NEW POLL: America Is Evenly Divided Between Progressives/Liberals And Conservatives/Libertarians
NEW POLL: America Is Evenly Divided Between Progressives/Liberals And Conservatives/Libertarians
Our guest bloggers are John Halpin and Ruy Teixeira, fellows at the Center for American Progress.
For years, traditional public opinion polling has broken down Americans’ political ideology into three distinct groupings: liberal, moderate, and conservative. Based on this simplified categorization, there has been remarkable stability in ideological orientation with roughly one-fifth of Americans identifying themselves as ‘liberal’ and about 4 in 10 classifying themselves as ‘moderate’ or ‘conservative’, respectively, according to Gallup polling from 1992 to 2008.
Two new studies (here and here) conducted by the Progressive Studies Program at the Center for American Progress break down the electorate on a new 5-point scale of political ideology that reflects the primary approaches people ascribe to today. Under this schematic, 34 percent of the country self-identifies as ‘conservative’, 29 percent as ‘moderate’, 15 percent as ‘liberal’, 16 percent as ‘progressive’, and 2 percent as ‘libertarian’.
After moderates are asked which approach they lean towards, the overall ideological breakdown of the country divides into fairly neat left and right groupings with 47 percent of Americans identifying as progressive or liberal and 48 percent as conservative or libertarian and the rest unsure.
A nation that is evenly split in its political identity is decidedly center-left in its policy orientation:
• By a margin of almost nine to one, Americans agree that “government investments in education, infrastructure, and science are necessary to ensure America’s long-term economic growth,” (79 percent agree, 12 percent neutral, 9 percent disagree).
• More than three in four Americans (76 percent) also agree with the president’s argument that “America’s economic future requires a transformation away from oil, gas, and coal to renewable energy sources such as wind and solar.”
• Nearly three in four Americans believe that “government regulations are necessary to keep businesses in check and protect workers and consumers,” (73 percent agree, 15 percent neutral, 12 percent disagree).
• Nearly two in three Americans (65 percent) agree that “the federal government should guarantee affordable health coverage for every American.”
Complementing this agenda are significant demographic shifts that favor progressives. Between 1988 and 2008, the share of minority voters in presidential elections has risen by 11 points, while the share of increasingly progressive white college graduate voters has risen by four points. But the share of white-working class voters, who have remained conservative in their orientation, has plummeted by 15 points.
How progressive are you? Take our interactive quiz.
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And four percent identify themselves as dumbass trolls.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:13 pm340/400… i am ‘extremely progressive’…
now if you’ll excuse me I have an appointment to gay marry a robot and abort babies to create carbon offsets…
or something.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:13 pmWhere’s the G.O.P.?
March 11th, 2009 at 12:14 pmYou know…
… The Group Of Phasists?
355/400 makes me EXTREMELY LIBERAL
and DAMN PROUD OF IT!
Proud to be everything the right wing hates
official card-carrying member of the ACLU & VVAW.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:16 pmThe wording of many of the questions in that quiz is quite leading, and hardly impartial.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:17 pmThis is like one of those libertarian quizzes. If you take it, chances are you’ll be listed as a libertarian.
My answers about how much government should control people’s lives were all answered with zeros or tens depending on the question.
Yet it said that I was Progressive. Maybe progressive is a broader term than I thought it was.
Can one be against government intervention into people’s lives and be called Progressive?
(I swear, if any of you go take these little political quizzes, they’ll most likely say that you are whatever they want.)
March 11th, 2009 at 12:17 pmDoes this help explain the dramatic rise in approval ratings of the present Congress – Democratically expressing compassion for the ordinary man?
March 11th, 2009 at 12:18 pmSomeone should show this to Limpballs, O’Liely, and Inshannity. How can they spin this? It seems the Repug Party has nothing left to stand for except racism, sexism and down right incompetence.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:19 pm319/400!
March 11th, 2009 at 12:19 pmI don’t think even this breakdown is correct, as some of us are social libertarian/liberal and economically conservative AND progressive. There is no one policy issue that doesn’t break down in several different ways, really. The two party system forces us to compromise even within our own individual value systems.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:20 pmThere’s one good takeaway from the study. Otherwise, it’s more than a bit discouraging, like finding out half your fellow citizens don’t believe in science.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:20 pmYes, actually. It seems that it’s the conservatives that want to intervene by preventing people from acting in ways they wish (same-sex marriage, access to contraceptives/abortions, etc.). Progressives tend to advocate equality of access & opportunity rather than prohibit behaviors.
But I agree, the wording of the questions is misleading or slanted in many cases.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:21 pmOf course the share of white working class voters have declined for the conservatives, because that’s what happens when you send their jobs overseas, don’t do anything to fix health care and create an environment which is anti-working man and pro-corporate in nature.
