Israeli Foreign Minister Backtracks On Commitment To Force Jewish Settlers Out Of The West Bank
Israeli Foreign Minister Backtracks On Commitment To Force Jewish Settlers Out Of The West Bank
President Obama has said that an Israeli-Palestinian peace deal is going to be a top priority for his administration. During an interview with Al-Arabiya last week, Obama said the Israel-Palestine issue is “interrelated” with “what’s happening” throughout the region. He also offered support for the so-called two-state solution. “I think it is possible for us to see a Palestinian state,” Obama said, adding, “But it is not going to be easy.”
No it will not be easy. As CBS reporter Bob Simon noted on 60 Minutes last week, “hundreds of thousands” of Jewish settlers would have to withdraw from the West Bank for it, along with the Gaza Strip, to be part of a Palestinian state. But also during Simon’s report, this two-state solution may have received a small boost. Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, who is in the running to become the country’s next prime minister, told Simon — bluntly — that in order to achieve peace and advance a Palestinian state, the Israeli government would force the settlers to leave the West Bank:
SIMON: Can you really imagine evacuating the tens of thousands of settlers who say they will not leave?
LIVNI: It’s not going to be easy, but this is the only solution.
SIMON: But you know that there are settlers who say, “We will fight. We will not leave. We will fight.”
LIVNI: So this is the responsibility of the government, of the police to stop them, as simple as that. Israel is a state of law and order.
Watch it:
However, it appears that Livni’s promise may have been short-lived. Conservative Likud Party Chairman Benjamin Netanyahu, who is also in the running for Israeli prime minster, said this week that he would not be bound by the current government’s “commitments to withdraw” from the West Bank. “I won’t evacuate settlements. Those understandings are invalid and unimportant,” Netanyahu said. As such, Livni changed her tune:
After Netanyahu and senior Likud officials blasted Olmert and Livni’s “promises” and accused Livni of agreeing to divide Jerusalem, she was forced to disassociate herself from the understandings.
“I will advance only an agreement that represents our interests. Maintaining maximum settlers and places that we hold dear such as Jerusalem — not a single refugee will enter,” Livni said.
The Wonk Room’s Matt Duss notes, “When leaders of competing Palestinian factions make maximalist claims to appeal to hardline constituencies, it’s extremism. But when Israeli leaders do it, it’s politics. If the goal of the U.S. and Israel is to strengthen Palestinian moderates like Abu Mazen against Hamas — and people keep telling me that’s the goal — it’s hard to see how this helps.”
Topic Cloud
ArchivesBlog Roll
That figures, the Zionists will always be stealing land.
January 31st, 2009 at 5:04 pmWho the Hell says they are the only ones with a “right” to Jerusalem? Is this opinion based on something as silly and antiquated as Religion?
January 31st, 2009 at 5:05 pmI think they claim their right by some sort of divine prophecy. That it took the Holocaust and American military support for God’s will to be implemented, well God works in mysterious ways.
January 31st, 2009 at 5:17 pmI think someone believes God likes oil.
January 31st, 2009 at 5:18 pmThe Israeli government is not concerned about peace with the Palestinians, or any two state solution — they would happily see every single Palestinian exterminated, which is stunning given the WW2 experience of the Jews.
January 31st, 2009 at 5:19 pmZooey, as long as it doesn’t happen to them, they are happy.
January 31st, 2009 at 5:20 pmOn Noam chomsky’s official site you can find an excellent article(s) on Obama/US/Israel and the peace process! Excellent critique of US’s foringner policies!!!
noamchomsky.com
January 31st, 2009 at 5:24 pmBottom line is, no country has a ‘right’ to exist at the expense of any other.
January 31st, 2009 at 5:26 pmThe Upcoming Israeli elections will determine whether Peace has a Chance.
If Netenyahu wins, George Mitchel’s efforts will be wasted.
I can’t see blaming ALL Israelis for the Carnage and Retribution that exists…..I don’t want to be blamed as an American for what Bush did. I Voted Against him Twice.
January 31st, 2009 at 5:39 pmIsrael’s policies are directly responsible for 911
http://www.juancole.com/2009/01/al-fakhoura-school-bombed-42-killed.html
January 31st, 2009 at 5:41 pmWell the Palestine Holocaust Massacre cleared up one point most refuse to admit. Israel settled on Palestine land. After watching 1300 Palestine men/woman/children get murdered as Israel said it was Hamas now Israel shows it’s all about an election. Israel used illegal cluster bombs, fire bombs and airplanes to bomb citizens even the US safe houses while losing 3 citizens and 10 soldiers. As Olmert and Livni said if one Jewish person dies all Palentine people must die. The plan worked well as this attack was sit in place because Israel knew once Obama took Office he wouldn’t go alone with it. I saw a picture of a Jewish child held by the Nazi and now I got to see Israeli soldiers watching a 4 year old little girl burning to death by one of the fire bombs as the soldiers said every Palestine person should die because they are Hamas. Yes they called that child Hamas now how sick is that.
January 31st, 2009 at 5:43 pmI can’t remember where this came from but I saved it because it was notable:
January 31st, 2009 at 5:45 pm
The only way the Jewish people can claim survival is by returning to the true belief that when it is time, their God will return the Holy land to them.
Not at the expense of anyone else’s blood. Not as a result of warfare. When God wants to call them home, he will. They have spent 2,000 years in the Diaspora, what’s another couple of hundred?
The Jewish people have suffered more than any other group in the past 2,000 years. And have managed to maintain their identity in spite of massive persecution. Have faith, war and killing are not the answer.
January 31st, 2009 at 5:46 pmThe war in Iraq was conceived by 25 neoconservative intellectuals, most of them Jewish, who were pushing President Bush to change the course of history.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=280279&contrassID=2&subContrassID=14&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y
January 31st, 2009 at 5:49 pmWhat you say is true of Israelies and Jews abroad also. Our fight is with the government of Israel, just as those who hold the US responsible should be with us.
Jewish Organisations Call for End to Gaza Bombings
January 31st, 2009 at 5:50 pmIsrael knows the US is all they have in the world. When the US starts leaning on them, they will grudgingly give. They have done it before and they will do it again.
Why do you think they had to attack hammas before the election and the attack ended hours before Obama’s inauguration?
January 31st, 2009 at 5:58 pmObama Must Publicly INSIST that Israel STOP all further Settlement Construction. Period.
This first Step may just get the ball rolling on a Peace Deal.
January 31st, 2009 at 6:12 pmIs it just me, or does anyone else hear “American” accents when Israel presents the voices of its “brave settlers?”
Why is it alright to donate to Israeli terrorism against Palestine, but a crime to donate to Hamas or Hezbollah?
January 31st, 2009 at 6:13 pmChomsky has famously remarked that the very best thing about the Israel/Palestine peace process is that, aas long as there is a ‘process’ in place, you never need to make actual peace…
I expect the peace process to endure longer than velveeta…
January 31st, 2009 at 6:15 pmLivni words are empty ones and she knows it.
The Israelis have been for a long time talking about two states living side by side ,but in the same time they keep annexing Palestinians land and build more settlements.
Very soon there will be no land left for Palestinians to have a country on.
After Saddam Hussein army took over Kuwait in 1990,United States put all its weight to kick Saddam out of Kuwait,and when Saddam asked to negotiate…we in the US,England and most countries refused to negotiate with him and we said there are UN Security resolutions demanding that he leaves Kuwait.
Saddam was given later an ultimatum which lead to a war and sanctions against Saddam regime .
Here we have the same situation..but instead of demanding Israel’s withdrawal from Palestinians land,based on Security Council resolutions,we as a government support Israel militarily,politically and financially.
Livni must have seen the blueprints of building more settlements on Plestinian land,but still she has the nerve to come publicly and claim that Israel will withdraw from settelements, while Israel intends to keep Jerusalem,Golan Heights,and keep the Palsetinians fenced inside their newly divided ghettos surrounded by 12 meter concrete wall which was denounced by World Court as an illegal act by the occupier Israel.
I can’t imagine what it will be like when Natanyahu and the Likud win the coming elections and take charge.
A war with Iran will be not just a talk but a certainty.
