Scarborough: ‘That’s the silliest thing I’ve ever heard’ that torture doesn’t work.
Scarborough: ‘That’s the silliest thing I’ve ever heard’ that torture doesn’t work.
Today on MSNBC’s Morning Joe, host Joe Scarborough waged an ardent, six-minute defense of torture, arguing with the Financial Times’ Krystia Freeland that torture is always effective — and that waterboarding, sleep deprivation, and stress positions aren’t torture anyway. He mocked Freeland’s objections as “sophomoric” and declared that torture has saved American lives:
SCARBOROUGH: Yes I do. Yes I do. And I know for a fact that waterboarding brought our interrogators, brought Americans, probably about 70-75 percent of what they get. What they got from Khalid Shaikh Mohammed opened doors that we are still going through. Waterboarding has produced and given so much evidence to our people in the CIA and in the other intelligence agencies. Khalid Shaikh Mohammed by himself has done more to crush al Qaeda than Dick Cheney or George Bush because of waterboarding.
Watch his entire screed:
Scarborough condescendingly asked Freeland, “Should we just bring them a birthday cake and ask them what soccer match they’d like to see?” In fact, the interrogator who successfully brought down Abu Musab al-Zarqawi — and who has written and spoken publicly about how torture doesn’t work — told Laura Ingraham last month he broke one insurgent after he gave him a copy of Harry Potter.
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“Next up, pedophilia – a great way to keep kids off your lawn. After that, we’ll talk about how much the crime rate has increased since lynching was outlawed. Is it time to bring it back? We’ll be right back after these messages.”
January 12th, 2009 at 12:47 pmStupid, lying, evil neocon SCUM.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:48 pmAs Military Lawyers, Soldiers and documents show Khalid Sheikh Mohammed’s 6 & 8 year old children were tortured by the US one could ask what would America do if any American child were tortured and what parent wouldn’t lie to save their child. Most of the wing nuts are talking crazy because Bush/Cheney and their Administration will be changed with Torture and War Crimes. Right now their looking for American support. Scarborough would piss in his pants if they showed him a waterboard and cry like a baby before anything was even done.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:51 pmWhat Joe is saying is that, on him, torture would work. Even if he was innocent, he would tell the torturers what they want to here and then Joe would even believe what he said was true because, you know, torture works.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:54 pmI watched him spew his crap thin morning while I was getting ready for work and it was everything I could do not to throw something at the tv. He thinks he knows more about everything than anyone else does. He barely let anyone say a word. He kept cutting Freeland off every time she opened her mouth. Grrr.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:54 pmFourteen Defining Characteristics of Fascism
# 2. Disdain for the importance of human rights. The regimes themselves viewed human rights as of little value and a hindrance to realizing the objectives of the ruling elite. Through clever use of propaganda, the population was brought to accept these human rights abuses by marginalizing, even demonizing, those being targeted. When abuse was egregious, the tactic was to use secrecy, denial, and disinformation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVVa1IvHdKc
January 12th, 2009 at 12:54 pmThis is so aggravating! How incredibly stupid! Torture is not only immoral, but unpractical.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:54 pmI’ve said it more than once; conservatives have more important priorities than getting good information.
I’m sure they want to get good information, but most importantly, they want to punish. They have a need for vengeance and they cannot abide kind treatment of those they consider evil or bad, even if it is more effective at bringing about the desired conclusion.
We’ve seen this in their attitudes toward welfare, and the impact of competing priorities is crystal clear when it comes to sex education. Their policies, ranging from “abstinence-only” to “tough love” inevitably produce higher rates of STD, teen pregnancy and abortions. If reducing those things were their top priority, they could recognize that abstinence-only is a failure. But that is not what they’re really after. They are after what they consider “good moral society”. If a few kids have to have babies at sixteen to prove a point, that’s a trade-off they’re willing to make.
Likewise with torture, they are ore interested in being feared than in getting good intelligence. So if they have to put our troops in a position of getting tortured, they’re willing to make that sacrifice (even though it’s not their sacrifice, is it?) as long as they can exercise power over The Bad Guys.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:54 pmI still don’t understand why people that go on shows like Scarborough think and act like they’ll be debating.
If you’re getting into a cage with a vicious dog intent on eating you alive, you don’t discuss with it the medical reasons why doing so is a bad idea.
Come on, wisen up.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:55 pmSadly, he’s semi-correct, torture does work, just not in our favor. U.S. torture policy has openly and admitedly been the single most effective recruiting tool for Al-Qaeda.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:56 pmI’m not sure what is more pathetic…an administration that openly admits to using torture, a media that tells us its a good thing or a large piece of the public that agrees.
Please tell me Rod Serling is going to step up soon.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:59 pmRalph, I think your analysis is on the money.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:59 pmIt’s a punishment mentality with no intent of getting information.
Scarborough once again shows us his astonishing stupidity.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:00 pmSilly, huh?
Then why don’t we make him eat silly string until he fesses up about that intern.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:01 pmReplacing this knuckledragging neanderthal with someone sensible needs to be MSNBC’s first priority for the new year.
This guy needs to be in jail for killing his intern, karma needs to grab this moron just like it did OJ.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:01 pmI’ve actually seen Scarborough verbally abuse Freeland worse than he did today. How this misogynist creep keeps his show is beyond me.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:02 pmralph the wonder llama Says:
I’ve said it more than once; conservatives have more important priorities than getting good information.
__________
Short Ralph: GOOPers are closet S&M freaks who get raging chubbies from torture. Clearly, Morning Joe is one of them.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:03 pmJoe is an idiot.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:03 pmhonestly, ignore that pig. he’s just there to make his short little nantucket sugar daddy happy… just like all the boyz in the msnbc fratpac.
take a look at who in that crowd has endorsed torture and that explains it all — limp-dicked bully boys who fold at the first challenge:
>> christopher matthews (’24′ says torture’s fine; that’s all the rationale tweety needed);
>> yoyoyo, chuckie t, msnbc pollboy;
>> lying joe scarborough — who you can bet masturbates to the official presidential collector’s dvd of the abu ghraib/guantanamo/white house bunker torture sessions that was presented to any and all who showed idiot son the love.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:03 pmRalph, if what you are saying is true, the Repugs would be all for fighting AIDS without mentioning condoms…
Wait. My bad. ALmost every position the R’s take is ideology driven, not results driven.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:04 pmHe’s right…Scarborough has tortured logic and reasoning and it got him his own show, where MSNBC tortures viewers’ reality daily.
Can’t spell ‘propaganda’ without ‘g-o-p.’
January 12th, 2009 at 1:04 pmSCARBOROUGH: We could have saved Terri Schiavo if we would have waterboarded her husband.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:05 pmTRoS, I probably wouldn’t have put it just that way but… I can’t argue with the capsule assessment.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:05 pmIt’s just amazing to me how many interrogation “experts” there are on the right.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:06 pmAnd I know for a fact…em>
Interesting point here. Last I heard the Bush administration was saying they wouldn’t produce obtained evidence to justify waterboarding because such evidence is classified. Is Scarborough admitting to having illegally obtained classified information? Because there’s no way for someone without national security clearance to know such a thing “for a fact.” But I might be wrong. If there is, let him produce the evidence upon which his “fact” is based.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:07 pm“We’ve captured and killed many terrorists with torture.” to paraphrase Joe. Well as long as we’ve killed alleged terrorists with information garnered from torture whether it’s true or not I feel better. /sarc
January 12th, 2009 at 1:07 pmSo thats the choice Scarborough gives us: Either break international law and our own soul by torturing people, or give them bithday cakes? That is the scope of the arguement?
