Holder breaks with Mukasey, says ‘waterboarding is torture.’
Holder breaks with Mukasey, says ‘waterboarding is torture.’
In October 2007, during his confirmation hearings, Attorney General Michael Mukasey refused to call waterboarding torture and to this day has not called it torture. In his confirmation hearing today, Attorney General nominee Eric Holder clearly said that he believes waterboarding is torture:
HOLDER: If you look at the history of the use of that technique, used by the Khmer Rouge, used in the Inquisition, used by the Japanese and prosecuted by us as war crimes. We prosecuted our own soldiers for using it in Vietnam. I agree with you, Mr. Chairman, waterboarding is torture.
In another break with Bush administration officials, Holder said other countries would be violating international law if they waterboarded U.S. citizens. Watch it:
Holder also said that the President cannot immunize officials who committed acts of torture. “No one is above the law,” he stated.
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“No one is above the law,”
What a concept.
It’s nice to have the Constitution back after an 8 year absence, isn’t it?
January 15th, 2009 at 11:14 amBush waterboarded. Bush tortured. Bush committed war crimes.
Bush/Cheney–Prison 09′
January 15th, 2009 at 11:14 amHolder is totally correct. Let’s bring back some real values and morality. No torture.
January 15th, 2009 at 11:15 amThese statements are going to be torture to some BushCo members and supports. Thus, we can expect them to provide false information as a result.
In all seriousness, it is refreshing and encouraging to hear Holder make these statements. I predict that Obama and Biden will “go forward” while Holder “goes back” to address previous abuses, perhaps even bring charges. I’m certainly hoping this is the case.
January 15th, 2009 at 11:16 amNO one is above the law
Bush/Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gonzo, Mukasey, Yoo, Wolfowitz, Perle, Ashcroft, Feith, Rove, Condi, Powell, Bolton. Arrest, try, convict, EXECUTE.
NUREMBERG II 2009
January 15th, 2009 at 11:17 am1. raynman Says: It’s nice to have the Constitution back after an 8 year absence, isn’t it?
Wow you’re easy…a little gratuitous rhetoric and you’re convinced. Hasn’t anyone learned anything over the past 8 years?!
When they telecast bush’s hearing, I’ll join you.
January 15th, 2009 at 11:18 amThis just in…Sales of Depends skyrocket inside the Beltway. CEO of Depends says he doesn’t see a link with recent comments by PE Obama, blames bad lamb chops…
January 15th, 2009 at 11:19 amPatrioticLiberalChristian Says:
In all seriousness, it is refreshing and encouraging to hear Holder make these statements. I predict that Obama and Biden will “go forward” while Holder “goes back” to address previous abuses, perhaps even bring charges. I’m certainly hoping this is the case.
January 15th, 2009 at 11:16 am
__________
Me too. Justice needs to be served, or the country will never truly go forwrd. I’d like to see us form the type of non-partisan Truth and Reconciliation Commission that other countries have formed in the wake of their more despotic leaders, to investigate all such crimes against humanity.
January 15th, 2009 at 11:19 am“No one is above the law.”
Including Bush & Cheney.
Run with that, Mr Holder.
January 15th, 2009 at 11:21 amBut if waterboarding is torture… and it’s illegal to torture… and no one is above the law… that means that if the President personally authorized waterboarding…
They’ve got five days left for a hail mary pass. Except it kind of looks like they’ve given up.
January 15th, 2009 at 11:24 am“No one is above the law”
but they can be above punishment imposed via a Presidential pardon. Recall Richard Nixon?
January 15th, 2009 at 11:25 amHolder is making important, bold statements – good.
Obama is making important, bold statements – Great.
I hope he follows up with some meaningful action once in office so that the dangerous precedences set under dur chimpfurher do not stand.
The future of our democracy depends on being sure future administrations cannot point to chimpy and cheney to justify their treason, war crimes, and crimes against humanity.
January 15th, 2009 at 11:26 amOkay, okay, I AM holding my breath ! 1 Mississippi , 2 Mississippi , 3 Mississippi ,4 … .A real blue democrat , give me a little fresh air .
January 15th, 2009 at 11:26 amSOT…I read in another post how Republicans are planning on not being in the Capital on Tuesday. We wouldn’t be so lucky that their destinations of choice would be extradition free countries, would we?
January 15th, 2009 at 11:27 amThese statements are very encouraging. I certainly hope Holder can put an end to decades of republican criminality. If the cycle of war crimes could have ended with Vietnam, BushCo and Clinton could have been prevented and millions of lives could have been saved.
January 15th, 2009 at 11:33 amThe Rethugs are going to be out of town when Obama sworn in.
That’s mighty WHITE of them.
MAJOR SNARK!!!!
January 15th, 2009 at 11:33 amHolder is master of the obvious. May he continue to follow those of us who were right all along.
January 15th, 2009 at 11:35 amWASHINGTON (AP) — Attorney general nominee Eric Holder is getting a key endorsement from a popular Republican at his confirmation hearing.
Recently retired Virginia Sen. John Warner introduced Holder to his former colleagues Thursday.
No Republicans have said they will oppose Holder. But they have indicated he will face tough questioning about his record as the Justice Department’s No. 2 official during the Clinton administration.
Warner called for Holder’s confirmation. He described Holder as a veteran prosecutor who has investigated public corruption in both parties.
January 15th, 2009 at 11:36 amTo say it’s been “a long 8 years” is a monumental understatement. Welcome back America.
January 15th, 2009 at 11:36 amHolder also said that the President cannot immunize officials who committed acts of torture.
Definitely won’t prevent Chimp from trying.
January 15th, 2009 at 11:37 amListening to this conversation makes me feel like I just came back from a trip to Absurdistan. How could such a thing have ever been in debate? It’s patently ridiculous.
It’s like the Senate asking an AG nominee whether it was really true that Senators had to give the President a $20 bill every time they saw him, because that’s what everybody told them for the last eight years, and they were almost broke.
January 15th, 2009 at 11:38 amI’m holding my breath over last-minutes pardons. After the inauguration, we’ll see what can be done.
We need to be ready to scream bloody murder if/when Bush overplays his hand and pushes the Constitutional pardon provision too far.
I fear we’ll be paying for Pelosi’s failure to impeach for generations.
January 15th, 2009 at 11:39 amlooking forward to seeing clips of the actual explosion..
O’Reilly Freaks Out Over the Thought of Holding Bush Admin Torturers Culpable
http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/oreilly-freaks-out-over-thought-hold
January 15th, 2009 at 11:46 amAnd I’m hoping the old national security blanket gets pulled back to cover things that really effect our security. The American public is a lot tougher than Bushco thinks and the fear that pursuing war crimes and such is just that…thier fear of getting caught.
I’m thinking Americans are more than ready to reclaim their pride.
January 15th, 2009 at 11:48 amIf Obama & Co. truly restore justice and the rule of law, starting with the prosecution of Bush & Cheney for war crimes — I’ll stop being ashamed of America.
January 15th, 2009 at 11:51 amDamned Florida 2000.
¶ AIO
January 15th, 2009 at 11:51 am120 hours left until the Bushie Bye Bye express gets rolling.
