Danner: Revealing The Truth About Torture Is ‘Debilitated…By The Practices Of The American Press’
Danner: Revealing The Truth About Torture Is ‘Debilitated…By The Practices Of The American Press’
On Sunday, journalist Mark Danner revealed a previously secret International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) report, which concluded that the Bush administration’s treatment of alleged al-Qaeda captives “‘constituted torture,’ a finding that strongly implied that CIA interrogation methods violated international law.”
As The Atlantic’s Andrew Sullivan noted yesterday, when the Washington Post wrote up the report, they “put the word torture in quotation marks.” Appearing on CSPAN’s Washington Journal this morning, Danner took the press to task for engaging in a “semantic debate” over whether the U.S. committed torture under the Bush administration.
“One can continue to talk about torture is in the eye of the beholder, etc etc, but frankly, nobody of any legal reputation believes that,” said Danner. Later in the interview, he added that he was “frustrated by the practices of the press” that are “interfering with a clear debate”:
DANNER: I think the definitional question is extremely important, and as I mentioned a moment ago, I think it’s extremely important to get by it already. We’re debilitated in that by some degree by the practices of the American press, frankly, which is that as long as the president or people in power continue to cling to a definition that they assert is the truth — as President Bush did when it came to torture, he said repeatedly the United States does not torture — the press feels obliged to report that and consider the matter as a question of debate.
Watch it:
Indeed, as Glenn Greenwald wrote in November, despite the ample mountain of evidence that the Bush administration authorized torture, the media “mimicked the Orwellian methods adopted by the administration to speak about and obfuscate these matters.” In a New York Times op-ed on Sunday, Danner wrote that the ICRC report now means “we can say with certainty” that “the United States tortured prisoners”:
What we can say with certainty, in the wake of the Red Cross report, is that the United States tortured prisoners and that the Bush administration, including the president himself, explicitly and aggressively denied that fact.
But despite the evidence of this certainty, traditional media outlets still dance around using the word torture. Andrew Sullivan calls this the “the cowardice of the MSM.” Danner calls it “ridiculous” and “a fallacy.”
Transcript:
DANNER: That definition is extremely important coming from the International Committee of Red Cross. One can continue to talk about torture is in the eye of the beholder, etc etc, but frankly, nobody of any legal reputation believes that. And this is a view put out by the last administration, there’s quite an extensive record of it, of the strategy of putting this out. And it would be quite salutary if the United States wants to actually get to the point where it can discuss these things sensibly and investigate them effectively, and decide whether the decisions that were made by the Bush administration after the attacks of 9-11 made sense for national security. It would make sense if we could get by this semantic debate, which frankly has become somewhat ridiculous, and actually talk about what is done. Because the Administration clearly believed they had to do these things to protect national security. Now one can debate whether it was necessary, what information was derived, whether it indeed protected the country or not, but one cannot debate at this point whether or not these things constituted torture and cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment under international law because they plainly did.
[...]
DANNER: I think the definitional question is extremely important, and as I mentioned a moment ago, I think it’s extremely important to get by it already. We’re debilitated in that by some degree by the practices of the American press, frankly, which is that as long as the president or people in power continue to cling to a definition that they assert is the truth — as President Bush did when it came to torture, he said repeatedly the United States does not torture — the press feels obliged to report that and consider the matter as a question of debate. The fact is thought that the current administration does not hold to that view; that its Attornery General, Eric Holder, in his confirmation hearing said bluntly, Waterboarding is torture; and the government of the country no longer disputes that these activities were torture. … So the idea that this is something that’s disputable and who knows, and maybe we can ask someone else’s opinion and debate this — it’s just not true, it’s a fallacy. And I’ve become somewhat frustrated by the practices of the press. And this isn’t to cast doubt on the bona fides or skills of individual reporters; it’s really a matter of practice, that you need to present both sides. But I think at this point this is interfering with a clear debate.
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March 17th, 2009 at 5:15 pmOne can only hope that history records the mainstream media as being as complicit in the launching of an illegal Iraq “war” (occupation) as the criminal Bush administration was.
They can never forget their part in this fiasco, and it will be our duty, as patriotic Americans, to ensure that.
March 17th, 2009 at 5:16 pmChickenshit doesn’t begin to describe the cowardice of the MSM. They’re too busy CYA or promoting themselves or the spin of their handlers/owners.
March 17th, 2009 at 5:16 pmThe real problem is that so many conservatives everywhere, believe it is good to torture because the “bad guys” really want to hurt us. So, daddy bush and cheney must be allowed to be worse than the bad guys. Conservatives are like the kids that back the bully so they aren’t the ones being picked on.
