Edging towards a depression.
By on Feb 7th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
Edging towards a depression.
The current recession that the United States economy finds itself in is, by far, dramatically worse than the recessions of 1990-91 and 2001. How much worse? The economy has lost 3.6 million jobs in the last 13 months. The Gavel compares these numbers to the two most recent recessions:
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Let us lift your spirits with some Political Satire..from the best.
Roy Zimmerman…the funnies political satirist on the country will be perfroming
February 7th, 2009 at 1:04 pmhis Dick Cheney Love Song, NSA, and Chicken Hawk , as well as Ted Haggard is Completely Heterosexual today http://www.rationalradio.org from 1-3pm cst.
PHone us for request …800 277 1637 ext 703
Support liberal radio as we try to exist in the backyard of George & Laura Bush.
The show will be performed in the nude.
Thats a heck of a ski slope on that graph.
February 7th, 2009 at 1:11 pmThis is bush’s legacy and Iraqi’s have free national health care……
February 7th, 2009 at 1:12 pmFred Says:
This is bush’s legacy and Iraqi’s have free national health care……
What?!? I thought they Voted For Democracy! Now you’re telling me that Iraq is a socialist dictatorship nanny state that tells people when they can brush their teeth?
/wingnut
So, yeah – I can’t imagine the overall curve having that much of a different shape from the first two, so we’re looking at, what, four years minimum?
February 7th, 2009 at 1:18 pmElBruce, I see you have been studying your opponent so that you know him as yourself.
You are ready.
Snatch this pebble from my hand.
Well done. Now go and fight for Justice.
February 7th, 2009 at 1:21 pmThank you Bush, Chenney & Co., Thanks for the military spending! Thanks for the trillions wasted in the Middle East FIASCO. Thanks for the foringner debt incurred on all Americans because of that. Thanks for the industrial military (congressional)complex and its economy killing budget. Thanks for the spineless congress for rubber stamping 8 years of this self destructing policies. Thanks for the so called “free markets” and “globalization” for sending American industry jobs overseas and bringing ‘made in America’ to its knees…
February 7th, 2009 at 1:28 pmNice job Bush/Cheney/Republican Party. Oh how history will judge ya’ll!
February 7th, 2009 at 1:29 pmralph, you guys are missing the fun:
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/02/06/senate-cable-stimulus-debate/#comment-5489156
February 7th, 2009 at 1:30 pmreal wages have gone down and depressed for at least two years, real investments in this country have gone down and depressed for at least two years, real assets have gone down and depressed for at least two years, real savings have gone down and depressed for at least two years
this has been a depression for at least two years, what people are seeing now is the boil not the desease
February 7th, 2009 at 1:34 pmThis is definitely not your father’s recession. What is most concerning is that the numbers are still escalating. All of the media heads and republicans who are chiding Obama for using the ‘politics of fear’ and ‘talking down the economy’ to convey the urgency of our predicament should look at this graph and then tell people there is no need to rush.
February 7th, 2009 at 1:40 pmEdging towards a depression.
Its more like falling off a cliff towards a depression.
February 7th, 2009 at 1:42 pmAs far back as December 2007 some of us were warning that inaction on fiscal and monetary policy would cause a recession at least as deep as the Reagan recession. As I said back then, it looks like Bush was content to simply kick the can down the road and let the new administration deal with it.
Of course Morning Joe was saying just last week that nobody saw this coming. Morning Joe simply wasn’t open to listening to the alarms others were ringing very loudly. I guess that is what extreme smugness does to someone.
This steep recession, just like everything else that went wrong under Bush, was both predictable and predicted. Bush simply didn’t learn. That is what is so tragic about the pickle we find ourselves in today. It was completely avoidable. All it would have taken was a little leadership.
February 7th, 2009 at 1:46 pmthis has been a depression for at least two years, what people are seeing now is the boil not the desease
February 7th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
Real wages have been effectively stagnant 1982.
February 7th, 2009 at 1:49 pm1. Our population has grown markedly in the last 20 years – how does this graph look as represented by % of population?
2. Funny how the Recession of the late 70’s didn’t make it onto this graph….
3. BOO! Now hush up and give Obama a trillion dollars, it is only the first installment on what he will be asking for in the months ahead.
(Ralph, thanks for the Gatorade, am feeling much better now)
February 7th, 2009 at 1:52 pmscary – but let’s be clear – it was all made possible by the mainstream media.
They made it possible for an AWOL abusive alcoholic/cocaine addict to be fraudulently hoisted into the White House. From there, the dutifully “catapult the propaganda” for the criminal cabal that chimpy fronted.
February 7th, 2009 at 1:52 pmNice job Bush/Cheney/Republican Party. Oh how history will judge ya’ll!
They are working on that, spending millions of dollars to rehab. They have even co-opted the Methodist Church to do their dirty work.
If the folks behind dur chimpfurher and the mainstream media were able to fraudulently hoist chimpy into the White House, the will eventually find a way to resurrect the corpse of his legacy.
Please don’t kid yourself – we will see more from the bush clan on the national stage again and the mainstream media that brought us the chimp will dutifully do their part to legitimize the next one.
February 7th, 2009 at 1:55 pmYeah, funny, that. Funny that the Recession of the early eighties didn’t make it either… maybe it has something to do wit the limits of the survey, but I doubt it. Must be a liberal plot.
Maybe Obama would have better luck if he claimed that scary brown people wanted to launch a “mushroom cloud” if he didn’t get the money. Now THERE is a “BOO” for ya.
Anytime. I see you’re back to your old self.
February 7th, 2009 at 2:00 pmThe Great Republican Depression.
February 7th, 2009 at 2:03 pmTrickle-down economics working to a “T”.
February 7th, 2009 at 2:05 pmThe college history books are already out with bush lauded as a failure……don’t be so sure he will come out of this smelling like a rose.
February 7th, 2009 at 2:05 pmYeah, it was nixon…..
February 7th, 2009 at 2:06 pmTracy__5 and keltoy, why weren’t you calling bullshit on bush with the Iraq war? You seem to be clairvoiant. Just wondering how that got past your super abilities?
February 7th, 2009 at 2:08 pmUS population 2000 – 250 mill
February 7th, 2009 at 2:13 pmUS population 2009 – 300 mill 17% increase
US recession 2001 – 2.0 million jobs by month 12
US recession 2009 – 3.6 million jobs by month 12 (most in the last few months) 75% more jobs loss than in 2001.
I’m a total liberal and HUGE Obama supporter, but this chart IS a bit misleading.
Based on the population (1991 – 247 million, 2001 – 278 million, 2008 – 303 million):
In 1991 1 in every 155 jobs were lost
In 2001 1 in every 102 jobs were lost
Right now? 1 in every 84 jobs were lost.
We aren’t even remotely CLOSE to the previous recessions yet. Not to say that we won’t get there, but to just compare the number of jobs lost and not the population of the US is a little misleading.
February 7th, 2009 at 2:14 pmIn 1974 in Pensacola,Florida (Escambia County,) welders, rodbusters,and structural ironworkers scale on projects that are funded by Uncle Sam was $7.66 per hour! Today the same trades only can expect to recieve a federal wage of $10.10 per hr. That’s a increase of $2.44 in 35 years, or roughly a pay increase of about 7 cents per year since 1974!
February 7th, 2009 at 2:14 pm——————————————————————————–
ralph the wonder llama Says:
2. Funny how the Recession of the late 70’s didn’t make it onto this graph….
Yeah, funny, that. Funny that the Recession of the early eighties didn’t make it either… maybe it has something to do wit the limits of the survey, but I doubt it. Must be a liberal plot.
Same recession, methinks. This site
http://www.miseryindex.us/urbymonth.asp
is pretty cool for putting things in the long view, though it doesn’t go all the way back to the Depression.
3. BOO! Now hush up and give Obama a trillion dollars, it is only the first installment on what he will be asking for in the months ahead.
Maybe Obama would have better luck if he claimed that scary brown people wanted to launch a “mushroom cloud” if he didn’t get the money. Now THERE is a “BOO” for ya.
Fear mongering works for both ends of the political spectrum, it seems. It took Bush a year of it before invading Iraq; gotta credit Obama for the fierce urgency of now, he is demanding his money within a month of his inauguration.
(Ralph, thanks for the Gatorade, am feeling much better now)
Anytime. I see you’re back to your old self.
Yep! Can’t hang around today though, stuff to do, but its still appreciated, I’ll give you some more Troll material to get pissed off about in the future, promise.
February 7th, 2009 at 2:14 pmYeah, Trace. It’s the same refrain you spout whenever the First Bush recession pops up, or the First Reagan Recession.
You usually take a different tack when the subject if the Bush 41 Recession in 1990, or the Recession that Keltoi referred to, which followed on the heels of a disgraced Republican administration.
I could be underestimating you, trace — were you trying to imply that our current economic meltdown can be blamed on Clinton?
This should be interesting…
February 7th, 2009 at 2:15 pmUh.. what?
You do realize, don’t you. that 1 in 84 jobs lost is far, far worse than 1 in 155 jobs lost. twice as bad, in fact.
If you’re not convinced, take it to the extreme — say 1 in 5 jobs was lost, then compare that with 1 in 2 jobs lost.
The lower number means a higher percentage, which means a worse employment picture.
February 7th, 2009 at 2:17 pmFred – point is chimpy never had any credentials to “win” the White House. He was selected by the SCOTUS in the first stolen elect, 2004 was a theft too.
The administration was actually one scandal after another. BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of dollars were looted from the treasury – right under our noses.
If they can “catapult” that propaganda and nothing has changed in the MSM, they can do it again.
Oh – and just who reads their college textbooks anyhow?
February 7th, 2009 at 2:18 pmThen you’r super powers are not working correctly. It was illegal and a total failure from the very beginning. All but you and bush and cheney acknowledge that.
We created a commie, nannie state in Iraq where they all have 100% free health care….who are now better allies with Iran than they are with us……failure..
So if you didn’t catch that blunder, how oh wise one can we depend on your judgment on this?
February 7th, 2009 at 2:18 pmYou may be right (although I don’t recall Obama actually using those words) but you guys on the right don’t seem to get very scared about economic misery, as long as you got yours. Mushroom clouds really get your panties in a bunch though. If someone mentions :mushroom cloud” you’re ready to surrender all kinds of civili liberties if they promise to keep you safe.
February 7th, 2009 at 2:20 pmRalph,
Oh my god. YOu’re right. I completely wrote that out wrong.
In 1991 it was 1.5%
In 2001 it was 1.02%
NOW it’s .84%
(1991 = 247 mill population/1.6 mill jobs lost, 2001 = 278 mill/ 2.7 mill jobs lost, 2008 = 303 mill/3.6 mill jobs lost)
Sorry – correct math, incorrect original post.
February 7th, 2009 at 2:24 pmWell Joe, I think things are changing. gumble won’t be allowing mergers where clear channel can control the message and I see reversals of his policies in the works…….trying to be hopeful here man….ya know.
who reads their college textbooks…….that’s funny but sad. I admit that many cheat but my kids are learning in college…..we pay for it and the real test doesn’t come until after graduation anyway…..that has been my message to my kids.
I read them too……that’s how I knew this little gem. It’s reasuring to see it in print in a college textbook that bush was a failure.
February 7th, 2009 at 2:25 pmoh gawd…
how can i even try to be upbeat and positive with this?
i have 2 weddings to help plan and be cheerful about…
so, how DOES one find a good counceler/shrink… my head hurts…
seriously. i know we have some among us… how?
February 7th, 2009 at 2:25 pmjanie0419, honest mistake……not much gets by Ralphi. We value him here.
February 7th, 2009 at 2:27 pmI fudged the math in my post. Sorry gang, my brain has mailed it in for the weekend…
February 7th, 2009 at 2:28 pmFred,
Not a problem, I completely appreciate him pointing that out, I was completely off the first time, lol.
February 7th, 2009 at 2:30 pmYes, I blame Bush&Co.
But the media shares a great deal of blame because it failed in its mission to tell keep the public honestly informed.
This is shaping up to be more like our grandfather’s depression.
February 7th, 2009 at 2:30 pmObama is going to have to tell obstructionist republicans to either get on board or get left behind. There is a long hard slog ahead and there is no place for their self interests.
No, janie, I think you were right in your first post. Just glancing at the numbers, it looks like we’re already worse than the last two recession.
A 1990 population of 247 million loses 1.6 million jobs, that’s a smaller percentage than a population of 300 million losing 3.6 million jobs.
1.6 million is less than 1% of 247 million, but 3.6 million is more than 1% of 300 million.
it’s already worse.
February 7th, 2009 at 2:32 pmMedia is already consolidated – a handful of multinational corporations controls nearly everything we see and hear on the screen, over the airwaves and in print
They do not need more consolidation, they have effective control right now.
We need more than a moratorium on consolidation, we need a free market of ideas and that doesn’t exist right now.
February 7th, 2009 at 2:34 pmAwwriiiiight!
Tracist pulled out the “Nixon was a liberal!” canard.
Excellent. As if Tracist’s credibility needed a further hit.
February 7th, 2009 at 2:37 pmKeltoi at Night Says: …
Fear mongering works for both ends of the political spectrum, it seems. It took Bush a year of it before invading Iraq;
B U S H . L I E D .
AND LIED AND LIED AND LIED AND LIED AND LIED.
AND LIED SOME MORE.
THIS IS BUSH’S DEPRESSION.
AND YOU HELPED.
February 7th, 2009 at 2:39 pmTracy__5 Says:
So you admit it was nixon…..he cut taxes on the rich and deregulated you know……just saying
February 7th, 2009 at 2:40 pmAnother Joe:
We need more than a moratorium on consolidation, we need a free market of ideas and that doesn’t exist right now.
A retooled Fairness Doctrine would help restore some balance to the lopsided media. And just the threat of instituting it would drive the Rushpublicans into a hissy fit of nuclear proportions.
February 7th, 2009 at 2:41 pmThis is a deep recession that could possibly slip to depression.
It does seem that a more accurate measure would be based on a percentage of jobs.
The assumption is that the U.S. has a larger work force today (because the population is more) than it did in 1990 or 2001.
Larger numbers would be expected in a downturn that started with more people employed.
What would be more relevant would be the unemployment rates.
February 7th, 2009 at 2:42 pmAnd you think the domestic surveillance program is some sort of new thing that they Bush administration invented?
That would be the plumbers.
Remember?
February 7th, 2009 at 2:44 pmTracy__5 Says:
#37
“…you guys on the right don’t seem to get very scared about economic misery, as long as you got yours”
We are scared when a bunch of unqualified politicians think they can be the saviors of this economy.
-
Yes It is scary that all those republicans who cheered leaded W as he drove the country into ditch think they have the answer to this economic debacle.
February 7th, 2009 at 2:44 pmGod, b-cup, sitting here trying to deal with Tracy, I appreciate you more than ever.
i know I give you a hard time of it sometimes, but, damn, at least you can bring some intelligence to the conversation.
February 7th, 2009 at 2:46 pmwikipedia
February 7th, 2009 at 2:46 pmThe assumption is that the U.S. has a larger work force today (because the population is more) than it did in 1990 or 2001.
And now, exponentially more bh1b visa workers. Are they even counted in this graph? Or just “american” workers?
February 7th, 2009 at 2:46 pmBut you support a group who has a recent history of failure at controlling our economy and your solution is more of the same? Is that about it?
If you would acknowledge truth you would admit that dems have often been the saviors of an economy trashed by republicans.
You have nothing so you offer nothing….thanks but we already have plenty.
February 7th, 2009 at 2:47 pm???
Read Nixonland, grasshopper…
February 7th, 2009 at 2:48 pmralph. you’re just saying that.
my take is, this circumstance is not yet, but will probably be the worst economic circumstance since the Great Depression.
Government has a role. The decisions our leaders make today will have hugh consequences. To me, the arguments for more FDR type government spending make sense. I also feel like tax cuts could cause stimulus. Either way, someday we’ll have to pay the money back.
But, obviously I don’t know the magic answer. And what causes me the most unease, is that I’m not that confident that anyone really knows.
That being said, progressives have earned the right (thru the past two elections) to try it their way.
February 7th, 2009 at 2:52 pmHow about living in the real world. It was supposed to create a democracy and it has not, it is a theocracy now that is a closer ally with Iran than it is with us…..your thoughts as to how this is a success?
February 7th, 2009 at 2:54 pmNow you want to have it both ways? You admitted that it was nixon and he did cut taxes on the rich and deregulate and the economy did falter…….how do you reconcile that?
February 7th, 2009 at 2:57 pmYour assumption that everyone of the 300 million folks in the country works,they don’t.
February 7th, 2009 at 2:57 pmIn order to find out what the unemployment rate is:
First you need to find out what the actual working population of the 300 million is for any given year,then divide that number by the reported unemployment percentage.
Here’s another way the reporting of the unemployed is reached: You are only reported by the DOL for just your first 6 weeks drawing unemployment pay! After 6 weeks your not counted anymore!
t5, the guys who thought like you just failed…..why don’t you get it? Are you just scared all the time of everything and these daddy figures who tell you it will all be ok if you just listen to them somehow make you feel warm and fuzzy and safe? They failed, you need to acknowledge that so the healing can begin.
February 7th, 2009 at 2:59 pmYeah we kind belive that the free market should dictate what radio programs suceed and fail. You guys just want that governement to police the airwaves.
We kind of believe they also have a duty to tell more than just the self-serving half of the story. Republicans’ ideas are so weak, and badly conceived, they cannot withstand the rigors of true debate.
February 7th, 2009 at 3:01 pmTracy__5 Says:
#52
“A retooled Fairness Doctrine would help restore some balance to the lopsided media.”
Yeah we kind belive that the free market should dictate what radio programs suceed and fail. You guys just want that governement to police the airwaves.
February 7th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
-
February 7th, 2009 at 3:01 pmThere is no such thing as a free market when the number of corporations who control 80% of media in this country can be counted on one hand. But abstractly, if what you believe is true, why are right-wingers always complaining about ‘librul media.’ Wouldn’t that be an expression of the free market, as you see it.
And the opposite of what you say is where we have been and look where we are as a result. Are you a crack baby?
February 7th, 2009 at 3:02 pmrush’s popularity is at 24%, republicans have pulled down congressional approval ratings to their lowest level, ratings for republicans in congress are even lower than bush’s……..
What you see is not the free market at work, it is unregulated media corporations dictating the discussion……
February 7th, 2009 at 3:08 pmTracy just hasn’t yet figured out that his ideology has been proven bankrupt, of real world solutions to the very problems it caused. Deregulate, until we’re on depression’s doorstep; cut taxes, and capital flees for tax exempt locales.
Totally bankrupt.
February 7th, 2009 at 3:08 pmThis is the result of reaganomics, tax cuts for the wealthy, borrowing from China to pay for an illegal, immoral, unnecessary war as well as deregulating to allow the thugs to steal the banks broke. The rethuglicans really showed themselves this time. Hoover did it back in the twenties and now W and the rethuglican party with McSame have done it again. Well done you asswipes.
February 7th, 2009 at 3:11 pmI just said that this was not what caused the economy to faulter in the 1970s….wage and price control by the federal government led to multiple energy crises.
But it didn’t extend to dividends, interest, or profits.
ThaT would appear to be conservative.
February 7th, 2009 at 3:12 pmIsn’t it great how hard-core wingnuts can slice and dice historical facts and serve them up to suit their purposes?
Tracist says Nixon wasn’t “conservative” economically. Fred points out that Nixon embraced the two primary pillars of economic theory — tax cuts on the rich and deregulation — but Tracist insists that it wasn’t THOSE parts of his economic policies that caused the damage. It was really the bad evill librul stuff.
Trace, do you think anyone here takes you seriously?
February 7th, 2009 at 3:12 pmI would rather go thru a down cycle they give up my liberty and see my country turned into a state run mess.
Yet that is what your conservative representatives have wrought.
The irony is thick.
February 7th, 2009 at 3:12 pmIf people wanted to listen to the “crap” they would.
Crap, meaning the “rest of the story” as Paul Harvey says. You prefer one-dimensional pap, if you listen to conservative radio.
February 7th, 2009 at 3:15 pmAnd you think that if it would have extended to those things price and wage control would have worked?
Answering your previous challenge, old fellow.
Remember?
February 7th, 2009 at 3:17 pmTracy__5 Says:
Each to his own opinion.
*
But…
Reality is absolute… (mostly)
And it is not on your side…
February 7th, 2009 at 3:18 pmWell, you’re getting your wish exept it’s going to be a lot worse than a downturn. Hope you’re happy, I’m not.
February 7th, 2009 at 3:18 pmI have already seen a entire county collape and disappear based on your ideology.
Tracy’s confused socialism with communism.
February 7th, 2009 at 3:19 pmSorry t5, that makes no sense. Would you like to explain what it means? Are you saying Clinton did it? Are you saying Obama did it? Really?
February 7th, 2009 at 3:22 pmnot going to get into it too much here ( other blogs to visit)…but
courtesy of Dr P:
US population 2000 – 250 mill
US population 2009 – 300 mill 17% increase
US recession 2001 – 2.0 million jobs by month 12
US recession 2009 – 3.6 million jobs by month 12 (most in the last few months) 75% more jobs loss than in 2001.
SO, there are now 50-million more 9 year-olds who are unemployed!!
February 7th, 2009 at 3:24 pmI have listen to the garbage that is Air America. It is so one dimensional it makes Limbaugh look like Tim Russert.
Comparing Rush to a decomposing corpse? Not much of a stretch, given Rush already looks swollen from trapped intestinal gas.
February 7th, 2009 at 3:24 pmTracy__5 Says:
Yeah we kind belive that the free market should dictate what radio programs suceed and fail. You guys just want that governement to police the airwaves.
February 7th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
_____________
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Do you seriously think that it’s a FREE MARKET when six companies control the vast majority of the media?
February 7th, 2009 at 3:27 pmjanie0419 said:
(1991 = 247 mill population/1.6 mill jobs lost,
2001 = 278 mill/ 2.7 mill jobs lost,
2008 = 303 mill/3.6 mill jobs lost) and then gave some faulty percentages
Sorry, janie, wrong original post, AND wrong math.
February 7th, 2009 at 3:28 pmIf you want the percentage of jobs LOST, the #jobs_lost has to be in the numerator, not the denominator! Check out your elementary school math. The percentages are 0.65% in 1991, 0.97% in 2001, and 1.19% in 2009. I agree that the original hart was not informative enough; he should have just charted the number lost over the number of the peak month. This would have shown that the relative loss is much greater this year, but also would have shown that it is still small compared to the total number. But the SLOPE is really worrying!
