Bush: I Personally Authorized Torture Of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed
Bush: I Personally Authorized Torture Of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed
In an interview with Brit Hume that aired today on Fox News Sunday, President Bush admitted that he personally authorized the torture of 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. He said he personally asked “what tools” were available to use on him, and sought legal approval for waterboarding him:
BUSH: One such person who gave us information was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. … And I’m in the Oval Office and I am told that we have captured Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and the professionals believe he has information necessary to secure the country. So I ask what tools are available for us to find information from him and they gave me a list of tools, and I said are these tools deemed to be legal? And so we got legal opinions before any decision was made.
Watch it:
Bush staunchly defended the program, saying it saved American lives — despite interrogators’ claims to the contrary. He waved away the debate over torture by saying dismissively, “Look, I understand why people can get carried away on this issue.”
Last year, Bush admitted that he was “aware” that his national security team met to discuss KSM’s interrogation, and that he approved of the meeting. His admission today suggests Bush had a far more direct role in developing the specific torture program, which included waterboarding, a freezing cell, and long periods of standing and stress positions (all of which have long been considered torture).
What’s more, a former Pentagon intelligence analyst told Vanity Fair that “K.S.M. produced no actionable intelligence“; another former CIA official, who read all the reports from KSM’s interrogation, said, “90 percent of it was total f*cking bullsh*t.”
Topic Cloud
ArchivesBlog Roll
I see only one “tool” in the picture.
January 11th, 2009 at 1:04 pmWe used to execute WAR CRIMINALS.
Now we just give them a pass….
…Uh, Nancy?
January 11th, 2009 at 1:05 pmOk PE Obama. Bush just admitted that he is a war criminal. Now what are you going to do about it?
January 11th, 2009 at 1:05 pmWhy yes officer, I touched that child. But his inner spirit told me to… and I got a memo for it.
January 11th, 2009 at 1:05 pmAnd so we got legal opinions before any decision was made.
January 11th, 2009 at 1:07 pmBy whom? Nixon?
This is terribly wrong, but also boneheaded.
So this slug is sitting in his cell, stewing in his own juices… a fitting punishment for life… and we torture him, inciting more terrorism. This grants him power, fulfills a goal… all with our tax dollars.
If I’m a fiend, sitting there, I want to to something to hurt my captors, in this case bring in new attackers of the torturers… us.
January 11th, 2009 at 1:10 pmLet’s make it easy, just ship his ass off to the Hague.
Avoids all American politics.
Give Poppy something to REALLY cry about, if he lives long enough then Poppy can go watch 43 get the noose.
Dude’s a serious scumbag (actually both of them are).
January 11th, 2009 at 1:12 pmhttp://www.pubrecord.org/torture/607-additional-documents-link-bush-directly-to-guantanamo-torture.html
Additional Documents Link Bush Directly to Guantanamo Torture
January 11th, 2009 at 1:12 pmI wondering if Herr Bush realizes he just confessed to War Crimes to the entire frigging world. What’s he going to do now, blame it on the lawyers? Yoo-Who.
January 11th, 2009 at 1:12 pm“And so we got legal opinions before any decision was made.”
Really? Legal opinions, given by sycophantic toadies, as worthless as the sh*t paper they were written on?
Let me go rob a bank, and I’ll make sure to tell the police – when I’m caught – that my lawyer, Lionel Hutz, said it was just a different, but legal, type of withdrawal.
January 11th, 2009 at 1:13 pmSaying that you talked to a lawyer and he said it was okay to do something does not immunize you from prosecution if what you did was, in fact, illegal. The only thing it might do is mitigate your sentence, but that’s only if a reasonable person might have believed the lawyer.
If a lawyer tells you that you can kill anybody who sets foot on your property if you want, are you going to use that as a defense against murder charges?
Oh, and to have a really, really bad constitutional lawyer write your constitutional interpretations is also no excuse. Waterboarding is, and has long been recognized to be, torture. And torture is a violation of international law. Any lawyer who tells you differently should be disbarred, because they obviously do not understand constitutional law.
January 11th, 2009 at 1:13 pmI’d say that this qualifies as ‘blantant’. Okay, Obama – you have it. Don’t let us down.
January 11th, 2009 at 1:14 pmClose enough.
But seriously, that’s cool that now all you have to do to excuse illegal behavior s assert that someone told you it was okay.
I don’t recall that ever working when I was a kid…
January 11th, 2009 at 1:15 pmand let’s not forget the lies after abu ghraib about who was responsible there.
He is culpable for war crimes. And we are probably not going to even get a Truth Commission out of it, let alone actual trials.
I know Obama is thinking like Ford after Nixon resigned — but we do not even get that “luxury.”
I do not believe we will have any (reasonable degree of) justice. Damn it.
January 11th, 2009 at 1:19 pmJonathan Turley for AG!
January 11th, 2009 at 1:27 pmThe lack of a moral compass in this man is amazing. Since he fails to read it probably is not apparent to him that we in the last 60 or so years put people to death for this very thing. Not to mention as pointed out earlier documentation of the ineffectiveness of the information extracted is well known May he and his minions roast in the inner most circles of hell
January 11th, 2009 at 1:28 pmSave the tape…
Prima facie evidence or confession? Either works.
January 11th, 2009 at 1:29 pmBob Says:
Jonathan Turley for AG!
Amen to that !!!
January 11th, 2009 at 1:33 pm“Carried away?” Yeah, there was a Japanese torturer of Americans who was “carried away” and executed for war crimes.
January 11th, 2009 at 1:35 pmAnd that confession by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed? It was full of torture induced lies:
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1599861,00.html
January 11th, 2009 at 1:37 pmI’d like to say a prayer for the millions of men, women, and children in Afganistan, Pakistan, Palestine, Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Lebanon who’ve been murdered by the Bush family.
God, please forgive us for allowing Bush to murder these innocent people.
Amen
January 11th, 2009 at 1:39 pmSign the petition to AG candidate Eric Holder:
http://www.democrats.com/special-prosecutor-for-bush-war-crimes
then forward to friends…
January 11th, 2009 at 1:40 pmObama could certainly make the case that his priorities first must be saving the country from economic collapse, rebuilding infrastructure, withdrawl from Iraq, and ridding government of the do-nothing hacks of the Bush administration – so perhaps fobbing-off a no-doubt enormously-expensive war crimes’ prosecution to The Hague might be a good idea.
January 11th, 2009 at 1:41 pmThe US will not go forward if chimpy and his gang are let off.
The US will not gain its integrity until the wrongs are righted.
Look forward but don’t forget yesterdays.
If chimpys lies and deceits are not punished look for the next dictator to be more ruthless.
January 11th, 2009 at 1:44 pmGee… from the way both Botch and BiggusDickus keep pointing out their actions were “legally sanctioned”, one could easily come to the conclusion they’re worried about something. Otherwise, why all the whistling past the graveyard?
It’s a real head scratcher for Georgie, huh?
Continue to claim “legality” for all of this BS and hope no one ever comes after his sorry Cheney… or…
Issue a blanket pardon for all involved, including himself, which would be tanamount to admitting guilt???
Trolls??? Any opinions?
January 11th, 2009 at 1:44 pmCan Botch actually pardon himself???
January 11th, 2009 at 1:45 pmvalletta Says:
Sign the petition to AG candidate Eric Holder:
DONE!!
January 11th, 2009 at 1:45 pmQ: and who told you torture was legal?
A: The crony tool I appointed to Attorney General who0se main job it was to be a yes man.
January 11th, 2009 at 1:45 pmPresident-Elect Obama,
While it is a good thing to look forward, it is also essential that we investigate and try those who have committed war crimes — no matter who they might be.
Believe me, if you do not prosecute these criminals, the country will be more torn apart than you could ever imagine — by the angry and disillusioned people AND by the next round of neo-cons. What would hold them back from doing worse than they have done already…?
January 11th, 2009 at 1:46 pmby not exposing and prosecuting those who authorized torture we are complicitly putting ourselves in the positions to be tortured by our own government. just ask any german alive during the rise of the third reich.
January 11th, 2009 at 1:53 pmKeep saying : only nine more days of this war criminal.
January 11th, 2009 at 1:55 pmtony andlido
Let’s multitask Perferred-President Obama.
January 11th, 2009 at 1:57 pmMy question, is will the republicans initially sand-bag the Holder nomination over this issue? They can do little more than threaten filibuster, and delay his appointment, but they have no grounds to object, after Gonzo. Will their fall-back position be to try to seat a Starr-like special prosecutor, to control the scope, and direction of a hypothetical investigation? Starr’s selection occurred in a much different media environment, with the preponderance of people now,getting their news primarily from the Internet, being a major difference.
January 11th, 2009 at 1:58 pmDespite the legal issues, it is extremely dissapointing that this great Country has resorted to one of the lowest forms of human behavior.
January 11th, 2009 at 2:00 pmFor this party (Republican) to declare itself the moral party and then condone these actions in unfathomable. I truly hope that these so called Christians burn in hell for the crimes they have condoned and sanctioned against humanity.
the isrealiis caught eichmann
but they never caught mengle.
so was it better to be mengle
than eichmann?
or bush?
**
January 11th, 2009 at 2:04 pmHe has no shame and no fear, because Obama (The elected president of the MILARY INDUSTRIAL CONGRESSIONAL COMPLEX) is already indicating he is not going to prossecute the criminals!
The only “Change” in Washington is Obama’s discourse before and after the election!
SHAME SHAME SHAME!
January 11th, 2009 at 2:08 pmBozo The Neoclown Says:
Q: and who told you torture was legal?
A: The crony tool I appointed to Attorney General who0se main job it was to be a yes man.
Thus the meaning of circle-jerks.
January 11th, 2009 at 2:09 pmWere the folks from Interpol at the exit doors when he left? Straight to the plane waiting to take him to the Hague..
He admits WAR CRIMES on National TEEVEE !!! How much more blatant can you get ????
January 11th, 2009 at 2:09 pmNixon got away with his crimes, so Reagan/Bush got away wit their Iran Contra crimes, and W and Cheney thought why not do more. If they get away with it what will the next Republican do? We’ve been teetering on the edge of fascism for years.
January 11th, 2009 at 2:13 pmIt’s good to see Bush admit he ordered torture,how can the Obama admin not bring those who did to justice ?Some other country will then have to go after these scoundrels if our Govt won’t do it ,then what ?This is serious sh..
January 11th, 2009 at 2:13 pmThis is from my favorite Australian jornalist. I got it from antiwar.com
I’m still trying to learn how to link, I’m from the old school…
I’ll will not follow Obama blindly like a cult. He is the President of the USA and I’ll be critical of him like any other president.
here it is:
by John Pilger
One of the cleverest films I have seen is Groundhog Day, in which Bill Murray plays a TV weatherman who finds himself stuck in time. At first he deludes himself that the same day and the same people and the same circumstances offer new opportunities. Finally, his naivety and false hope desert him and he realizes the truth of his predicament and escapes. Is this a parable for the age of Obama?
Having campaigned with “Change you can believe in,” President-elect Barack Obama has named his A-team. They include Hillary Clinton, who voted to attack Iraq without reading the intelligence assessment and has since threatened to “totally obliterate” Iran on behalf of a foreign power, Israel. During his primary campaign, Obama referred repeatedly to Clinton’s lies about her political record. When he appointed her secretary of state, he called her “my dear friend.”
Obama’s slogan is now “continuity.” His secretary of defense will be Robert Gates, who serves the lawless, blood-soaked Bush regime as secretary of defense, which means secretary of war (America last had to defend itself when the British invaded in 1812). Gates wants no date set for an Iraq withdrawal and “well north of 20,000” troops to be sent to Afghanistan. He also wants America to build a completely new nuclear arsenal, including “tactical” nuclear weapons that blur the distinction with conventional weapons.
Another product of “continuity” is Obama’s first choice for CIA chief, John Brennan, who shares responsibility for the systematic kidnapping and torturing of people, known as “extraordinary rendition.” Obama has assigned Madeleine Albright to report on how to “strengthen US leadership in responding to genocide.” Albright, as secretary of state, was largely responsible for the siege of Iraq in the 1990s, described by the UN’s Denis Halliday as genocide.
There is more continuity in Obama’s appointment of officials who will deal with the economic piracy that brought down Wall Street and impoverished millions. As in Bill Murray’s nightmare, they are the same officials who caused it. For example, Lawrence Summers will run the National Economic Council. As treasury secretary, according to the New York Times, he “championed the law that deregulated derivatives, the… instruments – aka toxic assets – that have spread financial losses [and] refused to heed critics who warned of dangers to come.”
There is logic here. Contrary to myth, Obama’s campaign was funded largely by rapacious capital, such as Citigroup and others responsible for the sub-prime mortgage scandal, whose victims were mostly African Americans and other poor people.
Is this a grand betrayal? Obama has never hidden his record as a man of a system described by Martin Luther King as “the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today.” Obama’s dalliance as a soft critic of the disaster in Iraq was in line with most Establishment opinion that it was “dumb.” His fans include the war criminals Tony Blair, who has “hailed” his appointments, and Henry Kissinger, who describes the appointment of Hillary Clinton as “outstanding.” One of John McCain’s principal advisers, Max Boot, who is on the Republican Party’s far right, said: “I am “gobsmacked by these appointments. [They] could just as easily have come from a President McCain.”
