McCain Claims FDR ‘Exacerbated The Great Depression,’ Calls For Counterproductive Balanced Budget Provisions
McCain Claims FDR ‘Exacerbated The Great Depression,’ Calls For Counterproductive Balanced Budget Provisions
Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), a top Senate critic of President Obama’s economic recovery plan, has been complaining that the package “has no provisions to put us on the path of a balanced budget.” McCain is pushing an alternative plan that he says would achieve this by enacting automatic spending cuts after the U.S. again experiences “positive economic growth.”
Appearing on Hugh Hewitt’s radio show last night, McCain repeated his complaint that Obama’s stimulus plan wasn’t “putting us on a path to a balanced budget.” Later in the interview, he also argued that President Franklin Delano Roosevelt’s policies “exacerbated the Great Depression“:
MCCAIN: The job of the presidency, in my view, is to give people hope, give people hope. Whether you happen to have liked Franklin Delano Roosevelt’s policies, and there’s a number of them I still think exacerbated the Great Depression, but he gave the fireside chats, and gave people hope and optimism for the future. I think that’s, there’s no problem that America can’t prevail over, because we’re still the greatest nation in the world.
Listen here:
It’s not surprising that McCain is pushing the false idea that Roosevelt’s New Deal worsened the Great Depression, which is a common conservative trope. It’s ironic, however, that he is coupling it with a call for including a balanced budget provision in the recovery package.
As Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman pointed out in November, Roosevelt’s programs were working well until “he was persuaded to balance the budget” in 1937, so “he raised taxes and cut spending and the economy went back down again.” Watch it:
Dean Baker, co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy Research, points out that “Roosevelt’s New Deal Agenda lowered the unemployment rate from 25 percent in 1933 to 10 percent in 1937,” but that the “economy turned bad again” when the “Blue Dogs of the Roosevelt era won sway and got Roosevelt to cut spending and raise taxes.” “This threw the economy back into a serious recession, just as any good Keynesian would have predicted,” writes Baker.
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Perhaps McShrub should consult with (not) Joe the (not) plumber to make sure he’s got the straight scoop on this.
February 5th, 2009 at 1:49 pmI get it, now they are a minority they think a balanced budget is a good thing. Only one question, clowns…8 years ago we were into budget surplus. I’d say that was better than balanced.
You guys pissed it away and NOW you want to whine about it?
February 5th, 2009 at 1:50 pmAh yes… the new Right Wing meme… 70 years after the fact.
Once more time, righties. You’re entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. And your opinions aren’t FACTS.
February 5th, 2009 at 1:51 pmIn summary:
FDR would’ve done just fine if not better had he not had a pack of GOP ankle-biters f’ing with him thoe whole time.
John McCain is a stubby ankle-biter. Who lost. Big time.
Leave the President’s ankles alone, Mr. McMaverick.
February 5th, 2009 at 1:51 pmMcCrazy will do anything to avoid stepping down from his campaign. For example, he renamed his senate office — U.S. Presinator from Arizona.
February 5th, 2009 at 1:52 pmThe Republic of Stupidity Says:
Ah yes… the new Right Wing meme… 70 years after the fact.
They’ll repeat it over and over and the Media will regurgitate it without any analysis and pretty soon it will be “true.”
“Everyone knows” that the New Deal made the Depression worse!
February 5th, 2009 at 1:52 pmMCCAIN: The job of the presidency, in my view, is to give people hope, give people hope. Whether you happen to have liked Franklin Delano Roosevelt’s policies, and there’s a number of them I still think exacerbated the Great Depression, but he gave the fireside chats, and gave people hope and optimism for the future. I think that’s, there’s no problem that America can’t prevail over, because we’re still the greatest nation in the world.
This why you & Gov. “I Can See Russia” lost. In my view, you have no substance in your message, just wing nut talking points!
February 5th, 2009 at 1:53 pmLet’s see, shrubie borrowed money to run a war, cut taxes for the rich and the economy tanked and he had a surplus when he took office.
February 5th, 2009 at 1:54 pmDoes not appear that the cut taxes and balance the budget plan proposed by the GOP works very well.
Little wienies got America into this mess and now they want to (1) blame it on Obama (2) stick to the same BS (3)still do not care about the American people.
Well johnny, at least you didn’t get installed as president.
February 5th, 2009 at 1:54 pmThe GOP is now the COP, Corporate Owned Party, or
the CIP, Corporate Interest Party.
The republicants can only dream of a balance budget because they can’t achieve it. Clinton, a demlib, achieved a balanced budget and an economy that worked for just about everybody.
February 5th, 2009 at 1:55 pmWhen is McCain scheduled to retire?
February 5th, 2009 at 1:55 pmWell, reagan created the current onsetting depression and the Greedy Old Party seems dead set on exacerbating the demise of the USA.
February 5th, 2009 at 1:59 pmSo, “What now?” really.
Just one idea.
Enough with the Repu’ublicist trope-a-dope BS.
February 5th, 2009 at 2:00 pmMCCAIN: The job of the presidency, in my view, is to give people hope, give people hope.
Campaign’s over johnny. The loser doesn’t read the job description to the winner.
