Congress Pressures Obama To Extend Unnecessary F-22 Program, Claims It’s ‘Too Big To Fail’
Congress Pressures Obama To Extend Unnecessary F-22 Program, Claims It’s ‘Too Big To Fail’
Boeing and Lockheed Martin have been “pouring money into a publicity campaign” and stepping up congressional lobbying efforts to maintain funding for the Air Force’s F-22 Raptor.
Their efforts appear to be paying off. 200 members of the House and 44 members of the Senate have signed letters to President Obama urging him to extend the $62 billion F-22 Raptor program. Currently, the Air Force has funds to purchase 183 of the stealth aircraft, “but the letter says, ‘We are convinced that this number is insufficient to meet potential threats.’” The members write further that the jobs at stake make the program, as Matthew Yglesias recently paraphrased, “too big to fail”:
The F-22 program annually provides over $12 billion of economic activity to the national economy. … If this certification is not provided, layoffs will begin as this critical supplier base shuts down. … Over 25,000 Americans work for the 1,000+ suppliers in 44 states that manufacture the F-22. Moreover, it is estimated that another 70,000 additional Americans indirectly owe their jobs to this program.
Despite the Congressional appeals, continuing the F-22 program is not in the interest of U.S. national security. The Pentagon recently announced that they would need $8 billion to upgrade 100 F-22’s which are already in use. The aircraft is “proving very expensive to operate .. and it is complex to maintain,” the Pentagon explained. The aircraft’s readiness rate fell to 62 percent last year, which the Pentagon called “unsatisfactory.” Center for American Progress Senior Fellow Larry Korb summarized the arguments against the F-22 in a column in 2005:
The F/A-22 Raptor is the most unnecessary weapon system being built by the Pentagon. In fact, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld tried to do away with it in the summer of 2002 but backed off when his Air Force secretary threatened to resign over the issue. It was originally designed to achieve air superiority over Soviet fighter jets, which will never be built. … Over the last 20 years, the cost of the total program has continued to grow even as the number of planes to be purchased has declined.
If members of Congress are truly concerned with preserving American jobs, they should look elsewhere. Indeed, committing further funds to the F-22 program would divert scarce government dollars away from more economically beneficial forms of government spending.
As the Center for Economic and Policy Research found in 2007, “increased levels of military spending leads to fewer jobs and slower economic growth.” CEPR’s Dean Baker explained, “most economic models show that military spending diverts resources from productive uses, such as consumption and investment, and ultimately slows economic growth and reduces employment.”
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Let’s buy BSG Raptors. They have FTL capability ;-)
January 21st, 2009 at 2:34 pmBut Raygun defeated the commies!
January 21st, 2009 at 2:37 pmBut, but how are we going to be the hugest, most bloated Congressional Military Complex in the world without spending all our money on death and destruction? Answer me that.
/snarkity snark snark
January 21st, 2009 at 2:39 pmI’m surprised the GOP isn’t trying to get the Pentagon to build Airwolf helicopters or WOPR defense computers.
January 21st, 2009 at 2:42 pmI’ve heard that human ripping machines are a field of growth one should look out for. Did I mention health care?
January 21st, 2009 at 2:43 pm“Gates, who will stay on at the Pentagon’s helm under Obama, has repeatedly criticized the F-22 as a costly plane ill-suited to the most likely 21st century conflicts. By multiple accounts, Gates was livid when Air Force brass delivered the opposite message to Capitol Hill. Today, sources say Air Force leaders are not allowed to speak to Congress about the plane.”
Very interesting. I guess we’ll see who has more pull!
Thank you TP for this thread! “Defense” spending is out of control! And if it’s just jobs they’re worried about I hope that we can direct some of that money to jobs that produce more than pain and suffering.
January 21st, 2009 at 2:45 pmWe are convinced that this number is insufficient to meet potential threats.
That’s their jingle, ‘potential threats’. In essence, “Give me all your money to pad 2Q earnings or you’ll be seen as overlooking the ‘potential threats’ we concocted?”
Next up, the rechargeable Military Industrial Complex Robot Reminder.
January 21st, 2009 at 2:49 pmThreats from what?
January 21st, 2009 at 2:50 pmRogue Predator drones?
Pterodactyls?
Obama said he’d cut things that weren’t effective. Here’s a big, fat litmus test. If he’s got the political will to cut this, the cons might want to take notice that he’s actually willing to do what it takes to be financially prudent.
Oh wait, I forgot the military doesn’t count in their math.
January 21st, 2009 at 2:51 pmThe Obama hoopala is just whistling past the graveyard….the country is dead lets face it. Until the legislative body of this dying republic immunizes itself from the military-industrial complex and other special interests we are all doomed. Gee, Eisenhower was so right!
January 21st, 2009 at 2:51 pmDuring World War II, many consumer product factories were retrofitted to start producing war materials. It’s time to retrofit war manufacturers to produce products that are useful and helpful to the American people as well as for those outside our borders. We spend more on our military than any other country on the face of the planet, while our bridges and roads crumble. While our electrical transmission system sputters. We need to rebuild the manufacturing base in this country. If our entire economy depends on war manufacturing, (As these two corporations are claiming, evidently) then we are in far worse trouble than we thought. I’m sick to death of this “guns or butter” argument.
