Rep. Wamp: Healthcare Is A ‘Privilege,’ Not A ‘Right’ For All Americans
Rep. Wamp: Healthcare Is A ‘Privilege,’ Not A ‘Right’ For All Americans
Today, President Obama is hosting a summit to discuss reforming the nation’s health care system with “about 150 elected officials and representatives of groups that have much at stake in the outcome.” In response, Rep. Zach Wamp (R-TN) went on MSNBC to explain his opposition to Obama’s stated goal of comprehensive health care reform, arguing that health care is “a privilege,” not a right:
WAMP: Listen, health care a privilege. [...]
MSNBC: Well, it’s a privilege? Health care? I mean if you have cancer right now, do you see it as a privilege to get treatment?
WAMP: I was just about to say, for some people it’s a right. But for everyone, frankly, it’s not necessarily a right.
Wamp went on to claim that many Americans are uninsured by choice because they “rejected” the insurance plan offered by their employers. Asked to respond to Wamp, Sen. Sherrod Brown (D-OH) remarked “Well my reaction is that it was said by somebody who has a really good health [insurance] plan as a member of the House of Representatives.” “More importantly than that [health care] is a right in this country,” Brown concluded. Watch a compilation:
Aside from the fact that healthcare for Americans cannot — from an economic or a humanitarian stand point — be viewed as a privilege, Wamp is misrepresenting exactly why so many Americans lack coverage. Indeed, as the Kaiser Family foundation documented, 64 percent of American workers who are uninsured are not actually offered an employer-sponsored health care plan. In all, just 20 percent of uninsured workers who are offered employer-sponsored coverage decline to participate.
Further, those workers — and low-wage workers in particular — who decline to participate in employer-sponsored plans often do so because they are unable to afford coverage, even with the contributions offered by their employers. As such, it is not surprising that between 52 and 59 percent of all uninsured Americans come from low-income families.
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Wamp: If people can’t afford health care, then they should die and decrease the surplus population.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:16 pmPerhaps it is simply time for we, the voters, to force our elected officials to provide for their own health care. What say you, Rep Wamp (R-TN)?
March 5th, 2009 at 1:17 pmWAMP: I was just about to say, for some people it’s a right. But for everyone, frankly, it’s not necessarily a right.
‘Cause two Americas is good for everyone! sotto voce: everyone in the privileged America that is…
Damn those irresponsible sick people!
March 5th, 2009 at 1:18 pmLimbaugh must be pleased with his acolyte. He will get an extra ration of the kool-aid.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:18 pmThis ought to draw in all the macho-man Righties, to lecture us all about personal responsibility and hard work and bootstraps, and all those other tired old mythical saws…
…should be entertaining.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:19 pmIt it’s not a right, then he should set an example and opt out of Congerss’ health care system. Let him find a provider for himself and his family. Then he can pay the premiums and deal with the paperwork all on his own. Then he can face the joys pre-existing conditions, deductables and denied services just like everybody else.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:20 pmTime to drain the (s)wamp.
I say we eliminate all congressional health care coverage until we see Universal, single payer w/o insurance in the ‘middle’.
Let these Congress Critters see what it’s like to stand in line hoping someone will see you today.
Healthcare is a privilege? So is serving in Congress…
March 5th, 2009 at 1:21 pmWAMP: I was just about to say, for some people it’s a right. But for everyone, frankly, it’s not necessarily a right.
Okay… who are those special people for whom health care is a right?
And how are they different from the rest of us?
March 5th, 2009 at 1:22 pm.
Dear Daryyl,
What did Jesus charge for his health care services?
Did he offer tax rebates and mortgage discounts for the homeless so that they could afford his services?
.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:23 pmralph the wonder llama Says:
WAMP: I was just about to say, for some people it’s a right. But for everyone, frankly, it’s not necessarily a right.
Okay… who are those special people for whom health care is a right?
And how are they different from the rest of us?
Think “Great Gatsby”, Ralph.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:24 pmKeep it up , Wanky, er Wampy. Even Tenneseeans will get fed up with this crap eventually.
GOP
Going Obsolete, Promptly.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:25 pmHas anyone asked Mr. Wamp what he believe ARE rights?
March 5th, 2009 at 1:25 pmYou know, other than to carry guns and for embryos to exist unfettered and whatnot..
geez – I sure hope Rep. Wamp had permission to say that stuff.
Sure, it sounds like RL-grade nuttery, but nonetheless, to go out talking to the press without the expressed, written consent of the Master and Owner of R men, he may be in a bit of trouble.
These guys better just sit down, shut up, and let RL do 100% of their talking for them.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:25 pm.
O.K. now that my preemptive Daryyl rant is out…
… If my employer doesn’t offer insurance and I’m a renter, how do I get the needed health CARE when the help is going to home owners only?
.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:26 pmMax-1 ~ Didn’t Jesus run a cut rate HMO?
March 5th, 2009 at 1:26 pmYes, getting your arm set after a bicycle accident is a privilege which should be reserved only for those children who are very rich. The poor can set their own god damn bones.
The reality is that our country does recognize that medical care is a right and we spend a fortune, more than most other countries, providing emergency care to a large segment of the population. It would be far more cost effective to provide preventive care which helped to ensure that routine medical problems didn’t become emergencies.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:28 pmTamron Hall, the MSNBC anchor, was clearly astounded when Wamp made this statement. I watched that interview and she keep asking him to clearly define who has a “right”. Hall generally is a pleasant sort but she was obviously not pleased and abruptly ended the interview.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:30 pm.
Rights?
Who needs Rights?
Bush got rid of Rights, right?
.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:30 pmI suppose the bas+ard means the rich and powerful have the RIGHT to health care and the poor and uninsured have no right to health care.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:31 pmRUCerious,
From what I’ve read He charges an arm and a leg. And sometimes an eye or two…
… Oh, wait – what? He healed arms, legs, and eyes?
Oh, I need BIg D to school me sum more, no?
.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:33 pmA fertilized egg has a right to life, but not a right to healthcare after it’s born.
After all, health care is not one of the “inalienable rights” in the Constitution, er, Declaration of Independence.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:34 pmWhen I heard last night that Barbara Bush was in hospital recovering from open heart surgery, all I could think of was how lucky she is to have healthcare.
Wonder if a poor person, with the same heart condition as Babs, died yesterday because of no access/no money?
PEACE
March 5th, 2009 at 1:34 pmWamp went on to claim that many Americans are uninsured by choice because they “rejected” the insurance plan offered by their employers
Sure. And most people on welfare choose not to work because they’re lazy and just want to live the good life on a couple hundred bucks a month.
Wingnuts sure do love them some fairy tales, don’t they?
March 5th, 2009 at 1:35 pm.
It’s unfortunate that AMERICANS aren’t privileged to have affordable health care.
The RIGHT TO LIFER Party seems to think not all AMERICANS have the RIGHT TO LIFE.
.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:36 pmSo I guess Barbara Bush has a right to the privilege of Health Care?
March 5th, 2009 at 1:36 pmThe American Taliban has accused Democrats of fomenting Class Warfare for a long time now. Yet it seems every time one of these AT Clowns opens his/her mouth, it sounds strangely like Class Warfare. Especially when it comes to Health Care.
Just sayin…..
“We hold these truths to be self evident, that some men are created more equal than the majority”
March 5th, 2009 at 1:36 pmI think you have to be versed in the Rumsfeldian Language to understand this. Health care is a right for the priveleged right while it is a privelege for those who are not right in their alignment with the priveleged right. Right?
March 5th, 2009 at 1:37 pmWell, if Healthcare isn’t a right, then he won’t mind if Congress votes itself no healthcare for any of it’s members.. I’m mean that’s socialism, right?
Members of Congress should pay for their own healthcare, it shouldn’t be the responsibility of the taxpayers, why should the taxpayers pay for their privilege?
March 5th, 2009 at 1:38 pm#22 Dr. Hussein Matt,
He’s living off the fat of the land…
… And the (R)ushpublickin’ Party.
I’m a socialist because I want what he has…
… And what he has is health care through a socialized system.
But it’s not socialism when Wamp partakes in it’s wealth, NO?
Wamp, the Tramp.
.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:40 pmralph the wonder llama Says:
Wamp went on to claim that many Americans are uninsured by choice because they “rejected” the insurance plan offered by their employers
Sure. And most people on welfare choose not to work because they’re lazy and just want to live the good life on a couple hundred bucks a month.
I’m guessing that the only people in this category are like the poor bastards working for WalMart, not quite full-time, who are “offered” health coverage but could only afford it if their rent, food, car payments, clothing, utilities et al were free. WalMart can pretend they’re a caring employer without having to spend a dime.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:41 pmPLC has it right, right?
JimWolf, get out of my head! (kidding, noted we both commented on the luck of Mrs. Bush)
And Max-1, imagine how many people Jesus would have cured or raised from the dead if they’d all been entitled to carry a health insurance stone tablet?
PEACE
March 5th, 2009 at 1:41 pmWamp also claimed that there are “gobs” of “illegal immigrants” getting health care in this nation.
I live in a heavily Latino neighborhood, and I’m sure some of my neighbors are here illegally. They don’t go to emergency rooms and get “free health care” because they’re terrified of getting identified. It’s a stupid, apocryphal argument right in step with the “Chicago welfare queen” that Reagan talked about.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:41 pmTROS beat me to it my previous comment….
But hey, on the other hand, let’s make all Americans Congress-people at large, that way we can all be covered and have the same healthcare coverage as the good Congressman.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:42 pmWhat the Hell kind of name is Wamp anyway? It sounds to much like SWAMP, you know, the kind this premordial oozed crawled out of.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:42 pmI believe this is what we call a gaffe: Wamp was saying something honest and now he’s going to get rightly blasted for it. Hey, at least he admitted to what we all know: Republicans don’t think some people are worth providing health care.
http://www.pufferfishblog.com/
March 5th, 2009 at 1:42 pmIn all, just 20 percent of uninsured workers who are offered employer-sponsored coverage decline to participate.
And the reason why they decline to participate is because they can’t afford the premiums. Where I work the average worker is paid $11.00 an hour. Our health insurance plan is free for the employee (this is good), but if you have a wife and/or children, your share of the premiums is around $600 a month. And they don’t differentiate between a wife and or wife and children. I have a friend who is a single parent. She has declined coverage for her children because if she paid the $600 a month, she wouldn’t have enough money left at the end of the day to feed her children.
It is such an indictment of this country that we are the only industrialized country that has so little regard for it’s citizens where we make health care a privilege rather than a right. Not only is it not right, it is hurting our economy in a big way.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:43 pmGood one mom!
March 5th, 2009 at 1:43 pmI’d love to see every interview of every GOP politician that touches on the subject of health care contain the question: “do you think health care is a right or a privilege?”
Because if they were actually forced to state unequivocally the real position of their party, i.e. that health care is a privilege, you wouldn’t see a Republican get elected to anything for the next 100 years. A person worried about his or her loved ones getting sick doesn’t want to hear that health care is a “privilege.”
March 5th, 2009 at 1:45 pmRep. Wamp is really an absolute “nutcase”, and Sen. Brown was being rather kind I think. My probelem with all this is, that if it is not about reforming to a single-payer healthcare plan than it is not health reform. I heard on the radio this morning that Rep. John Conyers, who wants to present a single-payer plan to Congress, and who is going to the WH summit this afternoon, was told that “single-payer health care” is “tabu”, will not be mention, and is not to be broached!! I have one thing to say…WHY? Then to Wamp…….Are you willing to give up your healthcare….since you, by your own admission, have no right to have it?!
March 5th, 2009 at 1:45 pmVote this shi*head out of office and TAKE AWAY his insurance!
March 5th, 2009 at 1:46 pmphew for a moment there I was afraid I’d have to offer John Kerry so more grub. He never ever brings his own
March 5th, 2009 at 1:46 pmHealth includes communicable diseases, meaning we are all interconnected. Texas divorced primary care from public health a decade ago. That means more unnecessary illness.
As for Zach Wamp, he’s from the for-profit healthcare state. The link below shows HCA’s donations to Congress.
http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/pacgot.php?cmte=C00067231&cycle=2008
March 5th, 2009 at 1:47 pmYou know..it is really hard to control yourself when responding to such ignorant stupidity. What planet is this nitwit from? I challenge him to walk up to the child who’s father was killed fighting for this country and tell him he does not have the same rights as the priveiged few when it comes to healthcare. Or how about the son or daughter of the coal miner that was killed on the jobs 25 years ago? Again…I CHALLENGE this coward to confront these people and tell them they do not have the same right to healthcare as he does.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:50 pmWamp, another ignorant,rethuglican who doesn’t have his facts straight. No wonder the GOP is viewed as ‘out of touch’ with reality. He needs to crawl back into whatever hole he came out of. I think Wamp needs to lose his taxpayer sponsered health insurance too – let him see how the other half lives without health insurance.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:50 pmspencersmom says @ 33
Heh. I was wondering what that voice inside my head was sayin!
March 5th, 2009 at 1:51 pmWamp is just another Social Darwinist LOUSE…
March 5th, 2009 at 1:51 pmJust when you think they can’t possibly come up with something more stupid to say.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:52 pmWamps email
http://www.house.gov/wamp/contact_email.shtm
March 5th, 2009 at 1:53 pmWamp went on to claim that many Americans are uninsured by choice because they “rejected” the insurance plan offered by their employers.
____________________________________________________________
It’s difficult to imagine anybody preferring to be uninsured to accepting insurance “offered” by their employer. But usually what’s being “offered” is not insurance, but the opportunity to purchase insurance at prevailing rates — 100% out of the employee’s pocket.
Claiming this is “uninsured by choice” is a little like saying I don’t own my own private jet “by choice”.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:54 pmNo, no, no. Health care for elite Republican politicians is a right. Health care for the low life, knuckleheads who vote for Republicans is a privilege.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:55 pmRemember the politicians who took the “feed yourself on food stamps for a week” challenge? And how difficult it was? And how they had to change how they ate, no more organics, generics only, feeling hunger for the first time?
Anyone who is against the right to universal coverage should go ahead and take a similar challenge. For, say, five years, because you don’t access healthcare daily like you do for food. And no coverage for your family, either.
Can’t use any of your own money, can only show up in emergency rooms or county or free clinics only and wait your turn. See how you’re treated, how long the wait is, how it feels to have collection agencies hound you for payment you never will be able to make.
Um, kinda like walkin’ a mile in someone else’s shoes. Oh, don’t want to chance it? Then STFU!
PEACE
March 5th, 2009 at 1:55 pm#16,
Many years ago in CA I tore ligaments in my ankle, went to the county hospital and they said I was fine and sent me home.
I taped that ankle for two years and tore the other by favoring it so much. Then I had to tape two just so I could get out of bed.
Years later I frature my elbow, I went to the hospital and they gave me a canvas sling and sent me home. Told me not to move it.
Years after that, I had a 3rd degree dislocation of my shoulder (that’s were all the tendons snap or tear), they gave me a canvass sling and sent me home. I rehabed myself for an incredibly painful year and a half. It took about six months before I could lift my arm at all.
One of the first things Schwarzenegger did when he “took” control of the governors mansion was to cut aid to men with prostate cancer.
I know CA is used as an example of out of control healthcare costs because of all the people it services that don’t have insurance. And it may be, lord knows what they do with the money. But they sure don’t provide any care.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:56 pmIt has long been known that Congress can vote for laws that apply to the general public, but not to Congress… like permanent cost of living increases and health care forever. They will never vote to take away their own health care and the taxpayers cannot take it away from them. That these guys are not willing to give allow the kind of healthcare that they have for everyone in the country seems very selfish to me.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:59 pmWhy even Rush says that one of the inalienable rights guaranteed in the Consitution (sic – Dec of Independence) is LIFE !
March 5th, 2009 at 2:00 pm.
WAMP:
Q U E S T I O N:
Does Wamp think AMERICA has the right to be a healthy Nation?
.
March 5th, 2009 at 2:04 pmDumb Question:
How much job productivity is lost because of bad healthcare – both due to sickness and due to supporting those who could have worked and excelled but are either un or under-employed because their health interfered with their ability to learn (and therefore do a higher level job) or even do menial work ?
March 5th, 2009 at 2:05 pmIs it spelled Wamp or is it Wimp? He sure acts like a Wimp.
March 5th, 2009 at 2:06 pmMapleStreet, not a dumb question at all:
cmwf.org/usr_doc/856_Davis_hlt_productivity_USworkers.pdf
March 5th, 2009 at 2:07 pmThis is just another hateful, bigoted, republican moron without an education. Looke it up:
Wamp was born in Fort Benning, Georgia. He attended the McCallie School, a boy’s boarding school in Chattanooga, from the age of 11 until he graduated in 1976.[1] He studied industrial relations at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill in 1977–78 and 1979–80 and attended the University of Tennessee at Knoxville in between (1978–79), but did not earn a degree from either.
March 5th, 2009 at 2:09 pmThat is one of the most important lines: people who decline insurance are those who can’t afford it! For years I was under-insured, covering myself for only extreme circumstances, because I could not afford it otherwise; essentially making myself “uninsured.” The only advantage was that I was able to partake in the “insured negotiated price structure” — which is actually another idiotic proposal that gives insured and under insured people a better rate than the uninsured, who is uninsured becausd he can’t pay the premiums.
As for Rep. Wamp – he is a fool, a rich basturd whose selfishness and self-centeredness colors all his thoughts.
March 5th, 2009 at 2:10 pmA video of him saying this should be played on a reel over and over again, so Americans are able to see what jerks they elect to office when they vote repugniscum.
When the guy without medical care contracts TB and your kids sit next to him in the movies….and contract TB…will WAMP still think health care is a privilege?
When someone loses their job due to health issues and has no income, just mountains of healthcare debt…are they just supposed to hide in a corner and die?
March 5th, 2009 at 2:10 pmgummitch, I think you nailed it with your Gatsby reply.
March 5th, 2009 at 2:12 pmJust using that name covers a whole lot of ground in describing these rich, useless morons.
Wamp was born at Fort Benning, GA, probably in a military hospital, and to a military family which provided him medical coverage a good portion of his life. Now he gets the best as a congressman and is saying that it should bea privilege and not a right for Americans. A worthless bastard from where I am sitting just like anyone else with his attitude.
March 5th, 2009 at 2:15 pmZack Wamp, hunh?
I betcha his one and only set of grandparents is so proud,
March 5th, 2009 at 2:15 pmspencer’s mom,
I agree entirely with your comment on Barbara Bush.
To add to that, for years I worked in the medical field. It was my experience that “professional courtesy” is extended to many VIPs. The well-insured, wealthy individual would receive the doctor’s services grata and would have only the hospital and laboratory bills to charge to his insurance company. So while Babs has the best health care coverage in America, I question whether she is even being charged through her insurance for the full tab.
March 5th, 2009 at 2:16 pmThis should continue to be interesting to watch.
March 5th, 2009 at 2:19 pmThe multi-gazillion dollar corporations doing everything they possibly can to continue the ‘privilege’ of robbing the public of every cent they can get. With your health hanging in the balance.
These politicians have no idea that others who have insurance coverage don’t get as much coverage as they do. I insurance for my employees $12.5 a year and have to pay into a pension plan at $6k a year to get it. And I can’t give myself a raise because I’m so insurance poor that I don’t go to the doctor because the last time I had a mammogram I had to pay $600 out of pocket because my Blue Cross coverage only pays $100 of diagnostic tests a year. But I’m sure if they have Blue Cross it pays 100% of this care. All plans are different.
All insurance has coordination of benefits so if somebody is covered under two plans there is not chance of them getting any extra money paid. When I worked for the controller of a hospital the only person who got money back for being covered by the state and the federal government was a politician.
March 5th, 2009 at 2:19 pmWhat level of healthcare is every person in the world entitled to? The best and most expensive there is?
What you are saying when you say “Health care is a right,” is “I am entitled to having my health care paid for by other people.”
Should it be “I am entitled to having the best and most expensive health care paid for by other people.” or “I am entitled to having simply adequate health care paid for by other people.”
If it’s the former, then how do we all afford to pay for the best and most expensive health care possible for everyone?
If it’s the latter, then who decides what is simply adequate? Under centralized health care, it most likely won’t be the doctor, which is pretty close to what we have now with the insurance companies.