The Democratic party has become the party for the working class thanks to the Republicans being sell-outs for their corporate benefactors.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:23 pm352/400… isn’t that a ‘B’?
March 11th, 2009 at 12:24 pmIf “moderate” means you have a brain, then those folks are definitely in the liberal-progressive camp.
It’s great to see so many people come out against psychotic nut-jobs.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:24 pmYeah, that’s why I don’t call myself a conservative.
If I have to label myself, I’d say I was a liberal. But that’s not like the 20th century definition of liberal. I mean more like classical liberal, meaning that people should be liberated and free.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:27 pmI don’t mean for this to be a stupid question, but why exactly is it that “men” as a group fall below the mean on this quiz? I know there are a lot of men on this blog, do any of them have any insight as to why men, as a whole, lean more conservative? We take it for granted that guys are conservative, but why?
March 11th, 2009 at 12:28 pmI didn’t realize I am “extremely progressive” – but this survey says I am.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:31 pmWell, there’s an old saying “If they take away the 1st, it’s time to exercise the 2nd.”
March 11th, 2009 at 12:34 pmI don’t think anyone here will disagree with wanting people to be liberated and free, but that’s a pretty vague idea. Progressivism, in my understanding, is about reinstating the idea of the social contract. I think this is where progressives and libertarians part ways; progressives tend to hew to the social contract, while libertarians promote the ‘rugged individual’ as the ideal.
And like a poster above mentioned, one can have views on issues that may be in conflict with one’s overall socio-political bent.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:36 pmthe poll merely confirms the republican/conservative lies falsely denigrating what is liberalism and misleading on what is conservatism. If corporate media had given equal voice to liberals/progressives these past 30 years rather than heavily promoting the republican/conservative lies and misrepresentations, then the poll would have accurately reflected the truth that the nation is 70% liberal and barely conservative at all.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:38 pm323/400
Extemely progressive. But I do have one point of contention with the quiz. I think there is a big difference between a social conservative and a political conservative.
My basic philosophy is that Government has an obligation to create and atmosphere in which all of it’s citizens can prosper. PROMOTE the general welfare, not PROVIDE. I guess that makes me more progressive/liberal than most.
I also believe vehemently in civil liberties; what one does in the privacy of their own home is their business, and no one else.
However I could be considered a social conservative in some respects due to my tremendous distaste of most pop culture: hyper sexuality in shows geared for teenagers (I will not let my 4 year old daughter watch Hannah Montana and she doesn’t understand), uber commercialism, and just the general obsession with fads and trends.
That’s my 2 cents.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:39 pm347/400 for me, “extremely progressive”, which is odd because I see myself being a bit more on the moderate side of liberal.
It would be interesting to see members of Congress take this quiz. Might help some on the fence moderates realize that they don’t actually support the wingnuttery of this country.
Along those same lines, I see the Constitution of the United States falling into the “extremely progressive” category as well.
PEACE
March 11th, 2009 at 12:39 pmI was very progressive. I was a little surprised, as I thought I was more moderate. Well, as Popeye would say, I am what I am!
March 11th, 2009 at 12:40 pmAsk anyone this question:
I’d rather see children starving and cold out on the streets than to have to pay higher taxes.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:42 pm348.
Well, does that mean that I have to give up my Libertine card? (yes– libertine, not libertarian). Snort.
The questions are ’slanted’, but I think that is because they all are oft-heard phrasings of the issues presented. For the quiz to be more neutral, each question presented needs to be broken down into a dozen or so smaller questions that pinpoint details — many of them were too vague, and most people would have more nuanced answers to many of the questions (I know I would).
But, overall, for what it is it is o.k..
March 11th, 2009 at 12:44 pmYeah yeah, shut up Archie.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:45 pmLibertarians are anarchists who want the government to protect them from the anarchists.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:45 pmCan we please split this country up – Progressive/Liberals and Conservative/Libertarians don’t mix.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:46 pmI believe that is a plank in the Republican Party platform.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:47 pmUncle Ho Says:
355/400 makes me EXTREMELY LIBERAL
and DAMN PROUD OF IT!
——-
belac Says:
352/400… isn’t that a ‘B’?
——-
ectoendomezo Says:
363/400….Extremely Progressive
——–
spencers mom Says:
347/400 for me, “extremely progressive
——–
___________
Whoa… I only scored a 320. Does that make me a Republican? :( :( :(
March 11th, 2009 at 12:48 pm367 here – anyone want to buy a copy of my little red book?
March 11th, 2009 at 12:49 pmNo. If your score is lower than Bush’s IQ, you are a Republican.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:49 pmArcheeeee says:
I would not talk about lack of spines if I were you. The GOP in recent weeks have eagerly got on their knees to kiss Flush Limpdick’s butthole en mass.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:49 pmshoeless Says:
nellre Says:
I’d rather see children starving and cold out on the streets than to have to pay higher taxes.