January 31st, 2009 at 6:16 pmA new Israeli leader with the guts to actually push for peace doesn’t seem to have emerged yet. Not since Rabin.
.
The concept of a “right to exist” applies only to human beings. When it comes to an organizational entity such as a nation or corporation, “existence” is a privilege. The human beings in question could hypothetically be organized or grouped in other ways.
Fred Says:
…to which the answer is a resounding “How?”
January 31st, 2009 at 6:17 pmIsrael is a neocon bully.
January 31st, 2009 at 6:20 pmIt is going to be difficult to do(two state solution). Bullshit! Tell them both to do it or else.
January 31st, 2009 at 6:23 pmA new Israeli leader with the guts to actually push for peace doesn’t seem to have emerged yet. Not since Rabin.
yeah, they saw what happened to him: Blam Blam! Two to the head.
Killed by his own folks, too.
Who’d take the chance?
January 31st, 2009 at 6:25 pmWhile this is not much of surprise , this is ….
January 31st, 2009 at 6:31 pmhttp://www.alternet.org/audits/122810/controversial_bestseller_shakes_the_foundation_of_the_israeli_state/
If the contentions of this Israeli experts book are correct , the vast majority of Jews living in Israel are not Semitic at all but descendants of North Africans who converted to Judaism early in it’s history and far more European than North African at that .
Palestinians are much more Semitic than their Israeli counterparts .
The one state solution for Israel.
January 31st, 2009 at 6:33 pmThe one world solution for the US !
LIVNI: Israel is a state of law and order.
Whose law and whose order?
January 31st, 2009 at 6:39 pmhhhmmmm, now who else had a policy of settling occupied lands?
let’s think now, early 20th century.
they also claimed they were defending “germanic peoples” living in neighboring nations by staging pre-emptive wars againsts these neighboring nations. Only this time god “promised” them this land.
created ghettos just like israel is doing with gaza and the west bank.
Too bad the politicians of israel have become what they despised.
January 31st, 2009 at 6:41 pm.
Of course it’s not war crimes when Israel does it…
.
January 31st, 2009 at 6:45 pmwindsor
January 31st, 2009 at 6:46 pmAbout those bjs…
windsor Says:
January 31st, 2009 at 6:44 pm
Maybe you’re a sick, perverted person who needs to be educated a little more than you clearly haven’t been so far.
January 31st, 2009 at 6:47 pmPuleeze, Hoodathunk. This is just bunk.
January 31st, 2009 at 6:50 pmFreeman says:
‘The one state solution for Israel’
——————————-
It is called ISRATINE..
(ISRAEL + PALISTINE)
Go to
Isratine.net
January 31st, 2009 at 6:54 pmSo I quess the 2 state solution can only work if the Palestinians can build their state in the sky because there will be no place in Palestine that the Zionists will allow them ?
January 31st, 2009 at 6:54 pmfreeman Says:
The one state solution for Israel.
You know it’s odd how everybody dismisses one (non-apartheid) state for Israel out of hand without really discussing it. Kind of like how everybody dismissed a multi-state solution for Iraq without really discussing it.
.
Bozo The Neoclown Says:
hhhmmmm, now who else had a policy of settling occupied lands?
Actually, a better parallel is the Ulstermen in Northern Ireland – England was specifically exporting Protestants to move there so they could vote against independence.
.
windsor Says:
Maybe United States Ambassador to the United Kingdom, Joe Kennedy Sr., was correct…
No, he was not. Go back to the rock you crawled out from under.
.
wiley Says:
Puleeze, Hoodathunk. This is just bunk.
No, Hoodathunk is quite correct. Although Gypsies are a close second. Mind you, I read that not as having a single instance that out-suffers all groups within that entire time-span, but the total of instances of suffering across the entire time-span at the hands of other groups.
January 31st, 2009 at 7:00 pmYou don’t have to leave our shores to find a nation that forced the native inhabitants off their land or put them in ghettos.
January 31st, 2009 at 7:03 pmWell, you know what they say….
Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East (just as long as your skin is white and you’re a Jew).
January 31st, 2009 at 7:03 pmI have a better idea , lets abolish the nation state altogether ! It’s been no more than a legal entity created inorder to conduct war .
January 31st, 2009 at 7:04 pmGermany was a collection of small kingdoms before the Kaiser and Bismark conquered them and took the newly formed farce to war .
Spain is made up of largely autonomous regions , Andalusia ,Catalonia ,ect and even those don’t serve the basques .
Israeli’s are a religious group of largely European ethnicity .
yeah, elbruce, because we all know the government of israel is strongly urging their people not to settle in the occupied region of gaza. because based on the past policies of israel, we all know they plan in good faith in returning it to the countries from which they illegally stole it from, right?
January 31st, 2009 at 7:06 pmwiley,
January 31st, 2009 at 7:06 pmLeave Hoodathunk alone.
He doesn’t realize that Native Americans aren’t Jewish enough to be counted…
*left bank, not gaza. my mistake
January 31st, 2009 at 7:06 pmWiley, if you can name one time or one national group that did not try to blame their ‘problems’ on the Jews in the last 2,000 years, I’d like to hear about it.
One caveat is they had Jews living in their area so the Aztecs and Polynesians don’t count.
January 31st, 2009 at 7:07 pmHoodathunk, the chinese and japanese. what’s my prize?
January 31st, 2009 at 7:08 pmSorry, Bozo, I didn’t realize that Li Bao Moscowitz was big in the Asian phone book.
January 31st, 2009 at 7:09 pmMax, I didn’t say they were the only ones who got screwed.
January 31st, 2009 at 7:09 pmNative Americans didn’t learn about Western practices until the 17th century
January 31st, 2009 at 7:12 pmOne caveat is they had Jews living in their area
damn, missed that part. i am starting the think i am the child left behind
January 31st, 2009 at 7:12 pmI wouldn’t be surprised to see Livni win. Polls show that Israel is sick to death with this constant fighting. When a recent poll showed that sixty-four percent of Israeli’s want direct talks with Hamas, you would think their leaders would listen. But they don’t. So perhaps Livni can do what the people of Israel want. What a refreshing that change would be.
January 31st, 2009 at 7:12 pmIs there no end to their treachery?
January 31st, 2009 at 7:12 pmIf Israel ever considered the two-state solution (and there is no real empirical evidence it did.Rabin flirted with it, perhaps), that eventuality is clearly opposed by Israel now.
First choice seems to be to rid itself of responsibility for as many Palestinians as possible by handing over (or dumping) sovereignty over them to Egypt and Jordan, with a plan-B alternative of keeping them in bantustans without freedom or citizenship. Certainly there is no intention to roll back settlements, share Jerusalem or, most importantly, allow anyone else any say in what borders Israel chooses for itself.
In fact it reserves the right not choose.
January 31st, 2009 at 7:12 pmElbruce ,
January 31st, 2009 at 7:15 pmI believe that there have been many acts of genocide conducted over the last several thousand years ,in many places , although if you were to say the most persecuted group in the last century or in Europe after the moors we’re pushed back into North Africa by The Reyes Catholica I would agree .
However even the historical ( Semitic ) Jews practiced genocide , The exploits of which are well chronicled in the old testament .
Ironically the Jews have always found a safe haven amidst the muslim world and still do quite wellfor instance ,in Morrocco , Algeria and Iran ,to name a few .
The only honest statement that ever came out of Israel was uttered by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon…
“Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear. Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it.”
January 31st, 2009 at 7:19 pm- Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001.
Let’s just stick with this one and not worry about who screwed who when.
Bottom line is, no country has a ‘right’ to exist at the expense of any other.
January 31st, 2009 at 7:20 pmIn europe as in most of the rest of the world if you travel 30 miles from where you started the people speak a different dialect !
January 31st, 2009 at 7:22 pmAbout 20 years ago I was with my wifes aunt touring the countryside around Munich when we stopped at a resturant to have lunch . She said to me , go on ,read the menu . I became very embarrased and said I thought my German was better but that I couldn’t manage a word of it . She laughed and said that although she had been living in Bavaria for many years …. she couldn’t either .
If this doesn’t work out the ” I was name jacked” excuse might be useful. Just saying…
January 31st, 2009 at 7:23 pmAND SHE”S ” GERMAN “.