March 5th, 2009 at 2:20 pmThe only people I’ve ever heard say that healthcare is a privilege have healthcare and I’ve never heard anyone without healthcare say its a privilege. Coincidence?
March 5th, 2009 at 2:20 pmWhat’s more, the abysmal quality of many of those plans (and insanely high costs for even minor issues) makes them all but useless if you actually have healthcare needs.
They’re like “undercoating” for the healthcare industry.
March 5th, 2009 at 2:21 pmWamp is so short-sighted that he doesn’t see how large numbers of uninsured Americans affect those who DO have insurance.
It’s like the people who don’t want to lift a finger to help “deadbeats” who can’t pay their adjustable rate mortgages and don’t see the large number of foreclosures as a crisis. They don’t see how a glut of available homes on the market lower their own property values, and the don’t see how empty houses blight their neighborhoods.
The same principle applies for the “health care is a privilege” crowd. They don’t see how uninsured people wind up taking more money out of the pockets of the insured people.
Let’s see if I can explain this in terms even the trolls understand.
Joe Uninsured has a low-paying job, plus a family. He can’t afford insurance, and his employer doesn’t provide it. He sees a doctor when it’s absolutely necessary, but because it’s expensive, he doesn’t go for regular check-ups, he doesn’t have access to wellness programs, and his high blood pressure and high cholesterol go undiagnosed (not that he could afford the medication for those conditions anyway).
Suddenly, Joe has a heart attack. He’s whisked away to an emergency room, where he’s treated with emergency surgery and a multiple-day stay in the hospital, because the hospital is obligated to provide emergency care in life-threatening conditions.
Unfortunately, Joe can’t pay for this care, and he doesn’t qualify for Medicaid. So, faced with a staggering hospital bill he can’t pay, he has no choice but to declare bankruptcy. His financial situation — which had been tenuous up to this point — is now ruined. And the sad thing is that he might have avoided that heart attack if he had been receiving proper wellness care.
So what happens when the hospital doesn’t get their money? If Joe was a single isolated case, most hospitals could probably absorb the cost. But emergency rooms are increasingly filled with Joes because more and more people are uninsured. So in order to make ends meet, the hospital has to raise their rates for the people who CAN pay.
When hospitals and other health providers raise their rates, the insurance companies have to pay out more in claims. And once insurance companies feel squeezed, they raise their rates.
Every time an insurer raises their premiums, another layer of people who have been paying for their own insurance gets priced out and they have to drop their coverage. And another layer of employers can no longer afford to give their employees coverage, and they have to drop the benefit completely, require the employee to pony up a bigger share, or scale back the coverage plan considerably.
Of course, some employers cover the increasing costs of providing health benefits to their employees by increasing the cost of their goods and services — which means we ALL pay for more expensive coverage for fewer and fewer people.
And all this creates more Joe Uninsureds in the country, causing the vicious circle to spin faster.
Now, Wamp will be blissfully out of this circle as long as he remains in Congress. But the voters who put him there are smack dab in the middle of it. And if Wamp continues to remain this obtuse, his constituents may kick him out of Congress and back into reality.
March 5th, 2009 at 2:26 pmI just called the Rep’s office and told the person on the phone that maybe Rep. Wamp could lead by example. He should give up his healthcare through Congress and then he could beg for healthcare like I do because my employer does not offer insurance.
Flood is mailbox.
March 5th, 2009 at 2:31 pmIn addition when Blue Cross pays for bills they have a contract that allows them to pay reduced amounts. So the doctors bill larger amounts then they would to everybody to make up for those contracts. When my insurance decides they’re not going to pay for something, which is often, I’m stuck paying that inflated amount. That’s how I ended up paying $600 for a mammogram. I certainly can’t afford that every year.
March 5th, 2009 at 2:33 pmWho could possibly trust their government LESS than they trust the hawkers of male enhancement products on TV? (answer: any given Righty)
Seriously – the “free market” will sort out healthcare???
(answer: sure – just like it tackled male enhancement)
A person’s got to be rocking a pretty fat Tootise-Pop hat to buy that line.
“Fewer Taxes and More Fleecing, now!!!”
it is truly bizarre, what righties will cheer for.
March 5th, 2009 at 2:33 pmAlejandro Says:
It is the way every other industrial country in the world does it. You get the healthcare you need. 36 of those other countries rate higher in healthcare delivery than the US even though we pay MORE per capita than any of them. The declaration of indepedence says everyone has a right to LIFE yet about 18,000 people a year in the US die from lack of access to healthcare. They died because they are poor. You Ebeneezer Scrooge worshippers dont really CARE who dies as long as they do so quietly and it doesnt cost you any money. THAT is pathetic
March 5th, 2009 at 2:35 pmAlejandro, what kind of healthcare do you have?
There is no reason why we shouldn’t have the healthcare government officials have – or, they should have the same as what’s provided to us.
This two seperate classes is bull. And to answer you question, the best healthcare doesn’t have to be the most expensive.
All americans should have the best healthcare possible. Are you against funding for education too?
March 5th, 2009 at 2:36 pm#73 – So you see the problem with centralized health care.
March 5th, 2009 at 2:37 pmMissMolly, that was perfectly stated, and clear enough for any moron, even our morons, to understand.
Having been “inside” the industry, I can also tell you that for-profit insurers take advantage of “profit windows”, that is, they see claims coming in with increased billing rates (not that it matters, they only pay according to contract rates or prevailing rates) and they instantly raise premiums, even though they aren’t paying more.
Every group (employer, union or otherwise) has an annual review and premium adjustment. These are staggered throughout the year, so they can increase rates today and justify it by saying healthcare costs are increasing.
Simply put, when providers bill more to compensate for people who get care but can’t/don’t pay, for-profit plans are the financial winners, and have the data to back up their increased revenue.
Healthcare in America is so unbelievably twisted and complex, and they’re soiling their Vitters at the idea of simple, universal, mandated coverage with Medicare as an option.
PEACE
March 5th, 2009 at 2:37 pmAlejandro, I’ve only noticed two posters that addressed their own medical history. Myself and Shayne. Why don’t you tell us why we shouldn’t have access to better healthcare?
March 5th, 2009 at 2:42 pmBottom line:
For some to turn a blind eye concerning others meeting their demise due to no access to health care, adequate shelter and food shows what a degenerate society the human race has become.
March 5th, 2009 at 2:45 pmShayne says:
These politicians have no idea that others who have insurance coverage don’t get as much coverage as they do. I insurance for my employees $12.5 a year and have to pay into a pension plan at $6k a year to get it. And I can’t give myself a raise because I’m so insurance poor that I don’t go to the doctor because the last time I had a mammogram I had to pay $600 out of pocket because my Blue Cross coverage only pays $100 of diagnostic tests a year. But I’m sure if they have Blue Cross it pays 100% of this care. All plans are different.
Bravo for you Shayne in at least trying to provide health care for your employees. Your situation is a perfect example of how the Republicans talk one thing and do another. The reality is that universal health care would take a huge burdon off of the small business person. I am in a management position at the company I am employed by, our cost (less what the employee contributes) is around $800.00 per month for each employee. This is just plain silly. If we had universal health care we could afford to hire more people, invest in better technology and grow our business. So all this talk the Republicans are doing is lies. The only thing they are trying to protect is the big profits of the health care providers, drug companies and insurance companies.
March 5th, 2009 at 2:46 pmRich H. –
If all americans are entitled to the best health care possible, I suppose that all Sudanese are also entitled to the best healthcare possible.
Are we not violating their rights by not paying for their health care and not giving them the best health care possible?
Of course this goes for everyone in the world. America is still the richest country in the world. Aren’t we being greedy by not paying for Sudan’s health care and giving them the best health care possible?
And funding for public education, as flawed as it is, is still mostly decentralized. Bush helped to push centralization further with NCLB, but it’s still mostly decentralized and funded locally (I think and hope).
If you are so eager to pay for your neighbor’s health care, then why not do it now? Why not get together with your neighbors and see how many people want to chip into a healthcare fund for the neighborhood? You could find (or maybe even hire, if the fund has enough money) cash-only doctors to do routine maintenance. The fees would be much lower since you don’t have to worry about insurance paperwork. If it works, you could spread it into other neighborhoods and maybe even take over the whole city with it.
But it would be best to keep it as decentralized as possible because the control center would be more accessible.
March 5th, 2009 at 2:47 pmDid WE pay for Bab’s heart surgery? As a former President, I’d imagine her husband is covered but what about former First Ladies? The Bushes can afford their own health coverage so I’d like to know if they’re on the dole.
And how many people who can afford health coverage are on Medicare? Why are they special?
/is this guy one of the “compassionate conservatives”?
March 5th, 2009 at 2:50 pmYou should. What makes you think you will get better healthcare in the Soviet Union? They had universal health care btw.
March 5th, 2009 at 2:50 pmIf all americans are entitled to the best health care possible, I suppose that all Sudanese are also entitled to the best healthcare possible.
Yes. But let’s start with our own country, huh?
And funding for public education, as flawed as it is, is still mostly decentralized. Bush helped to push centralization further with NCLB, but it’s still mostly decentralized and funded locally (I think and hope).
And funding schools through local property taxes is part of the reason public education is so unequal in the United States… Actually funding education through the Federal Government would be much fairer and more efficient.
As would single-payer health care.
If you are so eager to pay for your neighbor’s health care, then why not do it now? Why not get together with your neighbors and see how many people want to chip into a healthcare fund for the neighborhood?
It’s called shared risk… the bigger the pool, the lower the costs, the better for everyone…
But it would be best to keep it as decentralized as possible because the control center would be more accessible.
Sure- local providers should decide on the course of treatment for each patient, just like local teachers should decide on the course of study for each student.
March 5th, 2009 at 2:56 pmBut the money should come from a single payer- much more efficient, much less money in the long run.
Alejandro, with all due respect, this is an absurd argument you’re advancing.
In the first place, Americans taking responsibility for health care for the Sudanese? Seriously? This is your argument?
In the second place, you insist on “best health care possible”. Why is that? Why not insist on adequate care for all? That is what we’re asking for, after all.
You’re generally a solid poster. But this is a rigged argument, and not one that reflects well on your point.
March 5th, 2009 at 2:57 pmWhat makes you think you will get better healthcare in the Soviet Union? They had universal health care btw.
And pretty good health care as well… which caused a huge problem when they broke up… care declined.
http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/119/4/324
March 5th, 2009 at 2:58 pmOnce, while working for a company, all of the employess were exposed to an array of toxins in incredibly high doses. It affected us all severely and in different forms. It messed with most everyones central nervouse systems, cardio pulminary systems and everything else (I can’t think of right now).
At the onset, it affected my sleep patterns where I was getting about 1 hour of sleep a night for weeks on end. I went to my insurance co.’s doctor and he said “some people don’t need any sleep.”
Yeah, tell me how payng for insurance will just fix everything. The insurance co.’s are all run by crooks.
To get any form of healthcare we had to form a class action suit against the employer. We all lost in court due to a fine republican judge not allowing ANY testimony on our behalf while allowing the most incredible bull**** from the defense.
The insurance co. spent about 10 million to defeat us where they could have just provided healthcare at a fraction of the cost. They did this so there wouldn’t be a precedent and they could deny care to others who suffered through the same in the future.
Now through no fault of our own, we are all like the people in Miss Hussein Molly’s post at #73. And I’d like to add to her post that in CA emergency rooms they do just put you in a corner and let you die. Has anyone seen the video of MLK?
The cost of providing healthcare would be greatly diminished and the care of higher quality if the government would get involved and provide care along the same lines as Canada, France or Sweden (or any number of other countrys).
People like you and Wamp and others are just scum of the earth who would make a buck any way they can, and if that means denying healthcare to the sick and dying so be it.
March 5th, 2009 at 2:58 pmAlejandro (is that really your name) – FUC* Off!
March 5th, 2009 at 2:59 pmAlejandro Says: 79
That was dense. The problem Miss Molly showed was with OUR healthcare system. Preventative healthcare is done MUCH more efficiently under a single payer system
March 5th, 2009 at 2:59 pmAlejandro babbles:
If all americans are entitled to the best health care possible, I suppose that all Sudanese are also entitled to the best healthcare possible.
Are we not violating their rights by not paying for their health care and not giving them the best health care possible?
I see Alejandro has taken over the trolling duties today.
His post is so wrong is hard to know where to even begin. I will just say that we, human kind, have agreed that many other things are human rights, such as food, education, work, and free speech.
Following Alejandro’s ill-logic, the US is violating human rights in Sudan for not providing their citizens with any of the above.
What an absurd argument, indeed.
March 5th, 2009 at 3:05 pmOr maybe our troll du jour is unfamiliar with the concept of sovereign nations…
March 5th, 2009 at 3:08 pmAlejandro Says:
This is some of the stupidest most selfish tripe I have ever heard.
If all americans are entitled to the best health care possible, I suppose that all Sudanese are also entitled to the best healthcare possible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
OUR country is responsible for OUR people.
Are we not violating their rights by not paying for their health care and not giving them the best health care possible?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
DUMB. OUR government isnt responsible for OTHER countries citizens. A flat out specious argument.
Of course this goes for everyone in the world. America is still the richest country in the world. Aren’t we being greedy by not paying for Sudan’s health care and giving them the best health care possible?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
No. Politics is the art of the possible. Providing for the world ISNT possible providing for all of OUR people is.
And funding for public education, as flawed as it is, is still mostly decentralized. Bush helped to push centralization further with NCLB, but it’s still mostly decentralized and funded locally (I think and hope).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Why then do you expect your nieghbor to pay for your roads? For the protection provided by the military, police, fire depts?
If you are so eager to pay for your neighbor’s health care, then why not do it now? Why not get together with your neighbors and see how many people want to chip into a healthcare fund for the neighborhood? You could find (or maybe even hire, if the fund has enough money) cash-only doctors to do routine maintenance. The fees would be much lower since you don’t have to worry about insurance paperwork. If it works, you could spread it into other neighborhoods and maybe even take over the whole city with it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
How selfish do you have to be to make this argument that is basically why dont you give everything YOU have to others so I can evade my societal responsibilities
But it would be best to keep it as decentralized as possible because the control center would be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There is no reason anything has to be centralized other than paying for it. Like Canada does. There are many ways to do it but there is no getting around the FACT that 18000 people a year DIE from lack of access to healthcare and 36 other countries pay LESS per capita than we do and provide better healthcare to its citizens
March 5th, 2009 at 3:09 pmbarack obomber Says:
where again does the constitution guarantee health care for ALL?
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
March 5th, 2009 at 3:13 pmbarack obomber Says:
where again does the constitution guarantee health care for ALL?
March 5th, 2009 at 3:09 pm
____________
March 5th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
I think we should respect Rep. Wamp for saying out loud what the GOP really believes. Usually, they’re more mealy mouthed, holding out market-based solutions as the path to reducing the number of uninsured. If they would just be honest and say that, in their view, there is no difference between the right to see a doctor and the right to a 60″ plasma screen TV, it would create a more forthright debate.
March 5th, 2009 at 3:16 pmMike71654 Says:
March 5th, 2009 at 3:13 pm
________
Pwned :(
Also – I’m incapable of reading or posting the Preamble without the Schoolhouse Rock song popping into my head and getting stuck there for a few hours. Does this happen to anyone else?
March 5th, 2009 at 3:16 pmbarack obomber Says:
IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America
hen in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
March 5th, 2009 at 3:17 pmwhere again does the constitution guarantee health care for ALL?
Where again does the Constitution guarantee highways for ALL?
It doesn’t?!?!
Maybe we just do somethings ’cause they make sense for an industrialized nation to do them for it’s citizens… ’cause it makes us stronger as a Nation…
I take it you will no longer be utilizing the interstate highway system? Considering you feel it’s construction was unconstitutional…
March 5th, 2009 at 3:17 pmbarack obomber Says:
Obama
Big
Ass
Mistake
America
March 5th, 2009 at 3:09 pm
_________
Since book-learnin obviously ain’t your thing, I invite you to check out this catchy little ditty.
March 5th, 2009 at 3:22 pmbarack obomber Says:
Where does the constitution gaurantee fire depts, Police education? Perhaps in the preamble where it says promote the general wellfare you punk ass troll. Shouldnt die of embarassment from being such an ignorant piece of garbage?
March 5th, 2009 at 3:25 pmThen why not start with your own community before taking on a country the size of the US?
It depends on your definition of the word fair. And are you actually saying that things are done more efficiently when they are done by the federal government? Wow.
The lower the costs? When doctors use insurance, medicare, and such, they have to hire a whole office of people to take care of the paperwork. This greatly adds to the cost of doing business. Shared risk in corrupt insurance companies, with their favors from state governments, is the leading cause of the ridiculous health care costs in this country. Imagine what this would be like if it were inflated to the size of a federal agency or department.
If the costs were kept artificially low, this creates shortages (this is economics 101).
Local providers? Doctors? Again, if the doctor decides, then the doctor will opt for the best if payment is guaranteed. If payment is for what some bureaucrat decided was “adequate” then the doctor isn’t the one making the medical decisions.
What’s the difference between Americans and Sudanese? Are we not all equal and entitled to the same rights?
If you aren’t willing to pay for Sudanese health care, then why are you willing to pay for health care for someone in another city or state? Why not start up something local?
I asked which will it be? The best or adequate (to be paid for by others)? Which are we born entitled to? If it’s the best, then that’s hardly affordable. If it’s adequate, who decides what that is? Under centralized health care, it won’t be the doctor. If it is the doctor, then the doctor will opt for the best, seeing as how payment will be guaranteed.
And from the annals link above:
Healthcare was ok. But innovation lagged.
You are making the absurd argument that all people are entitled to have their health care needs paid for by other people.
All humans have the right to provide their own food, education, and work. They do not have the right for their neighbors to constantly supply them with food, education, and work in exchange for nothing.
March 5th, 2009 at 3:26 pmHe he. The Interstate Highway system IS unconstitutional.
At least it was considered so by James Madison, the guy that wrote the constitution.
He argued many many times against allocating funds to build federal roads and canals.
But whatever, we’ve LONG since abandoned that old thing.
March 5th, 2009 at 3:28 pmbarack obomber prattles:
where again does the constitution guarantee health care for ALL?
After supporting Bush’s Constitution-shredding policies for eight long years, reichwingers are worried about adhering to the letter of the Constitution? What an about-face!
Not to mention the US is a signatory nation of the Declaration of Human Rights -which makes health care (gasp!) a right. Duh.
March 5th, 2009 at 3:29 pmThen why not start with your own community before taking on a country the size of the US?
See my points about shared risk… the bigger the pool, the lower the cost, the more efficient the system.
The lower the costs? When doctors use insurance, medicare, and such, they have to hire a whole office of people to take care of the paperwork. This greatly adds to the cost of doing business. Shared risk in corrupt insurance companies, with their favors from state governments, is the leading cause of the ridiculous health care costs in this country. Imagine what this would be like if it were inflated to the size of a federal agency or department.
You do realize that these inefficiencies are the result of having to deal with so many DIFFERENT providers, right?
And single payer would greatly SIMPLIFY paperwork, right?
With all due respect, A. We already ration care in this country… except we ration it based on ability to pay.
If you can afford it you can have any procedure done first thing tomorrow…
I think giving health care to the sickest first makes more sense… as does preventative medicine over emergency room care.
You disagree?
Re: the Soviet Union… innovation lagged because they were isolated by the West… the ratio of doctors to citizens was much higher as was the quality of basic care…
March 5th, 2009 at 3:33 pmAlejandro Says:
All humans have the right to provide their own food, education, and work. They do not have the right for their neighbors to constantly supply them with food, education, and work in exchange for nothing.
March 5th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights – an international treaty signed by the United States and thus binding U.S. law – disagrees with you:
March 5th, 2009 at 3:34 pm
It doesn’t. That’s why the states and municipalities deal with those.
Look. This is something that most Americans do not understand.
If it’s not in Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution, Congress can’t do it.
When the preamble says “provide for the general welfare” they mean by doing what’s in Article I, Section 8.
Now, the past few decades, the Supreme Court has ruled that the Commerce Clause means that Congress can regulate everything in the country, from someone growing two pot plants in their basement to public schools, so that basically throws the constitutional restrictions on Congress out the window.
March 5th, 2009 at 3:37 pmAlejandro?
March 5th, 2009 at 3:40 pmWhat’s it like to live in the 1850’s?
Most Americans have moved past that mindset… join us.
