Fred Kagan: ‘The Iraqis Were Not Bitching’ About Civilian Deaths Because They ‘Sort Of Accept’ Them
Fred Kagan: ‘The Iraqis Were Not Bitching’ About Civilian Deaths Because They ‘Sort Of Accept’ Them
AEI’s Fred Kagan, the architect of the Iraq surge, has a history of grossly misreading events on the ground in Iraq. In August 2007, amidst the height of skyrocketing violence in Iraq, Kagan claimed that “sectarian deaths” were “way down.” After Baghdad had been virtually cleansed of Sunnis in March 2008, Kagan decried the “magnificent myth” of ethnic cleansing in Iraq.
At an AEI panel Wednesday, Kagan drastically overplayed Iraqis’ tolerance for “collateral damage” resulting from U.S. military incursions. Comparing Afghanistan and Iraq, Kagan said that a notable difference between the two wars is that Iraqi civilians “were not bitching” when civilians were killed:
KAGAN: The interesting thing is that when we were fighting those battles and doing that damage, on the whole the Iraqis were not bitching about collateral damage. You had nothing like the degree of upset about how many civilians were being injured and how much damage was being done to the infrastructure in Iraq at a much higher level of destruction than you have in Afghanistan at a much lower level of destruction.
Kagan then attributed the differences between Iraqis’ so-called tolerance for civilian deaths — and Afghan’s intolerance — to “cultural reasons”:
KAGAN: I think there’s a cultural reason for that: Afghans don’t fight in their cities. Iraqis do. For good or ill, Iraqis expect to fight in their cities. That’s where the insurgents dug in, Saddam Hussein planned to dig in to the cities or lure us into an urban fight. It’s sort of understood that the battlefield is going to be there, that doesn’t mean that they don’t complain about it, that doesn’t mean that it’s not a problem, but it does mean that when the insurgents dig in and we root them out, the Iraqis don’t on the whole say “darn it, you shouldn’t have blown up all of our houses.” They sort of accept that. Afghans do not.
Listen here:
Over at the Wonk Room, Matt Duss notes that Kagan’s casual dismissal of human rights marks a line in the sand between progressives and neoconservatives. “Neoconservatism is based in the idea that there’s no national security problem that can’t be overcome by the relentless application of the military force. Progressives understand that this is wrong,” he writes.
According to Kagan, Iraqis’ overwhelming disapproval of the U.S. occupation, demanding a timetable for withdrawal, and celebrating a man who threw shoes at President Bush signifies their tolerance for “collateral damage.”
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Is that what your Iraqi friends told you, Fred?
Or just a vision you had while shroomin’ out in Lou Dobbs’ sauna with Mikey O’Hanlon?
February 20th, 2009 at 5:02 pmDoes The Shoe Thrower count as Iraqi?
“I don’t know what accomplishments he was talking about. The accomplishments I could see were the more than 1 million martyrs and a sea of blood,” al-Zaidi said. “There are more than 5 million Iraqi orphans because of the occupation. … More than a million widows and more than 3 million displaced because of the occupation.”
February 20th, 2009 at 5:02 pmOver at the Wonk Room, Matt Duss notes that Kagan’s casual dismissal of human rights marks a line in the sand between progressives and neoconservatives.
__________
It’s not just human rights that neocons dismiss. It’s humanity, period. The line in the sand is that progressives value human life, and neocons don’t.
February 20th, 2009 at 5:03 pmThe Borgen Project has some good info on the cost of addressing global poverty.
$30 billion: Annual shortfall to end world hunger.
February 20th, 2009 at 5:04 pm$550 billion: U.S. Defense budget
Oh good Lord, not Fred Kagan.
Ari Fleisher is about all I can deal with right now.
February 20th, 2009 at 5:04 pmTo be slightly more accurate, HTH:
progressives value human life, and neocons don’t, unless it’s a blastocyst, or a missing white girl.
February 20th, 2009 at 5:05 pmIs there No End to their Insanity? Geez, every time you think they’ve hit bottom, they grab yet another shovel! I was rooting for criminal charges/free trip to the Hague.This last disconnect from reality, however, calls for getting them all on a bus, giving them lovely jackets with sleeves that go all the way around followed by full frontal lobotomies with thorazine chasers! Lock them up and throw away the key!
February 20th, 2009 at 5:05 pmSomebody get Fred some iodized salt. Quick.
February 20th, 2009 at 5:06 pmAEI’s Fred Kagan, the architect of the Iraq surge: For good or ill, Iraqis expect to fight in their cities. That’s where the insurgents dug in, Saddam Hussein planned to dig in to the cities or lure us into an urban fight. It’s sort of understood that the battlefield is going to be there, that doesn’t mean that they don’t complain about it, that doesn’t mean that it’s not a problem, but it does mean that when the insurgents dig in and we root them out, the Iraqis don’t on the whole say “darn it, you shouldn’t have blown up all of our houses.” They sort of accept that. Afghans do not.