February 5th, 2009 at 2:01 pmThe republicans know as much about the economy as the Jamicans know about hockey. Enough said.
February 5th, 2009 at 2:01 pmMaybe McLame could ask Joe the f ucking Plumber to edumacate us on all the pesky details of advance economics. You know like actually having a plumbers license or not owing back taxes on your non-existant plumbing business. Or your non-existant ‘war correspondent’ business.
Seems the GOP is not thinking too clearly these days.
February 5th, 2009 at 2:02 pm“but he gave the fireside chats, and gave people hope and optimism for the future. I think that’s, there’s no problem that America can’t prevail over, because we’re still the greatest nation in the world.”
Gee, it seems President Obama is sort of doing this except he has to keep kicking at his ankles because weenies like you like to talk the talk but can’t walk…period.
You lost, John. Whining like this just maks people believe the Alzheimer’s attack that hit you about Caribou Barbie is permanent.
February 5th, 2009 at 2:03 pmI, for one, will be very glad when his recent loss in the 2008 election catches up with mcshameless and kills him.
Mark my words, within 18-24 months, they’ll be wheeling his drooling and muttering carcass into the hospital where at least *we* won’t have to be inflicted with these kind of party-programmed dole-esque brain farts that are only intended to distract the sheep in the republic party and whip them into pitch-fork wielding frenzy against “that one” in the White House.
Why doesn’t the republic party run the candidate they *really* want for public office: fat lumpball. Get him out from behind his microphone and put him on the road defending his asinine beliefs in front of the whole country.
Then we’ll see who’s really center-right.
February 5th, 2009 at 2:03 pm…Seventy years…my math was off
February 5th, 2009 at 2:03 pmIsn’t it just amazing — sixty years after the New Deal, NOW repugniscum declare that it was a failure and FDR actually worsened it.
February 5th, 2009 at 2:04 pmThey never stop rewriting history when it doesn’t work to their favor.
gummitch Says:
They’ll repeat it over and over and the Media will regurgitate it…
___________
Hmmm… doesn’t ‘regurgitate’ mean the same as PUKE????
February 5th, 2009 at 2:05 pmNobody knows the office of the president better than John McCain. That’s why he nominated a loon from a remote Alaska town to stand in for the president.
February 5th, 2009 at 2:06 pmNoLies #15: true — but that Jamaican bobsled team, now there was a real dynasty!
February 5th, 2009 at 2:06 pmI get discouraged, these days, when I hear Republicans like McCain expressing gratuitous opinions. They don’t seem to be able to learn. Now, faced with mounting deficits of their own making, they’ve finally discovered fiscal conservatism and are obstructing for lack of any idea. It’s more of the same, empty word. When will they Republican Congress learn that we are not playing a football game (if you win I lose and vice versa) but we are in the real world?
February 5th, 2009 at 2:06 pmMarie Says:
…Seventy years…my math was off
__________
Not only that, but you can also travel in time… cool.
February 5th, 2009 at 2:06 pmSounds to me like Grampy McSame has slipped off his meds again. Maybe Cindy or one of his other nurses needs to keep whispering in his ear “Psst — John…you lost“…
February 5th, 2009 at 2:06 pmDuring the campaign, McCain stated that he didn’t know as much about economics as he should. He was right then, and he’s right now.
So McCain, STFU! And when you’re done with that, STFU again.
PEACE
February 5th, 2009 at 2:07 pmIf the Retuglican Party keeps this up then they can expect that as bad as 2008 was for them, 2010 will be even worse and they will retreat further into irrelevancy.
February 5th, 2009 at 2:08 pmUnfortunatly, we can’t wait that long. Obama has got to take the bull by the horns and get the Stimulus Package in the pipeline now. Isolate and marginalize the Rethugs now. They don’t give a damm about the American People.
Why does the GOP hate the Middle Class?
Jim Wolf359 Says: Why does the GOP hate the Middle Class?
Because Mr Rourke tells them so.
February 5th, 2009 at 2:11 pmRepublicans win when America loses. Republicans cannot govern, they can only obstruct. They have no ideas so they wait for you to come up with one so they can shoot it down. Its like the loudmouth we all know of – he knows everything, but when pressed actually knows very little. America deserves better than the GOP.
February 5th, 2009 at 2:11 pmSo how was that honorary dinner party working out for you Mr. President?
Did you really think that you could convince Repugnants to come together to work for the good of the country?
Not gonna happen. Repugnants want you to fail and if that means that we sink into a Depression, they are ok with that.
Fck them raw.
February 5th, 2009 at 2:12 pmWhere is ” attack dog ” Biden?
February 5th, 2009 at 2:13 pm“The issue of economics is something that I’ve really never understood as well as I should. I understand the basics, the fundamentals, the vision, all that kind of stuff”
-John McCain
“Our economy, I think, still the fundamentals of our economy are strong.”
-John McCain (same day as the rosh hashanah massacre)
Ummm…Is there a John McCain I don’t know about that is supposed to be some sort of financial genius that we should be paying attention to?
February 5th, 2009 at 2:14 pmBig fan of FDR here. I have heard this talking point and it is nonsense. My grandfather who worked for the WPA to feed his family is turning over in his grave right now at these dweebs slamming his hero.
