Oh so it’s just a matter of getting the warrant so that the information collected could be used in court IF it ever has to be used in court. This has nothing to do with listening the foreign nationals on the other end because American laws regarding listening to them legally or illegally don’t apply to them, just if the government decides to prosecute an American citizen that might be on the line. I was more referring to the front lines i.e. using that information to intercept and foil terrorist plots.
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you are still missing the point. There ALWAYS needs to be oversight. I dont care if the warrants are after the fact. I care that THERE ARE WARRANTS. That way A) It complies with the fourth amendment and B) There is a paper trail OUTSIDE the Executive Branch so that if they decide to wiretap political opponents or reporters or their brother in law it is KNOWN and cant be covered up. I do not TRUST government without oversights and yes if this were Clinton or Obama or the most liberal president imaginable I would still be saying the same thing.

“There are few viewpoints, if there are any, which trigger more fervent agreement across the political and media establishment than the view that George Bush, Dick Cheney and other top officials should not be criminally investigated, let alone prosecuted, for the various laws they have broken over the last eight years. Conversely, in the Beltway world, few things will render you ‘Unserious’ as quickly and irrevocably as arguing that Bush officials should be held accountable under the rule of law for their multiple violations of criminal statutes. Everyone from Cass Sunstein and Ruth Marcus to David Broder and Stuart Taylor valiantly stands up and defends the President and his top aides against the terribly uncouth and disruptive suggestion that their crimes merit investigation and prosecution. [. . .]”

“Thomas Tamm is the mid-level, career Justice Department lawyer who, in 2004, blew the whistle on Bush’s illegal NSA spying program by alerting The New York Times’ Eric Lichtblau to the fact that Bush was eavesdropping on Americans without the warrants required by law. He then watched his life be virtually destroyed by the FBI’s ensuing — and still ongoing — criminal investigation into this disclosure. Last month, Newsweek’s Michael Isikoff wrote a detailed account of what Tamm did and why, and how his life has unraveled as a result. I had been exchanging emails with Tamm for several months prior to that and the extent to which his life has been shattered as a result of his heroic whistle-blowing is truly amazing.”

Glenn Greenwald. (2009, January 8). The DOJ pursues the “real criminal” in the NSA spying scandal. http://www.salon.com/. Retrieved January 8, 2009, from http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/01/07/tamm/

Thomas Tamm is a hero for ratting out Bush and exposing Bush’s illegal NSA spying program.

It is really bewildering why the Department of Justice is investigating Tamm when it should be investigating those responsible for the illegal NSA spying activities.

Bush is like an idiot. Bush knew or should have known that too many people had known about the existence of his illegal NSA spying program. Bush knew or should have known that one or more people would eventually rat out Bush and expose Bush and ruin Bush.

Thomas Tamm did just that.

Thomas Tamm is one of my role models.

Thomas Tamm is great.

Bush is a fool: Bush kept on pursuing his illegal NSA spying program with no plan relative to its harm to his reputation pursuant to exposure.

The American people should thank Thomas Tamm from the bottom of their hearts for responsibly ratting out Bush.

Had Thomas Tamm not ratted out Bush, the American people would not even have known that so many of them were being illegally spied upon.

Bush must be punished.

Submitted by Andrew Yu-Jen Wang
B.S., Summa Cum Laude, 1996
Messiah College, Grantham, PA
Lower Merion High School, Ardmore, PA, 1993

“GEORGE W. BUSH IS THE WORST PRESIDENT IN U.S. HISTORY” BLOG OF ANDREW YU-JEN WANG

ONLINE ANTI-BUSH SCHOLASTIC RESEARCH: LISTING OF MAJOR ISSUES

http://andrewyu-jenwang.blogspot.com/2008/10/bush-is-worst-president-in-american.html

Well, that would be a good reason to wish Bush longevity.

One might also wish Bush longevity if Bush is sentenced to prison for the rest of his life.

In that case, Bush would hopefully live long to be confronted with punitive consequences relative to his criminal activities.