Obama’s victory is historic, not only because he will be the first black president, but because he tapped in to a great popular movement among America’s minorities and the young outside the Democratic Party. In 2006 Latinos, the country’s largest minority, took America by surprise when they poured into the cities to protest against George W Bush’s draconian immigration laws. They chanted: “Si, se puede!” (“Yes we can!”), a slogan Obama later claimed as his own. His secretary for homeland security is Janet Napolitano who, as governor of Arizona, made her name by stoking hostility against Latino immigrants. She has militarized her state’s border with Mexico and supported the building of a hideous wall, similar to the one dividing occupied Palestine.
On election eve, reported Gallup, most Obama supporters were “engaged” but “deeply pessimistic about the country’s future direction.” My guess is that many people knew what was coming, but hoped for the best. In exploiting this hope, Obama has all but neutered the antiwar movement that is historically allied to the Democrats. After all, who can argue with the symbol of the first black president in this country of slavery, regardless of whether he is a warmonger? As Noam Chomsky has pointed out, Obama is a “brand” like none other, having won the highest advertising campaign accolade and attracted unprecedented sums of money. The brand will sell for a while. He will close Guantanamo Bay, whose inmates represent less than one per cent of America’s 27,000 “ghost prisoners.” He will continue to make stirring, platitudinous speeches, but the tears will dry as people understand that President Obama is the latest manager of an ideological machine that transcends electoral power. Asked what his supporters would do when reality intruded, Stephen Walt, an Obama adviser, said: “They have nowhere else to go.”
Not yet. If there is a happy ending to the Groundhog Day of repeated wars and plunder, it may well be found in the very mass movement whose enthusiasts registered voters and knocked on doors and brought Obama to power. Will they now be satisfied as spectators to the cynicism of “continuity”? In less than three months, millions of angry Americans have been politicized by the spectacle of billions of dollars of handouts to Wall Street as they struggle to save their jobs and homes. It as if seeds have begun to sprout beneath the political snow. And history, like Groundhog Day, can repeat itself. Few predicted the epoch-making events of the 1960s and the speed with which they happened. As a beneficiary of that time, Obama should know that when the blinkers are removed, anything is possible.
January 11th, 2009 at 2:15 pmAnd how many times has he and all spokespersons for his administration claimed “We Do Not Torture”? They may have to reserve a whole fleet of 757s to ferry this crowd to The Hague soon!
January 11th, 2009 at 2:17 pmand here is another excellent article from John Pilger:
November 24, 2008
by John Pilger
My first visit to Texas was in 1968, on the fifth anniversary of the assassination of president John F. Kennedy in Dallas. I drove south, following the line of telegraph poles to the small town of Midlothian, where I met Penn Jones Jr., editor of the Midlothian Mirror. Except for his drawl and fine boots, everything about Penn was the antithesis of the Texas stereotype. Having exposed racists of the John Birch Society, his printing press had been repeatedly firebombed. Week after week, he painstakingly assembled evidence that all but demolished the official version of Kennedy’s murder.
This was journalism as it had been before corporate journalism was invented, before the first schools of journalism were set up and a mythology of liberal neutrality was spun around those whose “professionalism” and “objectivity” carried an unspoken obligation to ensure that news and opinion were in tune with an establishment consensus, regardless of the truth. Journalists such as Penn Jones, independent of vested power, indefatigable and principled, often reflect ordinary American attitudes, which have seldom conformed to the stereotypes promoted by the corporate media on both sides of the Atlantic. Read American Dreams: Lost and Found by the masterly Studs Terkel, who died the other day, or scan the surveys that unerringly attribute enlightened views to a majority who believe that “government should care for those who cannot care for themselves” and are prepared to pay higher taxes for universal health care, who support nuclear disarmament and want their troops out of other people’s countries.
Returning to Texas, I am struck again by those so unlike the redneck stereotype, in spite of the burden of a form of brainwashing placed on most Americans from a tender age: that theirs is the most superior society in the history of the world, and all means are justified, including the spilling of copious blood, in maintaining that superiority.
That is the subtext of Barack Obama’s “oratory.” He says he wants to build up U.S. military power; and he threatens to ignite a new war in Pakistan, killing yet more brown-skinned people. That will bring tears, too. Unlike those on election night, these other tears will be unseen in Chicago and London. This is not to doubt the sincerity of much of the response to Obama’s election, which happened not because of the unction that has passed for news reporting from America since 4 November (e.g. “liberal Americans smiled and the world smiled with them”) but for the same reasons that millions of angry emails were sent to the White House and Congress when the “bailout” of Wall Street was revealed, and because most Americans are fed up with war.
Two years ago, this antiwar vote installed a Democratic majority in Congress, only to watch the Democrats hand over more money to George W. Bush to continue his blood fest. For his part, the “antiwar” Obama never said the illegal invasion of Iraq was wrong, merely that it was a “mistake.” Thereafter, he voted in to give Bush what he wanted. Yes, Obama’s election is historic, a symbol of great change to many. But it is equally true that the American elite has grown adept at using the black middle and management class. The courageous Martin Luther King recognized this when he linked the human rights of black Americans with the human rights of the Vietnamese, then being slaughtered by a liberal Democratic administration. And he was shot. In striking contrast, a young black major serving in Vietnam, Colin Powell, was used to “investigate” and whitewash the infamous My Lai massacre. As Bush’s secretary of state, Powell was often described as a “liberal” and was considered ideal to lie to the United Nations about Iraq’s nonexistent weapons of mass destruction. Condoleezza Rice, lauded as a successful black woman, has worked assiduously to deny the Palestinians justice.
Obama’s first two crucial appointments represent a denial of the wishes of his supporters on the principal issues on which they voted. The vice-president-elect, Joe Biden, is a proud warmaker and Zionist. Rahm Emanuel, who is to be the all-important White House chief of staff, is a fervent “neoliberal” devoted to the doctrine that led to the present economic collapse and impoverishment of millions. He is also an “Israel-first” Zionist who served in the Israeli army and opposes meaningful justice for the Palestinians – an injustice that is at the root of Muslim people’s loathing of the United States and the spawning of jihadism.
No serious scrutiny of this is permitted within the histrionics of Obamamania, just as no serious scrutiny of the betrayal of the majority of black South Africans was permitted within the “Mandela moment.” This is especially marked in Britain, where America’s divine right to “lead” is important to elite British interests. The once respected Observer newspaper, which supported Bush’s war in Iraq, echoing his fabricated evidence, now announces, without evidence, that “America has restored the world’s faith in its ideals.” These “ideals,” which Obama will swear to uphold, have overseen, since 1945, the destruction of 50 governments, including democracies, and 30 popular liberation movements, causing the deaths of countless men, women and children.
None of this was uttered during the election campaign. Had it been allowed, there might even have been recognition that liberalism as a narrow, supremely arrogant, war-making ideology is destroying liberalism as a reality. Prior to Blair’s criminal warmaking, ideology was denied by him and his media mystics. “Blair can be a beacon to the world,” declared the Guardian in 1997. “[He is] turning leadership into an art form.”
Today, merely insert “Obama.” As for historic moments, there is another that has gone unreported but is well under way – liberal democracy’s shift towards a corporate dictatorship, managed by people regardless of ethnicity, with the media as its clichéd façade. “True democracy,” wrote Penn Jones Jr., the Texas truth-teller, “is constant vigilance: not thinking the way you’re meant to think and keeping your eyes wide open at all times.”
January 11th, 2009 at 2:18 pmWait. Didn’t this lying bastard along with the other lying bastard Dana Perino just say in recent days that the United States “doesn’t torture”? With so many lies in the Bush years it must be extremely difficult to keep those lies straight.
January 11th, 2009 at 2:22 pmFor 7 years President Bush has told the American people and the World the US does not Torture. Now he is saying for 7 years he’s lied to everyone. If he thought he was right and had reasons to torture why not just admit it and why did he lie about it for all those years.
The US President were once trusted by foreign leaders based on their word until GW. Tony Blair will have to explain how he lied to his citizens as will all who supported the lie Bush has been telling. This action by Bush and Cheney is a dare to the Obama/Biden Administration. Now that the truth is out Obama/Biden are faced with does a President/Vice President have the right to break the law? The United Nations is faced with the same situation as other countries will follow the Bush Policy. Israel has already tested the Policy by having the Palestine Holocaust Massacre and with the famous statement by Lady who wants to be the Israel leader come election time. She said if one Israel Jew dies all Palestine people must die. She sound just like the pharaoh when he tried to kill all the Jewish people.
January 11th, 2009 at 2:24 pm*Colonel Jessep, did you order the Code Red?*
January 11th, 2009 at 2:29 pmJudge Randolph: You *don’t* have to answer that question!
Col. Jessep: I’ll answer the question!
[to Kaffee]
Col. Jessep: You want answers?
Kaffee: I think I’m entitled.
Col. Jessep: *You want answers?*
Kaffee: *I want the truth!*
Col. Jessep: *You can’t handle the truth!*
[pauses]
Col. Jessep: Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago’s death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don’t want the truth because deep down in places you don’t talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don’t give a damn what you think you are entitled to.
Kaffee: Did you order the Code Red?
Col. Jessep: I did the job I…
Kaffee: *Did you order the Code Red?*
Col. Jessep: *You’re Goddamned right I did!*
P’raps we should abstain from attacking President-elect Obama for a few weeks, at least? The man has not even moved in–and “could not be accommodated” in the proper, traditional manner because of “prior commitments” amounting to one day–and already he is being judged? Being proactive is well and good. Being prematurely negative is not.
January 11th, 2009 at 2:30 pmGET READY FOR A WAR CRIME/CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY TRIAL AT THE UNITED NATIONS.
Yes no need for evidence as President Bush’s has admitted it with his own words. Many innocent innocent men/woman/children were torture/rape/murdered under the orders of the President of the United States. Even US soldiers who followed those orders were convicted and sent to prisoner for torture while following the Presidents orders.
January 11th, 2009 at 2:31 pmsacopenapa Says:
We GET it. Let’s condemn Obama preemptively, why wait for his inauguration.
January 11th, 2009 at 2:32 pmtelestai2 Says:
They can’t wait to persecute Obama just like they did Bill Clinton. These faux progressives first pretended to support Hillary before Obama got nominated and now they’re acting like they voted for Obama and are just disgusted with his actions. I think they’re all just Republican trolls.
January 11th, 2009 at 2:34 pmIn contrast to my prior concerns, I offer a big round of applause for Obama’s neocon appointment, Dennis Ross.
Surely TP will share the good news soon of our President’s highest adviser on the Middle East and Iran.
Change…
January 11th, 2009 at 2:40 pmBush and Cheney believe that because they SAY it isn’t torture, that makes it OK.
What they say is bullsh!t.
When they boldly announced to all the world that they used means universally defined as torture, they should have been arrested on the spot.
What investigating needs to be done if they have already confessed?
January 11th, 2009 at 2:42 pmAnd a big shout out for bipartisanship! Dennis Ross donated to the I. Lewis Libby Defense Fund.
The Libby Legal Defense Trust has taken in more than $3 million from hundreds of donors, according to a person involved with the trust. The trust advisory board is populated primarily by prominent Republicans, including an antidrug activist and former ambassador to Italy, Mel Sembler; a former president of the Public Broadcasting Service, Richard Carlson, and a former Port Authority chairman, Lewis Eisenberg. The panel also includes a former Middle East negotiator under President Clinton, Dennis Ross.
http://www.nysun.com/national/all-star-game-taking-shape-in-libbys-trial/46741/
January 11th, 2009 at 2:54 pmprecedent dinkledoofus you are an utter moron because the two tools Addington and Yoo (both Cheney operatives) as to what tools you could ue, and as Mark Danner has pointed out so eloquently:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/torture/interviews/danner.html
“… When it comes, for example, to presidential power, if you look at these memos, and in particular the torture memo, you see one of its arguments is that the president in essence during wartime can do what he wants. There is a very strong argument, or at least very vigorous argument, saying that in effect, you cannot limit the president’s power to interrogate a prisoner as he wants, because it’s in his power; that is, the executive and international treaties cannot so limit the president.
Now, that particular argument, so far as I can tell, is not accepted by the mainstream at all of legal opinion in this country. In the memo, you do not see cited major precedents. The actual key precedents on issues of presidential power, one of which is Youngstown Steel, which had to do with President Truman seizing the steel mills during the Korean War, very famous case, key case on the limitation of presidential power, it’s not even in the memo.
So in order to argue that in essence these are nonpolitical arguments, these are simply lawyers telling you what they believe, it seems to me you have to have at least a mildly convincing argument that the legal homework has been done. And if you look at these documents, as far as I can tell, the legal homework hasn’t been done. What they are doing is arguing very strongly a particular position in the guise of giving you a neutral legal opinion.”
You utter baffoon. You let DICK play you for 8 years, and your father sat by and watched. What a dysfunctional, traitorous family. Prescott should have been killed.
January 11th, 2009 at 2:56 pmThe thing is that he authorized Jack Bauer to do it, not understanding the difference between reality and fantasy.