120 hours until adults are back in charge of our Country.
Take a deep breath, America…and vow; NEVER AGAIN!
January 15th, 2009 at 11:52 amSquirm Alberto, squirm…
January 15th, 2009 at 11:52 amAnd Billo’s head just exploded. Heh.
January 15th, 2009 at 11:53 amWhoa!
Not so fast, kiddies. Obama ain’t planning on prosecuting squat! (via Greenwald)
There’s more:
There’s more. Hyperlinks in the original. As I said, Holder’s gum-banging and Conyers’ ‘committee’ tapdance is sound and fury, signifying….nothing. No prosecutions. The game is rigged.
No justice.
January 15th, 2009 at 11:56 amWhat an improvement! I mean, let’s not forget how bad the last administration was:
http://tv1.com/playlists/123
January 15th, 2009 at 11:59 amSure, but are his taxes in order? Now that’s what really matters to DC politicians in such cases, isn’t it?
January 15th, 2009 at 12:06 pmhanshiro Says:
To underscore the message, Obama indicated that he would oppose retrospective investigations of wrongdoing by the CIA and other agencies, arguing: “When it comes to national security, what we have to focus on is getting things right in the future, as opposed [to] looking at what we got wrong in the past.” This is the kind of realism that will disappoint liberal score-settlers, but it makes clear that Obama has a grim appreciation of the dangers America still faces from al-Qaeda and its allies.
January 15th, 2009 at 11:56 am
__________
Score-settlers?
Prosecuting people for crimes they have committed isn’t score-settling. It’s not political tit-for-tat. It’s justice. And justice is fundamental to democracy. Without justice, the government no longer has the authority or ability to enforce the rule of law. Without the rule of law, governance is meaningless, and democracy is a pointless gesture.
And what Greenwald points out – and as Ignatius puts so disgustingly – is that the Washington political and media establishment is more than content with the status quo, in which democracy already IS a meaningless and pointless gesture.
We must continue to pressure Obama and his administration to look backward as well as forward, or else all his future foreign and domestic policies will be no more than empty gestures.
January 15th, 2009 at 12:11 pmOk, it’s well and said, but come day one they need to get the ball rolling on bringing Bush/Cheney & Co. to justice for their crimes.
I know the list of crimes they committed is a long one, so maybe he should start making a list now.
Bush Worst President Ever – Bush Most Criminal Non-elected President Ever
January 15th, 2009 at 12:12 pm32.Nettles Says: The problem with this whole waterboarding thing is that it apparently does not fall under the category of torture, probably because it is routinely practiced on our own Naval Fighter Pilots during their training.
This is unmitigated crap.
Get up, nettles, so I can knock you down again.
January 15th, 2009 at 12:13 pmhanshiro, you can stuff your paternalistic attitude (”kiddies”) up your a**, along side that “conventional wisdom” which didn’t get much right about Obama all through the 2008 campaign.
nettles, you who support preventive war and torture are the ones with the “bloodlust”. What we liberals and progressives want is justice, a concept that seems to escape your mindset. As for the “waterboarding” done in Naval training – it is not equivalent to its field use. It’s interesting and disturbing that the “traditionalists” or “conservatives” are the ones who are trying to undo our country’s long standing definition and treatment of torture, including prosecuting those who have practiced waterboarding.
January 15th, 2009 at 12:15 pmhanshiro says:
“This is the kind of realism that will disappoint liberal score-settlers, but it makes clear that Obama has a grim appreciation of the dangers America still faces from al-Qaeda and its allies.”
If the US does not enforce its own laws, if we become a country of despots willing to use torture, if we deny our responsibility for unleashing a regime of war crimes with no accountability…they already won. They don’t have to attack again, just sit back and watch us self destruct.
January 15th, 2009 at 12:21 pmSo, Nettie, dear, please ’splain to all of us why we prosecuted and HANGED Japanese soldiers for waterboarding Americans….?
We’ll wait. (I’m sure we’ll have to.)
January 15th, 2009 at 12:21 pm38.PatrioticLiberalChristian Says: hanshiro, you can stuff your paternalistic attitude (”kiddies”) up your a**, along side that “conventional wisdom” which didn’t get much right about Obama all through the 2008 campaign.
Yeah, you’re a scary bunny, plc, but stridently uninformed. The corporations chose him long before the race began. He got millions from industry. You were believing it was a race; yet somehow, the corrupt press “couldn’t lay a glove on Obama” right?
You a Frank Capra fan, plc?
January 15th, 2009 at 12:22 pmDoes this mean we can hang Donald Rumsfeld, now?
January 15th, 2009 at 12:22 pmhanshiro, nice job at #36. You’ve got a good punch. I just wish you would stick to using it against what others actually say and do (such as nettles and BushCo), rather than against your prediction of what someone might do (like Obama).
January 15th, 2009 at 12:22 pmNettles Says:
The problem with this whole waterboarding thing is that it apparently does not fall under the category of torture, probably because it is routinely practiced on our own Naval Fighter Pilots during their training.
January 15th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
__________
You’re absolutely wrong. Torture is all about context. It’s not just the acts themselves, but how they’re committed and for what purpose.
Loud music, by itself, is not torture. When concertgoers willingly expose themselves to nine hours of loud music at an outdoor festival, it’s not torture. Sleep deprivation, by itself, is not torture. When college students willingly stay up for three nights in a row to cram for midterms, it’s not torture.
Similarly, when waterboarding is conducted in the context of a training exercise, it’s not torture. The reason none of these are torture is because the people receiving the loud music and lost sleep and simulated drownings are IN CONTROL OF THE SITUATION. They are putting themselves in these situations and have the ability to take themselves OUT of these situations.
However, when any of these are used by interrogators against individuals who have no control of the situation, it IS torture. That is the very definition of torture, in fact – it is the act BREAKING an individual through the intentional infliction of physical and mental distress. The act of torture does not convince an individual to give up valuable or true information, it merely puts them in a state of complete dependence on their captors, in which they’ll say anything for the merest reward.
Torture is dehumanization. Torture is a crime against humanity. Torture is never necessary nor is it legal.
Our desire to see W and Cheney and Addington and Yoo and all the rest of the administration prosecuted has nothing to do with bloodlust or politics. If this were a Democratic administration, I’d be just as vehemently calling for their prosecution. This is about seeking justice for the most heinous abuses of power our government has ever committed.
January 15th, 2009 at 12:24 pmGosh, hanshiro, I suddenly understand how omniscient you are as I reflect back to November and remember that, yes, some corporate goons came to my house and demanded that I vote for Obama, which I did. And…and…all the others in my county who voted for Obama followed that same demand, rather than vote their own consciences.
January 15th, 2009 at 12:28 pmI suspected the Pentagon torture admission a setup for pardons:
Bush expected to pardon those with torture links
Ewen MacAskill, Washington
January 16, 2009
Page 1 of 2 | Single Page View
US LAWYERS battling against torture and other abuses at Guantanamo Bay are braced for George Bush issuing last-minute pardons to protect those in his Administration most closely implicated.
The lawyers’ warning came after a senior member of the Bush Administration, Susan Crawford, admitted for the first time that torture had been carried out.