Is the right side simply filled with dimwits? Appears so.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:08 pmScarborough: ‘That’s the silliest thing I’ve ever heard’ that torture doesn’t work.
Interesting.
The silliest thing I’ve ever heard?
“Outside of a dog, a book is a boy’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read.”
- Groucho Marx
January 12th, 2009 at 1:09 pmOddly none of these “experts” has ever served in the military. And because he didn’t have a reasonable argument about McCain’s opinion on torture he was going to “go there” off the air. Yeah … right.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:09 pmElBruce, I think your error is in taking the phrase “I know for a fact” literally.
When right-wingers say “I know for a fact” they really mean “I know in my heart” which translates to “I really really believe”.
See, if they believe it hard enough, then it becomes a fact.
This is the source of many a conflict in debate between right and left.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:11 pmI saw the segment when it happened.
Joe, like a typical re-thug, talked over every comment Freeland tried to make. He even talked over Mika when she tried to make her usual meek peep.
Maybe someone should torture him to find out how that young girl really died in his office.
MSNBC should fire this bully……NOW.
¶ AIO
January 12th, 2009 at 1:11 pmralph the wonder llama Says:
TRoS, I probably wouldn’t have put it just that way but… I can’t argue with the capsule assessment.
___________
Not tryin’ ta put words in yer mouf, Ralfie, but sometimes, yer too perlite.
Me? Heh… not a problem…
January 12th, 2009 at 1:12 pmIf what you want is to extract a confession from an accused, torture ‘works.’
That’s it. ConfessionsRUs. Blasphemy? Great. Heresy? You betcha! Witchcraft. All day. Apostasy? Never fails.
ANY other classification of information is immune to the tender mercies of torture to produce reliable information.
Shit, even confessions extracted from the Rack might be considered ‘tainted,’ donch’tink?
January 12th, 2009 at 1:13 pmScarborough condescendingly asked Freeland, “Should we just bring them a birthday cake and ask them what soccer match they’d like to see?”
___________
Um, no, dumbass. Arabs call it “football” like the rest of the world.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:13 pmidiot joe, off-mike: “of course torture works! didn’t you see last night’s episode of ‘24′?”
January 12th, 2009 at 1:14 pmI see all the trolls that spout on about the liberal media bias and how in the tank MSNBC is for Democrats are curiously quiet on this thread, right AIO?
January 12th, 2009 at 1:14 pmI’ll go out on a limb and say that maybe, depending on the person and the techniques, maybe torture works sometimes.
But here’s the thing that the rabid proponents of torture always conveniently gloss over – torture is NEVER effective if the person being tortured doesn’t know anything!
How do we know if he knows something?
We torture him.
What if he doesn’t know anything?
We torture him some more, to be sure.
How do we know if what he tells us is true?
We torture him some more, to be sure.
What if by the time he finds out what he told us isn’t true, people have died because of a lack of information, or deliberately false information?
Uh…we torture them some more?
In the “Jack Bauer scenario” conservatives always have involuntary pants-protein-spills over, Bauer always knows – for sure – that he’s got the right guy, and that the information he has is critical and must be had within seconds (it’s also a fictional TV show, but shhhhh! Don’t tell anyone!)
But our detainment camps like Abu Gharib and Gitmo are filled with people who were tortured into confessions that either a: they didn’t make or b: are filled with inaccuracies. Are there a few instances where it worked? I dunno, maybe. Were lives then saved? I dunno, maybe. Was it worth the loss of freedoms for all those other detainees? And if you think yes, at one point does the scale tip, and the amount of people tortured no longer balances out the potential of lives saved?
The fact that these questions by and large can not be answered by all but the most coldhearted sociopaths is why we shouldn’t torture. Would I want to torture someone who kidnapped by kid to get him to confess. Betchur ass. Would it suck if he never said anything, and then my torture methods killed him or made him more intent on telling me nothing, or he lied to me, or I had the wrong guy all along but I was so crazed in my goal I didn’t think straight, and now my kid is dead too because of my incompetency?
Awwww, we’re not supposed to think about things like that! We only torture the right guys, or else we wouldn’t be torturing them, right? USA! USA!
January 12th, 2009 at 1:16 pmI always love the reverse response they give. If you’re not for torture, then you must be for the extreme opposite!
Not being for torture doesn’t mean you’re for necessarily going to do nothing but group hugs and slumber parties.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:19 pmHear, hear, slappy magoo!
January 12th, 2009 at 1:21 pmWhen someone makes this outlandish claim, just ask them to name one person who was arrested, indicted, or convicted on tortured info. And what plot was thwarted based on info obtained by torture. They can’t.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:21 pmAnd Joe has proof of what he says……exactly where? Oh, that’s right he is just making this crap up.
Joe the liar, Joe the Brownshirt, Joe the Propagandist, Joe the Lemming, Joe the Fascist, Joe the Repukian scum mouthpiece, Joe the Moron.
Now we have another Joe who doesn’t know jacksh!t about what he’s spewing.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:23 pmMAYBE he knows first hand…
Hmmm. here’s a scenario- maybe he was getting her to admit that she loved his advances, and it went too far?
yeah awful- but he’s a dick anyhow, and she turn up dead in his congressional office.
i pulled the blockquotes off a post from DailyKOS, which were pulled from elsewhere.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:24 pmhttp://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/3/20/74312/7031
uh oh… this one’s gonna be hard to live down… joe’s going to have a hard time backing up and admitting the truth… if he wanted to, that is…
January 12th, 2009 at 1:24 pmbut to broadcast such outrageously inaccurate blather is, or SHOULD be, really embarrassing…
John Kerry Says: I feel like I’m a talking moron on this site!
Right you are Johnny bedwetter.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:25 pmI don’t know what else we expect from an unrepentant ignoramus like Joe Scarbo.
I’m just so happy these dolts continue to rant in front of the camera machines…
January 12th, 2009 at 1:26 pmThe thing is Slappy Magoo, Republicans act like they are following a script. Just like on 24. They know the outcome before they do the torturing because what they tell the people is going to be the same no matter what they learn or don’t learn. It’s all smoke and mirrors, special effects and stunt doubles. Where the big powerful leader justifies his actions and sends the soldier following orders to prison.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:27 pmI suggest that Joe have some bamboo shoved under his fingernails and a baseball bat shoved up his Cheney – while he’s being waterboarded. Maybe his attitude will change a bit.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:28 pmCome on, it is a known fact that torture works. Europe is free of witches and heretics, isn’t it?
The only thing torture absolutely proves is the soul deep moral sickness of the torturer.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:28 pmInteresting – arguing that “torture works”. Even IF torture produced reliable and actionable intelligence, the questions of morality and legality are prominent protesters. It seems rather common that the supporters of torture tend to emphasize effectiveness over morality or legality. Ol’ Joe even seemed to add on the disclaimer (”(these things) aren’t torture anyway”) as an afterthought. He isn’t concerned about morality. The support for torture is strangely obsessive from those who promote it.
And, if torture works (and therefore should be used), why don’t we open it up to the civilian police? How many crimes could be stopped by regular use of torture in prisons. Suspects of crimes could be tortured until they confessed all they know (and since torture always produces useful and good intelligence, a LOT of crime could be stopped before it happens — pre-emptive law enforcement). If the rationalizations FOR the use of torture are true, then that should be a tool used in all places where information is needed: prison, police, military, and even schools (to find out the trouble makers — e.g. who broke into the school, who did the graffitti, etc).