March 17th, 2009 at 5:16 pmMaybe the MSM should give some thought to its behavior on this issue; and, realize that maybe this is one reason why newspapers are failing because they cannot be trusted any more to actually provide the newspaper reader with news and the truth of the news. I canceled my subscription to The Washington Post July 2004 because I could no longer count on it for important news. They just became stenographers with a large group of conservative commentators; e.g., Will, Krauthammer, and the worst because of his editor position Fred Hiatt.
March 17th, 2009 at 5:19 pmYou know what the real problem is?
People around the world, ordinary citizens living on their countries, will not think The George Bush administration tortured the inmates at GITMO. They will think the Americans tortured inmates at GITMO.
If the American soldiers tortured one of their relatives a few years ago, they will not stop hating those soldiers just because, somewhere across the world from them, President Obama replaced President Bush.
THAT is the true Bush legacy.
March 17th, 2009 at 5:21 pmOne can continue to talk about torture is in the eye of the beholder, etc etc, but frankly, nobody of any legal reputation believes that,” said Danner
– - I urge all members of BushCo to travel abroad as soon as possible. You can pack light, people.
March 17th, 2009 at 5:22 pm——————————————————————————–
Have Universities been allowing their Business faculties to teach in their Journalism schools?
What other two areas of American professional practice have accomplished such monumental collective failure rates???
Think how thoroughly screwed we’d be if Engineers and Surgeons were as “good” at their jobs as Corporate and Editorial Boards are!
(sorry – repost from Fratto thread. it was supposed to be here)
March 17th, 2009 at 5:24 pmLet’s how what is said by the Media, Law Makers and American citizens when the same action of torture is done to Americans and their families. Yes we’ll see Americans kidnapped/tortured/raped/murdered all on Foreign land using the Bush Policy. What goes around comes around 7 times worse.
March 17th, 2009 at 5:26 pmIs this guy, Danner, and the above bloggers talking about OUR media? Our left-wing, drive-by, liberal media? Surely, that can’t be!?! Why, they’re all in the bag for Obama and the Socialist Movement. They wouldn’t spin the news in favor of the Reich, would they? Would they?(asked plaintively)
March 17th, 2009 at 5:26 pmThere was a time when the Washington Post was respected for its integrity, no more. We have few papers that can afford to be objective, they owe homage to the people who buy ads not the public.
March 17th, 2009 at 5:27 pm.
The success of a free society can be measured by the information freely distributed to the People. When a society is not given frank and honest information, are they truly free?
When the president proclaims: “We do not torture!”
… and the truth comes out that indeed, he ordered and authorized a torture program, where is the media highlighting his hypocrisy?
Instead, the media has become more subservient to antithetical ideals against American Principles, more than ever.
When the UN finds Bush/Cheney culpable of WAR CRIMES, will the US media still proclaim Bush/Cheney innocent? I fear so.
Once upon a time, journalism was revered for it’s honest, hard hitting and factual reporting…
… R.I.P. Journalism.
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March 17th, 2009 at 5:27 pmDo not kid yourselves, torture happens, it can be called rendition, and it has been done under all Presidents and Leaders of all countries. Amazing when everyone thought only 3rd World countries tortured. Would have been nice if bush had fessed up instead of telling a twelve year old girl, “we don’t torture.” Lying, jerk.
March 17th, 2009 at 5:29 pmWhy are we still arguing semantics when Bush himself admitted that he knew about torture, that he supported torture and that he authorized the use of torture?
Was that bastid arrested in Canada today? Didn’t think so…
PEACE
March 17th, 2009 at 5:29 pmI continue to be appalled that Bush and cronies tortured in our names.
March 17th, 2009 at 5:30 pm.
Freedom of the press…
… My @ss.
More like free-dumb!
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March 17th, 2009 at 5:30 pmWhat a crap load of spin only the kool aid drinkers could tolerate.
Shouldn’t it be:
Because of honest truth seeking patriots, the shock and horror of torture, torture in our name has been exposed.
March 17th, 2009 at 5:31 pmNice writeup. and this is how this “can happen here.”
March 17th, 2009 at 5:31 pmlarkohio – how many times do we hear, “but no more 9/11’s happened under our watch.” What about the first one after they had a MEMO telling them it was about to happen.
