Whitehouse: ‘Blanket immunity’ that prevents prosecution of Bush officials is a ‘mistake.’
Whitehouse: ‘Blanket immunity’ that prevents prosecution of Bush officials is a ‘mistake.’
Today, the Senate Judiciary Committee is holding a hearing on the creation of a “truth commission” to investigate Bush administration wrongdoings. Sen. Pat Leahy (D-VT) has suggested that the commission may grant “blanket immunity” to Bush officials, though Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) has balked at this idea. Today on MSNBC, Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse (D-RI) said he agreed with Pelosi and cautioned against “blanket immunity” for Bush officials:
WHITEHOUSE: I think the Speaker is absolutely right. The question of when and whether to grant immunity is a very carefully drawn one. … If you’re giving blanket immunities and preventing prosecutions that could and would and should move forward, then you’ve made a mistake.
“[T]he Speaker is dead right that you don’t want blanket immunities that prevent prosecutions from going forward,” he emphasized, “not without a very thoughtful conversation with the prosecutors themselves.” Watch it:
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I think that you should be willing to offer immunity to people or groups of people if they’re willing to testify against superiors, otherwise, let the chips fall where they may.
March 4th, 2009 at 1:12 pmSorry – no “safesies”.
March 4th, 2009 at 1:13 pmI would support limited immunity, maybe. It might be useful, for example, to immunize against contempt of Congress charges for failure to testify in the past. Any immunity must be about relatively minor issues.
March 4th, 2009 at 1:16 pmNo immunity what so ever. If they take the 5th, fine. Make them take the 5Th. If they have immunity they’ll have no reason to “recall” anything. If they know they may wind up in Gitmo, well someone will roll over on someone, and the avalanche will begin.
March 4th, 2009 at 1:17 pmRich S Says:
Whitehouse: ‘Blanket immunity’
I believe most of obamas appointees are taking advantage of immunity, right?
The only thing President Obama has immunity for is stupid republican talking points…
March 4th, 2009 at 1:19 pmPlease, PLEASE – don’t let this just be rhetoric. I’m sick of hearing what needs to be said, but then seeing capitulation and surrender at the end.
STICK TO YOUR GUNS DEMOCRATS – YOU’RE IN COMPLETE CONTROL!!!
And, then, stick it to the Bush criminal misadministration!
March 4th, 2009 at 1:20 pmOk seriously?
March 4th, 2009 at 1:21 pmWhen you start the headline with “Whitehouse” maybe you should say Sen. Whitehouse instead. That way the people won’t get their hopes up that the Obama administration is taking a proactive roll in investigating the previous administration.
Does anybody care what Rich S “believes”? And don’t we all know already that he is “right”, as in right-wing?
March 4th, 2009 at 1:22 pmI think we need a special prosecutor. This is way bigger than consentual adults engaging in sexual behavior. We’re talking war crimes! I suggest David Iglasias.
/partial snark
March 4th, 2009 at 1:22 pmTP this thread title led to disappointment.
=(
March 4th, 2009 at 1:22 pmI can tell our little GOP trolls (I’m looking at you Rich S.) don’t like that their imperial leaders may have to answer for their actions. I guess shedding light on a dark period of our history is too much for them. Cockroaches always slither better in the dark. Slither away Rich!!!
March 4th, 2009 at 1:22 pmGranting selected immunity might be a good idea for lower-level CIA and DOD people who participated in renditions and torture and other illegal activities, if they’re willing to trade this immunity for testimony about who gave the orders and when. If that’s what it takes to get some key people to talk, I say do it. But to grant it to all officials at all levels is problematic if we want justice to be served.
March 4th, 2009 at 1:22 pmkeith and jonathon turley discussed this last night also, talking about the latest disclosure of bushco dictatorship…
the more that comes out, it will be obvious that there will be prosecutions – no immunity…
March 4th, 2009 at 1:24 pm…
Rich S Says:
————————————————————-
Whitehouse: ‘Blanket immunity’
I believe most of obamas appointees are taking advantage of immunity, right?
Thanks for sharing that belief of yours, Rich. Now here’s what I believe: you’re an off-topic moron.
Next?