January 21st, 2009 at 2:52 pmUm…”too big to fail” means that we must continue making white elephants just to keep people employed? This sounds like a bottomless hole to pour government money into, which we don’t need right now.
If the number of F-22 craft we currently have is truly “insufficient to meet potential threats” (and I’m not yet convinced it is), then perhaps we should come up with an airplane that meets our needs better than the F-22.
If we really have enough fighter planes, then perhaps we can put people to work doing something else. The people who make airplanes are engineers, designers, scientists, and other people who are good at stuff. We need a lot of people who are good at stuff to work on things like sensible energy alternatives. Improving infrastructure. And other projects we need to get moving on that require technical and skilled labor workers.
Yes, a switch of that kind will hurt a little — it would require refitting, retooling, retraining, etc. But the alternative is to continue to crank out airplanes we don’t need at great expense just to keep people employed — in perpetuity.
January 21st, 2009 at 2:53 pmThanks, mary. After just passing a bill banning WH staffers from lobbying, I don’t think Obama will be in any mood to take up the funding request of 44 Boeing sheep. Gates and Orzag (sp?) will officially propose to cut the BS, and Obama will listen.
January 21st, 2009 at 2:54 pmBeing willing to cut defense spending might give some incentive to the contractors to find other ways in which to leverage their technology and manufacturing capabilities in the private sector. It’s not like all of those jobs would instantly go away; they’d lose some, sure, but they’d do some transitioning. If Obama slashes one big line item like this, the other contractors may realize that maybe they’d better diversify their production to some things that aren’t completely reliant on military spending.
That means more products, and a more vigorous private sector.
January 21st, 2009 at 2:55 pmUm, if $62 billion in spending is needed to keep 25k direct and approx. 70k indirect jobs, doesn’t that work out to over $620,000 per job?
And isn’t this the very same argument the GOPers plan to use to reject the upcoming Obama stimulus package?
Just asking…
PEACE
January 21st, 2009 at 2:56 pmSuch systems may be “unnecessary.”
But they give everybody around them a HUGE chubby.
And they provide JOBS!!!
Maybe not the case of the f-22, but with the B-2, some part of the plane is either fabricated, or tested, or shipped from, or installed by at least one company in every Congressional District in the country–all 435 of them. This makes the program indestructible, unless it is replaced by something equally catholic…
January 21st, 2009 at 2:56 pmWhat gets me is the perpetual hole in the pork barrel logic.
If we build something we don’t need, we are diverting funds and resources from things that we DO need. The $62 billion doesn’t dissappear – it gets shifted to needed priorities.
What does disappear is the percentage of that $62 billion which is going to executive salaries. The part that doesn’t help the economy (unless you’re a true believer in trickle down).
You want to stimulate the economy, here is a direct $250 for every man woman and child which can be used to buy basic necessities.
January 21st, 2009 at 2:58 pmmisshusseinmolly Says:
But the alternative is to continue to crank out airplanes we don’t need at great expense just to keep people employed — in perpetuity.
Exactly. The question to government shouldn’t be is it more spending, or is it less spending, but is it smart spending. I believe Obama mentioned something along those lines in his inaugural speech… ah, here it is: “The question we ask today is not whether our government is too big or too small, but whether it works.”
January 21st, 2009 at 2:58 pmSeems to me that the problem here is that you gotta put ‘em to work doing something somebody ELSE can make money off of for doing nothing much: investors and such…
January 21st, 2009 at 3:00 pmIt is really, really hard to imagine fighting a prolonged air war against either Russia or China, and those are the only adversaries we would need more than 183 of these things for. If it comes to that, all bets are off, anyway. UAV are much better for the foes we currently face, to say nothing of cheaper.
It would be politically very hard for a new Democratic President who never served in the military to cancel a project like this. It would indeed be an act of political courage to do it. Has Obama made any public statements on this to date?
January 21st, 2009 at 3:02 pmJust how many F-22 Raptors does it take to shoot down a suitcase bomb?
January 21st, 2009 at 3:02 pmIf Lockheed hadn’t gotten the F22, they would have funded a satellite wirelss program with the company I worked for then called ViaSat.
It is thanks to the F22 that you don’t have wireless sateliite Internet everywhere in the United States.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:04 pmrobbez_92107 Says:
Just how many F-22 Raptors does it take to shoot down a suitcase bomb?
It depends on how many water bottles and shoes it has around it.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:06 pmWhat if they held a war and nobody came?
January 21st, 2009 at 3:10 pmI say cancel the contract and then give Lockheed Martin a contract to build wind turbines or some other green technology.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:17 pmKeltoi Says:
It would be politically very hard for a new Democratic President who never served in the military to cancel a project like this. It would indeed be an act of political courage to do it. Has Obama made any public statements on this to date?
You know Keltoi, you are a complete and total idiot. Just because Obama was not in the military does not disqualify him from making decisions that have to do with the military. He has his own point of view and unlike his predecessor, he will ask experts what they think and then make an intelligent rational decision.