Explain how it would have worked.
You asked to provide evidence that Nixon’s economic policies of price and wage controls are conservative ideas. That he didn’t include dividends, profits, or interest, shows the program had a conservative element to it.
Is that clear?
February 7th, 2009 at 3:29 pmOne could say the same about conservatism and fascism. Basically the same (comma) just one is more extreme. The government is “bought” by and serves the corporate sector.
February 7th, 2009 at 3:29 pmAnd as Nixonland details, AFL-CIO’s George Meany pointed out that it could have included these items, but the program really was “Robin Hood in reverse, robbing the poor to pay for the rich.”
Very conservative, indeed.
February 7th, 2009 at 3:32 pmI have listen to the garbage that is Air America. It is so one dimensional it makes Limbaugh look like Tim Russert.
-
Russert was Cheney’s favorite lapdog. He knew he could lie with impunity on MTP. The ‘big lie’ about Saddam reconstituting nuclear capability was passed on MTP, among numerous others.
February 7th, 2009 at 3:32 pmI never claimed otherwise. I prefer to let my comments stand for themselves. I’m confident that my contributions here are recognized for whatever value they offer.
February 7th, 2009 at 3:33 pmRepublican leaders are practicing a degree of hypocrisy and guerilla obstructionism that is more about destabilizing our economy for purposes of political exploitation than it is about trying to stop the bleeding their leadership and their policies created and continue to exacerbate. They are using arguably conflicting economic theories as a smokescreen to conceal their real agenda, which is to undermine a Democratic president. The percentage of money in the stimulus package that Republicans have tried to “disproportionately sensationalize” is relatively miniscule. All of a sudden Republican leaders care about pork? I don’t buy that BS at all. No one wants money going into unnecessary programs, but I’d rather that some pork exist than block the funds to areas critical to our countries financial survival. That’s the way things have always been done in American government. It’s the normal give and take inherent to a Democratic system. It’s human nature to want more for your people. That’s why rules/laws, oversight, enforcement and accountability are so critical to effective government. But, the Republican leaders are attempting to hold those critical funds hostage right now. I don’t mind that Republicans and Democrats argue over where the monies go. But I do mind that Republican leaders are acting like the Democrats have suddenly invented pork projects after the years that Republicans were in the majority and the Democrats were forced to swallow voluminous quantities of pork because it was shoved down their throats, and in fact has helped to create today’s financial crisis. The Iraq invasion and occupation wasn’t even part of the budget for god’s sake. The money to pay for it doesn’t exist. Where the hell is that money going to come from? When Bush entered office, he had a $128 billion surplus. The federal budget deficit will reach at least $1.2 TRILLION this year thanks to Republican fiscal policies. And Republican leaders are acting like their incredibly irresponsible/suicidal/misguided leadership had nothing to do with that fact. The Republican Party is now the minority Party. The majority of voters have rejected Republican governance/policies because they believe they have failed them on multiple levels. Now Republican leaders are trying to cause Democratic governance/policies to fail, which I see as Republican leaders purposefully trying to sabotage Obama rather than doing what’s in the common good and best interests of our nation at a critically dangerous time. And they won’t even admit that they created the crisis! Republican leaders are still doing whatever they can to create vague/philosophical/subjective arguments that no one can agree on in order to disrupt and deny rather than formulate and agree. They don’t want unity, they want chaos. They want fear and hatred to divide our nation for strictly POLITICAL purposes because they do not have the power of the majority. That’s how they gained power, and that’s how they’re trying to get it back. They will fail, but they will continue to do severe damage. I don’t see that as being the loyal opposition. I see it as being an enemy within whose political biases have lowered their moral and ethical standards. It’s not about right or wrong or fact or logic or good or bad. It’s about power and control and doing whatever it takes no matter how destructive it might be to prevent Democrats from succeeding. I want our country to succeed. If Republicans would rather make the opposition fail than see our country succeed what choice do conscientious leaders and voters have but to condemn and or ignore them? It’s one thing for a political party try to win on its merits; it’s another thing entirely to try to deliberately undermine and cripple their government for partisan political purposes. At least it is in a democracy where it is assumed that our elected representatives place the good of their country ahead of the good of their political party. I wish I felt otherwise, but I don’t feel that Republican leaders give two shits about their country. Their lack of constructive actions and their deliberate destructive actions don’t support any other conclusion……in my humble opinion.
February 7th, 2009 at 3:35 pmbarfly, you’re just doing this for exercise, right?
I mean, even if Tracist were capable of following a coherent thought, he’s clearly not willing.
Still, I appreciate a good Troll Whacking as much as the next guy. Game on!
February 7th, 2009 at 3:36 pmTracy. liberty and government involvement are not black and white issues.
I use to believe that liberty was a concrete idea. An objective unalienable right. But, in reality, liberty is only a subjective thing that society, as a whole, determines for the individual.
That may seem like an affront, but it’s merely reality, because of the inevitable connection that all people of a society have. The right of a man to swing his fist, ends where the other man’s nose begins.
The idea that government imposes limits to your liberty is natural. It is reality. And most importantly, it is unavoidable. You probably wouldn’t want to live in a society that had no limits to personal liberty. It would be literal anarchy.
Government has an unavoidable role to play in society. The question is how much of a role.
There is obviously some balance. The American people have decided that the excesses of conservatism and capitalism need to be reigned in. They’ve elected progressives in the last two cycles.
Hopefully, progressives will govern wisely and the American people will prosper. If they don’t, the same forces that reigned in capitalism will act on those that propose greater socialism.
I believe it’s a great system that will serve us well.
February 7th, 2009 at 3:39 pmTracy__5 Says:
The nine stupidest words in the English Language
I am a rightwing moron Here’s what Rush thinks
February 7th, 2009 at 3:39 pmmaybe this has already been mentioned, but here goes.
As we know the DC area is 90% progressive but:
Washington, DC’s only progressive talk station, Obama 1260, is switching formats this weekend.
Head to their website to voice your concern!
More from Bill Press:
February 7th, 2009 at 3:42 pm
Tracy__5 Says: 54
I see Tracy is back to regurgitating the REAL vintage stupidity. How about illegal according to the Nuremberg precedent? Interntional law? The UN Charter which since we RATIFIED IT would be the highest law of the land equal to Federal law? You can make the argument that the Use of Force bill superceded it but there really isnt ANY argument it violated international law. Even Richard Perle warmonger extrordanaire admitted it did.
February 7th, 2009 at 3:43 pmPrice and wage controls are not conservative ideas.
Nixon’s were. He chose not to include those parts conservatives consider the engines of economic growth. Nixon’s package was conservative, from that standpoint.
Now if you’re going to ague from some fantasy position, go ahead. But Nixon’s policies were conservative, and consistently had the support of the conservatives of his time in office.
February 7th, 2009 at 3:44 pmGame on!
Thanks, Ralph.
It’s raining here, so what else is there to do?
February 7th, 2009 at 3:46 pmTracy__5 Says:
“And the opposite of what you say is where we have been and look where we are as a result.”
I would rather go thru a down cycle they give up my liberty and see my country turned into a state run mess.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You are ridiculous. You have no PROBLEM with Bush and his warrantless wiretapping or the end of habeus corpus but government spending is somehow taking your liberty. You are brainwashed beyond belief
February 7th, 2009 at 3:48 pmNot a surprise to hear you say that. If I depended on your esteem, Tracist, I would probably be feeling pretty low right now. Happily, I’ve seen the level of intellect at which you operate, and I’ve accounted for that in evaluating your opinion.
February 7th, 2009 at 3:51 pmTracy__5 Says:“The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’
As of when, 1981? Some straight talk, my friend: times have changed. The most terrifying words in the English language today are, “I’m a conservative and I’m here to obstruct.”
February 7th, 2009 at 3:56 pmHe has already scared everyone to death by saying that if the government doesn’t pass this massive spending bill that we are all going to be in bread lines. -=T5=-
Actually that was Dubya talking about martial law if the banksters of wall street [Madoff street] werent bailed out.
February 7th, 2009 at 3:57 pmTrace, the game you play is not very interesting and will lead nowhere. I’ve seen it before and I think I’m smart enough to know when to expend energy and when not.
Besides, barfly doesn’t need any help. You don’t realize it, but you’re just about to have a little bow placed on your forehead.
February 7th, 2009 at 3:59 pmTracy__5 Says:
I dont live on this site and that is all you deserve. I dont really want to waste my time with another debate where you tell us Habeus Corpus means chewing bubblegum because YOU say so and words mean exactly what you SAY they mean.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:01 pmYou hear about the large scale layoffs on the news, but every company is letting go people every week. It’s frightening as hell, and it’s only going to get worse.
Will the stimulus bill work, I don’t think anyone knows. But everyone but a wingnut fool knows that tax cuts alone won’t work. You can polish that turd, put a nice suit on the turd, send the turd to etiquette class, in the end it’s still just a stinking turd of an idea.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:01 pmTracy__5 Says:
I knew I could count on you Debs to be late. Good job.
Debs does his duty and rips trolls to shreds. And he’s not late; I usually find him finishing off mouthbreathers like you.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:02 pmIs Tracist a mouthbreather? I always saw him as more of a knuckledragger.
Ah, well, I guess he could be both, right?
February 7th, 2009 at 4:04 pmAn appealing aspect of the FDR approach is the widespread belief that we have deferred a lot of infrastructure spending. Power grid, roads and bridges, the need for reduced our dependance on foreign oil, etc. Even if those spending measures didn’t stimulate the economy, at least the money would be going to projects that need to get done anyway.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:07 pmTracy. I’ve got no desire to subjugate our sovereignty to anyone. But, how do we expect others to abide by international law, if we are unwilling to do it.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:09 pmThe cons want tax cuts tax cuts tax cuts. Take the tax cuts of 1.3 trillion from 2003. Irresponsible tax cuts led to deficits; then on to weaker government; then on to unchecked corruption; then on to necessitated government spending to deal with the aftermath of that corruption, where only deficit funds were available because revenues were cut. Tax cuts always incur future costs and a need to regulate.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:10 pmThis is no secret. Just ask anyone who was of at teen age by the 1930’s.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:12 pmWasn’t it john mclame’s economic adviser during the campaign who claimed we weren’t in a recession and that americans were mental? how did that change in just a few short months?
February 7th, 2009 at 4:13 pmralph the wonder llama Says:
Is Tracist a mouthbreather? I always saw him as more of a knuckledragger.
Ah, well, I guess he could be both, right?
Trolls do well at displaying a range of negative traits. Who could rule out anything?
February 7th, 2009 at 4:14 pmWe’re waiting for you to lift the economy out of a rut with your drafting skills, Trace.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:16 pmB-cup, of course that kind of infrastructure spending would stimulate the economy to some degree — you have to hire workers to do those jobs. The only real downside to infrastructure spending, if done wisely and efficiently, is that it takes tax dollars which have to be either collected from the populace or borrowed from the rest of the world. That’s in normal economic times.
These are not normal times. All responsible observers — economists, historians, public officials — recognize that our economy is in serious trouble, with few options available to us. The consensus was “screw the deficit; spend the money, deal with the debt later”.
Now Republican, seemingly jealous of the Democrats’ opportunity to make major changes in economic policy, have decided they want in, too, and the Democrats have let them get their foot in.
Tax cuts are a mistake in this climate. Tax cuts can have an impact, but only if the level of taxation is onerous, as it was in 1963. The war had been paid for and Kennedy recognized the value in cutting the top tax rate — from 91% to 70%. And the economy boomed.
Cutting taxes now will only make the debt problem worse in the long term and won’t have any impact on job creation. Businesses aren’t stalling on investment because their taxes are too high. They’re stalling because their earnings are low or non-existent, and they don’t know what they’re going to face in the next year or two. Cutting their taxes isn’t going to make that any clearer. They’ll still sit on their money. they’ll just have a little bit fatter cushion under their butts, that’s all.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:19 pmTracy__5 Says:
“UN Charter which since we RATIFIED IT would be the highest law of the land equal to Federal law?”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
No Tracy I am not wrong. YOu are stupid. Once ratified by the Senate it becomes a treaty obligation equal to the highest law in the land that is federal law. That is plain fact. YOU dont get to redefine the Constitution just like you try to redefine words. It really isnt my fault you never know what you are talking about. IF you think following the constitution is surrendering soveriegnity. Well there really isnt anything I can say about that level of stupidity.
Article VI of the Constitution Ranks the laws
It goes
1 Constitution
2 United States lawa and treaties equal in rank
Do you EVER know what you are talking about or is regurgitating the screechmonkey of your choice all you can do?
February 7th, 2009 at 4:19 pmThe dumbest person speaking the English language
TracyFive
February 7th, 2009 at 4:20 pmReality intervened.
Conservatives don’t do very well with Reality. That must be why they seem to hate it so.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:20 pmAnother thing, Trace. Ronald Reagan died on June 5th, 2004 after a ten-year battle with Alzheimer’s disease. So one wasn’t able to ask Reagan “what would you do?” several years before his passing.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:21 pmI mean, seriously… that’s just pitiable.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:22 pmwhich, ralph, would also explain why rush baggyballs loaded himself up with hillbilly heroin for years.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:22 pmTracy__5 Says:
#119
The single most stupid nine letter word in the English lauguage….SOCIALIST.
Countries with higher indicators in health care, infrastructure and education wouldn’t agree with you.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:22 pmTracy__5 Says:
It’s no more of a subjective thing that freedom of speech which is exactly what the BS Fairness Doctrine tried to limit. It was an attempt to regulate free speech plain and simple.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
No it is NOT plain and simple it is STUPID. It is Rush Limbaugh winding you up and having you repeat his idiocy. There is NO free speech issue with the Fairness doctrine. The Supreme Court said that DIRECTLY in the Red Lion decision. The airwaves BELONG TO US. The government GIVES corporations a megaphone denied others. Along WITH that right in the agreement is an obligation they provide a public service. Saying since they were GIVEN the megaphone they have to allow both sides of an issue to be heard is in no possible way an infringement of Free speech. Only the stupidest and most brainwashed could possibly take that argument seriously.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:23 pmThe problem is those people are pushing 100. That knowledge base is passing or has past away.
I’ll take another stab at floating the Kondratieff Wave theory:
http://www.kondratieffwinter.com/kw_wave.html
Long term economic cycles based on a human life span.
The cycles do seem to coincide. Check it out.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:23 pmTracy__5 Says: 143
How would that be relevant? Who is arguing for nationalizing industries again. You really are working the stupid today. Since you are being taken apart you just decided to go for the classic Rock of stupid I see. The cold war is over. You could look it up. Well not you but someone with a normal IQ could
February 7th, 2009 at 4:26 pmTracy__5 Says:
#111
“I’m confident that my contributions here are recognized for whatever value they offer.”
Which is very little.
Leave it to a con to determine someone else’s worth instead of the government. Hey, worked with home values the last 6 years!
February 7th, 2009 at 4:26 pmthe reason why reichwing apologists get their panties in a wad and start clutching their pearls over the fairness doctrine is simple: it would introduce accountibility to his heros on the right. They would not be able to sell their stories on PUBLIC airwaves without credible sources which, of course, they cannot provide.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:27 pmUtter BS! International law trumps our laws? Wrong. You think that we should relinquish our soverignty to the thugs that run the U.N.?
Article. VI.
All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
Settled treaties supercede the use of judicial authority. Even the Supreme Court, I believe. Lawmakers cannot intercede, without amending the constitution.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:27 pmralph. That’s a good point.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:28 pmBozo the Neoclown
The reason wingnuts hate the very idea of the Fairness doctrine is they were TOLD to by Rush and he learned from the master Joseph Goebbels
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
Just replace state with Rightwing and you get the picture
February 7th, 2009 at 4:29 pmeugene, the part i find hard to digest is not matter how many times you tell assclowns (like tracy) regardless if they are a private company, they are using PUBLIC AIRWAVES.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:32 pmGood job Barfly there really isnt any way out of that. Then again when did Tracy EVER know what he was talking about. If Rush didnt tell him. He doesnt know it
February 7th, 2009 at 4:33 pmDoesn’t Tracy_5 look pretty in his little bow?
February 7th, 2009 at 4:35 pmso….tracy
February 7th, 2009 at 4:37 pmwithout using the phrase “tax cuts” explain how we can clean up the economic mess left behind by 43
What’s a counter-argument to “you’re stupid”?
“Nuh-uh”?
Whatever, Trace. As I said above, I’ve seen the level of intellect at which you operate, and I’ve accounted for that in evaluating your opinion.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:37 pmBozo The Neoclown Says:
Exactly. Also they just wont stop bringing up the REALLY stupid argument that it is a violation of free speech to have both sides heard. That is so ignorant, not to mention RULED ON DIRECTLY BY THE SUPREME COURT, that only a propagandist with no respect for his listeners could have come up with it and only the stupidest and most brainwashed could possibly repeat it.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:38 pmnot taking over the banks and the health care system
tracy – i need to know one thing, what you, as a rushpublicon, mean when you say “taking over the health care system”…
do you have health insurance coverage? blue cross, aetna, etc?
do you go to a clinic and/or hospital when necessary? exams, broken leg, appendicitis, childbirth, etc?
’cause those 2 things are different.
the health care facilities and professionals will stay the same but the insurance coverage provider will be the U.S. Government… that would be YOU… US… WE THE PEOPLE.
imagine what that huge of a pool of money – taxes, yes – will do to lower the costs and prices of health care for the whole country.
and lower health care costs will mean lower costs everywhere…
and a much higher standard of living for everyone. EVERYONE.
i just want to be sure you know that.
that’s not an opinion. it’s a fact.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:38 pmralph the wonder llama Says:
Isnt it precious when a wingnut tosses out a gratitous insult then gets all indignant when you return serve? As if his silly little personal attack demand that YOU make an intellectual and calm point by point rebuttal. The snivelling is pathetic
February 7th, 2009 at 4:40 pmosage@112
Nice!
also repugs truly want us to believe their lie that they didn’t politicize the DoJ. Yeah right.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:40 pmIt’s no more of a subjective thing that freedom of speech which is exactly what the BS Fairness Doctrine tried to limit. It was an attempt to regulate free speech plain and simple.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
On principle I am still waiting for you to explain how wage and price controls are conservative ideas.
On principle, conservatism isn’t supposed to lead to an explosion of the size of government. But then, conservatism was never a principle which could withstand the rigors of real-world politics.
As I explained, Nixon’s fiscal package included both wage and price controls, AND no concomittant freeze on interest, dividents, or profits. The total package reflected conservative values because of this specific mix. You can’t just pick out parts, and disregard the other parts that don’t fit your assertion. That’s what we mean about Rush, and the others. They just pick a sliver of the truth to amplify, while disregarding the whole picture.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:41 pmHow PRECIOUS, twacie is citing a CBO “study” that the cbo has already stated never existed. BWHWHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAH
February 7th, 2009 at 4:41 pmthe “violation of free speech” is a sham argument for these clowns. No one’s saying they can’t broadcast on PUBLIC AIRWAVES, the fairness doctrine would ensure all voices are heard.
Considering the repukies only carried what? 5 states in the presidential election, I feel safe saying their “opinions” only represent a small portion of americans.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:41 pmbackup Says:
There is no reason the internet would be covered. ANYONE can buy bandwidth and start up a website. If you dont like what TP posts you can make a website called IHATETP.Wingnut. ONLY those with gov licenses can operate on the airwaves. It is the same with newspapers. ANYONE can print up whatever they want and distrubute it so there is NO REASON to demand both sides are heard since if you want to put out your opinion nothing stops you. You CANNOT just start broadcasting and THAT is why it is treated differently.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:44 pmTracy__5 Says:
No he a backbencher sent in by those who couldn’t do the job.
Say you’re sorry for that weak rebuttal. NOW!
February 7th, 2009 at 4:44 pmIt’s no more of a subjective thing that freedom of speech which is exactly what the BS Fairness Doctrine tried to limit. It was an attempt to regulate free speech plain and simple.
The fairness doctrine is merely an attempt at giving both sides of an issue equal time. How is that regulation of free speech?
February 7th, 2009 at 4:44 pmTracy__5 Says:
#132
“Debs does his duty and rips trolls to shreds. And he’s not late; I usually find him finishing off mouthbreathers like you.”
No he a backbencher sent in by those who couldn’t do the job.
You give yourself way too much credit Trace, You make run of the mill knuckle-dragging mouthbreathing GOP hacks embarrassed.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:44 pm“I don’t expect any other country to abide by international law if the law goes against our national interests. We don’t wait around and let others decide what we will and will not do.”
so, twacie is saying we should be a rougue nation. that’s exactly how they act…fly in the face of international law.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:45 pmTracy__5 Says:
174
HA I mop the floow with YOU often enough. You are just too stupid to know when you have been pwned
February 7th, 2009 at 4:45 pmI hear crunching noises: RIP! RIP! CROSS-CUT! EERRR! HALP! HALP! EUGENEDEBS IS A BACKBREAKER! HALP!
February 7th, 2009 at 4:46 pmI don’t expect any other country to abide by international law if the law goes against our national interests.
There’s that american exceptionalism that the rest of the world hates so much. Tracy, the ugly american.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:46 pmTracy__5 Says:
“Well at least I am contributing to the economy.”
pissing and moaning for 12 hours straight on the internet ain’t “contributing” to sheeyat
February 7th, 2009 at 4:47 pmTracy__5 Says: 178
Hey MORON what part of the UN Charter was RATIFIED BY THE SENATE AND BECAME THE HIGHEST LAW OF THE LAND are you too stupid to understand?
February 7th, 2009 at 4:47 pmTracy__5 Says:
Well at least I am contributing to the economy.
If you’re contributing by maneuvering that T-square, why are we in a rut, you oh-so-wonderful engine of economic growth?
Or are you taking an opportunity to push another con myth that liberals are less productive than conservatives?
February 7th, 2009 at 4:48 pmConservatives think the economy is something for them to keep to themselves, regardless of who does the work.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:49 pmTracy__5 Says: 184
THAT is true. You are a worker. You contribute. The damage you do repeating the stupidest hivemind moronity imaginable is debateable and another story but no question you contribute
February 7th, 2009 at 4:50 pm“Or are you taking an opportunity to push another con myth that liberals are less productive than conservatives?”