March 4th, 2009 at 1:24 pmWhy should they be given immunity. They are subpoenaed and they testify under oath. They take they tell the truth or they commit perjury. Or they take the 5th and somebody else testifies against them. Why does this system work for everybody but members of the Bush administration.
March 4th, 2009 at 1:24 pmTallygirl, they may be headed that way. Jonathan Turley talked about that on Kieth last night. He speculated that the drip drip drip of damning memos that are coming out of the Justice dept now that bush stooges wrote is part of a campaign by the Obama Administration to drum up popular support for a real investigation.
March 4th, 2009 at 1:24 pmHi Katy,
you beat me to it.
March 4th, 2009 at 1:26 pmot – but just found this at C&L… it will be very interesting to see who shows up for this… better not be any dems there…
Sun Myung Moon’s organization has scheduled another event on Capitol Hill [for WOMEN]
http://www.moontribune.com/cult/2009/03/03/sun-myung-moon-has-scheduled-another-event-on-capitol-hill/
March 4th, 2009 at 1:26 pmBobwurst Says: You may be right about that, but Dems in congress can’t muck up the works by granting immunity.
March 4th, 2009 at 1:27 pmNo more! Remember what happened to Bill Clinton? They prosecuted him for an affair! Meanwhile, Bush and his cronies lied us into a war, stole all our money, used the Constituion as toilet paper, gave no-bid contracts to immoral businesses such as Haliburton and Blackwater.( Oops, I guess it’s Xe now. ???) If this was revised and a Democratic president did all of this, don’t you think the Repugs would be screaming bloody murder?
March 4th, 2009 at 1:27 pmWhen you start down the “immunity” road, it becomes a slippery slope. Congress has to decide:
1- Is the United States of America willing to prosecute AND punish the war criminals that DEVASTATED our core values and our way of life?
2- OR… Is the United States of America willing to collect all the evidence and turn over prosecution to the International Courts?
If its #1 – NO IMMUNITY. Period! We have more than enough evidence out there already.
If its #2 – FULL IMMUNITY TO ALL. Let the finger pointing begin. Gather it all and send it to the HAGUE.
March 4th, 2009 at 1:28 pmBobwurst and Tallygirl, I agree that there seems to be an effort to create a “tipping point”. No “rush”, but instead a deliberate, thoughtful, strategic presentation of truth. Wonderful!
March 4th, 2009 at 1:29 pmThese guys all said it better than I could so:
“Man perfected by society is the best of all animals; he is the most terrible of all when he lives without law, and without justice.”
-ARISTOTLE
“If we do not maintain Justice, Justice will not maintain us.”
-Francis Bacon
“Equal and exact justice to all men, of whatever state or persuasion, religious or political; peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations,—entangling alliances with none; the support of the State governments in all their rights, as the most competent administrations for our domestic concerns, and the surest bulwarks against anti-republican tendencies; the preservation of the general government in its whole constitutional vigour, as the sheet anchor of our peace at home and safety abroad; …freedom of religion; freedom of the press; freedom of person under the protection of the habeas corpus; and trial by juries impartially selected, — these principles form the bright constellation which has gone before us, and guided our steps through an age of revolution and reformation.”
-T. JEFFERSON
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”
-Clarence Darrow
“Justice consists not in being neutral between right and wrong, but in finding out the right and upholding it, wherever found, against the wrong.”
-T. ROOSEVELT
“The best way to enhance freedom in other lands is to demonstrate here that our democratic system is worthy of emulation.”
-JIMMY CARTER
And for a touch of levity may I offer:
“Tell the truth and be honest. Don’t cheat or steal….And always remember: You are responsible for the decisions you make.”
- GEORGE W. BUSH, address at Texas A&M University, April 6, 1998
“George Bush’s record as a student, military man, businessman and leader of the free world is one of constant failure. And the part that troubles me most is he seems content with himself.
He will leave office with the country $10 trillion in debt, fighting two wars, our international reputation in shambles, our government cloaked in secrecy and suspicion that his entire presidency has been a litany of broken laws and promises, our citizens’ faith in our own country ripped to shreds. Yet Bush goes bumbling along, grinning and spewing moronic one-liners, as though nobody understands what a colossal failure he has been.”
-JACK CAFFERTY
March 4th, 2009 at 1:29 pmhello bobwurst… the more the merrier, not?
