Rep. DeFazio: ‘I Think Obama Is Ill-Advised By Larry Summers. Larry Summers Hates Infrastructure’
Rep. DeFazio: ‘I Think Obama Is Ill-Advised By Larry Summers. Larry Summers Hates Infrastructure’
Earlier this week, Rep. Jim Oberstar (D-MN) explained that funding for mass transit infrastructure projects was nixed from the stimulus proposal in order to make room for tax cuts. Despite the fact that tax cuts already comprise a bulky 33 percent of the stimulus (compared to only 7.5 percent for transportation infrastructure), conservatives are pressuring President Obama to include even more.
Tonight on the Rachel Maddow Show, Rep. Peter DeFazio (D-OR) said the amount of infrastructure spending in the legislation is “not enough.” He argued that if the Republicans are recycling failed ideas of the past, “we don’t need to buy them off with $300 billion in tax cuts.” DeFazio said Democrats in Congress originally proposed more for infrastructure spending, but the effort was shot down by Obama advisers:
There’s a pretty good consensus among members of the House that it should be more. But the dictate from on high in the negotiations with Obama’s advisers — I don’t think the President is there — I think he’s ill-advised by Larry Summers. Larry Summers hates infrastructure, and some of these other economists — who were very much part of creating the problem. Now they’re gonna solve the problem. And they don’t like infrastructure.
They want to have a consumer-driven recovery. We need an investment- and productivity-driven recovery for this country, a long-term recovery.
Maddow noted Obama speaks “very highly” of infrastructure. “If there’s a distance between him and his advisers,” she said, then that’s a problem. DeFazio responded, “He needs to know it, and that’s why I’m speaking out.” Watch it:
DeFazio is right about the value of infrastructure. Significantly more “bang for the buck” comes from direct investment in infrastructure than from any type of tax cut. One dollar invested in infrastructure has a return of $1.59 in GDP growth, while most tax cuts don’t even return 50 cents.
DeFazio is also right about the need for a productivity-driven stimulus package, one that meets short-term and long-term economic needs. As Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman explained simply, “The one thing we know is that the good thing about federal spending is it’s actually spent, that it actually does boost the economy. And if it’s infrastructure, it also leaves you with something of value afterwards. Whereas if you do it the way the Republicans want to do it, which is always tax breaks, first of all, it might not be not be spent or it might not help the economy at all. And then, you’ve got nothing to show for when the thing is over.”
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It will be glezzery if Obama listens to idiots like you. You GOP thugs had your chance and you nearly destroyed the Country in the process. Bugger off!
January 23rd, 2009 at 10:41 pmWe need legislation to revoke the drivers license of anyone who refers to highway projects as “pork”.
January 23rd, 2009 at 10:43 pmFormerly undersecretary and then secretary of the treasury in the Clinton administration, Larry Summers was considered the key crisis manager during the Mexican and Asian currency collapses in the late 1990s.
A magazine cover at the time depicted Summers, his boss Robert Rubin, then treasury secretary, and Federal Reserve Board Chairman Alan Greenspan as “the committee to save the world.”
In 1999, the Republican-controlled Congress adopted legislation repealing the New Deal-era Glass-Steagall Act, which separated commercial from investment banking and imposed other restrictions on banking operations.
Summers and the Clinton administration backed this deregulation of financial markets, which contributed to the collapse of 2008.
After leaving government with the end of the Clinton administration, Summers became president of Harvard University, but his stormy tenure came to an abrupt end after a series of clashes with the faculty, which included his now-notorious comments about the supposedly innate differences between male and female students in relation to the most abstract scientific fields, particularly mathematics.
Summers served as a top economic adviser to the Obama campaign but was chosen for the lower-profile White House position, which, unlike treasury secretary, does not require Senate confirmation, in part because of the prospect of contentious questioning about his views on gender. If Fed Chairman Bernanke is not reappointed this year—his term expires next January—Summers is a likely candidate to succeed him.
January 23rd, 2009 at 10:45 pmgreat segment… just watched it earlier…
this is great news too:
Obama: Quit Listening to Rush Limbaugh if You Want to Get Things Done
FOXNews – 45 minutes ago
Obama warned Republicans to quit listening to Limbaugh if they want to get along with Democrats, during a White House discussion on his nearly $1 trillion stimulus package.
but i won’t go there…
January 23rd, 2009 at 10:48 pmYes, it is dumbass. Where have you been for the past 5 months. In the winter of 1930, I doubt they were calling their economic downturn “The Great Depression” yet.