If you read this in Archie Bunker’s voice, you understand where Norman Lear derived the American Idiocy that was conservative mentality. It would read like one of Archie’s classic world proclamations….
February 20th, 2009 at 5:08 pmSeriously – a guy could end up with back problems hauling a goiter like that around.
Doesn’t AEI provide health coverage?
February 20th, 2009 at 5:10 pmralph the wonder llama Says:
To be slightly more accurate, HTH:
progressives value human life, and neocons don’t, unless it’s a blastocyst, or a missing white girl.
February 20th, 2009 at 5:05 pm
______
Yeah, but only enough to to get the neocon Taliban base fired up. It’s not like they ACTUALLY care whether the missing white girl is found and receives psychological counseling, or whether that blastocyst has access to health care or a decent educational future once it’s born.
February 20th, 2009 at 5:12 pmThe majority of Iraqis agree with attacks on US troops. That is not acceptance.
February 20th, 2009 at 5:12 pmAt an AEI panel Wednesday
I can just see their smirking, smug faces all knowingly nodding in approval. Was that some kind of group therapy to help wash away any twinges they might feel about the evil they brought upon the people of Iraq?
Oh, I forgot, people without consciences don’t have those kind of twinges.
February 20th, 2009 at 5:13 pmGood God.
February 20th, 2009 at 5:13 pmOK, I’ll believe that.
Provided he goes to Iraq and says it to an Iraqi audience’s face.
February 20th, 2009 at 5:14 pmWhat a disgusting, inhumane thing to say !!
Can we please scrub these scumbags from American life ??
February 20th, 2009 at 5:16 pmFourteen Defining Characteristics of Fascism
# 2. Disdain for the importance of human rights.
The regimes themselves viewed human rights as of little value and a hindrance to realizing the objectives of the ruling elite. Through clever use of propaganda, the population was brought to accept these human rights abuses by marginalizing, even demonizing, those being targeted. When abuse was egregious, the tactic was to use secrecy, denial, and disinformation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVVa1IvHdKc
February 20th, 2009 at 5:16 pm.
Krud Fagan said:
… (”I’m going to anyway”)
.
February 20th, 2009 at 5:17 pmIraqi civilians sort of accept being blown to pieces?
What a despicable human being
And I guess Americans if attacked would never “fight in their cities” because of their moral cultural superiority.
February 20th, 2009 at 5:17 pmYou’re absolutely right, HTH. Points noted.
February 20th, 2009 at 5:18 pm.
Dear Fred Kagan,
I suppose that the troops that have been kept in Iraq as pawns sort of expect to die there, too?
.
February 20th, 2009 at 5:18 pmKAGAN: I think there’s a cultural reason for that: Afghans don’t fight in their cities. Iraqis do. For good or ill, Iraqis expect to fight in their cities.
– - Kagan has inadvertently given us the reason why an Afhgan surge won’t work. Sorry, but that place is an expensive sideshow in blood and money.
The real ground zero is in Pakistan where al-Qaeda has been given safe haven.
February 20th, 2009 at 5:20 pm#23 LTdan said:
… Why? Because he’s white?
.
February 20th, 2009 at 5:22 pmLook at this Fat ass – bet he never had a real job in his life.
February 20th, 2009 at 5:25 pmOur brothers and sisters in Iraq who’s lives have been taken for a lie deserve to be remembered appropriately not put down as inhumanely as this vile human garbage Kagan wants to.
The callous disregard for human life is one of the main reasons people hate us around the world. It is outrageous that more Americans don’t care about this issue, liberal or republican.
When seeking justice for war crimes, torture is second or third to the taking of innocent life in any war. Vietnam, Japan, or Pakistan and many, many more have been victims to Washington’s stupidity, evil, greed, and hubris.
February 20th, 2009 at 5:26 pmIs LTdan contractually obligated to say something stupid on every thread?
He’s sure not putting much effort into it.
February 20th, 2009 at 5:28 pmLTdan Says:
He’s right
I see “He’s” and “right”, but does that make it so?
SURE, I’ll take the troll’s two words for it!
February 20th, 2009 at 5:29 pm#28 LTdan said:
… What? You’re a man?
February 20th, 2009 at 5:29 pmY Dan – it’s like saying Fred only got his job cause he’s white.
What does numbness to irony actually feel like Dan? Is it similar to nausea?
February 20th, 2009 at 5:30 pm…says the guy who commented:
Hughley is an ugly lib racist liar he doesnt deserve his own show.
Sounds like a judgment to me.
danny?
February 20th, 2009 at 5:31 pm“LTdan: phoning it in since November 2008“
February 20th, 2009 at 5:32 pmI tell ya – I have laughed more today than in weeks.