I believe that is a plank in the Republican Party platform.
I’d rather see poor children starving and cold out on the streets than to have to pay higher taxes.
Fixed it. There’s the ‘plank’.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:50 pmJohn@32, I’ve been saying that for years. Let the Religious Right have Jesus Land (mostly the southern states) and we’ll take the rest. I wouldn’t mind better education, better environment and a greener community. While they can argue about global warming and God’s Will. Sounds A-OK to me.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:50 pmtombaker Says:
367 here – anyone want to buy a copy of my little red book?
Only if it comes with a tin foil hat and a book of communist ration cards.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:51 pmI don’t know where I read this, but I’m sure I’ve seen it posted before online – tho I don’t know if it was here or on another site:
“Most conservatives were once liberals until they got robbed or mugged. Most liberals were once conservatives until they lost their jobs”.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:52 pmThe political compass is a better measure. I think it’s still online.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/
March 11th, 2009 at 12:52 pmWOW….I just completed the quiz and scored 351 which makes me an extreme progressive….it figures…I’m Canadian…lol.
Yes we are extremely progressive up here but then again…we have Single payer health system, subsidised education (University), no banking problems, no mortgage problems, we have good unions, we make on average higher saleries….so I guess being real progressive isn’t so bad after all….
But I doubt your news media would ever tell you that we have it a lot better living in Canada then living in the US!!!!
Those progressives don’t know squat …..REALLY…CHECH OUT THE FORCLOSURE (power of sales in Canada)rate in Canada!!!
I hate to tell my friends down south….In actuality ….WE HAVE MORE FREEDOM BECUASE WE ARE NOT SLAVES TO CORPORATIONS!!!!
March 11th, 2009 at 12:52 pmso that’s 1 for CC, unless you’d like to get 2 and give 1 as a gift.
anyone else?
March 11th, 2009 at 12:53 pm377/400
I’m a lefty, all right!
March 11th, 2009 at 12:53 pmcitizen_pain Says:
However I could be considered a social conservative in some respects due to my tremendous distaste of most pop culture: hyper sexuality in shows geared for teenagers (I will not let my 4 year old daughter watch Hannah Montana and she doesn’t understand), uber commercialism, and just the general obsession with fads and trends.
That’s my 2 cents.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
__________
Yes, but that’s personal taste. It’s nothing to do with political conservatism, unless you want the FCC to ban Hannah Montana.
And if you want to get really meta, the hypercommercialism of pop culture could well be seen as a right-wing indoctrination of children with consumerist cultural norms through unregulated, mega-corporate mass media system. So your self-described “conservatism” is really just liberalism anyhow.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:53 pmSo Archie, now that you’re talking about having a spine, what IS your opinion on the Unitary Executive?
March 11th, 2009 at 12:53 pmArchie, you are a fool. Many people who claim to be conservatives respond as liberals to questions about individual issues.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:53 pmWell, post 40 shows that resident troll Archie B believes that this is an accurate and informative quiz. Thanks for the input.
Has anyone told this troll that Archie Bunker was a fictional character, intended entirely as a comedic spoof of the bigoted conservative type (and that the actor himself was the opposite of the character)? Just FYI.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:54 pmNOLIESPLEASE Says:
Oh… rub it in, will ya’? Why don’t you get some salt and lemon juice while your at it….. you sadistic progressive canadian you…. :)
March 11th, 2009 at 12:57 pm326/400… Woo hoo!!!
(Have to admit… I surprised myself. I didn’t think I’d score THAT high… but then, if I hadn’t, I would have been disappointed n myself…)
March 11th, 2009 at 12:57 pmFunny, we got it from the other news sources. How now brown cow?
March 11th, 2009 at 12:58 pm336/400
This survey is basically crap.
Example: “Less government versus big government?” What does “BIG government” mean?
A universal health care system would mean ‘big government’ would it not? But so too is a Defense Department that has a budget larger than the next ten largest foreign national defense departments combined.
These type of questions (and these type of surveys) don’t define the terms used, but insist on neatly defining the results.
March 11th, 2009 at 1:00 pmArchie B Says:
The GOP in recent weeks have eagerly got on their knees to kiss Flush Limpdick’s butthole en mass.
—————-
If you get your “news” from here, then yes, that would seem like the case. However, it’s not reality.
____________
An EMBARRASSINGLY LARGE PERCENTAGE of the GOOP in recent weeks have eagerly got on their knees to kiss Flush Limpdick’s butthole en mass.
There… that make ya feel better, Archie?
March 11th, 2009 at 1:00 pm283/400. Very progressive?
March 11th, 2009 at 1:00 pmtombaker Says:
well, there’s the wife, the kid, the cats, my pet goat love slave, the toaster, my telefunkin’ UB47,…..