January 23rd, 2009 at 10:49 pmGO’BAMA! GO’BAMA!
THANK YOU, SIR! MORE! MORE!
January 23rd, 2009 at 10:50 pmKaty, that’s excellent! Jeez, to be a fly on the wall during THAT meeting!
January 23rd, 2009 at 10:51 pmand THANK YOU, Rep. DeFazio!
and RACHEL!
January 23rd, 2009 at 10:52 pmYes windsock, he is highlighting the racist, drug addled, pedophile leader of the right-wing Republicans.
January 23rd, 2009 at 11:00 pmIn addition to telling the Republicans, “I won,” President Obama should just scrap the tax cuts almost in their entirety, leaving in place tax refunds (even if its free money) to the lower-income peopel. They are theones who would spend it which all competent economists agree is what is needed. Call it 5% of the $350 billion. LEt the rest be euqally divided between infrastructure projects (not just roads and rails, but water systems and the electrical grid(!)) and the rest divided among the other cat4egories mentioned (healthcare? education? something else, which I forget.)
Now, Here is where the Republicans should be allowed to have the only input they can give. They can help decide how the money is going to be spent among the other categories left. No tax cuts for the rich. No tax cuts for businesses. No stupid back-five-year depreciation gimmicks that do nothing to spur the economy.
If Republicans want to see more money spent on education and a litte less on infrastructure, okay. But if they want less on infrastructure and more on tax cuts, they can get up and leave the room now. They lost. Big. They have no right to say they represent the will of the people, because a majority of the country has rejected their thinking.
January 23rd, 2009 at 11:01 pmglezzery Says:
Lower the costs of doing business and injecting cash through lower taxation without the middle man government should be the first priority.
This will do nothing to help the current economic crisis.
January 23rd, 2009 at 11:03 pmI agree. I am middle of the middle class, and I don’t want a tax cut. Spend all of the money putting people to work building the roads, bridges, water works, ect. that have been ignored since Reagan took office.
January 23rd, 2009 at 11:04 pmObama: Quit Listening to Rush Limbaugh if You Want to Get Things Done
FOXNews – 45 minutes ago
Obama warned Republicans to quit listening to Limbaugh if they want to get along with Democrats, during a White House discussion on his nearly $1 trillion stimulus package.
Video: Obama Asks Lawmakers to Back Stimulus Bill AssociatedPress
Obama Presses for Quick Jolt to the Economy New York Times
ABC News – Reuters – Minneapolis Star Tribune – Voice of America
all 2,617 news articles »
30+ headlines on that page, and only fox is reporting that tidbit…
not sure that qualifies as “most important”, but, whatever…
like i said, i won’t go there, to fox… no idea how twisted the REAL story is… and it’s sure to be twisted…
January 23rd, 2009 at 11:04 pmHere is the thing, Obama ran on a middle class tax cut all throughout the campaign. Those who try to portray the tax cuts in this stimulus bill as some kind of payoff to the GOP just must not be paying attention. Besides that if you look at the pie chart on the Rachel Maddow show by far the largest amount of spending goes to State and local government along with healthcare. Does no one else see how big that is? Another thing is this insistence on quoting Krugman on every progressive blog as if he said we should have infrastructure spending ONLY in an economic stimulus bill. Well NEWS FLASH here is Krugman in Rolling Stone
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/25456948/what_obama_must_do/3
Even Krugman doesn’t swear off tax cuts all together as they are needed to sustain many of those families that have lost wages due to job losses and or under employment. I hate to say it but as progressives we are starting to push infrastructure spending ONLY in a way that mirrors wingnuts pushing tax cuts ONLY. Neither one is ever going to be healthy for our economy. Now do I wish we spent more on infrastructure? Of course. Do I wish we were able to keep in the other infrastructure projects that got dropped supposedly to accomodate the tax cuts? Sure. But I also realize that this has been part of President Obama’s plan from the start and it wasn’t any kind of secret.
Maybe just maybe its time to let him do his thing and see if it works instead of second guessing every damm step he takes. I say with all sincerity I can muster, if you didn’t trust Obama to make this kind of big decision then you probably shouldn’t have voted for him in the first place.