Thank God, McCain did not win!
February 5th, 2009 at 2:14 pmspencers mom Says:
During the campaign, McCain stated that he didn’t know as much about economics as he should. He was right then, and he’s right now.
____________
Well, then, he should clearly listen to qualified experts, like Joe the Non-Plumber-C&W Singer-Writer-War Correspondent-Economist.
Talk about hyphens… SNARK!!!
February 5th, 2009 at 2:15 pmYa really gotta wonder why the people elected the fool FDR 4 times – and likely would have elected him more if he hadn’t died.
BTW – simple rebuttal of the repub arguments – go to yahoo.com and click on finance. You can get a graph of any individual stock or any of the major markets, going back as long as there is data.
February 5th, 2009 at 2:18 pmHow about this as a stimulus?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jon-chattman/forgiving-student-loan-de_b_164103.html#postComment
February 5th, 2009 at 2:19 pm37 kbartoy
It seems to me that improving access to education is a great way to build our national “brain infrastructure” which could continue to pay out over not only the life of the individual but also in future generations (by making them grow up in families that value education).
Otherwise, a lot of countries are surpassing us in education.
February 5th, 2009 at 2:22 pmMy Parents are depression babies who still consider FDR the greatest President in their lifetimes. I’m old enough to remember studying his Presidency when I was in High School…back when History, Civics, and Government were required subjects in School. A time when you actually learned about your Country’s History and the impact that people like FDR had on the Country.
February 5th, 2009 at 2:24 pmReally McCain, are you that bitter? The budget is not going to be balanced for quite sometime, let’s be real.
February 5th, 2009 at 2:27 pmMaybe McCain will feel better if he went back on his bus and did those town hall meetings he never got to do. Screw your stupid tax cuts. Is there anything else they can come up with? At some point they almost have to be emabarrassed, they have to know tax cuts will not work, esp right now!!!!!!!
Where are the historians, economists (other than Krugman) and presidential experts pushing back on the right wing nuts and MSM on allowing this propagate? Fine to say that the GOP wants to go a different direction. But they are either blatantly rewriting history here or are that ignorant that they do not know better.
Or, even scarier is #3: They get their history lessons from Limbaugh & Hannity!
February 5th, 2009 at 2:32 pmAnd, John, I think the purpose of the election of a President is to determine whose voice should be the one heard and followed in offering both the hope and the policies.
In case you have forgotten, that wasn’t you.
February 5th, 2009 at 2:34 pmDoes this clown even remember where his Senate office is anymore?
February 5th, 2009 at 2:45 pmJohnny Warmonger likes him some attention; that’s all this is…
Maybe McSame should call a halt to his reign in the Senate and go back to school to get some facts straight. He is revising history which is all the reichwing can do because they are always wrong. They have to lie because their way doesn’t work, never did, and never will. You lost McSame, accept it.
February 5th, 2009 at 2:47 pmis it just me or have republicans basically become holocaust deniers?
global climate change? nope!
February 5th, 2009 at 2:50 pmevolution? nope!
and now this total bu11sh1t, easily refuted HUGE lie that they’re all pushing.
your ignorance of history and facts is frightening
February 5th, 2009 at 2:55 pmAll right, you’ve got idiots like McCain espousing “facts” to idiots that don’t know any better (republican base) on right wing dominated airwaves and television. This country is so screwed.
February 5th, 2009 at 2:57 pmWhen is Obama going to grow a pair and tell these bastards to F*O*.
.
Who listens to McLooser?
.
February 5th, 2009 at 3:06 pmThe Problem as I see it besides what Rich H. just pointed out is that the MSM seems to be making a concerted effort to make sure that the effort to pass the Stimulis fails. they do this by booking mostly Rethugs on their shows to push the Talking Points that Obama can’t do this, its the wrong kind of stimulis, we need more(all of it) tax cuts, ad nauseum. This is seen not just by the base but by people who were on the fence during the election about Obama for myraid reasons.
February 5th, 2009 at 3:06 pmThere are alot of those people out there in TV Land and thats what Obama and Progressives have to counter. Obama also needs to send the message that the time for talk is over and that the Bill needs to be passed. I think he started doing that today but he needs to keep hammering that message home.
And I think the Senate Dem. leadership needs to collectivly grow a set ( Reid, are you listening)and remember who’s coattais they road to the majority that they now hold and should be using.
Apparently John McCain is getting all of his information from the great American hero, economist, and reporter SamJoe What’sHisName.
February 5th, 2009 at 3:25 pmIf an Obama administration proves to begin the process of digging out of the mess the obstructionist party left us, they are toast and know it.
February 5th, 2009 at 3:49 pmWe need to move the Supreme Court up to 13 judges and pack it and pass FDR’s after tax max plan.
February 5th, 2009 at 4:00 pmJim Wolf #39 ; I remember my civics classes as well.
A subject which seems to be neglected nowdays. I suppose
we’ll now have to change all the school history textbooks
to conform with the right wingers version.
The depression didn’t end until after Pearl Harbor.
I guess we all owe the Japanese a debt of gratitude.