Can I set up an account?……
March 11th, 2009 at 1:01 pmArchie B Says:
Many people who claim to be conservatives respond as liberals to questions about individual issues.
———-
I’ve never seen that to be the case.
_______
I have.
March 11th, 2009 at 1:01 pmArchie B Says:
You just proved my point because you get your “news” from here.
___________
Actually, I didn’t, but if it makes you feel better about yourself, pretend what ever you want.
I just Googled “Rush Limbaugh” + “Head of the GOP” and got 2,270,000 hits.
Sorry, Archie, but that song is playing all over the place.
You need to get out more.
March 11th, 2009 at 1:04 pmHere’s some other news we get from here:
“Local troll Archie B still refuses to answer the questions about what he thinks about the Unitary Executive”
March 11th, 2009 at 1:04 pmArchie B Says:
The GOP in recent weeks have eagerly got on their knees to kiss Flush Limpdick’s butthole en mass.
—————-
If you get your “news” from here, then yes, that would seem like the case. However, it’s not reality
No, you’re completely right.
This week was suck Rush’s toes week. Last week was lick the taint week. etc.
The “Mass kissing of the bun g hole” week was like three or four weeks ago.
Geez, people… keep up…..
March 11th, 2009 at 1:04 pm358/400 ……and PROUD OF IT!
March 11th, 2009 at 1:05 pmArchie B falsy claims someone else has many names. It’s time to sent this pos packing. We will then see what his new name might be.
March 11th, 2009 at 1:06 pmThe fact that you are very poorly informed is hardly news.
Several conservative commentators claim America is ideologically a “center-right” country, citing as evidence general election exit polls showing that 22 percent of respondents identify themselves as “liberal,” 44 percent as “moderate” and 34 percent as “conservative.” But political scientists dispute the reliability of voters’ identification with political ideologies, and other polling has found that a strong majority favored the more progressive position on a number of issues.
http://mediamatters.org/items/200811100013
March 11th, 2009 at 1:06 pmBTW, I go to a lot of different websites to cross-reference news items, just to make sure I’m getting a broader picture. I even pinch my nose and go to restate and lgf from time to time, even though I usually feel the need to shower immediately afterwards.
I read BOTH of Rush’s books back in the first half of this decade, just to make sure I knew what he was talking about. He had a good point to make about every ten pages or so, which meant wading thru 9 pages of tripe to get to the next one.
What a slog…
March 11th, 2009 at 1:07 pmI noticed the quiz didn’t ask anything about the death penalty, prayer in schools, or gun control. And some of the questions really begged for more definition (what in the world is “big government”, anyway?).
I still scored 293/400, making me “very progressive”. That’s probably about right.
March 11th, 2009 at 1:10 pmArchie – they DO kiss his butt (no matter where your news comes from), and they’re going to keep kissing it, because they’re afraid they’ll never win an election again without him and the Dittohead Army.
March 11th, 2009 at 1:12 pmSandoz76 Says: @18
We take it for granted that guys are conservative, but why?
Only a guess, but I think many males equate “liberalism” with being effeminate. Just listen to the tough guy braggadocio of the wingnut right on pretty much any issue, especially the way they attack males who proudly proclaim themselves to be “liberal”. Consequently, I believe there are many too chickensh*t to admit they’re liberal, choosing to hide behind the faux macho image of a “conservative” – meaning I don’t believe the numbers are an accurate reflection.
330/400 was my score. Like many, it’s higher than I thought it would be.
March 11th, 2009 at 1:12 pmHey CageyCretin, Im not rubbing it in…I want the American People to see what life could be like if your government made some changes. I have a lot of family in the US and for the life of me…I don’t understand why they wont fight for what you people deserve!!!!
THE ONLY MAJOR DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CANADA AND THE US IS ….
WE Canadians have laws to make life a better place without the hand of corporations….as where …
The United States have laws to make Corporations wealthy while it’s citizens fight for the scrapes left over by Corporations!!! example…Why would the US government implement a law that RESTRICTS the government from negotiating better prices from big pharma?????
WHAT GOV DOES THAT ???? THE U.S. GOVERNMENT THATS WHO!!!
Do you see the difference. I’m with you people but you have to take it to the streets and DEMAND that people are put first before corporations…period!!!
March 11th, 2009 at 1:12 pmbtw – do you have your permission slip today, Archie??
wouldn’t want your owner to get upset, now would we?
March 11th, 2009 at 1:13 pmI am an anti-repugnican! YEAH! Viva la 358!
March 11th, 2009 at 1:13 pm308/400 — higher than I thought too, but who cares…at least we “extremely progressive” people are consistent in our worldview…
March 11th, 2009 at 1:13 pmTook the political compass, results:
economic left/right -9.12
social libertarian/authoritarian -5.79
Another Ghandi
March 11th, 2009 at 1:14 pmIt’s labels like this that I go out of my way to avoid. No one benefits from statments of this sort, even if they agree with the premise.