….And, don’t make false assumptions about the s&m types: the vast majority of s&m types are ‘consentual only’. These F^@kwads are SADISTS. Huge difference. A sadist has a severe mental problem. S&M is a subculture of consenting adults (a lifestyle choice or a fetish), not a sociopathic mental disorder.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:29 pmJohn Kerry Says:
ANSWER: Since the bastards are still in custody at the Gitmo resort we just torture them again and again and again until we DO get the correct info!!
January 12th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
_____________
You are subhuman. You and all others who advocate the use of torture have no place in our society.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:30 pmWe? So, you are an interrogator at Gitmo?
January 12th, 2009 at 1:30 pmJanuary 12th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
You know, I never before realized the striking resemblance Joe Scarborough bears to our good friend Troll John Kerry.
Only difference is joe sticks around to defend his belches.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:31 pmI feel sorry for any of our troops who become POWs in the future. God only knows what forms of torture will be commited on them thanks to the policies of George W. Bush.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:31 pmSince torture works so well, why haven’t they found Bin Laden! This is some serious bullshyte!!! OMG!
January 12th, 2009 at 1:31 pmI hope the wingnuts here will let me know when Joe has the families on his show of the Japanese soldiers who were convicted of war crimes for waterboarding American soldiers. I want to hear his apology to them since torture is ok.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:34 pmBecause Bush is the one who allowed bin Laden to escape. Maybe they should torture Bush.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:34 pmJohn Kerry Says:
____________
Ralphie?
I present JK as Exhibit A for my “Raging Chubby” hypothesis…
I rest my case.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:35 pmYes TRoS, that post by JK was timely.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:35 pmWell the stupidest cells of the Limborg hivemind ought to show up soon and tell us how dumb we are and what a GREAT institution torture is, the next level up will equivicate and say they dont condone torture BUT… And tell us why its a good idea. We already had JK but he is pondscum incoherent idiot level not even worth reading. His posts are a biohazard. Read at your own risk your IQ may plummet. He is stupider than sunlight.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:41 pmWhen is MSNBC going to develop a spine and purge its bowels from the crap it spews in the mornings ? How can the same company that gives us Olbermann and Rachel keep this putrified brainless toxic piece of sh*t, is beyond me.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:41 pmCome On MSNBC!!! It’s time to let toxic people go !Fox would be more than happy to hire Joe. He fits right in !
Indeed, shoeless, indeed…
Proving once again, that even an imbecilic cretin like JK was born to serve some purpose in God’s scheme…
January 12th, 2009 at 1:41 pmectoendomezo Says: …
It is INSANE..please…someone with more balls than I..SHOW the people the REALITY…show them that TORTURE..results in ANYTHING the TORMENTOR wishes..PERIOD!
Funny thing, a medieval inquisitor did just that, to prove that a tortured person will admit to anything, given effective enough torture. Can’t remember names right now, though. I should keep that on hand for this kind of thread.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:41 pmJoe is definitely Fascist and a probable Murderer.
http://kennysideshow.blogspot.com/2008/03/look-back-at-joe-lori-klausutis.html
Burn in Hell Joe you fascist murderer!
January 12th, 2009 at 1:45 pmI believe that if we were to put Scarborough’s t@sticles in a vise and start turning we could get him to admit he killed that dead woman in his office. And because torture “works” his confession would be admissible in court, right?
January 12th, 2009 at 1:45 pmWe’re sorry, JK, there is no appeal. Every gitmo detainee will be released to your basement. Don’t forget to share the covers.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:47 pmWell, the FBI disagrees with Mr. Scarborough. moreover, stress positions and hanging people from the ceiling with handcuffs is torture. Also, note the photos of prisoners in ear muffs, gloves and goggles. That’s all part of sensory deprivation which is a proven means of driving people insane. That, too, is torture.
There is not ONE credible account of any valuable intelligence being obtained through torture.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:49 pmDavidHart Says:
Sense dep and sleep dep turn peoples brains to tapioca so quickly that I have seen an interrogater say its useless to even try to talk to them.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:52 pmScarborough must believe in unicorns, too!
January 12th, 2009 at 1:52 pmScarborough doesn’t believe driving people insane through sleep or sensory deprivation is torture because he’s insane and he wasn’t tortured. That’s the way the Republican mind works.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:55 pm.
So, Joe opines for torture…
… How very American of him, YES?
.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:58 pmI’ll bet that Joe Scarborough would admit to being a unicorn if he were tortured.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:59 pmJohn Kerry Says:
Sorry left nut lib wackos!
Stop apologizing so much. You don’t even know what you keep apologizing for.
.
John Kerry Says:
Torture DOES work so stop the bullshit lies that it doesn’t!!
Prove it.
.
John Kerry Says:
ANd forget that bullshit you’ve been using about getting wrong info. Wake up loonies. Guess what? IF any of those nice terrorist pals of yours gives us the wrong info, what the hell do you think we do next??? ANSWER: Since the bastards are still in custody at the Gitmo resort we just torture them again and again and again until we DO get the correct info!!
We’re going to torture them again and again anyways, so what have they got to lose? As far as they’re concerned, they’re in the hands of pure evil insane imbeciles (aka. Republicans) and they have no hope to begin with. So they got nothing to lose.
Also, in case you weren’t aware of this, actual terrorists are pretty tough. We’ve also got them mixed in with cab drivers and people who made the mistake of going on vacation in Western Pakistan in 2003. Those people aren’t so tough. And we don’t know which are which, because the only method we have of finding out is by torturing them! It makes for an interesting logical puzzle (I know, I just completely lost you here, JK) – the guy who cracks earlier and admits he’s a terrorist is less likely to be a terrorist than the guy who resists longer. But there’s no way to know that for sure, because they might have thought of that for you.
But that’s all moot anyways, since the fact that we’ve had them out of contact from the world for the last five years means that not a single one of them has any actionable info. For every real terrorist that was captured, his cell would scrap any plans he knew about and move on to other ones. So your little fantasy of going and checking to verify if info was true or false? Just that. If I tell you that there are two guys named Abdul and Ali, and they live at thus-and-so address in Lisbon (or did before I was captured) the fact that they’re not there now doesn’t tell you whether I have real information or was just making something up.
We would have learned a lot more just by letting everybody go and tailing them. Heck, we would have learned a lot more by letting everybody go, ignoring them, and instead doing some of that thing – what’s that called – oh yeah, intelligence gathering. What we used to do before 9/11 “changed everything.”
.
John Kerry Says:
I feel like I’m talking to morons on this site!
You can just imagine how we feel!
January 12th, 2009 at 2:00 pmJoe Scarborough would admit to being a progressive liberal if he were tortured.
January 12th, 2009 at 2:01 pmJoe Scarborough would admit to being a LIBERAL if he were tortured.
January 12th, 2009 at 2:01 pmoops. Posted twice. Sorry.
January 12th, 2009 at 2:03 pmJohn Kerry
January 12th, 2009 at 2:03 pmI can tell you’re reading this site using your reptilian brain
So it’s understandable that you get it.
We should all bear in mind that NBC, a major American media outlet, gives this stupid, ignorant, dangerous, rude guy several hours of airtime every day.