January 31st, 2009 at 7:23 pmLMAO!
January 31st, 2009 at 7:25 pmBozo The Neoclown Says:
yeah, elbruce, because we all know the government of israel is strongly urging their people not to settle in the occupied region of gaza. because based on the past policies of israel, we all know they plan in good faith in returning it to the countries from which they illegally stole it from, right?
All I “know” is that every society seems to consist of about 25% good people, 25% rat bastards, and 50% people who don’t really think about politics, and who just go with whatever the popular opinion seems to be. The trick is to get the good people to win over the majority of opinion. Then the nation changes its mind about what it will or will not do.
But societies aren’t individuals, don’t work like individuals, can’t be dealt with like individuals, and can’t be assigned credit or blame like individuals.
.
Max-1 Says:
He doesn’t realize that Native Americans aren’t Jewish enough to be counted…
They’ve been discriminated against for 2,000 years? I think you’re completely missing Hooda’s point here.
January 31st, 2009 at 7:30 pmKay apparently the Zionist is attempting to make citizenship in a Palestine state an out of body experience .
January 31st, 2009 at 7:31 pmHave Jews been sold into slavery?
If Jews have really been persecuted everywhere, just for being Jews (which I rather doubt) then maybe it’s time to ask what the problem really is.
January 31st, 2009 at 7:33 pmWork out? If that last comment offends, have a nice night. Otherwise, go play with wiley.
January 31st, 2009 at 7:43 pmAhmadinejad Greeted by Anti-Zionist Jews in New York
January 31st, 2009 at 7:44 pmhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_XAeqtY7Sk
Jewish Rabbi: Zionists are Godless Criminal Thugs
January 31st, 2009 at 7:46 pmhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1NLdRVkJiA&feature=related
Al jazerra
Rabbi Weiss Criticizes Zionist Occupation of Palestine
January 31st, 2009 at 7:48 pmhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqBJTBIUtM8&feature=related
Israel hides behind this badge of victim-hood. Enough already. Criticism is not persecution. To have anything shy of unwavering support of Israel treated as victimization is ridiculous. Israel has been getting away with murder for a long time. If anyone saw the White House website asking if we should reconsider our position with Israel, they would have seen that criticism for Israel was much greater than support. It’s about time.
I think the people being murdered today are the most relevant. It’s time to stop milking the collective guilt over the Holocaust and the history of Jewish persecution.
January 31st, 2009 at 7:55 pmwiley Says:
Have Jews been sold into slavery?
_______
I’m going to hazard a guess and say, “Yeah, prolly at one time or another.”
Wasn’t that the problem w/ Moses and Pharaoh?
Ancient Rome, when Romans held the ME? Prolly.
January 31st, 2009 at 8:04 pmYou might have a point, ROS. But do you have archaeological evidence to support it? I tend to take biblical stories with a grain of salt.
January 31st, 2009 at 8:16 pmI’m surprised Daryll, aka RuptureReady, hasn’t chimed in because, if I understand the Born Again cult correctly, Israel cannot be divided into the “two state solution” because only a united Israel will bring the second coming of Jesus. Or is it the Rapture? Kind of a chicken/egg dilemma… can’t keep my CultFactoids straight.
But in order for this SciFi to occur, Israel must be returned to the Jews, which is why Fundies are GOP/Neocons. Sort of the final tumbler falling into place that opens the door to the Outer Limits.
Me? I’m for…
PEACE
January 31st, 2009 at 8:17 pmwiley Says:
You might have a point, ROS. But do you have archaeological evidence to support it? I tend to take biblical stories with a grain of salt.
_________
I cede (heh… good word, huh?) yer point about Moses, but Masada is an actual archeological site. The Romans took a lot of people for slaves and no doubt some of them were Jews.
Since then? Dunno, except for isolated incidents… can’t point to anything on the scale of the W European/American slave trade of the 16th to 19th centuries.
January 31st, 2009 at 8:20 pmIf Netanyahu should succeed, a bad situation will get worse.
January 31st, 2009 at 8:41 pmThat man has never bee willing to compromise – he is an extremist.
Will Israel attack Iran? They may be too busy to negotiate a peace treaty.
http://news.antiwar.com/2009/01/30/israeli-envoy-attack-on-gaza-a-preintroduction-to-attack-on-iran/
The election is ten days away. Livni has said Iran was not an existential threat in the past, but she could change that tune, too. Netanyahu compares Iran to the Third Reich. Very strange. He also thinks eliminating the “existential threat” that Iran poses will solve his problems with Hamas.
January 31st, 2009 at 9:05 pmTHE RIGHT QUESTION: Do Palestinians have a right to defend themselves?
January 31st, 2009 at 9:10 pmAs long as complicit Mainstream Media continues to stupify the American public, the RIGHT QUESTIONS will never be asked.
January 31st, 2009 at 9:12 pmThese settlements are the pits. What it does is create Palestinians as second class citizens in their own land.
Israel doesn’t want peace, they want complete domination of that region.
January 31st, 2009 at 9:12 pmfreeman Says:
AND SHE”S ” GERMAN
Born in Tel Aviv, Livni is the daughter of Eitan Livni (born in Poland) and Sara Rosenberg, both prominent former Irgun members
From Wiki
January 31st, 2009 at 9:16 pmwindsor Says:
Maybe United States Ambassador to the United Kingdom, Joe Kennedy Sr., was correct when he opined that Hilter should be allowed to solve his “Jewish” problem before we got involved. I guess Japan jumped the gun.
Go stir the pot someplace else you idiot.
January 31st, 2009 at 9:24 pmPossibly now, Iraq:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28931928/
“How can we not vote? All of us here have always complained about being oppressed and not having a leader who represented us. Now is our chance,” said Basra voter Abdul Hussein Nuri.
January 31st, 2009 at 9:35 pmsuzysmom Says:
___________
Wow… just… wow… off your meds for the weekend?
Drop… the… bomb… on the WH… and WE’RE the “hateful ones”?
Your post is a desperate cry for help. I truly hope you find it.
January 31st, 2009 at 9:37 pmbackup Says:
LONG LIVE ISRAEL< the ONLY DEMOCRACY IN THE MIDDLE EAST
Possibly now, Iraq:
___________________
Care to give that a little more thought, Captain?
http://www.zimbio.com/Suffrage/articles/3/Middle+Eastern+Countries+Barbaric+Civilized
Women can vote and be elected in the following ME countries:
Iraq, Lebanon, Israel, Jordan, Egypt, Palestinian territories, Bahrain, Oman, Qatar, Yemen, Morocco, Tunis, Algeria, Iran, Turkey, and Algeria
January 31st, 2009 at 9:41 pmSo, modern Israel is being jerks to the Palestinians and all of a sudden all of the antisemitic memes that have been discredited for decades pop up at TP. Great. “Zionist” as an epithet. Jews haven’t “really” been repeatedly oppressed and murdered for the last two millenia. Or they had it coming. Or other people have had it worse. Next thing we’re going to have Holocaust deniers up in here. I’m bringing the hammer down on this sh!t.
Jews have been persecuted in more places, by more people, at more times, and in more ways than any other group you can name. They were burned in the Inquisition through forced conversion. Their villages were subject to repeated destruction in the pogroms of Poland and Russia, for centuries. Any nation they’ve ever lived in has gone through cycles of tolerance, brutalization, and expulsion, depending on the whim of who’s in charge that decade. In every nation they’ve ever lived, they’ve been constantly restricted as to where they could live, what they could wear, how they could travel, who they could marry, what they could own, and what jobs they could have. That’s every nation in the greater European, African and Middle Eastern areas, for over two thousand years. That’s without even getting in to the Holocaust.
Sure, you can point at one time and/or place here and there where they did OK, but it has never been permanent, anywhere. They’ve never been able to rely on it. Or, you can nitpick that here or there another group was briefly treated even worse, but that doesn’t make this persistent pattern of mistreatment any less. And of course in most of the places where they’ve been mistreated, others hvae been mistreated at the same time, but those others don’t form such a common thread of getting their asses kicked throughout time and space.