January 11th, 2009 at 3:02 pmIf this man goes unpunished for his crimes, then I motion that all prisoners held in US prisons be released. Crime rules.
January 11th, 2009 at 3:04 pmIf Obama pardons this fuking twit at inaugeration, I am getting in my car, gasing up and going out and driving into something and blowing myself up. I am out if Obama does anymore covering up for this cocksucker.
January 11th, 2009 at 3:07 pmHopefully I can still find a local GOP headquarters to decimate.
January 11th, 2009 at 3:08 pmThe Republic of Stupidity Says:
Can Botch actually pardon himself???
No, the president cannot pardon anyone for treason.
January 11th, 2009 at 3:09 pmThis son of privilege has always gotten away with whatever $hit he has decided to pull. It’s high time he paid the price for his arrogance and cruelty. Where are all the law and order Repukes? They only want the poor, the dark skinned and the underclasses held to account.
January 11th, 2009 at 3:12 pmSounds like a confession to me. Bring him in, DoJ.
January 11th, 2009 at 3:13 pmHandcuffs now!
January 11th, 2009 at 3:14 pmnot that it matters, but i believe W has his timeline wrong. I believe the true series of events was first they agreed to torture (I’m sure after consulting all the experts in the field) and then they got the low-level lawyer to write their legal justification for why they didn’t have to cal it torture. but, hey, that’s so 2003, can’t we just move forward
January 11th, 2009 at 3:15 pmTaze that idiot, he’s resisting.
January 11th, 2009 at 3:15 pmHe needs a big cop applying a knee between the shoulders.
January 11th, 2009 at 3:17 pm(continued…)
BUSH: And then there’s the time we sacrificed that baby…
HUME: You what?
BUSH: A baby. Dick said his lord and master Thrognozar or something needed to be appeased for winning us the 2004 election. So anyhoo, Condi rounded us up a rugrat, and we strung that little sucker –
HUME: Mr. President, are you sure you want to say this on national television?
BUSH: Yeah sure, it don’t matter. See first, I told Gonzales to tell me it was legal, so it’s legal. He said we’re at war with Terror itself, so I have infinite power.
HUME: Err…
BUSH: I could kill you right now, Brit. On camera. Right here. So what’s your next question?
HUME: Um… how did you get to be so awesome?
January 11th, 2009 at 3:22 pm49 Shanye
You are wrong! These are facts and he IS the President of the USA. His silence over Israel War Crimes warant criticism. His choice of cabinet aslo does warant criticism. His indication of “moving foward and not prossecuting Bush/Chenney & Co.’ also warant criticism. He is in NO WAY ABOVE CRITICISM!
January 11th, 2009 at 3:24 pmI supported Obama. But I’ll will not follow him as if he is some kind of Regilious sect.
He is promising a downing of troops in Iraq, not the End of the War! Another reason that warrant criticism! His FULL support for the occupation of Afegahnistan also does not indicate CHANGE, thus CRITICISM!
I despise the Bush/Cenney administration, but GATES does not indicate CHANGE for example. He picked GATES BEFORE his inaugaration. Sorry, I’ll not follow Obama blindly. Haven’t you learn with 2006 Democrat take over the Congress???!!! Haven’t you learned anything when Pelosi took a well deserved IMPEACHMENT OFF THE TABLE??????
Just remember my criticism a few months from now, when the selling of Obama’s BRAND runs off steam and people begin to see this adiministration without the vail.
Up against the wall Mutha fuka!
January 11th, 2009 at 3:26 pmOh never mind, the football game is on.
January 11th, 2009 at 3:28 pmI don’t care if it’s Obama or Aunt Mary, somebody needs to give that man a beat down.
January 11th, 2009 at 3:29 pmTake his shoe strings.
January 11th, 2009 at 3:30 pmAnd Obama is saying we need to look “forward” not “backward”, clearly signaling he will give this criminal cabal a “free pass”.
Yes, chimpy authorized torture and the dems refused to hold anyone accountable for it.
And now Obama is indicating he will let it all go too. So who should be really be bloggin about – the lying liars that are LEAVING office, or the gang that ran on “change” and are indicating there will be little or none.
January 11th, 2009 at 3:32 pmEnough talk.
January 11th, 2009 at 3:38 pmAppears that the Giants may be the losers. What say ye loser pretend crusher of hippies?
January 11th, 2009 at 3:40 pmor was that some other loser Wesley somtthing or other persona. Either way you blow…
January 11th, 2009 at 3:40 pmSelf-interest was the reason our country has not engaged in torture. That plus the fact that it simply does not work. The fallout from this will come down the road. Now that the country which previously led the world in the protection of individual human rights has abandoned its principles, we can now expect to see our captured troops AND CIVILIANS tortured in horrific ways. When you unlock the door, someone else is able to kick it wide open. Way to go, George. You never served, so why should you care, right?
January 11th, 2009 at 3:41 pm“In a wide ranging interview…The president-elect said he was not ruling out prosecution for possible crimes committed by Bush administration officials.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7822961.stm
January 11th, 2009 at 3:41 pmThis was really stupid of Bush. The threat of war crimes charges is very real. Maybe not this year, but eventually. Bush has pretty well admitted direct involvement in acts that are unambiguously torture under international law. His confederates have thrown together some crackerjack laws they believe will protect them. These very laws will trigger international jurisdiction.
We may have scandal fatigue now. The will to bring the war criminals to justice might not seem to exist. But Bush is going to live for a long time, and his reputation can only go down from here. Prosecuting Bush right now would involve serious emotional baggage for his f**k*d up supporters, and partisan resistance would be extreme. But ten years from now things will have cooled down a lot, no one will be invested in Bush anymore, and he will be widely hated. Suppose we happen to get a new generation of twenty-somethings who don’t like it when they learn their country has been out committing war crimes recently. Things could grow hot for Bush somewhere down the road, like they did for Pinochet.
January 11th, 2009 at 3:42 pmThe whinning is getting sort of tiresome…
January 11th, 2009 at 3:48 pmCan somebody PLEASE tell me why this man is not in jail?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!
January 11th, 2009 at 3:53 pmOh God, NOOOO!!! Not Neocon Dennis Ross! What the hell is Obama thinking? The Palestinian refugee camps will be saturated with blood.
I guess the Jews really do control America. Oh God, nooooo….
January 11th, 2009 at 3:59 pmWhy are all you fools whining about Obama when he is not even in office yet? My God, let the man take office and then allow his administration to have the authority to do the things you wish for. This is worse than a bunch of screaming memees! Get a grip and allow things to take their rightful course!
January 11th, 2009 at 4:03 pm… it’s like they are just DARING the obama admin to TRY to do something about it…
and if obama DOES say he will go after these criminals now, then the repercussions will stymie any other effort to fix the problems and clean up the messes…
and, they just keep throwing MORE shite around…
gads…
January 11th, 2009 at 4:15 pmRightful course, you may be onto something kasinca. With a Republican Transportation Dept. head, the Privatization Train can keep chugging. Distressed state and local governments can sell off long term revenue streams to private firms for a one time cash infusion.
Obama told George Stephanopoulos:
“The reason it’s so important for the United States to be engaged and involved immediately, not waiting until the end of their term, is because working through the politics of this requires a third party that everybody has confidence [in], wants to see a fair and just outcome,” he said.
Which of course requires the appointment of a neocon as his top Middle East & Iran adviser. All parties will see Dennis Ross as impartial, well at least Israel will call him that.
I was hoping for a more leftful course. But ThinkCentrism and its enforcers feel different.
January 11th, 2009 at 4:52 pm.
So,
I CAN become the President of the USA and get my co-conspirator cronies to make a cover of legal “OPINIONS” as to how violating the Constitution of the USA and International Treaties is lawful?
Oh, it’s not illegal when the president does it?
R E M E M B E R:
Legal “OPINIONS” are not the law, just opinions, no matter how wrong.
.
January 11th, 2009 at 5:03 pmkasinca,
I’ll give a reason why.
When the President Elect was a Junior Senator, he said that the Government should be allowed to spy on it’s people…
Me’s curious what else he thinks should be VIOLATED?
.
January 11th, 2009 at 5:07 pm.
Q U E S T I O N:
If I get my cronies to draw up legal “OPINIONS” as to committing a murder so that I can order a hit, is the murder then legal?
SINCE WHEN ARE OPINIONS, THE LAW?
If I can get my cronies to circumvent the law through their legal “OPINIONS”, is it then lawful?
WHY THEN, DO WE NEED LAWS AT ALL?
.
January 11th, 2009 at 5:12 pmAll histrionics, jingoisms and hand-flapping aside, only the Supreme Court can assign guilt or culpability to Bush & Co. Let the DoJ make a case if they can, secure an indictment and then let the games begin.
January 11th, 2009 at 5:19 pmObama may be our best chance to dispense some Justice to these thugs. It has already been a long wait. A little while longer is no more tolerable than the last 8 years have been. If nothing ever comes of this, what will we do for a country or a political party?
January 11th, 2009 at 6:04 pmkasinca – you didn’t watch obama today?
Folks here are expressing concern about the war crimes and crimes against the world.
Obama has essentially said he will do nothing – we will see what “forward” and not “backwards” means.
This is something we should talk about – folks like you are why they can get away with this.
The notion that progressives cannot hold BOTH parties accountable and talk about progressive ideas is offensive – unfortunately, it is common at some “progressive” blogs.
January 11th, 2009 at 6:37 pmOh Snap! George W. Bush is a torturer after all.
January 11th, 2009 at 6:57 pmI wonder what else he is…
If he’s going to acknowledge that torture has occurred, he has a choice of admitting that he approved of it, or admitting that he didn’t know what was going on. I don’t understand why he keeps talking, but I suspect that he’s very proud of all the terrible things he’s done.
January 11th, 2009 at 7:09 pmIt is not too late to impeach him.
January 11th, 2009 at 7:33 pmHe is a war criminal; we don’t need to impeach him, just put in jail!
January 11th, 2009 at 7:40 pmWhen the world court indicts Bush, hopefully we will give him up for trial. He can take Milosovich’s place
January 11th, 2009 at 8:00 pmI think the only problem with pursuing President Bush for war crimes, especially the “torture” of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is that Nancy Pelosi would have to be pursued as an accessory before the fact, along with the other members of the Senate and House Intelligence committees none of whom condemned them as either torture or illegal when first presented to them in 2002.
January 11th, 2009 at 8:30 pmI tell you people what. Those people come here and kill us without batting an eye and all you want them to just ask them questions and let them go or what. They will go as soon as they get out and kill one of us again. There is nothing fair about war. You use whatever you can to get the information you can. So why don’t the one’s who don’t agree with that go live over there with those terrorists. I hope that nothing happens to Bush or any other President because this isn’t the first time torture has been used. Its the first time a President has had the BALLS to say something about it. I hope the ones who is taking up for the sorry good for nothing doesn’t give a sh*t terrorists has someone in their life taken away from them by one of those SOB’S. Them maybe you will change your tune.
January 11th, 2009 at 8:35 pmHythloday Says:
Not unless she was FREE to show her displeasure publicly that is if it WASNT CLASSIFIED INFORMATION. If she agreed then I dont see it as a problem but what should happen. ANYONE who was involved or in any way facilitated torture should be prosecuted to the extent of the law.
January 11th, 2009 at 8:46 pmjw_hendry Says:
I think Fascist PUNKS like you ought to go live in another country. I suggest Guatemala where your black fascist heart would fit right in. IF we had him he wasnt going to kill anyone and there is no reason to let him go he should be prosecuted torture however is evil and antithetical to American values. The fact YOU have no decency is no reason for all of America to become a COUNTRY without decency. Terrorists are evil we already know that. Trying to outdo them in evil is a losers game. WE need to be a decent people and be defined by what WE DO. We cannot torture people and continue to demand we be seen as a decent people its against international law and common human decency. Do you even remember what it was like before your soul dried up and blew away?
January 11th, 2009 at 8:51 pmRight, but she could have objected, confidentially, by letter for example and kept a copy of the letter. And now that it is not confidential, has she objected she could prove that she objected to it, thus exculpating her. Otherwise, its no different than being a driver for thieves.
I fully agree with your last sentence.
January 11th, 2009 at 8:53 pmjw_hendry Says:
“I tell you people what. Those people come here and kill us without batting an eye, etc………….”
And you never think to ask the question “WHY?”….
January 11th, 2009 at 8:57 pmjw_hendry Says: “Its the first time a President has had the BALLS to say something about it.”
Because those are what George thinks with.
January 11th, 2009 at 8:59 pmThis whole article is bullshit. “I personally authorized torture of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.” Where does Bush say that? I didn’t hear him say anything close to that.
>>He said he personally asked “what tools” were available to use on him, and sought legal approval for waterboarding him<<
I didn’t hear Bush say that either. He asked what tools were available and were they legal. He didn’t get anymore specific than that. Don’t get me wrong. I utterly hate George Bush and I think he’s a war criminal beyond all doubt. But there’s nothing in this story that he can be hanged with. Even they prove that KSM was waterboarded, Bush only has to say that that was not one of the tools listed at his disposal, that someone else did that on their own. You’ll never prove the order came from him.