The Constant Weader at http://www.RealityChex.com
January 12th, 2009 at 2:12 pmI find it informative to see all the reichwing wackos who support torture and believe it works are reiching wacko chicken hawk cowards who have never worn a uniform. Those who have served, are serving, and who have been on the receiving end of torture do not agree with them. I would assume the cowards get their information from other cowards.
January 12th, 2009 at 2:15 pmBush’s torture policy most definitely DID give them actionable intel. Of course the intel may not be factual. That didn’t matter and wasn’t the goal anyway. The goal was to extract confessions from detainees and leak the confessed threats to the press and local gov’ts. Raise the Homeland Security Advisory System Alert to orange. You see, just a few false confessions gives the Pentagon’s Propaganda arm plenty of wiggle room when they leak “anonymous intel sources” as providing “real confessions” of potential attacks to every major tv and radio news oulet (who are more than happy to jump at the chance of having a scoop that will only vaguely hint at what the threat may be). It also gave our President plenty of “unreportable due to National Security” tidbits to hint at from his bully pulpit. Keeping the masses contantly scared is the best way to keep anyone from questioning the validity or morality of what you are doing.
January 12th, 2009 at 2:17 pmSomehow I can’t help but feel like their torturing is in some way connected with the continuation of their cover-up.
January 12th, 2009 at 2:18 pma few “tidbits” from the Bush Administration’s favorite inspiration:
‘In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
“All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting.”
“Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac.”
“War against a foreign country only happens when the moneyed classes think they are going to profit from it.”
“War is a way of shattering to pieces, or pouring into the stratosphere, or sinking in the depths of the sea, materials which might otherwise be used to make the masses too comfortable, and hence, in the long run, too intelligent.”
GEORGE ORWELL
January 12th, 2009 at 2:18 pmElBruce Says:
If I tell you that there are two guys named Abdul and Ali…
January 12th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
__________
Actually, there are no guys named Abdul anywhere in the world. This is a common misconception. The actual construction is ‘Abd (servant) + al (of the) + one of the 99 names of God. Hence ‘Abd Allah, ‘Abd ar-Rahim, ‘Abd al-Latif, ‘Abd as-Salam, ‘Abd al-Jabbar, etc.
Just pickin nits here…
January 12th, 2009 at 2:19 pmhussein toasterhead
January 12th, 2009 at 2:23 pmThanks! I love learning stuff like that. It broadens the mind!
So was the prosecution of Japanese for doing the same thing illegal? Were they prosecuted merely because they surrendered? The precident for this has already been set, but as soon as one person gets above the law, the whole thing falls apart.
The torturing Nazis used to be the butt of the joke, ‘We have ways of finding out…’. Now we are. Just another ironic conservative movement: torture advocates. Just like the ‘pro-life’ death penalty proponents.
January 12th, 2009 at 2:26 pmI’m not a linguist, but I believe the French have a good word for this form of right-wing behavior.
The word is sottise–a noun indicating a highly militant stupidity–a stupidity which is proud of itself, a form of intellectual chutzpah.
I can see many of you nodding your heads in recognition. We’re seeing this behavior from our defeated right-wing brethren constantly (e.g., there is no global warming, deregulation makes the economy boom, Iraq has been a huge success, torture works, etc.).
Sottise is in evidence when a person confidently assert the opposite of what sane people know to be the truth–something which wingers love to do. Also conspiracy folks.
So I think we should have a special word for it. This coinage would also stop us from insulting stupid people by equating them with Republicans.
“Sottise” is especially effective when snorted out in the true French manner.
Rampant silliness:
January 12th, 2009 at 2:30 pmhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Paq_fIxPCM
Why wasn’t Joe reminded the United States executed Japanese and German war criminals after World War 2 for waterboarding members of our military . .
So now we are condoning what we executed people for after World War 2 . .
It appears that WE now are the war criminals . .
January 12th, 2009 at 2:33 pmhussein toasterhead Says:
Actually, there are no guys named Abdul anywhere in the world. This is a common misconception…
I’ll tell my friend Abdul you said that, he’ll laugh. At this point in history, it’s kind of like saying nobody has the name “Johnson,” because that really means “son of John.”
January 12th, 2009 at 2:33 pmActually, there are no guys named Abdul anywhere in the world.
Someone should inform Kareem Abdul Jabbar that he doesn’t exist.
January 12th, 2009 at 2:34 pmSlightly off topic but I can’t help but wonder about the people who are actually involved in these techniques. When did self respect disappear from the folks indulging in these acts? Maybe BushCo can bless off and say its cool to use enhanced techniques but why would any sane human being believe it?
I hear a massive chorus of ‘Ve vas chust following odors” in the offing.
January 12th, 2009 at 2:41 pmEasy test – waterboard Scarborough to find out if he assasinated Lincoln.
January 12th, 2009 at 2:42 pmLet’s waterboard Ol’Joe and keep asking did you cave in Lori Klausutis’s head because she was going to out your affair with her over and over
January 12th, 2009 at 2:47 pmYou can point out this fact to wingnuts until you are blue in the face and they will just act as if they didn’t hear you.
January 12th, 2009 at 2:50 pmAs a retired army intelligence officer, who is a combat vet, trained in interrogation techniques, it makes me furious to hear know nothings like Scarborough spout off about subjects of which they have zero knowledge.
Memo to Mr. Scarborough
January 12th, 2009 at 2:55 pm1. Torture does not work. Virtually anyone exposed to techniques such as waterboarding (introduced by the Inquisition) or sleep deprivation (introduced by the KGB and used on US soldiers by the North Koreans) will tell you what they think you want to hear.
2. Then there is the issue of morality. Anyone who believes torture is acceptable, belongs on the side of the terrorists, not our side.
3. Finally, it is a breach of the Geneva Convention and endangers our troops should they be taken prisoner.
What I don’t understand is why anyone watches Morning Joe. Joe Scarborough is a moron.
January 12th, 2009 at 2:56 pmbarfly Says:
Someone should inform Kareem Abdul Jabbar that he doesn’t exist.
January 12th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
________
Oh he exists, he’s just spelling it wrong.
January 12th, 2009 at 2:58 pmHoodathunk Says:
Slightly off topic but I can’t help but wonder about the people who are actually involved in these techniques….
Various levels of sadism seem to be part of a basic psychology — perhaps the ego affirming itself over all other things. A fair number of children of varying ages can be seen to enjoy (often) petty, but still sadistic, actions. Most learn that “that is not how you treat other people.” Some just tuck it away, waiting for an opportunity.
You will also see it in a lot of our ‘humor’ — laughing at someone who is hurt or in pain because of that hurt or pain is sadistic. America’s funniest home videos (et.al.) are RIFE with sadistic humor. Sometimes we call it slapstick — but if you genuinely laugh at someone else getting hurt, that IS sadism. Most people can keep it to that level. So, the seeds and the inclinations are there. A lack of morals opens the person up to doing anything they want. They could even have morals, yet learn to justify their actions (”these are ‘bad guys’, they are less than human, I’m just obeying orders, etc.). thus, they have justification, they have motivation, they have means, and they even have encouragement. No, not too surprising it CAN happen, and not difficult to find people who will do it (and then they learn to love it, as they get their natural high off the endorphines and adrenalin of the torture, and then become addicted — yes, you can become addicted to your bodies own ‘drugs’: thrill junkies are perhaps the most common).
Anyway, I babble on. Must go. Peace.
January 12th, 2009 at 2:58 pmShayne Says:
I’ve actually seen Scarborough verbally abuse Freeland worse than he did today. How this misogynist creep keeps his show is beyond me.