So the “Zionist” idea was, maybe if they had their own country they wouldn’t have to keep their fingers crossed all the time that whatever country they lived in wouldn’t turn on them – again. They wouldn’t have to go begging to other countries to migrate when the last one kicked them out under threat of death. Given the amount of history behind their mistreatment, it doesn’t seem like such a bad idea at the time.
Me, I personally think that the U.S.A. or a similarly configured government is a better solution, because separation of church and state, equal protection under the law and democracy afford more long term protection against religious and racial discrimination than even having an officially-Jewish nation.
It is perfectly correct that such a history does not justify the actions of Israel today against the Palestinians. Not even remotely, not even a little bit. In fact, in my view, Israel has an even greater moral responsibility to do right by them than most countries. Because they should know better.
But: the wrongness of the behavior of Israel today does not justify the idea that its creation was some evil plot to screw over Palestinians to begin with, nor does it justify saying that maybe the Jews didn’t really have it so bad for the last 2,000 years. To people who would argue such, my response is both simple and concise: F**K YOU.
.
wiley Says:
If Jews have really been persecuted everywhere, just for being Jews (which I rather doubt) then maybe it’s time to ask what the problem really is.
Apparently, the problem is people like you. That’s exactly what the Nazis said, and what the neo-Nazis say today.
January 31st, 2009 at 9:41 pmwiley Says:
Have Jews been sold into slavery?
If Jews have really been persecuted everywhere, just for being Jews (which I rather doubt) then maybe it’s time to ask what the problem really is.
Guess you aren’t familiar with the Old Testament, huh? They were slaves in both Egypt and Babylonia. As far as being persecuted “everywhere,” just for being Jews, it’s been pretty widespread over the years. Most of Europe, Russia (ever hear of pograms?) In the U.S., they weren’t persecuted by the government, but they were certainly ill-treated among certain segments of our population. Before and after WWII, the bigotry was pretty severe. Not all that long ago, there were a number of country clubs that had “No Jew” policies. The U.S. government DID refuse to allow at least one ship with Jewish refugees, fleeing Hitler, to dock in the U.S.
So their history isn’t a pleasant one. However, that’s hardly an excuse to become like their old enemies, which is what I perceive the Israeli government’s behavior toward the Palestinians. Despite their own suffering, they seem to have (as a government at any rate) little compassion for the suffering of others.
January 31st, 2009 at 9:42 pmWhy should Zionists, whether Jew, Christian or Atheist, give an inch?
They know they can get away with this stuff ever since 1947, when (with Harry Truman’s help) 33 Christian and Commie countries voted to give them 55% of Palestine even though they constituted only 31% of the population. The best land too, according to libertarian Sheldon Richman. See his “Ancient History:” U.S. Conduct in the Middle East Since World War II and the Folly of Intervention.
Truman showed his frustration with these people in his July 21, 1947 diary entry. It’s pretty nasty.
January 31st, 2009 at 9:51 pmSo now I’ve persecuted Jews, have I Bruce? See how easy it is.
January 31st, 2009 at 9:53 pmsuzysmom Says:
YOU LIBERALS< THE KOOL AID HAS KILLED YOUR BRAIN CELLS
________
Gee… how… how… righteously you condemn us all.
Stereotype much, when it fits your mood?
January 31st, 2009 at 9:59 pmLONG LIVE ISRAEL< the ONLY DEMOCRACY IN THE MIDDLE EAST
I’m still a little fresh on this democracy thing, having only lived in one a couple decades, but I cant ever recall the democrats or republicans ever banning the other party from participating in elections…
January 31st, 2009 at 10:04 pmHey everyone,
suzysmom supports the indiscriminate killing of Palestinians.
So suzysmom,
January 31st, 2009 at 10:07 pmI suppose it would be correct to kill the hostages when the bank robber attempts to rob it? Or even better, blow up the plane the next time hijackers take it? Am I following your logic here?
.
Of course we can differentiate between Jews and Zionism…
… NO?
.
January 31st, 2009 at 10:10 pmMax-1 Says:
So suzysmom,
I suppose it would be correct to kill the hostages when the bank robber attempts to rob it?
He would probably drop a daisy cutter on the bank.
January 31st, 2009 at 10:11 pmYou and jeff davis should get together. sedition are you all.
I really hope the secret service pays you a little visit. If they don’t they will miss a chance to arrest a true terrorist right here in America.
January 31st, 2009 at 10:14 pmsuzysmom, grow up!!!
January 31st, 2009 at 10:19 pm
Republic. You’re right there our other countries that vote. There was talk about democracy and I was just pointing out the recent election in Iraq.
Despite all the problems in Iraq, I’m sure you would agree that it’s positive there are now free elections they didn’t have in the past.
Additionally, they abandoned me over on the Tillman thread. What’s your take on Chomsky’s impression that Obama is continuing Bush policy in Pakistan and Afghanistan:
http://www.presstv.ir/Detail.aspx?id=83595§ionid=3510302
January 31st, 2009 at 10:22 pmwiley Says:
So now I’ve persecuted Jews, have I Bruce? See how easy it is.
You implied that they have been the reason for their own persecution. I pointed out some others who subscribe to the same belief, and asserted that those who espouse that belief are in fact a real causal factor in the persecution of Jews.
.
suzysmom Says:
YOU LIBERALS< THE KOOL AID HAS KILLED YOUR BRAIN CELLS
I’m drinking Crystal Lite. What does that make me, politically speaking?
January 31st, 2009 at 10:24 pmbackup Says:
Despite all the problems in Iraq, I’m sure you would agree that it’s positive there are now free elections they didn’t have in the past.
______________
If you’re pointing out that life is hopefully getting better for those poor, tortured people… yes.
If you’re trying to use this as justification for Botch’s adventurism… that discussion will have to take place another night. I’m gone after this.
No… I’m not happy w/ Obama apparently pursuing the same policy in Pakistan.
I haven’t watched the Chomsky video so I can’t comment on it. I would like to think there is a better way to solve this problem. I’m afraid that if the US continues along this path, there will be even worse convulsions in Pakistan, and unlike Iraq or Iran, Pakistan DOES have a nuclear arsenal.
But then I’ve said all along that Pakistan was prolly the FAR BIGGER problem down the road. I hate it when I’m right all the time.
January 31st, 2009 at 10:34 pmsuzysmom Says:
Fred,
Israel gave back Gaza in 2005 and owns only 59% of the WB
_____________
Ya know, suzysmom, it’s a lot easier to listen to you and try to get your point when you stop SHOUTING and use “facts” in your argument.
Damn those “facts”… heh… they sure change the tenor of a discussion, huh?
January 31st, 2009 at 10:37 pmsuzysmom Says:
Fred,
do you have a job? or are you a lazy, fat ahole on welfare and food stamps your whole life? thats why you want more, bigger govt to take care of you
_____________
See? This is just a meaningless insult.
January 31st, 2009 at 10:38 pmsuzysmom,
I find you and your comments offensive. I see the very same hate in your remarks of which you accuse us. I see a love of violence in you of which your daughter, suzy, should be ashamed. I pity suzy, having to grow up with a mom filled with so much hate.
January 31st, 2009 at 10:41 pmsuzysmom Says:
Fred,
Israel gave back Gaza in 2005 and owns only 59% of the WB
Then Hamas won democratically and Israel, with the support of the US political establishment implemented a blockade that had left the Palestinians rummaging through garbage for food.
do you have a job? or are you a lazy, fat ahole on welfare and food stamps your whole life? thats why you want more, bigger govt to take care of you
January 31st, 2009 at 10:43 pmTypical, when all else fails, project or own shortcoming on other people. It’s ok if you have been on food stamps suzy. Just remember, liberal policies are what fed you when you were hungry, and made it affordable for you to have a roof over your head when your minimum wage (liberal policy) job didn’t quite earn you enough for rent. We are not the ones you should be fighting.
suzysmom apparently failed to notice the blockade of Gaza, which rendered it much the same as the Warsaw Ghetto. She demonstrates that blind ideology leads to moronic spewing at the mouth.
I feel sorry for suzy, having such an idiot for a parent.
January 31st, 2009 at 10:46 pmSorry, Wayne. Didn’t see your comment before posting mine. :|
January 31st, 2009 at 10:48 pmIsrael is the new gay. I sense a switch in spewed hatred moving from gays to Jews.