February 5th, 2009 at 4:02 pmIt seems that historically the only thing conservatives have to justify their positions is to do a re-write of history. See: Ann Coulter defending Joe McCarthy. See: upon Nixon’s death all of them coming out to declare that “he really wasn’t such a bad guy.” See: now, all of them claiming that the New Deal was one of the worst plans ever. Also see: Bush upon departure, “a hundred years from now you’ll see…I’m great!” It just makes you want to bang your head against a wall.
February 5th, 2009 at 4:08 pmWWJtPD?????
February 5th, 2009 at 4:14 pmThese people who (claim to) believe that there is no such thing as a market failure.
A great many of them also believe that Earth is 6,000 years old and that humans and dinosaurs lived side-by-side.
Why does anyone listen to anything they have to say?
February 5th, 2009 at 4:18 pmUh oh. Maybe this is better:
WWJtNPC&WSWWCED???
February 5th, 2009 at 4:20 pmI just thank the fates every day that that man is not President.
February 5th, 2009 at 4:45 pmOld Johnny McInsane is still babbling away… Does he think that he is still running for President? Funny, years and years of Republican rule in America always seems to lead to recessions and depressions… Funny…
February 5th, 2009 at 4:58 pmI’m getting very tired of John I-don’t-know-much-about-the-economy McCain criticizing others for their economic plans. He admitted he is useless in this category, so why doesn’t he just shut up about it?
February 5th, 2009 at 6:30 pmHey GOPUNKNY
Your ignorance is the disease. It is the disease that has corrupted America long enough. That is why you have been WIPED the last two elections. Your stupid is no longer in fashion. The GOP is infected with a virulent strain of ignorance and stupidity and you are obviously a carrier. Do the world a favor and give yourself a vascectomy. Your ignorance, and stupidity is a virus our genepool doesnt need. You are ignorant. You are a punk. YOu are stupid on a galactic level. You are so ignorant you dont even recognize higher brain function and decency. You are a moron and that is pretty much your best character trait. YOu have proven how stupid you are and what a fool you are so go sit in the corner with a nice steaming hot cup of STFU
February 5th, 2009 at 7:24 pmThere has been a Republican in the White House 28 of the last 40 years compared to 12 for Democrats, and Bill Clinton’s economic policies looked alot like neo-con republicans. That leaves Jimmy Carter’s 4 years the only period in the last 40 years for somewhat progressive liberal economic policies. And he had an oil embargo to contend with and not much support in congress. Imagine what would happen to America today if we were facing another oil embargo. In addition, the Republicans have been the majority party in congress for 12 of the last 14 years, have filibustered and vetoed more in the last two years than any congress or president in our history. Republicans – you own the current economic crisis. Have the balls and integrity to admit it. As far as whether the New Deal or the war brought us out of the Great Depression: I’m just a dumb South Georgia cracker, but wasn’t the war a big government spending program? Maybe it was a tax cut for big business and the wealthy – I don’t know, I get so confused listening to you slick talkin’ corporate dudes.
February 5th, 2009 at 8:00 pmI wish you liberal progressive people would quite calling the corporate neo-con republicans stupid. They’ve been extremely successful in accomplishing their goals. The rich have gotten richer, the middle class and working poor have gotten poorer. They have taken the wealthiest nation in human history and sucked it dry. They have emasculated the American government, paving the way for the New Corporate World Order. And they’ve done it in a democracy with the support of the majority of the American people. That’s pretty smart, if you ask me. If you continue to underestimate them by thinking they’re stupid, they’ll out-smart you in the next chapter of American history.
February 5th, 2009 at 8:16 pmCrackercrat Says:
You are absolutly right. They are not stupid. The rightwing trolls that surf by this site however are very VERY stupid.
February 5th, 2009 at 8:33 pm#67
February 6th, 2009 at 12:00 amWow. Just Wow. Should not kids be asleep by now?
http://fee.org/library/books/great-myths-of-the-great-depression/
http://www.google.com/search?q=great+depression+site%3Amises.org&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
Or anything else from Mises.org on the current or Great Depressions, for that matter.
For more on Ms. Shlaes’ conception of the Depression economic situation: http://mediamatters.org/rd?to=http%3A%2F%2Fsec.online.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB122792327402265913.html
I know it is difficult to grapple with the possibility that Keynesian economics might have faults and that FDR’s policies (and Hoover before him) might have resulted in some serious economic catastrophes (even in the face of FDR’s charismatic successes, but there is a lot of information out there to support the notion. Even now, it is impossible for us to know whether a lack of government intervention (including a reduction in protectionism and other anti-capitalist measures by the govt) would have alleviated the Great Depression. What we do know, however, is that recessions had occurred repeatedly before and rarely lasted more than a year and were never as bad as they became under Hoover and Roosevelt.
It is clearly evident that the Federal Reserve’s monetary policy will continue to be a driving force behind America’s boom-bust cycles. It precipitated the Great Depression and it precipitated our current crisis.
In the mean time, can’t we all consider the lamentable fact that nobody currently reading this or any forum on the Internet will ever see an America that doesn’t owe a significant amount of debt? How ridiculous is that? Our government — and its citizenry by extension — is no better than a common louse that has run up so much debt via credit cards that it’ll never be able to pay it off in its lifetime.