Alejandro jabbers:
What’s the difference between Americans and Sudanese? Are we not all equal and entitled to the same rights?
The difference is that Americans are citizens of the US while the Sudanese are citizens of Sudan. Each sovereign nation is responsible for respecting the human rights of its own citizens. You are familiar with the concept of sovereign nations, aren’t you?
All humans have the right to provide their own food, education, and work. They do not have the right for their neighbors to constantly supply them with food, education, and work in exchange for nothing.
WTF are you talking about? Who says is for nothing? We all pay taxes, don’t we?
What are you suggesting, a Free Speech fund to enjoy the right to free speech? An Innocent Until Proven Guilty slush fund to enjoy the right to a fair trial?
I have no idea what you are smoking but you should absolutely quit it.
March 5th, 2009 at 3:40 pmThe insurance companies work so hard at not paying bills that every doctors office has to have two people doing billing for every one doctor. At least. Everybody needs to watch Sicko, buy it and pass it around to your friends.
March 5th, 2009 at 3:40 pmAlejandro babbles:
If it’s not in Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution, Congress can’t do it.
And what does the Constitution say in Article I, Section 8?
Section 8: The Congress shall have power
To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
Plus, as I mentioned before, the US is a signatory nation of the Declaration of Human Rights, which makes health care a right. Stop being so dense.
March 5th, 2009 at 3:44 pmOh! So you want a single payer and a single provider? I thought you said the provider would be local.
What’s stopping people from doing their own preventative care? I’m talking about taking care of themselves through nutrition and exercise? Nothing.
But when someone else’s bad lifestyle choices come back to haunt them, you want to spread around their bill to everyone.
Or would the health care soviet decide how one is supposed to live, given that his health care is being provided by his neighbors?
That is hilarious.
How arbitrary. Who decides what standard of living is adequate? Hell, I shouldn’t have to work at all since I have a human right for my standard of living to be maintained by others. In the event of unemployment… Well, I quit my job. Looks like I’m unemployed. Now pay my bills.
March 5th, 2009 at 3:44 pmAlejandro Says:
Hell, I shouldn’t have to work at all since I have a human right for my standard of living to be maintained by others.
And just like that, in one sweep statement, Alejandro proves he has no clue what he is talking about.
March 5th, 2009 at 3:48 pmjeevmon Says
March 5th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
I think we should respect Rep. Wamp for saying out loud what the GOP really believes.
____________________________________________________________
Translation: “I got mine — to h*ll with everybody else!”
And isn’t this a common theme with this party?
March 5th, 2009 at 3:48 pmWhao whao! Are you suggesting that because someone has the right to free speech that they DON’T have the right to take money from others to pay for it? Why not? I should have the best free speech possible. I should have my own TV network where I can tell the multitudes how I feel.
Well, ok I should have adequate means to free speech provided to me. I’ll just take a computer and an internet connection. Surely we should have taxes to pay for that.
March 5th, 2009 at 3:49 pmExplain it to me then.
If something is a right that means that you are entitled to it because you exist.
That thing says that I have the right to a certain standard of living if I am unemployed.
March 5th, 2009 at 3:49 pmIf we have single payer (to whom?) how will this be different?
March 5th, 2009 at 3:50 pmOh! So you want a single payer and a single provider? I thought you said the provider would be local.
The provider will be local… the payer will be a single insurance pool… single payer.
Are you hard of reading?
Nothing is stopping people from improved diet and exercise… but costs are preventing them from seeing a doctor about that back pain until they learn they have end stage cancer in the Emergency Room…
March 5th, 2009 at 3:51 pm… and We the People end up paying triple what we would if we’d just paid for them to have that annual physical…
March 5th, 2009 at 3:52 pmAfter listening to these pompous, over privileged WASP Republicans, I am beginning to understand their fear of even the thought of Che Guevara; because if that type of Revolution should happen here, they are definitely the ones who would wind up in front of the firing squads. The ultimately stupid thing about them is that the attitudes they are displaying are the attitudes of the Batista supporters. It is a privilege to have food. Yeah, just keep it up Herr Rush.
March 5th, 2009 at 3:53 pmYour logic is getting away from you, Alejandro, and I think it betrays your conservative ideology: that everyone is waiting from a handout from the government via a Democratic majority.
As people keep trying to tell you, everyone through their taxes would be paying into these costs. Your ideas (to be overly nice) imply that there is a significant amount of people in this country that would not pay their share, and would stop being productive members of society, because their healthcare would be paid?
I would like statistics on this implication, please. Have we seen a jump in unemployment in single-payer countries? Many of these socialist-leaning countries also have their own immigration problems as well. Please cite your evidence of an UNTENABLE burden placed on these country’s universal healthcare systems.
Or you could save time and just open your eyes and look at the very real fact that the U.S. is one of the worst healthcare providers of any industrialized nation, with one of the highest infant mortality rates in that category, too. Some wonderful system!
March 5th, 2009 at 3:53 pmIf we have single payer (to whom?) how will this be different?
Yeah,it’s not like there are working models to learn from… wait, most of the Industrialized world has already done this? Successfully!?!
Whaddya know.
March 5th, 2009 at 3:54 pmYou:
So, if the providers are local, how many different providers would there be?
Or do you mean there would be a single local health care soviet taking orders from the central soviet?
March 5th, 2009 at 3:54 pmRealness,
You don’t see the tyranny of the majority do you? If I chose not to relinquish a portion of my income to the state, they will come with guns. If I choose not to go along with the men in guns, they will kill me. This is not freedom.
March 5th, 2009 at 3:56 pmWamp is a socialist since he has excellent health care provided by the government, right?
Or if he’s not a socialist, he’s going to turn down that free health care and pay for his own, private plan out of his own pocket, shouldn’t he?
That will be the day.
March 5th, 2009 at 3:56 pmbut the anxiety of not knowing how you’re going to pay for cancer surgery is a price we’ll pay for our freedom?
March 5th, 2009 at 3:58 pmi’m sure the citizens of country’s with universal healthcare are simply dying from their own self-imposed slavery.
March 5th, 2009 at 3:59 pmYes.
March 5th, 2009 at 3:59 pmAlejandro Says:
How arbitrary. Who decides what standard of living is adequate? Hell, I shouldn’t have to work at all since I have a human right for my standard of living to be maintained by others. In the event of unemployment… Well, I quit my job. Looks like I’m unemployed. Now pay my bills.
March 5th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
____________
Nice straw man, moron. You’re intentionally misreading the document to push your own idiotic interpretation.
A right to a standard of living does not mean that you do not have to work, or that your neighbors have to pay for you to live. It establishes a legal framework by which a person or group of people can fight for their right to life, liberty, property, health, education, employment, standard of living, and other rights.
It’s the core of the approach to health care. It means looking at health care from the perspective that every human being is entitled to adequate health care (as determined by individual societies and countries based on the needs of their people), and figuring out how to design a system that will make that happen.
As opposed to the perspective that health care is a profit-making endeavor, and that every patient is a potential source of revenue that can be maximized through efficiencies on the expenditure (i.e. providing care) side of the balance sheet.
March 5th, 2009 at 4:00 pmI had a friend visit from Finland… she saw one of those coffee cans at the end of the checkstand in our Safeway to raise money for the care of a local eight year old with leukemia… she asked me, “What if they don’t get enough change? Will he not get treatment?”
I told her that was a possibility…
She said, “How barbaric.”
It’s time we took responsibility for our citizen’s health.
March 5th, 2009 at 4:00 pmSelf-imposed?
You mean imposed by the majority of a small body of people with corporate handlers who pretend to represent the population?
If it were self-imposed, the system would be voluntary.
March 5th, 2009 at 4:01 pmAlejandro Says:
If it were self-imposed, the system would be voluntary.
March 5th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
_________
It is. Nobody’s forcing sick Germans to go to the doctor.
March 5th, 2009 at 4:04 pmSee, this is one of the problems with collectivist thinking. You said “as determined by individual societies.” That means that somehow this society has a mind and can determine things. No. Certain people in that society decided what is adequate and what is not and imposed that standard on other people, usually involuntarily.
March 5th, 2009 at 4:04 pmBut they are forcing them to pay for it.
March 5th, 2009 at 4:05 pmself-imposed, in this sense, I meant democratically voted in. In our country, by representatives THE PEOPLE have voted in. Are you having trouble with representative democracy?
I’m done with corporate handlers. They’ve put a price on someone’s health. That’s why I want a federal single-payer system.
March 5th, 2009 at 4:05 pmOk. This is fun, but I have crap to do.
March 5th, 2009 at 4:06 pmI can’t sit here and argue on the internet all day and expect other people to pay my bills.
Hell yes. How representative is it? Especially in this country. Think about how people are nominated into elections through the corporate parties. It’s far from democratic.
Besides, I don’t need 50% +1 of THE PEOPLE telling me to fork over half my income.
March 5th, 2009 at 4:08 pm60. PatrioticLiberalChristian
Wow – NICE STUDY!
I had a little trouble getting in (needed to have the www added in front as www. cmwf.org/usr_doc/856_Davis_hlt_productivity_USworkers.pdf
But definitely worth reading !
March 5th, 2009 at 4:08 pmAlejandro prattle:
Explain it to me then.
If something is a right that means that you are entitled to it because you exist.
I have explained but you have a reading comprehension problem and/or you are more interested in spewing hyperbole and building strawman arguments.
A right means that nobody can deny the pursuit of whatever it is you want. If you choose to quit your job, you haven’t been denied anything. You simply chose not to exercise your right to a job. Duh.
This is no different from having the right to free speech. Using your logic (or lack thereof), we should have to pay to be able to speak our mind. Because, you know, you got it for nothing…
March 5th, 2009 at 4:08 pmI can’t sit here and argue on the internet all day and expect other people to pay my bills.
But you can use the internet, that we all paid for and subsidize, to argue that you get by all on your own? You gonna stop driving on interstate highways too?
March 5th, 2009 at 4:09 pmAlejandro Says:
You don’t see the tyranny of the majority do you? If I chose not to relinquish a portion of my income to the state, they will come with guns. If I choose not to go along with the men in guns, they will kill me. This is not freedom.
March 5th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
___________
Actually, they don’t come with guns. Usually just briefcases. And they’re not going to kill you – just garnish your wages for a bit.
And no, it’s not tyranny. It’s the price of living in a democracy. As a citizen of the United States, entitled to all the benefits and positive externalities that come with my citizenship (free expression, free press, right to vote, right to due process, etc), I agree to cede a portion of my income to the government of the United States so that they can continue to provide these benefits and positive externalities I enjoy – preferably improving upon them.
That’s not tyranny. It IS freedom.
March 5th, 2009 at 4:10 pmAlejandro, you’ve said a mouthfull in #136. “Collectivist thinking” is thinking about those around you. It’s the communities we live in, the largest (for the purpose of this thread) is the United States. That largest community cleans your water, gives you roads to travel on, and protects you overseas.
Your thinking of the libertarian ‘rugged individualist’ model doesn’t take into account community at all, and has even become a major apologist for greed, exploitation, social darwinism, arguing the right of physical well-being.
this, is a progressive, is the problem. this is part of an american myth structure that has wreaked havoc in this country. Community as a central value has been hijacked- distorted into communism and collectivism. And look where we are because of it…
March 5th, 2009 at 4:11 pmAlejandro prattles:
It is. Nobody’s forcing sick Germans to go to the doctor.
But they are forcing them to pay for it.
Because they will need it. It’s no different from a medical insurance policy. Duh.
March 5th, 2009 at 4:11 pmBesides, I don’t need 50% +1 of THE PEOPLE telling me to fork over half my income.
Would you make that income without the support of the infrastructure around you?
No.
Grow up.
There are no free ponies.
March 5th, 2009 at 4:11 pmAlejandro Says:
See, this is one of the problems with collectivist thinking. You said “as determined by individual societies.” That means that somehow this society has a mind and can determine things. No. Certain people in that society decided what is adequate and what is not and imposed that standard on other people, usually involuntarily.
March 5th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
___________
So who would you rather have determining what standard of health care is adequate – insurance company accountants?
March 5th, 2009 at 4:14 pmAlejandro Says:
He he. The Interstate Highway system IS unconstitutional.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
No it isnt. That statement is purely stupid. To be UN-CONSTITUTIONAL it would have to be against something IN the constitution cough up exactly what that is.
At least it was considered so by James Madison, the guy that wrote the constitution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
He didnt write anything IN it that prohibits public funds from being used for the common good.
He argued many many times against allocating funds to build federal roads and canals.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Yeah he had his opinion which is NOT the same thing as saying he wrote that into the constitution. It seems pretty solidly within the promoting the general wellfare clause.
But whatever, we’ve LONG since abandoned that old thing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Well Bush has done a lot of damage to it but other than that, you are just full of it.
March 5th, 2009 at 4:17 pmAlejandro Says:
You don’t see the tyranny of the majority do you? If I chose not to relinquish a portion of my income to the state, they will come with guns. If I choose not to go along with the men in guns, they will kill me. This is not freedom.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
What a selfish punk you are. We are trying to have a society here. If YOU dont want to pay your fair share then get out. Go live in the woods and eat nuts and berries. We are tired of carrying you selfish MINE MINE MINE, Ebeneezer Scrooge lovers along while WE make an actual society.
March 5th, 2009 at 4:20 pmConvenient how conservatives (and especially libertarians) forget little concepts like the social contract whenever it suits their preconcieved positions.
March 5th, 2009 at 4:20 pmThat’s the problem with “rugged individualists”: They just don’t realize (or won’t admit to themselves) that they are enjoying the benefits of a society built through a collective effort.
Had our ancestors had this “rugged individualist” aka “I’ve got min screw you!” mentality, humankind would probably have disappeared by now.
March 5th, 2009 at 4:21 pmAs usual I have no problem chipping in to help others especially if those others are in need of medical assistance. I don’t mind doing it just because it is the right thing to do but for those that don’t get that remember that an investment by society up front in things like basic healthcare saves much more later on. Either way a community of human beings is impacted by the health and well being of the members of that community so I find it fiscally responsible for me to pay to care for others as well.
March 5th, 2009 at 4:26 pmDon’t waste time talking to Alejandro. He’s another troll who has no point. Has no logic and is here to waste the time of others.
March 5th, 2009 at 4:29 pmwow you guys like paying for illegals, and crack heads?? Insurance companies are not evil , it is the worthless people sucking the companies dry and lawyers like obama.
We all pay for illegals, and crack heads, and drunks, and crazies like you… whenever they go to the Emergency Room when their conditions are extreme…
It would be far cheaper to pay for preventative care than it is to pay for Emergency care but Conservatives have never been about saving money, have they?
Insurance companies may not be evil… but they sure act like they are.
March 5th, 2009 at 5:43 pmNo one should make a profit on the sick or injured.
Let me see if I have this right. Insurance companies good. Lawyers bad. Is that it? What about lawyers employed by insurance companies?
March 5th, 2009 at 5:44 pmOh and sure I am happy to chip in for some treatment for the crackhead. It is in the best interest of my society. It is sort of like midnight basketball and prison job training. Saves money in the long run and thus two birds are killed by the same stone. Fiscal responsibility and human decency
March 5th, 2009 at 5:48 pmFiscal responsibility and human decency
Alien concepts to a conservative…
March 5th, 2009 at 5:52 pmbarack obomber Says:
Do YOU like being a moron and a sick moral retard? Do you LIKE being stupid and brainwashed? Do you think any of the garbage that Rush puts into your worthless empty head has any relevance to reality? Do you like being so pathetically stupid that you do nothing but embarass yourself? You are an ignorant punk. You are a troll that should be banned since you have never once added anything worth disucssing in any post you have ever made. Have the decency to be embarassed for yourself you pathetic cretin
March 5th, 2009 at 5:58 pmHey! Obamber, wasn’t that you I saw on the last episode of Intervention?
March 5th, 2009 at 6:02 pmInsurance companies are not evil , it is the worthless people sucking the companies dry and lawyers like obama.
hahahahahahahahaha!!!!!
i think that sentence about seals the deal on ever acknowledging barach obomber again.
March 5th, 2009 at 6:15 pmObviously healthcare is not a right…..and I choose not to provide it unless you pay my fees.
March 5th, 2009 at 6:24 pmObviously healthcare is not a right…..and I choose not to provide it unless you pay my fees.
Obviously you don’t work in an Emergency Room…
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Insurance/KnowYourRights/KnowYourEmergencyRoomRights.aspx
March 5th, 2009 at 6:38 pm… and, of course, Emergency Rooms are where the uninsured end up… when their conditions are extreme and expensive to treat… and YOU and I end up paying 3x what we would have paid if they’d just visited the doctor for preventative care!!!!
What a system you’ve worked out johngalt09!!!
I understand you really feel you have to stick it to the poor but don’t you realize you’re stabbing yourself in the back to do it?
March 5th, 2009 at 6:51 pmTo be expected! Wamp is typical southern right-wing trash.
March 5th, 2009 at 7:15 pmWamp claims to be a good Christian! The Bible told him so.
March 5th, 2009 at 7:17 pmObviously you don’t work in an Emergency Room…
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/ Insurance/ KnowYourRights/ KnowYourEmergencyRoomRights.aspx
which is why I, and thousands of others, choose not to work in ER’s and why most big-city ER systems are irreversibly broken with most services unavailable much of the time.
We wish you the best of luck in exercising your right to healthcare.
March 5th, 2009 at 7:46 pmWe wish you the best of luck in exercising your right to healthcare.
You haven’t addressed the cost issue… yes, this is a crappy way of providing Health Care… I want to change it… why do you want it to stay crappy? So crappy that “most big-city ER systems are irreversibly broken with most services unavailable much of the time.”
Selfish much?
March 5th, 2009 at 7:53 pmHere’s hoping you never need the services of one of those big-city ER systems, huh?
March 5th, 2009 at 7:56 pmWhether it’s a privlege, or a “right” for Americans, none of this can be addressed in reality until the flood if illegals bankrupting the health care system is actually, factually, and honestly addressed.
Of course in the orwellian world of liberal/progressives….this will never take place.
Why does barry sotero/obama have parties at the white house featuring $100/lb imported wagyu beef?
Oops! I forgot. “He’s just like us.” Not me or most americans….rather liberal/progressives it seems….
March 5th, 2009 at 8:03 pmthat’s what you’ve got, Chowduh?
the buffet?
seriously?
March 5th, 2009 at 8:12 pmi don’t even think you’ve got permission to say that. did you get permission to say that? you might have a heap’o'pologizin’ to do.
March 5th, 2009 at 8:13 pmWhether it’s a privlege, or a “right” for Americans, none of this can be addressed in reality until the flood if illegals bankrupting the health care system is actually, factually, and honestly addressed.
Show me this ‘flood’ of which you speak… you mean if we had universal health care and the working poor didn’t have to rely on Emergency Rooms for treatment?
That’s what I’ve been saying…
Why does barry sotero/obama have parties at the white house featuring $100/lb imported wagyu beef?
It was one White House party. Why do you ask? Why do conservative/regressives think they’re like ‘most’ Americans when poll after poll (and election after election) show that most Americans approve of the job that Obama is doing?
March 5th, 2009 at 8:14 pmI put some of my med. history in this thread to show how everyday americans are treated by the system. I’m truely surprised at the ignorance and avarice shown by some of the posters, even those who aren’t quite literate like obamer.
I get the feeling that trolls like Alejandro (fake name) make more money on their investments when care is denied.
March 5th, 2009 at 10:27 pmAs for the rest of the fools who think denying care is a good thing, don’t worry, what goes around comes around and you’ll be crying the hardest in the end.
Are you some liberal/progressive or something?
I know this is the orwellian-esque site, a conduit of soros, but still, where do you live, vermont? You gotta be a liberal/progressive to be so insulated and isolated.
Go to any major city in CA/TX/CO/FL and walk thru their emergency room. I’m in CO and taking a walk thru DGH’s maternity ward, all you hear is mexicans and most are, I’d guess about 15.
I can read what you’re saying. And what you’re saying by saying that is you’re really not attached to reality, so as I stated, you gotsta be a liberal/progressive.
Lessee….liberal/progressive nutjobs stating “no/open borders” combined with “free health care for everyone”?
That will absolutely bankrupt any country that combines those two. You live in new hampshire? Maine?