March 17th, 2009 at 5:32 pmI sent an email to ‘John king / State of the Union’ to let him know his show should drop their ’speak no evil’ of the former administration position, if they want to talk about reality based events.
Well, i paraphrase…
Whoever first said “leave Bush and Cheney Alone!! Waa, Waa, waa” is on to something – this former administration protectionism is really hurting the national healing process, and it’s for who’s benefit again?! Really, do you and i benefit at all from this circus? On the contrary it cuts through the fibre of journalism – the lifeblood of a sucsessful democracy.
March 17th, 2009 at 5:32 pmThe reputation of the USA has been sullied beyond recovery. Various media were complicit, even cheerleading the lawbreaking. The USA tortures, invades countries on false premises, sells toxic investments, lies and obfuscates, breaks long standing treaties. The media is only interested in finding more suckers and selling them more crapola of one kind or another.
March 17th, 2009 at 5:44 pmMitch McConnell on CNN with Wolf Blitzer just a few minutes ago: The vast majority of Americans don’t want the Guantanamo Bay prisoners/terrorists on American soil. He didn’t say why or quote any polls or sources, as usual. A little more fear-mongering , please. Is he afraid they will escape and burn/pillage and/or rape our country, women or children? I’m vewwy afwaid.
March 17th, 2009 at 5:44 pmtexaslady,
O.K. I have to take exception with something you said.
When you said, “has been done under all Presidents and Leaders of all countries,” then pretell, who did John Quincy Adams torture? Or, William Henry Harrison?
Or more so, what makes it acceptable that “it has been done under all Presidents and Leaders of all countries”?
Then does this leave wiggle room for Obama to engage in and order torture? Because after all, “… it has been done under all Presidents and Leaders of all countries.” YES?
I’m just trying to pick your brain here. More symantec than anything.
March 17th, 2009 at 5:46 pmThe Corporate Media Whores don’t want to upset their masters, now do they.
FreePress my butt….
…they have been bought and paid for long ago and it wasn’t free either.
March 17th, 2009 at 5:51 pm.
OT sort of…
Kucinich requests investigation into ‘executive assassination ring’
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Kucinich_requests_investigation_into_executive_assassination_0316.html
… Of course the MSM is covering this, YES?
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March 17th, 2009 at 5:52 pmThis is what happens when media ownership rules are eviscerated. The press is no longer beholden to the public; it has become the voice of its corporate ownership. And they’d like less democracy and more corporatocracy, please.
March 17th, 2009 at 5:52 pmI think I know how to solve the debt problem:
Send el Chimperor on a world tour inside a ‘ducking cage’ where, instead of throwing balls at the target, they throw shoes at $5 a pop…
We’d be loaning China money inside 6 mos…
March 17th, 2009 at 5:53 pmTo me, the worst torture is knowing these people are still out there with small chance it will change any time soon. They still have the money, still have the deranged mentality and still have a large portion of the public podium.
Torture is wondering when they will strike again. A handful of terrorists versus the Bush crowd is like comparing a dispeptic chihuahua with a T Rex.
March 17th, 2009 at 5:56 pmNow that bush is out of office, the single largest threat to the progressive agenda is the traditional press. Between the false “balance” reporting, that is giving weight to the banal and frivolous opposition to truth, and the lazy myopic reporting of garbage quotes from the noise machine, the press has enabled sinister right wing forces to seize and control the “message” in what used to be news outlets.
March 17th, 2009 at 5:58 pmMax-1 – First off, I don’t believe in torture by anyone. However, do you really believe certain forces within the government have not abused their power ? And they all believe they are doing it for the good of America. Well, some probably just enjoy it, evil is evil.
March 17th, 2009 at 5:59 pmJust look at what the whistle blowers contend with, searches of their homes, possessions taken, family is harrassed. This is a form of torture when your life is taken over by representatives of this government.
We know what Nixon did to anti-war protestors, he felt he was right.
What about the lawyers that phoney up reasons to allow torture are they not to blame as well ?
The mainstream press needs to be put in their own Free Speech Zones (cages).
March 17th, 2009 at 6:04 pmBecause the Administration clearly believed they had to do these things to protect national security.
Next we’ll be told something completely outrageous like:
We had to kill a hundred thousand innocent civilians and bankrupt your country so that we could keep them from nuking you with WMDs that didn’t exist.
March 17th, 2009 at 6:05 pmNothing “official” is going to ‘happen’ to Boosh, Cheney, or any of ‘em…
It’s just not gonna happen…No way.
If the Obamanauts went after the Busheviks, they’d be pilloried by the Pukes and their compliant, lap-dog press.