February 6th, 2009 at 1:07 amgopny Says:
Dear Diseased Liberals:
This is a documented quote
“We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work. I want to see this country prosperous. I want to see people get a job. I want to see people get enough to eat. We have never made good on our promises … After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started. … And an enormous debt to boot!” — Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt’s Treasury secretary, on the failure of New Deal economic-”stimulus” policies, 1941.
Hey gopny, Maybe Morgenthau was an idiot, and maybe McSame doesn’t know what the hell he’s talking about. Unemployment in 1933, the year FDR took office, stood at 24.9 percent, the worst unemployment numbers of the entire Great Depression. In 1941 unemployment stood at 9.9 percent.The economy grew an average 5.2 percent under FDR’s leadership, even including the 1937-38 falloff, when he backed off of his spending program because of political opposition. Funny, gopny how wingers, so certain that Keynesian spending will fail and ruin the politician who attempts it, rather than gleefully giving Obama all the rope he wants to hang himself, are doing and saying ANYTHING and EVERYTHING they can to prevent his programs from going forward. Why is that, gopny?
February 6th, 2009 at 2:49 amyou dims own this shitulus bill. i hope the economy tanks in the next 2 years
The republican economic trough we’re currently in, just might take that long to climb out of. No thanks to your america hating, party of closeted freaks.
February 6th, 2009 at 8:05 amgopny Says:
marlow,
the unemplyment rate in 1940 was over 17%
get your facts straight.
you dims own this shitulus bill. i hope the economy tanks in the next 2 years
February 6th, 2009 at 7:38 am Add Karma Recommend (0) | Report Abuse
I figured I’d hear something like this from your little pig brain. Unemployment in 1941, when Morgenthau wrote his missive was 9.9 percent. The new Deal worked, and saved the pathetic asses of mealy-mouthed F-wads such as yourself. Yeah, A-hole, we OWN the “shitulus” bill, as you call it. When did you start hating America, little ‘tard? You scumbags handed over a Trillion dollar deficit, so the economy may very well tank.. No surprise there. You idiots tanked it eighty years ago as well, and it took a decade to climb out. Typical wingnut puke- shit on the carpet, blame it on the dog.
February 6th, 2009 at 10:30 amMarlow says:
It’s very possible he was an idiot, though a difficult to assess claim and one which undercuts one’s support for FDR and his ability to make reasonable decisions. Indeed, it is Morgenthau who chronicles the highly suspicious decision by FDR to at one point raise the official governmental gold/dollar exchange rate by 21 because it sounds lucky. Such decisions are not the sort of cautious analysis which is generally required to cause a sea-change in an economic downturn (if, indeed, it can be forced by a governmental entity at all).
For my own part, I continue to boggle at how so many people can think that continuing to print imaginary money (the Federal Reserve’s source base has spiked over the past six months to levels not seen before) and running an impossible-to-pay deficit will be good for us in the long run. Our nation’s credit rating has been dropped once already in the past couple of years. We run the risk of a mass decoupling from the dollar as the primary currency of the world. Given that our currency is backed entirely by faith of our government’s ability to pay its debts, we’re running the risk of destroying our own currency with further demonstrations of our unwillingness to pay attention to debts. It is self-evident that if a government pumps mass sums of ‘capital’ (ie tax payer money) into an economy that GDP, etc. will turn around. But once you’ve had a mass infusion of capital from the government as though it were private industry, you have to factor in the debts of the government and its tax base as an element of the GDP to maintain realistic numbers. You think Keynesianism works? Did you think the shuffling of numbers at Enron was legitimate? No? Well now you have an accurate analogy of what deficit spending does.
What we’re seeing is the great unraveling of the American Experiment started more than two hundred years ago, and all anybody can do is call each other names? We’re taxing without representation GENERATIONS that will follow us. This is abhorrent, and while the GOP doesn’t seem to be fighting the stimulus bill for particularly principled reasons, at least the debate over whether deficit spending is sound fiscal policy can again return to the table.
February 6th, 2009 at 10:47 amhyoomen Says:
It’s very possible he was an idiot, though a difficult to assess claim and one which undercuts one’s support for FDR and his ability to make reasonable decisions.
Actually, I don’t think Morgenthau was an idiot, I just think he was wrong. I DO think McCaine is an idiot, because a person who has admitted to the world that he doesn’t know much about economics should refrain from embracing radical revisionist theories he has no idea how to defend. The failure of the Great Depression wasn’t FDR. It was Hoover, Coolidge and all the other Laissez-Faire morons who believed that the financial sector could be cut loose and allowed to regulate themselves. The apple-cart went over the cliff in ‘32-’33 and FDR was the guy who brought it back for a lot of people who in other times would have ended up swinging from the lamp posts.
You talk a bit about “imaginary money”, and I agree. But, you know, if “imaginary money” is what you have, then “imaginary money” is what you have to use. Our “real money” was blown on a war against a country that did nothing against us, and spent on tax cuts for people who already had plenty. “Some call you the ELITE, I call you my base.” The righties who scream about spending now stood by for this then with nary a peep. Bill Clinton handed over an (admittedly) projected multi-trillion dollar surplus; the neoclowns handed over a trillion-dollar deficit.
