With New Season Of 24, Right Wing Falls In Love With Torture All Over Again
With New Season Of 24, Right Wing Falls In Love With Torture All Over Again
The new season of Fox’s popular terrorism drama ‘24′ debuted Sunday night with a special two-hour episode. The season opened with the show’s main character, Jack Bauer, testifying before a Senate committee. Asked by the committee if he had engaged in torture while interrogating suspected terrorists, Bauer delivered a dramatic defense of torture:
BAUER: When I am activated, when I am brought into a situation, there is a reason and that reason is to complete the objectives of my mission at all costs. [...]
For a combat soldier the difference between success and failure is your ability to adapt to your enemy. The people that I deal with, they don’t care about your rules. … In answer to your question, am I above the law? No, sir. I am more than willing to be judged by the people you claim to represent. I will let them decide what price I should pay. Now please do not sit there with that smug look on your face and expect me to regret the decisions that I have made because, sir, the truth is I don’t.
Bauer’s fictional defense of torture and his fictional claims of its effectiveness are having very real consequences. Over the last two days, right-wing commentators have cheered Bauer’s belligerent Senate testimony, wondering how Congress could be so ungrateful to a torture advocate like Bauer. Often their commentary has been directed at critics of the Bush administration’s torture policies and suggests that the “average person” would approve of Bauer’s conduct. Watch a compilation:
The right wing’s love affair with Bauer’s use of torture is rooted in fantasy. The so-called “ticking time bomb” scenarios that Bauer often finds himself in and that conservatives cite as instances where torture should be allowed rarely, if ever, occur. Further, where torture has been used, it almost certainly results in the extraction of unreliable or inaccurate information. The “average person” is decidedly against the use of such techniques.
Still, the show is closely watched by American service men and women around the world. At Guantanamo Bay, in particular, the show was extremely popular; a former Guantanamo JAG explained, it “gave people a lot of ideas.” Brigadier General Patrick Finnegan at West Point even traveled to meet with the show’s creator and complained that the show was “promoting illegal behavior” among military officials.
If right wingers see Bauer as an example of how to prosecute the war on terror, they might be disheartened to learn that even the man that plays Bauer, actor Keifer Sutherland, doesn’t see his character’s torture techniques as effective in real life. “You torture someone and they’ll basically tell you exactly what you want to hear, whether it’s true or not, if you put someone in enough pain,” Sutherland said last year.
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Since the rushpublicans can’t tell from fiction from fact, this story makes perfect sense.
January 13th, 2009 at 12:01 pmKeifer Sutherland, doesn’t see his character’s torture techniques as effective in real life. “You torture someone and they’ll basically tell you exactly what you want to hear, whether it’s true or not, if you put someone in enough pain,” Sutherland said last year.
It’s too bad he doesn’t see his role in the real life drama and refuse to participate in “24″.
January 13th, 2009 at 12:03 pm“…the man that plays Bauer, actor Keifer Sutherland,”
Morally and spiritually bankrupt.
January 13th, 2009 at 12:06 pm“actor Keifer Sutherland, doesn’t see his character’s torture techniques as effective in real life. “You torture someone and they’ll basically tell you exactly what you want to hear, whether it’s true or not, if you put someone in enough pain,” Sutherland said last year.”
WTF? So its all about the money and fame? No wonder we have this crap on the tube. Hey America, I don’t believe this stuff but as long as someone pays me mega bucks I’m good with it.
I need a new hat, I already threw up in my last one.
January 13th, 2009 at 12:06 pmHow many people voted for McInsane? About 50 Million?
That’s how many people we have who are sick in the head, and they don’t know it.
January 13th, 2009 at 12:09 pmWingnuttia’s infatuation with Jack Bauer is camp.
January 13th, 2009 at 12:09 pmThis is porn season for right-wingers, there is no stopping JK’s and Tim Vaculik’s vigorous masturbatory streak. TWO HOURS though? They must have pulled a muscle…
January 13th, 2009 at 12:10 pmOne potential storyline that develops is that the information obtained under torture is wrong and makes things worse when they act on the false information.
I hope that truly does come to pass, because I’d like to see how the Right Wing responds to that fictional situation.
January 13th, 2009 at 12:12 pmBut… but… it’s only a TV show! It’s not like libs are going around cheering on the decisions made by President “Jed” Bartlet during his incredibly successful term, and using those to argue for/against real policies. That would be stupid!
But, fine. If they want to use Bauer’s defense in real life, then they also have to include this part:
“In answer to your question, am I above the law? No, sir. I am more than willing to be judged by the people you claim to represent. I will let them decide what price I should pay.”
If you break the law, and you think it’s important enough to do so, then quit whining about the jail time you just incurred. If you’re too much of a wimp to do the time for it, then you got no business torturing people in the first place.
January 13th, 2009 at 12:15 pmDidn’t Dild O’Rally use a clip from “24″ in his brief “torture debate” w/ Hutchins the other day? Jeebus… these idiots think a television show on Fox is a sound basis for government policy on torture.
January 13th, 2009 at 12:20 pmI didn’t see the entire, but what I saw was poorly written and poorly acted. Maybe it’s me, but it was corny and fake angry-desperate. Blech.
January 13th, 2009 at 12:21 pmGots to give ole Jack credit for cojones. Standing up to a Senate committee and saying, yeah I’m a thug and the law doesn’t mean squat to me. If studying under guys like Pol Pot, Marcos, Hussein, Noriega, Pinochet so I can learn how to torture with the bosses blessing, well then, go ahead and shoot me.