I am sure that would bring both warren buffet and bill gates a deep belly guffaw.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:51 pmEugeneDebs, I think you answered your own question.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:51 pmI just breezed through the letters and find myself mystified why trolls would even remotely defend the policys that made this all happen. These delusional arguments don’t really look at the lives of average americans.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:52 pmI don’t usually talk about myself, but here’s a little background. My wife and I have our own business. We haven’t been able to take a paycheck in months. We’re barely getting by and before the crash (for comparison) I was wondering which new cars we were going to buy with cash.
We don’t count as unemployed. Were working, just not getting any money. Part timers aren’t counted and those who gave up (through no fault of their own, if there’s no jobs then there’s no jobs) aren’t counted. Also, those who are qualified for specialized fields, find that those fields aren’t hiring anymore either. Any way you look at it the numbers don’t tell the whole story, just a minute part.
We’re keeping our fingers crossed that all will be fixed or at least on the upswing within the next six months. Every small business owner I know is stretched just like we are and are hoping for the same.
Delusional, misinformed, moronic, self righteous bastards go find somewhere else to post.
Bozo, you’re just too productive educating others to be productive, you lib. ;)
February 7th, 2009 at 4:53 pmTracy__5 Says:
You MORON wingnuts think tax cuts are a cure for the common cold. They didnt do the economy much good last time. You guys are so stupid you are comitted to making the same mistakes and expecting different results. Thats why no one listens to you idiots anymore. Einstein was right the mindset that CAUSED the problem cannot reasonably be expected to solve the problem. CREATING the infrastructure brought on an economic boom. Fixing it up should help in the same way.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:54 pmMaybe we should ask Israel for help…..
“Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it.”
February 7th, 2009 at 4:55 pm- Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001.
“This is why a large chuck of this so-called stimulus bill is about 41% tax cuts”
so, twacie, it would appear the reason you’re against the stimulus bill is the majority of these tax cuts would be going to the middle class and not to exxon mobil, is that a fair summation?
February 7th, 2009 at 4:56 pmThe conservative argument that the way it limits free speech is that it waters down the message to a point where no one listens.
EugeneDebs, made a nice rebuttal above, but I’ll stick with the ThinkProgress example I used above.
Many people come here to hear a progressive message. TP does a great job of producing that message. They let non-progressives comment, but the progressive threads and the message are controlled by the producers. (Faiz an company).
Okay. What if government insisted that instead of every message here being a progressive one; every other message should be use to give equal time to the conservative argument? Someone like me would be producing every other thread.
You could make a very strong argument that kind of intervention would seriously dilute the appeal to Progressives that frequent the site. If those Progressives move on to other media or other endeavors, you could say that government has impacted the free speech of the producers of TP by boring their audience away.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:56 pmHell, we are in a depression! We have been in a depression; just RepubliCon cover for the Criminal Bush’s Depression. Bush’s numbers were all phoney; just to cover his sorry a$$. Call it petit or great, it’s a depression, the Bush Depression.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:56 pmWe had a surpluss, wingnuts said that meant we needed tax cuts then a deficit which also meant we need tax cuts.Economic expansion means we need tax cuts economic meltdown means we need tax cuts. If a black cat crosses their path you guessed it that means we need tax cuts. I just wonder if there is ANY possible scenario which wingnuts wouldnt claim mean we need another tax cut
February 7th, 2009 at 4:59 pmbackup,
February 7th, 2009 at 5:01 pmyour argument is like comparing apples to oranges. Primarily, the airwaves are public domain, the internet is not.
Just how are tax cuts going to help small businesses when their earnings are lower? If small businesses are subject to the progressive tax structure or have existing tax credits and deductions in the face of losses, their taxes are already lower.
February 7th, 2009 at 5:01 pm“I just wonder if there is ANY possible scenario which wingnuts wouldnt claim mean we need another tax cut”
yes, if it would help a democrat president. these scumbags are party first until the bitter end.
February 7th, 2009 at 5:02 pmThe conservative argument that the way it limits free speech is that it waters down the message to a point where no one listens.
Sounds counter to logic.
Person “a” makes an on-air statement, that is disputed on-air by person “b.” Person “a” gets a rebuttal, if he/she desires, and person “b” can rebut that. End of story. An assertion and one rebuttal. That’s all. The whole thing could be written-off the station’s (or networks’) monthly public service message quota, so it wouldn’t affect their profitability.
February 7th, 2009 at 5:06 pmBozo the Neoclown. This argument makes sense but doesn’t account for hugh increase in stations over the past 50 years. It also doesn’t address the fact liberal shows have been given opportunities to be heard (Air America, Ed Shultz, etc)
That argument would carry more weight if we had the scarcity issue we had 40 years ago.
There is plenty of space for the liberal voice. I just think liberal consumers prefer other media (internet, newspaper, cable news, etc)
And I’m not sure how different the internet is from airwaves.
February 7th, 2009 at 5:07 pmANY possible scenario which wingnuts wouldnt claim mean we need another tax cut
Their fervor to cut taxes ends for those making fewer than 250k. That is ‘welfare’ to them.
February 7th, 2009 at 5:08 pmbackup Says:
Conservatives dont make ANY argument that it is a free speech violation for instance THAT wasnt one. It was a questionable pragmatic argument but in no way points to how free speech would be violated. Would it be a violation of MY free speech rights if you denied me the right to put a liberal billboard in YOUR FRONT YARD? Again the internet is completely different. ANYONE CAN BUY BANDWIDTH. If you dont LIKE what TP says you can start your own website called thisiswhyTPiswrong.whatever. The airwaves are NOT like that anyone with a different viewpoint is NOT able to just start up broadcasting. There is NO FREE SPEECH ISSUE. That is not an opinion it is PLAIN FACT. Read the Red Lion decision for yourself it says so in plain language
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/redlion.html
The right of free speech of a broadcaster, the user of a sound truck, or any other individual does not embrace a right to snuff out the free speech of others.
Where there are substantially more individuals who want to broadcast than there are frequencies to allocate, it is idle to posit an unabridgeable First Amendment right to broadcast comparable to the right of every individual to speak, write, or publish. If 100 persons want broadcast licenses but there are only 10 frequencies to allocate, all of them may have the same “right” to a license; but if there is to be any effective communication by radio, only a few can be licensed and the rest must be barred from the airwaves. It would be strange if the First Amendment, aimed at protecting and furthering communications, prevented the Government from making radio communication possible by requiring licenses to broadcast and by limiting the number of licenses so as not to overcrowd the spectrum.
This has been the consistent view of the Court. Congress unquestionably has the power to grant and deny licenses and to eliminate existing stations. No one has a First Amendment right to a license or to monopolize a radio frequency; to deny a station license because “the public interest” requires it “is not a denial of free speech.”
This argument is long over. There is NO FREE SPEECH ISSUE PERIOD
February 7th, 2009 at 5:08 pmbarfly. I’m not sure that proponents of the Fair Doctrine are asking for one assertion and rebuttal a month. I was under the impression, they wanted a balance of views throughout each and every day.
February 7th, 2009 at 5:09 pmbackup,
February 7th, 2009 at 5:10 pmthe day randi rhodes is carried by as many station as rush baggyballs on public airwaves is the day i say there’s no need for the fairness doctrine.
That’s not a very compelling argument, b-cup. Usually the right wing can do better than that at finding an emotional string to pull. It limits free speech by “watering down the message”? Seriously? That’s the best you guys can do?
As others have pointed out, the internet uses private infrastructure, not the public airwaves. I didn’t need a license from the government to build a website, just an agreement with a web host and a domain name.
Broadcasting companies use the public airwaves to operate. They don’t pay any fee for that use, but they are supposed to serve the public interest for that privilege.
February 7th, 2009 at 5:10 pmbackup Says:
And I’m not sure how different the internet is from airwaves.
There are a limited number of frequencies for broadcast. Period. There is probably some limit on the number of websites that can be created on the Internet, but to all intents and purposes the limits don’t exist.
The single greatest danger to free speech in this country continues to be the centralization of media ownership. It may seem to you that there are a lot of “stations” but you couldn’t be more wrong. The number of independent broadcasters has been shrinking for decades and they have been replaced with conglomerates, most of which are themselves giant corporations or owned by giant corporations.
February 7th, 2009 at 5:11 pmAnd I’m not sure how different the internet is from airwaves.
Public service announcements.
Cable also provides C-Span, because congress mandated it.
February 7th, 2009 at 5:11 pmbackup Says:
I TOLD you how the internet is different. ANYONE CAN START A WEBSITE and make whatever rebuttal he wants. This is NOT true for the airwaves. Your scarcity argument also doesnt hold water for TWO reasons there are still ten people who would LIKE to broadcast for everyone that can get a license and two large corporations get ALL the licenses and are for the most part controlled by very FEW corporations.
February 7th, 2009 at 5:12 pmCan’t we have a new thread – this one stinks of troll poo.
February 7th, 2009 at 5:13 pmOf course, that private infrastructure that the internet uses depends on protocols and technology developed by DARPA as a means to provide secure, non-centralized communications in a time of crisis.
Huh. How about that — government investment in research and infrastructure leading to an economic engine of growth years later…
who would have thought something like that possible?
February 7th, 2009 at 5:14 pmbackup Says:
The fairness doctrine basically had two aspects that when a public issue is discussed the other side has a right to be heard and if someone is personally attacked they have a right to respond. No equal time, demands that there is a left show for every right show or anything like that just those two things. That is a bit of an oversimplification but basically that was what the fairness docrtine was
February 7th, 2009 at 5:15 pmIs it just me or is the AM dial a pretty barren place? (I know, I teed you up for that one, but I mean there seems to be a lot of empty frequencies)
There are a few liberal shows in my hometown. They just don’t do that great. Again, the progressive ideology has a lot of fans. I just think they have different places they like to get their information.
The resistance that conservatives have is based on their belief that liberals aren’t really interested in equal time. But, more interested in disabling radio as an effective medium for the right.
February 7th, 2009 at 5:16 pmAbsolutly agree Gummitch THAT is the biggest problem. I dont care one way or another about the fairness doctrine I just hate the silly free speech argument but I could easily be convinced that it would be completly unecessary if we would break up the corporate monopoly.
February 7th, 2009 at 5:17 pmbackup Says:
barfly. I’m not sure that proponents of the Fair Doctrine are asking for one assertion and rebuttal a month. I was under the impression, they wanted a balance of views throughout each and every day.
Do you really want to make that assertion?
Really? I said nothing about one a month. The monthly ad revenue they get from infomercials in the dead hours is a significant amount – and they could increase their revenue, if not having to run public service announcements. To give a few minutes during a local, or national newscast, or perhaps a special weekly segment devoted specifically to offering opposing views in exchange, seems an equitable trade-off.
February 7th, 2009 at 5:19 pmTracy__5 Says:
My GOD you are ignorant Tracy. I did no such thing. I said DIRECTLY that the argument could be made the AUMF superceded the Charter. It is debatable but we NEVER overturned the treaty obligation of the Charter that is idiocy and I absolutly NEVER made an argument that it COULDNT be overturned. Better start paying that five year old that reads the posts to you more he is letting you make a fool out of yourself again. Well constantly but here particularly. You have been wiped here. Time to remind you of the first rule of holes. It is time for you to STOP DIGGING
February 7th, 2009 at 5:21 pmI’ve got to split. But, I’m interested in the progressive take on the Fairness Doctrine. Some good arguments. I’ll try to catch the next thread. Good crowd. See ya.
February 7th, 2009 at 5:21 pmtwaaaaacie,
February 7th, 2009 at 5:23 pmthat’s all well and good but we’re talking about international LAWS not treaties. your powers to make me laugh at your ignorance never cease to amaze me.
backup Says:
The resistance that conservatives have is based on their belief that liberals aren’t really interested in equal time. But, more interested in disabling radio as an effective medium for the right.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That is a ludicrous argument for two reasons. First are you saying that your ideology is so WEAK that it cannot stand up to an opposing opinion being heard? Second how did you come to that conclusion? How did you decide what our motives are? Did it involve the I Ching or some sort of amazing mind reading powers? Here is a freebie clue for rhetoric and debate. When you start arguing the MOTIVES of others based only on assigning a venal motive it is a worthless argument. I could say that conservatives are against the fairness doctrine because they are afraid of an opposing opinion or because they are hate liberals and want us to be marginalized or that they hope to brainwash Americans and make them stupid because that is in their best interest. It is easy. I could spend all day just assigning venal motives I pull directly out of my ass to insult conservatives and claim them as my arguments. That is weak and meaningless.
February 7th, 2009 at 5:25 pmConservatives hate the fairness doctrine without even knowing what it is. Papa Rush told them it was bad, and that’s all they need to know.
February 7th, 2009 at 5:35 pmEugene. I think I said it like this:
It wasn’t meant as a weak insult. I really think that those that oppose the fairness doctrine (I’ve listened to them a lot) are more concerned with diluting the medium, than they are with being challenged by different points of view.
Again, that’s my judgement about conservatives and not about progressives.
See ya.
February 7th, 2009 at 5:36 pmAlso Tracy you UTTER MORON. Abiding by the CHARTER is not the same thing as saying we have to abide by what they say. Either you are being dishonest or you are even stupider than I thought and that is pretty hard to believe.
February 7th, 2009 at 5:38 pmbackup Says:
Whatever you MEANT it as. It is still based on assigning a venal motive that conservatives cannot POSSIBLY know or show is true. Therefore my argument is still valid.
February 7th, 2009 at 5:39 pmWho knows?
Perhaps a Fairness Doctrine is just what lackluster-performing broadcasters’ need to re-inflate their flaccid stock prices.
But it needs a jazzier name.
February 7th, 2009 at 5:40 pmTracy__5 Says:
Yeah, I am arguing for that. Or at least the healthcare INSURANCE industry. Like the REST OF THE INDUSTRIAL WORLD ALREADY DOES. That WOULDNT be a third of the economy. Just like we nationalized the pension with SS. Still wont make us a socialist country till we begin nationalizing the Oil corporations, the communications industry and on and on. As usual you HAVE. NO. POINT.
February 7th, 2009 at 5:41 pmThere are many who are arguing for the governement to manage and run the healthcare in this country, i.e. 1/3 of our economy.
The same who note there are 43 million uninsured americans. What does conservatism offer them? Most would probably endorse such a national plan, if polled.
February 7th, 2009 at 5:43 pmTracy__5 Says: 234
You are a liar and a fool Tracy. You just regurgitate what you have been programmed with more reflexivly than one of Pavlovs dogs. Ya got nothin. You havent made a cogent argument since your very first post.
February 7th, 2009 at 5:43 pmThe reason we’re heading towards a depression is because no one in our government, or news media is smart enough to understand the problem.
This new stimulus bill includes billions in tax incentives to purchase a home or a car to try and return the housing market and save the auto industry, and all the jobs that go along with both. 15,000 for a home and I believe 1,500 for a car. That’s a significant tax break and it would be a great idea except for one, teensy problem.
How are Americans supposed to avail themselves of these tax breaks for cars and homes and if they can’t get the loan to purchase them with?
What good is a tax break for buying a house if you can’t get a mortgage?
What good is a tax break for buying a car if you can’t get an auto loan?
From what I read on AP last night, the bill now has language in it that specifically removes the need for lenders and banks to lend some of the money the bill is going to give them. No requirements to lend. Just like Bush’s bill.
And how’d that work out?
We need to act like we have brains and write this bill so it actually does something. There’s some good stuff in there no doubt, but the billions in tax breaks for people to buy cars and homes is absolutely worthless without some requirements and assistance for the banks and lenders to make home and auto loans available again.
Giving tax incentives to people for buying new cars and homes in a frozen lending market is like giving hair dryers to bald people.
It’s foolishness.
February 7th, 2009 at 5:44 pmTracy__5 Says: 236
Yeah they can but since we HAVENT withdrawn from the UN CHARTER exactly why would that be relevant?
February 7th, 2009 at 5:45 pmTracy__5 Says: 241
Well Tracy great libraries could be filled exclusivly with things you dont know but do try a bit of coherence in your dribblings. There is no free speech issue inherent in the fairness doctrine PERIOD. This is not in dispute. That is all I am saying. Only brainwashed morons with no idea what they are talking about continue to repeat this ignorant zombie meme.
February 7th, 2009 at 5:49 pmPoor backy, you will try to prove a wrong by using made-up, backward thinking. your justification for causing harm to people, be it one by one such as crying fire in a crowd of unsuspected people (I suggest you do that bs in any theater and see will it will get ya. happy trails mf.hea-tah) or by killing groups/clusters of people such as self-serving invasions and killing head of states. your type of people are ridiculous and dangerous for the rest of us.
you are like the drunk driver who kills a van load of people and you make off with a broken fingernail. you look at the carnage and mayhem you caused and then cry bloody murder because of your “life-threatening” injury.
the kissing repugs’ ass party has ended.
February 7th, 2009 at 5:49 pmWhich means the U.S. can withdrawl from ANY treaty if it so chooses.
By making it the most constitutionally-difficult act to accomplish?
We could also reimpose slavery, I guess. Those chances are about the same as a successful constitutional amendment to withdraw from a treaty. Given, treaties we made with native americans often weren’t worth the paper they were written on, still that was a specific decision to not abide by the treaty, not an outright abolishment of it.
February 7th, 2009 at 5:52 pmTracy__5 Says:
This Fairness Doctrine is like telling companies, who use PUBLIC resources all of the time, that they must make a certain color widget because some minority wants it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
No it isnt that is just stupid. It is like telling trucks that drive on the Public highways that they can only be so heavy, their drivers have to have licenses and they can only drive so fast. In other words that they MUST operate within parameters that benifit THE PUBLIC.
February 7th, 2009 at 5:55 pmAs I have posted many times -
We are not coming out of this depression – it is perment.
The jobs are not coming back – ever.
It does not matter how much money the government throws at this – it is the end of the country as we know it.
Does that make you happy Republicans?
You got your wish.
February 7th, 2009 at 6:00 pmWaynebro
Tax cuts are a ruse, pretty much no matter where they are targeted. They do virutally nothing to stimulate the economy, and in many cases have a direct negative impact.
February 7th, 2009 at 6:01 pmIn China, who’s markets crashed because of Wall Street, the government did something completely different. First, the deducted the cost of all hard goods, everything from washing machines to cars by 25 to 30%, all across the board. The move was to get people to buy, keep manufacturing going and the manufacturers were compensated for the difference by the government.
Also, any person with a small business was able to go to any bank and get a $100,000. government backed loan immediately. That allowed businesses to meet their payroll and purchase supplies without fear of collapse. Since the first offer was instiuted some 4 or 5 months ago, a second go round of the 100k offer has been available.
It seems in this matter that the Chinese have a much better idea of how to handl economic catastrophe than the U.S.
No “official report” but none the less the numbers didn’t lie about the ineffectualness of the spending bill.
Well, we’ll see if this works out or not. What will your excuse be in 6 months, if the jobless rate dips, and the dow is up 300? We’re all in on this,ideologically, so it’s winner take all. The blue dogs who voted republican will pay, in that eventuality.
February 7th, 2009 at 6:04 pmDamn Tracy you have been spanked mercilessly today. Thats gonna leave a mark.
February 7th, 2009 at 6:05 pmTracy__5 Says:
My GOD you are ignorant. This is not in dispute by anyone who knows ANYTHING about the issue. There is NO FREE SPEECH ISSUE PERIOD. The fairness doctrine was cancelled for other reasons. I dont even care one way or another about it. The fact you are TOO STUPID to understand plain facts will not change reality. THERE IS NO FREE SPEECH ISSUE. The SC has ruled on this specifically and said directly there isnt. The argument is long over. For once in your life allow just a bit of reality into your life instead of brainlessly repeating what you were TOLD to believe like the moron you are.
February 7th, 2009 at 6:08 pmTracy__5 Says:
You MORON, the public doesnt demand ANYTHING advertisers demand and that is the bussiness community and they have agendas other than listeners. They have a vested interest in NOT promoting a liberal message. My GOD you are stupid and brainwashed.
February 7th, 2009 at 6:10 pmYeah, Tracy, that CBO report wobbles so badly, isn’t it like having to prop up a drunk buddy in public?
February 7th, 2009 at 6:13 pmTracy__5 Says:
You really are the stupidest poster imaginable. Performing a public service is part of their licensing obligation. We GET to tell them what that entails just like we GET to tell trucks that use highways how fast they can drive. You really are a moron.
February 7th, 2009 at 6:13 pmNo Tracy to anyone that can read. It isnt OUR fault you are so stupid you dont even HAVE self awareness
February 7th, 2009 at 6:15 pmAgain companies produce, using PUBLIC resources, what the market wants.
Um, don’t you mean private resources? Or is this some covert form of fascism?
February 7th, 2009 at 6:15 pmI love the way cons dont see any freedom other than making money. So the corporations right to make money trumps the OWNERSHIP rights of the American people. What chumps. The sacred right to make money is more important than the public good. They dont CARE if it hurts America so long as corporations make as much money as they possibly can. The public service obligation is part of their licensing agreement and they KNOW it. If they dont like it they can go into the dry cleaning business.
February 7th, 2009 at 6:17 pmWell these aren’t tax cuts I am talking about. They are tax incentives to try and save the auto industry and the housing market. The idea is buy a car, get a tax deduction. Buy a house, get a huge tax deduction. A 15,000 dollar deduction is huge, and will make a big difference for people buying homes.
It’s a great idea and I’m all for it, but until they address lending it like everything else they’re doing is moot.
Lending is the key to getting the economy moving again. Without lending nothing will return the housing market, and the millions of jobs tied to it. No lending means no home sales. No home sales means no home building. No home building means millions of layoffs from everyone to carpenters, bricklayers, electricians, painters, roofers, plumbers, (not Joe, he was already laid off) landscapers, HVAC techs, insulation workers, window installers, siding installers, and so many more I can’t name them. Then of course all the manufacturing that makes the materials and tools these jobs utilize, right down to the cashier at Home Depot where they buy them, which is why Home Depot just laid off 7000 people.
Then of course there’s the title companies, inspection firms, survey companies, mortgage brokers, real estate firms, and all the other industries that rely on the housing market. They all of course have to endure massive layoffs and those people lose their jobs.
Then of course the industries that support these industries, like the telecommunications firms that supplies their phone and data lines, the office supply firms, the janitors….
This list just goes on and on and you can trace it ALL back to the lending freeze.
Without a return of mortgage lending and auto lending then we can throw money at the problem until the cows come home, and nothing will make a significant dent.
February 7th, 2009 at 6:20 pmTracy__5 Says: 279
My GOD you are ignorant. They COULD reinstate slavery if they HAD withdrawn you would have an argument since they DIDNT once again and as usual. YOU. HAVE. NO. POINT.