For the rest from our friends down under go to:
http://www.theage.com.au/world/bush-expected-to-pardon-those-with-torture-links-20090115-7i64.html
January 15th, 2009 at 12:29 pm45.PatrioticLiberalChristian Says: I just wish you would stick to using it against what others actually say and do (such as nettles and BushCo), rather than against your prediction of what someone might do (like Obama).
I just call ‘em as I see ‘em, the true story as best as I can determine and research. My opinion of Obama, btw, isn’t based on predictions, but past behavior.
He let bush walk on telecom immunity, showing his two-faced policy of pandering for votes, then flip-flopping. Same with issues like Offshore drilling and same-sex marriage.
I don’t trust his words anymore, just actions, and he’s shown me that he lies and covers up Constitutional violations for political expediency. “That’s not change, my friends.”
That’s bullsh*t
January 15th, 2009 at 12:29 pmhanshiro sees behind the blue curtain:
January 15th, 2009 at 12:31 pmPatrioticLiberalChristian Says:
Gosh, hanshiro, I suddenly understand how omniscient you are as I reflect back to November and remember that, yes, some corporate goons came to my house and demanded that I vote for Obama, which I did. And…and…all the others in my county who voted for Obama followed that same demand, rather than vote their own consciences.
January 15th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
_____________
Demand? No. But you have to at least concede that the only reason Obama was on the ticket was because the corporate goons of Viacom and Time Warner and Disney and GE approved him for appearance on the airwaves and cablewaves. I don’t doubt that you voted your conscience, as did I. But we voted our conscience based on the choices the Washington establishment allowed us to have.
Let’s not lose sight of who’s really in control of the country. That will not change on January 20th.
January 15th, 2009 at 12:35 pmNettles; What I want is JUSTICE. To ignore the domestic and war crimes of the Bushies is to throw out the rule of law altogether.
But that is what YOU want, isn’t it? Rule of law ONLY applies to Democrats and other nations, but not the Rethuglic party.
If Germans, Japanese, and others can be sent to the gallows for doing the same crimes (crimes against peace, crimes against humanity) it is NO LESS A CRIME WHEN DONE BY AMERICANS.
If you can’t agree to that, BITE ME!
January 15th, 2009 at 12:35 pmNo wonder Magic Bullet Senator Specter is doing everything to stop Eric Holder’s appointment. Mr. Holder will bring back the Justice System and apply the US Constitution. Time for the White House/staff/CIA/FBI/Law Makers to ask for plea agreements quick the United States has an Honest Educated Attorney General finally after 8 years of criminal AG’s in office.
January 15th, 2009 at 12:38 pm47.PatrioticLiberalChristian Says: Gosh, hanshiro, I suddenly understand how omniscient you are as I reflect back to November and remember that, yes, some corporate goons came to my house and demanded that I vote for Obama
Basically, he was one of the selections they allowed you to choose from, even having gone to court to block one candidate from the debates and denying others ad space and equal time; downplaying or censoring other messages, issues and hyper-coverage of their chosen, Hillary and Obama.
Read “Manufacturing Consent,” and catch up ;-)
January 15th, 2009 at 12:38 pm*ahem*. I am so very upset that before he has any power whatsoever, and while the criminally corrupt people still have all the power, including extraordinary rendition, illegal wiretaps and suspension of habeus corpus, Obama has not publicly stated that he intended to prosecute them once he got power. That would be so very smart! He should have marched right up there and told the people who throw people in prison without due process that they were gonna go down! Then the criminally corrupt administration would cooperate while patiently waiting to be thrown in jail. *ahem*.
.
Nettles Says:
Liberals want to see their personal bloodlust for W served. They have no interest in “moving the country forward”. Spare me. The extreme left just want to see W hang.
What we want to see served is justice. This may come as a shock to you, but not everybody in the world makes important decision based on personal bloodlust, as the Republicans do. When we say “justice,” we actually have a meaning for that word, rather than waving it around like a flag. It has a definition to progressives. I know the words that I’m speaking fail to sink in, because they’re constructed to impart meaning rather than emotion, and will therefore fail to move you. Later on I’ll put on a monster truck show to explain it in terms your kind can understand.
.
Nettles Says:
The problem with this whole waterboarding thing is that it apparently does not fall under the category of torture, probably because it is routinely practiced on our own Naval Fighter Pilots during their training.
It does fall under the category of torture, both apparently and factually.
It is practiced on our fighter pilots during their training for the specific reason that it is torture. There would be no purpose in practicing non-torture techniques when we expect that our enemies may torture.
January 15th, 2009 at 12:39 pm51. hussein toasterhead Says:
:-)
January 15th, 2009 at 12:41 pmIf the torture CEO is not punished, then we should just shut down the prisons and release all the prisoners.
January 15th, 2009 at 12:43 pmNettles Says:
___________
Ladies and gentlemens, I proudly offer you Exhibit C for my “Raging Chubby” torture hypothesis.
January 15th, 2009 at 12:44 pmFor years the Bush appologists insisted he did nothing wrong. Now that he and Cheney have admitted they are war criminals, the Bush grovelers just want to “move the country forward”. In the immortal words of your favorite VP, f uck yourself.
January 15th, 2009 at 12:44 pmraynman says; It’s nice to have the Constitution back after an 8 year absence, isn’t it?
The times, they are a-changin’
January 15th, 2009 at 12:46 pmNettles Says:
what part of “No one is above the law” do you not understand, you f_king moron?
January 15th, 2009 at 12:51 pmRichard Nixon ended up above the law, from a practical standpoint. Bush’s torture buds might do likewise:
Such pardons could prevent US courts from prosecuting people involved in torture on the Bush Administration’s watch, in much the same way that then president Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon in 1974 for crimes he may have committed during his presidency, even though no specific charge had been made against him.
January 15th, 2009 at 12:56 pmNettles, your attitude brings the whole American system of jurisprudence into a new light. If you commit a crime last week and admit to it yesterday, you shouldn’t be prosecuted.
I am sure criminals everywhere would agree. Can I give them your address?
January 15th, 2009 at 12:57 pmKaty; thanks for the link to Brillo.
He said (and I QUOTE) We need to give the benefit of the doubt to our leaders in a time of war
I can not help but think that’s the same thing said by apologists for Hitler/Goering.
January 15th, 2009 at 1:05 pmElBruce Says:
*ahem*. I am so very upset that before he has any power whatsoever, and while the criminally corrupt people still have all the power, including extraordinary rendition, illegal wiretaps and suspension of habeus corpus, Obama has not publicly stated that he intended to prosecute them once he got power. That would be so very smart! He should have marched right up there and told the people who throw people in prison without due process that they were gonna go down! Then the criminally corrupt administration would cooperate while patiently waiting to be thrown in jail. *ahem*.
January 15th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
_________
I’d like to think he is indeed playing this game, and for all I know you may be right. It may indeed be that Obama fully intends to pursue prosecution of former administration afficials for war crimes and violations of international law and is merely holding his cards close to his chest until he’s in power.
However, I also don’t doubt for a minute that those in the Bush Administration are actively lawyering up and preparing their defensive A, B, and C plans in the event of prosectution. If W plans to issue pardons and immunity in his last hours, he’s going to do it no matter what Obama says.