All the troubles in the world will be “Obama’s Fault” by this time next year, anyway…
They’re not gonna stir up a shit-storm for something so trivial as “roughing up a couple of terrorists.”
March 17th, 2009 at 6:07 pmYes, I would like to know why bush/cheney should not be questioned about their tactics when in office, first off the total lies, clips should be shown of their comments and then they need to be asked why they lied. But suddenly,they are treated with respect and kid gloves ? Appalling !
March 17th, 2009 at 6:07 pmWell tokin-liberal I agree with you, but for a different reason, MONEY and POWER. These two families have more power than anyone can imagine. Obama would be wasting time.
March 17th, 2009 at 6:12 pmConsider this, why hasn’t Bernie Maddof’s assets in his wife’s name been frozen back in December, but now they are scurrying around trying to do it. Money and contacts have protected that family. And the same for bush/cheney.
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Despotism…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS48k2Sj7VY
Suckers…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23X14HS4gLk
Who needs free press when ABCNNBCBS&FOXPRAVDA have the market cornered?
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March 17th, 2009 at 6:16 pm>the Bush administration’s treatment of al-Qaeda >captives ‘constituted torture,’
Faiz..that should read “ALLEGED Al Queda captives”…dont give the people who claimed they knew saddam had nukes (and knew where his wmd were) the benefit of the doubt about any claims they make..
March 17th, 2009 at 6:18 pmtexaslady,
I’m not disagreeing with you. I’m merely pointing out that maybe not ALL presidents engage in it’s use. And that maybe that because it’s use IS anathema to American Principles, leaving room for other presidents to engage in it, is not the best position to take.
I say this because, if Obama engages in it, would you be shocked? I would hope so, however, the position that ALL PRESIDENTS engage in it is exactly why the media are so damned toned deaf when such an admission is made; That ANY president engaged in it’s use.
More so, what makes it acceptable that ANY president engage in it’s use that it can be dismissed that “ALL Presidents” do it?
I’m pissed that The President of the U.S.A. can engage in, authorize, and LIE to the public about TORTURE. Period. On this we agree. I just happen to believe that not all presidents have engaged in it’s use.
March 17th, 2009 at 6:29 pmtexaslady,
Sorry, didn’t answer your question about the lawyers…
… Which came first, the memo or the order for the memo?
For that is where the criminality can be found.
IMO, I think the lawyers are accessories to the crime.
March 17th, 2009 at 6:35 pmYou know, the get away(with-it) driver.
The MSM only gives you the information it wants you to have not the information that you need to have to make informed decisions and or opinons
March 17th, 2009 at 6:39 pmMax – 1 I am saying that yes, I do believe torture is done by the CIA, covert ops in the name of whatever President is in power, perhaps unknowing to that President. Do, I believe that certain individuals arrange small aircraft to crash when weather is clear, yeah I do. Conspiracy nut, maybe, but interesting research on small aircraft crashes which are convenient for politicians makes people go hmmmmmm.
March 17th, 2009 at 6:42 pmMax I am very certain the order for a memo came first, this is the plan, make it legal. I am still surprised that bush found his backbone and refused cheney’s demand to pardon Libby. Guess bush might believe in the afterlife and is trying to hedge his bets.
March 17th, 2009 at 6:45 pmtokin librul Says:
Nothing “official” is going to ‘happen’ to Boosh, Cheney, or any of ‘em…
It’s just not gonna happen…No way.
OK, so nothing is going to happen to them. If history repeats itself that is. I hope you’re wrong of coarse.
But as long as we’re on about the media’s role, why is the media afraid to talk about the former administration then? They must think it is critical to their own self preservation that they do not talk about the former administration. Nothing new there, but I’m betting FAUX is going all the way down with the ship, while the first network to jump ship may escape in one piece. So far we have people like Olbermann and Maddow [to name just a few] to help lead the MSM out of the republican jungle. Otherwise it’s going to be the people vs. the media…
March 17th, 2009 at 6:51 pmtexaslady,
And let’s not forget the US Militarized anthrax attacks upon Democratic Senator’s Offices and perceived “LIBRUL” press rooms.
I think what you’ve been getting at is the same as me. I think “MODERN” Presidents have used their Office to influence the CIA and other rogue operations (a-la assassin Cheney) to commit heinous crimes in our name. And yes, I think this is a modern invention of their office circa 1900’s onward.
I’m just pressing the issue farther…
… What makes it O.K. for ANY President of the U.S.A.?