Personally, I think Israel needs to be reigned in….NOW!
January 31st, 2009 at 10:48 pmpax,
I don’t see anyone here spewing hatred toward the Jews. We simply condemn and abhor the actions of the Israeli government toward the Palestinians.
January 31st, 2009 at 10:52 pmsuzysmom,
I won’t to speak for all liberals (or liberal-libertarians, like me), but I’ll give you a perspective that you probably never considered. I live in New York (north of the City), but I do live near Connecticut. If someone were lobbing bombs over the border, I doubt it would be six thousands bombs, and several years later, before the cops found them and stopped them, arrested them, tried them, hopefully convicted them, and then imprisoned them, the way Justice is supposed to work. There is a difference between the actions of criminals (Crimes) and the actions of nation states (Acts of War). Lots of “terrorist” organizations claim to be in a “war”, but that doesn’t make it so.
I’ll go further, beyond this issue, and tell you that as far as I’m concerned, the attacks of 9/11 were crimes, not “Acts of War”, and did not justify sending our Army into another nation. (A small unit sent to gather intelligence, or possibly assasinate bin Laden, is a different story.) It should have been investigated as a crime, with the willing and honest cooperation of nations willing to do so (such as Iran, which did offer to help.) But, for reasons only truly known to Bush, he chose to react as if it were a declaration of war by another nation.
January 31st, 2009 at 10:52 pmbackup Says:
What’s your take on Chomsky’s impression that Obama is continuing Bush policy in Pakistan and Afghanistan:
Chomsky was accurate. However, Obama is a learned who undoubtedly knows the history of armies in that region. As conscious as O is about history, I doubt he wants to be the second coming of LBJ, who might have gone down in history with the stature of Roosevelt had he not let Vietnam siphon money and political capitol away from his plans. We will see the course he takes
January 31st, 2009 at 10:54 pmAs far as Afghanistan is conerned, I say we should give this temporary buildup a little time to “work” (unspecified length, but not year”s”), then pull out and re-think how to combat the problem of people finding it necessary to use terrorism to achieve their goals. That is the real issue, not revenge for past incidents.
Not all acts of violence need to be responded to with more violence.
January 31st, 2009 at 10:55 pmYou know, I feel really bad for Suzy to have such a bitter and moronic parent.
January 31st, 2009 at 10:56 pmWayne A. Schneider S
January 31st, 2009 at 11:02 pmI’ll go further, beyond this issue, and tell you that as far as I’m concerned, the attacks of 9/11 were crimes, not “Acts of War”, and did not justify sending our Army into another nation.
-
Terrorist groups are criminal conspiracies with political objectives. We don’t need to go to ‘war’ with crime syndicates; we need to infiltrate, disrupt, and neutralize their activities.
ElBruce
You can bring the hammer down all you want. First of all these are Ashkenaz Jews. It is a fact that Ethiopian Jews are more “jewish.”
Next the shit you say is just that shit. Yes Ashkenaz Jews had it hard. But in your haste to label people who speak up against the massacre of Palestinians as antisemitic is just crazy.
I will continue to speak against Ashkenaz murderers. So have at it.
The Ashkenaz Jews are murderers and they are doing exactly what the nazis did to them. Plus they are on Palestinians’ land. The Palestinian Holocaust is worse than Ashkenaz murderers.
BTW — Don’t forget the Africans who had it worst.
January 31st, 2009 at 11:12 pmGame of Life Says:
BTW — Don’t forget the Africans who had it worst.
Given the choice, I would rather be gassed than crammed in the hull of a ship wallowing in my own blood and feces until starvation or disease consumed me.
January 31st, 2009 at 11:21 pmSuzymom,you said:
“Fred,
do you have a job? or you are a lazy fatahole on welfareand food stamps your whole life? that’s why you want more,bigger government to take care of you”.
—————————————
You attacked Fred and wondered whether he has a job or not. your question is not related at all to the topic of discussion and meant only to isnult.
If you are interested in welfare and wasted government money,then you should call you your Congressman and demand to stop the welfare check that Israel gets every month in the hundreds of millions of dollars..that’s related to the topic of discussion and not Fred.
It is Israel who is looking for bigger government with bigger check,and not Fred.
January 31st, 2009 at 11:30 pmwhen they drop their bombs on your children here in US , i wonder if you will smile and forgive them.
Which “they” are you talking about here, suzysmom.
January 31st, 2009 at 11:34 pmBeen out of the blogosphere for a bit, and come back to find a poor girl whose mother sees one side of the issue and freaks out with fear. The repuglycan stuff works well on this one.
January 31st, 2009 at 11:39 pmsuzysmom Says:
zooey,
the blockade was to prevent Iran and other terrorist nations from smuggling in bombs and weapons.
when they drop their bombs on your children here in US , i wonder if you will smile and forgive them.
If the blockade was about rockets, why did Israel block vitally needed diesel?
Gaza Health Risk as Sewage Floods Streets as Israeli Attacks Continue
Fears of a public health crisis in Gaza grew today as sewage started flooding into the streets because of a shortage of fuel to run pumps.
Also, Hamas rockets barley explode when they hit the ground in Israel. The notion that a lightly armed nationalist resistance group in impoverished Palestine can mount the resources to rain bombs on Idaho is delusion on par with an acid trip.
January 31st, 2009 at 11:42 pmDru P, you may be on to something. The Acid trip part. That would explain the extreme paranoia.
January 31st, 2009 at 11:44 pmsuzysmom Says:
dru p,
i think you are really brain dead
i have worked since i was 17. im a geology professor at a small college in the midwest
January 31st, 2009 at 11:46 pm
Such a cogent response from an alleged college professor.
January 31st, 2009 at 11:50 pmsuzysmom Says:
dru p,
i think you are really brain dead
I don’t think that word means what you “think” it means. Again, Hamas raining death on Idaho? Also, geology? How old is the Earth?
January 31st, 2009 at 11:52 pmDru P….Old as dirt?
January 31st, 2009 at 11:53 pmsuzysmom,
Has teaching at that small Midwest college caused you to forget how to think critically? What Hamas is committing are Crimes, not Acts of War, no matter what they call them. They should be treated as such.
When the UN tries to condemn Israel for blowing up their building, do you think the US will let them?
January 31st, 2009 at 11:55 pmRUCerious Says:
Dru P….Old as dirt?
Older than that, I’d have to say. ;)
January 31st, 2009 at 11:57 pmGame of Life Says:
First of all these are Ashkenaz Jews. It is a fact that Ethiopian Jews are more “jewish.”
I’m not sure what you mean by that, since the Ethiopian Primary Chronicle traces their Judaism through Solomon and the Queen of Sheba, which is a very early split. But it doesn’t matter. Jewish identity is neither genetic, nationalistic or even cultural, but it is an all-or-nothing proposition. It’s very un-Jewish to talk about who’s “more” Jewish.
.
Game of Life Says:
Yes Ashkenaz Jews had it hard. But in your haste to label people who speak up against the massacre of Palestinians as antisemitic is just crazy.
I didn’t label people who speak up against the massacre of Palestinians. I speak up against the massacre of Palestinians myself. I was “labeling” people who are using that as an excuse to belittle the persecution and pogroms of Jews for over two milennia, to vilify Judaism in general, and/or a variety of other memes that were until very recently only espoused by neo-Nazis.
The state of Israel =/= Judaism.
.
Game of Life Says:
I will continue to speak against Ashkenaz murderers. So have at it.
The Ashkenaz Jews are murderers and they are doing exactly what the nazis did to them. Plus they are on Palestinians’ land. The Palestinian Holocaust is worse than Ashkenaz murderers.
OK, so you’re not being anti-semitic, you’re just anti-Ashkenazi, so that’s OK? That’s a messed up distinction to base moral claims off of, and one which neither the Ashkenazi, the Sephardim, nor the Habashim (Ethiopian Jews) would recognize.
.
Game of Life Says:
BTW — Don’t forget the Africans who had it worst.
I already discussed the tactic of bringing up a group who had worse treatment in a more limited time and place. Are you saying that slavery of Africans excuses Jewish persecution? If not, why bring it up?
.