If your isolated town has a social security office, “educate/enlighten” yourself and go down there. It’s not full of old people, it’s full of teen age girls with babies (medicaid). But that’s assuming you aren’t the typical liberal/progressive and are isolated. If need be, drive a day or so to the nearest big city and do it there.
Because it was repeated by the obamabots over and over and over, just like they are programmed, that “he’s just like us” and “he gets it”.
I don’t eat 100 bux a pound anything, nor do I know anyone that does. I don’t know anyone that’s been to prestigious, private educational institutions their whole life either.
Come to think of it, I don’t know anyone from haaavaaaard or any one of the IV league schools.
Never knew or met a “community organizer” as most of the people I know and/or met have had to work for a living.
I know this is a soros funded liberal/progressive board, but even stating that, your post isn’t even tangentially connected to reality.
Has there been other elections after barry sotero/obama got annointed? You did say “election after election”.
BTW, that historic failure, jimmy carter, ya know, that guy that said, “nu-clar”–his “approval” rate was in the high 70s IIRC. He turned out to be a flop, but his drop off the cliff in “approval” wasn’t as dramatic as sotero’s.
Since sotero got elected, the dow keeps going down and down, each time he opens his mouth to read someone elses script from his teleprompters.
So, who is “bill biden” anyway? Was the “genius” obama/sotero referring to “the next president” as he called him and the DNC, joe biden?
And isn’t “bill biden” giving a “not open to the press” speech to the bigwigs of the unions at a fab 5 star resort in florida today?
THink they’ll have congressional hearings on that and have tired old democrats grill them as to their “non-commerical flight” they took to get there and the posh quarters/festivities?
Truly more “change” from a “transparent administration”.
And you suckers took the bait, hook, line and sinker.
And keep defending it.
And keep imbibing the kool aid at soros funded internet spickets….
Orwell is now.
March 6th, 2009 at 12:03 amWhat makes people who can pay for their insurance think that they’ve always payed for all their medical care? Even if a person payed cash for their open heart surgery, they haven’t payed for open heart surgery. Where do people think medical technology and knowledge comes from? Do they think it comes from the doctor in the same way that some children think that food comes from the store?
Sheesh.
March 6th, 2009 at 12:21 amChowda,
That’s some confusig shi* your spewing.
March 6th, 2009 at 2:51 am#81 Rich H,
O.K. here’s my short and current story.
Molar #15 is partially necrotic and needs a root canal and possible crown.
Est. cost at a dental school is $850.00 – $1000.00 Just for the root canal. The crown will cost an additional $250.00.
I currently am earning approximately $1200.00 a month on my commission based job. (bad economic times = reduced income)
My employer does not offer health coverage.
I am male and the local community dental clinic will only take new patients IF they are pregnant. Children get treated even before emergencies. They take walk ups 2x’s a week, but you MUST be there at 9 am and wait possibly all day for an opening(forcing me to miss a days wages) with no guarantee of even being seen for their evaluation.
What complicates it more, is that the community clinic CAN NOT guarantee that I be seen by a doctor capable of treating a root canal on that particular tooth.
Currently, addictive pain killers are all I can afford while I save the money for a real appointment.
So, here we have someone who is possibly becoming addicted to pain killers because he can’t afford an out of pocket expense to fix a tooth.
March 6th, 2009 at 3:54 amI know this is a soros funded liberal/progressive board, but even stating that, your post isn’t even tangentially connected to reality.
Has there been other elections after barry sotero/obama got annointed? You did say “election after election”.
Didn’t we have some type of election in 2006? Oh yeah, where the Republicans got trampled…
Come to think of it, I don’t know anyone from haaavaaaard or any one of the IV league schools.
Never knew or met a “community organizer” as most of the people I know and/or met have had to work for a living.
And yet didn’t you guys say you wanted to drink a beer with W? A man who never worked a day in his life… born into privilege and saved from himself at every turn by money? And you’ve obviously never met a community organizer because most of the ones I’ve met are some of the hardest working people I’ve ever met…
Go to any major city in CA/TX/CO/FL and walk thru their emergency room. I’m in CO and taking a walk thru DGH’s maternity ward, all you hear is mexicans and most are, I’d guess about 15.
I wanna see the ‘flood’ of illegals… no numbers? no citation?
March 6th, 2009 at 10:38 amI agree Emergency rooms are overcrowded, that’s why it would be CHEAPER and more EFFICIENT to have a universal health care system that dealt with everyone OUTSIDE of the Emergency Room with preventative care… can you read?
EnnuiDivine Says:
Has anyone asked Mr. Wamp what he believe ARE rights?
You know, other than to carry guns and for embryos to exist unfettered and whatnot..
Ennui, they are found in the Constitution and the 27 Amendments to the Constitution.
March 6th, 2009 at 10:38 amEducation is bad. Dropping out of school like Limbaugh and Hannity is good. Gotcha.
March 6th, 2009 at 10:43 amLibertyLover Says:
Well, if Healthcare isn’t a right, then he won’t mind if Congress votes itself no healthcare for any of it’s members.. I’m mean that’s socialism, right?
Members of Congress should pay for their own healthcare, it shouldn’t be the responsibility of the taxpayers, why should the taxpayers pay for their privilege?
They pay for a healthcare plan just like the majority of people do in this country. How is “Congress voting for no Healthcare” Socialism?
No one is turned away from any Hospital because they do not have Healthcare coverage. It is the law in this country already. I do mean “No One”.
March 6th, 2009 at 10:51 amNo one is turned away from any Hospital because they do not have Healthcare coverage. It is the law in this country already. I do mean “No One”.
No one is turned away if it is an ‘emergency…’
March 6th, 2009 at 10:56 amPlenty of people are turned away for aches and pains.
And because they wait until those aches and pains ARE an emergency we end up paying 3x what it would have cost if we had just treated them early…
Universal health care SAVES money. It IMPROVES people’s quality of life.
Why can’t you guys get that through your thick skull?
And because they wait until those aches and pains ARE an emergency we end up paying 3x what it would have cost if we had just treated them early…
See Max-1’s story at #179 for an example.
March 6th, 2009 at 10:58 amEducation is bad. Dropping out of school like Limbaugh and Hannity is good. Gotcha.
It worked for Bill Gates also. As a matter of fact it has worked for a lot of people in this country.
March 6th, 2009 at 10:58 amBill Gates is a ’self-made man’… he took his family’s millions and turned them into billions… which beats the Republican model of ’self-made man’ I guess… Bush took his families millions and crashed an airplane, an oil company, the Texas Rangers and then the Country! Woo Hoo!
March 6th, 2009 at 11:01 amHe didn’t take his Family’s millions and turn it into billions.
Yes his family was upper middle class but he took an idea and turned it into a business. It started in a Garage not a think tank. His parents thought he was crazy and didn’t participate in his venture.
I didn’t mention Bush anywhere in my comment belac.
Do you have an obsession with Bush? Most Liberals do but do you?
My point is that you don’t need Higher Education if you’re intelligent enough to make it in this world without it and can think for yourself already.
Of course you have to add hard work and a bit of inspiration to the mix.
March 6th, 2009 at 11:09 amFine- I agree… you can make it without higher education but you can’t make it without being healthy… which is why we need universal health care.
So people can continue to make it in the world with ‘hard work and inspiration’…
March 6th, 2009 at 11:12 ambelac Says:
No one is turned away from any Hospital because they do not have Healthcare coverage. It is the law in this country already. I do mean “No One”.
No one is turned away if it is an ‘emergency…’
Plenty of people are turned away for aches and pains.
And because they wait until those aches and pains ARE an emergency we end up paying 3x what it would have cost if we had just treated them early…
Universal health care SAVES money. It IMPROVES people’s quality of life.
Why can’t you guys get that through your thick skull?
No one is turned away belac. Even if it’s just aches and pains. Anyone can come up with a horror story. Just look at those countries who do have a National health plan.
So your point is?
March 6th, 2009 at 11:14 amFrom the link in my post above:
And yes… look at those countries with a National health plan… they have lower infant mortality rates, lower obesity rates, longer lives and report being happier with their Health Care than Americans… and they pay less than Americans for it.
So your point is?
March 6th, 2009 at 11:17 ambelac Says:
Fine- I agree… you can make it without higher education but you can’t make it without being healthy… which is why we need universal health care.
So people can continue to make it in the world with ‘hard work and inspiration’…
So you agree that you can make it with hard work. Great. With hard work comes the responsibility to keep yourself healthy. Most people do try to keep themselves healthy. They also pay for HMO’s to do that.
Now there are people in this country who do need assistance in that area but is scrapping the countries medical system ( the best in the world ) for a Government run system, the way to provided that? My opinion is no. Just look at Hawaii’s system. It is a mirror of Obama’s plan. How did they make out. I’ll leave you to research that. I already have.
I looked into what would happen in this country if a Nationalized plan was initiated. I did it without all the Hate Bush, Love Obama nonsense.
March 6th, 2009 at 11:24 amThat would be the same Bill Gates who said, “Higher education is the best possible path for promoting equality and improving lives here in America,” right? The guy who created the Gates Millennium Scholar Program?
March 6th, 2009 at 11:26 amI looked into what would happen in this country if a Nationalized plan was initiated.
Bull, ’cause if you did you’d realize that countries with national health care pay LESS than we do and receive BETTER care.
Our medical system is FAR from the best in the world by any measure… we have smart doctors and good schools but not enough of them. Show me a country with nationalized health care who wants our system… I’ll save you the trouble- you won’t.
And I’m glad you brought up responsibility.
We, as an prosperous industrialized nation have a responsibility to stop people making a profit on the sick and start taking care of our citizens. It’s the responsible thing to do.
March 6th, 2009 at 11:31 ambelac Says:
From the link in my post above:
What you’re not entitled to
If you’re not having an emergency, then the hospital emergency room does not have to treat you. The hospital most likely will direct you to your own doctor or to a less-intensive-care setting, such as a community health clinic.
And yes… look at those countries with a National health plan… they have lower infant mortality rates, lower obesity rates, longer lives and report being happier with their Health Care than Americans… and they pay less than Americans for it.
So your point is?
Again. No one can be turned away from any hospital in this country because they cannot afford to pay for treatment. Aches and Pains or not. There are already plans put into place by this Government to pay for that treatment.
belac. I lived in two countries that had National healthcare. Have you? I speak from my personal experience. They are not what you think they are. Monthly waiting lists for medical treatment. The Government makes the decision on what is a priority. Admittance for any treatment is dictated by how many beds there are and whether a doctor is available.
No belac they are not what you think. That is why so many common people come to the United States for treatment.
March 6th, 2009 at 11:33 amWe, as an prosperous industrialized nation have a responsibility to stop people making a profit on the sick and start taking care of our citizens. It’s the responsible thing to do.
Socialism you mean. Oh and the last time I looked belac, we aren’t so prosperous right now are we?
You just lost your own argument.
Bull, ’cause if you did you’d realize that countries with national health care pay LESS than we do and receive BETTER care.
So you call me a liar belac. It may cost less but at what COST?
March 6th, 2009 at 11:36 amAgain. No one can be turned away from any hospital in this country because they cannot afford to pay for treatment. Aches and Pains or not. There are already plans put into place by this Government to pay for that treatment.
And it costs us 3x what it would cost if people just went to their local doctors earlier and didn’t wait until they HAD to seek treatment in the EMERGENCY ROOM.
Show me statistics of ‘common people’ coming here for treatment.
Rich people come for treatment ’cause we ration not by need but by ability to pay… a far less fair system if you ask me, but maybe you think Doctors should treat the rich before the sick…
March 6th, 2009 at 11:37 amBelac.
Do you always make your decisions based on emotion?
March 6th, 2009 at 11:38 amOh and the last time I looked belac, we aren’t so prosperous right now are we?
You just lost your own argument.
No, I didn’t. What costs are killing manufacturing in the United States? Health Care and Retirement costs…
How about Small Business, what’s their biggest burden?
Health Care and Retirement costs…
Shouldn’t we relieve them of this burden so they can be more competitive in the global marketplace (lower costs, healthier workers)
So you call me a liar belac. It may cost less but at what COST?
Show me the country with national health care that wants our health care system… I’ll wait. I can point to dozens of polls that show the exact opposite…
and this? It may cost less but at what COST?
WTF?
March 6th, 2009 at 11:41 amAt the cost of lower COSTS and higher CARE!
Do you always make your decisions based on emotion?
No, a national health care system is MORE efficient, CHEAPER, and results in a HEALTHIER populace… those are reasons, not emotions.
Why do you like paying 3x the costs for ineffectual and overcrowded Emergency Rooms?
March 6th, 2009 at 11:43 amShow me statistics of ‘common people’ coming here for treatment.
Rich people come for treatment ’cause we ration not by need but by ability to pay… a far less fair system if you ask me, but maybe you think Doctors should treat the rich before the sick…
People routinely come to the Us from Canada for example. The Border hospitals are full of them and you know it. Canada sends people to the US regularly because of the lack of beds there. They routinely send pregnant women here for treatment.
People come here from Germany for transplants, chemo, cancer treatments, surgery and many other reasons. So if you don’t know this then you are making an uninformed argument belac.
You keep bringing up the cost of treatment. Germany pays as much as 70% in taxes for their Social programs. That’s income taxes belac. How expensive is their programs.
March 6th, 2009 at 11:44 amI’d like to chime in and join belac in his statements. Jay – I found this statement of yours interesting:
belac. I lived in two countries that had National healthcare. Have you? I speak from my personal experience. They are not what you think they are. Monthly waiting lists for medical treatment. The Government makes the decision on what is a priority. Admittance for any treatment is dictated by how many beds there are and whether a doctor is available.
In THIS country, people can also wait months before they get in to see a physician, especially specialists. An example: my sister has recently returned to her home state after suffering damage from spinal surgery and being in a long-term facility for 6 months. She needs to see a pain management specialist. Earliest appointment she can get is in five months – in AUGUST! If you are ill and call your doctor to try to get in for an appointment not previously scheduled, you will be told to go either to the ER or an urgent care facility. The average wait to be seen in either is around 4 hours, unless you are brought in after a car accident or having a heart attack. In this country, it is the business management of the various insurance companies that decide if they will approve requested treatments. And the only way you get into a hospital without lengthy waits is if you’ve gone through the ER and get admitted due to a serious situation. Furthermore, the biggest cause of bankruptcy in this country is medical bills, even for the so-called insured. That doesn’t happen in countries with nationalized health care.
Just out of curiosity, what two countries did you live in? Of which were you a citizen? And what medical care have you sought in the U.S.?
March 6th, 2009 at 11:49 amHow happy and healthy are the Germans jay?
Would they swap?
No.
This is from FOX just for you jay!
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,136990,00.html
March 6th, 2009 at 11:49 ambelac. I already agreed that there are people in this country who need assistance for their helathcare. You conveniently skipped over my comment to further your own argument.
I don’t think that scrapping our system to provide it is the solution. Again, look at Hawaii belac.
March 6th, 2009 at 11:51 amFrom the summary…
March 6th, 2009 at 11:51 am
I don’t think that scrapping our system to provide it is the solution
Because CARE should not be a profit driven industry… the insurance companies have to go… they COST us money, time and heartache and LOWER the quality of care that you receive…
March 6th, 2009 at 11:53 amI lived there belac. I have relatives there. Hundreds of thousands of young Germans leave the country every year because of the tax rates and their inability to prosper under the conditions there. The happy ones are the older Germans who live under the socialist policies. That’s fine if they want to do that, however, it’s not a good argument.
That is a fact. How happy are they belac. How ironic belac that you post a fox news html. You never believe anything that fox news says do you? You often call the “Faux News” don’t you?
You can find a URL to justify any argument both left and right belac. URL’s are a trap.
March 6th, 2009 at 11:58 amBTW jay- If I remember correctly, the problem with Hawaii’s health care plan for children was that people with coverage were dropping their private insurance to get the state coverage?
March 6th, 2009 at 11:59 amCorrect?
Can you explain how this is an argument against national health care since in that instance EVERYONE would be covered anyway?
Thanks.
You can find a URL to justify any argument both left and right belac. URL’s are a trap.
Find me an URL that strengthens your argument then…
I find studies to be a slightly better source of information than anecdotal evidence… but that’s just me.
March 6th, 2009 at 12:02 pmHow happy are they belac.
Happier than Americans… that’s what the study speaks to… and they pay less too!
March 6th, 2009 at 12:03 pmbelac Says:
I don’t think that scrapping our system to provide it is the solution
Because CARE should not be a profit driven industry… the insurance companies have to go… they COST us money, time and heartache and LOWER the quality of care that you receive…
No, because it has been shown that Socialized medicine isn’t all that it’s cracked up to be. You just can’t see that becaused you are blinded by you ideology. I however have no such vision problem.
I applaud you for sticking up for the people who have no healthcare. It’s not the cost for you belac, it’s the ideology. I stick up for the people who have no healthcare because it’s the right thing to do. I said as much more than once in our conversation. You however keep returning to the cost of things. 600 billion is pretty expensive belac. The care can be given for much, much less.
March 6th, 2009 at 12:04 pmHundreds of thousands of young Germans leave the country every year because of the tax rates and their inability to prosper under the conditions there.
Show me an URL that shows this… I have a hard time believing that.
Hundreds of thousands every year?
March 6th, 2009 at 12:05 pmI stick up for the people who have no healthcare because it’s the right thing to do.
Ahh,
March 6th, 2009 at 12:06 pmjay.
Do you always make your decisions based on emotion?
No, because it has been shown that Socialized medicine isn’t all that it’s cracked up to be.
Show me.
March 6th, 2009 at 12:07 pmWhere is your data?
Where is your study?
Where is your URL?
belac Says:
How happy are they belac.
Happier than Americans… that’s what the study speaks to… and they pay less too!
Like I said once before belac. Their system is very expensive.
You really need to read what I posted. I lived there. I have releatives there. I also had treatment there. There are many people happy to live in a Socialist state. There are just as many who escape that way of life.
March 6th, 2009 at 12:07 pmLike I said once before belac. Their system is very expensive.
Like I said forty times before jay. Our system is MORE expensive. Our system provides a LOWER quality of care for MOST citizens at a HIGHER cost… why do you support that?
March 6th, 2009 at 12:10 pmYou really need to read what I posted. I lived there. I have releatives there. I also had treatment there. There are many people happy to live in a Socialist state. There are just as many who escape that way of life.
I read it.
March 6th, 2009 at 12:12 pmI want more than anecdotal evidence of these many people who want to ‘escape’ the yoke of this ’socialist’ health care…
I’m willing to wait.
Blind squirrels have been known to find nuts now and again, haven’t they? Surely, there’s a “PMSNBC” report or two out there that you don’t totally disagree with, jay.
You sound angry.
March 6th, 2009 at 12:12 pm#
#
belac Says:
No, because it has been shown that Socialized medicine isn’t all that it’s cracked up to be.
Show me.
Where is your data?
Where is your study?
Where is your URL?
So you’re a URL guy. Experience belac. Experience. I lived there. I have relatives who still live there and have lived there all their lives. You know how to get the info.
URL’s are useless belac, like I said, you can find a URL to backup any argument pro or con.
Experience trumps URL’s and someone else’s opinions.. Try this? Google Germany tax rates. Germany immigration. Germany healthcare. If you live by URL’s then do your own homework or you can just make your decision based on emotion and not facts like you have been doing.
Why is it that you always start yelling for URL’s when you’re confronted with a person who can hold his own in a discussion? Do your own research then make the statements that you do.
March 6th, 2009 at 12:16 pmWhy is it that you always start yelling for URL’s when you’re confronted with a person who can hold his own in a discussion? Do your own research then make the statements that you do.
I have… you’ve consistently ignored my research and my points… care to answer my question about Hawaii’s child health care program?
Care to answer any question at all?
With more than just, ‘I’ve lived it and I know…’ I mean…
For someone so opposed to decisions based on emotions you sure seem violently opposed to using facts.
That’s odd.
If you don’t use emotion and you reject reason what are you left with?
March 6th, 2009 at 12:20 pmTrollspotter Says:
jay Says:
you post a fox news html.
Blind squirrels have been known to find nuts now and again, haven’t they? Surely, there’s a “PMSNBC” report or two out there that you don’t totally disagree with, jay.
jay Says: You never believe anything that fox news says do you? You often call the “Faux News” don’t you?
You sound angry.
Well if you see that as anger then you’re wrong. I’m not angry at all. How about you with your “blind nuts” statement?
