I’m simply trying to point out how preposterous it is for a nation to try its own government for war crimes. WAR ITSELF is a crime against humanity. Trying leaders that go to war makes no sense.

Consider, which is worse: Hitler invading Poland, or England declaring war on Germany in response? Saddam invading Kuwait, or the United States pushing Iraq back to its borders? Using your National Defense defensively, either on behalf of your own nation or its allies, is just. Using your National Defense offensively to start wars that are not necessary, is not just. The concept of “war crimes” recognizes this. The reason it’s called a “Defense” Department also recognizes this; when the existence of a standing military is justified for defense and then used for offense, its own citizenry has been defrauded.

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reasonaboveall Says:

people here neglect reality and choose to adopt a set of values that in fairness are wonderful but tragically implausible for the realities of the world we live in. I oppose torture and find it heinous, I oppose war because it is a crime against humanity.

You do not oppose torture. You do not oppose war. You are lying when you say so. In no way do you make any kind of opposition clear whatsoever.

You simply believe that the condition of living in a world where we have to be evil because everybody else is evil is an insoluble problem. That’s pretty much the only argument evil has to justify itself, and it’s false.

What you may call pragmatism, I call cowardice. You’re unwilling to risk the proposition that the evil done by evil persons does not give them any long term advantage, but rather constitutes a strategic sacrifice, one which can only be exploited if you refrain from committing evil yourself. Furthermore, evil acts are not actually countered or mitigated by performing the same act. You can’t defend yourself from a murderer by murdering people, for instance.

Besides all the other things that are wrong with you and your sick take on reality, and they are LEGION, your take is HObbes Choice. By saying we are only uncivilized animals and any moral restrictions we put on the world will not be followed and are fantasy so we shouldnt do it we ASSURE things remain that way. Only by TRYING to elevate the moral standards of foriegn policy will we ever know if we can. You are sick you need help

Dude. You are sick. Seek help immediatly

I cant believe the total lack of awareness and reality in your post. By that spurious logic since I have the ABILITY to rob a bank or murder my neighbors and steal thier stuff I SHOULD DO IT. You have no decency. None at all. Who says other countries dont follow those rules? Russia, France Germany any of those countries could EASILY roll right over Brazil and take their abundant natural resources but they dont. You are a sociopath. Seek the help of a mental health professional IMMEDIATLY

You are not reasonable at ALL. Trying members of the government for starting a war of aggression is EXACTLY what we did at Nuremberg. In fact it is what whe HANGED most of the Nazis for. We absolutly must hold ourselves to the same standards we hold others to as OUR OWN JUDGE AT NURMEBERG SAID AT THE TIME. Your post was logic free.

OK then perhaps I was a bit harsh in my answer. My points however still stand. Since WE considered it torture and put OTHERS in prison for waterboarding there is no possible way to say it is vague and we dont consider it torture NOW. Unless we hold ourselves to the same standard we hold others we are not even PRETENDING to a moral or ethical standard

Grow up. Let justice be done though the heavens fall. It is always lets forget about the past when its a conservative who has commited crimes and attrocities. It isnt bloodlust FOOL. It is the rule of LAW. No man is above the law. The ONLY thing that will make the next president think twice about considering the Constitution to be a list of suggestions and saying he will break the laws of the land AND human decency is if we hold THIS president accountable for doing so. THAT is the reason you DONT want him held accountable. You WANT a Pharoah. People like you cant WAIT to put the chains on and rid yourself of all freedom. Also THIS president put a blot on our nations honor. To rid ourselves OF that stain we hold him accountable and say Torturing people is NOT America. As for your whiny appology for waterboarding you are full of it. It was considered torture when we put Japanese in PRISON for waterboarding OUR soldiers it was considered torture when during Vietnam we courtmartialed two American soldiers seen in a photo just WATCHING it happen without stopping it. It was torture when it was used during the Spanish Inquisitions. The ONLY people who ever said it wasnt torture are those without decency that would say ANYTHING no matter how stupid to protect this administration from any accountability

How imperial of you.

We will never stop taking from each other and those most willing to go to an extreme will always win.

You mean like Rome…no wait, they fell.

You mean like the Nazis….wait, that didn’t work out either..

You mean like the British Empire, y’know, the sun never sets on…um..that crashed and burned too…

Soviet Union?…nah, they broke up…

My, what a collection of empire-building ‘winners;’ (though we do share the eagle symbol with both Rome and Nazi Germany.) I’ll leave you with a poem by Shelly. In place of “Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!” you can substitute, “whatever means necessary to preserve our nation.” It always ends the same way, particularly since we aren’t the ‘good guys’ we present ourselves to be:

OZYMANDIAS

I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,
Half sunk, a shatter’d visage lies, whose frown
And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamp’d on these lifeless things,
The hand that mock’d them and the heart that fed.
And on the pedestal these words appear:
“My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!”
Nothing beside remains: round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Oh, and change your name…there’s nothing reasonable about your position. Maybe ‘desperaterationale,’ or ‘allbowtous/byforceifnecessary.’ It’s a better fit, no?