So, no, I don’t think Obama can or will do anything with this (I don’t think it’s his job to in any case since he represents the executive branch I think the judicial branch has to make the call and I believe Bush stocked that branch with his own cronies–and you American people reelected him so blame yourselves). No one will. I see nothing that resembles a confession of authorizing torture other than an extremely misleading and frankly FALSE headline to this article.
Go back to sleep, masses, false alarm. It’s a little late to start getting self-righteous about who Obama’s administration backed Bush on this or that–you reelected him. Always remember that because I won’t let you forget. You are to blame. You.
January 11th, 2009 at 9:48 pm“So I ask what tools are available for us to find information from him and they gave me a list of tools, and I said are these tools deemed to be legal? And so we got legal opinions before any decision was made.” (statement by Bush the Torturer).
Notice the jump between Bush saying “are these tools deemed to be legal?” and his saying that they got “legal opinions before any decision was made”…he leaves out what the initial response was to his question “are these tools deemed to be legal?”
In other words, if the response had been YES to his question about whether these proposed torture tools were deemed to be legal, then Bush and his fellow torture-advocating Republicans wouldn’t have had to seek out additional “legal opinions.”
Thus, the initial response to Bush’s question about the legality of the proposed torture tools must have been NO, with certain Republican advisers telling him that these “tools” would be violations of the Geneva Conventions and other laws prohibiting torture of detainees.
But Bush and the neo-con Republicans (Addington, Yoo, Gonzales, etc.) didn’t like this initial negative assessment, so they decided to create “legal opinions” to bypass the Geneva Conventions and other torture prohibiting laws so that torture could be ordered and used against detainees.
Bush, through words out of his own mouth, has just damned himself and all the neo-con Republicans, acknowledging that they had to resort to extra-legal, manufactured “legal opinions” to support and justify their extra-legal torture policies.
Because, once again, if these proposed interrogation “tools” had been deemed legal at the beginning then the answer would have been YES, and no further “legal opinions” would have been necessary. But the initial answer was NO, so neo-cons in BushCoLand had to dig for someway to change the NO into a YES in an attempt to give “legal” cover to their highly illegal and immoral torture and rendition policies.
January 11th, 2009 at 9:56 pmwaterboarding???? alot better than the cut “off” the head type of shit,,,give me a break,,,anyone who wants to or tries to hurt me or my family,,,or even yours, will be questioned in the same way that they would do to me,,,we want the info, and if it saves a 3 yr from Texas or whereever it serves a purpose,,,,this is a war, and yes it sucks,,,even Kerry(who I voted for) would do the same,,,and also,,the “half-breed” would do the same in 2009,,he is only an aa when it suits him,,ask his “white grand-ma,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
January 11th, 2009 at 9:58 pmThis isn’t a Republican/Democrat issue, this is a national security issue. If “torturing” this piece of $hit led to information that prevented a broken fingernail of only one American, then it was worth it. We (the general public) have no clue what goes on behind closed doors. We elect presidents to make decisions to protect our country, and then we critize the way they do it. What did you want us to do with the terrorists we captured – ask them nicely for information? Maybe a “pretty please” would have worked.
January 11th, 2009 at 9:59 pmTorture does not provide good intelligence and it is not allowable in a court of law.
January 11th, 2009 at 10:11 pmThe use of torture undermines our moral authority.
January 11th, 2009 at 10:12 pmThe use of torture drags the USA down to the level of countries ruled by despots.
January 11th, 2009 at 10:13 pmOur use of torture sets a dangerous precedent and opens the door to our own people being tortured.
January 11th, 2009 at 10:14 pmAnybody so desperate as to resort to the use of torture is weak, Unamerican and cowardly.
January 11th, 2009 at 10:15 pmI’m pretty sure it does provide good intelligence, but none of us have any way of knowing that for sure. Ask yourself – would it work on you? I’m not advocating torture, my definition of it is just pretty leniant. These “people” absolutely hate our guts and want to see every one of us dead. What do you do with that? “By any means necessary” – any better suggestions?
January 11th, 2009 at 10:19 pmysoserious Says: “These “people” absolutely hate our guts and want to see every one of us dead.”
Have you ever asked “Why?”
January 11th, 2009 at 10:21 pmNo, I’ve never asked “why”, but I’m sure in their mind, they have a good reason and are justified in their beliefs, so that makes it all okay, Gee, I guess if the whole world thought that way, we’d all spend our days and nights plotting to kill each other. What a wonderful world that would be. Lucky for them that we don’t believe like they believe. If we did, they wouldn’t exist.
January 11th, 2009 at 10:32 pmI say again – I do not advocate torture. But there is no one definitvie definition of torture. And I don’t hear anyone with any better suggestions. Again – what would you like us to do with the terrorists we capture???
January 11th, 2009 at 10:36 pmYou need to ask why, not just blow it off with your own rationalizations and justifications.
January 11th, 2009 at 10:36 pmSo JB – you think that if we play by the rules, everyone else will too, right? I’ve got news for you – any Americans that have been captured ARE being tortured, and it has nothing to do with what we do. These “people” don’t play by any “rules” – I can’t believe people don’t understand that by now.
January 11th, 2009 at 10:41 pmTorture does not provide “intelligence”.
January 11th, 2009 at 10:41 pmIt may provide information.
The information obtained through torture and duress is inherently suspect, and always needs corroboration.
Far more, and more reliable, information is obtained through rapport and compassion.
A follow-up to my previous post:
There could only have been three responses to Bush’s question “are these tools deemed to be legal?”
1) Yes, all the interrogation procedures on this “list of tools” are legal. (Thus, no need to search for additional “legal opinions.” Right?).
2) Yes, some procedures on this “list of tools” are legal, while others are not legal. (Pretty definitive, but neo-con Republican legal eagles apparently then sought further “legal opinions” to change the procedures judged to be illegal into legal ones, at least in their minds, so everyone under Bush, as CIC, could then be instructed to implement these illeg…er, legal procedures against detainees. People ordered by Bush, the CIC, could have refused to commit torture, resigned their military commission, just said no. Oh wait, that’s where the rendition program came in, because there’s always some conservative somewhere in the world willing to torture, located in some conservative dictatorship, especially if the neo-con Republicans found some U.S. citizens and military personnel unwilling to violate the Geneva Conventions and other laws prohibiting the torture of detainees).
3) No, all the interrogation procedures on the “list of tools” presented to Bush are illegal. (Thus, the neo-con need for additional “legal opinions.”)
Bush’s statement is the clearest evidence to date that he and certain neo-con Republicans knew that certain proposed interrogation procedures (if not all on the “list of tools”) were clear violations of the law, but they ordered these done anyway.
Why?
Because just like any other spoiled brats or career criminals, Bush and his loose-cannon neo-con pals don’t like to be told NO, you can’t do that. So, due to the initial negative response to Bush’s question “are these tools deemed to be legal?”…neo-con members of BushCo threw a torture tantrum…yelling at the top of their lungs behind closed doors “We’ve got to torture, we’ve got to torture, to save America from another attack, and to assure Bush’s re-election in 2004, because if another terrorist attack does occur on U.S. soil (one that we can’t try to blame on Clinton), then Bush’s chances of winning a second term are toast, which would make him no different than his one-term dad. We’ve got to torture, we’ve got to torture.” And the rest, as they say, is history…but with none of the Bush neo-con officials being prosecuted and punished for their torture tantrum.
January 11th, 2009 at 10:44 pmysoserious, we elect presidents to “protect and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.” The president does not assume the role of Commander-in-Chief unless Congress declares war. Treaties such as the Geneva Conventions become part of U.S. law, according to the Constitution. Therefore, the President should protect and defend AGAINST the use of torture. This is a country of laws, or at least it used to be.
January 11th, 2009 at 10:46 pmYou seem overly concerned that we are concerned about torture. torturously so.
You can’t argue for torture. You will lose.
January 11th, 2009 at 10:46 pmNevar – you’re playing symantics – as it pertains to this issue, please tell me the difference between intelligence and information. Information that needs corroboration is better than no information at all. So we should have sat down over a cup of tea with Khalid Sheikh Mohammed???
January 11th, 2009 at 10:47 pmWith that logic you can rationalize anything…..
January 11th, 2009 at 10:48 pmysoserious Says:
This isn’t a Republican/Democrat issue, this is a national security issue. If “torturing” this piece of $hit led to information that prevented a broken fingernail of only one American, then it was worth it. We (the general public) have no clue what goes on behind closed doors. We elect presidents to make decisions to protect our country, and then we critize the way they do it. What did you want us to do with the terrorists we captured – ask them nicely for information? Maybe a “pretty please” would have worked.
I’m going to assume, for the moment, that you are new to hearing about this issue.
This isn’t a Republican/Democrat issue, this is a national security issue.
No, it’s an International Law issue, and a War Crimes issue. Please don’t lose sight of that fact.
If “torturing” this piece of $hit led to information that prevented a broken fingernail of only one American, then it was worth it.
Well, I won’t speak for you, but I can handle a broken fingernail. I don’t need to have someone tortured to prevent it.
We (the general public) have no clue what goes on behind closed doors.
Yes, but we also have laws that require them to tell us about some of that, especially where national security is not a concern. But the Bushies refuse to obey the law and do that.
We elect presidents to make decisions to protect our country, and then we critize the way they do it.
Actually, we elect presidents to preserve, protect, and defend tha Constitution of the United States. That’s why those words are in their oath of office. Their oath says nothing about protecting the American people. And we criticize them when they are doing it wrong because we can (First Amendment) and we should.
What did you want us to do with the terrorists we captured – ask them nicely for information? Maybe a “pretty please” would have worked.
Yes, it did work. Have you not heard about the former CIA interrogator, who published a book under the pseudonym Matthew Alexander? In it, he said that asking the terrosists nicely produced much better intelligence than waterboarding them (which is considered torture under international law; and we weren’t debating torture in general, but waterboarding in particular).
Like it or not, our Still President has just admitted that he committed a War Crime. He will have to spend the rest of his life being very careful where he travels. He could be arrested as soon as he steps off the plane in some countries. When that happens, I hope President Obama is doing something more important, like brushing up on his bowling game.
January 11th, 2009 at 10:50 pmFred – I’m not!!! (arguing for torture)
Ms. Schneider – tomorrow is NOT September 11, 2001, since you seem to be stuck in a September 10, 2001 frame of mind.
January 11th, 2009 at 10:53 pmysoserious Says:
I dont know what you mean by those people. It could be interpreted as bigotry. If by THOSE people you mean those like Khalid then yeah they do. The thing is the way WE act isnt about who THEY are its about who WE are and we shouldnt be TORTURERS. You also leave out a completely different victim. The TORTURER. He might follow orders or be convinced he is doing right but if he is a decent human being unlike those who advocate torture then he will suffer from the diminishment of his humanity. He will in the long run suffer great emotional pain. Those are AMERICAN victims.
January 11th, 2009 at 10:55 pmysoserious Says:
Or if WE thought that way we might invade countries based on lies and a desire to get in on their oil contracts.
January 11th, 2009 at 10:55 pmJust the fact that you insinuate that we don’t understand this is enough to disqualify you from the discussion.
Your rationalization seems to be the six year olds age old “she hit me first” defense.
So if you’re not advocating for torture what the hell is the point of your posts?
January 11th, 2009 at 10:59 pmysoserious Says:
Treat them in a civilized manner and try them for their crimes. The ONLY DECENT THING A DECENT PEOPLE WOULD DO. That is the thing about values. You have them or you dont. If you toss them away when they become inconvienient or becuase they dont make you FEEL safe enough you didnt have them. IF you dont have them when there is a cost you dont have them. YOU would make us a country with no values its sick. You are soulsick. There isnt any question that waterboarding is torture. It was considered torture when it was used during the Spanish Inquisitions it was considered torture when WE put Japanese soldiers in PRISON and charged them with war crimes when they did it to OUR soldiers. We treat them as WE would want to be treated if WE were in their position not because THEY deserve it but because WE are the good guys and the only way to REMAIN the good guys is to DO THE RIGHT THING even when it comes at a cost.
January 11th, 2009 at 11:00 pmMr. Schneider – I would hope that you would take my exagerations as attempts to make a point (fingernail). With all due respect – do you have any of your own thoughts on these matters, because your respone seems awfully “scripted”. What does “international law” say about flying planes into the buildings of other countries???
January 11th, 2009 at 11:01 pmysoserious Says:
Nevar – you’re playing symantics – as it pertains to this issue, please tell me the difference between intelligence and information. Information that needs corroboration is better than no information at all. So we should have sat down over a cup of tea with Khalid Sheikh Mohammed???
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
An ignorant strawman argument and also a false dichotomy. Are those the ONLY two options? A twofer logical fallacy.
January 11th, 2009 at 11:01 pmYou know, ysoserious, I could have predicted that you would bring up 9/11. Do you hide in your closet all of the time in fear of terrorists? I’m from southern NY, about an hour north of NYC, and I don’t.
January 11th, 2009 at 11:01 pmWell said Eugene, and it sums it up for the whole subject of torture….
