying the same thing about you, to people over there who want an end to slaughter.
You know what else? The claim that peace is a sucker's game has been made by evil supporters of mass murder like yourself since time began. It isn't getting any more convincing now than it ever was.
There are two sides to this situation, but they aren't Israel vs. Hamas. They're warmongers vs. decent people. You're on the wrong side.
January 9th, 2009 at 11:40 pmAh! I think I've found the problem, stupid troll. You see, when a person with normal human cognitive abilities sells an item, said person doesn't lose all knowledge of said item. I have very clear memories of each gun I've owned and several more that I have tried without ever owning myself.
And, I didn't say I no longer have any guns, I just don't have handguns. I still have an owners permit but, since I don't foresee any need for a handgun I, probably, won't bother renewing it when it expires.
As for dumbing down my comments to suit stupid trolls? Ain't gonna happen. Such a task would take the wisdom of a Homer. Simpson, not the Greek guy.
January 9th, 2009 at 11:47 pmObama won't deal with Hamas, 'Post' told
The incoming Obama administration will not abandon President George Bush's doctrine of isolating Hamas, the chief national security spokesperson of the Obama transition team has told The Jerusalem Post.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231424907657&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
January 10th, 2009 at 9:25 am'UN drafting ceasefire plan that would reinstate PA in Gaza'
A day after a United Nations Security Council resolution calling for a ceasefire was dismissed by both Israel and the Hamas rulers of the Gaza Strip, a new plan was being hatched to reinstitute the Palestinian Authority on the Gaza-Egypt border, according to a report in a British paper.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231424906909&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
January 10th, 2009 at 9:27 amRice: Civilian casualties hard to avoid
The United States on Friday expressed concern about the deteriorating humanitarian situation in Gaza, but officials blamed Hamas for Palestinian suffering and said it was difficult for the Israeli military to avoid civilian casualties.
"It is very difficult in a circumstance like Gaza, which is a very densely populated area," to protect civilians.
Condi gets the Madeline Albright Stone Cold Heart Award!
January 10th, 2009 at 10:16 amYou seem to think you are talking to the man on the street. These people are informed. You’re not going to change minds here.
January 10th, 2009 at 11:52 amPresident elect Barack Obama will appoint Dennis Ross as his top adviser for the Middle East and Iran.
What's surprising about this move? It's not change. Ross is a member of the Project for the New American Century, the neo-conservative group that shaped Bush's disastrous, heavy handed foreign policy the last eight years.
Ross co-founded the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, a group sponsored by AIPAC, the American-Israel lobbying group. The Institute's advisory board is heavily populated with NeoCons.
January 10th, 2009 at 4:52 pmMay I make a simple request?
Can people stop conflating Judaism with Israel? They are two entirely different things. By example, the Christian Right tends to be anti-Semitic yet they are strong supporters of Israel. Jews in the US are not monolithic. I am generally a strong supporter of Israel, not because I am Jewish but because the state stands for ideas that I support including democracy. BTW, Israel also provides legal rights to gays in an area of the world where being gay can cause one to be executed. Israel is much closer to sanctioning gay marriage than the US.
January 10th, 2009 at 5:32 pm#176
"You are supporting the BS struggle."
Supporting Israel in the face of Hamas terrorism isn't a BS struggle, but you probably think that our efforts in Afghanistan is BS struggle and is just more warmongering.
"They’re warmongers vs. decent people."
As far as Hamas is concerned please cite someone in that organization that isn't a warmonger and/or decent? Israel has been the one in support of the two state solution, NOT Hamas.
People who want peace are “gullible suckers” because the “other side” are a bunch of underhanded bastards who can’t be trusted."
When your are dumb enough to deal REPEATEDLY with people who can't be trusted, i.e. Arafat because his unwaivering goal is to kill those on the other side, i.e. Israel, and you stand in their way your longing for peace becomes a useless irrelevant pipe dream after a certain point. You apparently think Well the intention of brokering peace is what is important rather than actually getting things done and producing peace.
"The claim that peace is a sucker’s game..."
Peace in this situation can only come thru victory especially since Hamas has ABSOULTELY NO INTEREST in peace and living side by side with the Isrealis. Are there decent Palestinians who whan to negotiate a two state solution with Isreal?....absolutely, but please explain how you get those people into power when the majority of the Palestinians want Hamas in control.
January 11th, 2009 at 12:05 am#177
And, I didn’t say I no longer have any guns, I just don’t have handguns."
Yeah, sure you don't liar.