Fade to black with sound of a gunshot.
January 13th, 2009 at 12:21 pmSo quit “24″ then, Kiefer Sutherland. You’ve gotten enough money/prestige from the show by now, right? Put all that $$$ where your mouth is. Never happen, will it, Mr. Sutherland.
PR lip service from a face dancer (h/t scifi author Frank Herbert).
January 13th, 2009 at 12:21 pmIf right wingers see Bauer as an example of how to prosecute the war on terror, they might be disheartened to learn that even the man that plays Bauer, actor Keifer Sutherland, doesn’t see his character’s torture techniques as effective in real life.
“Actor” might be a little strong . . .
Another irony is that in the previous season, Jack tortured his own brother for information — which turned out to be deliberately false. Jack apparently never figured that out.
January 13th, 2009 at 12:21 pmShoot your TV.
January 13th, 2009 at 12:23 pmThe series got renewed for another season. That proves the value of torture.
January 13th, 2009 at 12:24 pmReality is a slippery concept for the insulated right-wingers…
January 13th, 2009 at 12:29 pmOh great, what’s next? A new cooking show based on the Dahmer best selling cookbook “Wokking with your Neighbor?”
January 13th, 2009 at 12:29 pm… right-wing commentators have cheered Bauer’s belligerent Senate testimony…
the same genre of folks who thought sarah palin was a legitimate candidate for the presidency of the USA…
all idjits, all of ‘em.
January 13th, 2009 at 12:33 pmFantasy. Like building Sand Castles of Democracy in Iraq.
January 13th, 2009 at 12:35 pmHoodathunk, I thought Dahmer’s book was called “Dead Men Wokking”. (One thing I really like about TP is the opportunity to “leap snark”.)
January 13th, 2009 at 12:36 pmSince the GOP rightwingnuts can’t tell the difference between fiction and fact, why haven’t they contacted law enforcement about the bomb throwing terrorist running wild in the Southwest?
Could it be because they side with that terrorist and hate roadrunners?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?
January 13th, 2009 at 12:37 pmToo many Faux News pundits mistake TV fiction for reality and, unfortunately, the audience of “24″ coupled with the audience of Faux news keep this kind of fictional propaganda front and center.
January 13th, 2009 at 12:38 pmThe right wingers should watch Star Wars. Darth Vader tortured Princess Leia and she gave them the wrong location for the rebel base.
January 13th, 2009 at 12:39 pmI really have trouble wrapping my head around the fact that so many Americans are so God-damned STUPID.
Even after 8 years with the Head Moron presiding.
Unbelievable….just unbelievable.
January 13th, 2009 at 12:42 pmFirst, it must be repeated that this is FICTION.
But the part that the 24 worshipers don’t get is the part where Jack says he is not above the law and is ready to be judged and to face the repercussions of breaking the law.
That’s the way it should be. He doesn’t argue that torture should be legal – just that there might be situations where the law will be broken and if that’s the case, torturers can and should accept the resulting judgement. The script also points out how rare and exceptional these situations are.
January 13th, 2009 at 12:42 pmok, ok, I’m a witch! Please, I can’t swim.
Way off topic, my fax machine just puked up a missive that I have been selected to be included in the Presidential Who’s Who Among Business and Professional Acheivers.
Anyone know where I can buy hats in bulk? Cheap?
January 13th, 2009 at 12:45 pmSo let me get this straight. Jack Bower is not a real person? The next thing you will be telling me is that Methuselah did not live to be 969 and that Indo-European languages did not originate at the Tower of Babel and that African slaves are not the descendants of Ham. The center, captain, it cannot hold.
January 13th, 2009 at 12:45 pmHow pathetic is it that the right-wing points to a FICTIONAL show to justify things that are happening in REALITY? Why aren’t they called on that distinction again and again and again?
It’s soooo stupid…
January 13th, 2009 at 12:47 pm“…the man that plays Bauer, actor Keifer Sutherland,”
Morally and spiritually bankrupt.
Okay, ‘24′ is a television show and should not be confused with reality…
Similarly, Kiefer Sutherland is an actor and should not be confused with his character…
Just ’cause some crazies on the right think that this fictional television show justifies their belief in torture is no reason for the left to go crazy and blame that torture on a fictional character’s portrayal.
Let’s not get distracted, torture is a reality and it is that reality that should inflame us, it’s that reality that has left our entire nation morally and spiritually bankrupt.
January 13th, 2009 at 12:50 pmDo you mean Jack Bauer is real? I thought he was a fictional character. I guess I’m the real idiot.
This is just a TV show, and a pretty bad one at that that glorifies torture (which isn’t very glorious). It’s an American TV show, after all, and a Fox TV show, so what do you expect?
It was on hiatus for a long time, and if it had stayed on hiatus, I wouldn’t have minded.
January 13th, 2009 at 12:52 pmPseudonym Says:
First, it must be repeated that this is FICTION.
**********************
Fiction is in the eye of the beholder. Did you miss the part about how its popular with the boys down in Gitmo? “Gave a lot of people ideas”?
I hope Ron White will understand but I wonder how many bean bags there are in Gitmo. I hear Cheetos are real popular.