January 15th, 2009 at 1:11 pmThere are no real comparision between a stuge and a lawyer.
January 15th, 2009 at 1:12 pmAmerica welcomes this relief.
Nettles, you are such an ignorant little shit it’s hard to respond. Like the wife of a man accused of raping their 12 year old daughter, you will defend your man Bush to the end. She ignores the screams at night and the bloody sheets, “He’s a good man, he wouldn’t do that”
And Bush and the Boyz have been raping and defiling our country for 8 years. But hey, knock yourself out btch, he’s a good man.
Just ask him.
January 15th, 2009 at 1:15 pmGuido the Loving OBGYN Says:
Sitting in a dark cell with strobe lights blaring while a guard baton sodomizes you to Metallica is also torture BTW…
While they simulate raping your wife and daughter in the next cell…
January 15th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
________
Unless you’re into that sort of thing, of course.
The thing that makes it torture is the fact that you can’t leave when your hour’s up.
January 15th, 2009 at 1:28 pmNettles Says:
Never did I defend torture. As a matter of fact, I follow the McCain/ Hitchins line that waterboarding does constitute torture and should be banned from interrogations. Simply pointing out that the interpretation is vague does not mean that I condone it.
__________
But the interpretation is not vague. When used for the purpose of breaking a prisoner, waterboarding is uneqivocally torture. You may not be condoning it, but by introducing doubt into the definition you blur the line in the exact same way that the Bush administration tried to.
________________
I readily admit, however, that if actionable intelligence was rendered out of Khalid Sheik Mohammed that saved lives (as has been all but confirmed)via waterboarding, then I am conflicted. Working in a high rise and spending what seems like one-third of one’s life in the New York City subway system may play into that. I understand the arguement that we stoop to the level of the terrorists by waterboarding them, but it’s not that simple. I too want America to prosecute this war in the most dignified and by-the-book manner as possible, but KSM and al-Qaeda have masterfully cloaked themselves with the Constitution. They are the ones that deserve to hang, not President Bush.
January 15th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
___________
It has never been confirmed that actionable intelligence was obtained from Khalid via waterboarding. It has only been asserted. And even if it was the case, it is not justified. It has nothing to do with “stooping to the level of the terrorists”. The fact is that there are far more effective means of obtaining this information that do not involve torture, and it is impossible for you to assert that torture was the ONLY WAY this actionable intelligence could have been obtained.
And, as we’re seeing in the al-Qahtani case, the act of torturing a prisoner taints the evidence of any future legal case against them. We may indeed have to let the 20th hijacker go free, because we cannot prosecute him. Al-Qa’ida is not cloaking themselves in the Constitution. The Bush Administration, through a mixture of bloodlust and incompetence, has put al-Qa’ida detainees in this position, while simultaneously inspiring more recruitment to al-Qa’ida and its sister organizations than ever before.
If you’re so concerned because you work in a high-rise and ride the subway, then your anger should be addressed to the Bush Administration for inspiring the al-Qa’ida cells that will carry out the next attack.
January 15th, 2009 at 1:41 pmUncle Ho Says:
Katy; thanks for the link to Brillo.
He said (and I QUOTE) We need to give the benefit of the doubt to our leaders in a time of war
I can not help but think that’s the same thing said by apologists for Hitler/Goering.
January 15th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
—
I think Billo only says that about Republican leaders. He will vilify any Dem that acts the way that Bush/Cheney et al have acted. Luckily, Dems believe in the rule of law… well, most of them.
January 15th, 2009 at 1:49 pmNow I can feel the CHANGE!!!!
January 15th, 2009 at 1:51 pmAnd Bush has shredded the Constitution with your blessing on the premise that doing so will keep you safe. You are a coward.
January 15th, 2009 at 1:52 pmHolder is correct about torture and other countries would be violating international law if they waterboarded U.S. citizensv which this is a total opposite of Mukasey’s confirmation hearing testimony as AG. All I can say to Father Time Specter is suck on that.
January 15th, 2009 at 2:03 pmSo, Nettie…?
I’m still waiting for you to explain why we hanged Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American prisoners — and yet you excuse Americans for waterboarding prisoners…?
Please explain to me in detail why that’s different, eh?
January 15th, 2009 at 2:07 pmhussein toasterhead, may I add that the techniques used on al-Qahtani may not have been as harsh as waterboarding (which in itself is defined as torture). The extreme duration of the inerrogations (18-20 hours a day) along with the frequency of these techniques used on him(something like 48 out of 52 days in a row) is what led Susan Crawford to reach the conclusion that he was, indeed tortured. These interrogations were directly approved by Don Rumsfeld. She determined that he could not be prosecuted due to the taint on this case, as well as on “everything going forward”. So it seems that nettles’ defense of what has been occuring in Gitmo is fatally flawed. The waterboarding defenders out there can scream until they are blue in the face that it is not torture, but they cannot now deny that torture is being applied at Gitmo.
ps nettles- I am a native New Yorker and also spend much of my time riding the subways. That said, you sound like you wet your pants on a daily basis worrying about the next attack. It seems that the terrorists have succeeded in your case. It also appears that the Republicans use of domestic terror in their unending use of fear to terrify the Nation in order to progress their agenda in the ME has also had quite an influence on you. May I suggest that you seek professional help. I mean c’mon, are you really going to spend the rest of your life pissing your pants every time you see a middle easterner on the A train?
January 15th, 2009 at 2:11 pmstateofthedivision Says:
“No one is above the law”
but they can be above punishment imposed via a Presidential pardon. Recall Richard Nixon?
Unfortunately Bush can’t pardon himself. And if he somehow does pardon everyone, there’s always the Hague. I don’t think that our US laws apply to international crimes.
January 15th, 2009 at 2:17 pmGood point, Bilbo. The Australian article said Bush and his minions could be subject to trials in other countries, much like Chile’s Pinochet.
Funny thing, Jim Cramer said last night (in relation to Bernie Madoff) that Paraguay was one of the few countries without an extradition treaty with the U.S. Guess where Bush purchased a huge estate? Paraguay.
January 15th, 2009 at 2:25 pmstateofthedivision Says:
Funny thing, Jim Cramer said last night (in relation to Bernie Madoff) that Paraguay was one of the few countries without an extradition treaty with the U.S. Guess where Bush purchased a huge estate? Paraguay.
January 15th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
____________
Paraguay has also recently elected a very liberal president who’s much friendlier to neighbors like Hugo Chavez and Evo Morales. Somehow I don’t believe Bush will be staying with the permission of the Paraguayan government.
Wouldn’t it be some sweet justice if Bush were arrested in Paraguay as an illegal immigrant?
January 15th, 2009 at 2:32 pmHanshiro , toasterhead , great posts ! Katy thanx for the link to billo .
January 15th, 2009 at 2:35 pmO/T I was thinking of going to morocco from Spain with my family but I believe the Gaza offensive just altered my plans for Tangier and Marrakesh .
Anyone care to encourage me ? I will probably just end up looking at Africa from Gibraltar and Islamic culture at the Alhambra.
Moor to come .