Dru P. Says:
Given the choice, I would rather be gassed than crammed in the hull of a ship wallowing in my own blood and feces until starvation or disease consumed me.
The majority of the Jews in concentration camps weren’t gassed, they were crammed into barracks wallowing in their own blood and feces until starvation or disease consumed them. The remainder were gassed.
But seriously, what’s the point in comparing? If one abomination is found to be worse than the other (either way) does that let the other abomination off the hook? I say no. You and GoL seem to imply otherwise.
.
suzysmom Says:
when they drop their bombs on your children here in US , i wonder if you will smile and forgive them.
Jesus would. But it’s a moot point, because the Palestinians won’t. That’s like me saying, “When the Republican party comes in the night to stab you in your bed, will you smile and forgive them? Better kill them all before they get you!” See, that makes no sense and is unfair. So is the thing that you said.
January 31st, 2009 at 11:58 pmsuzysmom Says:
wayne, the ‘they’ is the next wave of islamofascists that will probably bomb the US now that our military and war on terrorism is weakened.
Dru P you really should get a grip, ‘the rockets’ barely exploded?
YOU people, even David Dershowitz and CHUCK YOU SHUMER supported Israels attack on Gaza.
January 31st, 2009 at 11:57 pm
Wow. How frightened you must be. You really fear for your life from a terrorist attack in the Midwest? You have to stop listening to the radical right wing, because you do not understand the real threat to your life. I fear domestic terrorists more than I do foreign ones. Not all bombings in the US were committed by foreigners, you know. Some were done by conservatives. Should we round up all conservatives? No.
And the Hamas rockets were not nearly as destructive as Israel’s all-out military offensive against one of the most densely packed regions inthe world.
And the fact that you seem to equate us (as in “YOU people”) with those famous Jews who support Israel’s actions is beyond ignorant. It’s almost as if you think all liberals are Jewish.
February 1st, 2009 at 12:02 amSuzymom says:
” I’m a geology professor at a small college in the midwest”.
———————————————-
First, it is good that it is a small college that you teach at.
Secondly, you can teach extra two courses in ‘insulting’ on the side of courses you claimed to be teaching now in geology.
February 1st, 2009 at 12:03 amAs I recall the only terrorist attack on the midwest was by a disgruntled white guy
February 1st, 2009 at 12:06 amIf we could all just pumice to be gneiss, I believe we would marble at how coal it could be.
February 1st, 2009 at 12:07 amsuzysmom Says:
wayne, the ‘they’ is the next wave of islamofascists that will probably bomb the US now that our military and war on terrorism is weakened.
If there is going to be another wave of violent Islamic extremists (p.s: they have nothing to do with fascism), it would be because the wingnuts have completely inflamed them through the actions of the U.S. and Israel against them. We should stop doing that.
.
suzysmom Says:
Dru P you really should get a grip, ‘the rockets’ barely exploded?
I don’t know about the construction of the rockets, so let’s do this: you tell me how many people the rockets killed instead of how many rockets there were, and we can go from there. Fair?
.
suzysmom Says:
you are all a bunch of antisemits.
If you’re going to make such a claim, please direct it at specific comments made by specific commenters, and support each criticism. In fact, for now you’d better just leave the whole “what’s antisemitic” thing to me. I’ve got it covered.
.
RUCerious Says:
As I recall the only terrorist attack on the midwest was by a disgruntled white guy
…as are nearly all serial killers. If we were going to be logical about our mass cowardly paranoia, we’d do much better to round up and incarcerate all the grumpy middle-aged white guys. But that’d be most of the Republican party in jail.
February 1st, 2009 at 12:10 amsuzysmom Says:
January 31st, 2009 at 11:58 pm
Flagged.
February 1st, 2009 at 12:14 amThanks, ElBruce. I don’t like being called an anti-Semite just because I think the government of Israel is wrong.
February 1st, 2009 at 12:15 amsuzysmom,
Why don’t you just admit that you’re a hater. None of your conservative friends will think the worst of you.
February 1st, 2009 at 12:16 amsuzysmom Says:
Dru P you really should get a grip, ‘the rockets’ barely exploded?
Much of the damage they do is simply by sheer blunt force, accented by shrapnel. Compare the Palestinian Qassam with the damage done by X000 pound GPS guided bombs and artillery shells used by the IDF. If someone wants to claim that Hamas is a serious, even deadly nuisance to the citizens of southern Israel, I can agree with that. If they want to claim that Hamas is a threat to Israel’s existence, that is ridiculous.
uzysmom Says:
why dont you Ebruce drup just admit that you are jew haters. none of your liberal friends will think the worst of you.
He is as much a jew hater as you are a coherent poster.
February 1st, 2009 at 12:16 ambackup Says:
If we could all just pumice to be gneiss, I believe we would marble at how coal it could be.
February 1st, 2009 at 12:07 am
Heh!
February 1st, 2009 at 12:17 ambackup! you rock!
February 1st, 2009 at 12:21 amBut seriously, what’s the point in comparing? If one abomination is found to be worse than the other (either way) does that let the other abomination off the hook? I say no. You and GoL seem to imply otherwise.
It was a statement in the abstract. My point wasnt to midigate. I doubt the agony I feel hearing the story of my grandmother’s grandmother is different from the agony a Jew feels hearing the stories of his grandmother. I see all of humanities triumphs as ours and all of its failings as likewise.
February 1st, 2009 at 12:30 amsuzysmom Says:
why dont you Ebruce drup just admit that you are jew haters. none of your liberal friends will think the worst of you.
I don’t usually offer or accept personal information in the context of a valid discussion, but I don’t see your comment as being substantive or in any way worth any form of reasoned criticism. So I’ll just mention in passing that my daughter is a Jew. And that you have no idea what the hell you’re talking about.
February 1st, 2009 at 12:31 amDru P. Says:
It was a statement in the abstract. My point wasnt to midigate. I doubt the agony I feel hearing the story of my grandmother’s grandmother is different from the agony a Jew feels hearing the stories of his grandmother.
Fair enough.
Hey, I just thought of a useful way to use that comparison: assigning blame to Judaism for what Israel is doing to the Palestinians is like assigning blame to all Africans and African-Americans for what Sudan is doing in Darfur. In no way do the actions of a nation which lays claim to a specific heritage invalidate the heritage itself or its history of achievement and suffering.
February 1st, 2009 at 12:36 amOff topic – the opening Joke by Obama at the Alfalfa dinner:
Ha!
February 1st, 2009 at 12:38 amElBruce Says:
In no way do the actions of a nation which lays claim to a specific heritage invalidate the heritage itself or its history of achievement and suffering.
That is one of the biggest points I try to communicate to fellow atheist/agnostics when they adopt harshly undiplomatic language toward people of faith.
February 1st, 2009 at 12:45 amElBruce Says:
Ha!
It’s going to be a fun 4-8 years. Hard, but fun.
February 1st, 2009 at 12:48 amWell, crap! El Bruce, and here I thought it was a celebration of ‘Our Gang’!!
February 1st, 2009 at 12:48 amOK, so you’re not being anti-semitic, you’re just anti-Ashkenazi, so that’s OK?
Since you put it that way, you’re right.
February 1st, 2009 at 12:49 amFirst of all these are Ashkenaz Jews. It is a fact that Ethiopian Jews are more “jewish.”
I’m not sure what you mean by that, since the Ethiopian Primary Chronicle traces their Judaism through Solomon and the Queen of Sheba, which is a very early split. But it doesn’t matter. Jewish identity is neither genetic, nationalistic or even cultural, but it is an all-or-nothing proposition. It’s very un-Jewish to talk about who’s “more” Jewish.
It means that Ethiopian Jews following a much older religion and are more traditional in their teachings. All are Jews.
February 1st, 2009 at 12:57 amDru P. Says:
ElBruce Says:
In no way do the actions of a nation which lays claim to a specific heritage invalidate the heritage itself or its history of achievement and suffering.
That is true, I would agree with that.
That is one of the biggest points I try to communicate to fellow atheist/agnostics when they adopt harshly undiplomatic language toward people of faith.
What’s the connection?