January 13th, 2009 at 12:57 pmSorry, belac, but if Sutherland agrees to play a morally bankrupt character in a repeating series while publically saying he disagrees with the basic concept of the series…sounds like a quack to me.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:00 pmnot positive this list is up-to-date, but the awards were plenty during the initial years, dwindling since, and none after 04…
http://www.geocities.com/twentyfour_fox/awards.html
maybe that’s what is needed – quit rewarding bad behavior.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:01 pmIf I agree to play a stalker or a neo-nazi in a play (both roles I have performed) am I responsible for someone confusing and distorting the message of those plays to justify their own actions?
It’s called acting- part of it is challenging the audience to think and reach their own conclusions… it seems that ‘24′ has presented the message that torture leads to false information (I’ve never watched the show but gummitch indicates that Jack’s brother intentionally misled him under torture) but the right wing refuses to hear that message when presented by actual interrogators… why should we hold an entertainer to a higher standard?
January 13th, 2009 at 1:08 pmI can proudly say that I have never watched 24 and from the sound of it I’m not missing much. How ironic that a show produced by FUX would glorify torture and violence and yet many of the pundits who show up on their so called news programs will rail against other shows on TV for their graphic violence or sex scenes.
What all of these so called armchair ‘patriots’ who support water boarding seem to forget is that Japanese guards who used water boarding on our soldiers during WWII were found guilty of torture and hung. So once again the hypocrisy of the right rears it’s ugly yet consistent head.
As long as Americans are taught and continue to believe that we are a righteous country that can do no wrong, these atrocities will continue to be committed by those in our government and military.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:08 pmbelac, I have agreed to play less than savory roles myself but only when I agree with the basic message of the production. Someone has to play the bad guy. Problem here is Jack Bauer is the good guy, espousing things Sutherland doesn’t agree with.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:14 pmWhen I am activated, when I am brought into a situation
By God, presumably; but in any case, not by anyone capable of making mistakes nor subject to oversight.
No, sir. I am more than willing to be judged by the people you claim to represent.
As long as they’ve been properly screened, of course. Pay no attention to those yokels in the Free Speech Zones.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:14 pmbelac Says:
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One could say ‘24′ is government propaganda to persuade simple minded Americans that torture is a-okay. What people fail to realize is that we as a nation (world) are being conditioned and desensitized to war, murder, torture, genocide, rape etc, etc…with all of the events happening all over the world and with all of the garbage being sold as entertainment on TV and movie screens.
Perhaps those who control the world governments hope that someday a generation of humans will come to rise void of all emotions and justice and I wouldn’t doubt that the shows on TV and the dumbing down of our children through our education system are all stepping stones for such a generation.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:19 pmKeifer Sutherland and the rest of the cast and crew should resign to make the personal statement that in America, as in the rest of the civilized world, torture is unacceptable under any circumstances.
By participating in this show, the actors, writers, directors and crew are making the case that torture is acceptable. They are helping turn the clock of humanitarian development back to the Spanish Inquisition.
Keifer, If one person is tortured because of the encouragement and support of your show, is it worth your paycheck?
January 13th, 2009 at 1:19 pmHaving never watched this show but following the dialogue around it, it seems to be another typical LIQ ‘reality’ show, like Pro wrestlin’ or the rusher radio show or the billo rant-o-rama or ……..
You get the picture.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:21 pmHoodathunk-
January 13th, 2009 at 1:22 pmI wouldn’t call him a ‘good guy,’ that plays into the Comic Book mentality of the right that is the problem here.
Jack Bauer is the main character.
Dexter is the main character… he does things that I guarantee Michael C. Hall doesn’t agree with, should Michael C. Hall leave the show?
Hamlet is the main character… he does things that I don’t agree with at all and espouses things that I think are stupid and destructive, yet I would jump at the chance to play him.
We have to divorce our outrage at the ACTUAL torture from the FICTIONAL representation that the right-wing is using to justify it or we are playing right into their hands and agreeing that fictional situations or characterizations are a justification for actual actions.
Hoodathunk Says:
——————————————————————————–
ok, ok, I’m a witch! Please, I can’t swim.
Way off topic, my fax machine just puked up a missive that I have been selected to be included in the Presidential Who’s Who Among Business and Professional Acheivers.
Anyone know where I can buy hats in bulk? Cheap?
Heh. My company received one of those this morning as well. It made it’s way to the paper recycling box.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:24 pmAlready done. In 24: Redemption, Jack Bauer is the one being tortured, and guess what? He gives false info, leading to his escape from capture…
January 13th, 2009 at 1:27 pmAs is common among the right, nobody over there ever wants to talk about Jack Bauer being a heroin junkie. You know? Like no one ever calls Rush Limpd!ck out on his pill popping or O’Reilly on his hooker & blow fetish. If these things were more a part of the conversation, we’d all have a better understanding of their appreciation for violence towards the weak and defenseless.
daddy/abandonment issues + drug addictions = violence/sexual promiscuity
DUH!!!
January 13th, 2009 at 1:30 pmMaybe the script will change for the better. I can’t imagine Janeane Garofalo would agree to start acting in the series if the script did not contain episodes demonstrating torture is wrong, etc
January 13th, 2009 at 1:30 pmUncle Fester~
January 13th, 2009 at 1:31 pmI agree that the show is propagandistic and sounds stupid, but then so was ‘Rambo’ and ‘Red Dawn.’
The problem is that when we are outraged at Kiefer Sutherland for even daring to play Jack Bauer we lend our support to the right-wing delusion that ‘24′ can be a pattern for foreign policy.