January 23rd, 2009 at 11:06 pm“when they’re wrong, we don’t need their votes” -defazio
bottom line.
January 23rd, 2009 at 11:08 pmSummers is a disaster. He’s dull, old school, and a dreamer, as well as very well-connected to big global money. He’s a lackey for world wealth: banks, oil money, Euro money, US/Cayman Islands money. He could give one whiff for the populace who aren’t part of his Davos crowd. He’s untrustworthy and a boor.
Ok, there’s the invective.
Reality is that the form of rapacious capitalism practiced in the 20th and now 21st centuries is bankrupt. The people, the planet cannot sustain the hyper-wealth created by the wealthy for the wealthy without destroying the environment (pollution, radiation, global warming), destroying civilized societies like the Democratice Republic of the Congo (for its mineral wealth) or Iraq (for its oil wealth) or China (for its labor pool – been to Shen Zhen lately?), destroying our morals through the marketing of greed and selfishness.
Summers represents the old, the crystalized, the deadening philosophy of the past where the fear of scarceness created excessive cupidity. Its an emotional pattern passed on for many generations, and it no longer serves. Only through sharing of resources will we rise from the ashes of advanced capitalism, else we will fulfill the frightening prophesies of death of the world through Fire.
January 23rd, 2009 at 11:13 pm“china’s spending 600 BILLION dollars” on infrastructure…
we are spending, what did he say? 1/16 of that?
drop in that proverbial bucket…
January 23rd, 2009 at 11:13 pmThere will be more than picks and shovels. Let’s leave the picks and shovels for chimpy’s and his gang.
I wouldn’t pay attention to these old dirtbags. They want to destroy the US like they did to their party.
January 23rd, 2009 at 11:14 pmI agree, shoeless.
I’m not wealthy, nor would I consider myself “upper middle class”. I do alright for the area of the country in which I live. But if the choice is between giving me a lot more money or helping to rebuild our nation’s electrical grid, then fix the grid. If they want to throw me a couple of hundred bucks so I could buy some great books I haven’t had the extra money to buy, that’s okay, too.
Right now, our nation’s crumbling infrastructure needs the money a lot more than I do. That’s a sacrifice I will be proud as an American to make.
January 23rd, 2009 at 11:16 pmsgwhitefla, you make a lot of sense. I think in our buzz-word, short attention span society, we forget that what we should want from infrastructure, IMHO, is an improved, efficient electricity grid, a renewal of rail service, especially along corridors like NY/Chi, NE Corridor, LA/Bay Area, etc, of course with high speed trains. . . And wind-derived energy production, and solar derived energy production, and retooling private property for energy efficiency, and . . . But of course this should include State and local spending for rebuilding school (not only to be energy efficient, but to take kids away from teevee and commercialism), rebuild bridges and roadways, fix dams that are going to collapse (N.B. the recent waste water collapse in Tennessee . . .), remediate and restore wetlands and dry lands, and blown-off mountain tops, the list is endless, and 6 percent is not enough!
January 23rd, 2009 at 11:23 pmI, like Rachel, think infrastruture is sexy. We must invest in our countrys future. Repugs don’t get it.
January 23rd, 2009 at 11:27 pmwow, that rachel… she came up fast, as still going strong…
carl bernstein, the NSA and journalists… possibly…
January 23rd, 2009 at 11:28 pmI just read an interesting article including some history on Lawrence Summers by Michel Chossudovsky at Global Research:
Who are the Architects of Economic Collapse?
The section including Summers is halfway down the page.
Interesting reading..
January 23rd, 2009 at 11:34 pmI will add that I am VERY happy to have President Obama in the White House. I am VERY happy with all he has done so far, and I have a lot of faith in him – that if anyone can turn things around for the better (and fix what the last administration broke), he can. He is a real inspiration and seems to be honest, open, and committed. He seems to care deeply about the people of this country, the rule of law, and the Constitution. I think he will take much better care of it than those who just left.
January 23rd, 2009 at 11:38 pmDefazio is one of the most level headed and intelligent congressman out there.
I want to hear incentives of bringing back our manufacturing base from overseas… maybe tariffs or increased taxes to US corporations that choose to remain overseas. The cost to the consumer would go up, but it is, I feel, either that or we lose.