March 4th, 2009 at 1:30 pmRich S = bullit4us?
March 4th, 2009 at 1:30 pmI’d be happy as hell to give a “blanket party” for those in the criminal Bush administration!
Those in the military will know what I’m talking about.
March 4th, 2009 at 1:31 pm‘Blanket immunity’ that prevents prosecution of Bush officials is a ‘mistake.’”
No sh!t Sherlock…every single member of the Bush Mafia was and is a criminal…prosecute them all.
March 4th, 2009 at 1:36 pmSounds like you’ve covered all the important ground, Rich — nice to see you’ve learned the key lessons from the last 10-15 years; that should make the next 8 much more enlightening for you…
March 4th, 2009 at 1:36 pm1st their = the
my bad
March 4th, 2009 at 1:40 pmI hope that Bush, Cheney and the rest are prosecuted. I have a bad feeling that they will get away with these war crimes, etc.
March 4th, 2009 at 1:40 pmHow about this, extend immunity to Bush and Bush only – in the event he cooperates with bringing down the rest of his cabal. That way we preserve at least some of the dignity of the office of POTUS and a lot of bad people go to jail for their rest of their lives.
March 4th, 2009 at 1:40 pm.
Immunity for those who can answer:
“Who’s orders were you following?”
.
March 4th, 2009 at 1:40 pmding!
by jove i think he’s GOT it!
March 4th, 2009 at 1:47 pmthe brown acid Says:
“How about this, extend immunity to Bush…”
Sounds good tba, but may I suggest that after Bush gives up the (pet) goat and we lock the prison gates behind his minions that President Obama rescind the immunity offer ala Bush/Isaac Toussie and there brief pardon deal? THEN we nail the dictator chimp to the friggin’ wall!
March 4th, 2009 at 1:51 pmRich S Says:
March 4th, 2009 at 1:54 pm(Ding!)
A Patriot Acting Says:
Sounds good tba, but may I suggest that after Bush gives up the (pet) goat and we lock the prison gates behind his minions that President Obama rescind the immunity offer ala Bush/Isaac Toussie and there brief pardon deal? THEN we nail the dictator chimp to the friggin’ wall!
Retracting immunity wouldn’t be necessary: at that point the international community would step in.
WE, however, need to be the ones handling any upper level prosecutions to regain some respect and dignity in the world. If the international court has to do it, our reputation will slide even further in the world (hard to imagine that’s possible after the Bush Dictatorship….).
March 4th, 2009 at 1:55 pmMax-1 you are dead on. Hunt down some of the sh!t flowers that bloomed under turd blossom and offer them some type of immunity.
The country needs this, but the National Archives thinks it’s better to put their resources in documents from the 1940’s instead of the missing emails.
March 4th, 2009 at 1:57 pmThere’s a good article over at The Free Press on this very issue. David Swanson makes a pretty compelling case for an independent prosecutor and ends with many quotes from organizations and politicians previous quotes to support his arguement. Worth a read:
March 4th, 2009 at 1:57 pmhttp://www.freepress.org/departments/display/20/2009/3381
what incentive are you offering to the whistle blowers?
an opportunity to “clear their consciences”?
get real!
less demagoguery, more convictions please.
March 4th, 2009 at 1:58 pmThe only blanket “anything” I want for the Bush Adminsitration is a blanket and buckets and buckets of water to pour on them to make them fess up to the destruction of our country and its ideals. Since they think waterboarding is ok, lets use it on them.
March 4th, 2009 at 2:02 pmCageyCretin – I’m on board with you on that. I was being a bit snarky in that post. The United States has signed various treaties at least one of which promises the international body that if torture has been shown to have been carried out/condoned by those in the US that we WILL investigate and prosecute. We as a nation need to show the world that we can clean up our own mess and continue to be a beacon of fairness and democracy to the world. Until such a time we bear the responsibilities and part of the blame for the Bush Administrations war crimes. Torture? NOT IN MY NAME…EVER!!
March 4th, 2009 at 2:03 pmNO IMMUNITY FOR THE WAR CRIMINALS! GET A SPECIAL PROSECUTOR! If this administration let these War Criminals get away with it, not only they will OWN their crimes and obstruct JUSTICE, nut they can forget that slogan crap of ‘restoring America’s moral stand in the World’. Forget it!