I’m afraid the whole concept flys over the head of the likes of our friend ysoserious
January 11th, 2009 at 11:03 pmysoserious Says:
You are acting the idiot. International law considers it terrorism as you well know but THEIR crimes dont make OUR crimes disappear by your spurious logic we shouldnt punish murders if they werent as bad as Jeffery Daumer.
January 11th, 2009 at 11:04 pmysoserious,
Please do not insult our intelligence with that ridiculous “stuck in a September 10, 2001 frame of mind” argument. It is truly, truly ignorant. To use that one is to prove that it is you who are unaware of what’s going on.
January 11th, 2009 at 11:04 pmWayne A. Schneider Says:
Exactly it is the stupid argument of morons stuck in the pre 1776 mentality
January 11th, 2009 at 11:06 pmWithout wishing to be presumptuous — Wayne A. Schneider is abundantly capable of defending himself:
ysoserious, we are NOT living in an episode of “24″, since you seem to be stuck in a Jack Bauer frame of mind.
January 11th, 2009 at 11:07 pmysoserious Says:
Mr. Schneider – I would hope that you would take my exagerations as attempts to make a point (fingernail). With all due respect – do you have any of your own thoughts on these matters, because your respone seems awfully “scripted”. What does “international law” say about flying planes into the buildings of other countries???
Okay, so you agree that we shouldn’t torture a suspect to prevent someone from getting a broken fingernail. What would they have to be doing to make it okay to torture them in your mind? And what you mistake for a “scripted” response is actually a well-thought out statement I find myself having to make against people like you. The words are entirely my own. And not every crime is a violation of International Law. Flying planes into buildings is a violation of Federal Law and many State Laws, including those of NY. Torture, on the other hand, and waterboarding in particular, ARE violations of International Law. What makes you think this is not so?
January 11th, 2009 at 11:10 pmI believe “international law” would support our contention that flying airplanes into buildings is an act of terrorism.
Your point?
Do you propose a “two wrongs make a right” statute as part of international law?
January 11th, 2009 at 11:11 pmDo you propose a “two wrongs make a right” statute as part of international law?
If they did that, ralph, there would never be peace in the Middle East.
January 11th, 2009 at 11:16 pmOkay, I’m getting beaten up pretty good here, and it’s getting late. My apologies to the Schneiders, as I truly did not mean to offend.
I can’t find another way to say it, but I’ll say it one more time – I am not advocating torture. Most of you are making it sound like I am.
“EugeneDebs” – thanks for the reply but I didn’t comprehend a damn word you said, and I’m not too embarrassed to admit it.
No Ms. Schneider, I do not hide in my closet, not at all.
I love this country, I support our troops, our president, and our president-elect. I support aggressive measures to combat anyone who wishes to harm us. I am not a bigot.
If that makes me wrong, then I’m okay with that.
January 11th, 2009 at 11:17 pmRalph, ysoserious doesn’t understand that good leaders will not take the path of childishness. bush always did and look where it has taken us.
January 11th, 2009 at 11:19 pmYso, How about aggressive LEGAL measures, then I’d be OK with your program.
January 11th, 2009 at 11:25 pmSome of you are pretty quick to cite “international law”. That’s all well and good, but we’re not really talking about a traditional war against other “nations”. We’re talking about lawless terrorists, so can we please stop referring to laws. The reason “people like me” always refer back to 9/11 is because the rule book was thrown out on that day, the world, and the way we need to look at the world changed forever on that day.
January 11th, 2009 at 11:26 pmHow about just measures THAT WORK?
Not only is torture illegal, but it doesn’t work to gather good intelligence and it’s counter-productive in the larger conflict.
January 11th, 2009 at 11:27 pmysoserious, at least you can admit it when you’re getting beaten up, and the apology is nice. But I feel that you are wrong, and I’m sorry that you’re okay with that. Goodnight.
Goodnight, ralph, eugene, and Fred! :D
January 11th, 2009 at 11:27 pmysoserious,
Well, if, for one, never accused you of being a bigot. I just do not believe that you understand the issue. Please, read the Constitution again if you haven’t done so lately. There are limits to presidential authority. And no matter what the cause is, it is never okay for the president to exceed those limits.
Waterboarding is torture.
Torturing people captured in battle in a War Crime.
War Crimes are against International law and the Geneva Conventions.
Bush has admitted that he authorized the waterboarding of KSM.
Bush has admitted that he has committed a War Crime.
Bush has violated International Law and the Geneva Conventions.
We are a nation of Laws, so we want to see the Law enforced.
You can’t do whatever you want to someone just to get information out of him. And, as the article above points out, torture does not provide reliable information. So there is no justifiable reason to do it.
Got it?
January 11th, 2009 at 11:27 pmIn getting you and people like you to throw out the rule book, the terrorists really DID win. You gave them that victory. Congrats.
January 11th, 2009 at 11:27 pm“The rule book was not thrown out”, ysoserious? Who told you it was? Oh, yeah, the right wing in this country. The people who do not believe in following the law in the first place were the ones who told you “everything changed on September 11th.”
Do not believe them. The rest of the world did not tell us, “It’s okay if you violate treaties and International Law to get back at these people.” Not one of them did that.
Do you really want us to become just like the enemy we supposedly are fighting?
January 11th, 2009 at 11:33 pmsorry, s/b “the rule book was thrown out”? But you get my point.
January 11th, 2009 at 11:33 pmInsanity = doing the same thing over and over, the same way, and expecting different results.
Goodnight, and may God Bless America!
January 11th, 2009 at 11:33 pmysoserious,
Then, the Bush Administration’s policies are, by your definition, insane. They are not working to keep us any safer.
January 11th, 2009 at 11:34 pmYossarian:
We’re talking about lawless terrorists, so can we please stop referring to laws. The reason “people like me” always refer back to 9/11 is because the rule book was thrown out on that day, the world, and the way we need to look at the world changed forever on that day.
It’s a Catch-22 world. In order to defeat terrorism, we must abandon the rule of law, and engage in the very behavior we condemn.
January 11th, 2009 at 11:35 pmEverybody obeys the law and those that don’t are punished. Simple.
January 11th, 2009 at 11:36 pmBTW, I don’t buy the Jack Bauer “24″ defense.
Not three, not thirty, but hundreds, if not thousands, of detainees both in U.S. custody somewhere (GITMO, Abu Ghraib, Bagram AB, military ships, Diego Garcia), or renditioned (Eastern European countries, Syria, Egypt), have been tortured, using techniques from this interrogation “list of tools” presented to Bush.
The Jack Bauer “24″ defense, which Bush neo-con officials and certain trolls are using, is that all options are on the interrogation table, including torture, where an imminent terrorist attack is concerned.
Thus, neo-con Bush officials keep repeating that only a handful of detainees, high-value targets, have been subjected to torture…er, harsh…er, enhanced interrogation techniques, just like Jack Bauer on “24″ and his “interrogation” of the terrorist of the week. Limited. Specific. Always productive. Some people even believe this neo-con crap.
Anti-American and highly illegal torture policies and practices have been widespread under the Bush administration. Abu Ghraib. Bargram AB in Afghanistan. GITMO. Military ships. Diego Garcia. Detainees secretly renditioned to third-world dictatorships that practice torture.
People have even died while being subjected to BushCo’s “enhanced interrogation techniques,” people no longer able to provide “information” to avert whatever the “enhanced interrogation techniques” were intended to avert…so BushCo-sanctioned “interrogators” moved on to other detainees who might have “information”…who might then die, too, after being subjected to “enhanced interrogation techniques”…leading to BushCo-sanctioned “interrogators” moving on to other detainees…ad nauseum, ad infinitum.
Which is what the Jack Bauer “24″ defense is meant to address…and why I don’t buy this defense of BushCo torture policies and practices.
Even if “limited” to just a select few “high-value” detainees, what BushCo did would still be illegal, but when one realizes that BushCo’s torture policies and practices were far from “limited,” but entailed a widespread, worldwide-spanning program, then “illegal” doesn’t seem adequate in describing what BushCo did…War Crimes somehow seems more appropriate.
January 11th, 2009 at 11:37 pmAnd that’s all going to change in 9 days, right? And I’m sorry, how many times have we been attacked since 9/11? Or maybe a better question, how many attacks have been avoided due to critical “information” gathered over late-night tea-sipping outings?? I guarantee you, many many more than you or I would care to know!
January 11th, 2009 at 11:40 pmysoserious Says:
Some of you are pretty quick to cite “international law”. That’s all well and good, but we’re not really talking about a traditional war against other “nations”. We’re talking about lawless terrorists, so can we please stop referring to laws. The reason “people like me” always refer back to 9/11 is because the rule book was thrown out on that day, the world, and the way we need to look at the world changed forever on that day.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
No the law and the rules of common decency were NOT thrown out on that day. What is RIGHT and what is WRONG did NOT change on that day if it HAD the terrorists would have beaten us.
January 11th, 2009 at 11:42 pmIf that makes me wrong, then I’m okay with that.
Wrong, as in unAmerican. You’re ok with american soldiers being waterboarded? That’s what this “might makes right” strategy entails.
I fail to see how this qualifies as “supporting the troops.”
January 11th, 2009 at 11:42 pmysoserious Says:
I love this country, I support our troops,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As do we all. I hope you didnt think that made any point. It was an inane and meaningless emotional statement about like I love my mother and I support the people of Iowa. Who doesnt?
our president, and our president-elect. I support aggressive measures to combat anyone who wishes to harm us. I am not a bigot.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Presidents only DESERVE the support they EARN. As Teddy Roosevelt once said to say there must be no criticism of a president that we must support him right or wrong is not only unpatriotic and servile but morally treasonable to the American public. Or as Mark Twain put it we should support our country AlWAYS and our government when it deserves it.
If that makes me wrong, then I’m okay with that.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
How utterly inane you dont CARE if you are wrong as long as you regurgitate the right programming? That is pathetic
January 11th, 2009 at 11:47 pmAnd I’m sorry, how many times have we been attacked since 9/11?
Al Qaida, has a long operational-planning schedule. Its not realistic to conclude that since we haven’t been attacked since 9/11 (although we have, with the unsolved anthrax attacks), that it won’t happen sometime during Obama’s first term. Just as with Bush’s legacy, “it’s too early to tell.”
January 11th, 2009 at 11:49 pmI really hate to say this, but I’m not so sure the terrorists DIDN’T win. Why did they attack the WTC? Obviously for large casulties, but they were also attacking the heart of our economy, right? And now we’re in the worst economic situation since the Great Depression. Coincidence? Maybe.
One more thing on torture – ya’ll act like this is something new. Torture has been around forever – we’ve been doing it to others, and they’ve been doing it to us (anyone hear of Vietnam?). Again – not advocating it, but let’s not act like this was just invented. Does that make all of our previous leaders criminals as well??
January 11th, 2009 at 11:50 pmAnd as Jon Swift points out, not a single American city has been drowned since Katrina.
You assume that torture — sorry, “enhanced interrogation” — has been responsible for avoiding attacks. You have no evidence of this. There is mountainous evidence that torture does not work to get reliable information, and that, as you call them so derisively, “tea-sipping outings” are far more effective.
I suspect that people on the right don’t like that idea because the problem they seek to solve in this case is not primarily getting the best information; it’s punishing those who they imagine hurt us, and “getting information” is just a convenient excuse for that punishment.
It’s the only explanation that makes sense. Well, aside from one of a clinical diagnosis of some personality disorder.
January 11th, 2009 at 11:50 pmysoserious, your repeated claims that you’re “not advocating” torture sound really insincere. You’ve essentially done nothing but advocate for it on this thread. Just because you say that you’re “not advocating” for it doesn’t really make it so, if every other phrase you type defends its use as either justified or effective.
January 11th, 2009 at 11:53 pmDoes that make all of our previous leaders criminals as well??
Ones that went against Geneva conventions’ laws, of course. That includes LBJ, and Nixon.
January 11th, 2009 at 11:56 pmEugenDebs – so, if I read you right, you support our troops but you’re on the fence when it comes to the Commander of those troops?? Interesting. If you don’t support the leader of this country, that is to say you don’t wish and pray for his success, then I have to question your patriotism. I’m not saying you can’t disagree, but you must support. Maybe support is too vague a word…
January 11th, 2009 at 11:57 pmObviously for large casulties, but they were also attacking the heart of our economy, right? And now we’re in the worst economic situation since the Great Depression. Coincidence? Maybe.
They both happned under the same president. Coincidence? Please.
January 11th, 2009 at 11:58 pmI’m not saying you can’t disagree, but you must support.
Abrogating Geneva?
Wiretapping Americans?
January 12th, 2009 at 12:01 ambarfly – I stopped reading your posts when you called me “unamerican”. You don’t know me at all, so please don’t go there. I didn’t say I was “ok” with our troops being waterboarded (many will say that I indirectly implied this) – what I am saying is that I don’t have my head so far buried in the sand that I understand that it happens nad I understand that it’s part of reality and the world we live in. And pretending that “if we don’t do it, they won’t do it”, just doesn’t work for me.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:02 amWe should have shot ksm, the bastard deserved it, and saved the taxpayers a lot of money.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:05 ambarfly – I stopped reading your posts when you called me “unamerican”.
Well, it doesn’t feel so good eh?