And single payer health insurance wouldn’t hurt to ease that burden to companies that remain in the US.
Wealth of a country is defined on how much it manufactures… ours is very little.
January 23rd, 2009 at 11:56 pmwhut ar u, sum kinda pinko commie terrist simpithyzer? im ann amerikan an i wunt mi tacks kut!
January 24th, 2009 at 12:05 amToo much input from repukes, repukian agenda sucks as$.
Obama needs to give the finger to the Unamerican traitors.
January 24th, 2009 at 12:06 amYeah, but you cannot put a bridge or a road in a bank account in the Bahamas which is why reichwingers don’t like infrastructure.
January 24th, 2009 at 12:15 amI like the balance in your comment sgwhitefla. I strongly favor infrastructure investment, but this recent piece by Surowiecki in the New Yorker explains why Obama’s tax cuts will work better than most:
January 24th, 2009 at 12:30 am
Oops, here’s the link:
So you can read the explanation that goes in between the 2 paragraphs I excerpted.
January 24th, 2009 at 12:42 amJanuary 24th, 2009 at 12:43 am
Really a couple hundred bucks isn’t going to do sh!t for my budget…we need sh!t fixed…not stupid tax breaks.
I mean really, five hundred bucks, that’s a months worth of food for two now a days, it isn’t crap.
If you give me $5 K or more, well that is a bit of a help, but really, depending where you live, it could be just a drop in the bucket.
Seattle is way expensive to live in and 500 bucks is to giggle about.
January 24th, 2009 at 12:43 amBy the way 140K a year is middle class here.
January 24th, 2009 at 12:45 amGeorge W. Bush thought infrastructure improvements was watching New Orleans turn into a near Atlantis and having a bridge collapse in Minneapolis. All avoidable, but hell…lets rebuild and have the GOP pretend they care!
Our now former president had governors screaming for federal dollars for needed improvements to systems that could turn into the next disaster areas. Then Bush with his cronies flubbed about needing tax breaks for Fortune 500 companies and drilling for oil that wouldn’t make a difference for 10 years. Does that count for infrastructure? Not unless you say how Sarah Palin’s Alaska has helped all our energy woes and say it with a straight face!
If Glenn Beck or another neocon pundit says George W. Bush had it “tough” as president, point the fool(s) to the people in this nation that suffered an avoidable calamity caused by Bush’s “infrastructure” gains also known as less than zero.
January 24th, 2009 at 12:52 amsgwhitefla Says:
Here is the thing, Obama ran on a middle class tax cut all throughout the campaign. Those who try to portray the tax cuts in this stimulus bill as some kind of payoff to the GOP just must not be paying attention.
Sshhh. Let Obama sell this to the Republicans as their payoff. They don’t need to know.
.
Wayne A. Schneider Says:
…if the choice is between giving me a lot more money or helping to rebuild our nation’s electrical grid, then fix the grid.
Interesting that you should bring up the patchworky electrical grid. It’s pretty much in the same shape that our highways were before Eisenhower signed off on the national highway system. If we want to reduce our energy consumption, a HUGE way to do that would be to cut down on the energy loss involved in interstate transmission. In fact, I’d like to see us looking very seriously into superconductive main routes.
.
Gregor Samsa Says:
Yeah, but you cannot put a bridge or a road in a bank account in the Bahamas which is why reichwingers don’t like infrastructure.
True. But that’s also completely idiotic of them. You have any idea how much money private enterprise has made off the interstate highway system? Or the underlying structure of the Internet? Infrastructure that can be leveraged for business pays exponential benefits over time.
January 24th, 2009 at 1:09 amElBruce,
Asit is at any point in a growing civiliation, thereare luxuries and there are necessities. And the way things are in our society, electricity is an absolute necessity. We need to find clean ways to generate it, store it, and love it to areas tat need it. Screw the capialistic idea about not being able to make money off it. Some things are more important than money. And if it prevents another Enron Theft, it’s worth it.
January 24th, 2009 at 1:46 amElBruce Says:
You have any idea how much money private enterprise has made off the interstate highway system?
Yes, I am with you. But for people with short-term, tunnel vision, the prospect of making money quickly trumps all other considerations. For them it’s all about the here and now and getting rich as quickly as possible.