It’s time we stop calling ‘the other side’ anything we please. I try to listen to whomever seems to be interested in a substantive discussion, even if I am opposed to their position. We may find that we share common ground, if not ideology.
March 11th, 2009 at 1:16 pmNOLIESPLEASE says:
Holy crap! I…agree with nolies?
March 11th, 2009 at 1:17 pmWell, I scored a 350, which I guess makes me an UberprogressiveIslamofascistcommietreehugger.
Or something.
:-)
March 11th, 2009 at 1:20 pmIf you have ever spent any amount of time talking to a libertarian, they label themselves.
March 11th, 2009 at 1:26 pm361/400 guess I’m just a socialist
March 11th, 2009 at 1:26 pmSome do, some do not. There are the militia-live-on-compounds types and there are suburban college professors advocating exactly what Norquist desired, to drown the federal government in a bathtub (one has dinner at my grandparents’ house regularly. suffering him is quite the chore). The latter are much more subtle in their rhetoric in my experience.
March 11th, 2009 at 1:31 pmYou are just a gnat AB, something to swat because your sole reason for existing is to be an anoyance.
March 11th, 2009 at 1:31 pmshoeless Says:
If you have ever spent any amount of time talking to a libertarian, they label themselves.
_____________
They can’t wait to tell you…
March 11th, 2009 at 1:32 pm347 – no surprise
I think too many males are conservative because of the hierarchy of authority factor inherent in that world view. They do not want to be “lowered” to an “equal” status.
March 11th, 2009 at 1:32 pmNo Archie, I wouldn’t want you to change your opinion because of evidence obtained from extensive research by social scientists. You stick with your original, well reasoned insight.
March 11th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Archie-B-Gone.
March 11th, 2009 at 1:35 pmMy goal, whenever arguing with a libertarian, is just to expose their heinous ideology for what it really is. The militia types are just being honest. You have to get the subtle ones pissed off before they will admit it.
March 11th, 2009 at 1:39 pmArchie B Says:
I’ve never seen that…
Archie has never seen a conservative respond to issues in a liberal fashion, so he doesn’t think that exists.
Archie has never seen empathy, so he doesn’t think that exists.
Archie has never seen compassion, so he doesn’t think that exists.
Archie has never seen his own flatulance,so he doesn’t think that exists, either.
March 11th, 2009 at 1:45 pmTrue enough. However, my comments were addressing a broader issue than libertarian vs. progressive.
Maybe it’s time to reframe the questions: instead of are you for or against, say, the death penalty, perhaps the question should be should we, as a rational modern society be using a form of punishment that is ineffective at deterring the crimes it was put in place to deter?
Call me a softy or whatever you wish, but I believe we need to take our cues from the people and ideas that made progressives a force in the past, think MLK (and maybe Jim Wallis today), instead of fighting fire with fire.
March 11th, 2009 at 1:48 pmHow many of those “conservatives” are just racists?
March 11th, 2009 at 1:52 pmI got 377, so yeah, pretty left. but I agree some of the questions weren’t worded as precisely as I would’ve liked. I am glad to see in general a more nuanced approach to people’s political affiliations, instead of the usual polarization.
All of the grey areas that overlap are the productive areas to be discussed in this democracy.
March 11th, 2009 at 1:54 pmThen what is our criminal justice system for but to implement punishment as deterrent?
Maybe I don’t see the disconnect.
March 11th, 2009 at 1:54 pmIt’s really a question of adherence to Logical Positivism.
At both ends of the spectrum, you will find those who insist there is an absolute cure to what ails mankind, and that by exercising their ideology, they will necessarily arrive at that cure.
That’s why accusations of naivete and lack of understanding are always hurled from both sides.
Logical Positivism works pretty well for scientists and mathematicians, but can’t succeed in humanistic areas of endeavor where belief and emotion rule supreme.
March 11th, 2009 at 1:55 pmAgreed, Tom. Would you say then that people can be persuaded under the vague term Pragmatism? That one was throw around a lot for President Obama, and still is. Does that term speak to people on all sides?
March 11th, 2009 at 1:58 pmObviously many of them are racist, which brings up a point about the “difference” between militia-type libertarians, and “subtle” libertarians (or Republicans, as I like to call them).
A militia type might just say that we need to reinstitute Jim Crow in order to put the n*gg*rs in their place. A more subtle libertarian would speak in lofty terms about “freedon of the marketplace”, which is merely code for white’s-only lunch counters. However, if you get the latter type mad enough, he will admit that the wants Civil Rights laws repealed. So, in practice, their is no difference in their goals.