And why people like Freeland continue to go on his show is even more astonishing.
January 12th, 2009 at 2:59 pmJK! YOU’RE NOT REALLY TALKING. YOU’RE YELLING!!! MOST NORMAL CONVERSATIONS USUALLY INVOLVE TWO PARTIES. YOU’VE YET TO RESPOND TO ANY COUNTER, EVER!!! SO, IT AIN’T “TALKING”, IT’S SHOUTING!!!
January 12th, 2009 at 3:06 pmGeez, it’s like communicating with a MORON!!!
I’m so sick of Joe’s bloviation. Let’s make the show into “Mika in the Morning”. Willy is “fair and balanced”.
January 12th, 2009 at 3:07 pmLet Joe drop by without portfolio similar to Tucker.
Bilbo, I believe they go on because they’re paid. I’ll give Freeland credit though, the last time she was on it’s hard to understand how she was not in tears. Just as she didn’t back down today. She is one tough woman.
January 12th, 2009 at 3:09 pmWaterboarding is illegal, the CIA knows it, the FBI knows it, Congress knows it, and the American people know it. It has been said at least 90% of the information gained by torture is useless, so I guess one could argue 10% is useful, but Scarborough’s assertion 70-75% is useful is wildly off the mark.
I found his comments and defense of torture in general and waterboarding in particular offensive. He needs a lesson in what it means to be an American, as do any of the pro-torture crowd.
January 12th, 2009 at 3:09 pmDRxJ, “Like” communicating with a MORON or “actually” communicating with MORON? :)
January 12th, 2009 at 3:10 pmI believe communicating with a moron involves crayons. Where is that darn font?
January 12th, 2009 at 3:13 pmJoe the Scarborough is an idiot. Should we give them birthday cake?
You can’t have a debate with these people.
January 12th, 2009 at 3:21 pmIt’s just embarassing at how really “dumb” Scarborough is! He’s so full of himself, he doesn’t allow any other opinions to be considered, once he’s made up his feeble mind. It would be so nice if MSNBC could see what kind of a big ole fool this guy is, and replace him with a “grownup”! The only salvation with this idiotic show, is when people like Mika’s Dad, put Joe in his place! I’m still rolling on the floor everytime I remember that glorious piece of making hamburger out of Scarborough!
January 12th, 2009 at 3:22 pmIs anyone else bothered that JoeS seems to have intimate knowledge of the interrogation of KSM, the intelligence gathered, and the actions being taken based on this? Either some folks who should be talking with him are, or he’s actively seeking information for which he does not hold the appropriate security clearance. Get him off the air, and in Leavenworth where he belongs!
At worst, his comments indicate sedition, and an attempt to undermine the incoming administration in a traitorous fashion.
January 12th, 2009 at 3:23 pmBlech! Make that “shouldn’t be talking with him”. sorry about that.
January 12th, 2009 at 3:24 pmAnd there is little doubt that he is spot-on considering Joe’s vast experience with interrogation in the CIA and U.S. military, is that right?
January 12th, 2009 at 3:29 pmWhile I believe he is just making sh@t up when he says he has inside knowledge I’m all for him having to stand trial for sedition. :)
January 12th, 2009 at 3:33 pmYou know, I just wonder exactly what it would take for one of these POS’s to get themselves kicked off of their shows. How far do they have to go before their network realizes they’re being used as nothing more than a platform for hate speech and exhorting people to commit heinous crimes?
If Scarborough did a show on the joys of raping babies, would everybody just continue on as if nothing happened? Ann Coulter stated publicly that all Arab-Americans should be put into concentration camps. She still gets on TV. This guy says torture is great. His show is still on the air.
I’m not saying they should be banned by the FCC or something, but good God – at what point does somebody in the network remember their humanity and put a stop to this crap? If profanity can only run unbleeped during late-night hours, then shouldn’t cheerleading mass murder, torture and treason also be? Hardcore porn should be allowed in a given time block before this kind of disgusting exchange is.
January 12th, 2009 at 3:59 pmAnyone remember when Scarborough tore David Schuster a new one [after a debate or the RNC??]
I think they were in a diner; lotsa guests. Scarborough, realizing his party was gonna lose big time, took it out on Schuster, who cowered . .
‘So what’d I say Joe?’ Scarborough proceeded to berate Schuster. It was embarrasing to watch . .
January 12th, 2009 at 4:08 pmAh shit did I miss john Kerry. I have some linguica we could have chewed on while we chatted but between you and I, I think John Kerry is afraid of me…. You might say that the fact John Kerry is a complete and total pussy.
January 12th, 2009 at 4:15 pmoops add an “is”
January 12th, 2009 at 4:17 pmScarborough went on a FoxTV-like rant this morning. Difficult weekend, Joe?
This is Scarborough’s opportunity to clear his name once and for all.
Tie him down, turn on the water, and question him about the death of his aide Lori Klausutis. His answers will be truthful because torture works.
Don Imus, answer your phone. MSNBC’s on the phone.
January 12th, 2009 at 4:23 pmPlease show how with documented evidences by real pyschologists and other experts on the subject
January 12th, 2009 at 4:59 pmThanks
Wow! That is impressive. You must seem like a freak of nature at Republican gatherings when you get these bursts of cognitive reasoning ability.
January 12th, 2009 at 5:05 pmHere’s the clip Aanya is talking about where Zbigniew Brzezinski calls Scarborough “stunningly superficial”.
January 12th, 2009 at 5:07 pmLINK
rddaos Says:
Of course torture works. Duh!
Oh, you got me! Can’t beat that logic.
January 12th, 2009 at 5:10 pmSilliest thing I’ve ever heard: “Scarborough.”
January 12th, 2009 at 5:10 pmAnswers to torture:
1) Honor.
And if the wingnut says ‘we can’t afford honor!” one answers. “That’s what the dishonorable always say.”
2) One of the most effective ways to extract information is to get through his defenses with good treatment. If a fanatic is met with an interlocutor who knows hisculture and understands it, can talk with reason and respect, and make simple rational arguments as to wllhy the information should be shared, it’s been shown to be extremely effective.
It works: why not try it?
Or do you just like the savage methods.
3) Does anybody who’s been in Gitmo for over a year have any actionable intel? Wouldn’t any names, dates, passwords, addresses, and so on be obsolete? Especially once their associates know they’ve been captured?
4) Torturing the right guy usually does not work; torturing the WRONG guy NEVER works. The ‘ticking clock’ excuse works if you know absolutely you have the person who knows–and it’s one guy. And that certainty is always problematic even in theory.
We’re obviously not certain we’ve got a super-select bunch of right guys–we’ve let 250 go. If there is ANY justification to torture, there is NONE if you’re not sure you’ve got the right guy.
5) Torturing and raping a man’s naked children before his eyes is obviously effective. Shouldn’t we be doing that?
January 12th, 2009 at 5:11 pmrddaos Says:
Of course torture works. Duh!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Of COURSE morons regurgitate what they are TOLD to believe. THAT is obvious.
January 12th, 2009 at 5:18 pmpbg Says:
Exactly honor is a gift a country gives itself and wingnuts would deny us that gift. They are cowards
January 12th, 2009 at 5:20 pmOther silly things conservatives have heard:
1) Evolution is both a theory and a fact
2) The Earth is several billion years old
3) Prayer does not cure the sick
4) Our planet is not the center of the universe
All of the above are just silly liberal beliefs.