February 7th, 2009 at 6:20 pmYeah the SAME countries if put in a similar situation that they could affect the outcome would do the the SAME thing.
Now you’re not making any sense.
You said:
I don’t expect any other country to abide by international law if the law goes against our national interests.
So, if it goes against OUR national interests, THEY shouldn’t go along with it? Is that your point? What about THEIR national interests? They should ignore their own safety issues, if it conflicts with OURS?
Is that your argument?
February 7th, 2009 at 6:23 pmTracy__5 Says: 286
You are so stupid it is astonishing. You really think things become true just because you say them. You do know you are a bone ignorant moron dont you? That your baseless assertions are delusional fantasies and the rantings of a complete idiot?
February 7th, 2009 at 6:31 pm-
February 7th, 2009 at 6:34 pmProve it.
Conservative principles? That is an oxymoron.
February 7th, 2009 at 6:38 pmEugene, there are some stupid trolls on this site, but Tracy isn’t one of them.
Tracist is in a class by himself. Truly.
February 7th, 2009 at 6:38 pma system based on conservative principles.
Now there’s an empty sack…
February 7th, 2009 at 6:39 pmNo Tracy you are NOT against BS. It is your stock and trade. Did you really link to some opinion piece by a nobody that calls himself soapbartender on a rightwing website as if it made some kind of point discernable only to the terminally brainwashed and ignorant?
February 7th, 2009 at 6:44 pmT5: I am against BS like this that was and still in this bill.
Without sourcing I can’t validate that these things are in the bill.
February 7th, 2009 at 6:50 pmHi Waynebro
I see what you mean. I was thinking tax cuts as they’ve been handed out in the past. I agree the tax cut is generous, but with the economy sinking and aprox. 550,000 layoffs a month, where are the people who are supposed to be buying the new cars and homes? There seem to be fewer and fewer and I just don’t think the tax cut will make that much of a difference.
February 7th, 2009 at 6:53 pmIf we followed China’s example, we wouldn’t have the layoffs, production would be nominally steady, and all of the people you mentioned would still have good paying jobs.
In all, I don’t disagree with you. I just think there’s a better way to do it.
Tracy__5 Says:
No its not MORON. I said the argument could be made not that it is cut and dried besides I didnt make the original argument it IS illegal by international law that is clear. It IS illegal by the Nurember precedent that WE set after WW2. Flat out. Richard Perle ADMITTED it was a violation of international law. IF you are saying that doesnt matter or we SHOULD violate international law that is a completely different argument and it was a CLEAR violation of that.
February 7th, 2009 at 6:55 pmTracy__5 Says:
“that’s all well and good but we’re talking about international LAWS not treaties.”
Treaties are equal to laws as law according Debs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Actually according to the CONSTITUTION you moron. You didnt have a point. HE is saying they were TALKING about international law not TALKING about treaties. Also treaties are NATIONAL not international law. You are so stupid I dont know how you remember to breathe
February 7th, 2009 at 6:57 pmTracy__5 Says:
You have already MADE that stupid argument and I already SHREDDED it. You do know you are astonishingly stupid right? It isnt telling them what product they produce they are telling them they must operate in a way that benifits the public which they CAN DO. Just like they can tell trucks how fast they can drive and that they must operate safely and maintain their trucks to safety standards. I cant imagine hoow stupid you have to be not to get this.
February 7th, 2009 at 7:00 pmOk Ms. Teen South Carolina , lets revisit your ‘logic’
Then your BS argument that the slavery was was illegal is very much mute considering Congress (in 1790) overwhelmingly for it.
once again…
Then your BS argument that the Denying womem the right to vote was was illegal is very much mute considering Congress (in 1890) overwhelmingly for it.
February 7th, 2009 at 7:00 pmTracy__5 Says: 302
Are you SERIOUS? Are you REALLY that stupid? WE helped write the Charter it has specific terms that have to be adhered to. The ones we HELPED WRITE and agree with. Are you really asking how that is different from the General Assembly or Head of the UN just coming up with something and telling us to do it? REALLY? Are you really asking how that is different? Please it is well past time you stopped digging you are embarassing yourself and our entire species with this level of ignorance
February 7th, 2009 at 7:04 pmTracy__5 Says:
Spoken like a true moron. Does the government running the military and defense dept which several million people make us socialist? You are too stupid to be believed. You dont really have any idea what you are talking about and just spout whatever stupid idiocy floats to the top of that sump you have in place of a brain dont you? Again the medical INDUSTRY would not have to be nationalized just the insurance part replace by a federal agency.
February 7th, 2009 at 7:10 pmTracy__5 Says:
306
Then gave us your delusional and stupid take on what you heard which has no actual relationship to reality
February 7th, 2009 at 7:12 pmI find it alarming that there are morons stupid enough to support the tried, proven to be failed policies of the GOP. Are these morons for real? I am old enough to have lived through Ronnie Reagan and all since him and I can tell you that Ronnie was a failure just like Daddy Shrub and Baby Shrub. Their sick robber baron tax cuts for the wealthy and stealing from the middle class along with deregulation of financial institutions and energy corporations has been the downfall of the world economy. If they have (R) after their name, they should be locked up and put away for a long time. Even rethuglicans know that free markets do not correct themselves. Read “The Predator State”, James K. Galbraith.
February 7th, 2009 at 7:12 pmYou’re missing my point it seems.
I’m not pushing the tax incentives for purchasing new cars and homes. I’m not against it, it’s an ok idea. But they are not the focus of my comments.
I’m talking about lending.
No lending, no home buying, no home selling, no home building, and everyone gets laid off.
Same in the auto industry.
We talk about this like its rocket science, mostly because the so called “experts” want us to. That’s how they keep a job. Notice none of their advice ever helps. They just give it and then preach doom and gloom when it doesn’t pan out.
This isn’t complicated however. When lending froze last October we took a problem with a few mortgage companies (like Countrywide who was over divested in the sub prime market) and made it a global problem. Sure there’s the problem with US Sub Prime mortgages being overly bundled into securities, but that was a manageable problem. We could have bailed out the banks who were vested in these securities, reintroduced some regulatory oversight to ensure a proper ratio of Sub Prime to Prime in securities and been done with it. Sure it would have cost us, but nothing like what its costing now.
We blew it. Congress blew it.
They sold Americans a bill of goods and claimed the problem was “people not paying their mortgages”. So they froze lending. They frightened lenders into freezing lending and that created a whole new, much much larger problem.
Because when lending froze, so did the housing and auto industries, two industries critical to our economic stability, with the housing industry being tied to so many industries out there in one way or another.
When we shut down lending, we ensured economic collapse, and no one seems to get that. I feel like I’m in one of those twilight Zone episodes where no one knows whats going on but me, and no one seems to care.
I don’t know why this concept is so elusive but it is. No one seems to understand. No one seems to get it. Without lending there is no return of the economy. Its not my opinion. Its a fact staring us all straight in the face. We need stimulus spending. The democrats are 100 percent right about that. Spending is the answer, but no one seems to know where we need to focus that spending.
We need to focus it on lending. Without lending we’re just staving off the inevitable, and throwing good money after bad.
Target the lending, then we’ll see stimulus.
February 7th, 2009 at 7:13 pmTracy__5 Says: 309
You are too stupid to be believed it is NOT an opinion it is the RULING OF THE SUPREME COURT YOU INSUFFERABLE MORON. I already linked to the Red Lion decision that says so directly. The fact you are just too stupid to recognize reality doesnt CHANGE reality. Also the fairness doctrine never called for equal time you moron. You just dont know anything except the delusions hateradio screechmonkeys have programmed you with. It calls for the other side of public policy issues to be heard and for those attacked to have a chance to respond. NO WHERE is there an equal time obligation. My GOD you are ignorant beyond belief.
February 7th, 2009 at 7:14 pmTracy__5 Says:
#238
I have actually listened to Air America radio.
And yet you still haven’t learned anything. Sucks to be you.
February 7th, 2009 at 7:15 pmTracy__5 Says: 312
You are really stupid EVERYWHERE you ignorant troll
February 7th, 2009 at 7:16 pmAt first I was like – cool a troll thread, I’ll read all the way through and then respond point by point!
But then I was like – this is just some idiot repeating the same dogmatic insanity that got us into this mess in the first place. There’s really no point, as their position is chiseled in stone no matter what facts or logic are in effect at the moment.
Socialism =/= any greater-than-zero government spending. And Capitalism =/= zero government spending. There’s obviously an appropriate ratio depending on the situation, and appropriate types of spending depending on the current need. Figuring that out is called management.
“Economic conservatism” has become a mere cult of absolutism.
February 7th, 2009 at 7:19 pmTracy__5 Says:
#246
“Or it’s like telling them that they can sell faulty products just because some business executive wants a personal tax break.”
You are really late here pussy man.
#246 is barfly, and your cut-and-paste doesn’t match any part of his comment. Whatever the case, the irony of you blabbing “You are really late here pussy man” at post #312 responding to comment #246, 66 comments earlier, is lost on you.
February 7th, 2009 at 7:21 pmExactly ElBruce a cult where free market absolutism is religious dogma given by GOD not a man made construct the efficacy of which needs to be supported with evidence or at least logic. It is the only way because they say so
February 7th, 2009 at 7:24 pmTracy__5 Says: 317
NO the public airwaves are OURS like the highways and those purveyers of opinion are operaters like trucks. Just because YOU say it doesnt hurt America doesnt mean that isnt true but the bottom line is they are making THEIR MONEY by using OUR RESOURCE for free. That brings with it, not in dispute, by the very agreement they agree to when getting a license a public service obligation and it is a DEMOCRATIC DECISION what that means. I dont care how it shakes out but saying there is some free speech issue and we have no right to the decision is plainly STUPID. If they dont LIKE the public service requirement they can open a McDonalds.
February 7th, 2009 at 7:28 pmWaynebro
Isn’t it amazing we’re having a normal exchange amist everything else. True, what can happen without lending? However, didn’t we just give 350B to banks and lending institutions without any real commitment from them for making loans? Isn’t there another 350B that’s supposed to go to the same institutions? How have they spent it, perks, parties, takeovers, stadium naming rights, jet purchases, aquistitions etc… If the economy thrives through loans, then what are these guys doing?
February 7th, 2009 at 7:32 pmMoney doesn’t really flow down. Those that have it tend to keep it. Those that don’t have it will spend if it’s available. I just think the fundamental way in which our government is trying to fix the crisis is wrong.
Let’s say I’m a homebuilder. I’ve purchased 10 acres of land (which I was able to gt a loan on) that I’m going to employ the apropriate number of people to build 30 homes. Now let’s say the homes are complete and the banks are willing to make loans. With a foreclosure rate that hasn’t been seen since prior to the great depression and the jobless rate what it is. How many of those homes would you reasonably expect to sell?
I just think we are fundamentally wrong on how we’re attempting to fix the economy. I don’t believe tax breaks will do it. I think the economy can be stimulated only by works programs, get people working, getting a paycheck, purchasing again, manufacturing will rise on everything from telephones to homes because people will be looking to buy again.
Tracy__5 Says: 322
That is YOUR stupid, brainwashed and frankly ignorant take on it. Even IF you were right instead of delusional and stupid it is irrelvant to the point. ADVERTISING makes the decision NOT the people. MSNBC dropped Donahue when he had the HIGHEST RATED PROGRAM ON THEIR NETWORK. So pretending that ratings are what determines everthing is just ignorant and THAT is the claim you made. To YOU perhaps the idea is that we are slaves to bussiness and we are FORCED to be subject to it with no democratic limitations but that is just your ignorance and fascism talking. No one with a brain is listening. The liberal message sure has won the last two elections so keep marginalizing yourself with your abject stupidity until you get the massive doses of anti-psychotics you so desperatly need.
February 7th, 2009 at 7:33 pmTracy 5 is like a 4 year-old throwing a temper tantrum. You can’t reason with then either, but they do have the excuse of being 4 years-old.
Tracy likes to wallow in his stupidity, he really enjoys his willful ignorance. Some people are just morons who parrot the stupidity of Rush and Hannity. Example number 5 Tracy_5. Tracy’s previous 4 incarnations are examples 1 – 4.
February 7th, 2009 at 7:38 pmTracy__5 Says: 325
You can repeat that incredibly stupid meme another forty of fifty times if you want. It wont make any more sense than the first time. You really are a moron. The fairness doctrine doesnt say they must produce so many of this type or that type of program so you are just being your usual stupid self. I am not claiming the FD is the law right now so as usual you have no point. What I am saying is we have the RIGHT to demand this and it is NOT IN ANY WAY a free speech issue which as I pointed out several times has been ajudicated by the Supreme Court and they said DIRECTLY in the decision. Just because you are too stupid to see reality will not CHANGE reality. As for this
The government can’t tell companies WHAT products they must produce.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
It is astonishingly stupid. They arent telling them WHAT to produce only giving guidelines about the use of OUR RESOURCE you simpering baboon.
February 7th, 2009 at 7:38 pmTracy you are embarassingly stupid. You just keep making the same argument over and over. It gets destroyed and you just make it again. You ignore clear facts and reality and make the same stupid already debunked argument again. Have some self respect man you have been spanked mercilessly. Give it up
February 7th, 2009 at 7:42 pmTracy__5 Says: 335
I cant believe how stupid you are. Yes the radio progams are the product and no one is telling them what shows to put on ONLY that if a public policy is talked about the other side has a right to be heard and if someone is attacked they have a right to respond. They arent saying they have to put on a liberal show for every conservative show or they have to put on comedy shows for ever news show. You think YOU can decide what the public service obligation is but you CANT it is a DEMOCRATIC decision. THERE IS NO FREE SPEECH ISSUE. You are just too stupid to understand anything so once again you repeat an argument already debunked more than once and it HAS already been debunked as anyone who can read can see. Just because YOU are too stupid to understand that doesnt mean it isnt clear as a bell.
February 7th, 2009 at 7:54 pmI’m done trying to beat Q-tips into anvils. You are just a moron Tracy. You are stupid. The points are clear. The Supreme Court has ruled and you have been so thorougly brainwashed no reality can penetrate your thick skull. Revel in your stupidity. Reality will remain unaffected.
February 7th, 2009 at 7:57 pmRepresentative democracy and socialism are NOT mutually exclusive. The dogmatic defense of laissez(sp?) faire capitalism is NOT the defense of representative democracy.
February 7th, 2009 at 7:57 pmTracy__5 Says: 338
YOUR opinion is IRRELEVANT. Congress hasnt repealed the Charter. My GOD I cant believe you are so stupid you think you are making arguments instead of thrashing around like a drowning man without a single clue. We RATFIED THE CHARTER. We are still BOUND by the Charter except for any specific instances when they were superceded by later federal law you incredibly ignorant piece of garbage
February 7th, 2009 at 7:59 pmYes we did. And that’s what I’m condemning.
This stimulus plan was originally supposed to have oversight and requirements for the banks and financial institutions that received funds.
But last night AP reported that the new “trimmed down” bill did not include any requirements for the banks and financial institutions to lend.
Which means that just like with Bush’s 350 billion we handed out to the banks where they hoarded the money and or bought up failed institutions and corporations to use as tax shelters, we are going to hand the banks and financial institutions more money without any requirement that they actually use the money to stimulate the economy.
This is nonsense, and they need to fix it.
February 7th, 2009 at 8:22 pmYes! keep saying that, LTdan! Take no prisoners and blame everyone else! Keep typing DannyBoy… keep passing the buck.
Your going to do some great things for the GOP… I can just tell.
February 7th, 2009 at 8:35 pmHi LTdan
February 7th, 2009 at 8:35 pmWell none, because mortgage lending is frozen.
As for the foreclosure rate though, its not as bad as people think, or at least thought. Even Realty Trac, the company that mysteriously came into existence in 2005 and started spouting doom and gloom, admits that MOST US mortgages are fine. The higher default rate came in the sub prime market and was actually expected. When the republicans opened up the Sub Prime markets they were actually taking advice from some fairly smart people, who told them to NOT deregulate, or disaster would follow.
So, they opened up the sub prime market AND deregulated.
Which meant that they were letting banks and lending institutions make more loans but with less oversight.
A recipe for disaster.
Regulation and oversight meant the government held lenders accountable for the loans they wrote. Lenders were compelled to keep sufficient capital and assets to offset default rates.
If they had opened up the sub prime market but left regulation intact, then lenders would have been required to retain sufficient portions of the increased capital they were getting for the higher interest sub prime loans, to offset the naturally higher default rates given the higher risk loans being made.
Instead however with the lack of federal oversight, lenders left to their own internal predictions naturally underestimated their default rates and instead of putting enough of their profits aside to cover the increased defaults coming down the pike, they squandered their increased profits and when the additional default figures started coming in, they discovered they were bankrupt.
First big one was Countrywide last fall. And instead of reacting appropriately with caution and a soft touch, congress started immediately threatening lenders which in turn naturally caused lenders to freeze their lending, which in turn created the mass job losses we are seeing today in the housing and auto industry. In fact, it was Congress that created the current auto industry collapse with that nonsense. Oh sure the 3 major auto manufacturers were already doing poorly, cranking out fuel guzzlers and ecological disaster vehicles. But they were squeezing buy. Enough to keep their workers working.
But when congress caused a panic and froze lending, suddenly auto loans were unavailable, meaning suddenly no could buy their cars because no one could get a loan to buy them with.
Who has 25,000 lying around for a new Mini Van?
Car sales require loans the same way home sales require loans. They’re both big ticket items. The one bigger than the other of course, but still both requiring lending for the average American to purchase one.
So when the congress panicked and created a lending freeze, they created a much more massive disaster than the one we were currently facing at the time.
Of course all that’s moot now because we’re there, and now they need to fix it. Yet for some reason they want to talk about everything under the sun other than lending. Its like they either don’t have a clue, or don’t want the economy to return. I’m betting on the ‘don’t have a clue’ option until there’s evidence of something else.
February 7th, 2009 at 8:44 pmFebruary 7th, 2009 at 8:46 pm
Will crash?
You mean did crash.
On Bush’s watch.
And it wasn’t President Clinton or President Obama who deregulated, which is the key factor that got us here.
February 7th, 2009 at 8:53 pmI’m not really sure what the argument is about airwaves, because you people aren’t fully quoting. I’m just gonna say I’m for free speech, publicly owned airwaves or no. I’m aware this may put me on Tracy__5’s side of that argument, and I’m somehow OK with that.
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EugeneDebs Says:
Exactly ElBruce a cult where free market absolutism is religious dogma given by GOD not a man made construct the efficacy of which needs to be supported with evidence or at least logic. It is the only way because they say so
Well, the old Soviet Commies used to be absolutists too, except the other way. Which is why the free market absolutists point at their failures (which was actually a mixed bag, they had some successes too) to justify their own absolutism. What they fail to realize is that absolutism is the problem. There is no stable government on Earth, and probably never has been that had 0% government involvement or intervention in its nation’s economy.
Mind you, one shouldn’t have an expansive view of government involvement or intervention. Government should only mess with the economy to the degree that it can show a positive return on that investment. That is, which delivers a result that there’s broad consensus on as being a public good.
But wingnuts project. So they figure if they’re absolutists, and we disagree with them, then we must be absolutists in the opposite direction. They can’t see the middle.
BTW, let’s fix this terminology battle once and for all: “socialism” is the degree to which the government gets involved or intervenes in its nation’s economy. So one nation might be 26% Socialist, another 54% Socialist. But no government just “is Socialist,” or “is not Socialist.” As an “ism” it’s the study and practice of manipulating social and/or economic factors to meet some goal in the public interest – hence the name. It only becomes “Communism” at the point that the government acquires ownership of the means of production for all necessary industries. There, that’s settled.
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Tracy__5 Says:
And the world has changed quite a bit since it was written. In my opinion the entire charter needs to be revised to reflect today’s global political environment.
Interesting. Like what should be revised? Say that Islam is bad?
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LTdan Says:
Thanks to clinton and now obama the economy will crash again, bush tried to save us but the idiot libs in congress just wouldnt budge. History sure does repeat itself.
Nope, just crashed once. The question is how long it’ll take Obama to fix it.
And it’s waaay too late to blame Clinton any more. Give up on that.
I now realize that your “bush tried to save us” meme is predicated entirely on the notion that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac themselves were the sole causes of the entire mortgage and financial industry meltdown. That all the other banks, mortgage companies, insurance companies, and financial companies were innocently backstabbed by those two entities. Never mind the overvaluation of CDS’s and the interlinking webs of CDS protection, all with zero transparency, perfect ratings and something like a 50,000% capitalization over the real value of the underlying funds. It was all just Fannie and Freddie. Yeah.
February 7th, 2009 at 8:55 pmThe founders of this nation assumed that the people who report the news would keep the government honest by exposing any perfidy to an outraged citizenship. That’s why freedom of the press is enshrined in the first ammendment. The reporters job was to ferret out the news and report it. All of it regardless of the consequences. If they did a good job and were good businessmen, they made a profit.
Fast forward to the 21st century. Things have changed. The news is now controlled by 5 or 6 huge corporations each of which has its fingers in too many pies to list here. Instead of haveing the goal of reporting the news and making a profit, their goal is to make a profit and massage the news to make that happen.
They also realize that they have almost total control over information so they can create their own reality. They can make it happen and people will be too dumb to realize it.
They figure, the Republican party will cover by spreading the myth of the liberal media. We will try to seem neutral. After all how many people will notice that for every Democrat we interview on the Obama stimulus package, we will interview TWO Republicans (even though Dems outnumber Pubs by almost 2 to 1.)
Nobody noticed that 95% of the “experts” we interviewed during the run up to the Iraq disaster were pro-war.
By focussing only on what is important to the corporations controlling the news and their customers, the media control out agenda.
February 7th, 2009 at 9:21 pmTracy__5 Says:
And my argument has always been that we can repeal it at ANY time.
Ah, wingnuts. Just how the fix for the mess caused by tax cuts is more tax cuts, the fix for the mess caused by unilateralism is more unilateralism…
No.
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Rusticus Says:
The news is now controlled by 5 or 6 huge corporations each of which has its fingers in too many pies to list here. Instead of haveing the goal of reporting the news and making a profit, their goal is to make a profit and massage the news to make that happen.
Exactly. The problem isn’t the message, the problem is that antitrust laws have not been enforced, particularly the extra ones put in place to prevent media conglomeratization.
February 7th, 2009 at 9:30 pmCreating depressions is one thing the GOP has been successful at over the years. The upside is it keeps them out of the majority for about forty years at a time. The idea that there are morons who believe their way works scares the hell out of me. I guess home schooling dosn’t work for economics.