‘24′ is a television show, Kiefer Sutherland is an actor… I don’t want to leave national policy questions like torture to actors and television shows and when he right wing uses ‘24′ as a justification for torture we need to remind them that it is fiction and that the reality of torture is the EXACT opposite not ask Kiefer Sutherland to quit his job because some Americans are too immature to separate fantasy from reality.
Sorry belac but I don’t have to divorce my outrage. Maybe you can but fictional representation of evil as acceptable ain’t in my lexicon nor will it ever be. You see, I agree with Briseadh na Faire. Even fictional portrayal of evil as good is not theater, its propaganda.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:31 pmKiefer’s Canadian. Donald Sutherland is Canadian, and his grandfather was governor of Saskatchewan, the first socialist governor of Saskatchewan, and (according to imdb, considered the father of Canada’s public health system.
He’s under no obligation to clean up our act for us. He wouldn’t even if he were an American actor, He’s certainly not to blame for going on another country’s TV and epitomizing what’s wrong with American political psychology.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:34 pmI heard that the writers were toning down the torture thingy this season. And Keifer Sutherland was on Letterman this week talking about how many years he’d been out of work when he was offered 24. Perhaps he’s feeling really guilty.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:34 pmExactly pbg… the shame is that ‘24′ is considered politically relevant or prescient at all, not that it’s actors and writers don’t quit in protest over the right-wings perversion of their message.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:38 pmI wonder how the right would react if say NBC had a fictional TV series based on religious zealots and war mongering mad men who plot and stage events to take over the government of a fictional country and proceed to destroy that country while a fictional cable news programs with zombie like anchors cheer on and support their every move until they are all arrested, tried for treason, war profiteering and war crimes and are all hung from the lamp posts around 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue?
January 13th, 2009 at 1:41 pmIt’s important to point out that Sutherland’s character, shortly after the Senate stuff, states that the public deserves to know what torture has gone on and that it is wrong to hide this information from the public. These later statements are far more significant than the Senate talk. The right wing is not going to like that part.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:49 pmKeifer Sutherland has earned fame and fortune by promoting a mythology that torture works and should be embraced. He should quit the show if he believes what he says.
Too many Hollywood types don’t appreciate the propagandist power of their medium in shaping peoples’ world views. Guess what? Repeated airings of messages like 24’s “Torture Works” does a lot to embed those messages.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:51 pmReally, I’m pissed at, and fed up with, Keifer Sutherland over this. The guy’s a creep.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:53 pmOnce upon a time there was this righteous, god fearing gal who took a job in a whorehouse doing laundry because there was no other employment in town. A month or so later she was asked by her fellow church goers if maybe that wasn’t a bad thing to do. She answered, oh heavens no. I just do laundry.
Well, maybe I fill in on a busy Saturday night.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:54 pm“With New Season Of 24, Right Wing Falls In Love With Torture All Over Again”
Faux News: The Dumbing down of journalism
Amazing. So, the fake journalist station, Faux News, is having a lovefest over a fictional character, Jack Bauer, on the TV show, “24″ on torture? What’s next for Faux News, a lovefest over Sunday TV show, The Unit?
It’s sad that Faux News would analyze torture from a fictional show. Even our own DHS Chertoff had a panel last year featuring some of the actors and writers on the show to discuss 24 and about CTU. That tells you how our own DHS are idiots. If Faux News feel that art imitate life, then I have the ask the moron journalists on that show if the fictional character Jack Bauer is brought back to the U.S. to testify in front of the Senate Committee on torture, then why are Tubby McTreason Rove, Harriet Miers, and Josh Bolten not testifying for their acts in the USA attorney firings to the House committee?
We have a lot more important issues in this country than Faux News trying to analyze a fictional show, 24, on torture.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:01 pmBauer is just another version of the dumbass American going in and blowing lots of crap up, like Arnold did in his 80’s movies, and Rambo did in his 80’s movies.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:03 pmAlphaLiberal~
January 13th, 2009 at 2:05 pmAs several other posters have noted, the show does not espouse the message that ‘torture works’ that is just the message the the right wing chooses to take from it.
I am reminded of Swofford’s JARHEAD where he relates how he and the other recruits would watch FULL METAL JACKET, hardly a pro-war film, over and over enjoying it as ‘war pornography’
Actual interrogators have told the right wing in no uncertain terms that “Torture does not work and is counter-productive” and all they hear is “Torture does blah, blah work and is blah, blah productive” so we can hardly be surprised when they fail to see the failures in a fictional television show.
Attack the TORTURE, not the TELEVISION SHOW!
What will they do when Iran (or any country) captures and tortures our people (military or not)? Will they still condone torture? Will they still falsely tout how effective it is? It’s bound to happen and it will be difficult to prosecute if we don’t prosecute now.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:08 pmThey always get their rocks off from horror porn, the creator of 24’s beliefs are pretty horrible as well.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:22 pmEven fictional portrayal of evil as good is not theater, its propaganda.
That is the challenge of good acting, you must find the humanity in characters who sometimes do inhumane things. It is never interesting to watch an ‘evil’ character do ‘evil’ just ’cause they are bad- that is called propaganda and it leads to a comic-book mentality that leads to trouble in reality.