We’ve gotten that treatment for 8 years, and Im just havibg fun poking hokles in your logical conclusions. I’d actually prefer if you didn’t address me, directly, so thanks in advance.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:05 amI disagree with you. If large amounts of casualties were what the terrorists wanted, they could have done it much more efficiently and much, much more effectively. It was summer time, and baseball was still being played. Every Major League Ballpark is close to an airport. (Shea Stadium and its replacement are right next to LaGuardia.) Instead of learning to fly large planes and then trying to hijack them, they could have loaded up small planes with explosives and flown them as many as a dozen ball parks, depending ont he time of day. They could easily have killed more than 100,000 people IF that was their objective.
It wasn’t. Their objective was to instill fear in our people. So much fear that we would abandon our principles, and throw away our freedoms in exchange for a little false sense of security. And thanks to people like you, we’ve done that. As someone said earlier, congratulations. You’ve just helped the terrorists win. As long as you maintain the attitude you have, they don’t have to kill another person.
Well, I, on the other hand, will not be defeated by them. I refuse to live in fear of a terrorist attack that isn’t going to come. I will live free.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:06 amDo you think it’s impossible to support the troops but not support the president?
I notice that you re-framed EugeneDebs’s statement in terms more comfortable for you to criticize (that is to say you don’t wish and pray for his success). I think most everyone here would wish and pray for the success of our president. But at this point, we’re all pretty well convinced that it ain’t gonna happen, that Bush just doesn’t have “Success” in him.
Regardless, are you suggesting that, in order to credibly claim that we support the troops, we have to agree with the policies and decisions of the president? I think it’s important to get this cleared up right now, while we still have a president that YOU support.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:06 amOops. Sticky keys, from spilling my soda, laughing so hard.
Sorry for the typos.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:07 amI am saying is that I don’t have my head so far buried in the sand that I understand that it happens nad I understand that it’s part of reality and the world we live in.
A polite way of saying I’m an ostrich.
Yet credible experts dispute the claim that torture produces anything of value.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:10 amIt’s more a case of “if they know we do it, then they DEFINITELY will do it.” Bush has already as much as admitted that we do it. Thus, our troops who are captured can count on being tortured.
Again, I say, the true priority of the Right in this debate is not support of the troops or effective waging of war, or gathering good intelligence. All of those goals are set back by torture.
No, the Right wants desperately to PUNISH. It seems to be an emotional need that they disguise with grand-sounding platitudes.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:10 amGood. You’re wrong.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:13 amForget Bush – he’s out in 9 days. I stated that anyone has the right to disagree with president – that’s what makes this country great. EugeneDebs said “Presidents only DESERVE the support they EARN” which is totally subjectional. Yeah, if you don’t support the president, the leader of this country and our troops, than your patriotism is suspect in my opinion. I did not vote for Mr. Obama (I know, big shocker), but I honestly do wish him all the success in the world.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:13 amralph the wonder llama Says:
No, the Right wants desperately to PUNISH. It seems to be an emotional need that they disguise with grand-sounding platitudes.
Such acts are only forgivable when OUR side does it. That is his tacit message.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:14 amYeah, if you don’t support the president, the leader of this country and our troops, than your patriotism is suspect in my opinion.
My country, right or wrong. Welcome to the Seventies.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:16 amysoserious Says:
EugeneDebs said “Presidents only DESERVE the support they EARN” which is totally subjectional.
________
Subjectional? Hmmm…
***tap… tap…***
Uh? “Subjectional”???
January 12th, 2009 at 12:18 amYeah, if you don’t support the president, the leader of this country and our troops, than your patriotism is suspect in my opinion.
Yet he won’t condemn torure, knowing full well other countries will torure American soldiers, because they feel a need to reciprocate for our use of torture on prisoners.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:20 amWe must hold ourselves to at least as high of standards as we hold the rest of the world.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:20 amThese conservatives really want a race to the bottom.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:20 am“Subjectional?”
Jesus. I weep for our educational system.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:22 amRejectional!
January 12th, 2009 at 12:23 ambarfly Says:
Yeah, if you don’t support the president, the leader of this country and our troops, than your patriotism is suspect in my opinion.
My country, right or wrong. Welcome to the Seventies.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:16 am
And ysoserious accused me of being stuck in a pre-9/11 frame of mind? Ha!
Goodnight again.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:24 amThey could have done much worse than that far more cheaply: Get some anthrax samples (they can collect them or actually have them sent from labs just by sending them a falsified letter), some chemistry equipment (which is sold on the internet), some anthrax vaccines (in case they contaminate themselves), and make a slurry. This can be done in a room of a house or in an apartment. Then you fill a squirt gun or super-soaker with the slurry and drive around roads and truckstops that carry livestock and poultry to market and just wet down the animals and leave–just a few squirts will do. No symptoms will show for about a week or so by which time these animals will have mingled with and infected thousands of others in the big sale barns where various food companies buy them. By the time anyone realizes what’s going on, the infected meat would be on store shelves and in people’s homes and in people’s stomachs across the nation and there would be no way to know just how many animals are contaminated. This is so easy to do that you have to wonder why no one has yet done it. There is no way Bush or anyone could protect us from something like that. So I agree, it really wasn’t the aim of the terrorists to do anything more than help us destroy our democracy–and they’ve done a good job of that.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:24 amZooey Says:
“Subjectional?”
__________
***pssst…***
(Home schooled…)
***wink…***
January 12th, 2009 at 12:25 amUh oh – did I pull a Bushism – Subjectional – c’mon, cut me a break, it’s after midnight… You know what I meant…
January 12th, 2009 at 12:26 amTRoS,
Must have been the Juvenile Home.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:27 amIt’s not after midnight here, ysoserious.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:27 amYou guys would like nothing better than for America to forget Bush and what he represents as the face of conservatism. Not gonna happen.
I felt the same way about Bush in 2001. Unfortunately, his policies, rhetoric and means of governance soon eroded that good will. Invading iraq was the clincher for me, and he did nothing afterwards to convince me that i’d made an error in judgment.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:29 amZooey Says:
TRoS,
Must have been the Juvenile Home.
___________
Does that mean he knows how to make a shiv out of a tooth brush?
Cool…
January 12th, 2009 at 12:29 amWell Jakie is about to pull the plug on the generator feeding power to the barn out here. If he catches me on this laptop, I’ll be “shunned”…
January 12th, 2009 at 12:29 amMaybe not for you, Zooey! Okay, okay, I’ll go to bed :D
January 12th, 2009 at 12:30 amNailed it for me, Ralph. Dubya has earned every ounce of scorn.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:30 amG’night, Jane. ;)
January 12th, 2009 at 12:30 amThe Republic of Stupidity Says:
Does that mean he knows how to make a shiv out of a tooth brush?
Cool…
January 12th, 2009 at 12:29 am
Yeah, but he always sticks it in his own eye.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:30 amI leave a battered man but will return to fight another day. Goodnight.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:34 amBetter trolls, TP!!!
This one is broken!
January 12th, 2009 at 12:34 amysoserious Says:
I leave a battered man but will return to fight another day. Goodnight.
___________
Sniff… sniff…
Kinda a dignified li’l feller, innit he?
BWAHAHAHAHA… sorry… I crack myself up sometimes…
January 12th, 2009 at 12:36 amLame-assed wanker….
January 12th, 2009 at 12:36 amZooey Says:
Yeah, but he always sticks it in his own eye.
_________
And to think he was aiming for his ear…
January 12th, 2009 at 12:37 amZooey Says:
Lame-assed wanker….
_________
Heh… that’s as good a “p*ss-soaked troll”… but hey, it’s all subjectional… so what do I know?
January 12th, 2009 at 12:38 amYeah, but in his defense, he could at least take a beating, could admit mistakes and tried to articulate his positions without too much name-calling.
As trolls go, pretty impressive performance. He can’t really help it if his arguments are weak. He’s a conservative; they haven’t much to work with.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:38 amI don’t know the troll well enough to know if he’s piss-soaked, but in the subjectional world it’s a given….
January 12th, 2009 at 12:41 amAnd he’s damn proud of doing the Lord Christss’s work.!
A sick pup that is in need of a Vet. to put him out of our misery.
January 12th, 2009 at 2:25 am#107 baretres,
January 12th, 2009 at 3:01 amRACIST MUCH?
#114 ysoserious said:
Yes, you are endorsing it’s use thus advocating it’s use. In fact, you attempt to explain why it is necessary at all.
My problem I have with your perspective is that it ignores America’s history concerning waterboarding and torture.
WHY DO YOU DENY AMERICA’S HISTORY?
So, for your perspective to be correct, why aren’t you pushing for forgiveness of the Japanese condemned use and prosecution by the USA for the very act of waterboarding? Why aren’t you pushing for forgiveness of US Servicemen convicted during Vietnam in a Court Martial for it’s use?
Sorry, you loose. Because for you to win, you’re willing to give up morals, principles and ethics.
.
January 12th, 2009 at 3:10 am#119 ysoserious,
So, being like your enemy, acting like your enemy, throwing off conventional Laws like your enemy distinguishes you from your enemy?
QUACK QUACK!
January 12th, 2009 at 3:13 amysoserious,
Watch the swearing in. Notice that the president swears faithfully to make sure that he ensures ALL Laws are followed. That’s the “PRESERVE” aspect.
Just how is Bush, Cheney, Yoo, Gonzales, Addington et.al. “PRESERVING” the Geneva conventions and the Eighth Amendment when they acquire legal “OPINIONS” as how to circumvent the law?
Just when did legal “OPINIONS” become law?
.
January 12th, 2009 at 3:20 am#146 ysoserious,
You’re right. Who needs laws?
IDIOT!
January 12th, 2009 at 3:30 amno mercy to terrorists or anyone who supports them.
January 12th, 2009 at 3:31 am#158 ysoserious,
Can you say anthrax attacks?
Can you say “Belt way sniper”?
.
January 12th, 2009 at 3:37 amnot to mention, but the producer of 24 is a right-wing hack who also produced the half hour news show, which flopped and wasn’t even funny…
January 12th, 2009 at 3:48 amWait, you mean we ONLY tortured this scumbag ? I think we should have sterilized this piece of offal using a vise and a pair of rusty pliers and then carpet-bombed the entire middle east ( with the exception of Israel ) starting with the head of the terrorist snake – Iran.
January 12th, 2009 at 4:05 am.
For those that argue the USA should engage in torture because the bad guys are gonna do it to our troops…
… It isn’t that I don’t disagree with your presumption of, “the bad guys are gonna do it to our troops” and all the evil it entails, it’s that on some intrinsic level it’s inferred that the use of torture is acceptable by the USA because the bad guys engage in it.
I guess it’s the mentality that attempts to rationalize away making it OK because the bad guys do it. How does that make us the good guy when we emulate the bad guy?
.
January 12th, 2009 at 4:32 am.
Furthermore, to those Loyalists out there, if America is to be a Nation of Laws and not men, then what makes it acceptable when men decide to not follow the laws and instead, insist that when a president does it that means it is not illegal?
.
January 12th, 2009 at 4:37 amDRAGONWOLF13,
January 12th, 2009 at 4:39 amHeil Bush?
ysoserious Says:
You are less logical than an underwater BBQ. The terrorists didnt cause the economic meltdown. Irresponsible financial institutions and inadequate safeguards did. Also murder and rape have also been around since the beggining and that longevity didnt suddenly make them OK. In Vietnam WE did not torture people though the South Vietnamese DID. Two US soldiers were COURT MARTIALED for being shown in a picture while SV Soldiers were waterboarding a prisoner and not stopping it. Do you EVER know what you are talking about and do you always make so little sense?
January 12th, 2009 at 5:14 amysoserious Says:
Forget Bush – he’s out in 9 days. I stated that anyone has the right to disagree with president – that’s what makes this country great. EugeneDebs said “Presidents only DESERVE the support they EARN” which is totally subjectional. Yeah, if you don’t support the president, the leader of this country and our troops, than your patriotism is suspect in my opinion. I did not vote for Mr. Obama (I know, big shocker), but I honestly do wish him all the
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
First I assume you mean subjective uh yeah. If YOU think he earned it then give it to him if I dont then I wont that is the point. Will I have to hold your hand and walk you through every point like a six year old with a learning disorder? Teddy Roosevelt was right. Saying there must be no criticism of a president and we must support him right or wrong is unpatriotic servile and morally treasonable. That is YOU Unpatriotic, servile and morally treasonable also not too bright.
January 12th, 2009 at 5:17 amysoserious Says:
By the way PUNK you have no standing to question my patriotism. YOU are not the patriotism police and GOD did not put YOU on a pedestal to judge who is more or less American he just gave you less sense than a common garden slug.
January 12th, 2009 at 5:18 amscorpio Says:
no mercy to terrorists or anyone who supports them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
After they are shown in a court of law to be terrorists do what the law will do. No quarter. Those who think we must BECOME evil to FIGHT evil are MORONS.