I was so hoping that when your party got handed it’s hat and shown the door that you would have gone with them. Unfortunately you seem determined to sick around and continue to smell up the place.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:20 pmIt’s time to punt on the F22
The F35 is a much better fighter with a much better record, and it could fill multiple roles.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:21 pmI normally ignore your screeds, Matt, but I don’t want your shrieking to obscure what I am saying. The very simple point I was making is that someone with no background in military service has a more difficult political hill to climb when they cut the military budget. Of course he has the authority as well as the intelligence to prioritize; if you noted, I think he should cancel this extension. But it is going to be politically more difficult for him than it would have been for McCain. It is the “only Nixon can go to China effect.”
January 21st, 2009 at 3:21 pmIf members of Congress are truly concerned with preserving American jobs, they should look elsewhere. Indeed, committing further funds to the F-22 program would divert scarce government dollars away from more economically beneficial forms of government spending.
<MIC-speak>
But… but… but …. If we build Raptors and the bombs and missiles that hang off ‘em, they fall apart, and get shot down and crashed, or the bombs and missiles are dropped and exploded, and we get a continuing stream of demand for “product” which greases the wheels of the MIC and keeps everyone gainfully employed. But you build a bridge, it’s done. No more work for a half century….
And while we’re at it, a couple new wars to keep up “demand’ wouldn’t hurt … us at least.
</MIC-speak>
Cheers,
January 21st, 2009 at 3:22 pmHell yes, cancel this program and just give the money to me. I’ll spend it like Spitzer on poor working women. I’ll spend it like the Kennedys on ‘alchol applied internally’. I’ll spend it like the Democratic congress and make bridges to nowhere. I’ll spend it like the dems yesterday dancing in the streets of DC like they won the lottery.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:24 pmNot a penny will get wasted. It will go to people that truely deserve it, instead of engineers and union workers and management and taxes and ultimatly: protection of America from those that have declared to destroy us by any means possible no matter how long it takes.
Freedom isn’t free.
Bilbo Hussein Baggins Says:
You know Keltoi, you are a complete and total idiot.
But it requires so much intelligence to call someone a name.
Just because Obama was not in the military does not disqualify him from making decisions that have to do with the military. He has his own point of view and unlike his predecessor, he will ask experts what they think and then make an intelligent rational decision.
My God, can you or Matt read? Where did I day he was disqualified from making this decision? I said it would be tougher from the political angle.
I was so hoping that when your party got handed it’s hat and shown the door that you would have gone with them. Unfortunately you seem determined to sick around and continue to smell up the place.
I am always ruining your echo chamber, I know, sorry about that, but I don’t come here to talk with you. You never fail to read something I am not saying and then call me puerille names because of it.
Try this: debate the position, not the person. Just try.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:26 pmWe must put an end to the military-industrial complex
January 21st, 2009 at 3:29 pm………………or……………………
the military-industrial complex will put an end to us.
rushisright Says:
Hell yes, cancel this program and just give the money to me.
Will you commit to getting your GED?
January 21st, 2009 at 3:31 pmWhy don’t we just stop building bombers? We have enough nukes to destroy the world 10 times over. Don’t you remember when Reagan nuked Moscow and Russia is now capitalist, and Bush Sr nuked Iraq and the middle east is at peace? And Bush Jr nuked Iran, N. Korea, Syria, Pakistan, Afganistan, and Japan for good measure and now we have a NWO?
January 21st, 2009 at 3:31 pmAfter noon yesterday, the WHOLE world loves America now. We are all proud to be Americans. There are no more homeless people, they just turned into suit wearing businessmen and women. Foreclosures have stopped because people’s bank accounts are now overflowing. No one has to work now because we will be paying everyone to volunteer. We will all have new cars and free gas and no more bills.
I’d rather give all that money to the homeless. I’ll bet most Americans agree with me. The jobs they talk about can be replaced with jobs which help people, not kill them.
Our political and military leaders need to regain their moral compasses.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:31 pmI thought it was the Rethuglican contingent in Alaska that built bridges to nowhere.
But I’m sure “Clinton did it, too.”
January 21st, 2009 at 3:32 pmkeltoi says; Obama never served in the military
SO?
We just had an administration headed by a DESERTER and a 5-deferment Dickhead. Along with a whole plethora of draft-dodging cowards serving the last administration.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:33 pmI am so sick of the assclowns on the right who claim their pet projects and lobbyist’s businesses are “too big to fail” yet the big three in detroit aren’t?
why do repukeliscums hate american workers?
January 21st, 2009 at 3:34 pmZimzone says; What if they held a war and nobody came?
We’d have PEACE!
January 21st, 2009 at 3:36 pmNevar Says:
“rushisright Says:
Hell yes, cancel this program and just give the money to me. ”
Will you commit to getting your GED?
I will pay for everyone (including you) to get their GED, and you won’t have to go to prison like most GED receivers.
For your info, I have a Bachlor of Science. :)
January 21st, 2009 at 3:38 pmHave a great day, retard.
Uh, people…your lack of inquiry as to why this is being pushed by Congress is myopic. There are more facts at hand than the old tired association between matching air forces of the USSR and USA.
Some factors to dive into before trying to scuttle the big decision that President Obama and Secretary Gates will need to make:
* Do we want air superiority in the future?