I am atheist and I will tell you that my biggest problem with people of faith is when they try to tell me that I will go to Hell because I don’t believe in God, or because I don’t adopt the same code of conduct as they. In fact, my understanding was that Religion was supposed to be a personal choice, not something mandatory, to be forced upon people who choose not to believe it. (Yes, I oppose prayer in public school.)
When I hear people attack me for my atheism, I usually fight back hard with it. I simply do not believe that we are here because of the actions of beings known as deities. As far as people of faith should be concerned, that should be my problem, not theirs.
Not that I am accusing you of attacking me or any other non-believers.
February 1st, 2009 at 12:57 amI am atheist and I will tell you that my biggest problem with people of faith is when they try to tell me that I will go to Hell because I don’t believe in God.
Do you believe in hell? No? I don’t let strangers saying things that I don’t believe bother me. Family can be difficult, but my parents were always flexible people, despite being deeply religious.
(Yes, I oppose prayer in public school.)
Me too, it’s a violation of the 1st amendment.
When I hear people attack me for my atheism, I usually fight back hard with it.
February 1st, 2009 at 1:08 amI don’t have to fight people. I state my position, where we cannot agree. We agree to disagree. I spend more time building bridges on things we agree on (humanitarianism, humility, golden rule… etc).
suzysmom Says:
The Hamas charter of 1988 calls for the destruction of Israel.
If that charter called for the destruction of the US, and Hamas fired rockets on the US, would you be supportive of the US bombing Hamas?
No. I would be supportive of treating it like a crime and having them arrested, tried, and hopefully convicted and sent to jail (like the first WTC bombers were.) I would not view it as justification for killing innocent women and children. The disproportionate response in gaza was immoral, and they know it. That’s why they made sure to end it during our previous president’s term, since he was just as immoral as they.
February 1st, 2009 at 1:12 amBesides, suzysmom, lots of groups call for the destruction of the US. I just don’t wet my pants over it like you do. I worry more about what the Republican Party might do to America than I am of what foreign terrorists might do. But I don’t expect you to understand why I say that, though I am willing to bet you’ll have some pejorative in mind for me.
February 1st, 2009 at 1:14 amsuzysmom Says:
The Hamas charter of 1988 calls for the destruction of Israel.
Half of Gaza’s population was born after 1992, as if they care about what Hamas said before they were born. They just want some food and a future where they are afforded the same respect and opportunity as their Israeli brothers
If that charter called for the destruction of the US, and Hamas fired rockets on the US, would you be supportive of the US bombing Hamas?
We covered this already. Again, Again, Hamas raining death on Zooeys house in Idaho? Put the pill down.
February 1st, 2009 at 1:15 am#154 – The Hamas charter of 1988 calls for the destruction of Israel. If that charter called for the destruction of the US, and Hamas fired rockets on the US, would you be supportive of the US bombing Hamas?
It sounds as though suzysmom agrees with the European/Jewish/Zionist goal of terrorizing and murdering the entire Christian and Muslim population of Palestine until they are completely driven from the Holy Lands that they have inhabited for the past 3,000 to 4,000 years.
February 1st, 2009 at 1:22 amsuzysmom Says:
you just dont get that they want to kill all of israel, you just dont get it.
You don’t get the fact that they cant…
i guess its because the US gives money to Israel. Its too had that Israel does need our money and that they cant rely on contributions from private citizens to help finance their cause.
You are right. Israel would be a nothing without US aid.
How many of your students will drop out of school because they couldn’t acquire few thousand $ in grant/ scholarships and subsequently spend their life in poverty because Israel ‘need’ more cluster bombs?
so what if they were born after the charter. You sound like an idiot saying that. so what if americans were born 200 plust years after the declaration of independence.
Unlike Palestine, the United States provides avenues for its citizens that make martyrdom highly unappealing. That was my point.
Tell me why do you HATE THE US SO MUCH??
I don’t think that phrase means what you ‘think’ it means.
February 1st, 2009 at 1:40 amsuzysmom Says:
and if your wife was killed, or your kid, would you still keep saying this liberal answere.
I doubt it.
Probably not, but I’d like to think I’d be able to keep my values intact. It’d the the Christian thing to do, ya know.
There are lots of family victims of violence who speak out against the kinds of bigoted revenge thinking that you espouse.
.
suzysmom Says:
you just dont get that they want to kill all of israel, you just dont get it.
Which “they?” Which specific people are you talking about, and how do you know what’s in their heads? I don’t get it.
.
suzysmom Says:
i guess its because the US gives money to Israel.
Its too had that Israel does need our money and that they cant rely on contributions from private citizens to help finance their cause.
I give lots of money to them as it is , i wish i could give more.
The cause of slaughtering all Palestinians because a few of them commit crimes? You shouldn’t help finance slaughter. That’s bad. The U.S. should make its military financing contingent on ethical behavior by Israel as well.
.
suzysmom Says:
Tell me why do you HATE THE US SO MUCH??
You are a crazy lady.
.
suzysmom Says:
to all of you
I think some of you are liberals and the rest of you are rightwing nazi skinheads posing as liberals
You think a lot of very interesting things. I really don’t care.
.
suzysmom Says:
hey wayne:
Jodete y aprieta el culo! (
Wow, you’ve totally got a mad-on for Wayne, huh? Stalk much?
February 1st, 2009 at 1:47 amsuzysmom Says:
hey wayne:
Jodete y aprieta el culo! (
*puts troll Kerry mask on*
ENGLISH ONLY!!!
Tell me why do you HATE THE US SO MUCH???
February 1st, 2009 at 1:49 am*Takes troll Kerry mask off*
here she is again.
hi mrs. kook
time to put the wine box back out on the porch til tomorrow.
g’night mrs. kook.
February 1st, 2009 at 2:13 amsuzy – how come all sarah palin’s kids drop out of school?
and get knocked up
and drink
and do drugs?
g’night, mrs. kook.
February 1st, 2009 at 2:14 amSpeaking of juvenile behavior… the crazy lady is starting to sound more and more like an angry nine year old.
February 1st, 2009 at 2:18 amDear Suzy,
Why does your mom think that mass killings are a good thing? If your next door neighbor threw a rock through your front window, would your mom advocate torching the neighbors house in the middle of the night while they sleep in their beds? Would it be OK because she rang the door bell before she threw the Molotov cocktail through their front window? Is everyone in your household blind by the matriarchal policy of an eye for an eye?
I mean, your mom is correct in feeling like retribution is a good thing, however be warned, vigilante justice is not about justice but instead, getting even OR worse! Now Suzy, please understand, we are not Nazi skinheads or antisemitism or the like. None of us think indiscriminate bombing and shelling from either side is a good thing. And yes, Hamas radicals are like a gnat, but a gnat they are. If that gnat were to land on your cheek, would you prefer that I punch your teeth out just to kill the gnat? How about a good firm welting slap?
Please Suzy, for the sake of your children’s future, loose the radical mom. She spells trouble.
.
February 1st, 2009 at 2:19 ami fear suzy is locked in a closet in the suburbs somewhere.
February 1st, 2009 at 2:20 amI am actually still chuckling over the phrase “illegal Mexicans…”
February 1st, 2009 at 2:21 amDear suzysmom,
Why do you think you’re welcome here?
I mean, a geologist should know the difference between a rock and a hard space, NO? Then what does it make when a geologist insists on being in that space…
… besides being ignorantly stupid?
OK suzysmom, you never answered my question: If the bank is being robbed, why not go in guns blazing, damned be it all? Now, what if suzy were the teller?
.
February 1st, 2009 at 2:23 amwell, they are!!
February 1st, 2009 at 2:25 amsuzysmom Says:
dru p
stop living off your parents and get a job.
i didnt realize think progress was a site for juvenile whiny brats who live off their republican hard working parents.*Takes troll Kerry mask off*
Projection.
they are more likely to be unable to get grants/scholarships because loans are unavailble due to ACORN and WELFARE AND MEDICAID FUNDING TO ILLEGAL MEXICANS LIKE YOU
saw your art and it sucks big time
February 1st, 2009 at 2:26 amI saw his site too, unimpressive. But I am not he. You are clearly a bigot though. If liberals drop dead, who will subsidize all of you red staters?
Thanks to suzysmom, for proving just how much of a f uckwit she really is.