Watching a person who thinks that they are good and noble and right do something evil because they cannot see their own flaws is the very definition of good theater…
See OEDIPUS, EURYDICE, HAMLET, THE ADDING MACHINE, GLENGARRY GLENN ROSS, etc. etc.
These plays are a warning not a template for living.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:27 pm24? Really? That show still exists?
January 13th, 2009 at 2:30 pmSeriously, 24 is a TV show. I like 24 and can separate it from reality. It’s like a person you know who bases their life around a TV character like Peter Griffin or Dwight Schrute. It’s only funny because it is so sad to watch play out.
Keith Olbermann calls Billo to the floor for being the Frank Burns of news, so what’s the difference when people make a fictional TV show with plot points to drive the “action”, then so-called serious news people apply that to the real world? The difference is a TV show is fantasy and escapism. If people on Faux News want to think 24 drives government policy points on torture, they’re as dumb as any tree stump or rock you can find.
Other shows like Battlestar Galactica has been nicknamed Battlestar Iraq since many of its plot points mirror real world military happenings in Iraq and there have been several other programs that have mirrored situational happenings in torture and questionable practices. I just think 24 happens to be a favorite whipping post because both the neocons love what happens on the show and apply it and Dems hate on it because it’s on FOX and it just has to be a mechanic for pro-torture.
All I have to say is honestly, both sides don’t get it at all if they don’t watch the program and pick and choose what they want to praise and rip on. Because even the recent James Bond and Jason Bourne movies have explored the torture route, because the mechanic has always been there for use. If you want to blame someone, blame Bush and his administration!
January 13th, 2009 at 3:05 pmExactly sectionop92.
January 13th, 2009 at 3:10 pmThe right wing is rooted in fantasy.
January 13th, 2009 at 3:14 pmRemember, these were the people who voted for Reagan because they thought he was a cowboy.
.
Hoodathunk Says:
Standing up to a Senate committee and saying, yeah I’m a thug and the law doesn’t mean squat to me.
Hey, it worked for Oliver North.
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Hoodathunk Says:
Way off topic, my fax machine just puked up a missive that I have been selected to be included in the Presidential Who’s Who Among Business and Professional Acheivers.
Anyone know where I can buy hats in bulk? Cheap?
Congratulations! What’d you do, rob a liquor store? Here ya go.
.
Robin Says:
Already done. In 24: Redemption, Jack Bauer is the one being tortured, and guess what? He gives false info, leading to his escape from capture…
Yeah, well I’m sure the wingnuts will explain to us that torture only works on brown people.
.
Hoodathunk Says:
Sorry belac but I don’t have to divorce my outrage. Maybe you can but fictional representation of evil as acceptable ain’t in my lexicon nor will it ever be. You see, I agree with Briseadh na Faire. Even fictional portrayal of evil as good is not theater, its propaganda.
You’d apparently censor most of the world’s great literature. In my lexicon, that’s evil. What you’re talking about is pure censorship. Furthermore, assuming that all protagonists are always presented as “good” models to emulate, betrays an extremely sophomoric understanding of literature in general.
I haven’t seen 24, but I doubt if it’s just “about torture,” as so many here are trying to make it sound. Besides, Sutherland’s probably under contract anyways.
Also, complaining about the TV show instead of focusing your concern on real torture is just playing into the wingnuts’ hands. They’d rather have you blur reality with fiction too. Tricks like that are their only chance of winning an argument.
January 13th, 2009 at 3:17 pmI wonder what the Right-wing’s other fictional hero, Jesus, would say about torture.
I actually imagine the occasion of any Right-winger’s “turning of the other cheek” to be as improbable as the “ticking time-bomb” scenario.
January 13th, 2009 at 3:38 pmMost normal sane humans usually consider Cinemax after dark acceptable “porn”.
January 13th, 2009 at 3:42 pmUnless you’re a ditto head 25%er. Then fictional torture is what one “polishes the bishop” to.
Yechh.
moonsha Says:
Maybe she would. Its a job.
January 13th, 2009 at 3:50 pmThis season on 24!
BAUER: The map to the bomb was supposed to be in this box, but there’s just a baby here!
BABY: Waah!
AGENT: The terrorists must have fed the map to the baby. It’s in its stomach right now.
BAUER: We don’t have time to wait, the bomb is ticking right now. Hand me that carving knife!
BABY: Waah!
January 13th, 2009 at 4:26 pmAnd the next morning on FOX and Friends!
Is carving up babies ever justified? We’ll speak with one bleeding heart liberal next who says, ‘no’ and a panel of military and entertainment experts who will show us why the whining liberal is out of touch with the post 9/11 ‘reality’…
January 13th, 2009 at 4:41 pmthis is total propaganda. this is seeding society to support a specific ideology. humanity has decided torture is illegal and evil or ‘not good’, let alone ineffective, yet a pocket of humans has decided they know truth instead. why is it every time i read about the neocon past they are always push push pushing ideas which are only ideologically. i guess i am referring to the sense they think they know better than the intelligence community professionals even. we should definitely be collectively leary when guys who make money off war and world calamity start to rewrite national, local or international laws and standards of human decency. this fits the pattern described by naomi wolfe and others about closing down societies. be not fooled by the simple packaging of entertainment.
January 13th, 2009 at 5:32 pmhttp://explore.georgetown.edu/news/?ID=20647
January 13th, 2009 at 5:35 pmUncle Fester Lurks Says:
I wonder how the right would react if say NBC had a fictional TV series based on religious zealots and war mongering mad men who plot and stage events to take over the government of a fictional country and proceed to destroy that country while a fictional cable news programs with zombie like anchors cheer on and support their every move until they are all arrested, tried for treason, war profiteering and war crimes and are all hung from the lamp posts around 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue?