I never realized how much I missed (or like) hearing these 6 words:
January 15th, 2009 at 2:41 pm“No one is above the law.”
Actually, Colen powell was in Afganistan in July before 9/11 and offered them money to put a pipeline across their country, when they balked he told them the pipeline was going through and that the US would carpet them with money or carpet them with bombs….their choice…..
one month later……..
Too bad you can’t call that a lie.
January 15th, 2009 at 3:01 pmNettles believes that the US government stocked to the hilt with neo conservatives and oil profiteers invaded Iraq because of it support of al qaeda .
January 15th, 2009 at 3:07 pmForgets that the US has repeatedly interfered with and actually overthrown the government of Iran and backed a brutal dictatorship in a war which took over a million lives against it .
The PNAC , wrote a confession before it even got around to orchestrating the crime !READ ALL ABOUT IT !
hanshiro Says:
Whoa!
Not so fast, kiddies. Obama ain’t planning on prosecuting squat! (via Greenwald)
So everything that Greenwald says is true and all predictions he makes will come to pass?
I believe that the Justice Department will prosecute the crimes they uncover and I believe that they will go after those who ordered the crimes, not those who followed orders and committed the crime. This is how it should work. The people who ordered the crimes at Abu Ghraib should have been the ones to be prosecuted, not the grunts who were following orders.
January 15th, 2009 at 3:18 pmfreeman Says:
O/T I was thinking of going to morocco from Spain with my family but I believe the Gaza offensive just altered my plans for Tangier and Marrakesh .
Anyone care to encourage me ? I will probably just end up looking at Africa from Gibraltar and Islamic culture at the Alhambra.
Moor to come .
January 15th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
___________
I’ll give it a shot.
Marrakech is approximately 2,500 miles from Gaza. Yes, there may be many Moroccan Arabs and Amazigh Muslims who sympathize with the plight of the people of Gaza and are highly critical of U.S. policy towards Israel and the Palestinians. However, they are also perfectly capable of separating their political views about our foreign policy – with which you’d probably agree – and their views of tourists who make the trip to their country.
When my wife and I visited Morocco last year, we never once felt that we were being treated with an ounce of disrespect for being American or for not being Muslim. Most people were extremely helpful and hospitable and friendly, and very accepting of other cultures and religions.
Were there some rude people we encountered? Sure. But not for political reasons – just financial ones. It’s a poor country, and there are lots of people who will try to take advantage of a naive tourist who doesn’t know how to bargain. There were also people who would helpfully offer incorrect directions to landmarks and then demand a hundred dirhams in baksheesh as payment. You should take the same type of precautions you would take in any developing country – watch your wallet, don’t flash your cash, and learn how to say “no, thanks” in the local language (laa, shukran).
And it’s also true that there’s an active al-Qa’ida affiliate group in Morocco, that has successfully carried out attacks in Rabat and other places, but then there’s also an active Basque separatist movement in Spain that’s just as deadly, if not more so. In either place, you’ll have far more to worry about from speeding mopeds and insane taxi drivers than terrorists.
So I’d say go for it – unequivocally. Don’t let fear stop you from visiting a beautiful and amazing place that will open your mind to another world. The food is amazing, the markets are mindblowing, the sights and colors and smells are fantastic, and the echoing calls to prayer are simply hypnotic. Go.
January 15th, 2009 at 3:19 pmNettles Says:
You are correct. There’s no difference. The terrorists are free to exectute any American soldier they like for waterboarding one of their own. I’m sure they’ll probably pass though, as they are such strict followers of the Geneva Convention.
The problem is if we sanction torture that means that the “terrorists” are free to torture our soldiers with impunity. We could hardly complain, could we?
If I was a parent of a soldier, that one thing that Bush has done would be the one that would make me hate him the most. He has exposed our soldiers, all over the world, with the prospect of being tortured if they are captured.
January 15th, 2009 at 3:22 pmWouldn’t it be some sweet justice if Bush were arrested in Paraguay as an illegal immigrant?
Hussein Toasterhead, thanks for the chuckle.
January 15th, 2009 at 3:22 pmNettles Says:
See ToasterHead the difference betw you and I is that you probably found a convienient exuse to blame America for the atrocities of 9/11 (like that our soldiers actually stepped on Arabian sand in the early 90s, heaven forbid). I call it what it is: madness; the same thing that drove Hitler.
January 15th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
_____________
Madness?
So you think the thing that drives people like Hitler or bin Laden is some sort of chemical imbalance?
Now who’s being silly?
I put blame where blame is due, and the United States shares in the blame for 9/11. We exploited Islamic extremism when it suited us to defeat the Soviets, then abandoned Afghanistan and let the country turn into a training ground for al-Qa’ida. We also have a history of supporting despotic dictators, in the Middle East and elsewhere, in an utterly transparent resource grab. And we have a history of unconditional support for Israel and its genocidal behavior towards the Palestinians.
All these are legitimate gripes that people in the Muslim world and the Middle East have against the United States, and by not addressing and correcting them in our foreign policy we help fuel the extremism that produces groups like al-Qa’ida.
Now, al-Qa’ida also gets some of the blame for 9/11 – or credit, from their persective. They see themselves as righteous warriors fighting against an evil hegemony. That’s not insanity or madness, any more than an American soldier is insane for serving in Iraq or Afghanistan. I vehemently oppose their tactics, as do most people in the world. In fact, most jihadi groups also oppose the tactics used by al-Qa’ida and their affiliates in New York and London and Madrid and Mumbai.
However, it’s not madness. Madness doesn’t drive people to strap on a bomb vest and blow themselves up in a crowd of people. Anger, perhaps. But mostly it’s belief in the righteousness of their action and their sacrifice.
January 15th, 2009 at 3:33 pmHanshiro said “The corporations chose him long before the race began. He got millions from industry. You were believing it was a race; yet somehow, the corrupt press “couldn’t lay a glove on Obama” right? You a Frank Capra fan?
The latest chapter, on the redesign of the global financial system, is being written by Carlyle Group co-founder David Rubenstein. How might private equity come out? His fellow founder William Conway hate a level playing field. How will David tilt the deck for PEU’s (private equity underwriters?
January 15th, 2009 at 3:41 pmThe world is not a happy place. We despite some people on this lists disappointment, are Americans. Would it be a wonderful place if we didn’t have war? certainly. I’m sure everyone in the world would prefer this. The reality is our world sucks. We have millions if not billions of people living in poverty with no chance at climbing out of it. Wealth is becoming increasingly concentrated in the hands of a few. If we can’t fix the base reasons for conflict, we have no chance of preventing war crimes. With this sad reality in mind, I have no choice but to take a darwinian approach to world affairs. If we’re the strongest and can take whatever it is we need so be it. Is it wrong? Yes. Is it moral? No. But I will not make my nation play by rules that others refuse to. No nation in the world takes any other approach, why would it be appropriate for us to. Indicting Bush or any of his administration is a foolish short-sighted mistake that would eventually lead all future US leaders to being indicted. Even the most Peace Loving amongst them would be forced at one point or another to break a law whether domestic or international in the interests of US Security. The CIA’s very existence indicates a REGULAR and routine infraction against foreign nations anti-espionage laws. Everyone here that feels we should hang or prosecute or imprison ANY American political or military figure needs to look at the ramifications and implications of such an act, and realize Senator Obama soon to be President Obama will probably at some point break a national or international law to protect YOU!