Or has the Office of the President of the U.S.A. been so soiled, defaced and desiccated that we can assume, moving forward, that each President of the U.S.A. be allowed this perverse privilege? The media’s silence seems to indicate so. You and I happen to think NOT! And part of the accountability for such wilful ignorance does lie at the feet of the MSM and they rightfully should have to answer the obvious question, “WHAT NEXT?”
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March 17th, 2009 at 6:53 pmdesiccated… s.b desecrated
March 17th, 2009 at 6:56 pmIt is not “torture”, it is “enhanced interrogation techniques”. Can’t you get that through your thick head? Actually you can call it anything you want, it’s still torture. I’m still waiting for an explanation as to why the Red Cross didn’t release that report back in 2006.
March 17th, 2009 at 6:56 pmApe-man – you say to name a few, because there are only a few that have the backbone to ask questions. Never, ever before the last 8 years have I seen so few real investigative journalists. I think the greed has outpaced those who really believe their jobs are to enlighten the public.
March 17th, 2009 at 6:56 pmHow can David Gregory, Matt Lauer, golf with Rush and the likes on Sunday and ask hard questions on Monday.
texaslady,
Bush was smart to not pardon Libby because in doing so would be an admission of Executive guilt…
… (i.e.) “So, Libby did out a covert CIA Officer by following orders from the Executive Branch?”
There has to be a crime for it to be pardoned.
March 17th, 2009 at 6:59 pmRed Cross kept quiet because the powers that be were told to shut up. Finally, truth will come out little by little at what the bush/cheney administration did to control everything.
March 17th, 2009 at 6:59 pmMax-1 I hope that President Obama will bring our country back to being a people proud to be American, because I was totally ashamed of being American while bush/cheney ran the country. We had a son that died for lies in Iraq and another son that was in the group ready to get Osama om Afganistan and were held back because they couldn’t get the go ahead from Washington.
March 17th, 2009 at 7:02 pmtexaslady,
Well, the test will tell…
… The Rule of Law requires CONSEQUENTIAL ACCOUNTABILITY.
However, the Rule of Men requires obedience.
If Obama says that he will follow the Rule of Law and yet does not call for consequential accounting for it’s transgressions from the former President, and the people follow the President’s lead, is this not like saying that we will follow the Rule of Men? And when the next President of the U.S.A. decides to not follow the Rule of Law… will the people follow?
March 17th, 2009 at 7:11 pmtexaslady,
March 17th, 2009 at 7:13 pmSorry for your loss.
A Nazi apologist living in the 21st century. Poor Hitler was a victim of those he had to burn for National Security purposes, and the rest of us have just misunderstood him?
March 17th, 2009 at 7:49 pmMSM, stooges for the Criminal Bush and the RepubliCons.
March 17th, 2009 at 7:55 pmThe Bush Admin’s torture policy was Terrorism at its Worst. Like their supporters, they are cowards and bullies (and genuinely stupid), and were therefore compelled to terrorize everyone else, so they could strut around looking brave and manly. And make lots of money by wrecking the entire world economy.
March 17th, 2009 at 8:33 pmRebecca Lobo Says:
I guess you base that on your ignorance and the fact they dont slavishly conform to ignorant rightwing propaganda. Maddow is a Rhodes scholar a Stanford graduate and has a Doctorate in Political Science. I know you wingnuts arent USED to intelligent people who actually KNOW what they are talking about being commentators. You prefer the abysimally stupid like Hannity or flat out propagandists like O’Rielly or Rush. I get that to stupid people that is top rung. Those of us that are marginally informed however actually LIKE to hear what smart people who know their subjects have to say. Thats allright. Feel free to revel in ignorance.
March 18th, 2009 at 3:39 amAccording to Robert Fisk of The Independent; “The head of an American company whose personnel are implicated in the Iraqi tortures, it now turns out, attended an ‘anti-terror’ training camp in Israel and, earlier this year, was presented with an award by Shaul Mofaz, the right-wing Israeli defence minister.” Israeli mercenaries were seen at Abu Ghraib where brutal and sadistic practices of torture on Iraqi prisoners and detainees are taking place. An Israeli Knesset member told Al-Jazeera; “there are many Israeli experts on torture in Iraq who are transferring to the Americans their accumulative experience of thirty-seven years of torturing and mistreating Palestinians” [4]. Similar reports of Israeli involvement in torture of Iraqi prisoners have been reported in the Daily Star of Lebanon.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11444.htm
March 18th, 2009 at 4:54 am