March 11th, 2009 at 1:59 pmWell said, but I’m not sure if I agree with your conclusion. I believe it can have its place, if all parties are aware of their own goals.
i.e. Both progressives/liberals and conservatives/whatever are against killing babies, no? Thus the arguement must be framed not around ideology but in finding what practices best reduce the rates of abortion.
Sorry to pick such hot-button issues, but they most easily illuminate the points I am trying to make (clumsily as they may be).
March 11th, 2009 at 2:00 pmBut all sides think their side is the most pragmatic, and results are often distorted/interpreted through whatever ideological lens you have… What would it take (if there is anything) for people to believe in a non-ideological pragmatism, and to know it when they see it?
March 11th, 2009 at 2:01 pmMy framing question on the death penalty: Should our society kill an individual who broke our rule against killing a person who breaks an individual’s rule?
March 11th, 2009 at 2:02 pmGod I hope so.
March 11th, 2009 at 2:02 pm340/400
Extremely progressive, and damn proud of it. :-)
March 11th, 2009 at 2:07 pmRealness – When you’ve got the kinds of social conditions we now have, pragmatism is very powerful – that’s why Obama’s #’s are staying high in light of deteriorating news.
The Right tried to couch personal morality in pragmatic terms, suggesting that a more biblically moral population would produce a better social effect. That does make some practical sense, to the extent that not being drunk and killing people all day does lend to a more orderly society.
In the end, I guess it depends on whose pragmatism, and under what circumstances.
Obama has struck on the right chord a few times, by reminding people that we should not make “the perfect the enemy of the good”, and talking about “not a perfect union, but a more perfect union” (where I take him to mean not “perfect-er, or perfect-est”, but agreeably better than before) He is effectively calling out Logical Positivism, and trying to circumscribe its negative potential.
March 11th, 2009 at 2:12 pmA lot of conservatives only think they are conservative because Reichwing Hate Radio has told them that being a Liberal is bad…
…like being open minded, fair, equal rights for everyone, protecting the environment, healthcare for everyone, consuming less, helping more, joining together to help all Americans get ahead…
….you know those commie values.
March 11th, 2009 at 2:16 pmThis doesn’t measure how conservatives now identify themselves with party affiliation. There’s lots of conservatives who voted for Obama.
http://www.pufferfishblog.com/
March 11th, 2009 at 2:16 pmwags – I don’t think we disagree – you sound willing to strive for a utilitarian focus on issues, which is what I’m saying the logical positivism misses when applied to these humanistic matters. The LP side says we can solve human problems like we can solve math problems, when in fact we can’t. A utilitarian (pragmatic) approach ackowledges we can’t solve human problems like math problems, and looks to what works best, most of the time.
March 11th, 2009 at 2:19 pmWell, it really does depend on whose pragmatism we are talking about, and that really comes from the goals set up- which in turn come from a large ideological foundation. We can see that in a great deal of social policy changes that the President has enacted already.
but i do agree, especially in times of stress, people want effectiveness and not ideology, and that’s been born out. It’s also interesting that in times of economic stress that the American electorate tends toward Democratic.
Pragmatism in the U.S. appears to be the shifty moderate zone- moving forward (progress) but in a very cautious incrementalism when it comes to social change, and finding a workable balance of citizen/business/government rights. and i guess that changes with the times. the U.S. is still relatively young…
March 11th, 2009 at 2:21 pmI don’t think we disagree either, but I do want to make one last point before I have to get back to work.
Everyone, whether they admit it or not, cannot be entirely utilitarian in philosophy, and that is not what I am advocating. What I am advocating is that all sides acknowledge the moral/etical/philisophical/ideological positions of the opposing sides, and then attack the problems from a utilitarian standpoint.
If we apply only moral/etical/philisophical/ideological solutions to human problems, we will never be able to reconcile any of our differences, and the same problems will continue to arise.
March 11th, 2009 at 2:25 pmI hold out hope for a leftward correction, after living through 3+ decades of rightward creep.
Dismantling the mythology that has sustained that rightward creep is step 1, and I’m satisfied some progress is being made in that direction. 2 years ago I had one foot out the door, convinced our great experiment was dead.
March 11th, 2009 at 2:27 pmNOLIESPLEASE Says:
Oh… that distant comment to you was ALL in good fun. Thanks from myself for your participation here. I appreciate your insight.
March 11th, 2009 at 2:36 pmI don’t think anyone who considers themselves to be a true conservative could ever vote for any democrat.
March 11th, 2009 at 2:39 pmEveryone, whether they admit it or not, cannot be entirely utilitarian in philosophy, and that is not what I am advocating. What I am advocating is that all sides acknowledge the moral/etical/philisophical/ideological positions of the opposing sides, and then attack the problems from a utilitarian standpoint.