January 15th, 2009 at 4:07 pmSo, Nettie – let me get this straight…
You’re saying that it’s OK for US to torture prisoners because terrorists do it too…?
Um, sweetheart, doesn’t that make US terrorists also…?
January 15th, 2009 at 4:07 pmNettles Says:
They are the ones that deserve to hang, not President Bush.
Sorry, wrong again, if Bush ordered torture and even one person died because of torture, he is eligible for the death penalty under international and US LAW
Again, what part of “No one is above the law” do you not understand?
—————-
US Code TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 113C >
§ 2340A. Torture
(a) Offense.— Whoever outside the United States commits or attempts to commit torture shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if death results to any person from conduct prohibited by this subsection, shall be punished by death or imprisoned for any term of years or for life.
January 15th, 2009 at 4:07 pm(b) Jurisdiction.— There is jurisdiction over the activity prohibited in subsection (a) if—
(1) the alleged offender is a national of the United States; or
(2) the alleged offender is present in the United States, irrespective of the nationality of the victim or alleged offender.
(c) Conspiracy.— A person who conspires to commit an offense under this section shall be subject to the same penalties (other than the penalty of death) as the penalties prescribed for the offense, the commission of which was the object of the conspiracy.
99 – there’s a definition of what you’re advocating, dear:
ANARCHY
And it isn’t pretty.
January 15th, 2009 at 4:09 pmNettles Says:
Simply pointing out that the interpretation is vague does not mean that I condone it.
The interpretation is quite clear. “Simply pointing out that it is vague” creates doubt that we know whether something is torture, and whether it’s illegal. The purpose of creating such doubt is to attempt to decriminalize torture.
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Nettles Says:
I readily admit, however, that if actionable intelligence was rendered out of Khalid Sheik Mohammed that saved lives (as has been all but confirmed)via waterboarding, then I am conflicted.
“Has been all but confirmed,” or “has been repeated baselessly by neocons?” Sources, please.
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Nettles Says:
I understand the arguement that we stoop to the level of the terrorists by waterboarding them, but it’s not that simple. I too want America to prosecute this war in the most dignified and by-the-book manner as possible…
It is in fact really that simple. Either we are America or we have nothing to fight for. I choose the former option always.
Right-wingers often claim to be patriots. I submit that patriotism necessitates courage – that is, the willingness to assume risk – to defend the principles upon which one’s country is founded. The approach of violating the constitution for safety amounts to cowardice. We should defend our country not only from foreign enemies who would do us harm, but also defend our country from domestic enemies who would do harm to the very principles that define America.
As Ben Franklin put it, “Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.”
Consider the Presidential oath of office, then consider this President’s actions.
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Nettles Says:
…but KSM and al-Qaeda have masterfully cloaked themselves with the Constitution.
No, the Constitution is what it always has been. They haven’t performed any special maneuvers to “cloak themselves” in it. Bush is the one performing special maneuvers to avoid its requirements.
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Nettles Says:
Unlike you, however, i will not be laying the blame of future attacks on our government, but on the actual perpetrators.
See ToasterHead the difference betw you and I is that you probably found a convienient exuse to blame America for the atrocities of 9/11 (like that our soldiers actually stepped on Arabian sand in the early 90s, heaven forbid). I call it what it is: madness; the same thing that drove Hitler. Does Hitler get an excuse for his actions from you as well?
I blame the perpetrators for their actions. I blame the government for how it responds to the perpetrators; that is, its actions or inactions.
Also, Hitler tortured people.
That’s the weird thing, that you can write off a major movement among a large population as just “madness.” Like the thousands of people joining terrorist networks are merely mentally insane, and the millions more who passively support them are suffering from neurosis. That diagnosis is profoundly retarded. All “madness” is, is a word saying that you don’t understand how a population can want to do us harm, and furthermore that you refuse to find out. Now, I suppose you have the right to be willfully ignorant – or “intellectually incurious,” as you people prefer to call it. But don’t go blaming your willful ignorance on the rest of the world. And don’t go supporting real foreign policy that affects real people based on it.
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Nettles Says:
I disagree, Toasterhead, but yours is a very well written post.
*PUNT!*
January 15th, 2009 at 4:13 pmreasonaboveall Says:
Everyone here that feels we should hang or prosecute or imprison ANY American political or military figure needs to look at the ramifications and implications of such an act, and realize Senator Obama soon to be President Obama will probably at some point break a national or international law to protect YOU!
January 15th, 2009 at 4:07 pm
______________
And if President Obama does so, I will most certainly be calling for his resignation or impeachment. I’d rather us be a nation of laws that occasionally gets attacked, than a safe fascist dictatorship.
January 15th, 2009 at 4:17 pmYes. Is it moral? No. But I will not make my nation play by rules that others refuse to. No nation in the world takes any other approach, why would it be appropriate for us to.
Because we are supposed to be a light of freedom, and democracy around the world. That was the essence of Reagan’s “Shining City on the Hill” rhetoric: that we provide an example that other, lesser nations should use as guidance. Now you’re telling me it’s no longer true? Republicans will have to come up with another reason for other nations to follow our lead, if that’s the case.
January 15th, 2009 at 4:37 pm104 I’m happy you cling to your ideals. I share the principles and agree we should all be nice people. Unfortunately I can’t help but see the world the way it is and has always been. Not 1 President has ever achieved your level of idealism upon accepting the position. Nor will one in the future. When other nations and groups play by a different set of rules, it is impossible to win without leveling the playing field. Consider your chances of winning a game of battleship when your opponent gets to look at where you put your pieces and you have to play fair. Who is going to win? Yes they cheated and everyone can know that, but that won’t change the fact they sunk all your ships. GeoPolitical affairs work the same way. ANYTHING that gives you an advantage you must do in order not to lose. EVERY leader must accept this sacrifice of personal morals for the sake of national security.
January 15th, 2009 at 4:37 pmreasonaboveall, if you hate America so much, why don’t you move to a country that doesn’t have guaranteed rights and standards for the rule of law? I hear the populace is really safe from terrorism in Myanmar right now.
January 15th, 2009 at 4:46 pmSo, UNreasonaboveall (I’ve corrected your name to fit your opinion, BTW) – you’re advocating that we become a whole world full of Dirty Harrys – administering any sort of justice we see fit to administer at any time we see fit to administer it – up to and including torture and preemptive war and murder – to get what we want (presumably world peace)?
So, dear, please explain to me – as it relates to your worldwide “Dirty Harry” scenario at #106 – just exactly how are we different from the terrorists who (viewed in terms of your world scenario at #106, i.e., anything goes to get what you want), are simply trying to impose *their* views on the rest of the world order using their method (”terrorism”)?
Isn’t that the same method you are advocating that we use to advance ours…? Again, how are we different from the terrorists?
January 15th, 2009 at 4:55 pmSorry, reasonaboveall but leveling the playing field is what all the laws against torture is about. After the horrors of WWII it became obvious that something needed to be done and it was. Yes, there is a price to pay and no, it doesn’t happen overnight.