* If yes, how do we maintain it?
Factors –
- Current airplanes have been used far past their expected life spans (F16, F15, F18, Harrier, etc.).
- F22 was supposed to replace the F15…a plane which experienced more than one disintegration in flight due to airframe stress last year
- The JSF is supposed to replace the F16, F18 and Harrier; recent concerns include those that design f—ups have compromised key advantages (ala expert of none). As a result the JSF may be cheaper but it may not give the performance to guarantee missions ability, stealth, armament, and money’s worth for that matter
- F22 costs are high partially due to the reduction in orders by the Pentagon. Another major factor is that Congress has barred export to allies. Australia, Japan and Israel are begging for the ability to buy them…which can lower the costs.
- The Su-30 variants being exported by Russia are extremely good; their missiles have gotten much better too. A 2008 exercise with Indian air force pilots (who’s training isn’t nearly what we give our pilots) against old F15, F16’s resulted in big losses for our side. Older planes can’t match the new, and pilot training won’t keep the gap small for long.
…which brings me back to whether we want to have air superiority in the future…. If air superiority is important, the options are:
* Keep pilots OR go unmanned for fighter/bombers – this has ramifications that haven’t truly been vetted; probably not a mid-term option. Assuming that the aircraft are manned:
* Cut off the F22 and also the JSF; leave the air superiority issue as close to status-quo as possible for the near-term; this will likely require interim increased purchases of F18 Superhornets, increased maintenance costs, diminished craft availability/numbers, etc. to keep aging fleets aloft.
* Alternatively, the above can be done with the perspective that another aircraft be designed–aka 6th generation fighter (F15,F16, etc. are 4th generation; Su-30, F18 (superhornet) are ~4.5; F22 and JSF are 5th).
* Open exports of the F22 to and then determine through those volume reductions in unit cost whether the decision parameters change for the future.
* Close the F22 as is planned and count on the JSF to shoulder the additional needs (this is whats currently been decided). If its true that the crafts objectives have been severely compromised, we may be wasting our $.
I know that many on this board (that I’ve read with passion for years) are anti-defense and cast a wide suspicion over the Pentagon. I’m not a shill or am 100% convinced of a particular path with just what I know either. I’m just saying that there’s more to this issue besides old dogmas.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:38 pmrushisright Says:
Freedom isn’t free.
A lack of education, however, is.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:40 pmUncle Ho Says:
——————————————————————————–
keltoi says; Obama never served in the military
SO?
We just had an administration headed by a DESERTER and a 5-deferment Dickhead. Along with a whole plethora of draft-dodging cowards serving the last administration.
EXACTLY. And they were pilloried for it on a daily basis by the left whenever it came to making decisions regarding the military. Not having served in the military reduces a Presidents credibility when it comes to making military decisions relative to a President who DID serve. Your comment simply reinforces this truth. Why is it so hard to understand?
January 21st, 2009 at 3:41 pmobama was part of the generation that was not forced into a draft. I have no problem with him not being in the military.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:41 pmIf he had been in the military, he would be more qualified to be commander-in-chief. But he wasn’t. At least the military-hating hillamonster isn’t prez or vize-prez. She will be attempting to fill the shoes of Condi Rice.
I know that many on this board (that I’ve read with passion for years) are anti-defense and cast a wide suspicion over the Pentagon. I’m not a shill or am 100% convinced of a particular path with just what I know either. I’m just saying that there’s more to this issue besides old dogmas.
Thanks for the heads up.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:42 pmrushi si a blight has, “For your info, I have a Bachlor of Science. :)”
Whereever the hell you are, their educational standards must be in the shitter. they gave you a degree when you can’t even spell b-a-c-h-e-l-o-r-s?
January 21st, 2009 at 3:42 pmIt is truly an amazing airplane. It’s just way too expensive. Russia has some amazing aircraft that perform as well (some say better) but cost less than half as much. The Soviet economy could not keep up with the arms race with the West. The Western economy will not be able to keep up with an arms race with the East. But that really is an amazing airplane.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:43 pmajdogman Says:
I know that many on this board (that I’ve read with passion for years) are anti-defense and cast a wide suspicion over the Pentagon. I’m not a shill or am 100% convinced of a particular path with just what I know either. I’m just saying that there’s more to this issue besides old dogmas.
You are damn well informed, though…
January 21st, 2009 at 3:43 pmA cave-dwelling adversary brings an empire to its knees. The wounded empire responds recklessly and spends itself into oblivion to rid itself of a pesky mosquito.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:44 pmmcwars attempted a funny:
January 21st, 2009 at 3:44 pmFreedom isn’t free.
A lack of education, however, is.
An American education is free. Why is it kids are not getting educated (mcwars included)? Is it the money spent on the school systems? No, they keep throwing more and more millions and the kids are getting dumber (like Mcwars).
rushisright Says:
“Don’t you remember when Reagan nuked Moscow and Russia is now capitalist, and Bush Sr nuked Iraq and the middle east is at peace? And Bush Jr nuked Iran, N. Korea, Syria, Pakistan, Afganistan, and Japan for good measure and now we have a NWO?”