You seem to want to get into this discussion but don’t quite know how.
Try this. Make an intelligent statement and then join in the discussion. It’s how normal people discuss things.
By the way, “trollspotter” kinda says it all for me.
March 6th, 2009 at 12:21 pmIf Wamp (what a name?) isn’t paying premiums then he should also have no insurance; it being a privilege you have to pay for.
March 6th, 2009 at 12:25 pmHope he gets a company that charges up the kazoo and doesn’t want to pay for any medical treatments. Then he may learn what it means when we say the PUBs live in LA-LA land.
Did he say ‘blind nuts?’ I can’t find that anywhere in Trollspotter’s post…
I see something about blind SQUIRRELS finding nuts now and again…
jay, care to answer a question yet?
March 6th, 2009 at 12:25 pmjay see #208… I’m interested as you’ve done so much research on Hawaii’s health care ‘problems’ and how they relate to the larger debate…
March 6th, 2009 at 12:27 pmbelac Says:
Why is it that you always start yelling for URL’s when you’re confronted with a person who can hold his own in a discussion? Do your own research then make the statements that you do.
I have… you’ve consistently ignored my research and my points… care to answer my question about Hawaii’s child health care program?
Care to answer any question at all?
With more than just, ‘I’ve lived it and I know…’ I mean…
For someone so opposed to decisions based on emotions you sure seem violently opposed to using facts.
That’s odd.
If you don’t use emotion and you reject reason what are you left with?
What research belac. You haven’t even begun to do any research. You just posted a URL from a source you don’t believe in. I know the tax rates there. Do you? I actually know people there. Do you? I actually lived there and had treatment there. Have you? No you just posted a URL.
I have nothing to prove here. I made my opinion heard. Now I have the “Trollspotter” here to join in. Like I already said, I think the most needy should have a healthcare plan even if it does come from the Government.
I just don’t see scrapping a system that has drawn people from all over the world for treatment under.
I like making my own decisions. I don’t care to lose it to another Government bureaucracy.
March 6th, 2009 at 12:28 pmSo you’re a URL guy. Experience belac. Experience. I lived there. I have relatives who still live there and have lived there all their lives. You know how to get the info.
URL’s are useless belac, like I said, you can find a URL to backup any argument pro or con.
See, here’s the problem jay…
If there’s an URL I can read it and talk about it’s relative merits to the discussion… if your ’source’ is your relatives I have no way of assessing or talking about it’s merit… so it’s interesting but essentially useless.
You follow?
March 6th, 2009 at 12:31 pmI like making my own decisions. I don’t care to lose it to another Government bureaucracy.
You prefer the much more inefficient private bureaucracy we have now, then?
Why won’t you say why?
March 6th, 2009 at 12:33 pmbelac Says:
jay see #208… I’m interested as you’ve done so much research on Hawaii’s health care ‘problems’ and how they relate to the larger debate…
I have already researched their plan and the difficulties that they experienced after only 7 months under their new plan. It has bankrupted the State. It was much more than a children thing as is stated in #208. The children thing is a Moot subject now isn’t it?
Why don’t you research Massachusetts, see what was tried there.
March 6th, 2009 at 12:33 pmUh, no, I didn’t make a statement about “blind nuts.” I said “Blind squirrels have been known to find nuts every now and again.” It’s a fairly common American idiom. I’m sorry if you’re not familiar with it.
Actually, I joined the discussion earlier, posting a quote from Bill Gates about how higher education is the best possible path for promoting equality and improving lives here in America. It was in response to you holding up Bill Gates as a paragon of drop outs. You didn’t want to continue that conversation, so I thought I’d enter this one.
Again, you seem very angry, and more interested in trying to insult the posters here than debating respectfully. That’s a tell-tale sign of an internet troll. So, if you don’t like my handle, you know, I’ll get over it. But really, you might be better off trying to figure out the root cause of your hatred of liberals and progressives and what drives you to try to pick fights with them instead of entering into reasoned debate for the betterment of America.
March 6th, 2009 at 12:34 pmbelac Says:
I like making my own decisions. I don’t care to lose it to another Government bureaucracy.
You prefer the much more inefficient private bureaucracy we have now, then?
Why won’t you say why?
Simple belac. It advances medical discoveries. Provides great medicines and research, and is envied by the rest of the world.
It could use some changes as I keep saying over and over and over and over. It’s not perfect, nothing is.
March 6th, 2009 at 12:36 pmBut you haven’t explained how these state plans impact the discussion of our National plan that would cover everyone… the problem in HI and MA is that people with health insurance were dropping coverage to get the state coverage… how is that a factor when the plan we are discussing WOULD COVER EVERYONE?
So your arguments about the problems with the STATE plans would be a MOOT SUBJECT, now wouldn’t they?
March 6th, 2009 at 12:38 pmIt could use some changes as I keep saying over and over and over and over. It’s not perfect, nothing is.
You keep saying ‘changes’ but you never say what those ‘changes’ are… you refuse to admit that our current system is the MOST inefficient and expensive health care system in the world despite my linking to the dreaded URL’s throughout the thread that show this…
March 6th, 2009 at 12:41 pmActually, I joined the discussion earlier, posting a quote from Bill Gates about how higher education is the best possible path for promoting equality and improving lives here in America. It was in response to you holding up Bill Gates as a paragon of drop outs. You didn’t want to continue that conversation, so I thought I’d enter this one.
Again, you seem very angry, and more interested in trying to insult the posters here than debating respectfully. That’s a tell-tale sign of an internet troll. So, if you don’t like my handle, you know, I’ll get over it. But really, you might be better off trying to figure out the root cause of your hatred of liberals and progressives and what drives you to try to pick fights with them instead of entering into reasoned debate for the betterment of America.
Did I insult you “Trollspotter”? Geeze. I was having a discussion with belac.
I’m not angry. I never get angry. I don’t even get angry when someone infers that I’m an “internet troll”.
I’m just a guy who is using his 1st amendment rights and is expressing himself on the internet just like you. So are you an “Internet Troll” too.That discussion to which you refer to morphed into this one with belac. All discussions change here but belac wanted to discuss the topic of this thread.
So. Saying that “Blind squirrels have been known to find nuts every now and again.” was your attempt to join in on the discussion then I missed that. I made my opinions known here. I’m not really looking for people to agree or disagree with me. I could care less. I have no hope of changing some peoples minds here.
OBTW there was another who tried to jump into the conversation. I just noticed him. It wasn’t intentional to skip over anyone’s comments. It just happens.
gturck Says:
If Wamp (what a name?) isn’t paying premiums then he should also have no insurance; it being a privilege you have to pay for.
Hope he gets a company that charges up the kazoo and doesn’t want to pay for any medical treatments. Then he may learn what it means when we say the PUBs live in LA-LA land.
I didn’t understand what the comment was supposed to mean but there it is.
March 6th, 2009 at 12:50 pmbelac Says:
It could use some changes as I keep saying over and over and over and over. It’s not perfect, nothing is.
You keep saying ‘changes’ but you never say what those ‘changes’ are… you refuse to admit that our current system is the MOST inefficient and expensive health care system in the world despite my linking to the dreaded URL’s throughout the thread that show this…
I believe I did. Is it a prepared bill to be presented before congress, no. Do you have one?
MOST inefficient and expensive health care system in the world despite my linking to the dreaded URL’s throughout the thread that show this…
Now that is totally up to who you are getting your info from. One URL isn’t quite sufficient to make such a broad sweeping statement. There are many who disagree I bet. Healthcare is not cheap belac. Wait until you see what it will cost when its free.
March 6th, 2009 at 12:54 pmThere are many who disagree I bet. Healthcare is not cheap belac. Wait until you see what it will cost when its free.
Find them… post them and we’ll discuss.
An argument needs more than relatives and ‘clever’ aphorisms to be an argument.
My info is sourced and I’m willing to provide those sources… yours has been anecdotal, and you’ve been unwilling to share anything further than your ‘experience’.
Ad tell me your plan again… mine is universal single-payer health care along the lines of most European Democracies… what’s yours?
March 6th, 2009 at 1:05 pmbelac Says:
But you haven’t explained how these state plans impact the discussion of our National plan that would cover everyone… the problem in HI and MA is that people with health insurance were dropping coverage to get the state coverage… how is that a factor when the plan we are discussing WOULD COVER EVERYONE?
So your arguments about the problems with the STATE plans would be a MOOT SUBJECT, now wouldn’t they?
You referred me to post #208. Well that post made reference to children. That subject IS MOOT now that the new SCHIP bill has been passed. All needy children in this country are now covered as are the members of their families.
Well belac Mass requires everyone in the state to have health coverage. If they can’t afford to get coverage then the State steps in and helps them get coverage. So you know nothing about the Mass program.
You are correct about the Hawaii problem. People who had coverage dropped their coverage to get (so called) free coverage under the state plan. Now the Hawaii plan is the same type of plan that Obama is proposing. What do you think will happen belac?
March 6th, 2009 at 1:09 pmI know far more about MA’s plan than you think… my family’s from there… so I guess I could be called an ‘expert’ huh?
I agree that there shouldn’t be a half-assed private/public partnership… I think we need to do away with private insurance companies… that’s what I’ve been proposing… that’s what will work.
If Obama’s plan ends up being less than that I will oppose it… I’ve said this… What’s your plan?
March 6th, 2009 at 1:12 pmAnd the state plan’s intricacies are moot when we have SINGLE PAYER NATIONAL HEALTHCARE… which is what I’ve been advocating all along… you have yet to show how your argument about the state plan’s problems impacts SINGLE PAYER NATIONAL HEALTHCARE which is why your argument about the states is nonsensical in our current discussion…
March 6th, 2009 at 1:15 pmWhat’s your plan?
You seem to be arguing that private/public partnerships don’t work.
I agree. They don’t get the job done.
What’s your plan?
March 6th, 2009 at 1:16 pmbelac Says:
There are many who disagree I bet. Healthcare is not cheap belac. Wait until you see what it will cost when its free.
Find them… post them and we’ll discuss.
An argument needs more than relatives and ‘clever’ aphorisms to be an argument.
My info is sourced and I’m willing to provide those sources… yours has been anecdotal, and you’ve been unwilling to share anything further than your ‘experience’.
Ad tell me your plan again… mine is universal single-payer health care along the lines of most European Democracies… what’s yours?
I’m one. Wait until I have all the people who feel as I do sign on to this forum.
My experience, and I might add, is a direct experience trumps your URL’s. It will every time. I told you where to get some information but your mind is already made up. I knew that when I started posting here. Nothing, and I repeat, nothing is going to change your mind. Am I correct in assuming this belac?
My plan is a system where people who can pay for healthcare do so. Those who cannot, get Government assistance. Much cheaper that the proposed 600 billion (scrap our system and rebuild it) plan of Obama’s. I haven’t seen anything specific on Obama’s plan but if you believe in URL’s it will be something like Hawaii’s is.
Have you changed your mind yet. I didn’t think so. Now what. The same type of response as your last one?
Do you think that FREE healthcare will really be free? So far there is a 600 billion kitty being set up as a kicker to the new program. 600 billion belac. And you’re worried about what it’s costing now. At least that has been most of your argument.
March 6th, 2009 at 1:22 pmNo, you didn’t insult me because I don’t get insulted easily, especially not here on teh internetz. That’s why I said “trying to insult.” You know, suggesting I wasn’t a normal person, hadn’t made an intelligent statement, didn’t know how to converse, etc. Pretty uncalled for. It’s one of the reasons why you come off as angry.
Well, jay, everyone gets angry now and again. It’s part of being human! The idea that you never get angry just isn’t credible. So why do you want me to believe that you never get angry? Do you see anger as a kind of weakness?
First off, I have no interest in taking away your 1st amendment rights. Free speech is a good thing. Diversity of opinion is good. The reason why someone would potentially identify you as an internet troll has nothing to do with the fact that you are freely speaking.
Those who troll liberal websites seem to have a fixation on making those gosh darn liberals feel bad. You can read their posts and practically hear them begging, “please feel bad, liberals.” These are angry posts from angry people who feel a deep sense of powerlessness in their lives. They’re desperate to do something, anything, to strike back at a feeling they have that their political opponents are looking down their noses at them. So they lash out.
As a left-leaning moderate, I appreciate that most of Rush Limbaugh’s dittoheads aren’t going to see eye to eye with my politics. That’s fine. I’m cool with them bad mouthing liberals; it’s what they do. So I don’t go to their websites and try to insult them to make them to feel inferior so I can feel some puerile sense of joy. Because that would be trolling.
If people here suspect that you’re an internet troll, it may be because that’s how some of your posts come across.
March 6th, 2009 at 1:24 pmbelac Says:
And the state plan’s intricacies are moot when we have SINGLE PAYER NATIONAL HEALTHCARE… which is what I’ve been advocating all along… you have yet to show how your argument about the state plan’s problems impacts SINGLE PAYER NATIONAL HEALTHCARE which is why your argument about the states is nonsensical in our current discussion…
The state plan was an example of what could be done on a national scale. A lot cheaper too. And it works unlike Hawaii’s plan.
March 6th, 2009 at 1:25 pmWhich number is larger?
600 billion or 2.4 TRILLION?
’cause 2.4 TRILLION is what Americans spent on Health Care in 2007, see why National Health Care would be more efficient and cheaper yet?
the dreaded URL citation…
http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml
the dreaded quote…
March 6th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
Whaddya know… Germany does it cheaper!!!
March 6th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
Weird?
Facts, they’re messing with my head jay!
March 6th, 2009 at 1:30 pmjay?
Did you read the facts yet?
Did you change your mind yet?
March 6th, 2009 at 1:36 pm#
#
Trollspotter Says:
jay Says:
Did I insult you “Trollspotter”?
No, you didn’t insult me because I don’t get insulted easily, especially not here on teh internetz. That’s why I said “trying to insult.” You know, suggesting I wasn’t a normal person, hadn’t made an intelligent statement, didn’t know how to converse, etc. Pretty uncalled for. It’s one of the reasons why you come off as angry.
Not angry at all. Like I said, I never get angry. Well look at your post. If I had made it you would have jumped all over me. You know that. It was bait from a Trollspotter.
Those who troll liberal websites seem to have a fixation on making those gosh darn liberals feel bad. You can read their posts and practically hear them begging, “please feel bad, liberals.” These are angry posts from angry people who feel a deep sense of powerlessness in their lives. They’re desperate to do something, anything, to strike back at a feeling they have that their political opponents are looking down their noses at them. So they lash out.
I don’t troll liberal websites, I’m a member here. I could care less about making liberals feel bad. I could care less.
I didn’t make an angry post here. Like I said, I don’t get angry. And I don’t lash out at anyone. I have been called many names here though, many of them are really disgusting. Those names came from Liberals.
As a left-leaning moderate, I appreciate that most of Rush Limbaugh’s dittoheads aren’t going to see eye to eye with my politics.
Sorry but I don’t fall into the Limbaugh trap, and I’m not a so called “ditto head” if that’s what you’re implying.
If people here suspect that you’re an internet troll, it may be because that’s how some of your posts come across
So you are here looking for Trolls to bash. I have been nothing but courteous to belac. The insinuations came from you first, not me. Like I said “trollspotter” I’m a member here. Do you only want Liberals here? Do you see everyone that is not a Liberal as an enemy. It seems so in your post.
If having an opposing opinion comes off as being a troll then what can I say. I’m not as judgmental as you are. I thought tolerance was supposed to be a trait of the Liberals in this country. Is it or isn’t it?
Again you have gotten me off subject.
Once again
March 6th, 2009 at 1:42 pmSo, we don’t insure 1/6th of our population… but we pay almost twice what other industrialized nations pay as a portion of GDP despite their insuring ALL their citizens?
Weird.
March 6th, 2009 at 1:43 pmYou keep talking about how this won’t be free jay… but you ignore how much more EXPENSIVE your private/public partnership plan would be… why?
March 6th, 2009 at 1:47 pmjay?
March 6th, 2009 at 1:50 pmNo gut feelings about my numbers being wrong jay?
March 6th, 2009 at 1:59 pmNo experience that trumps the facts?
Where’d you go jay?
Oh well…
March 6th, 2009 at 2:01 pmI’m sorry? Jumped all over you? What was the “bait” in my post?
Really? So you didn’t say:
“I have no Idea who you are we have never met but one thing is for certain Moron won’t quite do you justice. Bigot maybe. Idiot for sure.”
“Do you feel safe here in your Liberal Mutual circle jerk?”
“You Liberal idiots think your the anointed ones but all of your hateful posts here show two things.
1) Your all full of hate.
2) Your all scared.
We Conservatives aren’t going anywhere. The country will need us to repair the damage you Liberal morons are causing.
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/02/28/santorum-cpac-obama/
You’re awfully touchy, jay. I was purely using Limbaugh as an example. I’m perfectly willing to believe you don’t hang on Rush’s every word.
No, then I’d be going by “Trollbasher.” I’m happy to just spot them. I’m sorry if you feel bashed.
“Do you always make your decisions based on emotion?”
“How ironic belac that you post a fox news html. You never believe anything that fox news says do you? You often call the “Faux News” don’t you?”
“Do you have an obsession with Bush? Most Liberals do but do you?”
Courteous?
I get the sense that you’re projecting. It’s hardly “intolerant” of opposing opinions to take issue with a poster who calls people morons and idiots, don’t you think?
How did I get you off subject? How much power do you think I have over what you choose to post?
March 6th, 2009 at 2:03 pmBy several measures, health care spending continues to rise at a rapid rate and forcing businesses and families to cut back on operations and household expenses respectively.
In 2008, total national health expenditures were expected to rise 6.9 percent — two times the rate of inflation.1 Total spending was $2.4 TRILLION in 2007, or $7900 per person1. Total health care spending represented 17 percent of the gross domestic product (GDP).
U.S. health care spending is expected to increase at similar levels for the next decade reaching $4.3 TRILLION in 2017, or 20 percent of GDP.1
U.S. health care spending is expected to increase at similar levels for the next decade reaching $4.3 TRILLION in 2017, or 20 percent of GDP.1
Projections, not fact.
1 Total spending was $2.4 TRILLION in 2007, or $7900 per person1. Total health care spending represented 17 percent of the gross domestic product (GDP).
Germany spends 10.7 of their GDP. Lets see 80 Million Germans. 2.7 trillion GDP. Not as cheap as you are trying to make it out to be. Remember in Germany, non citizens don’t get free healthcare unlike here.
It’s not that cheap belac. we’re only looking at 5.3 %. And what do you get for it.
You see figures lie. They can be made to say whatever you want them to.
March 6th, 2009 at 2:17 pmBlind Squirrels Trollspotter. Really? So you didn’t say:
“I have no Idea who you are we have never met but one thing is for certain Moron won’t quite do you justice. Bigot maybe. Idiot for sure.”
“Do you feel safe here in your Liberal Mutual circle jerk?”
“You Liberal idiots think your the anointed ones but all of your hateful posts here show two things.
1) Your all full of hate.
2) Your all scared.
We Conservatives aren’t going anywhere. The country will need us to repair the damage you Liberal morons are causing.
You bet bet I did. In response to who though. Not here.
You’re awfully touchy, jay. I was purely using Limbaugh as an example. I’m perfectly willing to believe you don’t hang on Rush’s every word.
Sorry I don’t concern myself with the Rush thing. Sorry
How did I get you off subject? How much power do you think I have over what you choose to post?
Belac and I are discussing healthcare not Rush.
Sorry but I’m not biting. You hold now power over me. Sorry.
If you want to get back on subject fine.
March 6th, 2009 at 2:24 pmLet me help…
US health care cots in 2007 were 17 percent of GDP or 2.4 TRILLION Dollars
German costs were 10.7 percent of GDP (germany’s GDP is $2.863 trillion) or 286 billion…
which number is bigger?
And, hey, I thought you knew about Germans? What happened here? It seems they’re happy to pay and happy with their services…
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91971406
March 6th, 2009 at 2:27 pmHey Trollspotter, you’ve been to “The Basement”. Great. Now who are you? Twajie, Eric, Trajan, Lawrence?
March 6th, 2009 at 2:28 pmWait, non-citizens don’t get covered in Germany?
What happened here?