My cheeks are sore and tired (face cheeks – Bert won’t help me with the other ones – at least not for now)
It’s like being at your own wedding and having to smile for the pictures and guests all day long…
These precious Righty fellas are more fun than 2 barrels of armed monkeys.
February 20th, 2009 at 5:32 pmEverytime I see the letters AEI, I brace myself for maxium wingnuttery.
Yesterday one of my aussie workmates I hadn’t seen for a while, told me he admired Obama because he was a true humanitarian.
Made my day.
February 20th, 2009 at 5:34 pmAnd where is that Keltoi – I want to hear about Kagan from someone who is far superior to me – like some brainiacal space alien from an advanced planet where everyone always votes for Ralph Nader.
February 20th, 2009 at 5:34 pmtombaker, have you met LTdan?
I think you two just might hit it off…
February 20th, 2009 at 5:35 pmNow that history is already being unkind to them (the equation is already solved and right-wingers refused to store it in their calculators), they realize they can’t get any lower, so they commence with the poo-flinging.
Iraqis involuntarily took a number for the ideologues at AEI and their reps in control of the executive branch, and they went through the shredder one-by-one.
February 20th, 2009 at 5:38 pmin that case Dan, you’ve cornered the market on homely.
February 20th, 2009 at 5:39 pm… which is why we shouldn’t feel bad about killin’ lots of ‘em, amirite, fred?
February 20th, 2009 at 5:39 pmyour logic train has derailed Pillsbury.
you’re probably just a couple more drinks from making out with me.
can I buy you a round?
February 20th, 2009 at 5:49 pm10 times more than Ben Stein’s did.
February 20th, 2009 at 5:49 pmThey get reborn as lab animals, mostly.
February 20th, 2009 at 5:50 pmas long as you’ve been beating your wife, clever one.
February 20th, 2009 at 5:50 pmand 30 times more than “American Carol” did.
you guys should stick to radio.
February 20th, 2009 at 5:51 pmThat’s not a big deal. It was only a wooden train set to begin with. If Mr. P can get those darn little wheels back in the grooves, his logic train will be back up and chuggin’ round his bedroom in no time!
February 20th, 2009 at 5:52 pmor was that an admission that you’re really an 11-year-old.
you sure argue like one, but I’d been assuming you were a middle-aged white guy who can’t understand why he feels so resentful every day.
February 20th, 2009 at 5:52 pmmaybe that’s what I’ve been missing – this Philby moniker actually beongs to a character in a righty childrens’ book that fundy homeschoolers use to edumacate their young’uns.
in the stories, philby is forever victimized by minorities, and has to find clever solutions to put the brown people and weirdos back in their place – outside the village in the dark and scary forest of scary non-believers.
February 20th, 2009 at 5:55 pmsorry philby – if i was resentful, my face wouldn’t hurt so much from laughing at you all day long.
February 20th, 2009 at 5:56 pmabsolutely tom, we appreciate Mr. P and his efforts to come here and entertain us all day.
Comedy Central gets a little boring, what with repeating shows three times a day.
February 20th, 2009 at 5:58 pmYou sure you wanna play the ‘box office’ makes ‘right’ game, Mr. P?
Top 5 grossing docs. ever…
Rank/Title/Studio/Lifetime Gross
1/Fahrenheit 9/11/Lions/$119,194,771
2/March of the Penguins/WIP/$77,437,223
3/Sicko/LGF/$24,540,079
4/An Inconvenient Truth/ParC/$24,146,161
5/Bowling for Columbine/UA/$21,576,018 248
And given your side’s anti-environmental stance we’ll even take the penguins, sorry :(
February 20th, 2009 at 5:58 pmAnother Kagan NeoNut butt boy bites the dust…what a fat boy he is..must be from sitting on his fat ass in a dark room making up his own personal reality….
February 20th, 2009 at 6:00 pmIt’s a wonder nobody’s fragged Fredo.
February 20th, 2009 at 6:00 pmI thought Mr. Philby was a soviet spy in MI6…
February 20th, 2009 at 6:02 pmLTdan Says:
No he is wrong and you are a moronic ignorant troll without a shred of decency. Go kill yourself. It is the only good you can possibly do the world. This planet will just flat be a better place without you in it.
February 20th, 2009 at 6:03 pmJust because people watched it, doesnt mean they agreed with it.
So you’re now saying that just because people watch Bill O’Reilly it doesn’t mean that people agree with him in any way?
February 20th, 2009 at 6:04 pmThey just listen to Rush ’cause he’s white? They don’t agree with him?
I would say Mr. P is a has-been, but he’s always been a very stupid entity.
February 20th, 2009 at 6:04 pmLTdan Says: 38
True enough dan and you are ugly clear through to the bone.