But it will never happen if the people who believe, who know it is right, give up. If the US, the strongest bastion, folds because of fear of a handful of malcontents it doesn’t say much for us.
January 15th, 2009 at 5:00 pmThanx for the advise toast , my wife wholeheartedly agrees ! If I didn’t have 3 kids in tow and Israel hadn’t just invaded the Gaza strip , i wouldn’t have thought twice .
January 15th, 2009 at 5:00 pmWill let you know how it turns out .
Inshallah .
reasonaboveall Says:
Consider your chances of winning a game of battleship when your opponent gets to look at where you put your pieces and you have to play fair. Who is going to win? Yes they cheated and everyone can know that, but that won’t change the fact they sunk all your ships. GeoPolitical affairs work the same way. ANYTHING that gives you an advantage you must do in order not to lose. EVERY leader must accept this sacrifice of personal morals for the sake of national security.
January 15th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
__________
Geopolitical affairs is in fact nothing even remotely like a game of Battleship. Just FYI.
We don’t live in an anarchic every-country-for-itself world anymore. That sort of thing began to die out in the early 20th century when we formed the United Nations and began using diplomacy to solve international problems instead of war.
Is it a perfect system? No. Do wars still happen? Yes. But the fact is that we have a framework for solving international conflicts that can avoid the type of take-what-you-can aggression you recommend.
The thing that doesn’t work is empire – that’s the “darwinian” system you profess. Empires die out. Rome did. The Ottomans did. The British and the French empires did. Ours is next, and hopefully will be the last.
January 15th, 2009 at 5:17 pmTo All:
During the last eight years we have seen many civil liberties weakened in the name of “security”. Wiretaps, torture, and holding prisoners outside the system of judicial protection are but three examples.
I am disappointed that no one in Congress who opposed these infringements has made the following points (at least in my hearing):
1. Upholding our civil liberties is an inviolate principle. Admittedly, upholding them in all cases may make our ability to keep the nation secure harder. What is necessary then is increased competence on the part of our national security people to compensate. (Competence has certainly been in short supply, hasn’t it?)
2. Bin Laden must look upon our transgressions as a great victory in what is essentially a war of minds. His followers have succeeded in making the American people commit immoral acts which have made us lose a large measure of our self respect, as well as respect from other peoples of the world. They have made us abandon some of our basic principles. Just imagine that happening to us, the strongest nation in the world.
3. We elected this administration and this Congress and allowed them to stay in office, so we are ALL accountable for what has happened.
January 15th, 2009 at 5:20 pmHey, Nettie – try wrapping your head around this – pretend for a moment that you’re an Iraqi and have a read of your own words (I know it’s hard, but do try, won’t you, dear?):
You can call it what you want El B, but no one will ever be able to explain to me the justification for “Shock and Awe”. You and “you people” are free to think that we deserved what we got that morning, and I’m free to think that you’re a pompous know-it-all, holier-than-thou horse’s ass.
See? It’s all in how you look at it, sweetbuns.
January 15th, 2009 at 5:22 pmNettles Says:
You can call it what you want El B, but no one will ever be able to explain to me the justification for 9/11.
So you admit that you are incapable of understanding important factors in world affairs. OK. Then stop talking about what the USA should do.
I’m not justifying it. But I do have some idea of what their justification is. And I understand how that justification sounds in the ears of citizens of countries that don’t trust us. Ignorance is not virtue.
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Nettles Says:
I’m free to think that you’re a pompous know-it-all, holier-than-thou horse’s ass.
You’re actually probably correct in this. However, the fact remains that I’m still right, and you are wrong. That must really suck for you; I would really hate to be repeatedly and thoroughly proven wrong by someone as obnoxious as me.
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Nettles Says:
And yes, the “millions who passively support” those who perpetrated 9/11 are, if not certifiably mentally insane, pitiful. Nothing more. Their sad lives have led them to hate what America stands for.
“My life sucks, I think I’ll hate America.” No, that doesn’t make any sense… How about “America has made my life suck, I think I’ll hate America.” That has a certain logic to it. Not great logic, but at least it’s not completely arbitrary. We might want to consider not making peoples’ lives suck.
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Nettles Says:
Thank You for proving my point that this has nothing to do with “moving America forward” and everything to do with yours and “your people’s” personal vitriol for W.
What I can’t seem to make you understand is that hatred isn’t something that just happens to people, like puberty or lightning. People don’t get mad at other people for no reason. Their reasons may not be good, but they do have some. In my case, I have a long list of extremely good reasons to be upset with Bush and his entire administration.
January 15th, 2009 at 5:36 pmWhy not, Nettie?
I – along with millions of Iraqis and Muslims all over the world – consider “Shock and Awe” to be an “unprovoked attack” upon the sovereign nation and citizens of Iraq.
It has been proven over and over and over again that Saddam Hussein had NOTHING to do with 9/11. NOTHING. No WMD. No connections with Al Qaeda. NOTHING. There was no reason for us to attack Iraq – other than neocon greed.
Why is that so hard for you to accept, eh?
And you’re truly stupid if you believe that any of us believe that 9/11 was “justified” – that’s just more of your retarded wingnut rhetoric.
Understanding the causes of events – like the attack on 9/11 – is a tool that can be used to prevent them from happening again. Only wingnuts and morons don’t understand that – and I believe you qualify on both those counts.
January 15th, 2009 at 6:57 pmLSA, the problem with your comment is that wingnuts don’t understand the following words: sovereign, reason, proven, rhetoric, understanding, prevent. They just hear “blablabla” at those points. So your response wouldn’t make much sense to Nettles.
January 15th, 2009 at 7:16 pmI’m simply trying to point out how preposterous it is for a nation to try its own government for war crimes. WAR ITSELF is a crime against humanity. Trying leaders that go to war makes no sense. Let me be clear though: it makes no sense to try American leader or those of other nations. I do not support the prosecution of ANY political or military figure from ANY country or group. When you fight you fight to win. I find it amusing that everyone here seems to think there is a right and a wrong way of waging the greatest possible crime against humanity. War is wrong, but if you’re going to do it, you do it to win and without remorse.
January 15th, 2009 at 10:11 pmreasonaboveall Says:
Sorry dude, I can’t find reason in anything you just said…
January 15th, 2009 at 10:19 pmI’m incredibly amused by the people that post here. I’m accused of being an anarchist as well as hating America and i believe a warmonger, because I oppose bowing to academic ideas regarding what is right and wrong for a nation to do? Another individual states that the UN is a framework for solving world disputes and that nations do not think of themselves before all others??? What kind of brainwashed mass is this? EVERY nation thinks of themselves first and usually exclusively. Otherwise we wouldn’t have world hunger, vaccinations against childhood illnesses would have a world mandate, and genocide/war crimes would create such an outcry that every nation would oppose and intervene on behalf of the attacked. SADLY this does NOT happen. The UN has never in its history successfully prevented a conflict from taking place, nor will it. For the individual that believes my position makes us no different than the terrorists…you are correct. We are no different. We are humans, we have flawed belief systems, we are convinced of our righteousness, and blind to the perspectives of others. Those of “our” people that disagree with us we label whether it be GOPIGS, treehuggers, or apostates. We are no different, we simply have a separation of semantics.