March 6th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
Number’s only lie when you misunderstand them jay…
March 6th, 2009 at 2:31 pmbelac Says:
Let me help…
US health care cots in 2007 were 17 percent of GDP or 2.4 TRILLION Dollars
German costs were 10.7 percent of GDP (germany’s GDP is $2.863 trillion) or 286 billion…
which number is bigger?
And, hey, I thought you knew about Germans? What happened here? It seems they’re happy to pay and happy with their services…
It doesn’t mean a thing. There are 300 million people in the US belac 80 million in Germany and that number is dwindling because of the numbers of citizens leaving the country for greener pastures. “The German Census” Germany also do not cover non citizens in their plan and we do. We even care for illegal aliens and Germany does not.
Numbers are only relevant if you look at percentages. Germany 10.7% US 17%. One more thing you fail to consider. Who are counting the beans and what are they looking for as a result.
March 6th, 2009 at 2:34 pmWhat do you say to this ‘evidence’ jay?
March 6th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
belac Says:
Number’s only lie when you misunderstand them jay…
Numbers show what the person is looking for and can be made to show any results desired.
March 6th, 2009 at 2:36 pmRight- jay… that’s why we’re looking at costs as a PERCENTAGE of GDP… understand?
German 10.7%
U.S. 17%
Which is bigger?
March 6th, 2009 at 2:38 pmHow are they covering all their citizens cheaper while we we leave 1/6th uninsured?
Questions, I have…
belac Says:
What do you say to this ‘evidence’ jay?
Germans really hate any hint of unfairness in health care. The fundamental idea is that everybody must be covered and, preferably, everybody should get equal treatment. So the fact that 10 percent or so can buy some perks is an irritant — something Germans complain about but manage to put up with.
But it’s unthinkable that 48 million people wouldn’t have health insurance at all — the situation in America. As an American, Chris thinks that’s shameful. “It’s terrible,” he says. “It’s unbelievable. It shouldn’t happen.”
Germans, he says, would never tolerate that. And their system has been working pretty well for 125 years.
So then you should move to Germany I guess. Comments from a Socialist society that’s all. Like I said about 100 thousand young people leave the country because of its high taxes and Socialist programs. The German census.
March 6th, 2009 at 2:39 pmNumbers show what the person is looking for and can be made to show any results desired.
Explain how I can manipulate the cost as percentage of GDP to my ends?
It is what it is…
March 6th, 2009 at 2:40 pmLike I said about 100 thousand young people leave the country because of its high taxes and Socialist programs. The German census
Again I ask…
Link?
March 6th, 2009 at 2:40 pmSo then you should move to Germany I guess.
No, I should work to make the United States more like Germany in this respect, that’s the American way… hard work and improvement, right.
March 6th, 2009 at 2:42 pmbelac Says:
Right- jay… that’s why we’re looking at costs as a PERCENTAGE of GDP… understand?
German 10.7%
U.S. 17%
Which is bigger?
How are they covering all their citizens cheaper while we we leave 1/6th uninsured?
Questions, I have…
A good question belac. They don’t cover non citizens so they are not a burden on the system. They employ large numbers of Turks, Greeks, people from the Baltic states. They are only allowed to stay for 2 years on a working visa after that they have to leave the country and re-apply for another visa.
They are not a burden on their system like non citizens are here and especially illegal aliens who cost this country billions of dollars in healthcare costs. So when you look at everything then the numbers you have are pretty much meaningless.
March 6th, 2009 at 2:45 pmbelac Says:
So then you should move to Germany I guess.
No, I should work to make the United States more like Germany in this respect, that’s the American way… hard work and improvement, right.
I can’t deny that fact belac. Obama is going to do what he is going to do. I have no power over that either. I do have an opinion on the matter thought.
The Move to Germany statement was made “Tongue and cheek”, I hope no one moves to Germany unless they really want to. Americans need to stick together in times like these.
March 6th, 2009 at 2:47 pmThey are not a burden on their system like non citizens are here and especially illegal aliens who cost this country billions of dollars in healthcare costs.
Well, I’ve seen no data about what ‘illegals’ are costing us… perhaps you could provide that?
but.
I agree that the ‘Emergency Room’ only health care plan is an inefficient burden on the system… that’s what I’ve been saying all along.
Why are you opposed to reforming it?
March 6th, 2009 at 2:49 pmIn response to liberals, jay. Here you claim you don’t get angry and you don’t lash out, and yet there’s quite an angry screed from you, calling posters idiots and morons. And it was your very first post on that thread. Then you go on to lash out, insult, threaten and vent your spleen for, well, quite a long time.
I understand why you’d want to get away from this topic. After all, it calls your credibility into question. And surely we can all agree that your credibility is relevant to this debate. So here’s the question:
Why should anyone believe your alleged experience with foreign health care systems when you’ve already been caught in such an obvious untruth?
March 6th, 2009 at 2:49 pmNone of the above.
March 6th, 2009 at 2:50 pmI Googled “German census” I also Googled German immigration and then I Googled German young leaving Germany. You can do the same.
March 6th, 2009 at 2:51 pmYou speak of this ‘tremendous burden’ illegals place on our system jay… and yet we don’t even insure 1/6th of our own citizens… and COSTS are still almost TWICE Germany’s as a PERCENTAGE OF GDP… why?
March 6th, 2009 at 2:51 pmTrollspotter Says:
jay Says:
Hey Trollspotter, you’ve been to “The Basement”. Great. Now who are you? Twajie, Eric, Trajan, Lawrence?
None of the above.
OK. All of them are there right now. Trajan and his ghosts.
March 6th, 2009 at 2:52 pmI Googled “German census” I also Googled German immigration and then I Googled German young leaving Germany. You can do the same.
I did all this… I can’t find anything to back up your claim that ‘hundreds of thousands of young Germans are leaving every year.’
Perhaps, since it was you who claimed this, you could provide the proof for once?
Again, hearing it from a relative it relatively useless for my purposes…
March 6th, 2009 at 2:55 pmbelac Says:
You speak of this ‘tremendous burden’ illegals place on our system jay… and yet we don’t even insure 1/6th of our own citizens… and COSTS are still almost TWICE Germany’s as a PERCENTAGE OF GDP… why?
Not twice belac. only 6.3%. What percent does the illegal alien question cause?
March 6th, 2009 at 2:55 pmbelac Says:
You speak of this ‘tremendous burden’ illegals place on our system jay… and yet we don’t even insure 1/6th of our own citizens…
You meant to say 1/6th are uninsured right?
March 6th, 2009 at 2:56 pmNot twice belac. only 6.3%. What percent does the illegal alien question cause?
Fine.
6.3% more for LESS coverage and LESS satisfaction.
We’re still overpaying.
And the amount we’re overpaying is rising every year.
The numbers show it.
What percent does the illegal alien question cause?
I don’t know. That’s your argument… you find the studies… I haven’t seen any data on a ‘flood’ of illegals increasing that cost by even 1% of GDP… but I have been told to visit Emergency Rooms and see all the ‘15 year old Mexicans’ there… unfortunately, that’s not very scientific.
March 6th, 2009 at 2:59 pmAnd?
Sorry, but I’m not any of those posters. I don’t have sockpuppets. I’m just me.
In scanning that thread, though, I did notice several posts where you were complaining that Trajan75 IQ thought you were someone else.
Bit ironic, don’t you think?
March 6th, 2009 at 2:59 pmYou meant to say 1/6th are uninsured right?
I think you know I did… how many are uninsured in Germany or France?
March 6th, 2009 at 2:59 pmI’ll tell you, jay.
The answer is less than 2%… but it’s a growing problem as more are choosing to be uninsured and gamble… how irresponsible, no? Oh, they’re usually the wealthy…
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1348580,00.html
March 6th, 2009 at 3:05 pmbelac Says:
Not twice belac. only 6.3%. What percent does the illegal alien question cause?
Fine.
6.3% more for LESS coverage and LESS satisfaction.
We’re still overpaying.
And the amount we’re overpaying is rising every year.
The numbers show it.
What percent does the illegal alien question cause?
I don’t know. That’s your argument… you find the studies… I haven’t seen any data on a ‘flood’ of illegals increasing that cost by even 1% of GDP… but I have been told to visit Emergency Rooms and see all the ‘15 year old Mexicans’ there… unfortunately, that’s not very scientific.
Shouldn’t you consider it though? Also with the recent passage of SCHIP there will be lower uninsured people in this country. That is already a law.
The Visit the Hospital to see the Mexicans is just a dodge used by people who have no other argument to make. If you look at state budgets though they do have figures on what is paid out for illegal medical care. I don’t think there is a national site that shows it. It would take a search of all the states to get an accurate figure.
Fine.
6.3% more for LESS coverage and LESS satisfaction.
We’re still overpaying.
And the amount we’re overpaying is rising every year.
The numbers show it.
A projection? Not a fact. Everything is rising in price. They always do.
March 6th, 2009 at 3:12 pm6.3% is not a projection.
That is the amount more of GDP we are paying for health care that serves us worse than the Germans health care system… why are you not upset?
We’re wasting money.
March 6th, 2009 at 3:14 pmAnd you want to preserve ‘most’ of this wasteful system?
Why?
Trollspotter Says:
jay Says:
OK. All of them are there right now. Trajan and his ghosts.
And?
Sorry, but I’m not any of those posters. I don’t have sockpuppets. I’m just me.
In scanning that thread, though, I did notice several posts where you were complaining that Trajan75 IQ thought you were someone else.
Bit ironic, don’t you think?
No it’s not ironic at all. It’s kinda funny and I LMAO when I’m there. I kinda like my nickname also. He gave it to me.
He’s been trying to convince people that I’m someone that I’m not. He calls me names, threatens me, slanders me and I continue to tell him he has the wrong person. He’s the reason I keep him on the hook down there. He enjoys it. I like it down there. It’s just me and him.
March 6th, 2009 at 3:17 pmYour arguments are circular jay.
SCHIP doesn’t work well ’cause people leave their insurance providers for ‘free’ health care but we shouldn’t reform health care ’cause SCHIP is already law and so people are covered.
The Emergency Rooms are driving up costs ’cause of all the illegals who get ‘free’ care but we shouldn’t reform the system ’cause we already have Emergency Care for all…
WTF?
March 6th, 2009 at 3:18 pmbelac Says:
6.3% is not a projection.
That is the amount more of GDP we are paying for health care that serves us worse than the Germans health care system… why are you not upset?
We’re wasting money.
And you want to preserve ‘most’ of this wasteful system?
Why?
I think my plan will save money. We will never know now will we? I think we can cut the waste.
March 6th, 2009 at 3:19 pmI think we can cut the waste.
Yes we can… cut out the middle man… the insurance companies need to go.
March 6th, 2009 at 3:19 pmThat’s what I’ve been saying all along…
I think my plan will save money.
But this is based on nothing but your ‘feelings’ and in conflict with the data… as I’ve pointed out above.
March 6th, 2009 at 3:22 pmjay Says:
Belac.
Do you always make your decisions based on emotion?
jay also Says:
I think my plan will save money. We will never know now will we? I think we can cut the waste.
Jay do you always make your decisions based on emotion?
March 6th, 2009 at 3:24 pmbelac Says:
Your arguments are circular jay.
SCHIP doesn’t work well ’cause people leave their insurance providers for ‘free’ health care but we shouldn’t reform health care ’cause SCHIP is already law and so people are covered.
The Emergency Rooms are driving up costs ’cause of all the illegals who get ‘free’ care but we shouldn’t reform the system ’cause we already have Emergency Care for all…
No twisting of words belac. I never said that.
WTF?
That’s not what I said belac and you know it. Obama just signed the new and improved SCHIP bill. You do know that right? It insures all disadvantaged children and their families. Those people can now be taken off of the Uninsured side of the equation. So that figure should go down, right?
March 6th, 2009 at 3:26 pmjay also Says: My experience, and I might add, is a direct experience trumps your URL’s. It will every time.
Jay do you always make your decisions based on emotion?
March 6th, 2009 at 3:29 pmjay Says:
Belac.
Do you always make your decisions based on emotion?
jay also Says:
I think my plan will save money. We will never know now will we? I think we can cut the waste.
Jay do you always make your decisions based on emotion?
You see emotion in that statement belac? I guess we have beaten this subject to death, you and I. I’m not going back to semantics.
March 6th, 2009 at 3:29 pmYou’re upset that he thinks you’re someone you’re not, and yet here you accuse me of being someone I’m not. Funny stuff.
Seems like a colossal waste of time to me, but hey, whatever floats your boat.
One of your earlier comments struck me as an interesting bit of potential psychological projection:
“Do you see everyone that is not a Liberal as an enemy.”
My answer is no, as I have friends on both sides of the political spectrum and I believe that reasonable people can respectfully disagree.
I bring up psychological projection, however, because looking through your posting history, you seem to have quite a lot of anger at liberals. Do you see them as enemies of America? How do you feel about Jim Adkisson?
March 6th, 2009 at 3:30 pmThat’s not what I said belac and you know it. Obama just signed the new and improved SCHIP bill. You do know that right? It insures all disadvantaged children and their families. Those people can now be taken off of the Uninsured side of the equation. So that figure should go down, right?
Well, not all. No. That would be Universal health care, right? And it moves them from ‘no insurance’ to ‘under insured’ which is better than nothing but not the best we can do…
March 6th, 2009 at 3:32 pmYou see emotion in that statement belac?
What I don’t see is reason… or facts.
You have ‘experience’ but you refuse to back that up with empirical evidence… so it’s an emotional decision, not a rational one.
Get it?
See my reasons, with the facts and figures to back them up?
That’s how you reason.
Give me a figure to back up ONE statement you’ve made here today… so far you’ve refused.
You just ‘know’ you’re right… like you ‘think’ your plan would save money… nothing to back it up but your ‘experience’.
Emotional decision, not a reasoned one.
March 6th, 2009 at 3:35 pmI’m not going back to semantics.
It’s not semantics… point to one claim you’ve backed up… ONE.. in ~300 posts… just one.
March 6th, 2009 at 3:37 pmJay, I’m still waiting for your response to my comment (#202). And also waiting for your answer regarding your citizenship. Since you stated that you’ve experienced the healthcare system in Germany, and as you’ve also stated, it doesn’t extend those benefits to aliens, I assume you are a German citizen. If you are one of those “hundreds of thousands” of young Germans who left Germany, just when was that? And are you now a U.S. citizen or at least a legal resident?
March 6th, 2009 at 3:38 pmYou’re upset that he thinks you’re someone you’re not, and yet here you accuse me of being someone I’m not. Funny stuff. Not at all. I don’t get upset. I think it’s funny.
When you first posted to me here I thought you were one of his socks. How would I know if I didn’t ask. That’s what people do when they want to know something isn’t it?
Seems like a colossal waste of time to me, but hey, whatever floats your boat.
One of your earlier comments struck me as an interesting bit of potential psychological projection:
“Do you see everyone that is not a Liberal as an enemy.”
Again, just an inquiry but to tell you the truth I didn’t expect you to say you did.
I bring up psychological projection, however, because looking through your posting history, you seem to have quite a lot of anger at liberals. Do you see them as enemies of America? How do you feel about Jim Adkisson?
Sorry but I take things as they come to me. I try not to judge words said in others in conversations that are current.
You have an edge on me there. I didn’t go and research your past postings to people.
Not at all. I enjoy talking to the ones who can carry on a conversation after all that’s how we all learn isn’t it. I also have many friends both Conservative and Liberal.
I don’t see anyone who expresses their opinions as an “enemy of America”. We do have the 1st amendment. I’m not familiar with Jim Adkisson so I have no feelings about him.
March 6th, 2009 at 3:44 pmSorry but I take things as they come to me. I try not to judge words said in others in conversations that are current.
I’m sorry but I take things as they come. I try not to judge someone by their past words in other conversations.
March 6th, 2009 at 3:46 pmI’m sorry but I take things as they come.
Any chance of any substantiation of anything you’ve claimed in this thread then?
Like those ‘hundreds of thousands of young Germans leaving every year?’
March 6th, 2009 at 3:50 pm#
#
winddancer Says:
Jay, I’m still waiting for your response to my comment (#202). And also waiting for your answer regarding your citizenship. Since you stated that you’ve experienced the healthcare system in Germany, and as you’ve also stated, it doesn’t extend those benefits to aliens, I assume you are a German citizen. If you are one of those “hundreds of thousands” of young Germans who left Germany, just when was that? And are you now a U.S. citizen or at least a legal resident?
I’m sorry winddancer. I didn’t see your post.
You assume wrong. You should never assume anything winddancer. I did live there and do have relatives there. I was treated in one of their hospitals and had to pay for it myself.
I was born in the good ol’ USA, served two tours in Nam and 5 years in the army. Yup, I’m a good ol’ American. I’ll have to go back to #202 to see what you posted.
March 6th, 2009 at 3:51 pmwinddancer your post is very common in a Socialized system. That is why I don’t care for it very much. I would hate to see it happen here.
The two countries I lived in were Sweden and Germany. I also spent time in the Netherlands, I have friends there, and in England, I also have friends there.
March 6th, 2009 at 3:56 pmbelac Says:
I’m sorry but I take things as they come.
Any chance of any substantiation of anything you’ve claimed in this thread then?
Like those ‘hundreds of thousands of young Germans leaving every year?’
Beat a dead horse belac. I’ll go look up the site for you. It was something I read last month. It will take a few minutes, you’ll have to hold on. You think it’s not out there do you or does everything have to be backed up by a stupid URL before you believe it?
I’ll be back.
March 6th, 2009 at 3:59 pmYou think it’s not out there do you or does everything have to be backed up by a stupid URL before you believe it?
If you’re going to base your argument around the premise that ‘hundreds of thousands of young Germans’ are leaving Germany every year ’cause of Socialized medicine… shouldn’t you provide SOME proof that they are:
A. Actually leaving in the numbers you claim; and
B. Actually leaving for the reasons you claim?
Is it just me?
March 6th, 2009 at 4:03 pmHere is just one site that shows what I said. The German census is another.
http://www.thelocal.de/national/20080430-11605.html
March 6th, 2009 at 4:05 pmbelac Says:
You think it’s not out there do you or does everything have to be backed up by a stupid URL before you believe it?
If you’re going to base your argument around the premise that ‘hundreds of thousands of young Germans’ are leaving Germany every year ’cause of Socialized medicine… shouldn’t you provide SOME proof that they are:
A. Actually leaving in the numbers you claim; and
B. Actually leaving for the reasons you claim?
Is it just me?
Now belac. You’re trying to pull one of your silly word tricks on me. I said ‘hundreds of thousands of young Germans’ are leaving Germany every year ’ You added cause of Socialized medicine… Not nice belac. Not honest either.
March 6th, 2009 at 4:09 pmSee, facinating… because you can also learn this:
So it seems we send more Americans to Germany than we get from Germany… and they still pay less in health care costs… huh, what an interesting system!
That American in the link I supplied above sure liked that system…
March 6th, 2009 at 4:10 pmGo back and read what was really said and in what context it was said in. We were talking about European Socialism when I made that statement. If that is what you are going to try and do to justify your posts then I’m sorry. I don’t play those kinds of games. Maybe you do but I don’t.
March 6th, 2009 at 4:12 pmFair enough, but sometimes past is prologue. If someone tells me one thing and then I find things they’ve said or done that point to the opposite, that’s useful information. For example, if I were to tell you that I never get angry and that I believe in respectful debate with conservatives looking to do the same, and then you saw me screaming about how conservatives are idiots and morons, you’d probably judge me to be some kind of hypocrite and few would blame you for it.
Adkisson murdered two people in a Tennessee church because they were liberals after writing a hate-filled manifesto encouraging others to do the same. When police searched his bedroom, they found books from a variety of conservative pundits: Hannity, O’Reilly, Savage, etc.
March 6th, 2009 at 4:13 pmNow belac. You’re trying to pull one of your silly word tricks on me. I said ‘hundreds of thousands of young Germans’ are leaving Germany every year ’ You added cause of Socialized medicine… Not nice belac. Not honest either.
Here’s what you said:
I lived there belac. I have relatives there. Hundreds of thousands of young Germans leave the country every year because of the tax rates and their inability to prosper under the conditions there. The happy ones are the older Germans who live under the socialist policies. That’s fine if they want to do that, however, it’s not a good argument.
In response to my saying this:
belac Says:
From the summary…
Americans are more dissatisfied than citizens of other nations with their basic health care even while paying more of their own money for treatment, a five-nation survey released Thursday notes.
How is what I said dishonest?