Hell, I’d watch that!! Let’s pitch it. ;o)
January 13th, 2009 at 5:56 pmbelac Says:
And the next morning on FOX and Friends!
KRAUTHAMMER: Look Sean, carving up babies isn’t nearly as bad as the main stream media makes it out to look.
HANNITY: Right, because once you’ve got what you’re looking for, you can just patch that baby up.
COULTER: Blood…
KRAUTHAMMER: Patch that baby up, that’s exactly right. A few band-aids will work just fine in most cases.
COULTER: Entrails…
HANNITY: And our military professionals can do an even better job than the average Joe Sixpack.
COULTER: Those liberal wimps would probably vomit in the baby’s chest cavity!
KRAUTHAMMER: Exactly, Sean. They’ve got sewing needles, all kinds of stuff. Once they’re done, you’d never know that baby was eviscerated in the first place.
HANNITY: So what’s the harm? If it saves American lives, right?
COULTER: Vomit… Keep talking guys, I’m almost there!
January 13th, 2009 at 6:08 pmoh man, for those of you that missed the first episode, you missed some good torture.
Jack was going to jam a pen in this guys eye to get some information and … GUESS WHAT … the guy talked. With that information Jack was able to save more innocent lives.
But you brilliant liberals would rather make nice with the terrorists and see innocent civilians get their heads chopped of by those terrorists, right?
January 13th, 2009 at 6:18 pmTim43:
January 13th, 2009 at 6:21 pmjust see number 78 and explain to me how you know more than they. You know actual qualifications, curriculum vitae type stuff.
But you brilliant liberals would rather make nice with the terrorists and see innocent civilians get their heads chopped of by those terrorists, right?
Those terrorists were actors, those innocent civilians in danger were actors… in real life torture doesn’t work and is counter-productive and Kiefer Sutherland and the terrorists went out and got a beer together after shooting ended.
Jack is not real.
January 13th, 2009 at 6:26 pm‘24′ is not real.
Torture doesn’t work for real- see #78.
This is a television show people. How is this even being discussed here?
This is getting out of hand: first we can see Russia from Alaska, and now we’re taking notes on how to operate from TV!
January 13th, 2009 at 6:27 pmI think less of Kiefer Sutherland now. Much less. I guess money trumps conscience in his case.
January 13th, 2009 at 6:34 pmHa, believe me, torture works.
This one time I pinned my little brother down on the floor and faked that I was going to spit on him. YOU KNOW, the long spit string that you suck back before it releases.
I needed to get some information on who stole my candy bar. It took three times before my little brother gave up my older sister. My little brother was spared a big hoking lugie on his face.
My sister, who stole my candy bar, turned out to be a left wing liberal democrat. Both my brother and I are conservatives. Go Figure
January 13th, 2009 at 6:37 pmHawkeye Says:
——————————————————————————–
I think less of Kiefer Sutherland now. Much less. I guess money trumps conscience in his case.
*********************************************
I am sure that Kiefer really cares.
January 13th, 2009 at 6:38 pmI think less of Kiefer Sutherland now. Much less. I guess money trumps conscience in his case.
Again, Mr. Sutherland is an ACTOR. His job is to portray different characters to the best of his ability. Jack Bauer is a character. It is not up to Kiefer Sutherland as an actor to be the conscience of a nation- that’s our job as citizens of that nation.
Pretending that if he were to walk off the show the right wing would be forced to confront the reality of torture reinforces the right wing notion that we should be taking our cues on this issue from a fictional character.
Torture is wrong. We shouldn’t need Jack Bauer or Kiefer Sutherland to tell us that…
January 13th, 2009 at 6:41 pm86
January 13th, 2009 at 6:41 pmTim43:
Now you are just playing like kids did back in the days of cb radios. Have fun but remember those were children with those cb radios. Get what I’m sayin “good buddy”?
I seriously suspect Tim43 is a liberal pretending to be a wingnut, but I’ll take what comes my way. So…
Tim43 Says:
oh man, for those of you that missed the first episode, you missed some good torture.
Good? “Some good torture?” Was it… good for you? Ew.
.
Tim43 Says:
Jack was going to jam a pen in this guys eye to get some information and … GUESS WHAT … the guy talked. With that information Jack was able to save more innocent lives.
Funny thing, we were just discussing the inability of wignuts to separate fiction from reality. I was a little skeptical that y’all could really be that insane, but I guess I was wrong. Thanks for helping settle that.
.
Tim43 Says:
But you brilliant liberals would rather make nice with the terrorists and see innocent civilians get their heads chopped of by those terrorists, right?
Heads chopped off? Is America under threat of a decapitation plot? Man, the world you live in must be really exciting.
You know, if I had my way, all you pen-jabbing psychos and the head-chopping psychos could just go share a cell somewhere far, far away from me.
January 13th, 2009 at 6:42 pmTim- seen #78 yet? dbadass has posted a link that shows how strongly the PROFESSIONALS disagree with your folksy wisdom… I don’t care how many times you spit on your brother, it doesn’t change the fact that when the USA tortures we’re spitting on everything that makes us great.