This is why the idea that the government should be run like a business is complete nonsense.
January 24th, 2009 at 1:53 amGregor Samsa,
This is why the idea that the government should be run like a business is complete nonsense.
And anyone who touts the fact that he ran a business qualifies him to run a country or state is sadly mistaken. While there are crtainly aspects of both that overlap (operating within a budget), the goals of both of complete;y opposite. A business will try to maximize profits even at the expense of worthwhile projects, while a government is trying to help as many people as possible, even if it is at a loss (deficit spending.) If you’re good at the former, what you think you’ll be good at the latter.
January 24th, 2009 at 2:01 amWayne A. Schneider Says:
[...]anyone who touts the fact that he ran a business qualifies him to run a country or state is sadly mistaken.
Or deluded. Or lying. Or all of the above, a la Bush ;-)
A business will try to maximize profits even at the expense of worthwhile projects
Exactly. And at the expense of people too. The corporate meme “our most valuable asset is our people” is complete BS.
Companies routinely lay people off as they shift manufacturing and other jobs to cheaper locales, because at the end of the day the only thing that matters is turning a profit.
I can imagine what would happen if someone decided to run the country as if it were, say, WalMart and neglected to give people health insurance… oh wait…
January 24th, 2009 at 3:16 amHell yes DeFazio, you tell ‘em. Exactly why we as Oregonians keep re-electing him, because he actually gives a shat about the people who put him into office.
Tax cuts are always a freakin’ joke. I know how rich a$$holes work, you give them a tax cut, they sit on the money. I’ve got family who are millionaires and they are the biggest penny pinching SOB’s. You give them a tax cut, you make them richer. You give a tax cut to the low/middle class — they’ll spend it. It’s simple.
January 24th, 2009 at 6:52 amWe’ve spend for years on tax breaks for the rich. Big business goes over seas of shelter its income and tax obligations. Congress keeps spending the rabble’s tax dollars on big wealth breaks.
January 24th, 2009 at 9:02 amWe need to shovel money at the bottom of the heep. The money will be spent and a new economic cycle will begin again. If the cycle is forever delayed by the rich they will cut their own throats.
Why is it the rich always need the crutch to succede, and the rabble always struggles in America. It’s time the educated wake up to reality and spend money building a new foundation for future folk,including their own.
If they don’t like it, propose taxing their death at an extreme rate. They will never feel it then.
Robert Reich and Rangel floating the idea of training “minorities” (illegals given amnesty) to do the work of the middle class workers. Basically saying, “Screw the Hard Hats and Computer Technicians”. Reagan, Bush Sr, Clinton, and Bush Jr. outsourced the computer industry, and now they are trying to insource Construction Workers.
On his blog, Reich makes his case for, “The Stimulus: How to Create Jobs Without Them All Going to Skilled Professionals and White Male Construction Workers.”
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=86827
January 24th, 2009 at 9:28 amThe jury is still out for me in the economic arena. Obama has put together a team that doesn’t have the right kinds of credentials for the plan he has described. But I am working from decades (mostly under Repugs) of the tail wagging the dog experience.
The President has impressed me so far as a man who knows his own mind and as one who can get things done. With help from people like DeFazio, Krugman and others…there is hope.
January 24th, 2009 at 10:00 amThis interview made more common sense than most I have heard lately. Which is probably why it (and DeFazio) will be ignored. Sad.
January 24th, 2009 at 10:13 amI knew that Larry Summers was a bad choice. I hope Obama has several advisors to counter Larry Summers’s views and that he listtens to them.
January 24th, 2009 at 10:14 amI know this thread is vacant, but I have thoughts anyway.
In my view, tax cutting paired with deficit spending makes little sense to me. One poll showed that people are far more concerned with keeping their job than paying less taxes on the income they’re struggling to maintain. If a great majority, of the people, then, aren’t concerned with tax cuts, why would you cut off a source of revenue that will eventually be needed to reduce the deficit?
My economic recovery proposal is to keep those revenues intact, reverse the Bush tax cuts NOW according to the Obama campaign pledge, insert regulations making unions stronger, more effective, and easier to form, reissue a stimulus check to those making less than $65,000 a year, and get serious about infrastructure spending.
The current stimulus bill is becoming a mess, and if the change will come through Obama as he says, he will need to accept only the best advice his advisors have to offer.