—
Come again? Why do you think this so? Did you not just say that winning at any cost is more important than ethics and morality? I think you misread our phylogeny. The fact is that we may not be the blood thirsty apes you have been taught. In light of more rcent interpretations of the fossil record as well as the behavior of primates such as the bonobo, many of these outdated assumptions are being reassessed.

Sorry dude, I can’t find reason in anything you just said…

I – along with millions of Iraqis and Muslims all over the world – consider “Shock and Awe” to be an “unprovoked attack” upon the sovereign nation and citizens of Iraq.

It has been proven over and over and over again that Saddam Hussein had NOTHING to do with 9/11. NOTHING. No WMD. No connections with Al Qaeda. NOTHING. There was no reason for us to attack Iraq – other than neocon greed.

Why is that so hard for you to accept, eh?

And you’re truly stupid if you believe that any of us believe that 9/11 was “justified” – that’s just more of your retarded wingnut rhetoric.

Understanding the causes of events – like the attack on 9/11 – is a tool that can be used to prevent them from happening again. Only wingnuts and morons don’t understand that – and I believe you qualify on both those counts.

You can call it what you want El B, but no one will ever be able to explain to me the justification for 9/11.

So you admit that you are incapable of understanding important factors in world affairs. OK. Then stop talking about what the USA should do.

I’m not justifying it. But I do have some idea of what their justification is. And I understand how that justification sounds in the ears of citizens of countries that don’t trust us. Ignorance is not virtue.

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Nettles Says:

I’m free to think that you’re a pompous know-it-all, holier-than-thou horse’s ass.

You’re actually probably correct in this. However, the fact remains that I’m still right, and you are wrong. That must really suck for you; I would really hate to be repeatedly and thoroughly proven wrong by someone as obnoxious as me.

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Nettles Says:

And yes, the “millions who passively support” those who perpetrated 9/11 are, if not certifiably mentally insane, pitiful. Nothing more. Their sad lives have led them to hate what America stands for.

“My life sucks, I think I’ll hate America.” No, that doesn’t make any sense… How about “America has made my life suck, I think I’ll hate America.” That has a certain logic to it. Not great logic, but at least it’s not completely arbitrary. We might want to consider not making peoples’ lives suck.

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Nettles Says:

Thank You for proving my point that this has nothing to do with “moving America forward” and everything to do with yours and “your people’s” personal vitriol for W.

What I can’t seem to make you understand is that hatred isn’t something that just happens to people, like puberty or lightning. People don’t get mad at other people for no reason. Their reasons may not be good, but they do have some. In my case, I have a long list of extremely good reasons to be upset with Bush and his entire administration.

You can call it what you want El B, but no one will ever be able to explain to me the justification for “Shock and Awe”. You and “you people” are free to think that we deserved what we got that morning, and I’m free to think that you’re a pompous know-it-all, holier-than-thou horse’s ass.

See? It’s all in how you look at it, sweetbuns.

During the last eight years we have seen many civil liberties weakened in the name of “security”. Wiretaps, torture, and holding prisoners outside the system of judicial protection are but three examples.

I am disappointed that no one in Congress who opposed these infringements has made the following points (at least in my hearing):

1. Upholding our civil liberties is an inviolate principle. Admittedly, upholding them in all cases may make our ability to keep the nation secure harder. What is necessary then is increased competence on the part of our national security people to compensate. (Competence has certainly been in short supply, hasn’t it?)

2. Bin Laden must look upon our transgressions as a great victory in what is essentially a war of minds. His followers have succeeded in making the American people commit immoral acts which have made us lose a large measure of our self respect, as well as respect from other peoples of the world. They have made us abandon some of our basic principles. Just imagine that happening to us, the strongest nation in the world.

3. We elected this administration and this Congress and allowed them to stay in office, so we are ALL accountable for what has happened.

January 15th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
__________

Geopolitical affairs is in fact nothing even remotely like a game of Battleship. Just FYI.

We don’t live in an anarchic every-country-for-itself world anymore. That sort of thing began to die out in the early 20th century when we formed the United Nations and began using diplomacy to solve international problems instead of war.

Is it a perfect system? No. Do wars still happen? Yes. But the fact is that we have a framework for solving international conflicts that can avoid the type of take-what-you-can aggression you recommend.

The thing that doesn’t work is empire – that’s the “darwinian” system you profess. Empires die out. Rome did. The Ottomans did. The British and the French empires did. Ours is next, and hopefully will be the last.