March 4th, 2009 at 2:04 pmObama, it is taking a bit too much time for the SHOW to start!
HAGUE NOW!
I just e-mailed Sen. Leahy objecting to his talk of blanket immunity.
I suggest others do the same:
Contact Sen. Leahy
March 4th, 2009 at 2:04 pmFlag the f ucking trolls.
We’re letting them trash this place AGAIN.
March 4th, 2009 at 2:07 pmhellinabucket,
Speaking of not examining the past…
… Examining 1940’s is looking forward, YES?
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Bush_emails_not_priority_Congress_budgets_0304.html
Maybe in 2075 we can open the Bush files?
.
March 4th, 2009 at 2:09 pmIs this live on C-Span?
March 4th, 2009 at 2:13 pmThe eponymous Right gets the like of John Yoo and Condoleeza Rice positioned at University so as to FAIL future Obamas. Epic FAIL.
March 4th, 2009 at 2:15 pmRich S and other trolls — the polls are out. Nothing is on the side of your party. Nothing. I don’t take your power-grab-motivated complaints serious, I just use them as a gage of the majority’s performance.
My favorite number out yesterday is how people feel about the country’s direction. Obama’s been in office 1 1/2 months and that number took a boost 20+ percentage points from where Bush left off.
Go learn a thing or two about politics. You have to be in touch with people, not seek power for the sake of power.
Sorry for the O/T.
March 4th, 2009 at 2:18 pmI suspect that Bush provided all members of his administration, past and up to his leaving office, with blanket pardons.
There is still shit coming out about what Chimpy did in his last days. Maybe Leahy has been apprised that such “double super secret” pardons are out there. Only time will tell…
What I’m loving is the trickle of information about BushCo crimes. Put a little out there, allow it to be reporting, a-nalyzed and discussed, let people absorb and understand what it means, and then release the next set of damning docs. Rinse, repeat. This way a much larger segment of the population will understand the magnitude and extent of what occurred under rule of Republican Organized Crime.
PEACE
March 4th, 2009 at 2:19 pmA mistake my ass; it is unconscionable!
March 4th, 2009 at 2:19 pmIf the leaders of my country are not held accountable to the law, then why should I be held accountable to it? Blanket immunity for the Bush crime cabal just leads to anarchy in America. Honestly, you want to punish me for trivial crimes, but Cheney publicly confesses to torture and you want to give him immunity? Why in gods name would I ever obey any law ever again? If the law applies to me but not to BushCo, its time to take up arms until justice is restored in America.
March 4th, 2009 at 2:24 pmThe encouragement of being told that accountability is not off the table after all is great, but I think something constructive needs to be done. I liked the release of the memos. That was great. But how will those who seek accountability kick aside any hesitation and develop come kind of investigating organization structure? How do we get this horse riding?
March 4th, 2009 at 2:25 pmThe Obama administration should focus on needed business dealing with our failing economy brought on by the past criminal administration. Instead a special prosecutor should be hired (after all a stain on a blue dress was investigated in this way)investigate and make public to all the horrors of criminal activity created by the gangsters involved in the bush administration.
Public outcry would hang these criminals and the goppers could not spin and smear the Obama administration as they are chopping at the bit to do.
An exposure of the crimes by a special prosecutor would end the republican party.
March 4th, 2009 at 2:34 pmSen. Whitehouse is completely correct when he said,
“If you’re giving blanket immunities and preventing prosecutions that could and would and should move forward, then you’ve made a mistake.”
Bravo! Sen Whitehouse and steady on.
American’s deserve the truth and criminals deserve to be in jail.
March 4th, 2009 at 2:46 pmFor Pete Sake’s, let the prosecutors lead! I am going to pull out my thinning shanks and curl up and die if cart blanch immunity is granted. Can’t our Democratic representatives get something right quickly and the first time…. aaaahh..
March 4th, 2009 at 2:56 pmlate in posting — but if conservatives don’t support crime-fighting, then we’re forced to proclaim:
Republicans are soft on crime — at all levels.
March 4th, 2009 at 4:23 pmEverytime there is a commission to investigate something at best only a white-washed version of the truth comes out. That’s the way it was for the Warren Commission. That’s the way it was for the 9/11 Commission. This is what happens when political elites investigate their own.