Wow, uh, maybe we’d best hold off on the GED thing and get your meds tuned first… is your nice white jacket with the really long wrap around sleeves a little too tight?
January 21st, 2009 at 3:44 pmrushisright Says: For your info, I have a Bachlor of Science. :)
I could tell it wasn’t Language Arts….
January 21st, 2009 at 3:46 pmbozothehomoclown,
January 21st, 2009 at 3:46 pmfat finger typing. I see your job is to sit here and make comments. Does it supplement your mental disability check? Thank God for welfare or you would have died a long time ago.
..and you won’t have to go to prison like most GED receivers.
Link, please. Your Bachelor of Stupidity degree from RNC College of Wetters & Anti-Sciences should guide you.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:47 pmrushisright Says:
For your info, I have a Bachlor of Science. :)
From where, a cracker jack box? Most degrees require you know how to spell before you get them.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:47 pmrush is a blight
“I see your job is to sit here and make comments.”
who woulda thunk making comments would happen on a message board right, assclown?
January 21st, 2009 at 3:47 pmrush is a blight,
if repukelicans love the military so much then why did they rally against the 21st century G.I. bill which, grampy mclame claimed was, “too generous”?
remember walter reed? we do
how come more and more homeless shelters are dealing with enormous numbers of homeless iraqi and afghanistan vets?
why is the v.a misdiagnosising PTSD because it’s too expensive to treat because too many are suffering?
your “heros” awol dummya, 5 deferrment dick and company SPAT on the military during vietnam by being chickenshit cowards and continue to do so today.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:47 pmSome one call the Carlyle Group….layoffs are coming!!!! Thank You, Thank you…PEACE.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:50 pmrepublicans hate facts,
apparently, not only rush is a blight a total uneducated moron, he’s also functioning on an 8th grade emotive level. that’s about the age when most people realize calling someone a “homo” is lame.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:50 pmBilbo, Matt, would you like to call Matt Yglesias an idiot and waste of a human being? Apparently, he agrees with me.
Update Matthew Yglesias comments, “One good thing about a McCain presidency would have been that a former naval aviator in the White House would have been the deadliest foe ever faced by the U.S. Air Force and its various boondoggles.”
But I’ll not hold my breath waiting for you to admit you were wrong.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:55 pmLame Talking points Dan,
Why don’t you respect the president, traitor?
January 21st, 2009 at 3:56 pmIt’s the same old song with you right wingers. You don’t care about mental illness (it’s possible the entire GOP would go extinct if that issue were fully addressed), you don’t care about poverty, you don’t care about offenders bettering themselves and gaining a different view of the world. You idiots pass over problem-solving for finger-pointing because it provides an instant adrenaline rush to poke fun at something. You need problems to exist so you’re placed in a higher bracket on the count of living comfortably in your parents’ basement.
If the troll does, in fact, posses a B.S. degree, I think it’s time to end legacy and big check college admissions.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:56 pmI’m so thankful with President Obama that its okay again to be a wonk!
Keltoi Says:
ajdogman Says:
I know that many on this board (that I’ve read with passion for years) are anti-defense and cast a wide suspicion over the Pentagon. I’m not a shill or am 100% convinced of a particular path with just what I know either. I’m just saying that there’s more to this issue besides old dogmas.
You are damn well informed, though…
January 21st, 2009 at 3:56 pmLTdan Says:
1 day in the white house and oblahblah is already getting ready to cut military spending.
One day with Obama in the White House, and I see you neocon morons have still not grown brains.
Most of us realize there is no fix for your stupid, though.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:58 pmLTdan Says:
1 day in the white house and oblahblah is already getting ready to cut military spending.
Cool!
January 21st, 2009 at 3:59 pm(If only it were true, eh?!)
An American education is free. Why is it kids are not getting educated (mcwars included)? Is it the money spent on the school systems? No, they keep throwing more and more millions and the kids are getting dumber (like Mcwars).
No, troll, an American education is not free. In fact, it is underfunded. It requires both an investment from the taxpayer and confidence in teachers. GOP shills like yourself refuse either one. Our teachers are dealing with a greater load than ever while GOP shills blame them for everything that goes wrong.
January 21st, 2009 at 4:01 pmkeltoi says;
I don’t remember you EVER criticizing Bush/Cheney for not serving in the military. You’ve gotten pretty selective about that all of a sudden.
January 21st, 2009 at 4:01 pmajdogman,
Although I think that an obscene amount of money goes towards weapons, I really do not consider myself “anti-defense”. I lock my doors at night just in case, if you know what I’m saying.
But seriously, if they did happen to cancel this program, do you really think that it would hurt our “air superiority”? I mean, we spend almost half of the entire planet’s defense spending!
January 21st, 2009 at 4:03 pmThe F-22 program annually provides over $12 billion of economic activity to the national economy.
seems kinda small potatoes…
i read this story in my daily last week:
Study finds UofI a $13 billion economic engine
January 21st, 2009 at 4:04 pmChicago Tribune, United States – Jan 14, 2009
AP CHAMPAIGN, Ill. – The University of Illinois’ three campuses add $13 billion to the state’s economy every year, according to a new study from a campus think tank.