January 11th, 2009 at 12:06 amHow come no one can ever explain to me how to tell the terrorist from the freedom fighter yet they all ramble on as if they know...
January 11th, 2009 at 10:43 amBecause they understand that a terrorist's goal is to terrorize the citizens and a freedom fighters goal is to fight the invaders NOT to terrorize the citizens of the opposition. BTW I don't want to hear the BS excuse of "well terrorism is the ONLY way that Hamas can effectively fight Israel". If you are in a situation where you can't possibly win militarily it's in your interest, IF your interest is peace, that you sit down and negotiate....but in this case Hamas has absolutely NO interest in creating a two state solution with Israel. They are on a jihad that includes violence and only violence as stated in their charter....which BTW have you actually read it yet? This situation is an impossible one to broker true peace when Hamas has no interest in peace with Israel...only fighting.
A freedom fighter doesn't launch rocket indiscriminately into another country in order to specfically terrorize citizens. Israel has been guilty of terrorism according to others here because those who they are targeting, i.e. the Hamas soldiers happen to live next door to Palestinian civilians. Hamas knows how to play on the world's sympathies which is why they hide among the women and childern so that when Israel does try and take them out it causes civilians casualties. These sickos intentionally sacrifice their OWN people in order to get the international "out cry" that Israel is killing civilians.
If your goal, as it is with Hamas, is to terrorize the civilian population of the opposition in order to get the other side to stop their military offenses against your fighting force then you are a terrorist not a freedom fighter.
Having said all this it's YOUR turn to quit asking questions and start talking specifically about how you would solve this situation over there. Do I have a solution that would work?...sure and 100% guranteed to work, but real solution would never see the light of day considering Hamas hides like cockroaches among the Palestinian people.
January 11th, 2009 at 11:29 amSo this premise would apply to all of the Reagan era "freedom fighters"? What if they were to simply call those citizens collatoral damage, wouldn't that change everything. Please list those insurgent groups both historical and contemporary that you fall into each group. Maybe we could start with those tea in the harbor throwers...
January 11th, 2009 at 11:38 am"So this premise would apply to all of the Reagan era “freedom fighters”?"
Yes and I never thought those small groups inside the Contras force as "freedom fighters" specically when they started to use terror tatics and attacks.
"What if they were to simply call those citizens collatoral damage, wouldn’t that change everything?"
They would be wrong and no that wouldn't change the fact that they are terrorists. Did we support these butchers that engaged in these terrorist acts? Unfortuately yes but the biased reporting that when on tended to label that the Contra's main tatic for engaging the Sandinistas as terrorism which was incorrect, although it was engaged by both sides.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contras
In 1985, the Wall Street Journal reported:
"Three weeks ago, Americas Watch issued a report on human rights abuses in Nicaragua. One member of the Permanent Commission on Human Rights commented on the Americas Watch report and its chief investigator Juan Mendez: "The Sandinistas are laying the groundwork for a totalitarian society here and yet all Mendez wanted to hear about were abuses by the contras. How can we get people in the U.S. to see what's happening here when so many of the groups who come down are pro-Sandinista?"[14]"
"Please list those insurgent groups..."
Insurgent groups and terror groups are very much different in their tatics that's unless you think the terrorism i.e. intentionally killing civilians is a proper tatic for an insurgent to use. BTW why do I have to do your homework for you. Time to start putting some effort here and research yourself.
"Maybe we could start with those tea in the harbor throwers…"
The Boston Tea Party? Who did they carry out terrorist attacks on?
January 11th, 2009 at 1:28 pmSo you won't be making those lists I mentioned it seems. If you asked the king and the loyalists what do you think their answer would be? Tell me who were are the terrorists in Ireland, Sri Lanka, The Basque Lands? My nam vet friends tell me civilians were targeted, what does that seem to indicate?
Homework? I suppose next you will tell me you get to decide the order in which questions are answered. I say bullshit. You know nothing more nor less than the next personage...
January 11th, 2009 at 2:47 pm"So you won’t be making those lists I mentioned it seems."
No, do your own homework.
"My nam vet friends tell me civilians were targeted, what does that seem to indicate?"
Sound like they are war criminals.
"You know nothing more nor less than the next personage…"
You seem to know quite less consider you are asking me to do something you could easily do yourself. Don't be lazy.
BTW when are you going to answer that basic wage disparity question I asked a while back?
January 11th, 2009 at 6:51 pm"Tell me who were are the terrorists in Ireland, Sri Lanka, The Basque Lands?"
ANY of those thugs who carried out intentional attacks against civilian targets.
January 11th, 2009 at 6:56 pm