Blanket immunity is a crazy idea. And a “truth commission” should not replace the possibiity of prosecution. If there is a commission – in addition to investigations and trials – who is on it will make a big difference as to how independent it will be.
March 4th, 2009 at 4:25 pmThere is not one thing that can be proven to prosecute George Bush, if he did lie you can’t put him in jail just for lying about the war.
March 4th, 2009 at 4:27 pmPelosi is absolutley correct. Blanket immunity will not help. What will help are the crooks that will come forward to save their asses. Blanket immunity is giving too much control to the crooks. Why would they have any incentive to testify? For the the good of our Nation? Yeah right.
Fear will get their rotten asses out of the woodwork fast.
March 4th, 2009 at 4:35 pmI believe the lib judges are the ones setting baby rapers free on a daily basis
March 4th, 2009 at 4:37 pm— Sure and I suppose you think women are having babies to increase their welfare checks…
kevin1 Says:
There is not one thing that can be proven to prosecute George Bush, if he did lie you can’t put him in jail just for lying about the war.
That big lie of his has snowballed into a dirty mass of repug scum.
March 4th, 2009 at 4:40 pmyou have to offer protections. period.
no one will come forward without guaranteed protection.
it’s stupid to argue this.
March 4th, 2009 at 4:41 pmdbadass
You can say that again
March 4th, 2009 at 4:44 pmWe shall not load up the law with porklusus.
March 4th, 2009 at 4:45 pmBoth are true. Want proof?
—Sure why not and why not prove to me that ketchup is a veggie and that Al Gore claimed to have invented the internet and that Clinton staffers vandalized the WhiteHouse.
March 4th, 2009 at 4:51 pmdang, i thought it was the actual WHITE HOUSE saying this, & i thought, “FINALLY, WE’RE GETTING SOMEWHERE!”
March 4th, 2009 at 5:19 pmWhat the hell? How long is this proof gonna take?
March 4th, 2009 at 5:31 pmkevin1 Says:
There is not one thing that can be proven to prosecute George Bush, if he did lie you can’t put him in jail just for lying about the war.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
First of all you have no way of knowing that is true BEFORE the investigation and second YES, you CAN. IF he lied to or even MISLED Congress about the war then he impeded their ability to do their job and THAT is a crime knowin as perpetrating a fraud on the United States. Several of the Watergate conspiritors went to prison for EXACTLY that.
March 4th, 2009 at 5:38 pmRich S Says:
Republicans are soft on crime — at all levels.
I believe the lib judges are the ones setting baby rapers free on a daily basis.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I am sure you believe a whole bunch of idiotic stupidity just like that. This has WHAT to do with reality? YOUR stupidity really isnt that relevant.
March 4th, 2009 at 5:40 pmdbadass Says:
What the hell? How long is this proof gonna take?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
My guess would be until the seas dry up and the stars burn out and fall out of the sky since its patently false. Rich is a liar and a fool
March 4th, 2009 at 5:42 pmIt looks like Obama is failing already. Just look at your 401k or 403B and tell me with a straight face that you made money in your retirement. I’ve lost about 30 percent since the end of January and still doesn’t look good.
Just look at the facts.
March 4th, 2009 at 5:45 pmblclem Says:
and I’m sure your 401k was just SOARING back in December, right? Just look at the facts, indeed.
March 4th, 2009 at 5:48 pmblclem Says:
Obama has been president for a little over a month. YOU MORONS were backing Bush all 8 years and blaming Clinton for everything up to the sinking of the Titanic and because Obama hasnt fixed Bush’s collosal failures in a single month makes HIM a failure. You are not only a hypocrite you are astonishingly stupid
March 4th, 2009 at 6:00 pmThese ignorant wingnuts are astonishingly stupid and disengenuous. Blaming Obama for the bad economy is about like taking your car to a mechanic AFTER you crashed it into a tree then coming back an hour later and telling him that HE ruined your car.
March 4th, 2009 at 6:04 pmIt looks like Obama is failing already. Just look at your 401k or 403B and tell me with a straight face that you made money in your retirement. I’ve lost about 30 percent since the end of January and still doesn’t look good.