[...]
http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2009/jan/14/news/chi-ap-il-uofi-economicimpa
McWars, interesting point on the state of education. I am a teacher and am constantly amazed when driving into work in the morning how many kids i see waiting for the buses who don’t have a bookbag, not a book to be seen, not even a notebook. but, they all have their cellphones out texxting their friends.
what message about education are these kids getting at home after witnessing this? and i am supposed to do what? change the entire culture of their families?
January 21st, 2009 at 4:05 pmUsing this money to help take care of the homeless sounds like a good idea, since quite a few of the homeless are US Veterans.
January 21st, 2009 at 4:06 pmand i would MUCH rather any funding go to EDUCATION than weapons.
January 21st, 2009 at 4:07 pmLTdan Says:
1 day in the white house and oblahblah is already getting ready to cut military spending.
#####
What the hell does he think he is doing, that stupid Obama, listening to traitors like Secretary Gates and Admiral Mullen? If McCain had won he would know better than to listen to the commanders in the military and would just throw those stupid generals in Gitmo. We need the F-22, even though the majority of the military doesn’t want it.
You are a f@cking idiot.
January 21st, 2009 at 4:08 pmI attended high school in a well-off D.C. suburb (thanks to federal government jobs and the military) that leans conservative. The board of supervisors routinely refuses to raise property taxes beyond $0.64 per $100 of assessed property value. You know what goes on in the schools of this well-off suburb? Students have to share textbooks and teachers print in small text because they’re limited in paper.
While lacking improvement to the schools that already exist, you know what they did? They built more schools, on bonds referendums. What is the tax rate now? Still the same.
January 21st, 2009 at 4:09 pmAccording to Admiral Mullen (what does he know anyway?) we either have a cut in spending on military equipment (like the F-22) or we cut the number of troops we have. LtDan wants us to kick out troops.
January 21st, 2009 at 4:16 pmMcWars, interesting point on the state of education. I am a teacher and am constantly amazed when driving into work in the morning how many kids i see waiting for the buses who don’t have a bookbag, not a book to be seen, not even a notebook. but, they all have their cellphones out texxting their friends.
what message about education are these kids getting at home after witnessing this? and i am supposed to do what? change the entire culture of their families?
I’m glad teaching is your calling. Thank you for your service.
Conservatives like for education outcomes to be in the hands of parents. This is in tune with their gambling mentality. But with families not so strong these days, notably in the areas of incomes, divorce rates and long work hours, moms and dads aren’t finding room for educating their children.
Teachers have excessive testing, politicians and parents who want them to serve as substitutes for good parenting on their backs. Teachers take the kids as they are sent from home.
And to add insult, politicians want to dangle “performance incentives”, because teachers apparently are in it for big money. Right. How about paying teachers better for the great work they already do?
January 21st, 2009 at 4:27 pmmary Says:
ajdogman,
Although I think that an obscene amount of money goes towards weapons, I really do not consider myself “anti-defense”. I lock my doors at night just in case, if you know what I’m saying.
But seriously, if they did happen to cancel this program, do you really think that it would hurt our “air superiority”? I mean, we spend almost half of the entire planet’s defense spending!
To answer your question, I don’t know. However, it is a big risk given the scope of advancement in recent Russian exports (planes plus new missles).
To assess the risk we’d have to know what the likelihood of facing off with an Iran or other Russian importer of arms is. If the chance is low (especially with a positive president’s impact on the world!), then perhaps we can rob Peter to pay Paul and defer the decision to later.
Also, I’m not clear the scope of how bad the current aircraft (F16, F15, F18, Harrier) status is. If the doomsayers are correct and that the previous decade’s operations use basically “used them up”, then it’d be worth knowing just how much it’s going to cost to maintain the numbers that Pres. Obama/Sec. Gates want to maintain. Sounds like a delicate balance between $, qty, expected use and pilot lives.
One-to-one though, a F15 or F16 going against a well trained pilot of an exported Su-30 will likely lose (I’m aghast to say that). 183 F22’s will not replace thousands of combined F16, F15, Harriers, etc.; that’s why the purchase numbers of the JSF are in the 2.5K range. However, since the original F22 order was expected to be in the .8K range, the JSF will probably be trimmed. BTW, excercises between F22 pilots and other allies (even ourselves) have worked out that the F22 has killed in a ratio of over 100:1 (yes, its that good).
Personally, I’m hoping to hear more about the unmanned possibilities for the future as part of this discussion since it A) is so successful with current UAV’s and B) can take risk away from pilot lives.
Isn’t it great being a wonk again?
January 21st, 2009 at 4:27 pmIt may be impossible to cancel or cut the f-22 program. The f-35 has yet to see the first flight of a production model so it remains an unknown. It may not perform as advertised and, even if it does, won’t provide the same air-to-air capability as the f-22.
The unfortunate truth is that it’s the only U.S. fighter in production and, thanks to Bushco’s follies, existing aircraft are wearing out. Our pilots are flying aircraft that are fast becoming junk due to being in a state of war for seven long years. These include aircraft that are known to be past their airframe life and are being operated under severe limits to, hopefully, avoid having their wings fall off.