February 7th, 2009 at 9:37 pmOh, there are… and some not so daft. It amazes me daily.
February 7th, 2009 at 9:48 pm” The whole fabric of society will go to wrack if we really lay hands of reform on our rotten institutions. From top to bottom the whole system is a fraud, all of us know it, laborers and capitalists alike, and all of us are consenting parties to it.”– Henry Adams, American historian, 1838-1918
February 7th, 2009 at 9:48 pmIt’s Time to lay on hands and reform the rotten institutions.
February 7th, 2009 at 9:54 pmI don’t care what the Republicans say. It’s time to go back to the days of 90%-tax brackets for the super rich. They’ll still have plenty enough money to live on afterwards, and I couldn’t care less if they had to sell one of their personal islands to pay their tax bills.
February 7th, 2009 at 10:10 pmI’m a simple man. Economics is intimidating. But my gut tells me that it’s not possible to have an economy that runs without goverment interventiobn, because it’s by the authority of the government that the very tools of Commerce, the money, is printed and used. The government determines the value of the currency. Of course they have to have a say in how its used. (They already do in ways many conservatives approve. You can’t be caught carrying too much money around, or they might assume that you were going to buy druges with it, or that you just sold drugs to get it.)
So if the government decides that nation’s best interests, economic or otherwise, are served when money is not allowed to be accumulated in too few hands, they have a right to step in and take it away and redistribute it to get the economy moving again. Too bad if “free marketers” don’t like that, because there is no such thing as a “free market”. And good thing, too, because free markets do not operate in the best interest of the people.
February 7th, 2009 at 10:18 pmWhen a country signs on to an international treaty that gives up some of their sovereignty, they do so willingly and with full knowledge that the international agency might tell them they are wrong. But the members of that organization do that so that the international agency will tell other members when they are wrong, too. To say that the international body should not be allowed to impugn on a nation’s sovereignty is to defeat the purpose of having a treaty.
February 7th, 2009 at 10:20 pmTracy__5 Says:
#365
“They figure, the Republican party will cover by spreading the myth of the liberal media.”
During this last election it was no myth that ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN and especially MSNBC were all in the tank for Obama.
February 7th, 2009 at 10:23 pm
Don’t try to flatter me, Tracy. You adjectives about what I said are misguided and founded in falsehoods about “the beneveolence” of the Free Market system.
February 7th, 2009 at 10:38 pmBy reading the comments here it really reveals that most people are clueless when it comes to economics in general and have absolutely no idea of the causes of our current economical situation. It’s really disappointing that the American public is this ignorant of our current situation, especially here where one would expect those participating to be somewhat aware of what is going on.
February 7th, 2009 at 10:38 pmWhat you saw was a reflection of your own ass in the rearview window… trace. Are you telling me that those I have known for years aren’t what they say they are?
Do you really believe you have that gift? Has your arrogance misguided your own ability to look past your own nose?
I thought that’s what you banked your movement upon… the ability to judge, therefor guide the rest of us towards a better future.
How the heck can you do that when you can’t even see your own present? Steeped in your bad tea, trace? You’re a bubbleboy… bouncing about while the rest of the world moves on. Get to moving forward… or die. Either way, the rest of us advance.
February 7th, 2009 at 10:38 pmThat’s wonderful… any ideas on how to right the ship, Ishmael.
February 7th, 2009 at 10:40 pmLTdan Says:
Take a hike you ignorant cowardly hit and run troll. We already know you are a moron and you dont have anything else to offer. Just spouting your ignorance is boring
February 7th, 2009 at 10:44 pmBy reading the comments here it really reveals that most people are clueless when it comes to economics in general and have absolutely no idea of the causes of our current economical situation.
The cause of the problems has been a lack of regulation and oversight on Wall Street, not Fannie and Freddie, as the Republicans have been claiming.
It’s really disappointing that the American public is this ignorant of our current situation, especially here where one would expect those participating to be somewhat aware of what is going on.
Well, then tell the Republicans to stop lying, and stop making it seem like the entire $780-$910 billion dollars is being spent on little things that they have a morality problem with (despite our morality problems with their ideas.)
February 7th, 2009 at 10:45 pmTracy__5 Says:
“…they have a right to step in and take it away and redistribute it to get the economy moving again. ”
And telling companies what they must do gets the economy moving again how?
You’re putting words in my mouth. Who said anything about “telling companies what they must do”? I do support regulating capitalism, as requried by the Constitution.
“And good thing, too, because free markets do not operate in the best interest of the people.”
The operate in the interest of the people far better than an single entity like a government could.
No, they don’t. They operate in the best financial interests of their shareholders, except when their ripping off the shareholders by enriching themselves. You do realize that Boards of Directors set their own salaries, and they are the ones who decided they were “worth” 350 or more times what they pay their average workers?
February 7th, 2009 at 10:52 pm“out of spite, for Bush” ???
Thanks for that, bubbleboy! That’s what I’m going to tell them… they’ll appreciate that. I love the fact that you’re so arrogant, and so will they.
Dang, guy… you’re dumber than I thought.
Thanks!!!
February 7th, 2009 at 10:53 pmA. Schneider Says:
The business of business is to maximize profits only the most severly brainwashed could possibly think that is never in conflict with the interests of society. It is just religious dogma for cons. They think it was handed down by GOD and that is the end of it.
February 7th, 2009 at 10:57 pmDo you think that a brain surgeon should be paid a higher salary than someone working as a manager of a Taco Bell? If so why?
Can the brain surgeon also manage a Taco Bell? It’s not as easy as it looks. Short answer, no, he shouldn’t get paid more. He doesn’t help as many people in a single day. My reasons? Much too lengthy to post here, but, in general, I do not believe that healthcare should be a for-profit industry, subject to the whims of the free market.
February 7th, 2009 at 10:59 pmEugeneDebs,
We are also dealing with a mindset (oftentimes) that equates finacial worth with social worth. They believe that if you are making a lot of money, you must be doing something “good”, because they believe that the free market operates strictly according to economic principles, and not according to the greed of humans, which conservatives believe are inherenetly evil and, thus, shouldn’t be trusted in government. Why they should be trusted to run corporations is beyond me, as it makes no sense at all.
February 7th, 2009 at 11:03 pmWayne A. Schneider Says:
I don’t care what the Republicans say. It’s time to go back to the days of 90%-tax brackets for the super rich.
I think that might be a bit much. I’d settle for, say, trying out 50% and closing loopholes. In fact, CEO of Netflix was saying the same thing this morning. It’s kinda like how Bill Gates’ dad was campaigning for the reinstatement of the estate tax.
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Tracy__5 Says:
Which means passing resonable regulations and laws that help the private sector provide for the public’s needs that are not specifically called out in the Constitution. Promoting the general welfare is a key term and the governement directly becoming the manager of an industry like healthcare is not “promoting the general welfare”.
I agree with about 70% of that statement, so I think we’re getting somewhere.
It is a case of promiting the general welfare if the private industry as key to what “human welfare” means as health, and if that industry is failing us. The problem with the for-profit health care industry in particular is that the incentive for providers is to give less care to patients, because that’s cheaper. And to charge more for it. Those are the opposite of the behaviors we want.
Health care isn’t like something you buy off a shelf, where you compare some different ones, then pick one and your need is met. People typically don’t have health care needs until after they’re locked in with a provider. Also, doing it through employers takes the choice out of individuals’ hands entirely. Then there are “in-network” networks of which doctors have contracts with which insurance companies, such that between consumers, insurers, hospitals and doctors, there’s minimal fluidity because everyone’s locked into various contracts, which can’t be rapidly changed.
But unlike many countries (including England) I don’t think we should nationalize providing health care, just insuring it. There’s a significant difference. Doctors and hospitals would still be independent agencies rather than government employees. everybody. Rich people would still be free to add supplemental insurance to the basic plan. However, each person would be a member of the largest possible insurance pool, which actually increases efficiency. After all, the entire idea behind insurance is that the larger the pool of people you’re grouped with, the lower the costs are for each person. So having more companies competing, each with their own pool actually works against efficiency in this particular case.
Basically, I’m saying health care is a special kind of case, and it has factors that make it function poorly in a competitive environment, in terms of what it provides the consumer for what it costs the consumer.
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This article flies in the face of many country’s soverignty and in many cases their own constitution especially when it comes to an individual nations national security. Needs to be reworded as not to give the U.N. Security Council the authority to determine what another member nation deems a threat to their national security.
I think there should be a common standard for what qualifies as an acceptable threat before a nation invades another. There must be some standard by which an international body can claim that a given invasion was justified or not. Should Iraq have been allowed to invade Kuwait? Hitler claimed he was making a preventive attack when he invaded Poland.
The entire point of the U.N. is to create a common consensus of what behaviors are acceptable or unacceptable. That doesn’t actually prevent a country from doing anything, but it can severely affect its popularity. We invaded Iraq twice in the past two decades; the first time, it had been deemed appropriate under U.N. guidelines, the second time it was not. In neither case did they actually do anything to stop us. But it made a big difference in our diplomatic capability thereafter. That’s perfectly reasonable, and not a violation of anyone’s sovereignty (except for the invaded party).
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Tracy__5 Says:
It’s called following the U.S. Consitution not the “World Constitution”.
Nowhere in the U.S. Constitution does it say we can’t cooperate with other governments or international bodies, nor write laws that mirror those agreements.
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imaxkr Says:
By reading the comments here it really reveals that most people are clueless when it comes to economics in general and have absolutely no idea of the causes of our current economical situation…
“Everybody here sucks.”
OK, so what’s your opinion on the current “economical” situation?
February 7th, 2009 at 11:03 pmOkay, ElBruce. We won’t go to 90% this year, but we do need to start raising tax rates on the wealthiest among us. I wnoder why they keep pushing tax cuts? We cut their taxes (way too much in most people’s opinions, even Bush’s), and we still ended up in this economic mess. Why would cutting taxes even more help get us out of it? Are Republicans trying to say that the economic crisis was caused by over-taxation? Because that would be pretty stupid.
February 7th, 2009 at 11:10 pm… or they will move on. What say you, Trace?
February 7th, 2009 at 11:15 pm“…they have a right to step in and take it away and redistribute it to get the economy moving again.”
…well considering the private sector is the economy, not the government, this redistribution of capital thru mandated infrastructure spending is basically telling companies what to produce.
Again, you’re reading things into this that I did not say, and incorrectly making inferences about what I said. I did not bring up infrastructure, you did. The economy can also be stimulated a great deal by paying out more in food stamps and unemployment benefits. The rich can afford to pay for that and not be any less well off than they are now.
Most small businesses and corporations do operate in a way that responds to the demands of the consumers. To operate in the best interest of their shareholders is to perform and sell products to the consumer. The consumer benefits directly from companies who produce quality and/or low cost products. If the don’t make sales their profits go down and their shareholders start to demand they do.
Again, I disagree with the premise of your theory. There are flaws to the thinking of what makes consumers buy what they buy. If this is true: “The consumer benefits directly from companies who produce quality and/or low cost products.”, then please explain what “benefit” to consumers the Pet Rock fad had? Or Mood Rings? These products weren’t the work of some corporation trying to benefit mankind, they were the work of corporations trying to make a buck for their own shareholders’ benefit, not the public’s. And that is the flaw in thinking that the free market will solve our problems, when they are often the cause of our problems. Because they are run by human beings who are (according to the basis of your philosophy) evil.
February 7th, 2009 at 11:21 pmAt this point in time there is no easy answer to the question of ‘any ideas on how to right the ship’.
The first thing would have to be to understand the underlying reasons that got us here in the first place. And to do that we have to look back to at least the 1970s. And analyze, globally, both free market and government actions and policies but in this forum there is not time nor space to in depth analysis. Suffice it to says the ‘mortgage crisis’ was just a mere minor catalyst.(as of Nov 08, less that 5% of mortgages were more than 60 days in default) Artificially low interest rates through out the 1990s and this decade, poor restraint on government spending, and a sense of ‘entitlement’ among the populace all contributing factors as well as many others.
We must not repeat the past mistakes of the late 1890s, the 1930s or the 1990s in Japan.(most of these we are currently repeating or are in the process of repeating)
At this point we face some tough choices, none that are very appealing.
It appears that the current course of action our government is taking will lessen the depth of the economic decline but will extend any true recovery for a dozen years or more. We would still face the looming insolvency of the social security and medicare systems have not even been discussed.(it has been estimated, in 2007, that payroll taxes must be tripled and obligated benefits reduced by half immediately to forestall a collapse of the system) And our national debt would approach $20 trillion. At some point just the interest on that debt will become untenable. And we will face the collapse of our society as we know it.
Another option would be to take it the teeth now, the sharp decline of the economy in the short run would allow for a much quicker return to ‘normalcy’ along with a more viable situation going forward.
Of course our politicians will choose the most politically palatable course of action though it may not be the best for the country in the long run.
February 7th, 2009 at 11:27 pmI’ll tell you what, Tracy. I would rather be treated by a doctor who went into medicine because he or she cared about making people healthier, than I would to a doctor who went into medicine strictly for the money. Medicine does not need people who are only motivated by money. Healthcare should be driven by altruism, not capitalism. If your brain surgeon doesn’t care if I live or die just because I can’t pay his fee, then he has no business practicing medicine.
February 7th, 2009 at 11:30 pmNo one is talking about the government managing health care, except you Tracy.
February 7th, 2009 at 11:49 pmKick ass, Wayne!!
February 7th, 2009 at 11:59 pmWayne A. Schneider Says:
I wnoder why they keep pushing tax cuts? We cut their taxes (way too much in most people’s opinions, even Bush’s), and we still ended up in this economic mess. Why would cutting taxes even more help get us out of it? Are Republicans trying to say that the economic crisis was caused by over-taxation?
Because the only consistent principle of the Republican Party, the one that explains every side they take on every issue, is whatever benefits the wealthiest 1% of the nation. That’s it. That’s all they do.
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Tracy__5 Says:
If he has the leadership qualities and people skills then yes I sure hope so or he wouldn’t be a brain suregon.
OK, I do think that brain surgeons should make more than Taco Bell managers, so I don’t need to be injecting myself in here, but – have you ever met a brain surgeon? Leadership qualities and people skills are two things they do not have! However, they are good at operating on brains.
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Tracy__5 Says:
Yes and that can happen without the government being the one who dictates who is in the insurance pool. Like you said the answer is not letting the government being the insurer. I mean look at the way the VA is run…do we really want that to be the model?
I said that the government should simply dictate that everybody is in the same single insurance pool. Not “which people” but all people. What other decision could be smarter?
I also said government should be the insurer and not the provider. The VA would be an example of a provider. By the way, lots of VA’s do great work. In fact, you’re better off being a veteran than not, health-insurance-wise They’d do better if properly funded. Guess who’s been cutting their funding?
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Tracy__5 Says:
Security trumps popularity everytime my friend.
I recognize that as a right-winger, you see absolutely no degradation in our ability to achieve our goals internationally due to the current diplomatic situation resulting from us being disrespected and loathed by pretty much everybody, everywhere. I do see a problem with that, and I do see how it tangibly cuts in to our ability to achieve our goals. I guess that’s one of the things that makes me a liberal.
February 8th, 2009 at 12:11 amThe job-loss problems are Bush’s fault.
“GEORGE W. BUSH IS THE WORST PRESIDENT IN U.S. HISTORY” BLOG OF ANDREW YU-JEN WANG
ONLINE ANTI-BUSH SCHOLASTIC RESEARCH: LISTING OF MAJOR ISSUES
http://andrewyu-jenwang.blogspot.com/2008/10/bush-is-worst-president-in-american.html
February 8th, 2009 at 12:31 amTracy,
I figured out a long time ago that you despise people who want mankind to better itself. Therefore, you should not participate in discussions about how we can better ourselves.
Have a nice life.
February 8th, 2009 at 12:37 amTracist, I have to say — you don’t bring the intellect, you don’t bring the well-sourced arguments, you don’t bring the wit, you don’t even bring the good grammar.
But you sure do have stamina.
I’ll give ya that.
February 8th, 2009 at 1:05 amWhich means the government decides who the providers are. No deal.
They do that now, don’t they? If provable substandard care is provided, their license to operate is revoked.
February 8th, 2009 at 1:19 amI “got kicked”?
I’m a “herd follower”?
I was not aware of that.
Oh well, I guess you’ve been getting your ass handed to you for almost twelve hours, I can see why you’re getting cranky.
Some people get wittier as they tire. You’re obviously not one of those people.
But you do have stamina.
February 8th, 2009 at 1:23 amOh, come on, give the kid a break! Trace couldn’t log the four hours of overtime without repeating the same mindless talking points over and over.
Do you know how exhausting it is for someone of Tracy’s limited imagination to keep composing new thoughts? That’s why Troll John Kerry only throws down one comment and then splits. He spends the rest of the day thinking up his new comment.
Tracy avoids that limitation by eliminating the “thinking” part.
February 8th, 2009 at 1:30 amI’m a “herd follower”?
I was not aware of that.
Envision a steep mountain path, where you and the rest of the llama clan carry packs, led by native herders.
It’s a natural mistake to make, Ralph.
February 8th, 2009 at 1:34 amAnd just how many people are going to buy that supplemental insurance? You actually think it’s going to be enough to cover the difference when you are suggesting the that government dictates how much doctors are to be paid?
If not, then vouchers to cover the difference. Conservatives love the concept of vouchers, so it shouldn’t be a hard sell.
February 8th, 2009 at 1:53 amTracy__5 Says:
The government being the broker between doctors and patients is “managing” health care.
Except they wouldn’t be.
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Tracy__5 Says:
But your are also in effect saying that the government decides which providers are in that pool considering it a single pool.
Um, I’m talking about the pool of insured people. As to what doctors could be paid, we already have a medical licensing system for that. All of them. Provided they’re doctors.
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Tracy__5 Says:
Which means the government decides who the providers are. No deal.
What, do you get your medical procedures done by some guy in an alley? The government already decides who can be medical providers, in case you hadn’t noticed.
.
ralph the wonder llama Says:
Oh well, I guess you’ve been getting your ass handed to you for almost twelve hours, I can see why you’re getting cranky.
Red bull, steroids and cocaine, baby! It’s the Republican cocktail of choice for 2009.
.
Tracy__5 Says:
Again you got kicked along time ago.
What is this “kicked” of which you speak? rtwl probably just had something more important to go do a long time ago.
.
Tracy__5 Says:
And just how many people are going to buy that supplemental insurance? You actually think it’s going to be enough to cover the difference when you are suggesting the that government dictates how much doctors are to be paid?
Insurance companies and/or HMO’s dictate how much doctors get paid as it is. I was just suggesting that for rich people who wouldn’t want to only have the mandated common-denominator coverage, they could add to it rather than place themselves in a separate insurance pool.
Also, here’s a message from the President.
February 8th, 2009 at 1:57 amWell you’re spot on about most mortgages being ok but you’re missing the obvious. Most people are over analyzing this thing to death and the truth is its pretty simple. As you correctly pointed out most mortgages were good, and the mortgage “crisis” wasn’t as big as so many are trying to claim. The mortgages didn’t get us here. What got us here is how congress reacted to the initial crisis as I clearly spelled out earlier. When some mortgage lenders like Countrywide over sold in the Sub Prime market, then underestimated their potential losses thanks to deregulation and the removal of oversight, thus they went under. When that happened Congress, led by Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid frightened the lenders into a lending freeze.
The lending freeze is what has snowballed the original crisis. The losses from securities carrying too high a ratio of Sub Prime mortgages which caused foreign investors to pull their money from US securities, plus lenders over selling sub prime mortgages while underestimating the potential losses thanks to deregulation was what started it. But Congresses reaction and Bush’s inaction is what got us where we are now.
Congress caused the lending freeze which is why we are now hemorrhaging jobs and why firms of all sorts are failing.
And the easy answer here is for Congress to take 100 billion out of the money they are giving away and back all mortgages for the next 24 months. Either that or put it into a lending pool and let mortgage lenders draw on it. Then lending returns, home sales return, auto sales return, and everyone goes back to work.
Its not difficult. Its just the so called experts want us to think it is.
February 8th, 2009 at 2:41 amWAYNEBRO Says:
Its not difficult. Its just the so called experts want us to think it is.
Exactly! The whole notion that economics is some sort of magical fuzzy mysterious art that doesn’t actually produce consistent results when analyzed properly is exactly what they’ve been trying to push since – ever. But when you start to look at it, it’s not that difficult at all. Somewhat difficult, sure, but not like nuclear science difficult at all.
February 8th, 2009 at 3:16 amralph the wonder llama Says:
No, janie, I think you were right in your first post. Just glancing at the numbers, it looks like we’re already worse than the last two recession.
A 1990 population of 247 million loses 1.6 million jobs, that’s a smaller percentage than a population of 300 million losing 3.6 million jobs.
1.6 million is less than 1% of 247 million, but 3.6 million is more than 1% of 300 million.
it’s already worse.
The unemployment rate is not measured by the population vs the number of job losses, take a lesson in basic economics! It’s measured by the NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN THE LABOR FORCE VS.the number of job losses.
You do realize that the population increase is mainly due to new births, and not immigration of eligible working adults. So most of the people you are counting are not old enough to work yet.
So unless you know of some 3 year old that recently got laid off, I’d say your data is not at all relevant in measuring the unemployment rate.
February 8th, 2009 at 9:51 amThanks for your rather pedantic lesson in “basic economics” but let me point out that it wasn’t MY data.
A poster named janie0419 posted the data, but her interpretation of it was backwards. She had some confusion with her handling of percentages.
But now that you bring it up with just a trace of arrogance… wouldn’t the size of the workforce generally increase in proportion to the size of the general population? Unless there’s some dramatic demographic shift, of course.
And for each infant that’s born each day, doesn’t there presumably come a point some eighteen years hence when that citizen enters the workforce?
Why yes, there does. So I would say that, in terms of providing a quick glance at the relative severity of economic downturns over the past twenty years, this data has some relevance.
But thanks for your concern.
February 8th, 2009 at 10:45 amI just read that 31 million are receiving food stamps, and I haven’t seen anything suggesting this is the peak or that everyone needing them has applied. If our government is any more responsive than it’s been for the last 8 years, it will start acting in a way that will help average Americans and the country as a whole …
February 8th, 2009 at 11:40 amNews headline trolls. The people voted for a change, specifically from you and your ideas. You have been judged and found lacking. Time for you to listen instead of pontificating………just a little friendly advice.