—
March 4th, 2009 at 6:04 pmHave you noticed you haven’t been attacked by terrorists who hate your freedom since the inauguration? See Mr Obama has succeeded already in protecting the nation from attack
These ignorant wingnuts are astonishingly stupid and disengenuous. Blaming Obama for the bad economy is about like taking your car to a mechanic AFTER you crashed it into a tree then coming back an hour later and telling him that HE ruined your car.
March 4th, 2009 at 7:00 pm
“Bush’s Mental Condition . . . In this extract from his book, The Hubris Syndrome, Lord David Owen speculates on whether George W. Bush suffers from alcoholism, ADHD, narcissistic personality disorder and displays some of the symptoms of megalomania” (Retrieved November 12, 2008, from http://addhelpsite.com/tag/george-w-bush /).
Bush may or may not plead insanity relative to his crimes.
Bush may or may not be sent to an insane asylum.
Submitted by Andrew Yu-Jen Wang
March 5th, 2009 at 3:35 amB.S., Summa Cum Laude, 1996
Messiah College, Grantham, PA
Lower Merion High School, Ardmore, PA, 1993
Again I am amazed at the level of abject hatred coming from the so called “tolerent” left. Will we go back and investigate Clintons dealings with the chinese. or marc rich or yada yada yada we all throw stones .. be careful what you wish for. Will some day a group be screaming oput for Obama’s economic policies which are already failing be investigated and the eveil one proscuted … ya’ll need to get a grip on your hatred
March 5th, 2009 at 4:15 amgivemelibertyordeath Says:
Once again I am astonished at the incredible STUPIDITY of people like YOU. Clinton was the most investigated president of all time because of the irrational hatred of morons like YOU from the ignorant right. Since you are flat too stupid to even understand the concept of irony you accuse US of the very thing YOU are most guilty of. You people are morons. Go for it. Why do you want to shield Bush from accountability? You hypocrites are pathetic. Go crawl back under your rock you idiot. The adults are in charge now.
March 5th, 2009 at 4:26 amSo what you’re saying Eugene is that it was OK for Bill Clinton to lie to Congress. It was also fine with you that Hillary lied about having FBI files.
Nice. Bill should also be investigated for his policy to torture people in Kosovo and in Somalia.
How about Nancy Pelosi when she was advised of the torture policies in Gitmo in 2002 and 2003. She admitted that she knew what was going on back then.
Lets be thorough in the investigations after all “no one is above the law”, her very words.
Lets get to it.
March 5th, 2009 at 11:44 amAll of this emotion tends to obscure the most important issue by far, and it is the one that will determine what sort of America that our children inherit. The question is this: Does the President, as Commander in Chief, have the power to suspend the provisions of the Constitution for national security reasons? John Yoo wrote some memos saying he does.
This is a bipartisan question, as Presidents of both parties have done it. For example, FDR in 1942 suspended the Constitutional rights of thousands of American citizens and locked them in internment camps without trial or recourse.
There is also a rumor that the Government has an emergency plan to be implemented in the event of a large national disaster or terrorist attack that would suspend all civil law and rights, placing the whole country under martial law at the discretion of the President.
So the question, for all liberals and conservatives, is whether the President serves under the Constitution, or vice versa. I think you will agree that if the Constitution exists only at the pleasure of the President we will have a very different country.
When all the current fuss over the Bush actions are over, we need to have a clear answer to this question for future administrations.
March 5th, 2009 at 12:34 pmThe President has the power to suspend Habeas Corpus already.
It was used many times during national emergencies. Even Obama’s most favorite President has done it, Abraham Lincoln.
The President has to do what he has to do to keep this country and it’s citizens safe. That is in the Constitution.
You do have a good argument though. Putting a President on trial for doing what he is elected to do does not bring a country closer together like all the Liberals keep shouting, it only serves to drive the country apart.
This is the tactic of the left and right. They have to do this to stay in power or to regain power. That is quite evident in the latest attempt to focus on Rush Limbaugh. They need demons right now to mask what they intend to do. Bush is gone so the focus has to be shifted to someone else.
If you look at all the posts on this site in any subject you can see it.
No coming together here only driving people apart. Of course the left will blame the Republicans for this but they do show their true intentions. Not discussions only shouting and name calling.
I have to say this though, I have met some nice people here who like to discuss things even if we didn’t agree.
