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powerful Says:

As I said, if gay men get to share quarters and showers with other men, then straight men should be allowed to shower and sleep with the women.

Maybe that’ll be the case in the long run. But you can’t be kicked out of the military for being male or female. That’s a difference.

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powerful Says:

George Bush is a veteran.

Debatable.

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powerful Says:

Military serving civilian leadership is the bedrock of our Constitution and I defended that principle for 30 years. When you have equal stake in the issue, get back to me. Thanks

So you get the whole military serving civilians thing, but you also believe that civilians should have no opinion on how the military functions. Cognitive dissasociate much?

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Craig Mack Says:

Here is a question I pose to you all: Do you really think that, when the policy is repealed, gays and lesbians will flock to the recruiters office in droves, eager to join up? Seriously……

This isn’t about increasing enlistment. That’s not really the point. But of all the people who were discharged from the military for being gay since DADT was instantiated, how many of them do you think were bad soldiers? Can you really say that the military is better off with them gone? If not, then the policy is detrimental.

I’m not going to make an “equal rights” argument here, since the military is exempt from the same claim to rights that the rest of us have anyways. However, I will point out that at every stage in which we have integrated a new group into regular military service – racial minorities and women specifically – it has only made increased the effectiveness of the military. There’s no good reason to think that this would be any different. None of the reasons against that have been provided are any better than the reasons that were provided for integrating minorities and women.

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Democrat Soldier Says:

My entire time in the Army, not one of my roommates had a problem with me being gay.

That’s a great personal anecdote, DS. Thanks for sharing.

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glezzery Says:

I’m thinking, that if the policy changes, the military can id gays and transfer them to a separate brigade, perhaps with a rainbow patch.

Ooh, and we could put a yellow six-pointed-star patch on the Jews!

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glezzery Says:

Then there could be a leather/fisting battalion.

Um, no. That’s just your imagination there. But you have fun with that. There are probably some vidios on the Interweb you could buy.

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glezzery Says:

The rest of the gay soldiers that just want to be soldiers and not be singled out as a victim group, will continue not to advertise it and get on with their lives, like most of you should!

It’s not a question of advertisement; it’s a question of not having to go out of your way to hide it and lie to your fellow soldiers. Those soldiers would have to actively watch themselves to make sure they don’t mention it, or else they’d be transferred to the “patch” brigade.

But you know, maybe segregation would be a good start. Once the gay brigade achieved consistently better results than the straight one, we could talk about integrating them.

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Tracy__5 Says:

Icecream? That your comparative example?

Yup. So-called “moral” judgements that don’t have any real-world consequences constitute nothing more than statements of personal preference. Just like ice cream.

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Here’s the bottom line: troops serve, as ordered. If ordered to get used to it, that’s what they’ll do. I may be a civilian, but I afford our troops enough respect to assume that they will do as they are instructed. To believe anything less dishonors their spirit of service.

January 15th, 2009 at 12:39 pm

You’re ignoring the gay-only brigade will be safe for women as the men would not end up raping them.

Or, we could not even ask a soldiers sexual orientation, and soldiers could get on with their military lives like everyone else in America.

Interesting that you didn’t think of that aspect as you were trying to assert that gay soldiers must think of themselves as victims.

“It doesn‘t, and you can‘t, I won‘t, and it don‘t
it hasn‘t, it isn‘t, it even ain‘t, and it shouldn‘t
it couldn‘t”…

Our barracks at Ft. Bragg had 2 to a room, as well. However, we were not allowed to have ANY over-night guests of any gender, and day guests had to sign in and out with CQ. I’m jealous.

I agree that any actual effects would be minimal. The MAIN effect, though, would be that the gay soldiers would not HAVE to hide their orientation and would not have to pretend to be someone they are not (that is to say: these soldiers would not be FORCED to continue to DECEIVE their fellow soldiers and officers). My recollection of the fellows serving with me would be that very few of them would care at all (and odds are pretty high that several men in my unit were gay, reflecting back on it…. kind of like how I never realized in my youth that Rob Halford was gay, but looking back at those early Priest videos — how could you NOT see it?!?!).

Showering: well, some barracks have individual stalls and NOT the shower-room. That is not a tall order. Several soldiers I served with refused to shower with anyone else in the shower room (and thus were pretty stinky after moring PT and through the day). Those were the likely homophobes.

As long as no one is touching you (nor touching themselves while staring at you), what does it matter? That is part of a general hang-up that is prevelant in the western world: shame over nakedness, and the assumption that nakedness equates only to sex. Time to grow up. If you can’t shower with a mixed grooup and not think about sex, then the rpoblem is in your head. if you can’t do the same and not touch someone, you have a serious disorder and need medical help.

Keltio: impressively reasonable posting. Are you feeling o.k.? I mean, how can you be the dissenting voice of opposition if you aren’t? :)

January 14th, 2009 at 9:06 pm
__________

Um, I thought the crux of the biscuit is the apostrophe.

January 14th, 2009 at 9:51 pm

You do make a good point. My entire time in the Army, not one of my roommates had a problem with me being gay. the only comment I got was “I just don’t want to walk in on you doing anything. . . .” I felt the exact same way about them. We decided that if we were going to bring anyone back to the room that we’d turn the name-tag on the door sideways to let the other know not to just barge in.

Our barracks had a maximum of 2 persons per room. Not the typical barracks you see in basic training where it’s one huge room with a line of bunks on each side. This was the duty station at Ft. Myer in Arlington VA. I was stationed at the Pentagon so Ft. Myer was the support base for most military personnel.

I did have a gay girl stay with me one night. We had mad, passionate sleep! My roommate told me later that she was really hot and told me how lucky I was, even though he knew she was gay!

Here is a question I pose to you all: Do you really think that, when the policy is repealed, gays and lesbians will flock to the recruiters office in droves, eager to join up? Seriously……

Well, to be honest, I associate testosterone with aggression. I think of gay men as having less of it than other men, and gay women as having more than other women. That being the case, I’d expect more lesbians than gay men to be interested in military service. Never been in, correct me if I am wrong. That being the case, and women, in my experience, being less prone to homophobia than men, maybe this issue is overblown from the standpoint of how many people it will actually affect. In other words, this is a question of political ideology more than practical reality.

I was sort of afraid that might be the case.

Tom got her the part….

Ouch.

Tom got her the part….

Which brings us right back to Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell…

“Dang, it’s hard to shoot when this mask keeps slipping down!”

I suppose I’d better go with the eyes wide shut approach then….

Ag! Please don’t mention that film. I love Kubrik, but I wish that wasn’t his last movie. How do you make Nicole Kidman totally unsexy? More importantly, why do you make her that?

now what if I am bisexual. Where do I get to sleep?

Its determined by lottery.