February 8th, 2009 at 12:27 pmYea. Things like deregulation of the lending industry are not difficult to predict will end in catastrophe.
Yet for some reason, Bush and Cheney didn’t seem to see that.
February 8th, 2009 at 1:24 pmTracy__5 Says:
“They have a vested interest in NOT promoting a liberal message.”
Which is anti-business which equals anti-jobs.
Where is the slightest evidence that Republicans know how to (or want to) create jobs?
Annual employment-growth rates for all 11 postwar presidents:
Harry Truman (1945-53), 2.38%
D Eisenhower (1953-61), 0.87%
John Kennedy (1961-63), 2.28%
L.B. Johnson -(1963-69), 3.74%
Richard Nixon (1969-74) 2.30%
Gerald Ford –(1974-77), 0.95%
Jimmy Carter -(1977-81), 3.11%
Ronald Reagan (1981-89) 2.04%
G.H.W. Bush -(1989-93), 0.59%
WJ Clinton (1993-2001), 2.42%
G. W. Bush -(2001-09), 0.28%
Notice that everytime going from Democratic to Republican administrations the job growth worsens and everytime going from Republican to Democratic, it improves. Will some Democratic spokesperson PLEASE go on TV and say this?
Records were not kept before the 1920’s, so the only change missing is from Hoover to FDR. That was obviously a huge improvement.
Also important to remember that the Reagan and two Bush administrations saw a fantastic explosion of the deficit.
February 8th, 2009 at 5:16 pmUnemployment in 1933 was 25%. Unemployment in 1937 was 10%. And Republicans today say the New Deal did not create jobs!?!
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February 8th, 2009 at 7:08 pmWe need to stop that Bill from Passing,This bill will only make it worse…
Understand that Obama is pushing a national bankrupting “stimulus” plan and trying to scare people into going along and approving it saying it will turn into a catastrophe without that bill.. That is absurd,that bill will be the catastrophe.Yes people are losing jobs daily out there but it’s because Obama hasn’t addressed the financial and credit problems with the banks,and the mortgage crisis also created by these Banks.The problems in our economy originated there and is creating every other problem we are having around the country. Businesses cannot sustain and thrive without credit. People or businesses cannot buy without loans and credit.If they cannot continue to run their businesses they cannot stock and support their business,and the consumers-us cannot buy then they cannot pay their employees. Of course they have to cut down and that means more people lose jobs! This now- is Mr. Obama’s fault. He needs to stop blaming, they’re gone now and he has the money and the control.He got the money to address that before he stepped into that office.
This so called stimulus doesn’t even address those issues at all and cannot possibly resolve those problems or end those lay offs. What is Obama waiting for here? I’ll tell you what- To pass his wish list that will break the back of our economy and rob all of us of our savings, money and livelihoods.? He already has another 350 billion dollars to use to address those Real Issues and The Real Causes Of the problems we’re having and He has done nothing with it. He needs to Resolve those two if he is to do anything first, the rest will correct itself with it.Cause and effect.Resolve the cause-eliminate the effects! In not doing so Obama is deliberately creating- allowing the decline in the economy forcing businesses to come apart.He is the cause for this on going increasing losses of employment and business shrinkages by neglecting his responsibility to Resolve The Problems With The Funds He Already Received To Do Exactly That With.That should have Obama’s number one priority, and had been resolved first and foremost.
Make no mistake here,that lack of address on Obama’s part of those main issues are a deliberate manipulation to achieve his & the Dem.’s desires and agendas which have little to do with stimulating the economy. Most of what is in that bill has no business being in a stimulus bill at all and can be addressed separately later on in a timely manner,in the proper fashion and gone over with a fine tooth comb. Obama also needs to pay ACORN out of his own pocket for their ‘$upport” and “help” with his election-Not with our tax dollars! Obama said last night that “that is what a stimulus is.Spending..” That’s spending that “stimulates our economy Now” Mr. Obama! Not 3 & 4 or more years later.That bill doesn’t serve the American people in that respect, and much of what I’ve read in that bill says to me that our government wants to drive the American people into poverty. We don’t want or need more government. Jobs that we will also have to pay for. Any contracts on workable projects and infrastructure needs to be given in The Private Sector Period.There are more than sufficient amounts of businesses and services in the private sector that can be contracted for any of the work needed to stimulate the economy and create more of those jobs in the private sector “NOW”. No more government-we need less government, no more dysfunctional organizations.
If you really look through that plan you might see what I see which is a plan designed to create a poverty nation.A Welfare Nation that is financially enslaved to this government and the rich & wealthy-the Elites around the world.They want to control everything including our children and Us.We will have and do only what they decide we’ll have and do.This so called stimulus plan is like the Set Trap to a complete loss of our individual rights and freedoms.If we all don’t stand up for them and protect them-Game Over.We’ll lose everything…..
This bill will not help those who are losing their homes or those who’ve been laid off.Everything in the way of “Help” from the government you will get after that bill-You can get right now.There isn’t going to be anything more coming out of that bill other than higher taxes on the unemployment money you’ll have to pay in 2010 on your 1090.It may bring those $25.00 more for the Un-Empl. but that’s it.Big deal-it still leaves you in poverty.I know.The spending in that bill will cost us,it will not address or stimulate our economy and bares little benefit at all and for years to come.Did you see that bill? Did you notice that what help they offer people is in Unemployment benefits,food stamps,medicaid etc.?? That’s because that will be the NORM from this point forward because the economy will not be stimulated in any way shape or form by that bill.It will only be creating more debt,more taxes to pay,more poverty for us.That bill must be stopped and stripped of the spending that does nothing to help you & me-all of Us.It only creates larger government and more control over US.Our country will become even more unstable people.We will be crying for America- our country this year,it will be a very sad time indeed…
A petition was created and sent to government officials saying that “We say No To Passing That Bill!” We oppose the American Recovery and Reinvestment Bill of 2009.
Congress should not enact an expensive spending bill under the pretense of stimulus or recovery. We cannot spend our way to prosperity, and such an expansion of the federal government will put a crushing burden on taxpayers in the long-term. If there is an infrastructure bill, it should repair deficient roads and bridges only, not directly or indirectly fund special interest pork-projects that will not stimulate this economy at all and bury the American people with ongoing debt and more debt creation.
Central planning and bigger government cannot solve our problems. Authorizing the proposed bill will only be throwing good money after bad. Instead of trying to pick winners and losers from Washington, Congress should cut spending, strip down onerous regulations and allow individuals and free enterprise to flourish.One-time spending on hand-picked projects will not lead to sustained economic growth. I urge everyone to vote NO on American Recovery and Reinvestment Bill of 2009. The problem with Mr. Obama’s Plan For Stimulating Our Economy is-There is No Plan!
**One more thing,Mr. Obama’s email list is compromised of His crooked bought and paid for “ACORN” support systems and bears little in comparison to the majority of the overall masses of American People Who Do Not Want A Government Controlled Poverty-Welfare Nation Created By Mr. Obama and his Government. Names on that contact email list of his should be ignored.
February 8th, 2009 at 7:57 pmGeez “we” you done it now. I give you two thumbs up though. Coming from me that’s a kiss of death. Wait till Ralph and dbadass get here.
February 8th, 2009 at 8:05 pmThe unemployment rate is not measured by the population vs the number of job losses, take a lesson in basic economics! It’s measured by the NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN THE LABOR FORCE VS.the number of job losses.
You do realize that the population increase is mainly due to new births, and not immigration of eligible working adults. So most of the people you are counting are not old enough to work yet.
So unless you know of some 3 year old that recently got laid off, I’d say your data is not at all relevant in measuring the unemployment rate.
For the first time Ralph I agree with you. OMG One thing though, you need to call Nancy Pelosi and have a talk with her. She said that the US loses 500 million jobs a month, or was it a week, sometimes her mouth runs on so.
February 8th, 2009 at 8:10 pmI realize that the Obama fans aren’t going to like what I’ve said professorj.I’m just calling it as I see it and it must be said.People need to look beyond the celeberty,beyond the the man to what’s beyond the surface and words.There is a very real danger here of the destruction of the way of life we know,and the counrty we live in.I can’t rely on hoping it will be okay,reading what that bill contains I have to stay with reality and absorb the effects it will have on all of us and this country.I’m bery disturbed and concerned about the path and direction that bill will lead us down.We’re in real trouble here…
I just came from another website that had an article on this very subject as well and I can see a truth there when I look around at what’s happening here.If anyone is interested in reading it-here’s the url and a clip from the article-
http://www.oilforimmigration.org/facts/?p=602
America waits with bated breath while Washington struggles to bring the U.S. economy back from the brink of disaster. But many of those same politicians caused the crisis, and if left to their own devices will do so again.
Despite the mass media news blackout, a series of books, talk radio and the blogosphere have managed to expose Barack Obama’s connections to his radical mentors — Weather Underground bombers William Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn, Communist Party member Frank Marshall Davis and others. David Horowitz and his Discover the Networks.org have also contributed a wealth of information and have noted Obama’s radical connections since the beginning.
Yet, no one to my knowledge has yet connected all the dots between Barack Obama and the Radical Left. When seen together, the influences on Obama’s life comprise a who’s who of the radical leftist movement, and it becomes painfully apparent that not only is Obama a willing participant in that movement, he has spent most of his adult life deeply immersed in it.
But even this doesn’t fully describe the extreme nature of this candidate. He can be tied directly to a malevolent overarching strategy that has motivated many, if not all, of the most destructive radical leftist organizations in the United States since the 1960s.
The Cloward-Piven Strategy of Orchestrated Crisis
In an earlier post, I noted the liberal record of unmitigated legislative disasters, the latest of which is now being played out in the financial markets before our eyes. Before the 1994 Republican takeover, Democrats had sixty years of virtually unbroken power in Congress – with substantial majorities most of the time. Can a group of smart people, studying issue after issue for years on end, with virtually unlimited resources at their command, not come up with a single policy that works? Why are they chronically incapable?
Why?
One of two things must be true. Either the Democrats are unfathomable idiots, who ignorantly pursue ever more destructive policies despite decades of contrary evidence, or they understand the consequences of their actions and relentlessly carry on anyway because they somehow benefit.
I submit to you they understand the consequences. For many it is simply a practical matter of eliciting votes from a targeted constituency at taxpayer expense; we lose a little, they gain a lot, and the politician keeps his job. But for others, the goal is more malevolent – the failure is deliberate. Don’t laugh. This method not only has its proponents, it has a name: the Cloward-Piven Strategy. It describes their agenda, tactics, and long-term strategy.
The Strategy was first elucidated in the May 2, 1966 issue of The Nation magazine by a pair of radical socialist Columbia University professors, Richard Andrew Cloward and Frances Fox Piven. David Horowitz summarizes it as:
The strategy of forcing political change through orchestrated crisis. The “Cloward-Piven Strategy” seeks to hasten the fall of capitalism by overloading the government bureaucracy with a flood of impossible demands, thus pushing society into crisis and economic collapse.
Cloward and Piven were inspired by radical organizer [and Hillary Clinton mentor] Saul Alinsky:
“Make the enemy live up to their (sic) own book of rules,” Alinsky wrote in his 1989 book Rules for Radicals. When pressed to honor every word of every law and statute, every Judeo-Christian moral tenet, and every implicit promise of the liberal social contract, human agencies inevitably fall short. The system’s failure to “live up” to its rule book can then be used to discredit it altogether, and to replace the capitalist “rule book” with a socialist one. (Courtesy Discover the Networks.org)
Newsmax rounds out the picture:
Their strategy to create political, financial, and social chaos that would result in revolution blended Alinsky concepts with their more aggressive efforts at bringing about a change in U.S. government. To achieve their revolutionary change, Cloward and Piven sought to use a cadre of aggressive organizers assisted by friendly news media to force a re-distribution of the nation’s wealth.
In their Nation article, Cloward and Piven were specific about the kind of “crisis” they were trying to create:
By crisis, we mean a publicly visible disruption in some institutional sphere. Crisis can occur spontaneously (e.g., riots) or as the intended result of tactics of demonstration and protest which either generate institutional disruption or bring unrecognized disruption to public attention.
No matter where the strategy is implemented, it shares the following features:
1. The offensive organizes previously unorganized groups eligible for government benefits but not currently receiving all they can.
February 8th, 2009 at 9:07 pm2. The offensive seeks to identify new beneficiaries and/or create new benefits.
3. The overarching aim is always to impose new stresses on target systems, with the ultimate goal of forcing their collapse.”…
We, you just drew a big bulls eye on your back.
I admire your attempt to enlighten these folks but you see they don’t want to be enlightened here. They just want to be stroked by like minded Obama worshipers. One even went through all my posts here and counted my typos and posted them.
I’m arthritic and when I get tired I makes mistakes in may typing. That’s not allowed from a Republican but Liberals do it all the time with immunity.
Good luck pal.
I’ll stick around and see how you make out though. You have guts.
February 8th, 2009 at 10:14 pmTo whom it may concern:
February 8th, 2009 at 10:38 pmThese are truly troubled times we are entering, only the most oblivious fools among us could say otherwise. But the rabbit hole we find ourselves falling down goes much deeper than most of you know. I myself have returned recently from the bottom, and let me tell you, there is nothing nice down there to land on. Weather your politics steer left or right will not make one wit of difference. Our situation is in free-fall, and not one wheel is touching ground, so no amount of “correction” will prevent the coming impact. So what do we do? For now nothing can be done(before you go into histrionics, read on to get an explanation). The die has been cast for now, and the current group in power have made their plans pretty clear. I’m very sad to say that those plans will actually make things worse, they are taking on more water on a sinking ship. Take comfort, my fellow Americans of the left, for the right would have set the ship on fire with debts of war and “defense” spending. Warfare/welfare, that is the only choices the current two parties offer(actually they both offer warfare/welfare, just in different percentages. Ask any old timers what “guns and butter” was about.). What you are witnessing is the end of an insane era, an era of unprecedented centralized control. Corporations and government have been having a long and tawdry affair, the current crisis is simply ripping away the last sheet that was covering their incestuous fornication. The sick situation started way back under Woodrow Wilson, so nearly 100 years of absolute evil is getting undone in short order. This paradigm shift is of such magnitude, and is occurring with such speed, that very few have even an understanding of the situation, the really bad news is that what few people do understand what this is all about are virtually non-existent in the halls of power on the entire planet, and what very few of them that are there, are the subject of ridicule and marginalization. Reality can no longer be denied, something for nothing was never a viable industry. The power structures of collectivist control has lost the fight of sustaining the fantasies that placated the masses, and those who bankrolled them are calling their markers and withdrawing their support, mostly because they no longer have an option. So, what does that mean for the average peon in the street? Hyperinflation, shortages, loss of essential services, feeling like they are in a foreign land while standing in their own doorway. Virtually all that you know will soon be different, I can see some of you anti-gun progressives in earlier posts telling others to “buy a gun”, think of what a shift in thinking that shows. You’ve always at the base of your heart known the truth about the social contract: There is no contract.
We cannot prevent these things now, the die is cast. But what is not written is what comes AFTER the chaos.
Many of you will not live to see the end of the coming turmoil(which I estimate will last about 12 to 17 years). Only the most realistic and adaptable will come out the other side of the coming tunnel of horrors, and even then, being as such is still no guarantee. Hopefully the survivors will build better on the dust of our failure. As always, the young will shoulder the sins of the old.
Any job lost in the public sector invariably leads to job losses in the private sector, and rising job losses in the private sector leads to even more job losses in the private sector.
Why?
Because as more and more U.S. citizens, whether in the public or private sector, hit the growing unemployment lines across our nation, this adversely affects small business revenues, causing even more job layoffs, further squeezing small business revenue as their customer/client base keeps shrinking.
This is what this graph is indicating is happening.
And tax cuts just won’t cut it.
Only massive government spending that will shore up our economy from the bottom-up, keeping people in jobs in both the public and private sector, will work at this time.
So, of course, the culture of corruption Republicans in Congress, along with some equally insane “centrist” Democrats, are advocating the exact opposite…which can only mean that that line on the graph will continue to plummet with more and more American citizens out of work, both in the public and private sectors, leading to small to medium-sized companies around our nation losing even more business.
Are the Republicans, and certain so-called “centrist” Demcorats, utterly insane?
February 8th, 2009 at 11:03 pmYou and the professor seem to think you have the answers. Funny thing is, they are the same things that got us into this mess. Fortunatly for America, you are done calling all the shots…..
February 8th, 2009 at 11:49 pm#
#
Fred Says:
We Says:
I realize that the Obama fans aren’t going to like what I’ve said professorj.I’m just calling it as I see it and it must be said.
You and the professor seem to think you have the answers. Funny thing is, they are the same things that got us into this mess. Fortunatly for America, you are done calling all the shots…
My plan is totally a bottom up plan that instantly helps the working class in this country. I mean instantly not 11 months from now. When people have more money they spend it.
That’s what stimulates the economy. Not bridges, renovations to the Smithsonian, Green cars for Government. That might help in 6 or 12 months from now but the people need money NOW, this WEEK and every WEEK until we are out of this mess. But you people go and do what your going to do. It’s all on your shoulders now. Enjoy.
Of course you and the wizard are too blinded by your liberal dogma to accept that any suggestion that doesn’t come from a Liberal Socialist could never work.
That’s your problem. We will see now won’t we. I suggest that you start by putting Barney Frank in charge of the mortgage industry. Oh wait. You did. The mortgage industry collapsed. Well then I suggest you put him in charge of investigating it. Oh wait. You did. Geeze you Liberals are smart.
Gotta hand it to you guys.
Go for it. You don’t need the Republicans. You have the power. Push through this 1.2 trillion spending bill. Full steam ahead. We can’t stop it and never had any notions that we could. So why are you Liberals whining all the time?
It hurts my ears. Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha.
February 9th, 2009 at 12:06 amI’m sorry guys. I was so insensitive. I was talking about taxes and I just realized you people hire people who cheat on their taxes. Not only that but you put them in charge of the IRS who collect the taxes. Now that’s a smart move. Two thumbs up for that one.
Yup Obie really has a handle on things. I’ll sleep better tonight.
Good night.
My fault.
February 9th, 2009 at 12:29 amIt is unbelievable that Bush oversaw huge increase in the deficit and excessive government spending and we still have this bad of a recession. The solution is obviously to spend even more. We have a non trust fund debt of $11 trillion dollars. (We can save the 30 trillion debt of medicare and Social Security for another day.) If one trillion dollars will create alot of jobs, we should really look at a bigger bill, perhaps 3-4 trillion to insure that things get going again quickly.
February 9th, 2009 at 12:50 amprodessorj, seentoomuch, and we,
Suck on this:
Annual employment-growth rates for all 11 postwar presidents:
Harry Truman (1945-53), 2.38%
D Eisenhower (1953-61), 0.87%
John Kennedy (1961-63), 2.28%
L.B. Johnson -(1963-69), 3.74%
Richard Nixon (1969-74) 2.30%
Gerald Ford –(1974-77), 0.95%
Jimmy Carter -(1977-81), 3.11%
Ronald Reagan (1981-89) 2.04%
G.H.W. Bush -(1989-93), 0.59%
WJ Clinton (1993-2001), 2.42%
G. W. Bush -(2001-09), 0.28%
Clinton created 22 million new jobs and W……What? Two million in eight years? You need 125,000 per month to keep up with population growth. That’s 12 million over eight years! And Republicans are on tv today bragging about W’s great job creation. They really bank on the ignorant population.
February 9th, 2009 at 1:37 am“Any job lost in the public sector invariably leads to job losses in the private sector,”
Nonsense.Less Public sector jobs have no bearing on the private businesses. However, creating more jobs in the Public sector does. Especially in this case.They have to borrow that trillion dollars to spend.Then with that huge infusion of Public -Government jobs that contribute nothing to the economy- First we’re paying for the job creations themselves (Forever!).Then we end up paying even more taxes for that loan and interest.But now TOO we have to pay the wages for each and every Public sector job.You know-their salaries,their benefits,pensions,health care etc.Private business and the middle class (US) has to pay for all of that.Also-Forever.You do know this right?
Job creation needs to be in the Private Sector-Period.Government spending will noit shore up the economy,that’s only a band-aid and guess what.They eventually fall off.Everything that has happened has been deliberate and it begins and ends with the Money.With all that money that went into the big financial institutions why do you think they had no effects what so ever-? Hmmm? They have been funded hUGhly over the course of this last year right up to now.But the have starved the businesses,smaller banks,the consumers- stripping all of credit forcing these layoffs by drying out the financial pipelines.They Have Been Forced To Happen.Don’t you see that!?Then the layoffs,these companys have been stating they will be cutting such & such amounts of jobs.The key words here is “Will Be”.They’ve been driven to their positions by far and panic created by the government and the Big banks-the Fed. and the decline of credit to support their businesses for no reason.
Republicans-Democrats who the hell cares.Bush and Obama-they are two sides of the same double headed coin.There’s no real difference between the two,they’re both playingg the same game with plan a & plan b.The good guy,bad guy routines and Obama’s main weapon used on Americans to get his way is their hatred and resentment for Bush. And it’s working.Look at the fools here screaming about Bush and Defending a trash Bill simply because Obama wants it.Doesn’t matter what it will do to all our lives, what it will do to our country and our future.That’s plain foolishness,following any Man blindly and allowing him to walk you staight off the cliff.Foolish people,wake the hell up! Go Read That Bill And Use Your Good Common Sense….
I don’t want to hear about Bush and the Repub’s..Don’t forget The Dem.’s were there too and have had the majority in the house for years now.Did they stop anything Bush Did?No! They went along for the ride just as you fools are doing with Obama. BTW- Obama was one of those who went along too,he did nothing either.So save it.They are all responsible for all of it.Same as the recession.Did you notice how suddenly it worsened when OBama got elected? That’s his assigned crisis for his presidency.
Right after the election if you had watched face the nation you would have heard Colin Powell say “There’s going to be a crisis that Obama will have to deal with in Jan.,that we don’t know about yet..” ???Don’t know!?! Yeah,Right!
Well folks,You’re loooking at it right now.That’s what we have here a crisis manufactured by our government and the Fed,and the wealthy just for us.Why do you think they haven’t fixed the problems with the Banks,Credit,The Mortgage Crisis-you know!The things that supposedly created the crisis we’re having?? Why Not?? Certainly they put plenty of money into it already and Obama still has that $350 billion too of that $700 billion.