Read it through, the tax rates pay for the socialized medicine you were railing against that is causing Germans to leave…
Not nice jay, not honest either…
March 6th, 2009 at 4:15 pmbelac Says:
See, facinating… because you can also learn this:
Immigrants to Germany greatly outnumber the number of Germans who leave their country each year, though. From January to November about 647,000 people, the largest number of them from Poland at 136,000, moved to Germany.
Some 38,000 Romanians, 26,000 Americans, and 25,000 Turks also made the move to Germany.
Turks, Romanians, Polish, Russian, Greeks and may other countries but the Germany’s very own citizens are leaving their homeland. I can understand why many people from Turkey, Poland, Romania would want to go to Germany. They don’t just show up on the doorstep though. You have to have papers and if you don’t then you don’t get in.
So it seems we send more Americans to Germany than we get from Germany… and they still pay less in health care costs… huh, what an interesting system!
That American in the link I supplied above sure liked that system…
March 6th, 2009 at 4:19 pmAnd your point is?
How is what I said dishonest?
You added your comment to my quote as if I had said them. Sorry belac, I’m not playing. I don’t do those games.
March 6th, 2009 at 4:20 pmRight- they go and pay taxes.
March 6th, 2009 at 4:21 pmYour point is?
How is what I said dishonest?
They go there to work. As most all immigrants do. Germany has a pretty good manufacturing base and they need workers.
C’mon belac.
March 6th, 2009 at 4:22 pmBye belac.
March 6th, 2009 at 4:24 pmHere’s a study on German immigrants and how they contribute:
http://ideas.repec.org/p/iza/izadps/dp125.html
True- it’s from the late 1990’s but it’s interesting to note that the only immigrants who were a burden and not an asset to the public system were East Germans…
March 6th, 2009 at 4:25 pmBye belac. No more games.
March 6th, 2009 at 4:25 pmbye jay, better luck next time…
March 6th, 2009 at 4:25 pmThis is not a game… it is an argument you are losing.
March 6th, 2009 at 4:26 pmHave a nice day.
So jay, now that I’ve told you who Jim Adkisson is, any thoughts about him? I’m curious to know your opinion.
March 6th, 2009 at 4:26 pmbye jay, better luck next timeBy that comment you took our discussion as a contest. What was the prize? I always have good luck.
March 6th, 2009 at 4:28 pm#
#
Trollspotter Says:
So jay, now that I’ve told you who Jim Adkisson is, any thoughts about him? I’m curious to know your opinion.
I’m sorry. I missed it.
March 6th, 2009 at 4:29 pmWhat was the prize?
You sharpened my arguments and showed how utterly lacking the right’s side is on this issue… thanks!
March 6th, 2009 at 4:29 pmNo problem. It’s post #310.
March 6th, 2009 at 4:31 pmYou added your comment to my quote as if I had said them. Sorry belac, I’m not playing. I don’t do those games.
Just noticed this…
You right, I did not quote you completely accurately, I apologize… but that post was from over an hour ago and I didn’t feel like scrolling up to find it, it was lazy.
But if you didn’t mean they were leaving ’cause of the high tax rate that ’socialized’ medicine imposes what could you have possibly meant?
They just go?
I’m done with you jay, you’re a joke.
March 6th, 2009 at 4:32 pmFair enough, but sometimes past is prologue. If someone tells me one thing and then I find things they’ve said or done that point to the opposite, that’s useful information. For example, if I were to tell you that I never get angry and that I believe in respectful debate with conservatives looking to do the same, and then you saw me screaming about how conservatives are idiots and morons, you’d probably judge me to be some kind of hypocrite and few would blame you for it.
Like I said. I don’t go back and read up on people and what they said. Some things are said that have no relevance to the ongoing conversation and you can never know what is in that person’s mind at the time.
Adkisson murdered two people in a Tennessee church because they were liberals after writing a hate-filled manifesto encouraging others to do the same. When police searched his bedroom, they found books from a variety of conservative pundits: Hannity, O’Reilly, Savage, etc.
I don’t care for people who kill others for any reason. I have many books myself here. I have Chairman Mao’s, books on Che, many books on the 1st and second WW. I also have books by Trueman Capote. What’s the point?
March 6th, 2009 at 4:35 pmbelac Says:
You added your comment to my quote as if I had said them. Sorry belac, I’m not playing. I don’t do those games.
Just noticed this…
You right, I did not quote you completely accurately, I apologize… but that post was from over an hour ago and I didn’t feel like scrolling up to find it, it was lazy.
But if you didn’t mean they were leaving ’cause of the high tax rate that ’socialized’ medicine imposes what could you have possibly meant?
They just go?
I’m done with you jay, you’re a joke.
Trollspotter. belac admitted that he was wrong in posting what he did then he ends 3 hours of discussion with “I’m done with you jay, you’re a joke”
What is your opinion of that? Just curious.
March 6th, 2009 at 4:37 pmbelac in our long conversation did I ever say such things to you. “I’m done with you Jay, you’re a joke”. Does that mean I won the prize. I treated you with respect, but you feel you don’t have to return the courtesy. OK.
March 6th, 2009 at 4:42 pmNot for any reason? I think you may be the first conservative I’ve met who not only doesn’t care for the death penalty, but who believes the War on Terror should be fought in an entirely non-lethal capacity.
The point is that the right wing in this country may be radicalizing and militarizing, taking up arms against the left after being spurred on by conservative pundits’ continual screeds against liberals. At CPAC they cheered and applauded when the possibility of a nuclear bomb going off in Chicago was raised.
How do you feel about that?
March 6th, 2009 at 4:44 pmbelac admitted that he was wrong in posting what he did
Where? I apologized for not quoting you ‘completely accurately’ That was lazy.
The substance of my comment stands… this is why I’m done jay…
Early in this discussion you posted:
Well if you see that as anger then you’re wrong. I’m not angry at all. How about you with your “blind nuts” statement?
Did you apologize for your ‘word games’ there?
How about this:
jay Says:
Belac.
Do you always make your decisions based on emotion?
Did you offer any basis for your arguments but your ‘personal experience?’
I’m done with you, ’cause you are not intellectually honest.
March 6th, 2009 at 4:48 pmWell, it probably won’t surprise you to know that I thought belac won the argument pretty handily. Admittedly, I’m closer to his position than yours, but your whole “my personal experience trumps your facts” argument didn’t hold much sway with me, and your decision to end the discussion as abruptly as you did suggests to me that you knew you were losing and just wanted to get out of talking to him any way you could. I’m sorry if that comes off as harsh–I’m not trying to insult you, just calling it like I see it.
As for whether he should have called you a joke or not, no, I don’t think he should have. But then you were not exactly the epitome of courtesy to him over the course of this discussion, so I would think it hypocritical for you to act greatly aggrieved by his words.
March 6th, 2009 at 4:50 pmbelac in our long conversation did I ever say such things to you. “I’m done with you Jay, you’re a joke”.
Yep:
See this…
jay Says:
Belac.
Do you always make your decisions based on emotion?
Did you apologize?
You didn’t?!?
Weird.
March 6th, 2009 at 4:50 pmTrollspotter Says:
jay Says:
I don’t care for people who kill others for any reason.
Not for any reason? I think you may be the first conservative I’ve met who not only doesn’t care for the death penalty, but who believes the War on Terror should be fought in an entirely non-lethal capacity.
I kinda like a persons rights to life. Nothing special there. The death penalty is out of my control. If wars could be fought with noodles and no one would be hurt I would be in favor of that also, but if you break down my front door in the middle of the night I will kill you, make no mistake about that.
The point is that the right wing in this country may be radicalizing and militarizing, taking up arms against the left after being spurred on by conservative pundits’ continual screeds against liberals. At CPAC they cheered and applauded when the possibility of a nuclear bomb going off in Chicago was raised.
How do you feel about that?
Semantics at a trying time. Nothing more. As far as people taking up arms against the ruling party, it’s not new. Clinton, Waco, Oklahoma, Bush, Twin Towers, Ayers, Pentagon Black Panthers, weathermen, there are always nuts. That’s what we pay our police for, right.
March 6th, 2009 at 4:56 pmbelac Says:
belac in our long conversation did I ever say such things to you. “I’m done with you Jay, you’re a joke”.
Yep:
See this…
jay Says:
Belac.
Do you always make your decisions based on emotion?
Did you apologize?
You didn’t?!?
Weird.
You were offended by that? It was purely an observation about the way you posted belac. You made the same type of comments about the way I was posting.
See, facinating… because you can also learn this:
Not name calling like being called a “Joke”.
March 6th, 2009 at 5:02 pmYes, our police and our FBI. But do you think it’s responsible to encourage those nuts? Sean Hannity recently had a poll in which the possibility of an armed insurrection against President Obama was raised. Glen Beck says we’re on the road to militias arming themselves against the government. Is that just semantics? There are nuts and there are nuts, but some people are persuadable into violence. Adkisson was. He came to believe that all his problems were caused by liberals. Do you think they were?
March 6th, 2009 at 5:03 pmbelac Says:
I Googled “German census” I also Googled German immigration and then I Googled German young leaving Germany. You can do the same.
I did all this… I can’t find anything to back up your claim that ‘hundreds of thousands of young Germans are leaving every year.’
Perhaps, since it was you who claimed this, you could provide the proof for once?
March 6th, 2009 at 5:05 pmjay, asking someone if they always make their decisions based on emotion is a pretty obvious slap. It suggests that this person never thinks with his head. Obviously, belac’s argument is reasoned and supported by statistics. You may not agree with those statistics, but that doesn’t make them–or him–irrational.
So, out of curiosity, why did you say that to belac? Just hoping to get his goat?
March 6th, 2009 at 5:13 pmTrollspotter Says:
jay Says:
Semantics at a trying time. Nothing more. As far as people taking up arms against the ruling party, it’s not new. Clinton, Waco, Oklahoma, Bush, Twin Towers, Ayers, Pentagon Black Panthers, weathermen, there are always nuts. That’s what we pay our police for, right.
Yes, our police and our FBI. But do you think it’s responsible to encourage those nuts? Sean Hannity recently had a poll in which the possibility of an armed insurrection against President Obama was raised. Glen Beck says we’re on the road to militias arming themselves against the government. Is that just semantics? There are nuts and there are nuts, but some people are persuadable into violence. Adkisson was. He came to believe that all his problems were caused by liberals. Do you think they were?
Have you watched Keith Olbermann and Rachel Maddow, Amy Goodman, Judith LeBlanc. It’s not one sided. It never has been. Like I said there are nuts everywhere and have always been. I even saw a poll on what City will be attacked next in this country and there is even the same thing being booked in Las Vegas. I can’t tell you the odds that are being offered though.
I believe that all our problems stem from a non functionable government that has only Washington interests at mind. I think that the people in this country have lost the power to control things. Sorry to say this here but I don’t really see any difference in Obama either. But it’s still early. Who knows what will happen?
March 6th, 2009 at 5:14 pm#
Trollspotter Says:
jay Says:
You were offended by that? It was purely an observation about the way you posted belac. You made the same type of comments about the way I was posting.
Not name calling like being called a “Joke”.
jay, asking someone if they always make their decisions based on emotion is a pretty obvious slap. It suggests that this person never thinks with his head. Obviously, belac’s argument is reasoned and supported by statistics. You may not agree with those statistics, but that doesn’t make them–or him–irrational.
So, out of curiosity, why did you say that to belac? Just hoping to get his goat?
Well if you look at his replies he kept posting.
# 296,298,292,290,286,284,279,274,266,258,257,249,246,238 and many more. They all could be considered as emotional replies.
I know you have to stick up for him and that I’m here alone but he does seem pretty emotional when someone disagrees with him. Then there is #326.
March 6th, 2009 at 5:28 pmSo, out of curiosity, why did you say that to belac? Just hoping to get his goat?
I was trying to have a discussion, nothing more. Why would I want to get his goat, however, he did try a number of times to get mine in our conversation. I didn’t fall for it.
March 6th, 2009 at 5:32 pm# 296,298,292,290,286,284,279,274,266,258,257,249,246,238 and many more. They all could be considered as emotional replies.
hee hee…
March 6th, 2009 at 5:35 pmHey I had a good time here. I enjoyed talking to you Belac and Trollspotter. I really did but we are way off topic and I don’t care to play 20 questions any more. Dinner time.
Till we meet again. I enjoyed it.
Jay.
March 6th, 2009 at 5:35 pmJust the first two on the list. I believe I’ve heard of Amy Goodman, but I’ve never watched her. I have no idea who Judith LeBlanc is.
Oh, I’m not saying that there aren’t voices on the left who’ve said objectionable things. Of course there are.
But perhaps you can link me to a statement by Olbermann or Maddow calling for an armed insurrection against George W. Bush? Did either of these prominent pundits raise the question of whether or not liberals should militarize and employ violence against conservatives?
We may be talking about two different things. You seem to be talking about foreign nationals attacking American cities. It’s a very serious problem, and I’m very upset about Osama bin Laden still being at large. But I’m not talking about cities being attacked–I’m talking about Americans getting radicalized by political pundits and pushed into shooting their fellow Americans here at home. Do you think that’s a reasonable concern?
I don’t disagree with you that Washington has significant problems, and I can understand how conservatives would especially think this after eight years of, well, let’s just call them questionable decisions by George W. Bush. If W.’s not to blame and conservatism’s not to blame, then it must be Washington–I can see why conservatives would see it that way.
But if you hold out the possibility that it’s early in President Obama’s presidency and that he has the potential (however remote you may think it) to turn things around, then what’s with all the “you liberals are idiots and morons” invective? Why all the anger?
March 6th, 2009 at 5:37 pmHey jay, why no apology for the ‘word games’ with Trollspotter?
here’s what he said…
Blind squirrels have been known to find nuts now and again, haven’t they? Surely, there’s a “PMSNBC” report or two out there that you don’t totally disagree with, jay.
here’s what you said…
Well if you see that as anger then you’re wrong. I’m not angry at all. How about you with your “blind nuts” statement?
Word games, or did you misquote him slightly?
March 6th, 2009 at 5:47 pmLike I said. I don’t get angry. Go back and read the complete postings there. It comes out in the later Posts. You have taken one post and are now holding it above my head. You have a snippet of the total conversation of the evening.
I’m not the troll you are looking for. The troll you’re looking for is in “The Basement”.
As far as W is concerned. I listened to 8 years of people attacking him. Right from day one. Now people are doing the same to Obama. Does that surprise you?
The attacks continue today. It seems that there has to be a demon to attack. The new demon is Rush, Hannity, Boort and anyone with a conservative view. It’s not one sided at all even when some people try to make it seem so. On the Liberal side, Olberman, Maddow, Stewart, SNL, Colbert, Amy Goodman, Judith LeBlanc and so many others.
That’s life in politics.
March 6th, 2009 at 5:58 pmI really don’t. I don’t know belac personally, and I don’t believe in agreeing with how people conduct themselves simply because they share aspects of my political philosophy. If you had presented more/better supporting evidence for your side, it’s possible that I would have been swayed.
Having said that, I enjoyed our conversation as well, thank you for your part of it. If you get a chance to answer my question in #344 somewhere down the road, I’ll look forward to that.
You’re probably not all that interested in what I think, but my parting impression of you is a man at odds with himself. On the one hand, you seem to want a rational debate with the posters here, and on the other hand you seem to just want to get under their skin. If the hostility’s an act and you just like the attention, well, that’s what a troll is. In that case, I hope you find more productive outlets than trolling ThinkProgress. And if the hostility is real, then I’d encourage you to take another look at the potential radicalization of Americans on the left and the right, and how your aggression might be exacerbating the situation.
Yes, many of the posters here are still angry at the right. Yes. They’ve had many years of frustration with the Bush administration. They’re still venting. Conservatives have only had a few weeks of the Obama administration. I’d encourage you to give our new President some time. It’s early yet, just as you say.
Just my two cents.
March 6th, 2009 at 5:59 pmbelac Says:
Hey jay, why no apology for the ‘word games’ with Trollspotter?
here’s what he said…
Blind squirrels have been known to find nuts now and again, haven’t they? Surely, there’s a “PMSNBC” report or two out there that you don’t totally disagree with, jay.
here’s what you said…
Well if you see that as anger then you’re wrong. I’m not angry at all. How about you with your “blind nuts” statement?
Word games, or did you misquote him slightly?
Get a grip belac. No more games please. Trollspotter and I are having a discussion and your post isn’t what you are trying to make it out to be.
March 6th, 2009 at 6:01 pmYou never answered… what could you have meant by bringing up the German’s exodus if not that they were burdened by the taxes Socialized Medicine imposed?
That wasn’t your argument?
Also- I withdraw my apology… I see I put end quotes after young Germans and summarized afterwards… so I was correct… or your argument made no sense… one of the two…
If you’re going to base your argument around the premise that ‘hundreds of thousands of young Germans’ are leaving Germany every year ’cause of Socialized medicine… shouldn’t you provide SOME proof that they are:
Now belac. You’re trying to pull one of your silly word tricks on me. I said ‘hundreds of thousands of young Germans’ are leaving Germany every year ’ You added cause of Socialized medicine… Not nice belac. Not honest either.
You are not intellectually honest jay… sorry.
March 6th, 2009 at 6:01 pmYou are not intellectually honest jay… sorry.
Are you belac?
March 6th, 2009 at 6:03 pmyep.
March 6th, 2009 at 6:03 pmhere jay:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigour
March 6th, 2009 at 6:06 pmjay Says:
You are not intellectually honest belac.
I never said they were leaving because of German Healthcare. You said I did but I didn’t. Show me where I did. You won’t find it pal.
Games belac. Just games.
March 6th, 2009 at 6:07 pmYes, it surprises me to an extent.
For one thing, Obama was elected by a significant majority. No Supreme Court decision had to be made. Much of the initial resistance to Bush from the left had to do with the situation in Florida. That’s not the case with Obama. Unless you count the birth certificate thing, but even conservative blogs like Little Green Footballs have come out against that desperate argument.
Secondly, Bush was by and large widely supported by the left in the weeks after 9/11. Today we have what’s been called “an economic 9/11″ and the right’s support for Obama is nowhere to be found. Frankly, it’s a little shameful.
Anyway, I’ve got things to do here, too, so I’m going to give you the last word. Thanks again for the discussion.
March 6th, 2009 at 6:08 pmI never said they were leaving because of German Healthcare. You said I did but I didn’t. Show me where I did. You won’t find it pal.
What then was your argument? Why bring it up? Perhaps I made a wrong inference by assuming that when you said they were leaving because of the tax burden, you blamed that tax burden on the so-called ’socialized’ medicine… but I fail to see what relevance this could have otherwise.
You just brought up them leaving because of the tax burden but you don’t blame that burden on the medicine? What impact could that have on our argument then?
You are very upset about all these ‘word games’ but you seem to be the only one playing them…
March 6th, 2009 at 6:12 pmYou’re probably not all that interested in what I think, but my parting impression of you is a man at odds with himself. On the one hand, you seem to want a rational debate with the posters here, and on the other hand you seem to just want to get under their skin. If the hostility’s an act and you just like the attention, well, that’s what a troll is. In that case, I hope you find more productive outlets than trolling ThinkProgress. And if the hostility is real, then I’d encourage you to take another look at the potential radicalization of Americans on the left and the right, and how your aggression might be exacerbating the situation.
I’m 60 years old. I’m far beyond the point of being at odds with myself. A judgment of me on your part.
If the hostility’s an act and you just like the attention, well, that’s what a troll is. I wasn’t hostile at all. I was honest with my opinions. You saw hostility?????
If the hostility’s an act and you just like the attention, well, that’s what a troll is. In that case, I hope you find more productive outlets than trolling ThinkProgress. And if the hostility is real, then I’d encourage you to take another look at the potential radicalization of Americans on the left and the right, and how your aggression might be exacerbating the situation.
Hey, like I said. I’m a member here. No hostility just an opposing view. You saw aggression and radicalization in our conversation??? I’m sorry I made no such judgments of you.
Now really. I didn’t deserve that and you know it. I have conducted myself with poise and great restraint.
I say this again. I am a member here. Sometimes I find a person who wants to discuss things instead of calling names.
Now “The Basement” is a different story. It has nothing to do with what I do or say “upstairs”.
As far as your other post. It’s so long. What do you want the comment on.
March 6th, 2009 at 6:21 pmSorry belac. I’m not playing.