/sarc off
January 12th, 2009 at 5:27 pmI’m glad to know that Joe won’t mind when I refer to him as “a Pro-Torture Republican” because I think it’s kind of catchy!
January 12th, 2009 at 5:37 pmStill not too clear on the concept of persuasive debate, are ya?
Insisting that something is so, absent all evidence, is usually seen as a pretty weak argument.
Although I see you did add the clincher, “This is no huge complex subject”. I guess that proves it.
January 12th, 2009 at 5:48 pmThan show me the data that shows it works. Shouldn’t be hard. How will you know if Eugene Debs is just telling you shit to get you to stop?
January 12th, 2009 at 5:48 pmHere’s another instance of those “hidden priorities”, dbadass.
I suspect that our conservative friend doesn’t really care what EugeneDebs tells him; he just wants to get him tied up.
January 12th, 2009 at 5:50 pmrddaos:
January 12th, 2009 at 5:59 pmAre you avoiding documentation of this phenomenom? As I understand most miltary psychologists don’t think it works and in fact think that the kinder gentler get to know you and get you to trust me approach yields far more valuable intel. Please just show me some evidence other than you saying it is so. Come on man, convince me.
rddaos Says:
He’ll tell me both. He’ll tell me the truth. He’ll tell me lies to get me to stop. He’ll tell me a lot of things. I’ll sort out what is truth and what is lies through other independent information that will corroborate what is true from what is false.
Um, if you know how to go find out, couldn’t you just skip the part about torturing poor EugeneDebs and just… go find out? Seems like kind of a time-waster getting your rocks off by smacking somebody around when there’s work to be done.
.
rddaos Says:
This is no huge complex subject.
Agreed. Only evil scumbags torture.
January 12th, 2009 at 6:02 pmrddaos Says:
EugeneDebs if I had you tied up I could easily torture you to get you to tell me what you know. This is no huge complex subject.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And if morons like YOU had a brain you might be able to THINK. Since neither of these IFs…IS. YOU. HAVE. NO. POINT.
January 12th, 2009 at 6:03 pmrddaos Says:
Or when you TRIED to tie me up I would just beat you to a bloody pulp. THAT sounds more likely to me. I however having a sense of decency would not torture you when you were helpless. You are a coward. You dont CARE if torture works or not. You just like the idea of torturing people. I would guess your sould said it was so out of there about age six when you tortured your first small animal to death. Those of us that still HAVE our souls and arent bedwetting cowards would like to KEEP our souls. Our sense of decency. Better find someone to explain to you what that is. Keep hiding under mommys bed begging people to keep you safe. Even if they are just doing things that dont actually KEEP you safe just make you FEEL safer to you that is worth torturing people. Would we ONLY torture those who had been found GUILTY after a trial or anyone we SUSPECTED might know something MAYBE that MIGHT happen? You are disgusting. Appolgies for torture make my skin crawl. It is that pesky decency thing again. I guess you dont have that burden.
January 12th, 2009 at 6:09 pmconsidering that this is “no huge complex subject”, you’d think someone with a few functioning neurons could show the evidence by now. Oh and please don’t run off to some clearly biased I watched one too many episodes of 24 type sites to try and come up with something that you wanna pawn off as legit…
January 12th, 2009 at 6:14 pmYou’ve only got 24 hours, Jack! How are you going to travel down all those blind alleys and rule them out before the world explodes?!?!?
January 12th, 2009 at 6:27 pmWhen the next white person gets captured and torture what will these b@stards have to say.
January 12th, 2009 at 6:52 pmSure torture works.
That is, torture works if your sole aim is to hurt, punish and/or humiliate someone.
Otherwise, it’s completely useless.
January 12th, 2009 at 6:53 pmThis is not the first time that he has been so acidic in his comments–he has been doing that ever since the election. I think he tears after Freeland because she went to Harvard and he has contempt for anyone who went to the Ivy league–he refers to them as “elites”. He does the same thing when he talks about Obama. Joe “when I was in Congress” Scarborough is a very insecure, stunningly ignorant and petty man.
For weeks he has been trying to burnish Bush’s legacy in the White House and Joe is trying to be a revisionist when it comes to history–Joe, never lets the facts get in his way.
I find him to be the ultimate phoney–he scorns the very ones he calls the “elites”–yet why is he up on Nantucket in the summer, living on the Upper West Side of Manhattan when he is in New York or in Georgetown when he works out of DC? Where I come from, people who behave and talk that way are called phoneys and frauds.
January 12th, 2009 at 7:02 pmThe only way scum like Joe gets away with this truly psychopathic behavior (again!) is because he has the backing of his bosses. Period!
We are back to the “trouble with enablers” thing again. Joe and all the US network sponsors of hate (Fox network, Clear Channel network and yes, MSNBC with JOE) will NEVER stop their outrageous temper tantrums UNTIL their bosses are held accountable.
Rail against these hate mongers until you are blue in the face. Joe and his fellow affiliated scum are just a mouthpiece with a name and everyone knows their parental units badly botched their toilet training. Until network bosses are held accountable, there will be another mindless Christian right conservative drone with a the same tired & morally bankrupt ideology but with a new hairdo and name to take his/her place.
One last thing, Joes’ rant and the bosses that let him get away with it are potentially throwing our soldiers under the buss all in the name of ratings and money. Under BushCo, Tragically, America does torture. Obviously, Joe and his bosses don’t give a tinkers damn if our troops are tortured too.
It makes me sick.
January 12th, 2009 at 7:10 pmLipless Joe steps on his own manhood yet again.
Say it ain’t so, Joe.
Who watches that idiot, anyway?
January 12th, 2009 at 7:23 pmSat, did rddaos ever show up with any evidence that what he says is true?
I mean, because his insistence that it’s true?
You’d think that someone who was that committed to corroborating information he gets through torture would be able to use some of those resources to corroborate that torture works.
No?
January 12th, 2009 at 7:24 pmHi ralph
January 12th, 2009 at 7:38 pmNo rddaos just split. Do you think that we should point out yet again that if rddaos is correct than John McCain must have told the truth or do you think that will just tweak em out some more?
dbadass Says:
Nah. Facts just confuse the Limborg hivemind. They are so unused to them
January 12th, 2009 at 7:52 pmI wonder if Keith will have anything to say about Joe tonight.
January 12th, 2009 at 8:26 pmI was Fred from Weehawken today. I ripped dickhead a new one.
January 12th, 2009 at 9:12 pmMorning Joe is more and more becoming Morning Hannity; he’s become more of a shrill. He constantly whines ever since this last election GOP loss. He’s a bitter little man, resisting the failures of his ideology.
January 12th, 2009 at 10:48 pmWhen you have a female sidekick and you appear like a drama queen more that any female or any of your guests; you got issues.
Idea here, go join Hannity, you’re at the bottom rung. You are annoying and inaffective lately. Either buck up or slowly slither away and move to Fox. You unhappiness is a reflection of your personal failures in life. Live with it. You’re coming across as a petty, whining cartoon.
Hi Hippie Crusher.
January 12th, 2009 at 11:11 pmI am thinking the term ‘pwned” will soon be needed…
HippieLicker
You are a joke. You cannot show that NOT torturing people weakens us in any way. Nor that it wont have much WORSE consequences down the road as OUR soldiers are tortured when we again fight a civilized nation. As for your wiretapping delusion it is completely logic free. Either they know what to wiretap or they dont. If they dont then not having a warrant isnt the problem and if they DO then getting one isnt a problem. In fact there just isnt a problem with getting a darn warrant unless you are a Fascist that just hates the Fourth amendment on principle.