I completely agree! Unfortunately more complicated: some ideology by its definition will not let itself by assessed in a utilitarian way, or will assess other ideologies in that way. I’m thinking of course of fundamentalist sides of religion. So how to attack them and their ensuing problems?
March 11th, 2009 at 2:39 pm“Retribution” or “revenge” is really what most people are advocating as the purpose of the death penalty when they say “punishment”. To me, this gets to the hypocrisy of the death penalty because we, as a society, are taking revenge by killing those people who often killed as an act of revenge.
March 11th, 2009 at 2:40 pmAnd Tom, I’m with you. The frustration of the rightward creep is awful (and unfair considering I didn’t live at a time of high-profile leftward movement), but some policy decisions being made now I believe will have some real long-term effects on our society, and some generational change in thinking (esp. regarding more social change- gay marriage, etc.) looks good too!
March 11th, 2009 at 2:41 pmAn excellent question, and one that must be tackled by better political thinkers than a young architect like myself.
That being said, there will always be outliers who will not be happy in any society; such is the nature of humans.
March 11th, 2009 at 2:48 pmDr. Hussein Matt Says:
As PLC stated, the correct framing of the question would be is: Should a “civil” society put to death an individual who broke the law? Sadly, this is not a black and white question….but, there rarely is one.
There are other ways to phrase the question, I think. Such as, “Does a society have the right to execute its citizens?”
That could be qualified with “..for breaking the societies’ laws?”
Another question might be more constitutional, such as, “Are executions of criminals in line with the American concept of justice (e.g. “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness)?”
From another angle, one could ask, “Are executions of criminals moral?” Though this really starts to engage theology, as anyone with strongly held religious beliefs is going to have such an answer biased based upon their understanding of the dogma that they purport to follow.
But aren’t ALL criminal justice systems intended to punish (and by extention deter) crime? The measure is the quality of deterrent, with that being the case (though one COULD argue that a justice system should aim to reform… but that’s a whole other hornet’s nest). And considering the crime rate, and even more so, the rate of return offenders, it appears that the American justice system is not a strong deterrent — even where it allows the death penalty. If the system is ineffective, it would be wisest to take a very close look at the system to determine why and where it is malfunctioning — which probably lay in the inefficiency of the courts, and most likely laws themselves, but such an examination would not appease any one set of ideologies, and thus it is a distasteful idea to a great number of people — they can’t just stand by ideology.
Well, enough of my blather.
Later… :)
March 11th, 2009 at 2:48 pm378.5/400…I guess I should have my marriage with a box turtle right now…Whoo hoo!
March 11th, 2009 at 2:48 pmCageyCretin, where the system fails in its deterrent goals is the recognition that criminals often (and for career criminals, usually) have a very different belief and value system than law-abiding citizens. When we try to apply mechanisms of deterrence based on society’s values to criminal’s behavior, based on their values, failure is almost guaranteed. For example, many criminals do not value their own lives any more than they do any potential or actual victim. Thus, death penalty is meaningless to them.
March 11th, 2009 at 2:58 pmThe problem with a social contract is that it’s not a contract. Contracts are entered voluntarily (usually). I didn’t sign any piece of paper saying that I agreed to be ruled by the current people in government.
But are those the only two choices? Are there other ways to ensure that children don’t starve on the street besides extortion and coercion?
March 11th, 2009 at 3:21 pmExactly. And both of these welfare programs lead to tyranny.
March 11th, 2009 at 3:23 pmIt has never been a literal contract. You live in society and therefore benefit from its services, opportunities and safeties. The government, acting as an agent of the society (ideally) creates the safety (military, regulations, etc.) and services (education, transit, etc) in order for said opportunities to arise. You therefore tacitly agree to the contract by being part of society.
The contract isn’t a static document, it is being rewritten all the time, constantly in flux. It is an imperfect manifestation of what most people in a society can agree upon.
If you don’t like the contract, you have 2 options. Try to change it to more resemble what you want it to look like, or leave society, forfeiting both its benefits and ills.
March 11th, 2009 at 3:33 pmUniversal health care leads to tyranny? WTF? Try to take away universal health care from the people in Canada, Britian, France, Germany, Scandinavia, and see what happens.
You’ve got an ass backward idea of tyranny. Those people don’t have universal health care because the government forces them to accept it. They have universal health care because they force their government to provide it.
March 11th, 2009 at 3:36 pm332/400
My personal views are on the fence on immigration (5), abortion (7), sex & violence in popular culture (5), government spending being wasteful & inefficient (this is a view cultivated thanks to bloated defense spending and contracting throughout our government thanks to conservative rule, not a knock on progressives).
I liked citizen_pain’s take on the trends/fads obsession. I feel it’s splattered on by the same corporations that conservatives defend in the name of free markets, then turn around and blame liberals for the bad message.