January 24th, 2009 at 3:17 pmMcWars, don’t worry about a thread being vacant. Troll Tracy_5 will show up when it thinks it’s safe to post some inane spew to get the ‘last word’. A sad thing but it makes it feel it is important and witty. When I get some extra time, I will check some old threads just to tag the troll out.
January 24th, 2009 at 5:41 pmFunny how this article has gotten fewer comments than the one about what a clean break Obama is from Bush or how Obama told the GOP off about Limbaugh.
January 24th, 2009 at 8:53 pmSo infrastructure spending was cut to provide more tax cuts.
JEE ZUS we have elected Bush Lite into office and his team of neo-con economic advisers is chilling. We are doomed.
Anyone notice that Obama is giving more to the neo-con right wing than he is to progressives? Bush et al walk free with ZERO prosecutions. Gitmo remains open (what’s another year when you’ve already spent 7 years of your life there?) He is backing away from union support. He is totally silent now on raising taxes on the rich which he just supported BEFORE the election. Waterboarding is banned but not new means of interrogation, and open door. Extrordinary renditions are still allowed in violation of international law. And now he has dumped job creating infrstructure spending to give more tax cuts to the nation that just enjoyed 8 years of tax cuts. WTF?
January 24th, 2009 at 9:05 pmkassandrasduplex, But…Don’t worry. Since most industry has been outsourced (Computer, Clothes, Electronics) and now illegals given amnesty will take the union Construction jobs, we have a lot to look forward to. (Sarcasm) I worked for a huge processor manufacturer and watched 3000 worker’s jobs move to India, where they completely messed up databases and document management. Let’s not forget Microsoft Vista was developed in India. I now work for a large construction company, and everyone knows what is coming down. There are new companies coming in that are using non-union workers, and I see their bid prices, which are incredibly low. Never mind the fact that they do mediocre work. To put it another way, Democrats will screw the public as much as Republicans. They are all Neocon/Globalists, and the purpose is to delete the Middle Class. To save this economy, manufacturing must come back, which is looking pretty dim at this point. They can keep heaving borrowed/fiat money at tax payers, but it does ZERO to help exporting goods.
January 24th, 2009 at 9:22 pmTo be honest I’m terrified of what is coming. And everyone seems to be cheering Obama on but not watching closely what he is actually doing. He’s their hero for the moment and they are blind to what is happening.
January 24th, 2009 at 9:42 pmHave you seen the latest on EFCA? Obama is signaling he is no longer a supporter of it. An about face from his pre-election rhetoric.
The American workforce is being brought to its knees so that it can compete with workers earning less than $200 a month! And Obama is going with the flow.
DeFazio and TheAntichrist point out a very troubling truth. The same clowns that created this mess are going to fix it? Why is Larry Summers anywhere near this? Frank and Dodd still hold chairmanships? None of this makes any sense. Only in Washington can failures be allowed to succeed. All of thes tax cuts and spending are nothing more than a continuation of the Bush approach. Are we wrong in thinking Bush drove the country into a ditch? It seems the new administration agrees with previous economic policy. On the war, yes! On the economy, NO!!!!!
January 25th, 2009 at 7:15 amdrew3rd, you are really in need of help. Seek it before it is too late, if it isn’t already. You have a very thin thread connecting you to reality.
January 25th, 2009 at 1:08 pmkassandrasduplex Says:
To be honest I’m terrified of what is coming. And everyone seems to be cheering Obama on but not watching closely what he is actually doing. He’s their hero for the moment and they are blind to what is happening.
100% in agreement. I initially thought Obama would be a Progressive. His votes on FISA, Credit Cards, Israel, and the Extortion/Bailout, made me rethink him. I then decided to give him a chance as president. I am not expecting a lot from him, but Bush was a total disaster. War will continue, bailouts of banks will continue, pharmaceutical support will continue, support of illegal amnesty will accelerate, and surveillance will uptake. We may get healthcare, abortion will remain legal, gays may get civil unions nationwide, torture will take a new form, and maybe a fiat/vapor-based tax cut for middle class.
January 25th, 2009 at 1:42 pmLarry might hate it but Obama knows that it is what is needed and since he ‘is the man’ now he has the final say.
January 26th, 2009 at 3:07 pm