Your next paragraph shows you are indeed a fascist. Yeah who needs freedoms. If police arrest people they are obviously guilty why even have a trial. See those rights arent for CRIMINALS as they are NOT criminals until 12 people say they are guilty. The presumption of innocence is a bedrock of jurisprudence without it there is no semblance of a fair trial OR justice. Why dont you cough up the PROOF that tens of thousands of guilty people have been set free and comitted other crimes. Oh you cant? Imagine my surpise. Thinge dont become true just because you SAY they are.
You say the President is putting the Constitution above our safety? Show your work. Your sayso isnt enough PROVE it or shove it. The Constitution is the BEDROCK of our country. The President takes an oath NOT to protect you bedwetters cowardly hiding under your mommys bed and whining that you want Big Brother to save you from the scary turban guys but to PROTECT THE CONSTITUTION. You are an embarassment to real Americans everywhere snivelling that you want your freedoms taken away so you can be safe. Man UP for Gods sake.
The rest of your post is more of the same. Cowardly baseless assertions and paranoid idiocy. A Girl Scout would be ashamed to whine and snivel so piteously and with such cowardice. Feel free to hide under your mommys bed but leave my freedoms and right alone. Thank GOD cowards like you dont get to make these decisions.
January 12th, 2009 at 11:27 pmF uckin’ A!
The Eagles Man!
Hell Yeah!!!
Is that the appropriate response?
January 12th, 2009 at 11:27 pmHippie_crusher Says:
Owned.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I dont know what is more pathetic HippyLicker your cowardice, your ignorance or your bullet proof delusions. You get crushed more than the ice in a Sno-Cone machine
January 12th, 2009 at 11:29 pmHippieLicker
Eugenedebs…the most miserable person on the PLANET.
Cheer up:)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Trying to read my mind again? You should be half so happy as I am. HippyLicker the most ignorant person on the Planet. Adult education. Look into it.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:06 amWow, now I know what Alice felt like. I think I’ve fallen down a rabbit hole. Scarborough trying to speak rationally with a theoretician is a waste of time.
1. Immoral- Yes torture ia immoral. War is immoral, what’s your point? That we stop warring? Yeah, that’ll work.
2. Torture doesn’t work- Really? Tell that to all of these clowns who have given up their brothers-in-arms after another failed torture session. I wish the Bush administration could fail so well.
3. Torture information is bad- Tell that to Hassan, Zarqawi and the 100’s of Al Qaeda leaders we have found and killed based on Khalid Sheik Mohammed’s information gleaned from waterboarding.
I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again. Sun Tzu, Machiavelli, Von Clausewitz and Musashi all say it has it’s place. They are the finest military minds in history, you are not. I defer to the former and what I see being successful at present.
I saw the interrogator who breaks these guys without torture. It’s interesting that he has never broken a high level operative. Not saying he couldn’t, I just wonder. I am glad that we can break some of these guys easily. I’m not interested in handcuffing our boys when they need to break a tough guy. Rendition, it’s what’s for whiners. Send them overseas where the tender sensibilities of the American crazy left won’t be so injured.
January 13th, 2009 at 8:43 amrddaos:
January 13th, 2009 at 8:47 amAre we going to have to do this again. If it so obviously works than it should be easy to document this right? Now since it works so well can I also assume Mr McCain told the truth?
I gues dbada$$ is a ddumba$$. It is well documented how well Mohammed broke after waterboarding and how much actionable intelligence we received from it. What are you blind, deaf as well as dumb? As far as McCain, you prove your own point. Torture broke him, he even admitted that during this last campaign. You need to read, listen and learn more. Talk and post less.
January 13th, 2009 at 9:27 amIs it not also well documented that most professional interogators feel otherwise? So can we assume that Mr McCain’s confessions where truthful? I am leary of what we have been told about the alledged info which was obtained. Either way are you suggesting that torture should be legal or illegal?
Oh and you guess wrong….
January 13th, 2009 at 10:01 amAnthony Look Says:
Morning Joe is more and more becoming Morning Hannity
That reminds me, how come these guys all got those big, puffy round heads? Limbaugh too. I’ve never seen such jowly cheeky people with so much fat above the collar as these people. Sometimes I can’t even tell them apart. At least O’Reilly’s jowls have slid down enough around his neck that I can identify him. But where do they get such creatures from?
.
Hippie_crusher Says:
President-elect Barack Obama’s new head of the Office of Legal Counsel…
Wow. For a second there I thought you actually took the time to think through an issue and typed out a reasoned opinion. I was really impressed with you HC. But then I googled a chunk of your text and found out that you’re just copy/pasting editorials from NewsMax, unsourced. So that’s actually a new low for you. Way to go.
I’m not even going to discuss the points of the article that you plagiarized, since the author is absent.
Just face it: you don’t have what it takes to participate here, and you’re obviously starting to realize it.
January 13th, 2009 at 10:18 amI watched him spew his crap thin morning while I was getting ready for work and it was everything I could do not to throw something at the tv. He thinks he knows more about everything than anyone else does. He barely let anyone say a word. He kept cutting Freeland off every time she opened her mouth. Grrr.
January 13th, 2009 at 11:06 amrddaos Says:
If you need formal paperwork to convince you that severe physical pain or threat of it can be used to coerce people into doing things they wouldnt otherwise do, then you’re a simple-minded fool, to put it lightly.
You know, your argument is barely above a kindergarten level understanding of the subject. So… congratulations on your typing skills, kid.
Yes, you can get someone to do something you want through threat of harm. In fact, they’ll tell you anything you want them to tell you. But they won’t be able to give you information they don’t know you want. And once they know what you want to be told, they’ll tell you that. But they aren’t likely to tell you information that you don’t already know within a given subject area.
That’s because you’re just as likely to disbelieve the truth as any falsehood. The truth is rarely the most plausible story, and the most plausible story is most likely to get you to stop, so that’s what you’ll get.
Here’s an example to chew on: John McCain was tortured for the names of the other members of his unit. He says he gave his captors false information, by telling them the names of the Steelers* defensive line. Torture was ineffective in eliciting accurate information in this instance.
* Yeah yeah I know, sometimes he says Packers, but he’s old. Let’s give him the benefit of the doubt just for this example.
January 13th, 2009 at 11:19 amAs a scientist with a particular interest in behavior, the point I wish to make is a simple one. Clearly a bunch of nonexperts simply saying it works, it doesn’t work is pointless. If this is so obvious as some would have us believe than where are the studies to support the notion? Should we not look to the experts on the subject and the actual data?
January 13th, 2009 at 12:16 pmElBruce,
The point of torture is not to get people to tell you what they don’t know. So that’s a dumb argument.
I think you read my post wrong. Or maybe I was a little unclear.
No, your goal is to get the torturee to tell you what you don’t know. Their goal is to get you to stop. Therefore, it’s much more important to tell you what you want to hear than the truth. For example, let’s say you’re torturing a cab driver who you think is a terrorist. If he tells you he’s a cab driver, you’ll just torture him some more, because of course that’s what the terrorist would say. So he’ll tell you he’s a terrorist. Congratulations, you just caught a terrorist! Now he’s got to make up a bunch of stuff to keep you satisfied or you’ll start torturing him again. Because he doesn’t know anything about terrorism to begin with, all of what he tells you will be false.