January 15th, 2009 at 10:20 pmMy apologies, reasonaboveall, I have not read enough of your posts to understand your syntax.
January 15th, 2009 at 10:41 pmI’m doing a little better now, please continue.
In all sincerity, I believe we share similar views
my view is simple, people here neglect reality and choose to adopt a set of values that in fairness are wonderful but tragically implausible for the realities of the world we live in. I oppose torture and find it heinous, I oppose war because it is a crime against humanity. I will not however choose to have my nation led by values that do not take into consideration what happens in the real world. throughout history from the origins of our species, people have fought to take what others have. We are no more civilized now than we are then except in our own minds. We will never stop taking from each other and those most willing to go to an extreme will always win. I do not believe in losing, and advocate therefore whatever means necessary to preserve our nation. I’m still opposed to the activities it will take but only morally. Ethically we have a responsibility to our fellow citizens to preserve our nation and our hegemony.
January 15th, 2009 at 10:47 pmEthically we have a responsibility to our fellow citizens to preserve our nation and our hegemony.
—
January 15th, 2009 at 11:58 pmCome again? Why do you think this so? Did you not just say that winning at any cost is more important than ethics and morality? I think you misread our phylogeny. The fact is that we may not be the blood thirsty apes you have been taught. In light of more rcent interpretations of the fossil record as well as the behavior of primates such as the bonobo, many of these outdated assumptions are being reassessed.
123.reasonaboveall Says: Ethically we have a responsibility to our fellow citizens to preserve our nation and our hegemony.
How imperial of you.
We will never stop taking from each other and those most willing to go to an extreme will always win.
You mean like Rome…no wait, they fell.
You mean like the Nazis….wait, that didn’t work out either..
You mean like the British Empire, y’know, the sun never sets on…um..that crashed and burned too…
Soviet Union?…nah, they broke up…
My, what a collection of empire-building ‘winners;’ (though we do share the eagle symbol with both Rome and Nazi Germany.) I’ll leave you with a poem by Shelly. In place of “Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!” you can substitute, “whatever means necessary to preserve our nation.” It always ends the same way, particularly since we aren’t the ‘good guys’ we present ourselves to be:
OZYMANDIAS
I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,
Half sunk, a shatter’d visage lies, whose frown
And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamp’d on these lifeless things,
The hand that mock’d them and the heart that fed.
And on the pedestal these words appear:
“My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!”
Nothing beside remains: round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.
Oh, and change your name…there’s nothing reasonable about your position. Maybe ‘desperaterationale,’ or ‘allbowtous/byforceifnecessary.’ It’s a better fit, no?
January 16th, 2009 at 12:57 amNettles Says:
Grow up. Let justice be done though the heavens fall. It is always lets forget about the past when its a conservative who has commited crimes and attrocities. It isnt bloodlust FOOL. It is the rule of LAW. No man is above the law. The ONLY thing that will make the next president think twice about considering the Constitution to be a list of suggestions and saying he will break the laws of the land AND human decency is if we hold THIS president accountable for doing so. THAT is the reason you DONT want him held accountable. You WANT a Pharoah. People like you cant WAIT to put the chains on and rid yourself of all freedom. Also THIS president put a blot on our nations honor. To rid ourselves OF that stain we hold him accountable and say Torturing people is NOT America. As for your whiny appology for waterboarding you are full of it. It was considered torture when we put Japanese in PRISON for waterboarding OUR soldiers it was considered torture when during Vietnam we courtmartialed two American soldiers seen in a photo just WATCHING it happen without stopping it. It was torture when it was used during the Spanish Inquisitions. The ONLY people who ever said it wasnt torture are those without decency that would say ANYTHING no matter how stupid to protect this administration from any accountability
January 16th, 2009 at 1:07 amNettles Says: 69
OK then perhaps I was a bit harsh in my answer. My points however still stand. Since WE considered it torture and put OTHERS in prison for waterboarding there is no possible way to say it is vague and we dont consider it torture NOW. Unless we hold ourselves to the same standard we hold others we are not even PRETENDING to a moral or ethical standard
January 16th, 2009 at 1:10 amreasonaboveall Says:
You are not reasonable at ALL. Trying members of the government for starting a war of aggression is EXACTLY what we did at Nuremberg. In fact it is what whe HANGED most of the Nazis for. We absolutly must hold ourselves to the same standards we hold others to as OUR OWN JUDGE AT NURMEBERG SAID AT THE TIME. Your post was logic free.
January 16th, 2009 at 1:11 amreasonaboveall Says:
I cant believe the total lack of awareness and reality in your post. By that spurious logic since I have the ABILITY to rob a bank or murder my neighbors and steal thier stuff I SHOULD DO IT. You have no decency. None at all. Who says other countries dont follow those rules? Russia, France Germany any of those countries could EASILY roll right over Brazil and take their abundant natural resources but they dont. You are a sociopath. Seek the help of a mental health professional IMMEDIATLY
January 16th, 2009 at 1:16 amreasonaboveall Says: 123
Dude. You are sick. Seek help immediatly
January 16th, 2009 at 1:18 amreasonaboveall Says:
Besides all the other things that are wrong with you and your sick take on reality, and they are LEGION, your take is HObbes Choice. By saying we are only uncivilized animals and any moral restrictions we put on the world will not be followed and are fantasy so we shouldnt do it we ASSURE things remain that way. Only by TRYING to elevate the moral standards of foriegn policy will we ever know if we can. You are sick you need help
January 16th, 2009 at 1:20 amreasonaboveall Says:
I’m simply trying to point out how preposterous it is for a nation to try its own government for war crimes. WAR ITSELF is a crime against humanity. Trying leaders that go to war makes no sense.
Consider, which is worse: Hitler invading Poland, or England declaring war on Germany in response? Saddam invading Kuwait, or the United States pushing Iraq back to its borders? Using your National Defense defensively, either on behalf of your own nation or its allies, is just. Using your National Defense offensively to start wars that are not necessary, is not just. The concept of “war crimes” recognizes this. The reason it’s called a “Defense” Department also recognizes this; when the existence of a standing military is justified for defense and then used for offense, its own citizenry has been defrauded.
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reasonaboveall Says:
people here neglect reality and choose to adopt a set of values that in fairness are wonderful but tragically implausible for the realities of the world we live in. I oppose torture and find it heinous, I oppose war because it is a crime against humanity.
You do not oppose torture. You do not oppose war. You are lying when you say so. In no way do you make any kind of opposition clear whatsoever.
You simply believe that the condition of living in a world where we have to be evil because everybody else is evil is an insoluble problem. That’s pretty much the only argument evil has to justify itself, and it’s false.
What you may call pragmatism, I call cowardice. You’re unwilling to risk the proposition that the evil done by evil persons does not give them any long term advantage, but rather constitutes a strategic sacrifice, one which can only be exploited if you refrain from committing evil yourself. Furthermore, evil acts are not actually countered or mitigated by performing the same act. You can’t defend yourself from a murderer by murdering people, for instance.
January 16th, 2009 at 10:32 am