One can make arguments for and against maintaining a force of manned fighter aircraft but, assuming we are going to keep such a force, the f-22 is the only iron in the fire.
January 21st, 2009 at 5:00 pmRemember that weird kid in middle school that drew pictures of fighter aircraft and could name them all. Those freaking’ weirdos always fail to turn into anything significant. Often they also like to draw guns and knives and shit like that. F uckin’ oddballs…
January 21st, 2009 at 5:03 pmPS:
January 21st, 2009 at 5:06 pmLTdan isn’t real…
Well, warmonger, it would be prudent to look at sources beyond Lockheed Martin/Boeing promotional material. In actual service, the f-22 has proven to be a “plumber’s nightmare” to keep flying. And, they have not begun to approach their predicted service life so serviceability will continue to go down while maintenance costs go up.
It’s like a Ferrari. It’s a world beater when it works but one can’t depend on it to get one to the corner store.
January 21st, 2009 at 5:08 pmAll of these points are exactly why I hope a full review of the subject takes place and results in the decision that best reflects our risk threshold.
My prediction though is that unless Congress opens the F22 to export, the F22 order production date won’t get renewed or extended past a year or two.
January 21st, 2009 at 5:14 pmHey dbadass!
January 21st, 2009 at 5:15 pmI drew fighter and bombers in middle school… I could name them all… I also played Dungeons and Dragons… the difference is that some people leave those things behind, embrace reality and grow up, others become Republicans, embrace fantasy and grow “warmonger woodies”…
OT
January 21st, 2009 at 5:16 pmHey pete
Maybe I already told you but there is an adult ivory gull withing a two hour drive. I have only every seen one so maybe it is roadtrip time…
best-
sorry belac
January 21st, 2009 at 5:17 pmThere are always exceptions but then again there are also always trends…
“Often they also like to draw guns and knives and shit like that. F uckin’ oddballs…”
Well, I grew out of it… ;)
January 21st, 2009 at 5:19 pmSaw a golden eagle and a red-naped sapsucker a couple of days ago…
Nevar,
January 21st, 2009 at 5:22 pmThe later would be a lifer for me. Myself, I was usually drawing boobies…
It’s just that I always got into big trouble when I drew naked people….
January 21st, 2009 at 5:23 pmGreat Breasted Bed Thrashers?
January 21st, 2009 at 5:23 pmI wish we had more members of the Paridae. The Brits seem to have all the good ones… Who wants to settle for a titmouse when you could have a great tit…
January 21st, 2009 at 5:28 pmI have a lifelong passion for things that fly. Birds, bats, squirrels, planes, rockets, blimps etc. They all fascinate me and there are few aircraft in the history of manned flight I can’t ID at a glance but, I never could draw.
January 21st, 2009 at 5:31 pmNot to mention the bird that’s got it all, the bushtit…
January 21st, 2009 at 5:32 pmMy dad used to tell a joke about a guy looking through martini glasses, like binoculars, and exclaiming he’s seeking a “Rosy-chested Pushover”.
January 21st, 2009 at 5:35 pmYou said it Pete, it would be prudent to look at sources beyond Lockheed Martin/Boeing promotional material. I think the Air Force is particularly vulnerable to marketing.
Here is part of one assessment of the F-22:
Defense Monitor, Vol. XXXV, No. 6 – November/December 2006
Not so bright and shiny as the brochure.
As an Air Force veteran, I’m enamored with the A-10; but I don’t think that gives me the clout that being president gives on the hill to argue against the Raptor.
January 21st, 2009 at 5:39 pmDr. Hussein Matt Says:
‘Wears diapers at night’ proves once again that reich-wingers have zero grasp on reality and common sense.
No, I see his point there. It would be extremely politically courageous – Democrats would oppose because of the jobs, and Republicans would cry “weak on defense!” I’m curious to see what he’ll do on this one.
And Keltoi’s right about debating the position instead of the person.
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rushisright Says:
I’ll spend it like the Democratic congress and make bridges to nowhere.
Good thing we had Sarah Palin to put a stop to that, huh?
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rushisright Says:
I’ll spend it like the dems yesterday dancing in the streets of DC like they won the lottery.
Dancing in the streets is free. I recommend you go do it now.
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rushisright Says:
Freedom isn’t free.
… it costs a buck or five.
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rushisright Says:
Why don’t we just stop building bombers?
Did you even read the article, or does the military usefulness of a project not factor in to your calculations? By your logic we should be spending billions on trying to build a Death Star.
The rest of that comment was, um… special.
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ajdogman Says:
Uh, people…your lack of inquiry as to why this is being pushed by Congress is myopic. There are more facts at hand than the old tired association between matching air forces of the USSR and USA.
That’s a tremdously informative post, thanks.
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Keltoi Says:
EXACTLY. And they were pilloried for it on a daily basis by the left whenever it came to making decisions regarding the military.
Well, I think the point there was that these people actively avoided being deployed anywhere. I’m just glad that we finally got to the point where we don’t demand to know where our Presidential candidates were during ‘Nam.
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JBaddo Says:
A cave-dwelling adversary brings an empire to its knees. The wounded empire responds recklessly and spends itself into oblivion to rid itself of a pesky mosquito.