Professor of geology in the midwest — so is my ass. Liar.
February 1st, 2009 at 2:29 amZooey Says:
Professor of geology in the midwest — so is my ass. Liar.
Agreed. The one time I let a con slide on their professional claims and she ends up being waaay to stupid and crazy to teach at any university or community college I’ve ever heard of.
…unless it’s one of those non-accredited Christian colleges where they hand out divinity degrees like candy, like Oral Roberts University. She’s got about the right mindset to teach “geology” there.
February 1st, 2009 at 2:51 amElBruce Says:
…unless it’s one of those non-accredited Christian colleges where they hand out divinity degrees like candy, like Oral Roberts University. She’s got about the right mindset to teach “geology” there.
—
Found it.
February 1st, 2009 at 2:58 amsuzysmom Says:
hey wayne:
Jodete y aprieta el culo! (
February 1st, 2009 at 1:28 am
I’m sorry. I don’t speak crazy. Care to translate that into English, for the benefit of us poorly public school-educated morons, you hate-filled, bold, fresh piece of humanity?
February 1st, 2009 at 3:13 amJodete y aprieta el culo! (
Wait. Shouldn’t that be the other way around?
February 1st, 2009 at 3:31 amAprieta y jodete el culo a tu, tambien.
Poor Suzy, her mom is a f***ing retard..
February 1st, 2009 at 3:54 amAnd you sound like an unhinged wingnut that has to spam the forum to TRY to make a point. Blow me.
February 1st, 2009 at 4:37 amSo what do you do when your geology students try to tell you the Earth is older than 6,000 years old? *snicker*
Did God place those strata and rock layers to test us? hahahahaha see you in the funny pages bimbo.
February 1st, 2009 at 4:41 amAs an experiment, I have personally read everything the Heritage Foundation ever wrote.
I sped-read it, OK?
According to every single one of the thousands of “studies” funded by the august Heritage Foundation, the Right is right about everything..
What stunning results. Ain’t science wonderful?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuWnw4Hkf1A&f
February 1st, 2009 at 8:28 amsuzysmom Says:
The Hamas charter of 1988 calls for the destruction of Israel.
If that charter called for the destruction of the US, and Hamas fired rockets on the US, would you be supportive of the US bombing Hamas?
February 1st, 2009 at 1:00 am
____________
So?
The leaders of Hamas have REPEATEDLY stated that they are willing to recognize Israel and remove this call for its destruction if Israel were to remove their settlers and remain within their pre-1967 borders.
Why all this focus on Hamas’ charter anyhow? It certainly didn’t deter Israel from supporting the organization in order to undermine the PLO.
February 1st, 2009 at 8:32 amsuzysmom Says:
Dont you koolaid drinkers realize that the MSM is dishonest and biased in their coverage?
February 1st, 2009 at 4:09 am
_____________
Oh, yes. We’re well aware of the blatant corporate/conservative bias in the mainstream media, even the so-called “liberal” media like the New York Times and MSNBC and NPR. That’s why we prefer to get our news from independent sources like Democracy Now and The Nation.
February 1st, 2009 at 8:35 amSuzymom:
Please stop accusing people who criticzes Israel’s behavior as racists and ‘Anti-Semite’.
This is for your information:
Not all Semites are Jews,and not all Jews are Semites.
Palestinians and other peoples in the Middle East who never left their ancestors lands for over 3000 years are the original Semites.
February 1st, 2009 at 8:52 amSince you claim to be a professor,and also have a computer..try to search this on your computer for facts before accusing others of being Anti Semite and implying that they are racists.
suzysmom,
I have news for you. The Heritage Foundation was created for one, and only one, purpose – to help spread conservative ideology. It is not an unbiased, “scholarly” organization, despite its attempts to portray itself as such. It was created for the purpose of writing papers that support the conservative ideology, and providing commentators who carry a veneer of academic respectablility. (This is both ironic and hypocritical, because conservatives like to denounce academics and those who are curious about the world around them.) They are not unbiased, and anything they produce must be viewed through the conservative prism in which it was created, and for which it is being used.
Try again if you want us to see unbiased information.
Have to found someone less crazy to take care of suzy for you?
February 1st, 2009 at 11:00 amThank you, tarazan. I hate when Israel-lovers call me an anti-Semite just because I tell the truth about the government of Israel, something they seem to be unwilling to admit to themselves.
February 1st, 2009 at 11:02 amlooks like I missed out on the truely bizarre
February 1st, 2009 at 11:07 amSuzymom:
Well, I’m kinda glad she came here to show the world the true face of the right wing. It was gloriously accurate with it’s namecalling and irrational “listen to me” attitude in the wake of total failure.
She has shown us the direction the gop is headed. They have all adopted this defensive position and will destroy themselves.
thanks Suzymom
February 1st, 2009 at 12:06 pmsuzysmom Says:
To all YOU morons BITE ME.
February 1st, 2009 at 12:25 pmI wanna met suzysmom.
February 1st, 2009 at 12:31 pmsuzysmom Says:
Its you liberals who twist facts.
why dont you try being openminded and read the real story here at a trust worthy non MSM liberal site:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It is you rightwing morons who wouldnt know a fact if it kicked down your door sat at your table and ate your cornflakes you ignorant toad. I have read several books on this issue written by JEWS. So stuff your condescension fool. I certainly know more about this than a brainwashed fool like you is ever likely to. Why dont YOU try to be openminded and think for a second that there is blood in the world that means just as much as Jewish blood. That the Palestinians are not a bunch of demons who deserve to be oppressed and slaughtered that perhaps your brainwashed delusions do not represent reality. A huge majority of Israelis SUPPORT trading the land for lasting peace. This is the position of the leader of Hamas and has been for a long time. Try to keep up moron. The Taba talks were within sight of an agreement when the Israeli Prime Minister Olmert jerked the Israeli reps out of the talks. You are an ignorant brainwashed moron and you show it with your posts
February 1st, 2009 at 12:32 pmHey SuziesSTUPIDmom. The Palestinians are every BIT as Semitic as are Jews you worthless moron. Do you have even the SLIGHTEST idea what you are talking about? My wife is a Jew and you are embarassing her with your stupidity. Grow up
February 1st, 2009 at 12:34 pmThe two state solution is not only the only real answer left, it has been the international consensus since the 70’s. It has been endorsed by the old PLO and virtually every Palestinian group and has the support of about 70% of Palestinians according to polls. No question it will be hard and no question it will be subject to attempts at derailing from terrorists extremists on both sides. Anyone remember Baruch Goldstien? One of the most astonishing facets of this subject is there is a MUCH larger discussion on this and a much larger movement for Palestinian rights and peace with justice IN ISRAEL than in the US. Here the Likudnic frame is just accepted outright. I find it amazing. Fools like Suzyhomemoron get hysterical at even the mention that Palestinians are humans too and deserve human rights. Makes you wonder what happened to their brains and hearts.
February 1st, 2009 at 12:40 pmA threat is all it will be now. bush is gone and support for their murderous assult on civilians will not be tolerated.
February 1st, 2009 at 1:20 pmIf the Israelis don’t do their part toward a settlement then the U.S. should tell them they’re on their own. It is counter-productive and against this country’s best interests to support Israel under these circumstances.
February 1st, 2009 at 1:41 pmBottom line is if the US didn’t supply the weapons Israel wouldn’t be attacking anyone, we are responsible for everything they do. And guilty for whatever crimes they are committing, like bombing UN facilities. We need to tell our reps. to knock it the @#$% OFF make our colony listen to us.
February 1st, 2009 at 9:24 pmKid Charlemagne wrote: “That figures, the Zionists will always be stealing land.”
With anti-semitic and hateful statements like this, you do not help the democratic party. Such junk is unwelcome in a party with as big and as inclusive a tent as the democratic party. If you want to say hateful things, go over to the GOP, please…
February 2nd, 2009 at 11:04 amI agree with Eugene Debs that a two state solution is the only solution.
But when the palestinians constantly chant “from the river to the sea, all of Palestine be free”, it doesn’t help, for the palestinians are saying that they want ALL of the land that is Israel.
Think about it.
February 2nd, 2009 at 11:06 amno force :(
February 3rd, 2009 at 6:15 pm