Keep in mind, I may have personally reserved opinions on issues like abortion & immigration (business exploitation, not cultural), but I like to argue what’s best for society as a whole. Immigration brings cultural excitement & new languages & new children to educate, any my abortion reservation stems from my thinking that people have a responsibility to use contraceptives before it gets to that point. I always argue that abortions should be kept safe, legal & insured, and no woman should be made to feel worthless for having one.
March 11th, 2009 at 4:18 pm271/400.
Am I going to have to go to some sort of Conservative-conversion intervention?
I’ve always leaned heavily left, but more moderate on some issues recently.
Probably because I own a business.
Forgive me?
Heh.
March 11th, 2009 at 4:23 pmDRxJ Says:
271/400.
Forgive me?
Heh.
March 11th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
____________
Hmmm looks like we’ve got an Ayn Rand in our midst…
March 11th, 2009 at 4:35 pmThis is just one survey, DRxJ, perhaps the wording isn’t great. Progressives know that taxes for small businesses must be kept as low as possible.
Anyone who’s conservative shouldn’t necessarily be faulted as long as they can admit that their leadership has gone by the wayside of reality.
You’re in good shape.
March 11th, 2009 at 4:36 pmI responded similarly, as these questions are far too complex to be answered in an either/or fashion.
March 11th, 2009 at 4:41 pmGood call on Rand, toasterhead.
March 11th, 2009 at 4:48 pmI just love being educated, and enjoyed learning about her (never heard of her before).
For the most part, spot on, except the belief that she felt homosexuality was “disgusting”, but she did denounce the government laws regarding said subject.
You guys are going to hate me!!!
86/400-how do you like that?
I agree some of the questions could have gone either way. My belief is the government should almost completely stay out of our lives, one the other hand the government should help those who can’t help themselves “people who can’t work” seniors, mentally ill, and handy capable.
Immigration: WE NEED A WALL!! I do want immigration but I want it to be legal, I want to know who is coming and going PERIOD.
Abortion: should be your personal choice, but if you want it you pay for it.
Illegal drugs: As someone who wants the government out of all our lives, what you do with your body it’s your business, but if you f-up your life don’t come trying to me.
Military: I think if another country asks for our help, we should help. Otherwise we should stay out of everyone’s business. Put the money to better use here in the states”lower taxes for everyone who PAYS”.
Ok everyone let me have it!! -There is no reason to call anyone names, it lowers your IQ.
March 11th, 2009 at 5:02 pmI’m wondering how many of our friends would subscribe to Libertarian Socialism as an alternative to our current system, or would that be too hippie-fied?
March 11th, 2009 at 5:08 pmHmmm. I’ve called myself a “Libertarian Socialist” because I’m libertarian when it comes to civil liberties, but socialist where the “market” is concerned. Can’t say I’m LS according to that description in wikipedia. I find it odd that I find myself defending the state as much as I do lately.
March 11th, 2009 at 5:24 pmLibertarians, another name for RepubliCon stooge!
March 11th, 2009 at 6:31 pmThere is no reason to call anyone names, it lowers your IQ.
March 11th, 2009 at 7:15 pm—
No it doesn’t.
I scored a 346. I’m not exactly shocked. XoD
March 11th, 2009 at 10:38 pmArchie B Says:
Most liberals do claim they are “moderates” or “centrists” until they take one of these little tests. Just shows how much they don’t know or are too ashamed to admit about themselves.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You are distressingly stupid. Most conservatives are so stupid they say the most ignorant things imaginable. Like your post right here. What motivates you to continually show just how astonishingly stupid you are? ARe you PROUD to be stupid? Are you just retarded? Do you think you are clever? You must realize you are stupid and pathetic. Nobody as bone ignorant as you could really BELIEVE you were anything but stupid and pathetic could you? Short of a brain transplant you are going to spend the rest of your LIFE stupid and pathetic. Its time to just come to grips with that simple FACT.
March 12th, 2009 at 1:11 am#45 Archie B Says:
If you get your “news” from here, then yes, that would seem like the case. However, it’s not reality.
________
Hey Arch–you’re right they didn’t get on their knees to kiss Rush’s butthole, they got on their knees to suck his Viagra enhanced little D!*k.
Dontcha Know!
March 12th, 2009 at 5:11 pm# 105 Shoeless
I would like to add to it with the fact that most of them want the benefits of society without pitching in what it takes to get those benefits.
March 12th, 2009 at 5:20 pmThe self identified chart makes it look like about 1/3 conservative, 1/3 progressive and 1/3 moderate.
The conservatives and progressives are probably convicted about their views; I imagine the moderates swing based on how the current leadership is doing or based on their assessment the country has moved either too far right, or too far left.
March 25th, 2009 at 11:52 amwags. how do you believe Libertarian Socialism could work and who decides which institutions are coercive?
March 25th, 2009 at 11:59 am