You talking about the British Empire, or the USSR? Oh, it’s our turn now. Dammit!
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rushisright Says:
An American education is free. Why is it kids are not getting educated (mcwars included)? Is it the money spent on the school systems? No, they keep throwing more and more millions and the kids are getting dumber (like Mcwars).
McWars said “a lack of education,” which is the opposite of education, since we’re on the subject of your reading comprehension abilities. And school funding has been steadily decreasing for a long time, thanks to Republicans. It’s actually doing a pretty good job on the cheap.
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LTdan Says:
1 day in the white house and oblahblah is already getting ready to cut military spending.
Did you read the post at top? It didn’t say what Obama’s position was. And I thought you were for less government spending.
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McWars Says:
If the troll does, in fact, posses a B.S. degree, I think it’s time to end legacy and big check college admissions.
It’s probably a “B.S.” in Creation Science from Oral Roberts University.
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Chris LeJeune Says:
According to Admiral Mullen (what does he know anyway?) we either have a cut in spending on military equipment (like the F-22) or we cut the number of troops we have. LtDan wants us to kick out troops.
LTDan, why don’t you support our troops?
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glezzery Says:
“Improved reliability and maintainability. To ensure operational flexibility, the F-22 has better reliability and maintainability than any military fighter in history.
So it must be cheaper than the alternatives. Except that that’s the opposite of true.
January 21st, 2009 at 6:29 pmGiven the way the Christer officers in the USAF keep defending this white elephant of a platform, I’m surprised that somebody hasn’t noted that it should be called the F-22 “Rapture” instead of its given name. The USAF officer corps certainly feels all warm and tingly when they think of this target. It will certainly make a lot of pilots disappear if and when it needs to confront armed UAVs which will likely be fielded by potential enemies in the next twenty years.
January 21st, 2009 at 6:54 pmPete, this isn’t correct. Boeing still produces the F-18 superhornet and has integrated some of the F22 advances in it. This is why they’re positioning it as a 4.5-4.75 generation fighter. Some proponents of this aircraft are also trying to argue to drop both the JSF and F22 in place of the superhornet while opening up the bids for a new yet-to-be-defined generation 6 aircraft (arguing we should skip a generation). Unfortunately, nobody has any idea what a 6th generation plan is so don’t expect to see anything for at least 20 years.
pete Says:
“The unfortunate truth is that it’s the only U.S. fighter in production”
“the f-22 is the only iron in the fire.”
January 21st, 2009 at 6:58 pmActually, I believe that the smart folks in the USAF do know what that 6th generation platform looks like and it ain’t crewed. That fact militates against the fighter mafia allowing its hallowed Rapture from being terminated. No way that a crewed fighter platform can outmaneuver or out-accelerate an uncrewed vehicle. The crewed platform is limited to around 10G accleratin loads. The uncrewed vehicles can go as high as 35G. How does a crewed platform out-turn the uncrewed aircraft? It can’t, so it will almost invariably lose. The fighter mafia just hates the idea that the aces of the future just might not need the “right stuff” as they’ve defined it for the last eighty years. As they said in “Black Adder: Going Forth”, “Woof!”
January 21st, 2009 at 7:08 pmThanks for the knowledge…sounds spot on given what’s been said about the happiness with pilots being transferred in rotation through the UAV remote piloting.
I wonder what the debate is going to look like. Sec. Gates isn’t a fan of the F22 but he is a fan of UAV’s (especially armed ones).
PrahaPartizan Says:
ajdogman Says:
“…Unfortunately, nobody has any idea what a 6th generation plan is so don’t expect to see anything for at least 20 years…”
Actually, I believe that the smart folks in the USAF do know what that 6th generation platform looks like and it ain’t crewed. That fact militates against the fighter mafia allowing its hallowed Rapture from being terminated. No way that a crewed fighter platform can outmaneuver or out-accelerate an uncrewed vehicle. The crewed platform is limited to around 10G accleratin loads. The uncrewed vehicles can go as high as 35G. How does a crewed platform out-turn the uncrewed aircraft? It can’t, so it will almost invariably lose. The fighter mafia just hates the idea that the aces of the future just might not need the “right stuff” as they’ve defined it for the last eighty years. As they said in “Black Adder: Going Forth”, “Woof!”
January 21st, 2009 at 7:22 pmExcuse me, that should have been only U.S. Airforce fighter in production. And the f-18, which is optimized for use from carriers, has it’s own limitations regarding weight, range, performance and structure. And it can’t match the f-15 in a “pure fighter” role.
January 21st, 2009 at 7:31 pmThe F-22 is a lousy program by any standard. But they want to hold onto it anyway. More money for something that doesn’t work. It makes no military of monetary sense. I guess that means they will continue to throw good money away.
January 21st, 2009 at 8:42 pmWhat a slack backdoor effort. They are using the same excuse as AIG and the rest of the crooks.
January 21st, 2009 at 11:28 pm.
There’s a killin’ to be had…
… At making war.
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January 22nd, 2009 at 2:13 amStand your ground Mr.President. If you do not think it is a good idea then say so, to the American people and we will back you.
January 22nd, 2009 at 2:23 pm