Do you have a clue how much they borrowed on this over the course of this past year that they haven’t been discussing at all?? Here take a look and then ask yourself why we are having these problems.Then ask why would there need to be ay more money borrowed to throw at the same problem knowing what result we’ll get out it.There’s no change here people.That bill will bankrupt our country..
Looky Here-I’ll paste in that info.Tell me what happened to all that money?Who did it help? Why hasn’t the problems related been rsolved? Where Is That Money??
Economy rescue: Adding up the dollars
The government is engaged in an unprecedented – and expensive – effort to rescue the economy. Here are all the elements of the bailouts.
Date Bailout Allocated
December 2007 Term Auction Facility
Lending program that allows commercial banks to unload hard-to-sell assets, including mortgage-backed securities: Fed takes assets as collateral and banks get cash.
$2.1 trillion
February 2008 Economic Stimulus Act of 2008
Tax rebates of up to $600 for individual filers and $1,200 for couples in effort to boost the economy. Businesses received more than $60 billion in tax breaks.
$168 billion
March 2008 Bear Stearns bailout
Program to guarantee potential losses on Bear Stearns’ portfolio; smoothed the way for JPMorgan Chase to buy the failed investment bank.
$29 billion
March 2008 Discount window
Long-time lending facility for commercial banks that was opened to investment banks for first time in March 2008.
n/a
May 2008 Student loan guarantees
Program to purchase federal student loans from private lenders. Aim is to provide financing to companies that provide student loans.
$9 billion
September 2008 Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac bailout
Cost to the government of taking the mortgage finance companies into conservatorship.
$200 billion
September 2008 Foreign exchange dollar swaps
Exchange of dollars to 13 foreign central banks for collateral. Aim is to provide liquidity to foreign financial institutions.
Unlimited
October 2008 FHA housing rescue
Funding set aside for insurance of new 30-year
fixed-rate mortgages for at-risk borrowers, tax credits for first-time home buyers and assistance to states and municipalities.
$320 billion
October 2008 Auto industry energy efficiency loans
Low-interest loans to help speed the industry’s transition to more fuel-efficient vehicles. $25 billion
October 2008
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Troubled Asset Relief Program
Financial rescue plan aimed at restoring liquidity to the financial markets. Funds thus far allocated for capital purchases in banks and emergency bailouts.
$700 billion
November 2008
AIG capital investment
Money to help troubled insurer pay off now defunct lending facility set up by Fed in the initial version of the company’s bailout.
$40 billion
$40 billion
October 2008
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Bank capital investments
$250 billion
$195.3 billion
November 2008
Citigroup capital investment
Emergency funding to keep bank afloat; in addition to previous $25 billion capital investment.
$20 billion
$20 billion
November 2008
Citigroup loan loss backstop
Funds set aside to backstop potential losses to Treasury from Citigroup loans.
$5 billion
$0
November 2008
TALF loss provisions
Funds set aside to backstop potential losses to Treasury from purchases of consumer loan-backed securities and mortgage-backed securities.
$20 billion
$0
December 2008
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Auto industry bailout
Program that will provide capital on a case-by-case basis to systemically significant institutions that are at substantial risk of failure.
$24.9 billion
$20.9 billion
December 2008
General Motors
Government bailout of automaker to keep company afloat and help it achieve viability for the future. Last $4 billion subject to congressional approval
$13.4 billion
$9.4 billion
December 2008
Chrysler
Government bailout of automaker to keep company afloat and help it achieve viability for the future. Last $4 billion subject to congressional approval
$4 billion
$4 billion
December 2008
GMAC
Government bailout of auto finance company to which Federal Reserve granted bank holding company status. $5 billion went to GMAC directly and $1 billion to GM to make an investment in the company.
$6 billion
$6 billion
January 2009
Chrysler Financial
Government bailout of auto finance company to which Federal Reserve granted bank holding company status.
$1.5 billion
$1.5 billion
January 2009
Bank of America capital investment
Emergency funding to aid Merrill Lynch transaction; in addition to previous $25 billion capital investment.
$20 billion
$20 billion
October 2008 Money market guarantees
Four programs to help money market funds by insuring against losses; financing bank purchases of debt from funds; buying funds’ debt; and lending to funds directly.
$659 billion
October 2008 Commercial Paper Funding Facility
Purchases of short-term corporate debt aimed at boosting the struggling market and providing critical three-month financing to businesses.
$1.4 trillion
November 2008 Unemployment benefit extensions
Funds to help states expand unemployment benefits. $8 billion
November 2008
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AIG
Multifaceted bailout to help insurer through restructuring, minimize the need to post collateral and get rid of toxic assets from its balance sheet.
$152.5 billion3
November 2008
Treasury capital investment
Loan to help pay off a now defunct lending facility set up by the Fed in the initial version of the company’s bailout.
$40 billion
$40 billion
November 2008
Bridge loan
Financing to help company through its restructuring process as it spins off non-core businesses.
$60 billion
$38.3 billion
November 2008
Collateralized debt obligation purchases
Facility to buy private investors’ loans on which AIG sold insurance. As the value of loans plummeted, AIG was forced to post more collateral to back up the insurance contracts, known as credit default swap agreements.
$30 billion
$27.5 billion
November 2008
Mortgage-backed securities purchases
Facility to buy company’s securities backed by residential loans.
$22.5 billion
$19 billion
November 2008 Citigroup loan-loss backstop
Funds set aside to insure against losses from bank’s mortgage-backed securities investments. $301 billion
November 2008 Term Asset-Backed Securities Loan Facility
Program to buy consumer loan-backed securities. Aim is to revive the securitization market for consumer loans like credit cards and auto loans.
$200 billion
November 2008 GSE mortgage-backed securities purchases
Program to buy mortgage-backed securities held by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Aim is to reduce rates on home loans.
$500 billion
November 2008 GSE debt purchases
Program to buy debt issued by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Aim is to reduce rates on home loans.
$100 billion
November 2008 FDIC Temporary Liquidity Guarantee Program
Guarantees on newly issued bank bonds with maturities of more than three months. Aim is to restore liquidity to the corporate bond market and provide long-term financing to banks. $1.5 trillion
2008
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FDIC bank takeovers
Cost to FDIC fund that insures losses depositors suffer when a bank fails. $16.7 billion
January 2009 Bank of America loan-loss backstop
Funds set aside to insure against losses from bank’s Merrill Lynch merger. $118 billion
January 2009 Credit Union deposit insurance guarantees
$80 billion
January 2009 U.S. Central Federal Credit Union capital injection
$1 billion
2009
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FDIC bank takeovers
Cost to FDIC fund that insures losses depositors suffer when a bank fails. $469.1 million
Total: $9.1 trillion
February 9th, 2009 at 7:08 pm1Daily average
2At least $20 billion
3Includes $40 billion under TARP
4Part of Commercial Paper Funding Facility, not included in bailout total
Sources: Federal Reserve, Treasury, FDIC
Note: Figures as of Feb. 2, 2009
The dollar figure totals belong to the entry above it.
February 9th, 2009 at 7:15 pmOh yeah-One more thing.
NOTICE in the descriptions that are REPEATED in this “Stimulus PLan”.More money for the same things Again! Same with this next bailout Tim Geigner was talking about today.This guy too BTW-His last job was president at the Fed Reserve Bank.He’s not going to save us either.He’s part of theproblem Of the Invisible-Missing Money Listed Above.He’s one of the main fools who gave out those billions-Trillions of dollar and Nobody knows what happened to it…Well.that’s what they tell us anyways…
Read the Plan For Our Poverty-Welfare Nation:
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h1eh.txt.pdf
Here’s their own(Dem’s) summary,but not everything is in it…
COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS
DAVE OBEY (D-WI), CHAIRMAN
e Release
Thursday, January , 2009
Contact: Kirstin Brost, 202-225-2771
SUMMARY: AMERICAN RECOVERY AND REINVESTMENT
Action and Action Now!
The economy is in a crisis not seen since the Great Depression.
Credit is frozen, consumer purchasing power is in decline, in the last four months the country has lost 2 million jobs and we are expected to lose another 3 to 5 million in the next year.
Conservative economist Mark Zandi was blunt: “the economy is shutting down.”
In the next two weeks, the Congress will be considering the American Recovery and Reinvestment Bill of 2009. This package is the first crucial step in a concerted effort to create and save 3 to 4 million jobs, jumpstart our economy, and begin the process of transforming it for the 21st century with $275 billion in economic recovery tax cuts and $550 billion in thoughtful and carefully targeted priority investments with unprecedented accountability measures built in.
The package contains targeted efforts in:
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Clean, Efficient, American Energy
•
Transforming our Economy with Science and Technology
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Modernizing Roads, Bridges, Transit and Waterways
•
Education for the 21st Century
•
Tax Cuts to Make Work Pay and Create Jobs
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Lowering Healthcare Costs
•
Helping Workers Hurt by the Economy
•
Saving Public Sector Jobs and Protect Vital Services
The economy is in such trouble that, even with passage of this package, unemployment rates are expected to rise to between eight and nine percent this year. Without this package, we are warned that unemployment could explode to near twelve percent. With passage of this package, we will face a large deficit for years to come. Without it, those deficits will be devastating and we face the risk of economic chaos. Tough choices have been made in this legislation and fiscal discipline will demand more tough choices in years to come.
Since 2001, as worker productivity went up, 96% of the income growth in this country went to the wealthiest 10% of society. While they were benefitting from record high worker productivity, the remaining 90% of Americans were struggling to sustain their standard of living. They sustained it by borrowing… and borrowing… and borrowing, and when they couldn’t borrow anymore, the bottom fell out. This plan will strengthen the middle class, not just Wall Street CEOs and special interests in Washington.
Our short term task is to try to prevent the loss of millions of jobs and get our economy moving. The long term task is to make the needed investments that restore the ability of average middle income families to increase their income and build a decent future for their children.
EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
Unprecedented Accountability: A historic level of transparency, oversight and accountability will help guarantee taxpayer dollars are spent wisely and Americans can see results for their investment.
•
In many instances funds are distributed through existing formulas to programs with proven track records and accountability measures already in place.
•
How funds are spent, all announcements of contract and grant competitions and awards, and formula grant allocations must be posted on a special website created by the President. Program managers will also be listed so the public knows who to hold accountable.
•
Public notification of funding must include a description of the investment funded, the purpose, the total cost and why the activity should be funded with recovery dollars. Governors, mayors or others making funding decisions must personally certify that the investment has been fully vetted and is an appropriate use of taxpayer dollars. This will also be placed on the recovery website.
•
A Recovery Act Accountability and Transparency Board will be created to review management of recovery dollars and provide early warning of problems. The seven member board includes Inspectors General and Deputy Cabinet secretaries.
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The Government Accountability Office and the Inspectors General are provided additional funding and access for special review of recovery funding.
•
State and local whistleblowers who report fraud and abuse are protected.
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There are no earmarks in this package.
This plan targets investments to key areas that will create and preserve good jobs at the same time as it is strengthening the ability of this economy to become more efficient and produce more opportunities for employment.
Clean, Efficient, American Energy: To put people back to work today and reduce our dependence on foreign oil tomorrow, we will strengthen efforts directed at doubling renewable energy production and renovate public buildings to make them more energy efficient.
•
$32 billion to transform the nation’s energy transmission, distribution, and production systems by allowing for a smarter and better grid and focusing investment in renewable technology.
•
$16 billion to repair public housing and make key energy efficiency retrofits.
•
$6 billion to weatherize modest-income homes.
Transform our Economy with Science and Technology: We need to put scientists to work looking for the next great discovery, creating jobs in cutting-edge-technologies, and making smart investments that will help businesses in every community succeed in a global economy. For every dollar invested in broadband the economy sees a ten-fold return on that investment.
•
$10 billion for science facilities, research, and instrumentation.
•
$6 billion to expand broadband internet access so businesses in rural and other underserved areas can link up to the global economy.
Modernize Roads, Bridges, Transit and Waterways: To build a 21st century economy, we must engage contractors across the nation to create jobs rebuilding our crumbling roads, and bridges, modernize public buildings, and put people to work cleaning our air, water and land.
•
$30 billion for highway construction;
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$31 billion to modernize federal and other public infrastructure with investments that lead to long term energy cost savings;
•
$19 billion for clean water, flood control, and environmental restoration investments;
•
$10 billion for transit and rail to reduce traffic congestion and gas consumption.
Education for the 21st Century: To enable more children to learn in 21st century classrooms, labs, and libraries to help our kids compete with any worker in the world, this package provides:
•
$41 billion to local school districts through Title I ($13 billion), IDEA ($13 billion), a new School Modernization and Repair Program ($14 billion), and the Education Technology program ($1 billion).
•
$79 billion in state fiscal relief to prevent cutbacks to key services, including $39 billion to local school districts and public colleges and universities distributed through existing state and federal formulas, $15 billion to states as bonus grants as a reward for meeting key performance measures, and $25 billion to states for other high priority needs such as public safety and other critical services, which may include education.
•
$15.6 billion to increase the Pell grant by $500.
•
$6 billion for higher education modernization.
Tax Cuts to Make Work Pay and Create Jobs: We will provide direct tax relief to 95 percent of American workers, and spur investment and job growth for American Businesses. [marked up by the Ways and Means Committee]
Lower Healthcare Costs: To save not only jobs, but money and lives, we will update and computerize our healthcare system to cut red tape, prevent medical mistakes, and help reduce healthcare costs by billions of dollars each year.
•
$20 billion for health information technology to prevent medical mistakes, provide better care to patients and introduce cost-saving efficiencies.
•
$4.1 billion to provide for preventative care and to evaluate the most effective healthcare treatments.
Help Workers Hurt by the Economy: High unemployment and rising costs have outpaced Americans’ paychecks. We will help workers train and find jobs, and help struggling families make ends meet.
•
$43 billion for increased unemployment benefits and job training.
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$39 billion to support those who lose their jobs by helping them to pay the cost of keeping their employer provided healthcare under COBRA and providing short-term options to be covered by Medicaid.
•
$20 billion to increase the food stamp benefit by over 13% in order to help defray rising food costs.
Save Public Sector Jobs and Protect Vital Services: We will provide relief to states, so they can continue to employ teachers, firefighters and police officers and provide vital services without having to unnecessarily raise middle class taxes.
•
$87 billion for a temporary increase in the Medicaid matching rate.
•
$4 billion for state and local law enforcement funding.
CREATE JOBS WITH CLEAN, EFFICIENT, AMERICAN ENERGY
To put people back to work today and reduce our dependence on foreign oil tomorrow, we will make investments aimed at doubling renewable energy production and renovate public buildings to make them more energy efficient. America’s energy shortcomings present a huge opportunity to put people to work in ways that will transform our economy.
•
Reliable, Efficient Electricity Grid: $11 billion for research and development, pilot projects, and federal matching funds for the Smart Grid Investment Program to modernize the electricity grid making it more efficient, secure, and reliable and build new power lines to transmit clean, renewable energy from sources throughout the nation.
•
Renewable Energy Loan Guarantees: $8 billion for loans for renewable energy power generation and transmission projects.
•
GSA Federal Buildings: $6.7 billion for renovations and repairs to federal buildings including at least $6 billion focused on increasing energy efficiency and conservation. Projects are selected based on GSA’s ready-to-go priority list.
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Local Government Energy Efficiency Block Grants: $6.9 billion to help state and local governments make investments that make them more energy efficient and reduce carbon emissions.
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Energy Efficiency Housing Retrofits: $2.5 billion for a new program to upgrade HUD sponsored low-income housing to increase energy efficiency, including new insulation, windows, and furnaces. Funds will be competitively awarded.
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Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy Research: $2 billion for energy efficiency and renewable energy research, development, demonstration, and deployment activities to foster energy independence, reduce carbon emissions, and cut utility bills. Funds are awarded on a competitive basis to universities, companies, and national laboratories.
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Advanced Battery Loans and Grants: $2 billion for the Advanced Battery Loan Guarantee and Grants Program, to support U.S. manufacturers of advanced vehicle batteries and battery systems. America should lead the world in transforming the way automobiles are powered.
•
Energy Efficiency Grants and Loans for Institutions: $1.5 billion for energy sustainability and efficiency grants and loans to help school districts, institutes of higher education, local governments, and municipal utilities implement projects that will make them more energy efficient.
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Home Weatherization: $6.2 billion to help low-income families reduce their energy costs by weatherizing their homes and make our country more energy efficient.
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Smart Appliances: $300 million to provide consumers with rebates for buying energy efficient Energy Star products to replace old appliances, which will lower energy bills.
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GSA Federal Fleet: $600 million to replace older vehicles owned by the federal government with alternative fuel automobiles that will save on fuel costs and reduce carbon emissions.
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Electric Transportation: $200 million for a new grant program to encourage electric vehicle technologies.
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Cleaning Fossil Energy: $2.4 billion for carbon capture and sequestration technology demonstration projects. This funding will provide valuable information necessary to reduce the amount of carbon dioxide emitted into the atmosphere from industrial facilities and fossil fuel power plants.
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Department of Defense Research: $350 million for research into using renewable energy to power weapons systems and military bases.
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Alternative Buses and Trucks: $400 million to help state and local governments purchase efficient alternative fuel vehicles to reduce fuel costs and carbon emissions.
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Industrial Energy Efficiency: $500 million for energy efficient manufacturing demonstration projects.
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Diesel Emissions Reduction: $300 million for grants and loans to state and local governments for projects that reduce diesel emissions, benefiting public health and reducing global warming. This includes technologies to retrofit emission exhaust systems on school buses, replace engines and vehicles, and establish anti-idling programs. 70% of the funds go to competitive grants and 30% funds grants to states with approved programs. Last year EPA was able to fund only 27% of the applications received.
TRANSFORMING OUR ECONOMY WITH SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
We need to put scientists to work looking for the next great discovery, create jobs in cutting-edge technologies and making smart investments that will help businesses in every community succeed in a global economy.
Broadband to Give Every Community Access to the Global Economy
•
Wireless and Broadband Grants: $6 billion for broadband and wireless services in underserved areas to strengthen the economy and provide business and job opportunities in every section of America with benefits to e-commerce, education, and healthcare. For every dollar invested in broadband the economy sees a ten-fold return on that investment.
Scientific Research
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National Science Foundation: $3 billion, including $2 billion for expanding employment opportunities in fundamental science and engineering to meet environmental challenges and to improve global economic competitiveness, $400 million to build major research facilities that perform cutting edge science, $300 million for major research equipment shared by institutions of higher education and other scientists, $200 million to repair and modernize science and engineering research facilities at the nation’s institutions of higher education and other science labs, and $100 million is also included to improve instruction in science, math and engineering.
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National Institutes of Health Biomedical Research: $2 billion, including $1.5 billion for expanding good jobs in biomedical research to study diseases such as Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, cancer, and heart disease – NIH is currently able to fund less than 20% of approved applications – and $500 million to implement the repair and improvement strategic plan developed by the NIH for its campuses.
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University Research Facilities: $1.5 billion for NIH to renovate university research facilities and help them compete for biomedical research grants. The National Science Foundation estimates a maintenance backlog of $3.9 billion in biological science research space. Funds are awarded competitively.
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Centers for Disease Control and Prevention: $462 million to enable CDC to complete its Buildings and Facilities Master Plan, as well as renovations and construction needs of the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health.
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Department of Energy: $1.9 billion for basic research into the physical sciences including high-energy physics, nuclear physics, and fusion energy sciences and improvements to DOE laboratories and scientific facilities. $400 million is for the Advanced Research Project Agency – Energy to support high-risk, high-payoff research into energy sources and energy efficiency.
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NASA: $600 million, including $400 million to put more scientists to work doing climate change research, including Earth science research recommended by the National Academies, satellite sensors that measure solar radiation critical to understanding climate change, and a thermal infrared sensor to the Landsat Continuing Mapper necessary for water management, particularly in the western states; $150 million for research, development, and demonstration to improve aviation safety and Next Generation air traffic control (NextGen); and $50 million to repair NASA centers damaged by hurricanes and floods last year.
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Biomedical Advanced Research and Development, Pandemic Flu, and Cyber Security: $900 million to prepare for a pandemic influenza, support advanced development of medical countermeasures for chemical, biological, radiological, and nuclear threats, and for cyber security protections at HHS.
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National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration Satellites and Sensors: $600 million for satellite development and acquisitions, including climate sensors and climate modeling.
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National Institute of Standards and Technology: $300 million for competitive construction grants for research science buildings at colleges, universities, and other research organizations and $100 million to coordinate research efforts of laboratories and national research facilities by setting interoperability standards for manufacturing.
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Agricultural Research Service: $209 million for agricultural research facilities across the country. ARS has a list of deferred maintenance work at facilities of roughly $315 million.
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U.S. Geological Survey: $200 million to repair and modernize U.S.G.S. science facilities and equipment, including improvements to laboratories, earthquake monitoring systems, and computing capacity.
Creating Small Business Opportunity
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Small Business Credit: $430 million for new direct lending and loan guarantee authorities to make loans more attractive to lenders and free up capital. The number of loans guaranteed under the SBA’s 7(a) business loan program was down 57% in the first quarter of this year compared to last.
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Rural Business-Cooperative Service: $100 million for rural business grants and loans to guarantee $2 billion in loans for rural businesses at a time of unprecedented demand due to the credit crunch. Private sector lenders are increasingly turning to this program to help businesses get access to capital.
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Industrial Technology Services: $100 million, including $70 million for the Technology Innovation Program to accelerate research in potentially revolutionary technologies with high job growth potential, and $30 million for the Manufacturing Extension Partnerships to help small and mid-size manufacturers compete globally by providing them with access to technology.
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Economic Development Assistance: $250 million to address long-term economic distress in urban industrial cores and rural areas distributed based on need and ability to create jobs and attract private investment. EDA leverages $10 in private investments for $1 in federal funds.
DTV Conversion Coupons: $650 million to continue the coupon program to enable American households to convert from analog television transmission to digital transmission.
MODERNIZE ROADS, BRIDGES, TRANSIT AND WATERWAYS
To build a 21st century economy, we must engage contractors across the nation to create jobs – rebuilding our crumbling roads and bridges, modernizing public buildings, and putting people to work cleaning our air, water, and land.
Highway Infrastructure: $30 billion for highway and bridge construction projects. It is estimated that states have over 5,100 projects totaling over $64 billion that could be awarded within 180 days. These projects create jobs in the short term while saving commuters time and money in the long term. In 2006, the Department of Transportation estimated $8.5 billion was needed to maintain current systems and $61.4 billion was needed to improve highways and bridges.