January 13th, 2009 at 6:43 pmdbadass Says:
——————————————————————————–
http://explore.georgetown.edu/news/?ID=20647
******************************************************
Wow, if these guys said it, it must be true. RIGGGGGHHHHTTTT!!!!!!
Should I tell you about the other time that I tortured my little brother to get some information??? Would it suprise you that he gave up the info because he knew that I would follow through with the torture?
Funny thing, my left wing liberal sister never got any information out of our little brother because she tried to be nice. NEVER WORKED.
Oh, and guess who are the better friends in the end.
January 13th, 2009 at 6:58 pmOhh, what will you people talk about when Obama is in?
You guys will have nobody to blame for your misery anymore yet the misery will remain.
January 13th, 2009 at 7:01 pmWait a second Tim43:
The thing is that these folks seem qualified to speak on the subject. I have offered you the same opportunity to share your credentials. You have given us little anticdotes of your childhood. So who should I go with you or retired military in colloboration with behavioral specialists?
I sort of think it is time to call bullshit as I have some other stuff to do this night…
January 13th, 2009 at 7:02 pmFrom dbadass’s link:
Opening Paragraph…
but of course we can discount their opinions because Tim43 tortured his brother and now they’re best friends… wow, if you and Jack Bauer swear by it it must be true, RIGHHT???
What must it be like on Planet Tim43?
A magical place where torture is fun and brings people together, ah to be young again!
January 13th, 2009 at 7:06 pmTim43 Says:
oh man, for those of you that missed the first episode, you missed some good torture.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I guess that passes for entertainment to ignorant souless morons like you. Good torture.
Jack was going to jam a pen in this guys eye to get some information and … GUESS WHAT … the guy talked. With that information Jack was able to save more innocent lives.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Guess why? Wait, a guess would require higher brain function and that is FAR beyond our abilities so I will tell you. BECAUSE IT WAS WRITTEN THAT WAY. What part of FICTION are you just too stupid to understand?
But you brilliant liberals would rather make nice with the terrorists and see innocent civilians get their heads chopped of by those terrorists, right?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You ignorant souless cretins would torture anybody brown enough to make you FEEL safer not that you would be but you dont care. You dont even have the semblance of decency. You dont care about values, morality, or any of the things those of us burdened by that decency thing have to worry about. Torture them all and let God recognize his own as long as cowardly morons like you can feel better. You people are disgusting. Because YOU are cowards you would eschew all standards of decency and make the US join the evil doers club. Assuring of course that the next time we go to war with a civilized country OUR soldiers will be tortured but you dont care about them either. You only care about yourself. Your cowardice must be addressed it doesnt matter to you how many innocents have to pay the cost. Our soldiers innocent people none of this matters to you because you are a cowardly bedwetter scared of those nasty turban guys. You are a disgusting piece of garbage.
January 13th, 2009 at 7:11 pmHi belac,
January 13th, 2009 at 7:12 pmDo you notice anything odd about Tim43 at number 92?
Tim43 Says:
Keifer probably doesnt care any more than WE care what an incredibly stupid souless moron like YOU thinks.
January 13th, 2009 at 7:13 pmThat he obviously didn’t read your link or that he thinks he and his little brother are best friends ’cause he used to torture him?
January 13th, 2009 at 7:14 pmNo! He deliberately and with intent made sure the link was reposted. Add to that the zany me and my sibs stories and I am forced to think Tim43 may not be what Tim43 suggests.
January 13th, 2009 at 7:16 pmTim43 Says:
My GOD you are ignorant.
http://explore.georgetown.edu/news/?ID=20647
******************************************************
Wow, if these guys said it, it must be true. RIGGGGGHHHHTTTT!!!!!!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It was a study done by interrogators and psychologists. What to EXPERTS know right? We ought to take the word of a souless moron that bullied his little brother. If we need any little kids tortured we will call on your expertise other than that I cant believe even someone as stupid as you thinks that is in any way relevant. You redefine stupid Timmeh
January 13th, 2009 at 7:17 pmAhh, very clever dbadass… you may well be on to something…
January 13th, 2009 at 7:18 pmTim43 Says: 93
You are ignorant you are a coward, you are a punk. Who do YOU blame your abject stupidity on? Oh by the way moron you still cant read our minds and dont know anything about us. Your delusions in no way define reality.
January 13th, 2009 at 7:19 pmbelac said:
Pretending that if he were to walk off the show the right wing would be forced to confront the reality
But, no-one said that, did they? Argue with strawmen much?
We know Kiefer Sutherland is an actor. And Leni Riefenstahl was an actress. And Tokyo Rose was a radio broadcaster. They’re not the same, exactly, but all are examples of propaganda used to further very bad policies. Propaganda matters.
And broadcasting TV shows showing torture as moral, useful and excusable is propaganda. Kiefer Sutherland is enriching himself in lending his craft to this cause.
Simple concept, really.
January 13th, 2009 at 8:52 pmI wanna torture Jack Bauer.
January 13th, 2009 at 8:56 pmAlphaLiberal Says:
And broadcasting TV shows showing torture as moral, useful and excusable is propaganda.
Putting an issue out there and then letting people debate over it appears to be the intent here, as it is with a lot of modern TV drama. It doesn’t seem to settle the “moral, useful and excusable” argument. Some characters are for it, others are against it. In one instance shown it helps, in another it doesn’t. Ultimately, the aim is to get people talking about it. Which we’re doing right now.