February 6th, 2009 at 11:12 amEVERY tax cut is government spending. And Bush started borrowing from future generations on practically his first day in office. Who of the republican leadership, crying like babies now, had a problem with it then?
marlow:
I hope you’ll take time to review some balanced sources on the subject of Hoover (and others) as presumed laissez-faire capitalists. Few, if any, of them were. That ought to be clear by simply looking at the rampant protectionism and loose unsound monetary policies endorsed around the turn of the century and again after WWI. FDR continued many of the policies and turned toward internal protectionism in the form of failing price controls (propping up agricultural prices and forcing destruction of livestock/crops while people around the country starved in poverty), confiscated gold (real money), and effectively ended private investment in the nation for the worse part of a decade.
When I talk about imaginary money, I’m including any of what was used to fund the past 6 years of war in Iraq (and 8 in Afghanistan). Ironically, the war likely obfuscated much of the early recession we’re in because of the obscene government spending. Without the war, many analysts suggest we’d have hit bottom much earlier. I do not use this as a rationalization (hell, I’m generally anti-foreign intervention of any type), but it is an interesting exploration of the effect of government spending. What we can see is that likely the reduction in private revenue because of war spending and soon-to-be infrastructure spending will arrest markets ability to reallocate resources efficiently and in a timely manner.
As for the Bill Clinton ’surplus’, this claim has been repeatedly debunked by Conservatives and non-partisan analysts alike: http://www.craigsteiner.us/articles/16 is a good example. If we’re going to talk about Republican leadership not leading a proper attack on Bush’s spending sprees, let us also examine the voting records of every Democrat who voted in favor of the Patriot Act, Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution, etc. Let us be honest — the past eight years was a widespread bipartisan failure.
While I’m no fan of Bush (and I’m not even in a tax bracket worth defending), the constant claim of ‘tax cuts for the rich’ is at least somewhat mitigated by the measurable increase in progressivity (the degree to which the top percentile of earners are held more responsible than those below them) under Bush. http://www.ncpa.org/prs/rel/2008/20080121.html Perhaps this isn’t the best place to get in argument over the fairness of progressive taxes and penalizations against the successful, though? It might be interesting — per the topic — to note that Roosevelt not only levied ridiculous taxes upon the wealthy throughout the Depression (thus arresting the likelihood of private capital investment to turn around the economy), but also decreased the taxbase threshold so low that many people who were above the poverty line ended up below the poverty line after taxes. In other words, Roosevelt taxed a lot of already poor people to the poor house. Oops.
February 6th, 2009 at 11:48 amYou know, hyoomen, whatever you want to say about Clinton’s surplus is fine, the debate goes on along both sides and I’m not going to spend hours fighting over it. He didn’t hand over a smoking black hole deficit and then start opining on the evils of spending. And I’m also not going to defend dems decisions to support Bush’s patriot act either. They were wrong and the country will be reaping the whirlwind of their cowardice for years to come. But I will defend FDR and his policies. To wit, yes he did raise taxes on the wealthy, as he should have. He raised them because they had been brought ridiculously low in the Coolidge/Hoover years. In 1920, the top marginal tax rate was %73. By Hoover’s time it had dropped to %25. Roosevelt brought taxes back to the level they should have been. There were large groups of people then who truly wanted to end capitalism and go to a socialist or communist system and burn the rich out of their houses. FDR headed it all off with taxing and spending and saved this country for dweezils like goopny who slander him now. And he made the poor pay taxes because he knew that if one group could point to another and whine about them not paying their fair share, the whole thing would come apart and there would likely be a revolution or simply unmanageable chaos. So anybody can gripe about how he should have done or shouldn’t have done that, but the country was well on the way to recovery well before WWII started. As far as the poor house is concerned, there were never more people in the poor house than in ‘32-’33 before the New Deal began. My grandparents weren’t rich and my grandfather told me once about the pride he felt in paying his taxes, knowing that he was personally contributing to the nation’s recovery even though he brought less food to the table. End of story for me
February 6th, 2009 at 12:41 pmYour recollections of grandparents’ anecdotal tax-paying pride notwithstanding (and without delving too much into the fact that many of your grandparents’ tax dollars went to propaganda that spread the myths of American unity and tax-payer responsibility during that era), FDR’s submission to Populist and Progressive efforts is clearly less about balance. This can be seen by the fact that Roosevelt’s inclination was not to simply ‘restore’ a previous tax system, but increase taxes on the wealthiest individuals above 90%. Indeed, he sought at one point to increase taxes to 99.5%. That is the epitome of both lunacy and tyranny.
I’d argue that the ‘country’ Roosevelt ’saved’ has never been as free as once it was — nor as genuinely prosperous when correctly accounting for overall tax burden per capita — since the installation of that era’s numerous regulatory and bureaucratic structures. Just as with more recent criticisms of militarism and citizens’ privacy invasions, the caveat of Benjamin Franklin stands strikingly against the New Deal: “Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.”