Transit: Public transportation saves Americans time and money, saving as much as 4.2 billion gallons of gasoline and reducing carbon emissions by 37 million metric tons each year.
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New Construction: $1 billion for Capital Investment Grants for new commuter rail or other light rail systems to increase public use of mass transit and to speed projects already in construction. The Federal Transit Administration has $2.4 billion in pre-approved projects.
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Upgrades and Repair: $2 billion to modernize existing transit systems, including renovations to stations, security systems, computers, equipment, structures, signals, and communications. Funds will be distributed through the existing formula. The repair backlog is nearly $50 billion.
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Transit Capital Assistance: $6 billion to purchase buses and equipment needed to increase public transportation and improve intermodal and transit facilities. The Department of Transportation estimates a $3.2 billion maintenance backlog and $9.2 billion in needed improvements. The American Public Transportation Association identified 787 ready-to-go transit projects totaling $15.5 billion. Funds will be distributed through the existing formulas.
Amtrak and Intercity Passenger Rail Construction Grants: $1.1 billion to improve the speed and capacity of intercity passenger rail service. The Department of Transportation’s Inspector General estimates the North East Corridor alone has a backlog of over $10 billion.
Airport Improvement Grants: $3 billion for airport improvement projects that will improve safety and reduce congestion. An estimated $41 billion in eligible airport infrastructure projects are needed between 2007-2011.
Transportation Security Administration Explosive Detection Systems: $500 million to install Aviation Explosive Detection Systems in the nation’s airports, improving security, and making life easier on travelers by speeding security lines. Funds are competitively awarded based on security risk.
Coast Guard Bridges: $150 million for ready-to-go investments to repair or remove bridges deemed hazardous to marine navigation, thereby removing obstructions and improving the safety of marine navigation.
Technology Improvements for a More Efficient and Secure Government
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Social Security Administration Modernization: $400 million to replace the 30 year old Social Security Administration’s National Computer Center to meet growing needs for processing retirement and disability claims and records storage.
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Farm Service Agency: $245 million for critical IT improvements to systems that have been unable to handle workload increases.
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State Department Technology: $276 million to upgrade and modernize information technology platforms for the Department to meet security requirements post-9/11.
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Department of Agriculture: $44 million for repairs and security improvements at USDA’s headquarters.
Department of Defense Facilities
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Medical Facilities: $3.75 billion for new construction of hospitals and ambulatory surgical centers, and $455 million in renovations to provide state-of-the-art medical care to service members and their families.
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Facilities Renovations: $2.1 billion to address needed repairs to military facilities.
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Troop Housing: $1.2 billion for new construction and $154 million for renovations to improve housing for our troops.
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Child Development Center: $360 million for new child development centers.
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Guard and Reserve: $400 million for new construction to support Guard and Reserve units across the country with operations and training facilities and utilities infrastructure.
Veterans Administration Facilities
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Veterans Medical Facilities: $950 million for veterans’ medical facilities. The Department has identified a $5 billion backlog in needed repairs, including energy efficiency projects, at its 153 medical facilities.
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Veterans Cemeteries: $50 million to put people to work making monument and memorial repairs at cemeteries for American heroes.
Border Ports of Entry: $1.15 billion to construct GSA and Customs and Border Patrol land ports of entry to improve border security, make trade and travel easier and reduce wait times, and to procure non-intrusive inspection technology at sea ports of entry, which is used to scan cargo containers to reduce the risk that containers can be used to smuggle weapons of mass destruction.
Job Corps Facilities: $300 million to upgrade job training facilities serving at-risk youth while improving energy efficiency.
Construction on Public Lands and Parks: $3.1 billion for infrastructure projects on federal lands including improvements to visitor facilities, road and trail restoration, preservation of buildings of cultural and historic importance, rehabilitation of abandoned mines and oil fields, and environmental cleanup projects. This includes $1.8 billion for the National Park Service, $325 million for the Bureau of Land Management, $300 million for the National Wildlife Refuges and National Fish Hatcheries, and $650 million for the Forest Service.
National Treasures: $400 million, including $200 million to address the deterioration of the National Mall, such as repair of the Jefferson Memorial’s collapsing Tidal Basin walls; $150 million to address the repair backlog at the Smithsonian; and $50 million for the National Endowment for the Arts.
Clean Water
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Clean Water State Revolving Fund: $6 billion for loans to help communities upgrade wastewater treatment systems. EPA estimates a $388 billion funding gap. The Association of State and Interstate Water Pollution Control Administrators found that 26 states have $10 billion in approved water projects.
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Drinking Water State Revolving Fund: $2 billion for loans for drinking water infrastructure. EPA estimates there is a $274 billion funding gap. The National Governors Association reported that there are $6 billion in ready-to-go projects, which could quickly be obligated.
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Rural Water and Waste Disposal: $1.5 billion to support $3.8 billion in grants and loans to help communities fund drinking water and wastewater treatment systems. In 2008, there were $2.4 billion in requests for water and waste loans and $990 million for water and waste grants went unfunded.
Water Resources
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Corps of Engineers: $4.5 billion for environmental restoration, flood protection, hydropower, and navigation infrastructure critical to the economy. The Corps has a construction backlog of $61 billion.
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Bureau of Reclamation: $500 million to provide clean, reliable drinking water to rural areas and to ensure adequate water supply to western localities impacted by drought. The Bureau has backlogs of more than $1 billion in rural water projects and water reuse and recycling projects.
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Watershed Infrastructure: $400 million for the Natural Resources Conservation Service watershed improvement programs to design and build flood protection and water quality projects, repair aging dams, and purchase and restore conservation easements in river flood zones.
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International Boundary and Water Commission: $224 million to repair flood control systems along the international segment of the Rio Grande damaged by hurricane Katrina and other serious storms.
Environmental Cleanup
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Superfund Hazardous Waste Cleanup: $800 million to clean up hazardous and toxic waste sites that threaten health and the environment. EPA has 1,255 sites on its National Priority List, selected based on a hazard ranking system. There are many Superfund sites ready for construction, but not funded due to budget shortfalls and over 600 sites with ongoing construction that could be accelerated.
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Leaking Underground Storage Tanks: $200 million for enforcement and cleanup of petroleum leaks from underground storage tanks at approximately 1,600 additional sites. There are an estimated 116,000 sites with the potential to contaminate important water supplies.
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Nuclear Waste Cleanup: $500 million for nuclear waste cleanup at sites contaminated as a result of the nation’s past nuclear activities. Accelerating the completion of projects will reduce long-term costs.
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Closed Military Bases: $300 million for cleanup activities at closed military installations allowing local communities to redevelop these properties for productive use. The Department estimates that there is a $3.5 billion environmental cleanup backlog at bases closed during previous BRAC rounds.
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NOAA Habitat Restoration: $400 million for ready-to-go habitat restoration projects.
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Brownfields: $100 million for competitive grants for evaluation and cleanup of former industrial and commercial sites – turning them from problem properties to productive community use. Last year EPA was only able to fund 37% of Brownfields applications.
Reducing Wildfires Threats: $850 million for hazardous fuels removal and other efforts to prevent wildfires on public lands. Making these investments today will create jobs in the short run, but also save long term costs of fighting fires in the future.
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State and Private Forest Service Wildfire: $550 million for state and local volunteer programs and hazardous fuels reduction efforts which states and communities have determined are of the highest priority.
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Federal Forest Service Wildfire: $300 million for urgently needed hazard reduction on federal lands.
Bureau of Indian Affairs: $500 million to address maintenance backlogs at schools, dams, detention and law enforcement facilities, and over 24,000 miles of roads. BIA schools alone have an over $1 billion construction and maintenance backlog including shamefully unsafe conditions.
EDUCATION FOR THE 21st CENTURY
We will put people to work building 21st century classrooms, labs, and libraries to help our kids compete with any worker in the world.
21st Century Classrooms
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School Construction: $20 billion, including $14 billion for K-12 and $6 billion for higher education, for renovation and modernization, including technology upgrades and energy efficiency improvements. Also includes $100 million for school construction in communities that lack a local property tax base because they contain non-taxable federal lands such as military bases or Indian reservations, and $25 million to help charter schools build, obtain, and repair schools.
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Education Technology: $1 billion for 21st century classrooms, including computer and science labs and teacher technology training.
Higher Education: Tuition is up, unemployment is up, and as a result more people are choosing to go to school to upgrade their skills and more of these students need student aid. This investment addresses those short term needs while investing in our nation’s future economic strength.
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Pell Grants: $15.6 billion to increase the maximum Pell Grant by $500, from $4,850 to $5,350.
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College Work-Study: $490 million to support undergraduate and graduate students who work.
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Student Loan Limit Increase: Increases limits on unsubsidized Stafford loans by $2,000.
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Student Aid Administration: $50 million to help the Department of Education administer surging student aid programs while navigating the changing student loan environment.
K-12 Education: As states begin tackling a projected $350 billion in budget shortfalls these investments will prevent cuts to critical education programs and services.
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IDEA Special Education: $13 billion for formula grants to increase the federal share of special education costs and prevent these mandatory costs from forcing states to cut other areas of education.
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Title I Help for Disadvantaged Kids: $13 billion for grants to help disadvantaged kids in nearly every school district and more than half of all public schools reach high academic standards.
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Statewide Data Systems: $250 million for competitive grants to states to design and develop data systems that analyze individual student data to find ways to improve student achievement, providing teachers and administrators with effective tools.
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Education for Homeless Children and Youth: $66 million for formula grants to states to provide services to homeless children including meals and transportation when high unemployment and home foreclosures have created an influx of homeless kids.
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Improving Teacher Quality: $300 million, including $200 million for competitive grants to school districts and states to provide financial incentives for teachers and principals who raise student achievement and close the achievement gaps in high-need schools and $100 million for competitive grants to states to address teacher shortages and modernize the teaching workforce.
Early Childhood Development
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Child Care Development Block Grant: $2 billion to provide child care services for an additional 300,000 children in low-income families while their parents go to work. Today only one out of seven eligible children receives care.
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Head Start: $2.1 billion to provide comprehensive development services to help 110,000 additional children succeed in school. Funds are distributed based on need. Only about half of all eligible preschoolers and less than 3 percent of eligible infants and toddlers participate in Head Start.
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IDEA Infants and Families: $600 million for formula grants to help states serve children with disabilities age 2 and younger.
LOWER HEALTHCARE COSTS
To save not only jobs, but money and lives, we will update and computerize our healthcare system to cut red tape, prevent medical mistakes, and help reduce healthcare costs by billions of dollars each year.
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Health Information Technology: $20 billion to jumpstart efforts to computerize health records to cut costs and reduce medical errors.
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Prevention and Wellness Fund: $3 billion to fight preventable chronic diseases, the leading cause of deaths in the U.S., and infectious diseases. Preventing disease rather than treating illnesses is the most effective way to reduce healthcare costs. This includes hospital infection prevention, Preventive Health and Health Services Block Grants for state and local public health departments, immunization programs, and evidence-based disease prevention.
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Healthcare Effectiveness Research: $1.1 billion for Healthcare Research and Quality programs to compare the effectiveness of different medical treatments funded by Medicare, Medicaid, and SCHIP. Finding out what works best and educating patients and doctors will improve treatment and save taxpayers money.
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Community Health Centers: $1.5 billion, including $500 million to increase the number of uninsured Americans who receive quality healthcare and $1 billion to renovate clinics and make health information technology improvements. More than 400 applications submitted earlier this year for new or expanded CHC sites remain unfunded.
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Training Primary Care Providers: $600 million to address shortages and prepare our country for universal healthcare by training primary healthcare providers including doctors, dentists, and nurses as well as helping pay medical school expenses for students who agree to practice in underserved communities through the National Health Service Corps.
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Indian Health Service Facilities: $550 million to modernize aging hospitals and health clinics and make healthcare technology upgrades to improve healthcare for underserved rural populations.
HELP WORKERS HURT BY THE ECONOMY
High unemployment and rising costs have outpaced Americans’ paychecks. We will help workers train and find jobs, and help struggling families make ends meet.
Helping Workers Find Jobs
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Training and Employment Services: $4 billion for job training including formula grants for adult, dislocated worker, and youth services (including $1.2 billion to create up to one million summer jobs for youth). The needs of workers also will be met through dislocated worker national emergency grants, new competitive grants for worker training in high growth and emerging industry sectors (with priority consideration to “green” jobs and healthcare), and increased funds for the YouthBuild program. Green jobs training will include preparing workers for activities supported by other economic recovery funds, such as retrofitting of buildings, green construction, and the production of renewable electric power.
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Vocational Rehabilitation State Grants: $500 million for state formula grants for construction and rehabilitation of facilities to help persons with disabilities prepare for gainful employment.
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Employment Services Grants: $500 million to match unemployed individuals to job openings through state employment service agencies and allow states to provide customized services. Funds are targeted to states with the greatest need based on labor force, unemployment, and long-term unemployed rates.
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Community Service Employment for Older Americans: $120 million to provide subsidized community service jobs to an additional 24,000 low-income older Americans.
Unemployment Insurance Benefits
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Benefits Extension: $27 billion to continue the current extended unemployment benefits program – which provides up to 33 weeks of extended benefits – through December 31, 2009 given rising unemployment.
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Increased Benefits: $9 billion to increase the current average unemployment insurance benefit from roughly $300 per week, paid out of State trust funds, by $25 per week using Federal funds, through December 2009. There are currently 5.3 million workers receiving regular UI and an additional 1.9 million receiving extended benefits.
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Unemployment Insurance Modernization: Provides funds to states though a “Reed Act” distribution, tied to states’ meeting specific reforms to increase unemployment insurance coverage for low-wage, part-time, and other jobless workers.
COBRA Healthcare for the Unemployed: $30.3 billion to extend health insurance coverage to the unemployed, extending the period of COBRA coverage for older and tenured workers beyond the 18 months provided under current law. Specifically, workers 55 and older, and workers who have worked for an employer for 10 or more years will be able to retain their COBRA coverage until they become Medicare eligible or secure coverage through a subsequent employer. In addition, subsidizing the first 12 months of COBRA coverage for eligible persons who have lost their jobs on or after September 1, 2008 at a 65 percent subsidy rate, the same rate provided under the Health Care Tax Credit for unemployed workers under the Trade Adjustment Assistance program. [Ways and Means]
Medicaid Coverage for the Unemployed: Provides 100 percent federal funding through 2010 for optional State Medicaid coverage of individuals (and their dependents) who are receiving unemployment benefits or have exhausted those benefits and have no health insurance coverage. Other optional coverage groups are individuals (and their dependents) who are involuntarily unemployed and uninsured and whose family income does not exceed 200 percent of poverty, and unemployed uninsured individuals who are receiving food stamps.”
Attacking the Housing Crisis
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Public Housing Capital Fund: ::(ACORN)$5 billion for building repair and modernization, including critical safety repairs. Every dollar of Capital Fund expenditures produces $2.12 in economic return. $4 billion of the funds will be distributed to public housing authorities through the existing formula and $1 billion will be awarded through a competitive process for projects that improve energy efficiency.
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HOME Investment Partnerships: $1.5 billion to help local communities build and rehabilitate low-income housing using green technologies. Thousands of ready-to-go housing projects have been stalled by the credit crunch. Funds are distributed by formula.
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Native American Housing Block Grants: $500 million to rehabilitate and improve energy efficiency at some of the over 42,000 housing units maintained by Native American housing programs. Half of the funding will be distributed by formula and half will be competitively awarded to projects that can be started quickly.
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Neighborhood Stabilization:(ACORN) $4.2 billion to help communities purchase and rehabilitate foreclosed, vacant properties in order to create more affordable housing and reduce neighborhood blight.
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Homeless Assistance Grants: $1.5 billion for the Emergency Shelter Grant program to provide short term rental assistance, housing relocation, and stabilization services for families during the economic crisis. Funds are distributed by formula.
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Rural Housing Insurance Fund::(ACORN) $500 million to support $22 billion in direct loans and loan guarantees to help rural families and individuals buy homes during the credit crunch. Last year these programs received $13.4 billion more in applications than they could fund.
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Self-Help and Assisted Homeownership Program:::(ACORN) $10 million for rural, high-need areas to undertake projects using sustainable and energy-efficient building and rehabilitation practices. Funds will be awarded by competition to projects that can begin quickly.
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Lead Paint: $100 million for competitive grants to local governments and nonprofit organizations to remove lead-based paint hazards in low-income housing.
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Rural Community Facilities: $200 million to support $1.2 billion in grants and loans to rural areas for critical community facilities, such as for healthcare, education, fire and rescue, day care, community centers, and libraries. There are over $1.2 billion in applications pending.
Alleviating Hunger
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Supplemental Nutrition Assistance: $20 billion to provide nutrition assistance to modest-income families and to lift restrictions that limit the amount of time individuals can receive food stamps.
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Senior Nutrition Programs: $200 million for formula grants to states for elderly nutrition services including Meals on Wheels and Congregate Meals.
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Afterschool Meals: $726 million to increase the number of states that provide free dinners to children and to encourage participation by new institutions by increasing snack reimbursement rates.
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Supplemental Nutrition Program Information Systems: $100 million to improve state management information systems for the WIC program.
Payments to Disabled and Elderly: $4.2 billion to help 7.5 million low-income disabled and elderly individuals with rising costs by providing an additional SSI payment in 2009 equal to the average monthly federal payment under the program (approximately $450 for an individual and $630 for a couple). This one-time payment will serve as an immediate economic stimulus as half of SSI recipients have no other form of income and the other half average outside income of less than $450 per month.
Community Services Block Grant: $1 billion for grants to local communities to support employment, food, housing, and healthcare efforts serving those hardest hit by the recession. Community action agencies have seen dramatic increases in requests for their assistance due to rising unemployment, housing foreclosures, and high food and fuel prices.
Community Development Block Grants: ::(ACORN)$1 billion for community and economic development projects including housing and services for those hit hard by tough economic times.
Emergency Food and Shelter: $200 million to help local community organizations provide food, shelter, and support services to the nation’s hungry, homeless, and people in economic crisis including one-month utility payments to prevent service cut-off and one-month rent or mortgage assistance to prevent evictions or help people leave shelters. Funds are distributed by formula based on unemployment and poverty rates.
Low-Income Home Energy Assistance: $1 billion to help low-income families pay for home heating and cooling at a time of rising energy costs.
Child Support Enforcement: $1 billion to provide federal incentive funds for states to collect support owed to families.
Social Security Administration Disability Backlog and Claims Processing: $500 million to help the Social Security Administration process a steep rise in disability and retirement claims, getting people their benefits faster, and preventing existing backlogs from getting worse. Within this total, $40 million will help SSI upgrade health information technology.
Centers for Independent Living: $200 million for state formula grants to help individuals with disabilities continue to live in their communities.
AmeriCorps Programs: $200 million to put approximately 16,000 additional AmeriCorps members to work doing national service, meeting needs of vulnerable populations and communities during the recession.
Compassion Capital Fund: $100 million for grants to faith- and community-based organizations to provide critical safety net services to needy individuals and families.
Department of Labor Worker Protection and Oversight: $80 million to ensure that worker protection laws are enforced as recovery infrastructure investments are carried out.
SAVE PUBLIC SECTOR JOBS AND PROTECT VITAL SERVICES
We will provide relief to states, so they can continue to employ teachers, firefighters, and police officers and provide vital services without having to unnecessarily raise middle class taxes.
Medicaid Aid to States (FMAP): Approximately $87 billion to states, increasing through the end of FY 2010 the share of Medicaid costs the federal government reimburses states, with additional relief tied to rates of unemployment. In the previous recession the federal government increased its contribution to Medicaid to help states avoid cuts in health benefits at a time when low-income patient loads are increasing and State revenues are declining.
State Education and Other Budget Priorities: $120 billion to states and school districts to stabilize budgets and prevent tax increases and deep cuts to critical education programs, including:
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$41 billion to local school districts through Title I ($13 billion), IDEA ($13 billion), a new School Modernization and Repair Program ($14 billion), and the Education Technology program ($1 billion).
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$79 billion in state fiscal relief, including: $39 billion to local school districts and public colleges and universities distributed through existing state and federal formulas; $15 billion to states as bonus grants as a reward for meeting key performance measures; and $25 billion to states for other high priority needs such as public safety and other critical services, which may include education.
State and Local Law Enforcement: $4 billion to support state and local law enforcement including $3 billion for the Byrne Justice Assistance formula grants to support local law enforcement efforts with equipment and operating costs, and $1 billion for the COPS hiring grant program, to hire about 13,000 new police officers for three years. The grantee is responsible for at least 25% in matching funds and must commit to use their own funds to keep the officer on board in the fourth year.
Periodic Census and Programs, Communications: $1 billion for work necessary to ensure a successful 2010 census, including $150 million for expanded communications and outreach programs to minimize undercounting of minority groups.
Temporary Assistance for Needy Families: $2.5 billion for block grants to help States deal with the surge in families needing help during the recession and to prevent them from cutting work programs and services for abused and neglected children.
OTHER IMPORTANT POLICY PROVISION
Medicare and Medicaid Regulations: The bill extends the moratorium on Medicaid and Medicare regulations.
Pay special attention too to that part about digital Health care files and them interfering in your health care.Mr. Obama Again is taking away another one of your civil rights-Your Right to Privacy in your Medical treatments & records.Today not even the police can view them without your permission or a court order.Tomorrow-? They’ll be being sold to others.Oh and you’ll be having to worry about someone using them to deny you a job because of your health info.You know-just like your credit history.Don’t you just love the Obama-nation Of Change!Wake up my friends,wake up and speak up on these issues before it’s too late too….
” The bill’s health rules will affect “every individual in the United States” (pages 445, 454, 479). Your medical treatments will be tracked electronically by a federal system. Having electronic medical records at your fingertips, easily transferred to a hospital, is beneficial. It will help avoid duplicate tests and errors.
But the bill goes further. One new bureaucracy, the National Coordinator of Health Information Technology, will monitor treatments to make sure your doctor is doing what the federal government deems appropriate and cost effective. The goal is to reduce costs and “guide” your doctor’s decisions (pages 442, 446). These provisions in the stimulus bill are virtually identical to what Daschle prescribed in his 2008 book, “Critical: What We Can Do About the Health-Care Crisis.” According to Daschle, doctors have to give up autonomy and “learn to operate less like solo practitioners.”
Keeping doctors informed of the newest medical findings is important, but enforcing uniformity goes way too far….”
February 10th, 2009 at 8:45 pmYou are good at cut & paste but your comprehension seems to need a bit of help.
February 14th, 2009 at 8:45 pm