March 6th, 2009 at 6:22 pmYou saw aggression and radicalization in our conversation??? I’m sorry I made no such judgments of you.
Here’s the first thing you posted to Trollspotter, jay:
Well if you see that as anger then you’re wrong. I’m not angry at all. How about you with your “blind nuts” statement?
You seem to want to get into this discussion but don’t quite know how.
Try this. Make an intelligent statement and then join in the discussion. It’s how normal people discuss things.
By the way, “trollspotter” kinda says it all for me.
Like I said… you’re not being intellectually honest.
March 6th, 2009 at 6:24 pmSorry belac. I’m not playing.
Okay- just want you to be aware of these things… how you present yourself has an impact.
March 6th, 2009 at 6:25 pmStill not playing.
March 6th, 2009 at 6:27 pmGoodbye jay… hope you’ve learned something today.
March 6th, 2009 at 6:28 pmThanks for the help sharpening my arguments.
belac Says:
Goodbye jay… hope you’ve learned something today.
Thanks for the help sharpening my arguments.
You’re welcome belac. I learned a lot. How about you?
March 6th, 2009 at 6:35 pmWhat the hell makes this little turd, Wamp,..this SERVANT of the people..think he’s entitled..but not the people who are paying for him…how about we (the people) take away all Government employees Health Care ) make them pay what we have to pay for it, out of their own pocket… …see how fast the b*stards come up with an affordable health care plan for the rest of us, then, better yet..I want the same damn Health Care that Boehner, Wamp, McConnell, McCain, Pelosi, Reid and all the rest have or else they should get no health care either, (I don’t care what they think, they are not one bit more important than the rest of us are, as a matter of fact they are servants and leeches!)..if that nasty old F**K Cheney had been in the hands of the Health Care the rest of us endure and have to pay for..he would have been dead years ago..and he is nothing less than a monster..(with our stolen money in his pocket)
March 6th, 2009 at 7:01 pmI learned a lot. How about you?
I still wonder what your argument was about the young German exodus… that’s all.
March 6th, 2009 at 7:02 pmGo read what I posted.
March 6th, 2009 at 7:09 pmchabuka Says:
What the hell makes this little turd, Wamp,..this SERVANT of the people..think he’s entitled..but not the people who are paying for him…how about we (the people) take away all Government employees Health Care ) make them pay what we have to pay for it, out of their own pocket… …see how fast the b*stards come up with an affordable health care plan for the rest of us, then, better yet..I want the same damn Health Care that Boehner, Wamp, McConnell, McCain, Pelosi, Reid and all the rest have or else they should get no health care either, (I don’t care what they think, they are not one bit more important than the rest of us are, as a matter of fact they are servants and leeches!)..if that nasty old F**K Cheney had been in the hands of the Health Care the rest of us endure and have to pay for..he would have been dead years ago..and he is nothing less than a monster..(with our stolen money in his pocket)
March 6th, 2009 at 7:10 pmchabuka Says:
What the hell makes this little turd, Wamp,..this SERVANT of the people..think he’s entitled..but not the people who are paying for him…how about we (the people) take away all Government employees Health Care ) make them pay what we have to pay for it, out of their own pocket… …see how fast the b*stards come up with an affordable health care plan for the rest of us, then, better yet..I want the same damn Health Care that Boehner, Wamp, McConnell, McCain, Pelosi, Reid and all the rest have or else they should get no health care either, (I don’t care what they think, they are not one bit more important than the rest of us are, as a matter of fact they are servants and leeches!)..if that nasty old F**K Cheney had been in the hands of the Health Care the rest of us endure and have to pay for..he would have been dead years ago..and he is nothing less than a monster..(with our stolen money in his pocket)
We did without the hate posts here all day chabuka.
Really we did.
March 6th, 2009 at 7:12 pmWell for most of the afternoon. We actually had discussions about healthcare here.
March 6th, 2009 at 7:14 pmGo read what I posted.
Yeah, I did.
Here it is:
I lived there belac. I have relatives there. Hundreds of thousands of young Germans leave the country every year because of the tax rates and their inability to prosper under the conditions there. The happy ones are the older Germans who live under the socialist policies. That’s fine if they want to do that, however, it’s not a good argument.
and this:
Like I said once before belac. Their system is very expensive.
You really need to read what I posted. I lived there. I have releatives there. I also had treatment there. There are many people happy to live in a Socialist state. There are just as many who escape that way of life.
I’m wondering where you think I went wrong in inferring that you meant Health Care costs were driving them away, ’cause later you said this:
I never said they were leaving because of German Healthcare. You said I did but I didn’t. Show me where I did. You won’t find it pal.
So if it isn’t the cost of Health Care that you think is driving Germans to leave, what is it?
Yes, I understand you think it’s Socialistic overall but given we’re discussing health care I don’t think that this was such a leap:
If you’re going to base your argument around the premise that ‘hundreds of thousands of young Germans’ are leaving Germany every year ’cause of Socialized medicine… shouldn’t you provide SOME proof that they are:
I’m interested in why that upset you so…
March 6th, 2009 at 7:17 pm… it’s this that made me say you were a ‘joke’
I should have said you weren’t being intellectually honest… it just seemed so ridiculous…
March 6th, 2009 at 7:22 pmI lived there belac. I have relatives there. Hundreds of thousands of young Germans leave the country every year because of the tax rates and their inability to prosper under the conditions there.
This is my reason for the exodus belac. This is the only reason for the statement.
So if it isn’t the cost of Health Care that you think is driving Germans to leave, what is it?
It is due to the high taxes, the difficulty to start new business under the overwhelming policies and the inability to keep the money that they earn. The Gov. Regs are stifling for the young. They want more in their lives then Socialism.
They want a chance to prosper.
March 6th, 2009 at 7:26 pmThere belac. I said it twice for you.
March 6th, 2009 at 7:27 pmNo, three times.
March 6th, 2009 at 7:28 pmokay jay.
But do you see how I could find the ‘outrage’ over my substituting Socialized medicine for high taxes perplexing?
Since your argument seemed to be we don’t want SOCIALIZED MEDICINE in this country ’cause you need HIGH TAXES to pay for it and those HIGH TAXES drive ‘hundreds of thousands of young Germans’ away each year.
That seems to be your argument against single payer now… am I wrong? You think it will lead to higher taxes, right?
March 6th, 2009 at 7:30 pmI should have said you weren’t being intellectually honest… it just seemed so ridiculous… Games. Sorry. I don’t live by URL’s like you do. I don’t have to.
March 6th, 2009 at 7:32 pmI still don’t see how I was playing ‘word games’ with you…
March 6th, 2009 at 7:33 pmGames. Sorry. I don’t live by URL’s like you do. I don’t have to.
No, you don’t have to… but if you want your arguments to be taken seriously, and you seem to, you should make them clearer and argue with supporting evidence.
Not ‘I’ve lived it…’ that doesn’t do it.
That’s all…
March 6th, 2009 at 7:34 pm#
belac Says:
okay jay.
But do you see how I could find the ‘outrage’ over my substituting Socialized medicine for high taxes perplexing?
Since your argument seemed to be we don’t want SOCIALIZED MEDICINE in this country ’cause you need HIGH TAXES to pay for it and those HIGH TAXES drive ‘hundreds of thousands of young Germans’ away each year.
That seems to be your argument against single payer now… am I wrong? You think it will lead to higher taxes, right?
Yes you are wrong. It will lead to higher taxes. I think it can be done better than what is being proposed for less money and that wouldn’t put a greater tax burden on my Great, Great grand children. It’s too late for me belac. I’m already 60 years old.
March 6th, 2009 at 7:35 pmokay.
Why the outrage?
Where are the ‘word games?’
All I was saying is that if you are going to argue you’re gonna be asked to support your argument. With more than just ‘it will lead to higher taxes.”
That’s not a ridiculous request… it’s fairly common.
March 6th, 2009 at 7:41 pmbelac Says:
Games. Sorry. I don’t live by URL’s like you do. I don’t have to.
No, you don’t have to… but if you want your arguments to be taken seriously, and you seem to, you should make them clearer and argue with supporting evidence.
Not ‘I’ve lived it…’ that doesn’t do it.
That’s all… What about having experienced something doesn’t matter. You can read about it or you can do it. What makes one more important than the other. You read about something that I experienced first hand.
I don’t live by URL’s belac. You can find one to justify every point of view pro or con. They are not the beat all of information. Now researching things for yourself is a thousand times more important then having someone do the research for you. It’s a learning process.
You couldn’t find the information about the Germans leaving on Google and yet I found it in less that 5 minutes. I found it because I read it in the past. I remembered it and so I stated it. Now does having a URL back me up make my original statement more truthful. No. It was what it was.
March 6th, 2009 at 7:44 pmbelac Says:
okay.
Why the outrage?
Where are the ‘word games?’
All I was saying is that if you are going to argue you’re gonna be asked to support your argument. With more than just ‘it will lead to higher taxes.”
That’s not a ridiculous request… it’s fairly common.
March 6th, 2009 at 7:44 pmYes you are wrong.
Actually, I’m right. That is your argument. I never disagreed incedently… I did argue that those countries got far MORE for less MONEY than we are…
March 6th, 2009 at 7:46 pmNow does having a URL back me up make my original statement more truthful. No. It was what it was.
Because you can’t expect me to take your supporting facts on faith… and because when we are then able to read the same thing and discuss… like when I pointed out that plenty of immigrants are coming and more than making up for the taxes lost by the exodus… it’s part of the discussion, and it’s a courtesy… if you bring it up, you should back it up.
March 6th, 2009 at 7:50 pmI bring my research to the table… you bring yours.
I learn plenty reading the research you’ve done… I wish you’d read the research I’ve done.
March 6th, 2009 at 7:52 pmjay Says:
belac Says:
okay.
Why the outrage?
Where are the ‘word games?’
All I was saying is that if you are going to argue you’re gonna be asked to support your argument. With more than just ‘it will lead to higher taxes.”
That’s not a ridiculous request… it’s fairly common.
No outrage belac. I just don’t like playing games. If you think someone’s information is incorrect do the research to prove that it is. That’s what I find myself doing. Sometimes it takes more than a single URL. Sometime it requires deeper research. I learn many points of view and then decide what I think about the information. That is why a Person like me is here on a site like this. Not to change peoples minds. I know I will never do that. I’m here to get other peoples views on things. I already know what people think on the Conservative sites. What goes on here also goes on there.
Every now and then I get a chance to sit and talk to someone with a totally opposite opinion than mine and I learn from it.
I went to some of the threads a few minutes ago and didn’t post anything because there wasn’t any real conversation going on. Just name calling and garbage from both sides.
March 6th, 2009 at 7:53 pmbelac Says:
I bring my research to the table… you bring yours.
I learn plenty reading the research you’ve done… I wish you’d read the research I’ve done.
That’s an honest request. I will do that but it’s hard to do it while trying to hold two conversations going at the same time. I can’t keep up as it is. I’m no spring chicken you know. I do read the information when I get the time. I have your sites archived.
March 6th, 2009 at 7:56 pmIf you think someone’s information is incorrect do the research to prove that it is.
All I asked you to do was find the link… I looked, I didn’t find it right away.
It is not unreasonable to expect you to bring some of that to the table. I shouldn’t have to find what you’re reading and THEN refute it… I do my research finding facts that lead me to my conclusions, not digging for the article you read several months ago that led you to yours…
I’m happy to read it, but it isn’t too much to ask you to provide SOME documentation of your research and thought process…
That’s how this works.
March 6th, 2009 at 7:57 pmThat’s an honest request. I will do that but it’s hard to do it while trying to hold two conversations going at the same time. I can’t keep up as it is. I’m no spring chicken you know. I do read the information when I get the time. I have your sites archived.
fair enough.
March 6th, 2009 at 8:01 pmbelac Says:
Now does having a URL back me up make my original statement more truthful. No. It was what it was.
Because you can’t expect me to take your supporting facts on faith… and because when we are then able to read the same thing and discuss… like when I pointed out that plenty of immigrants are coming and more than making up for the taxes lost by the exodus… it’s part of the discussion, and it’s a courtesy… if you bring it up, you should back it up.
That’s an assumption belac. The people leaving are citizens. The people coming in are immigrants and they only are allowed to stay for 2 years and then they have to leave.
They are the lower working class. They do jobs that the that the Germans don’t want to do for themselves. Something like we have here except they are legally there. They do not put a strain on the Healthcare system because they don’t get free care. They are not citizens. I have said this already belac and I’m really getting tired of repeating myself.
March 6th, 2009 at 8:03 pmThat’s an assumption belac.
No, that’s why I posted the link to the study from late 1990’s that SHOWED what I had argued.
The immigrants were a net benefit to the German state in terms of revenue.
The only ones who were not were EAST GERMANS who rejoined and had to be reintegrated into larger German society.
Now, this may have changed in the years since… but I didn’t just assume that that was the case… I posted a study that found those very results and because of the reasoning and results of the study I argued that Germany is still probably receiving a NET benefit from the immigrant labor in terms of tax revenue…
That is why we read the research… it was a reasoned argument.
No one get’s free care in GERMANY. TAXES and Individual Contributions to the Health Fund pay for care. But immigrants pay taxes and at least some non-citizens pay into the health fund and ceratinly, some non-citizens are covered. That was covered in the NPR link I posted.
March 6th, 2009 at 8:13 pmSome citizens are choosing not to contribute and are NOT covered… a problem the German Government is facing… as they sometimes do get catastrophically ill and become a burden and financially ruined.
They are usually ‘high wage earners’ or ‘business owners’ and that was covered in the link I posted to the German daily…
March 6th, 2009 at 8:15 pmBecause you can’t expect me to take your supporting facts on faith… and because when we are then able to read the same thing and discuss… like when I pointed out that plenty of immigrants are coming and more than making up for the taxes lost by the exodus… it’s part of the discussion, and it’s a courtesy… if you bring it up, you should back it up.
I don’t expect you to do anything. Everything I have said can be backed up except my own opinions that have been formed by personal experience. Those things don’t need to be backed up.
I’ve learned a great deal in 60 years. I’ve lived through Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II and now Obama maybe. “If you live long enought you can’t help but learn something.” Not my words but I’m too tired to research who said it. It is what it is. We will talk again belac. I really enjoyed it. I enjoyed Trollspotter also. I hope she (?)he, I don’t really know who Trollspotter is.
March 6th, 2009 at 8:16 pmhttp://www.thelocal.de/national/20080430-11605.html
http://ideas.repec.org/p/iza/izadps/dp125.html
http://www.npr.org/ templates/ story/ story.php?storyId=91971406
March 6th, 2009 at 8:18 pmbelac Says:
Some citizens are choosing not to contribute and are NOT covered… a problem the German Government is facing… as they sometimes do get catastrophically ill and become a burden and financially ruined.
They are usually ‘high wage earners’ or ‘business owners’ and that was covered in the link I posted to the German daily…
The English are having the same problem, so is Sweden.
March 6th, 2009 at 8:18 pmThe English are having the same problem, so is Sweden.
and that’s why you shouldn’t be able to ‘gamble’ just ’cause you feel healthy today… your illness will effect all of us… shared risk, everyone’s in, everyone’s covered.
March 6th, 2009 at 8:20 pmHmm, not funded by taxes?
March 6th, 2009 at 8:23 pm
belac Says:
http://www.thelocal.de/national/20080430-11605.html
http://ideas.repec.org/p/iza/izadps/dp125.html
http://www.npr.org/ templates/ story/ story.php?storyId=91971406
I gave you the first one. I read the second and agree with it. I saw it firsthand and the third I’ll have to input by hand as it didn’t come up.
Thanks.
March 6th, 2009 at 8:24 pmbelac Says:
http://www.thelocal.de/national/20080430-11605.html
http://ideas.repec.org/p/iza/izadps/dp125.html
http://www.npr.org/ templates/ story/ story.php?storyId=91971406
The first one i gave you. The second one I read and agree with. i saw it first hand.
The third didn’t come up. I’ll input it manually.
March 6th, 2009 at 8:25 pmFrom the NPR story:
March 6th, 2009 at 8:26 pm
http://www.dw-world.de/ dw/ article/ 0,2144,1348580,00.html
Here’s the link I meant to post first, sorry.
and here’s the NPR link
March 6th, 2009 at 8:28 pmWell the NPR ink didn’t work again… just highlight the whole thing in the first one and then right click and copy it to your browser.
That works.
March 6th, 2009 at 8:29 pmbelac Says:
Hmm, not funded by taxes?
The health care system that took such good care of Sabina is not funded by government taxes. But it is compulsory. All German workers pay about 8 percent of their gross income to a nonprofit insurance company called a sickness fund. Their employers pay about the same amount. Workers can choose among 240 sickness funds.
Basing premiums on a percentage-of-salary means that the less people make, the less they have to pay. The more money they make, the more they pay. This principle is at the heart of the system. Germans call it “solidarity.” The idea is that everybody’s in it together, and nobody should be without health insurance.
You can hide taxes in may forms. Ir you want services you have to pay for them.
I’d like to see that happen here. People having to pay something for their services. That’s pretty much what we have now don’t we? You see the current system does have some hope if you look at haw to do it without the waste.
March 6th, 2009 at 8:30 pmif you look at haw to do it without the waste.
Without the insurance companies you mean…
March 6th, 2009 at 8:32 pmBasing premiums on a percentage-of-salary means that the less people make, the less they have to pay. The more money they make, the more they pay. This principle is at the heart of the system. Germans call it “solidarity.” The idea is that everybody’s in it together, and nobody should be without health insurance.
It sounds something like the plan in Mass.
March 6th, 2009 at 8:33 pmWho do you think are going to administer the new plan of Obama’s. The insurance companies belac. The will follow the system that is set up. They won’t be going anywhere.
March 6th, 2009 at 8:36 pmLook. It’s been a long day. We’ll talk again I’m sure.
Meanwhile I will read your stuff.
March 6th, 2009 at 8:37 pmIt sounds something like the plan in Mass.
Is that plan driving away young Massters?
And actually, it’s the reverse of the MA plan… in MA you are expected to find your own insurance, if you cannot there is a state provided fall back.
In Germany, you are expected to pay into the state health plan… if you make more than the equivalent of $72,000 a year or are a civil servant and would like to purchase private insurance you can ‘opt out’ of the state plan… that’s where the well to-do deadbeats come in.
I prefer the German method… and so do most Germans.
March 6th, 2009 at 8:37 pmThe Mass plan has a kitty to pay for insurance for those who can’t pay themselves. It that way it is similar..
See ya.
March 6th, 2009 at 8:40 pmhttp://www.howtogermany.com/pages/insurance.html
Again… it’s MA but in reverse… everyone pays in what they can afford… those who make more than most people can ‘opt out’ and buy private insurance.
But everyone, excluding those who opt out and then neglect to get private insurance, is covered.
In MA you are required to have insurance but the state will only pay for the poorest… so people still have to pay whatever the insurance companies charge unless they are poor enough to get state sponsored insurance…
That sets up an imbalance which leads to problems like you brought up in HI… those who maybe could afford private insurance but find it a stretch opt for state insurance which puts an added strain on your ‘kitty’ for the poor.
If we did it the German way, the state sponsored health plan would be the norm and rates would be based on your income… the rich could still purchase coverage over and above the state insurance but because we consolidated all those little insurance pools into one big one rates would go down, coverage would go up.
You follow?
March 6th, 2009 at 8:53 pmMa puts restrictions on what insurance companies can charge their members. It is regulated by the state. They are also required to contribute to the kitty that pays for the poor.
March 6th, 2009 at 8:56 pmIf we did it the German way, the state sponsored health plan would be the norm and rates would be based on your income… the rich could still purchase coverage over and above the state insurance but because we consolidated all those little insurance pools into one big one rates would go down, coverage would go up.
You follow?
Are we planning to go the German way? Which way is Obama going. I haven’t seen anything in writing as yet. What is he going to do.
Right now the system works for me. Like I said before and I’m really getting tired of repeating myself, nothing is perfect. Things could be done better and we could do without the waste. We are not in Germany and we won’t be getting their system here. It wouldn’t work here. Germany has 80 million people. We have 300 million people. I don’t think it can be scaled up and made to work here. Too many ego’s in the government.
March 6th, 2009 at 9:03 pmthanks for you. nice article.
March 11th, 2009 at 5:05 amestetik
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