You know, a lot of libs throw around the word “hate” to talk about why wingnuts do what they do. But I just figured out, it’s not hate. You don’t hate people. It’s fear. The fact is, you are afraid. And you’re so afraid that you’ll hurt anybody just to feel a little safer. You don’t care if what you do really works, you just want it to make you feel a little less scared. This once-great nation has been managed by cowards like yourself for far too long. You will not be allowed to hurt people any more, and those who have will face justice for their crimes against decency, humanity, and reason.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:40 pmrddaos Says:
Again you’ve failed to refute my point. Any effective torturing session involves VERIFICATION of what the torture victim says. Your misguided fixation with the idea of torturing people to get them to tell you unverifiable stuff doesn’t lend you credibility.
If you had independent sources of verification, you wouldn’t need to torture people. Admit it: you just want to get your little neocon rocks off.
January 13th, 2009 at 3:34 pmrddaos Says:
Now the both of you – back to sticking your fingers in your ears, scrunching your eyes tightly shut and going lalalalala torture doesnt work lalalalala torture doesnt work
You’re the one who is declining to provide evidence of your claims. You’ve also ignored the evidence provided by others to counter your claims. Therefore, it is you who are being willfully ignorant. No wait, I believe the polite phrase is “intellectually incurious.” Yeah, that’s it.
January 13th, 2009 at 3:36 pmrddaos Says:
Because you SAID SO while refusing to back that up with anything but your repitition of your premise despite repeated requests for some evidence. You wingnuts really are dumb enough to think things become true if you repeat them enough times. Well I say torture DOESNT WORK no matter how often you incredibly stupid morons say it does
January 13th, 2009 at 4:12 pmdrew3rd Says:
What is well documented you ignorant loaf is that he gave us FALSE INFORMATION. Just how stupid are you anyway? Just like John McCain did to HIS torturers. Just like thousands did to the torturers at the Spanish inquisitions. You are a moron. Things dont become true just because you WISH they were. You just dont care if torture works or not. You are a coward and it makes you FEEL better. It doesnt matter to you if you ARE safer as long as while you bedwetters cower under your beds you can think about brown people everywhere being hurt. That it is antithetical to our values as a nation also means nothing to you. That it pretty much assures that OUR soldiers will be tortured next time we fight a war against a civilized nation means nothing to you since in your self centered cowardice YOU feeling safer is all that matters. You are pitiful
January 13th, 2009 at 4:18 pmElBruce Says:
Good catch ElBruce so hippyLicker is not only a moron but a plagiarist as well. Why would I be suprised? Wingnuts and trolls have no shame.
January 13th, 2009 at 4:20 pmrddaos Says:
Since you are stupider than the hair on a barbershop floor your opinion about who is simpleminded means less than the price of ping pong balls in Guatemala. You are a low class moron
January 13th, 2009 at 4:21 pmrddaos Says:
And you can just keep repeating yourself like the moron you are but you NEVER had any credibility so it only makes YOU look like a demented Myna bird. Torture is evil. It makes people talk but we have ZERO evidence that they wont just tell us what they think we WANT to hear. Just like McCain did. My GOD you are ignorant.
January 13th, 2009 at 4:24 pmYou are a moron raddos if we can verify and corroborate it we can find it out without torture. My GOD you are ignorant. What about the innocent people we torture. I assume we wont be torturing these people AFTER a trial. So we SUSPECT a guy is a terrorist but he just phoned a wrong number or his brother in law is a bad guy. He doesnt know anything and is tortured. JUST LIKE MAHER ARAR. You have no decency, no brainpan and if the world was run by ignorant punks like you there would be no civilization
January 13th, 2009 at 4:29 pmrddaos Says:
You dont have a POINT MORON. You have an OPINION. One you repeat endlessly and have ZERO EVIDENCE to back up. That is NOT A POINT. It is an ASSERTION, they are not the same thing.
January 13th, 2009 at 4:30 pmrddaos Says:
My independent source is tell me where you’ve been hiding the bomb-making materials. If he says under his grandmother’s mattress, you verify by lifting up the damn mattress. Try to keep up with me, I know it’s complicated.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
So you need to torture someone because you are too STUPID to think to look at relatives houses to find bomb making material AFTER you capture a bomb maker? Is that a joke? Are you really a left winger trying to make rightwingers look like MORONS? Are you REALLY making the argument that we need to torture people to make up for stupidity and incompetence?
January 13th, 2009 at 4:33 pmrddaos Says:
While YOU go back to repeating your premise endlessly without even TRYING to back it up like the moronic propaganda parrot you are.
January 13th, 2009 at 4:35 pmrddaos Says:
My independent source is tell me where you’ve been hiding the bomb-making materials. If he says under his grandmother’s mattress, you verify by lifting up the damn mattress. Try to keep up with me, I know it’s complicated.
I’m out on the street using criminal investigation procedures while you’re in there playing creepy fascist S&M freak. I already searched his family’s house and am on to the next stage of the investigation. You’re still playing with some poor SOB’s nuts and giggling. Also, the media broke the story that you’re in there torturing people and, 12 more people joined Al-Qaeda this morning because of it. Thanks so much for all your help.
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rddaos Says:
It’s not my job to show you proof that extreme pain can be used to force people into doing things they would rather not do.
Oh sure, you can make him stand with his arms out on a crate if you want. That’s not the same thing as getting useful information that you don’t already have.
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rddaos Says:
On the other hand, ten seconds of excruciating pain would get the same information out of him.
Ten seconds? OK, now it turns out you don’t even know how to torture people. Or are you doing some kind of 80’s torture montage in that ten seconds? I at least assumed that you knew what you were talking about at least enough to know how the process of torture goes. But I guess that’s what I get for misunderestimating a fascist.
January 13th, 2009 at 4:54 pmOkay rddaos:
So lets say you get done with your little torture experiment and it turns out that those other nontorture based sources prove the innocents and falsehood of the initial info gathered from the torture. Do you not now have a major moral problem?
I still think it odd that we don’t want to look at real research on the subject. Is it possible may not like what we find? I calin no specific expertise on the subject but my understanding from what I have read is that those who do are sold on its “obvious” effectiveness.
January 13th, 2009 at 5:18 pmwell apparantly it is my job to force you to examine that which you wish to claim is obvious
http://explore.georgetown.edu/news/?ID=20647
January 13th, 2009 at 5:29 pmobviously 196 has some typos. Most important the failure to include the word “not” in front of the word “sold”
January 13th, 2009 at 5:37 pmrddaos Says:
No its your JOB to regurgitate what you were TOLD to believe like the demented myna bird you are. You DONT give any evidence much less proof because you CANT. You are ignorant and think just repeating your OPINION will eventually make it true. It only shows how stupid you are and nothing else
January 13th, 2009 at 7:23 pmdbadass Says:
Of COURSE he doesnt have any moral problems between his ignorance and his lack of decency he doesnt even RECOGNIZE morality. It isnt on his radar. The entire CONCEPT is foriegn to him.
January 13th, 2009 at 7:26 pmI generally like Scarborough although he is wrong on most issues. But I watched this and it can only be described as embarrassing. He dominated the conversation, mocked any disagreement and basically refused to let Freeland even try to make a point. I am always enraged by the conservative habit of refusing to allow any middle ground between torture and pampering. By the time they returned from commercial, Freeland was gone. She has been a frequent contributor to the show in the past; it will be interesting to see when she is back.
January 14th, 2009 at 9:11 am