February 6th, 2009 at 1:03 pmI earn a six figure income, hyoomen, and I believe that if you benefit, as I have, then you have a responsibility to contribute. So it comes down to a philosophical argument, not that FDR failed. He made the wealthiest pay for their excesses in order to survive. It wasn’t lunacy. “Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society” as Oliver Wendell Holmes, noted Republican from a previous generation put it. As far as freedom goes, I would say that when people living in “Hoovervilles” were given jobs that allowed them to earn money, buy food, and participate in the economic life of the country once again, freedom took a giant step forward. The Japanese concentration camps took a giant step back again, for sure, a lesson we really should’nt have had to repeat. Money IS freedom, and many more people had it after FDR than before. I agree absolutely with your Franklin quote, except to say that in the ’30’s, starving people were very ready to “give up Essential Liberty” and purchase a communist/socialist state, where they might at least have a chance of feeding themselves. There wasn’t much freedom in a “Hooverville”. The wealthiest of our country could have done a hell of a lot worse under those circumstances. FDR stopped it, albeit at a high price. Gotta move on, thanks, for the civilized debate, hyooman.
February 6th, 2009 at 2:45 pmFinally a reasonable debate. Thank you hyoomen and Marlow. The name calling and expletives are fun but don’t help us navigate passed the muddled thinking and foggy beliefs/values that dominate the current public debate. You two have raised the bar. We are getting closer to the core of the thing. While getting beyond the name calling and expletives is a positive step forward, we may want to push the envelop a little more and take another step.
The issues we can discuss and the pros and cons of specific actions that have been taken in the past and that should be taken in the future seem endless. Do we cut taxes or increase taxes?; who gets tax cuts;, government jobs or support private sector jobs?; relief for homeowners, Wall Street, banks, or auto manufacturers?, temporary programs or permanent? What FDR programs worked?, what didn’t? Trickle down or trickle up? free trade or fair trade?, regulation or deregulation? run up deficits or balance the budget? etc. I’ve listened to these debates in the political and public arenas, gone to the links cited above and numerous other sites, and followed the media frenzy. From all of this I’ve concluded the following:
#1: HUMAN BEINGS HAVE A TREMENDOUS CAPABILITY OF FORMULATING REASONABLY SOUND ARGUMENTS OR JUSTIFICATIONS IN DEFENSE OF ANY POSITION ON ANY ISSUE. #2: THE POSITION WE TAKE ON ANY OF THESE SPECIFIC ISSUES IS BASED ON OUR FUNDAMENTAL VALUES AND PRINCIPLES.
Therefore, to resolve these debates, to get beyond the endless defenses and rationales of specific issues, an examination of our fundamental values and principles is in order. This is a level of debate that, in my view, is not taking place.
One core value or principle involves the balance between freedom and limits, in particular, between individual freedom and rights and our collective right to limit individual freedom. If we clarify where we stand on this, and come to some kind of consensus on it, most of the solutions to the challenges we face will fall into place. Here’s where I stand:
Both are vital to the health of our nation and of our individual citizens. Extreme positions favoring one or the other are equally damaging. Unrestricted individual freedom leads to chaos and anarchy. Excessive government control and limits on freedom are stifling and oppressive. Examples of both can be found throughout human history, as well as in our individual lives and current political and social reality.
UNRESTRICTED INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM: Sodom and Gomorrah, the Hebrews before the Ten Commandments, the last days of the Roman Empire, smoking crack, stealing, having an affair, human trafficking, pigging out on chocolate, The Reagan-Bush Republican years (as pertaining to the economy).
EXCESSIVE GOVERNMENT LIMITS AND CONTROL Roman Empire in British Isles, English in Scotland, Spanish in the Americas, Kings before the Magna Carta, colonialism, Hitler, Stalin, Saddam Hussein, the Reagan-Bush Republican years (as pertaining to everything but the economy).
With this brief look at a critical core value and principle, I have to say, hyoomem, your people are not only wrong, but hypocritical. The recurring theme that runs through all the links you cited, and all the Republican (and many Democrat) defenders of the Milton Freeman economics (free markets, deregulation, trickle down, “the market is self-regulating”, “freedom-loving people”, “we can’t stifle the entrepreneurial spirit”, “return tax money to those that earned it”, etc.) is a strong and unquestioning belief in the sanctity of individual freedom. But, and here’s the crux of the thing, for them, it only applies to profit-making activities. The hypocrisy is that, for them, individual freedom is not valued in all other aspects of the life of our nation.
What mitigates the balance between individual freedom and the collective right to limit individual freedom is a second core value/principle – justice. More on that later.