Comparing that to WWII propaganda radio broadcasts and “Triumph of the Will” is something of a strawman argument itself. Those do not attempt to promote two-sided discussion and debate, but instead to settle and quell it.
January 13th, 2009 at 9:01 pmEveryone else is savaging this statement on the merits, but I think someone ought to savage it on the facts: The guy didn’t talk; he didn’t get a chance to — he was killed by a sniper before he could say anything useful (that’s one of 24’s favorite pacing mechanisms).
Oh, and as of yet, no innocent lives have been saved so far this season, by that or any other piece of information. So Tim43’s statement is full of crap factually, as well.
Anyway, they learned nothing from that particular threat of torture that they didn’t already know going in; and the way they got to that point was through classical, passive data analysis — looking at reports, examining intelligence, and making connections.
January 13th, 2009 at 9:19 pmRay Radlein Says:
Thanks Ray. I didnt watch the show so I didnt know that. Essentially not only is Timmeh a moron he is also a liar. Check
January 13th, 2009 at 10:26 pmThis is why Americans are incurious and clueless on how the real world funtions.
January 13th, 2009 at 10:34 pmwhat happened to rddaos or rrdaos or whatever it was. I mean no disrespect I just can’t remember and that stuff is older now which is of course a hassle of sorts. I figure they might wish to join in the discussion.
January 13th, 2009 at 10:35 pmI don’t think we need to be bashing an award winning show over a bunch of people that apparently don’t know tv from real life. I happen to be a viewer of the show since its first season. I have watched season 1-6 at least 5 times and have always been an avid fat. The show combines drama, action, and suspense like no tv show I have ever seen. That said, I am fervently against torture, and one of my favorite things in the show is its moral abiguity. The writers not only show horrible things, but also how the characters must live with what they do. Also, the right wingers who use the show to justify torture should go to season 2, where in the last 12 hours Jack Bauer took it upon himself to try and stop a war about to be waged on a Middle Eastern Nation because of forged and false evidence. (Season 2 aired in 2003) My point is that 24 has many different levels and challenges the viewer on many different issues. Conservatives are picking out parts of the show and using it to justify thier actions an that is not the writer’s fault.
January 13th, 2009 at 10:57 pmAlphaLiberal
Uh, so have you watched any of the Jason Bourne movies when 24-like things are happening in those films, yet they don’t get a peep on TP? Do you happen to watch either of the Stargate TV series and the heavy and flattering rolls the military gets from the exposure? Yet no one questions the show’s producers on their direct ties the series’ has with the U.S. military itself…even in a time of war.
You expose upon this propaganda with 24, yet you can only give WWII references with your ties. 24 does not take a ham-fisted approach to this and if a lot of the bashers of the series would actually grade the series on the whole and not the parts, the writers have put in a lot of guilt and moral dilemmas that the actions of torture alone will bring, if not brought already.
This show has not ignored the subject matter that has become its burden and has engaged it in a quick matter. If you call that propaganda, I call horsesh!t. Hollywood uses torture in a lot of other shows and movies, namely graphic horror movies, and TP and other progressive sites will ignore those and still beat 24 like a mule for no better reason than it’s there.
If some people can’t put the blame on the real people who brought about this bleak era on this nation, don’t blame actors and other people in the entertainment industry in a McCarthy-like manner. It’s a TV show and if people don’t like it, they’ll decide that for themselves.
January 13th, 2009 at 11:10 pmjlw771 Says:
Yeah. I didnt like the show the couple of times I watched it. That said I dont really think they are doing anything wrong with showing whatever fictional story they see fit. TV isnt required to deal with the big picture nor are they obligated to adhere even to logical outcomes. Its about entertainment. Now if the wingnuts who point to this FICTIONAL show would just GET that we wouldnt be having this discussion.
January 13th, 2009 at 11:19 pmUmm…. Shouldn’t we all be busting Jennine Garafalo’s chops for being on this show also? She plays an FBI agent, and witnessed torture yet said nothing…I’m just saying….
January 13th, 2009 at 11:58 pmWhat about a episode of 24 that Jack Bauer tries to torture Rambo………….?
January 14th, 2009 at 3:14 amCriticizing an actor for a character he plays is kind of lame. Should actors not play criminals or rapists or any kind of person that they do not personally like? Is an actor playing Hitler endorsing genocide?
January 14th, 2009 at 10:09 amAnd broadcasting TV shows showing torture as moral, useful and excusable is propaganda.
AlphaLiberal~
January 14th, 2009 at 12:26 pmWe agree- I just feel that the propaganda in this situation is all the ‘news’ and ‘comment’ shows that are pretending that there is an example to be followed in Jack Bauer.
And when we, who are opposed to torture, attack Kiefer Sutherland instead of attacking those who are misusing Jack Bauer we tacitly agree that to base your torture policy on a fictional character is a reasonable thing to do… and that’s silly.
No need for the seemingly snide remark, I was only pointing out what could be called delicious irony… ; )
January 14th, 2009 at 9:11 pmexcellent! so-called “ticking time bomb” scenarios do not justify tolerating torture because they are actually rare. I agree. Here is where you lose me. The pro-choice crowd argues that the rarity of partial birth abortions is actually an argument why they should not be banned. But according to the principle on torture, which I agree with, the rareness of something does not mean that we can thereby tolerate it, or, as the author here implies, actually argues against supporting it.
January 14th, 2009 at 10:32 pm