No one is going to change each others minds here so there is really no need to try. All one can do is express one’s opinions. The 1st amendment so to speak.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:09 pmJay,
March 5th, 2009 at 1:29 pmI must have missed those items in the Constitution. Where is the power to suspend habeas corpus described? Where is the provision that the President’s job is to keep us safe, and it overrides the rest of the Constitution?
The fact that Presidents have done something is different from showing that it was legal. That was my point, as was the fact that it is a dangerously bipartisan issue.
OK, I found the habeas corpus clause in the Constitution. It applies to invasion or rebellion. I still haven’t found the other one.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:36 pmI’m happy that you are doing your own research. You may consider the fact that the President is also the Commander and Chief of the armed forces and that gives him the authority to enact the “War Powers Act”. Was the attack on 9/11 an attack on the nation? I would say yes especially when a foreign group openly declared war on the United States and continues to do so.
Also when has a captured combatant or a prisoner of war been allowed habeas corpus under the Geneva Convention???
Many things to consider here. It’s not so cut and dry as many would have you believe.
Some things to consider. If the attacks were allowed to continued then would it of been considered a national emergency? I think so. Only the thwarting of those attacks buy the Government prevented that from happening.
March 5th, 2009 at 2:06 pmAnother thing to consider here. Bush did get approval from Congress to invade Iraq. Many would shout that he lied to Congress. Well if he did or didn’t is for someone else to deal with.
Many on the left would disagree that he did but since 1998 people like Nancy Pelosi and Hillary Clinton were shouting that Saddam did have WMD’s and he should be taken out. Pelosi especially because she was the Ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence committee that was supposed to keep track of such things. Now you need to look at the time line here. 1998 was before Bush took office.
It was later stated by Pelosi and Hillary as late as 2003.
These things are often (and I think purposely) forgotten by many.
March 5th, 2009 at 2:24 pmThe War Powers act is irrelevant as it cannot supercede the Constitution. The Supreme Ct held, 5 to 4, that Gitmo detainees had habeas corpus rights. See the Wikip article for the citations.
March 5th, 2009 at 2:56 pmYou have blown a lot of smoke but you are avoiding the question. Do you believe that the President has the power to suspend the Constitution or sections thereof? If so, where does he get that power?
liberty101 Says:
The War Powers act is irrelevant as it cannot supercede the Constitution. The Supreme Ct held, 5 to 4, that Gitmo detainees had habeas corpus rights. See the Wikip article for the citations.
You have blown a lot of smoke but you are avoiding the question. Do you believe that the President has the power to suspend the Constitution or sections thereof? If so, where does he get that power?
No smoke just a discussion going on here. At least I’m trying to have one. If you think it’s smoke then you need to get over it.
The President is allowed to suspend certain rights under the war powers act. I think you know that. As Commander and Chief and during times of war some liberties can and routinely suspended.
Do you think I don’t know what the supreme Court has ruled? That doesn’t mean I have to agree with it.
If you think that Bush did something wrong in his administration that’s fine. I didn’t agree with many things he did either. But many of those things were don with the knowledge of Congress. They weren’t done alone.
There are many in this country that were responsible for his decisions, both Democrats and Republicans, and they need to answer for them. ALL of them not just Republicans.
Time will tell if Bush was right or wrong in what he did my only hope is that the focus will come on all those involved.
Obama now has continued with many of the policies Bush has been using. He is not so quick to change certain things that many Liberals are complaining about. Do you see that going on?
As far as where he gets the power, well as Commander in Chief he gets a lot of power. He also gets some of the power from Congress as he has done. He also get some of his power from the Constitution and through executive privilege. You know Executive privilege. It’s what Obama has been taking advantage of with that magic pen of his. If the President oversteps his power then it is up to Congress to reign him in.
How’s that for smoke. Plain language. Hey I don’t have all the answers and I doubt that you do either. I’m just discussing what I think.
What are you looking for from me? Bush should be drawn and Quartered. I don’t think he should be. But if you’re going to convict someone then convict all the people responsible for the decisions made during the Bush administration. That will include many Democrats also.
March 5th, 2009 at 3:24 pmHere is a question for you. If a Congressman or women was briefed on torture and they knew it was against the Constitution, are they bound by the Secrecy act??