February 8th, 2009 at 2:29 pmJust an additional note: God didn’t give Moses the Ten Freedoms, He gave Moses the Ten Commandments (limits)
February 8th, 2009 at 2:37 pmWe need to stop that Bill from Passing,This bill will only make it worse…
Understand that Obama is pushing a national bankrupting “stimulus” plan and trying to scare people into going along and approving it saying it will turn into a catastrophe without that bill.. That is absurd,that bill will be the catastrophe.Yes people are losing jobs daily out there but it’s because Obama hasn’t addressed the financial and credit problems with the banks,and the mortgage crisis also created by these Banks.The problems in our economy originated there and is creating every other problem we are having around the country. Businesses cannot sustain and thrive without credit. People or businesses cannot buy without loans and credit.If they cannot continue to run their businesses they cannot stock and support their business,and the consumers-us cannot buy then they cannot pay their employees. Of course they have to cut down and that means more people lose jobs! This now- is Mr. Obama’s fault. He needs to stop blaming, they’re gone now and he has the money and the control.He got the money to address that before he stepped into that office.
This so called stimulus doesn’t even address those issues at all and cannot possibly resolve those problems or end those lay offs. What is Obama waiting for here? I’ll tell you what- To pass his wish list that will break the back of our economy and rob all of us of our savings, money and livelihoods.? He already has another 350 billion dollars to use to address those Real Issues and The Real Causes Of the problems we’re having and He has done nothing with it. He needs to Resolve those two if he is to do anything first, the rest will correct itself with it.Cause and effect.Resolve the cause-eliminate the effects! In not doing so Obama is deliberately creating- allowing the decline in the economy forcing businesses to come apart.He is the cause for this on going increasing losses of employment and business shrinkages by neglecting his responsibility to Resolve The Problems With The Funds He Already Received To Do Exactly That With.That should have Obama’s number one priority, and had been resolved first and foremost.
Make no mistake here,that lack of address on Obama’s part of those main issues are a deliberate manipulation to achieve his & the Dem.’s desires and agendas which have little to do with stimulating the economy. Most of what is in that bill has no business being in a stimulus bill at all and can be addressed separately later on in a timely manner,in the proper fashion and gone over with a fine tooth comb. Obama also needs to pay ACORN out of his own pocket for their ‘$upport” and “help” with his election-Not with our tax dollars! Obama said last night that “that is what a stimulus is.Spending..” That’s spending that “stimulates our economy Now” Mr. Obama! Not 3 & 4 or more years later.That bill doesn’t serve the American people in that respect, and much of what I’ve read in that bill says to me that our government wants to drive the American people into poverty. We don’t want or need more government. Jobs that we will also have to pay for. Any contracts on workable projects and infrastructure needs to be given in The Private Sector Period.There are more than sufficient amounts of businesses and services in the private sector that can be contracted for any of the work needed to stimulate the economy and create more of those jobs in the private sector “NOW”. No more government-we need less government, no more dysfunctional organizations.
If you really look through that plan you might see what I see which is a plan designed to create a poverty nation.A Welfare Nation that is financially enslaved to this government and the rich & wealthy-the Elites around the world.They want to control everything including our children and Us.We will have and do only what they decide we’ll have and do.This so called stimulus plan is like the Set Trap to a complete loss of our individual rights and freedoms.If we all don’t stand up for them and protect them-Game Over.We’ll lose everything…..
This bill will not help those who are losing their homes or those who’ve been laid off.Everything in the way of “Help” from the government you will get after that bill-You can get right now.There isn’t going to be anything more coming out of that bill other than higher taxes on the unemployment money you’ll have to pay in 2010 on your 1090.It may bring those $25.00 more for the Un-Empl. but that’s it.Big deal-it still leaves you in poverty.I know.The spending in that bill will cost us,it will not address or stimulate our economy and bares little benefit at all and for years to come.Did you see that bill? Did you notice that what help they offer people is in Unemployment benefits,food stamps,medicaid etc.?? That’s because that will be the NORM from this point forward because the economy will not be stimulated in any way shape or form by that bill.It will only be creating more debt,more taxes to pay,more poverty for us.That bill must be stopped and stripped of the spending that does nothing to help you & me-all of Us.It only creates larger government and more control over US.Our country will become even more unstable people.We will be crying for America- our country this year,it will be a very sad time indeed…
A petition was created and sent to government officials saying that “We say No To Passing That Bill!” We oppose the American Recovery and Reinvestment Bill of 2009.
Congress should not enact an expensive spending bill under the pretense of stimulus or recovery. We cannot spend our way to prosperity, and such an expansion of the federal government will put a crushing burden on taxpayers in the long-term. If there is an infrastructure bill, it should repair deficient roads and bridges only, not directly or indirectly fund special interest pork-projects that will not stimulate this economy at all and bury the American people with ongoing debt and more debt creation.
Central planning and bigger government cannot solve our problems. Authorizing the proposed bill will only be throwing good money after bad. Instead of trying to pick winners and losers from Washington, Congress should cut spending, strip down onerous regulations and allow individuals and free enterprise to flourish.One-time spending on hand-picked projects will not lead to sustained economic growth. I urge everyone to vote NO on American Recovery and Reinvestment Bill of 2009. The problem with Mr. Obama’s Plan For Stimulating Our Economy is-There is No Plan!
**One more thing,Mr. Obama’s email list is compromised of His crooked bought and paid for “ACORN” support systems and bears little in comparison to the majority of the overall masses of American People Who Do Not Want A Government Controlled Poverty-Welfare Nation Created By Mr. Obama and his Government. Names on that contact email list of his should be ignored.
February 8th, 2009 at 8:11 pm