January 12th, 2009 at 5:23 amDRAGONWOLF13 Says:
Ah NO, that is you DONT think. You are a MORON who never aquired the requisite equipment to THINK. You cower under your mommys bed and beg fascists to do anything to keep you FEELING safe because you are a coward as well as being incredibly stupid. Do the world a favor and do your OWN vascectomy, I suggest a hammer and dull chisel. Whatever you do refrain from polluting our gene pool with your ignorance and soullessness. I also suggest adult education and dont forget that little chore with the hammer and dull chisel
January 12th, 2009 at 5:27 amI wonder what is worse stealing an election with the help of ACORN or waterboarding a known terrist? I pick stealing an election. What would you do if over 5000 of your family members were killed in a terrist attack? Thats right you probably would want the killers brought to justice any way how!!!!!!!!!!!!
January 12th, 2009 at 5:36 amI think it is too bad that they let Khalid Sheikh Mohammed live. That is way more than he let his victims do.
what the hell is a terrist. Did you mean tourist?
January 12th, 2009 at 6:01 amScottyrb Says:
WOW. The stupid runs stron in you grasshopper. Got any evidenc ACORN did any such thing? NO? Imagine my suprise you can show yourself out in disgrace. Whatever horrible thing they did I would not want US to lose our collective soul. We understand you are an ignorant soulless moron. We dont want to join you.
January 12th, 2009 at 6:05 amArticle from Al jezeera reporter’s interview.
Come on people! 14 seconds of water boarding a couple people to potentially save hundreds of thousands is justified
Summoning every thread of experience and courage, I looked Khalid in the eye and asked: “Did you do it?” The reference to September 11 was implicit. Khalid responded with little fanfare: “I am the head of the al-Qaida military committee,” he began, “and Ramzi is the coordinator of the Holy Tuesday operation. And yes, we did it.”
He went on: “About two and a half years before the holy raids on Washington and New York, the military committee held a meeting during which we decided to start planning for a martyrdom operation inside America. As we were discussing targets, we first thought of striking at a couple of nuclear facilities but decided against it for fear it would go out of control.”
I was dumbfounded. Nuclear targets? Could he be more specific?
“You do not need to know more than that at this stage, and anyway it was eventually decided to leave out nuclear targets for now.”
“What do you mean ‘for now’?”
“For now means ‘for now’,” Khalid said, silencing me.
The attacks, he said, were designed to cause as many deaths as possible. It would be a huge slap in the face for America, on its own soil.
January 12th, 2009 at 6:07 amGotta go to work now! Love one another! ; )
notaconnoralib Says:
You cannot show that would happen. We KNOW we got false information from this guy when we waterboarded him. We KNOW that. He told the CIA guys what they wanted to hear. NO. We do NOT eschew all values. If we disgard our values when they become inconvienient then we never had them. It is EASY to do what is right when its easy. Nothing is shown then. Only when it is HARD and you stick to them do you show you HAVE values. People like you would have the US join the evil doers club and say well we are evil but we arent as bad as other guys. We IMPRISONED Japanese when THEY waterboarded and they could easily have used the same rationale. We were at war. Those soldiers MIGHT have had information that would save Japanese lives. We didnt accept that rationale THEN we dont get to use it NOW. The very idea of appologizing for torture makes my skin crawl and you have to be soulsick to make such appologies. If you wouldnt want it done to OUR soldiers then we shouldnt do it.
January 12th, 2009 at 6:15 amEugene Debs, you certainly are an opininated little toad aren’t you ? For one with so little ( correct ) information you would think you would be more reluctant to broadcast your ignorance. I’m betting you eat a lot of granola and hug LOTS of trees. You refer to me as ” gene-pool pollution,” I refer to you and those of your ilk as ” society’s stain.” Once you crawl out of the shallow end of the gene pool, you might consider using that hammer and rusty chisel on youself. By the way, how much ” soul ” do you suppose your average terrorist has ?
January 12th, 2009 at 6:35 amI AM OPINIONATED? Face facts you are ignorant beyond human comprehension. Pondscum is several rungs up the evolutionary ladder from your knuckledragging moronity. Who cares WHAT you call us. We understand its hard for you when the other kids on the shortbus make fun of you because even by THEIR standards you are REALLY stupid. No QUESTION you represent a severe pollution of the gene pool. Time to just come to terms with your vast ignorance. You will always be stupid. You cant help it trolls are made that way. Take a nice pat on the head and go play nice with the other special children.
January 12th, 2009 at 6:40 amWayne @ #173 – that’s the best post I’ve seen in weeks! From an outside perspective (Sweden), the terrorists pretty much achieved their objective. Maybe, just maybe, the end of the Bush era can bring freedom back to the U.S. We’ll see.
January 12th, 2009 at 7:26 amwell surprise surprise hes admitted he is a killer and tortures people,but it wont make any difference as he has immunity from prosecution for war crimes as when the usa set up the hague after ww11 that was part of the agreement that no american soldier or citizen of the usa acting on behalf of the united states of america can ever be extradited to the war crimes courts …his actual admittion of guilt is a slap in the facxe to the world as he leaves office because he can say anything while he is in office and nothing will happen to him …the european union should get rid of all american style or instigated laws that hold europeans accountable but allow americans to kill anywhere in the world and never be take to the hague and i say the hague …why look at the gaurds who handed themselves in for prosecution over the deaths in iraq ask yourselfwhy they couldnt be tried there under iraqs laws aha immunity agreement and the hague aha only americans are immune there everyone else must and can stand trial that should change before anyone does any form of deals with the usa a war crime is a war crime and if found guilty then the penaltys should match like saddam hussains sentence ..this is exactly the reason terrorists attack americans and america injustice and torture and lies …..george bush should hang
January 12th, 2009 at 7:40 amOn C-Span’s National Journal, Tavis Smiley just laid down a challenge to Obama, regarding holding Bush administration officials accountable for their past possibly criminal behavior. He said that “great” presidents aren’t born, but forced to become great by their followers, and Obama must be a great president since times demand it, so we must hold him accountable for his campaign promises, and other past statements regarding torture, and the rule of law.
January 12th, 2009 at 8:12 amAnyone who is against Bush et al. going to jail for this needs to remember something — the Enron boys got legal opinions for every deal they did…and now they are not exactly dining in the Executive Dining Room
January 12th, 2009 at 8:42 amAmen to that – heads would roll!!!! Paper or plastic?
January 12th, 2009 at 8:54 amPAY ATTENTION TO THE GAURDS TRIALS IN THE USA …..HERES MY FORECAST THERE WILL BE A LEGAL FOUL-UP THAT LETS THEM ALL OFF THE HOOK WHICH OF COURSE WILL BE ORCHESTRATED BY THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION .IF ANYTHING THE ONLY GUYS WHO PLED GUILTY WILL DO SOME TIME NOT A LOT AS THEY WILL GET A PARDON ,THEY MUST BE SEEN TO DO JUSTICE YOU KNOW,AND THE REST WILL WALK ….WHY WILL THEY DO SOME TIME THE ADMITTED IT AND EMBARRASSED THE BUSH ADMIN ….I WONDER WHAT THE PLEA BARGAIN WILL TRULY BE ..NO JAIL
January 12th, 2009 at 8:54 amNow ask yourself why would Bush want to take credit for this?
Simply because Cheney recently admitted in an interview that he (Cheney) was onboard and consented to interrogation….
Another example of Bush not wanted to be outshined…..hence, IT WAS MY IDEA!!
Dangerous bunch of cowards………….
January 12th, 2009 at 10:28 amIf torture is so gosh darned effective, why are there so many laws, national and international, banning it? Laws and treaties we signed? It seems the latest justification for invading Iraq was to free them from a horrible despot who used torture against his opponents.
My country, right or wrong, isn’t patriotic…its suicidal. Investigating and prosecuting crime isn’t retribution or revenge, its justice. And responsibility.
January 12th, 2009 at 10:50 am“Criminals (in this case terrorists) mock society’s laws” (Liam Neeson, Batman Begins, 2005)
January 12th, 2009 at 11:17 amysoserious Says:
“Criminals (in this case terrorists) mock society’s laws”
_____________
Riiight… that’s why it’s a law enforcement, and not a military, issue.
They’re criminals.
Ya know, the way Clinton caught the guys who did the WTC bombings in 1993, and convicted them, and put them in prison, where they belong.
So, uh, will you be quote Keifer Sutherland from ‘24″ next?
January 12th, 2009 at 11:44 amysoserious Says:
And I’m sorry, how many times have we been attacked since 9/11?
How many attacks have been prevented since 9/11? Hint: it looks like a doughnut.
.
ysoserious Says:
I really hate to say this, but I’m not so sure the terrorists DIDN’T win. Why did they attack the WTC? Obviously for large casulties, but they were also attacking the heart of our economy, right? And now we’re in the worst economic situation since the Great Depression. Coincidence? Maybe.
Actually, an interesting point here.
Osama Bin Laden explicitly stated that his strategy in opposing the U.S. was to “bleed us dry” economically. His plan was to goad us into expending vast resources chasing him around, ignoring our own economic self-investment, and while we’re at it recruiting more terrorists until it escalates into a situation of world instability that we could on longer manage. In attempting to do so, we would collapse our own economy.
He made this prediction in the 90’s. Since 2001, G.W. Bush has been following OBL’s playbook to the letter. He didn’t have to. He could have checked the “intelligence” regarding Iraq, and put more priority into international partnerships and intelligence gathering. Instead, he played the role that OBL wrote for him, that of reckless stupid yee-haw cowboy who thinks he’s invincible and solves everything by bombing it.
As far as I’m concerned, they’re both equal partners in the crime of the dismantling of America.
.
Max-1 Says:
I guess it’s the mentality that attempts to rationalize away making it OK because the bad guys do it. How does that make us the good guy when we emulate the bad guy?
It’s the difference between maintaining an ethical standard or racing to the lowest common denominator. Here’s the problem with revenge mentality: whatever the worst person around does is suddenly OK for everybody to do. Next thing you know, you’re pulling entrails out of babies or whatever because “the other guys do it, we gotta keep up.” Which exposes their real underlying assumption: that willingness to do evil confers only advantage. These guys are like the snarling villian claiming that the hero’s goodness is his “weakness.” Which just illustrates another way in which conservatives are evil.
.
Max-1 Says:
Furthermore, to those Loyalists out there, if America is to be a Nation of Laws and not men, then what makes it acceptable when men decide to not follow the laws and instead, insist that when a president does it that means it is not illegal?
Interesting how they’re now running around screaming that Obama is going to kick in their doors, take away their guns and throw them all in camps. They don’t even remember what common human decency even looks like any more. All they know from is winning and losing in the big game of whose foot is in the boot and whose face is under it.
.
Scottyrb Says:
I wonder what is worse stealing an election with the help of ACORN or waterboarding a known terrist?
I’d say the real crime is worse than the fantasy one. I pick stealing an election.
.
Scottyrb Says:
What would you do if over 5000 of your family members were killed in a terrist attack? Thats right you probably would want the killers brought to justice any way how!!!!!!!!!!!!
Absolutely. I’d hope I had a President that could keep his head, and could apprehend (or failing that, kill) the persons responsible and bring them before a court of law.
.
Scottyrb Says:
I think it is too bad that they let Khalid Sheikh Mohammed live. That is way more than he let his victims do.
So you’re just like him? You aren’t any better? That sucks, dude.
.
ysoserious Says:
“Criminals (in this case terrorists) mock society’s laws” (Liam Neeson, Batman Begins, 2005)
Didn’t he basically play a terrorist in that movie? Way to non-sequitur there.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:07 pmDRAGONWOLF13.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:15 pmMight you offer evidence of a soul in anyone terrorist or nonterrorist?
Correction: the phrase “I pick stealing an election” in my comment above, belonged at the end of the italicized, quoted text above that response, not in the response itself.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:15 pmJust think, we have a President who did his homework before handling the plan of attack on this criminal and then obtained the information to keep us safe. This is exactly what the President should do and not just send the criminals of to do more harm the the USA. I do hope the next President thinks of us, US citizens first and does all he can do the insure we remain free. Or will be allow Islam to over take the Christians and the ACLU will be the final say on how to keep us safe. We pray not..
I am so very happy to have been a citizen, served well by George W. Bush, and we wish him well as he goes back to his home in Texas.