March 5th, 2009 at 3:26 pmJay,
March 5th, 2009 at 4:52 pmLet me be as clear as I can. First, this is not about Bush. Read my first post. This is a bipartisan problem.
Second, your responses indicate the scope of the problem in that you think that Congress can pass a law that essentially amends the Constitution (war powers) which of course they cannot.
“As Commander and Chief and during times of war some liberties can and routinely suspended.”
Under the Constitution they cannot and I don’t know where you get that. That kind of process has been the means by which many democratic countries have descended into tyranny. It is the process by which an elected executive assumes dictatorial powers.
It is something the framers of the Constitution specifically designed the document to prevent. As one of them wrote “Let us hear no more of trust in men but tie them down with the chains of the Constitution.”
Ben Franklin has been quoted as saying “We have given you a Republic, if you can keep it.” Were your interpretations to prevail, Jay, we will have lost it.
Well then you missed about 200 years of history. If the Supreme court can change the meaning of the Constitution with a ruling or read into it what is politically correct at the time then there is a problem
Presidents have done many things under the Constitution and while in office. It is up to the Congress to keep the President in line. When that fails then it is up to the people. Did I say it was just a Republican thing? I don’t think so.
You conveniently skipped over my question twice. Presidents will do what they do. What are you going to do about it? This country hasn’t gone by the Constitution for the past 200 years.
We have already “Lost it” Liberty. I made my opinions made in my past replies to you. Sorry if it’s not sufficient for you. I’m not going to keep repeating myself.
Look, I have lived through Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Carter, Ford, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II and now hope to live through Obama. None of those Presidents have gone strictly by the Constitution.
Now back to my question. If a Congressman or woman are briefed on a policy that they know is unconstitutional or illegal are they bound by the Secrecy Act????
March 5th, 2009 at 5:22 pmI have to leave for a while. I’ll read your reply when I get back. It was nice talking with you. You didn’t call me one name in all our conversations. I thank you for that. It’s rare here.
March 5th, 2009 at 5:24 pmNO IMMUNITY FOR FORMER WHITE HOUSE STAFF, THE BUSH CRIME FAMILY OR THE PEOPLE INVOLVED WITH THE FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS,
March 10th, 2009 at 9:04 amOIL COMPANIES OR WALL STREET! THESE PEOPLE KNEW EXACTLY WHAT THEY WERE DOING AND HAVE BIG PROFITS TO PROVE IT. THEY SHOULD ALL BE TRIED, CONVICTED, STRIPPED OF THEIR ASSETS AND JAILED
FOR A LONG TIME. RE-INVESTIGATE 9/11, ALL THE WARS STARTED BY THE US AND ENGLAND, BOHEIMIAN GROVE, AND THE 2000 ELECTION. INVESTIGATE CONGRESS THE FBI, CIA, IRS, BLACK WATER, HALIBURTON AND ANYONE ELSE THAT SMELLS LIKE A THIEF,IS OR HAS BEEN CAUGHT IN A LIE, STOP THE MONOPOLIES AND STOP THE CORRUPTION IN THE FDA. TURN THE WATCH DOGS INTO BULLDOGS AND LET THEM CLEAN HOUSE. AND RELEASE THE MARIJUANA AND METH USERS TO MAKE ROOM FOR THE REAL CRIMINALS. LETS QUIT PUNISHING PEOPLE FOR VICTIMLESS CRIMES.
I have twice had first hand expierance on being convicted for somethings I did not do, so as far as I am concerned the Courts, Cops, Congress and Public Officials should be more focused on getting at the Truth rather then the conviction.
March 10th, 2009 at 9:38 amIn my opinion the reason they don’t uncover the truth more often is because they don’t investigate enough and they don’t care as long as they are on the winning side and getting paid.
And yes if a member of congress keeps a crime a secret he is aiding and abetting. If he fails to impeach when the people say to impeach, then he or she should also be impeached.
Our Country is supposed to be about Truth and Justice for all not just for some. There are so many liars, hippocrites, theives and cowards in this country that it makes me sick. And Angry. We the people through our greed and ignorance are destroying our own country as well as a large portion of the rest of the World. We should all be ashamed of what we are doing or what we are allowing to be done, we are all guilty of one or the other. We are devidedas a people and as the saying goes devided we fall, and we are definatley falling.