Submitted by Andrew Yu-Jen Wang
B.S., Summa Cum Laude, 1996
Messiah College, Grantham, PA
Lower Merion High School, Ardmore, PA, 1993

“GEORGE W. BUSH IS THE WORST PRESIDENT IN U.S. HISTORY” BLOG OF ANDREW YU-JEN WANG

ONLINE ANTI-BUSH SCHOLASTIC RESEARCH: LISTING OF MAJOR ISSUES

http://andrewyu-jenwang.blogspot.com/2008/10/bush-is-worst-president-in-american.html

For what reason would that need the a warrants after the information is intercepted and used?….or can it not be used untill that warrant is issued. Yeah…as if that ever happened or should have ever been required.
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Wow that was dumb. Yes warrants HAVE been obtained AFTER the wiretap. The point is OVERSIGHT. Getting the warrant even AFTER the wiretap begins is first leaving a paper trail of WHO was wiretapped outside of the Executive Branch and Second shows that they understand warrants ARE required. This is actually pretty simple

“Nah, it couldn’t be that because the “time table” problem is a fantasy.”

Not according to these FISA judges….

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Funny I didnt read ANYTHING in that article about time constraints.

Maybe they finally realized that the whole “time table” problem with getting warrants issued is valid.
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There IS no timetable issue. You can get a FISA warrant up to 72hrs AFTER the wiretap

It also doesn’t address the issue of data mining of domestic calls of Americans. This is the issue the telecom’s faced where they captured internal calls without a wiretap Qwest was the only one that balked at providing the switches to generate the data.

This quote pretty much says it all. That is if you can get past your reading impairment to actually read what it says…

“Decency, security, and liberty alike demand that governmental officials shall be subjected to the same rules of conduct that are commands to the citizen. In a government of laws, existence of the government will be imperiled if it fails to observe the law scrupulously.” – Ibid.

No, the point was that the Government could not tap any and all phone lines and start ‘data-mining’ which is exactly what they wanted to do (and did) so they pretended the time issue was the problem and the reason they needed FISA 2, when in fact the FISA law specifically addressed the time issue. See shoeless’ comment above.
What they could do is start tapping an individual phone, go to the FISA court at any time during the next 72 hours and have that wiretap declared legal, and then use that information in court.
As you so cleverly point out, if you don’t plan on using the information in court- you don’t really need a warrant. The NSA has been listening to everything for years.
But if you need to go to the FISA court and apply for a warrant and the only reason you can offer is that you picked up a ‘hit’ on this line during your massive data-mining project, well then that’s illegal and inadmissible in a court of law.
Hence, FISA 2…

WE give lip service to the law and rights, but we don’t really mean it. The average person knows less than nothing about the Constitution except a few laws. But they have no desire to protect it. They forget that if they don’t understand what those freedoms entail, they cannot hope to keep them.

Our legislators don’t care.They passed every egregious thing that Bush asked for. And other than a few of them, they all gave our rights away. And in the process weakened their own as well.

The Congress and Senate are full of stupid, greedy, lazy legislators. And we keep re-electing them. No wonder they don’t respect anything, especially us.

Feingold remains a voice of reason. He’s about the only Congress Critter to uphold the Constitution these past 8 years.

I agree that the FISA Judges just ruled themselves out of their salaries.

Mr. Obama has a daunting challenge facing him. Upholding the Constitution when parasites like Scalia sit on the SCOTUS is not going to be easy.

Thanks, Senator Feingold. You’re a true Patriot.

He’s being slippery here. Go look up some info about the new FISA statute. People want to think “warrants” when they hear “FISA” but the NSA or the DOJ can spy on someone for 120 days before getting court approval now.

“Will you follow the law that says you can spy on people without court permission for 120 days and then we’ll rubber stamp approval after that?”

“Yes, sir!”

“Good. You are a true patriot!”

So, yeah, if the Obama administration follows the law, they will be doing warrantless wiretaps.

Thanks Obama. Thanks Holder.

I’m sorry, StratRat, I forgot my place.

You are one of the good ones PLC. I knew you would understand. If the country were a bus, we would have to sit in the back.

FDR threatened to pack the court. The Constitution allows for impeachment of Supreme Court Justices.

Somehow, I doubt Obama has the stomach (or the support) for either fight.

I’m sorry, StratRat, I forgot my place.