MISSION ACCOMPISHED
God Bless the U S A
January 12th, 2009 at 12:19 pmWell, jimday, it’s safe to say you’re in the decided minority there, and not just at this website — in the nation as a whole.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:33 pmI really like the addition of the ACLU almost like some sort of conditioned response…. Stikll you forgot to mention the labor unions and the “liberal media”
January 12th, 2009 at 12:40 pmjimday_44236@yahoo.com Says:
Yeah a less, oh I dont know, INSANE view of it might be we had a president who eschewed all standards of decency made a decision to violate all civilized standards, put our OWN soldiers at risk to be tortured and put a blot on our national honor. Now I guess the really brainwashed and really stoopid dont care. The bedwetter wussies that dont care anything about honor or decency as long as someone makes them feel better. MOMMY. MOMMY, please save me from the scary turban guys. WWWWWWAAHHHHHHHHHH. You people are pathetic cowards.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:32 pmThe Left loves to play the blame game. All of the world’s problems are Bush’s fault. The economy is his fault, the high gas prices were his fault (but he had nothing to do with them coming back down), the war is his fault. Let’s not lose sight of the fact that he took us to war in Iraq because of failed intelligence – intelligence that we’ve been gathering for years, long before he even took office. Should we blame Clinton for that? And you think that intelligence is going to IMPROVE by playing nice. Okay, good luck with that.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:38 pmysoserious Says:
Once again you come in here with your meter stuck on Limbaugh Stupid. Of COURSE the war was his fault. There isnt any QUESTION that without Bush we would not be in Iraq. As for the blame game that is priceless after listening to you wingnuts attack and blame Clinton for everything from the common cold to the sinking of the Titanic. You guys HATE accountability for your side. Your list of talking points was stupid but exactly what I expect. You guys are programmed to spew this idiocy better than Pavlov ever trained his dogs. It was NOT failed intelligence but BUSH LIES and distortions that took us to this war. I am just a working man but I was reading enough intelligence to have doubts and the inspectors were IN IRAQ going wherever they wanted and saying they needed only a few more months to finish their jobs. Bush made them leave and threw his I WANT MY WAR FIT. Regurgitating the idiocy you have been instructed to believe is sad and pathetic when it makes as little sense as your stupid post did. As for the blame game what is that even supposed to mean? If we try to assign any accountability to Bush we are playing the blame game? Its an intellectually vacuous dodge. Bush has EARNED blame with his lying, his incompetence, his crony capitalism and his basic worthlessness. The man is the wost president in modern times at the very least. Grow up.
January 12th, 2009 at 2:31 pmEugeneDebs Says: & ysoserious Says
Both of you are complete tools. Do either of you have any type of real education or careers… you know a JOB to go to? You guys are lazy asses that spend way too much time fighting on the computer. Quite frankly, I am completely bored with both of you, GET A LIFE. When you can come up with something intelligent to say and a source to reference and back your statements up, we might just have some interest in what your ill-faded attempts of intelligent conversation is all about!! Until then, try to find a publisher. I hear that children fiction books are very popular. It sounds to me that every problem you both have ever come across is someone else’s fault, perhaps the government. I didn’t realize you were both married, divorce each other and move on with your pathetic lives.
January 12th, 2009 at 4:37 pmHow many times did Bush, Rice and Perino publicly say, “We don’t torture.”? Such lying liars…Chances are, Helen Thomas would have asked him about this at the presser today. What a great send-off that would have been!
January 12th, 2009 at 5:21 pmUidiot Says:
You are bored with US. You are so stupid you must be left over from the original primordial stupid. Your posts are nothing but a waste of life to read. I have an IQ that puts your sad little pea brain in the toilet as does everyone with a triple digit IQ. Dryer lint is smarter than you. You WISH you had my career. Your ignorant attempts at mind reading out you as an UberMoron. You dont know what I do for a living nor how lazy I am only that I have time to spare and entertain myself this way, the same way YOU are entertaining YOURSELF. It isnt my fault that YOUR career asking if they want fries with that takes up so much or your time so you can afford the rent on your mommys basement. See how easy it is to just pull stupid assumptions about someone out of ones lower torso? My GOD you are ignorant. It must suck to be as stupid as you. I suggest you give up on any dream of higher brain function but you MIGHT take a shot at recognizing it one day you imbecilic cretin.
January 12th, 2009 at 5:55 pmEmail everyone – “BUSH KNEW !!!” – http://www.tvotw.com/index2.htm These 2 words need to be on the lips OF EVERY AMERICAN – AND QUICKLY !!!
Email everyone you know asking them to join the “Facebook” group – “HE KNEW !!!”
Have everyone sign up to “Twitter” at http://twitter.com/home and become followers of “TheGlobalFund”.
An open letter has been sent to Obama at – http://www.tvotw.com/0246_7Dec2008.htm
Email and ask everyone to support The Global Fund at – http://www.theglobalfundforpeacejusticeanddevelopment.net/PJD_Relevance.htm
The BBC conspiracy is at – http://www.tvotw.com/0208_23Feb2006.htm
Any other questions – email to – claytonw.wentworth@tvotw.com
January 12th, 2009 at 5:59 pmAlso – listen to what Scott Rotter says about Bush. Ritter – an American – was Chief UN Weapons Inspector in Iraq for 7 years. HE KNOWS WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT – http://www.tvotw.com/TVOTW_InResponseToBush_CarrierDeclaration_2May2003.htm#ScottRitter
January 12th, 2009 at 6:03 pmThe Global Fund “Mission” statement is at – http://www.theglobalfundforpeacejusticeanddevelopment.net/0206_20Nov2008.htm
January 12th, 2009 at 6:09 pmSeems excessive Clayton…
January 12th, 2009 at 6:17 pmysoserious Says:
The Left loves to play the blame game. All of the world’s problems are Bush’s fault. The economy is his fault, the high gas prices were his fault (but he had nothing to do with them coming back down), the war is his fault.
Correct.
One exception: honestly, I have no idea why the gas prices came down, and it’s weird that nobody’s reporting on it. Do gas prices fluctuate randomly, or what? If there are reasons for the drop, what are they? Might those factors cause a wild increase later? I don’t know, because nobody’s telling me. Apparently, as long as the news is what we want to hear, nobody digs any deeper. I find this highly disconcerting.
.
ysoserious Says:
Let’s not lose sight of the fact that he took us to war in Iraq because of failed intelligence – intelligence that we’ve been gathering for years, long before he even took office. Should we blame Clinton for that? And you think that intelligence is going to IMPROVE by playing nice. Okay, good luck with that.
The President is responsible for selecting the people in charge of the intelligence agencies. When it comes to making a decision as consequential as starting a war, he’s also responsible for checking the intelligence. Let’s go into that a bit closer: BushCo claimed that the information given to them was “real evidence, not just a summary.” We found out later, that it was just a summary. I could go further and discuss the Office of the Vice President “pipelining” intelligence past analysts who could determine its value, but I think the evidence/summary thing alone stands as sufficient reason to claim that: A) Bush lied about the war, and B) Bush didn’t care if the “intelligence was wrong” so long as it told him what he wanted to hear.
Let’s go over this step by step:
1) Bush stocked the intelligence agency with loyal partisans.
2) Bush & Co. hinted/cajoled/threatened the loyal partisans in the intelligence agencies to find a reason to attack Iraq.
3) Cheney was “pipelining” the “raw intelligence” that said Iraq had WMD’s and/or was in league with Al-Qaeda directly to the White House, bypassing analysts who could determine whether those were important tips or just biased rumors.
4) The intelligence agencies finally presented Bush with a summary statement saying Iraq had WMD’s and was in league with Al-Qaeda.
5) Bush made the decision to launch a preventive war (the first in U.S. history since the Spanish-American war) with no exit strategy (for the first time since Vietnam). Further even-longer-term “firsts” would follow.
6) Bush & Co. used the summary statement provided by the intelligence agencies to convince Congress, our allies, and the American public that they knew that Iraq had WMD’s and was in league with Al-Qaeda. They didn’t show anyone any evidence (although our allies and Congress saw the summary) and told us all to trust them.
7) Buch & Co. made the argument to Congress that they needed an authorization of force from the Senate so they could “negotiate from a position of strength” with Saddam.
8) Within the same week that the authorization of force had passed, Bush claimed that “diplomacy has failed” and began mobilizing the military into the area.
Who’s fault is that?
Next up, a brain-teaser: what result does militarily destablizing the Middle East have on the price of oil?
Later we can talk about a little thing called “deregulation.”
.
EugeneDebs Says:
I have an IQ that puts your sad little pea brain in the toilet…
You WISH you had my career…
E-Peen alert. Woop, woop!
January 12th, 2009 at 8:46 pmElBruce Says:
EugeneDebs Says:
I have an IQ that puts your sad little pea brain in the toilet…
You WISH you had my career…
E-Peen alert. Woop, woop!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
In my defense I have a housecat that is better than Uidiot also and he is dead
January 12th, 2009 at 9:55 pmEugebe Debs, anyone who doesn’t agree with your views most certainly must have been ” programmed to spew this idiocy better than Pavlov’s dogs.” After reading your ( mostly ) uniformed and severely biased posts, the only thing I wanted to ” spew ” was my lunch ! You make me weep for this county’s future, because there are far too many uninformed and simple-minded cretins ( like yourself ) in this country who share your views. Myself and the other ” short bus ” riders laugh when we see such idiocy ! Of course, I do understand that arguing with you is akin to arguing with a block of cement ( which is no doubt an apt description of what resides between your ears ) but, if you wish to present anything at all in the way of an intelligent and informed ( without bias ) point, I am most certainly willing to listen and/or debate the FACTS. As to your view that I am several rungs below ” pond scum “, it is still a better view from up here than the one you must have. I do hope that in the future you take the time to review and analyze the facts ( not just what the America-hating spin- doctors propogate ) before offering your ( mostly ) worthless opinions on any subject. A good start would be a history review, because, as the saying goes, ” if we fail to learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it.”
January 12th, 2009 at 11:37 pmSo about that soul thing?
January 12th, 2009 at 11:47 pmdbadbass, look into a childs’ eyes…if you are moved in a positive way, you have a soul, if you see a potential victim, you don’t. If you don’t get this, you are Eugene Debs.
January 13th, 2009 at 12:54 amDRAGONWOLF13 Says:
You are an ignorant punk DW. The first post I saw from you adovocated pretty much genocide in the middle east. You are a simpleminded moron who got your feelings hurt because you got spanked. Get over it. You are stupid it is going to happen again and again. Your stupidity is permanent you wont grow out of it. You will never have a functioning cerebral cortex nor the ability for higher brain function. Spewing your hivemind talking points and basic stupidity is the only thing you will ever be capable of then one of the liberals here will spank you again because you are too stupid to be anything more than batting practice. No sense in getting frustrated about it. If God had meant you to make sense or cogent arguments he would have given you a functional brain. He didnt and you never will. Accept your fate. You will be a moron forever. A free clown show is the ONLY thing you have to offer.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:17 amEugene Debutante, I’m not by any means a therapist, but I’m pretty certain that the venom you so liberally ( emphasis on liberal = limp-wristed pansy ) spew is a reflection of your own self-hatred and an extremely over-the-top attempt to make up for your MANY failings and shortcomings. As for getting spanked…let’s just say I’m pretty sure you ride to work in a tiny car with a dozen other individuals with big red noses. Again, the invitation to discuss/debate anything of intellectual merit stands. You claim to have a ” funtioning cerebral cortex ” so here is your opportunity to PROVE it.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:59 amDumbwolf
You arent sure of anything moron. YOU are too stupid to know that water is wet. Of COURSE you arent a therapist. I would be shocked if someone as ignorant as you passed third grade. You can keep on pretending to amazing mind reading powers as to how my life is and what my job is. I am sure it takes your mind off of the other special kids making fun of you on the shortbus. If we are just imagining things I imagine you spend all YOUR time in your mommys basement either typing and eating cheetos or playing with that rubber blowup dolly that is the closest thing to a woman you will ever touch. The projection here is all yours. You come in spewing insults then whine piteously about MY insults. It isny my fault you are so stupid. You will have to learn to live with that. Trying to take it out on me is not only pathetic its worthless. I have a great life and love being me. Since you are so interested I have had the same union job for more than thirty years. Make better than a hundred K and get five weeks vacation with great benifits. No one as stupid as you could possibly pass the tests we take so dont even dream about being me. Face it you are a moronic loser and that just isnt going to change. The best you can ever hope for is to RECOGNIZE logic and higher brain function. Performing the tasks will forever be beyond your wildest dreams.
January 13th, 2009 at 4:26 amOh by the way MoronWolf if you want to discuss things without the flamewar YOU START. What ya got? As long as you are insulting me you can bet the farm I will return serve. Even someone as stupid as you should be able to understand the dynamic
January 13th, 2009 at 4:28 amEugene Debutante, you certainly lived up to my expectations. Of course, since those expectaions were so low, there was ABSOLUTELY no way you could disappoint. Since I find that trading insults with someone who so obviously never progressed into adulthood to be antithetical to intellectual stimulation, I will now consider you like the mosquito that you are ( annoying but tolerable ) and treat you the same way that your mother should have treated your father on the day you were concieved, that is, ignore you. And, since I can tell the thought may have crossed your puny little brain, I work my own hours, vacation when and where I want, and NET almost 100k/year ( it almost pains me to think that someone with your limited range of thought earns in the same neighborhood as myself.) Adios, Ed.
January 13th, 2009 at 9:41 amIn response to ElBruce:-
For a complete run down on the gas price situation – go to this link – http://www.tvotw.com/0195_06_20_2004.htm
I have been personally involved at management level. I can speak with authority on these matters.
Best regards,
Clayton W. Wentworth.
http://www.tvotw.com/index2.htm
http://www.theglobalfundforpeacejusticeanddevelopment.net
January 16th, 2009 at 4:04 pmTorture does not provide “intelligence”.
April 24th, 2009 at 4:26 pmIt may provide information.
The information obtained through torture and duress is inherently suspect, and always needs corroboration.
Far more, and more reliable, information is obtained through rapport and compassion.
AlexMa
http://www.hotbarbiegames.com
http://www.carsforce.com
maybe
sikis
April 26th, 2009 at 2:20 pmporno izle
porno videolar
porn videos