February 20th, 2009 at 6:06 pmMr. Philby Says: 42
At least liberals DO think Philly conservative morons like you lack the equipment. Didnt Ann Coulter say a Supreme Court justice should be poisoned. Why yes she did. Sounds a lot like conservatives arent above death threats either. MAN you are ignorant
February 20th, 2009 at 6:08 pmMr. Philby Says:
tombaker
How long have you been a sexual predator?
Predator? Whoa — he’s not offering to morph into the profile of a troll, only give them some sugar in the comfort of their own closets. He’s a good guy.
February 20th, 2009 at 6:09 pmMr. Philby Says:
How long have YOU been raping the neighborhood children? How many have you burried in your backyard? Is it as long as you have been competing in the stupidest organic being in the Universe contest?
February 20th, 2009 at 6:09 pmLTdan Says:
Go kill yourself
You must be one of those peaceful libs I hear about
Where’s the inconsistency? The world can’t be a better place if you’re waltzing around killing people.
February 20th, 2009 at 6:10 pmLTdan Says:
You are DEFINITLY one of those moronic trolls the world would be better without
February 20th, 2009 at 6:11 pmDid he really say that? I couldn’t get past the headline. What is wrong with these people?
February 20th, 2009 at 6:22 pm#72 Rich H,
February 20th, 2009 at 6:52 pmIt’s that NEOCON infallibility complex…
I highly approve of the direction this intellectual political discussion is going. Thumbs up, folks!
.
LTdan Says:
Just because people watched it, doesnt mean they agreed with it.
Can I make that argument about Rush Limbaugh?
February 20th, 2009 at 6:54 pmdan and philby,
who lost more today?
:)
almost forgot their friends
bert convy and backup.
*
February 20th, 2009 at 7:24 pmOh man you guys just killed his argument can’t wait to see what’s next on: Dumb troll Part Z
February 20th, 2009 at 7:25 pmKagan, like all neocons, is an incredibly heartless man. In his case, he needs to get his nose out his books and get a does of humanity. Anyone who thinks the deaths of thousands of innocent people (or any for that matter) is worth it to further some dubious political goals is not only wrong, but had a Dick Cheney-like lack of compassion.
February 20th, 2009 at 7:30 pmMr. Philby = Mighty Aphrodite
February 20th, 2009 at 8:23 pm#80,
You’ve been posting here for awhile if you remember Mighty AssOMighty!!
She/he/it used to tell us funny stories about her dead child and her legal career and other goofy sh|t. What a hoot that moron was.
Do you remember Seixon? One of the dumbest trolls ever!
February 20th, 2009 at 9:28 pmFred kagan, there is nothing the iraqis can do about it tthat’s why they don’t say anything, if they know they can do something about stopping the getting civillians killed, they would, so you shut the hell up.
February 20th, 2009 at 9:53 pmAs implied above, Kagan can prove his point just by walking around the streets of Baghdad and spouting his beliefs.
February 20th, 2009 at 10:54 pmrepublicans hate facts Says:
SKdeA Says:
Mr. Philby = Mighty Aphrodite
Nope, that’s Northeastern Dilemma that was OUTED AGES ago and FLED for months when its *REAL* identity was uncovered.
February 20th, 2009 at 10:16 pm
OMG, I’d forgotten all about NorthEastern Dilemma aka NED! He hung out here around the same time as IRI–now, HE was one sick troll!
February 21st, 2009 at 1:29 amKagan better stay away from the local food bank — he’d give a hungry family of four indigestion for a week.
February 21st, 2009 at 1:45 amFat necked piece of sub human scum.
February 21st, 2009 at 9:49 amFred Kagan?
Fred is another COP/neocon that should be held accountable (charged) for starting an ill-conceived war in Iraq.
February 21st, 2009 at 11:13 amCan anyone think of anything more repulsive than a fat bastard, neocon know-it-all who has never served a day in the Armed Services trying to explain the triviality of the war’s impact on Iraqi civilians. There is a special place in hell for guys like this.
February 21st, 2009 at 3:50 pmAEI, like faux news, is full of RepubliCon stooges!
February 21st, 2009 at 6:33 pmThose damn Afghan ingrates, why don’t they suck it up and take it!
February 22nd, 2009 at 8:00 pmImagine the uproar if the word “Israelis” had been substituted for Iraqi. “Israelis really aren’t that upset about collateral damage (civilian deaths), it’s their culture.” There would be screams heard from the north to the south pole.
Kagan is a American who is also a card carrying member of the bloodthirsty Zionist who pushed for the invasion of Iraq, now want to bomb Iran and who are currently starving Palestinian children and preventing medicine from getting into Palestinian hospitals. One Israeli politician laughed about no food getting into Palestine by saying…”We have put them on a diet!” and they wonder why Jews are not held in high esteem?
February 23rd, 2009 at 6:30 am