ThinkFast: March 18, 2009
ThinkFast: March 18, 2009
Edward M. Liddy, the CEO of the bailed-out insurance giant AIG, will testify on Capitol Hill this morning, “where he’ll reluctantly defend millions of dollars’ worth of bonuses doled out to employees” despite the government bailout. In a Washington Post op-ed, Liddy writes that the anger over the bonuses is “understandable, but says that “in America, when you owe people money, you pay them.”
According to the office of the New York attorney general, AIG awarded bonuses to 418 employees last week “and included $33.6 million for 52 people who have left the failed insurance conglomerate.” AIG paid the bonuses, “including more than $1 million each to 73 people, to almost all of the employees…responsible for creating the exotic derivatives that caused AIG’s near collapse.”
A group of eight centrist Senate Democrats “is quietly maneuvering to keep open the option of vetoing two of President Barack Obama’s most ambitious agenda items this year — climate change and health care reform.” The group, which includes Sens. Mary Landrieu (D-LA) and Blanche Lincoln (D-AR), are seeking to kill efforts to pass climate and health care legislation through a budget reconciliation, which requires only 51 votes.
“The Pentagon said it received 2,923 reports of sexual assault across the military in the 12 months that ended Sept. 30,” a 9 percent increase over the totals reported the year earlier. However, only “10 percent to 20 percent of sexual assaults among members of the active duty military are reported.”
“Three powerful House committee chairmen have agreed to work together on legislation to overhaul the health care system, starting with the view that most employers should help finance coverage and that the government should offer a public health insurance plan as an alternative to private insurance.” Reps. George Miller (D-CA), Henry Waxman (D-CA), and Charlie Rangel (D-NY) will “try and work as one committee” in crafting a health care bill.
Obama is “considering expanding the American covert war in Pakistan far beyond the unruly tribal areas to strike at a different center of Taliban power in Baluchistan, where top Taliban leaders are orchestrating attacks into southern Afghanistan.” Further, Obama’s advisers are “recommending preserving the option to conduct cross-border ground actions, using C.I.A. and Special Operations commandos, as was done in September.”
“The ACLU called on Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. yesterday to appoint an independent prosecutor to investigate allegations of torture at CIA secret prisons,” following the leak last weekend of a secret Red Cross report. “The report of these incidents certainly warrants a criminal investigation,” the ACLU said in a letter.
“The Obama administration will endorse a U.N. declaration calling for the worldwide decriminalization of homosexuality that then-President George W. Bush had refused to sign,” the AP reports. The administration has notified the declaration’s French sponsors that they want to be added as a sponsor.
Sen. Richard Lugar (R-IN) offered his support for veteran diplomat Christopher Hill to become the next U.S. ambassador to Iraq, “even as other GOP senators bluntly urged President Barack Obama to withdraw the nomination.” Lugar’s support “is considered crucial to Hill’s nomination because it would provide other moderate GOP senators political cover to vote for him.”
Reacting to Sudan president Omar Hassan al-Bashir’s expulsion of all aid workers from Darfur, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton warned that Bashir’s government must “understand that they will be held responsible for every single death that occurs in those camps.” President Obama will tap Maj. Gen. J. Scott Gration, a Swahili-speaking retired Air Force officer who grew up in Africa, as special envoy to Sudan.
And finally: Mrs. Kucinich dances with the stars. Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) may have nixed his wife, Cindy’s, appearance on Dancing With The Stars, but Rep. Dennis Kucinich seems to be “a more supportive spouse.” His wife, Elizabeth Kucinich, is now appearing as a contestant on “Cleveland’s Dancing with the Stars.”
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“in America, when you owe people money, you pay them.”
Anyone here from CA get an IOU instead of their tax refund?
March 18th, 2009 at 9:04 amI wouldn’t want to be Liddy this morning. How can you defend the indefensible?
March 18th, 2009 at 9:11 amTo repeat the obvious, the automobile companies had contracts with their union emplyees. Said union workers renegociated, much to the companies benefits. Why are those contracts subject to renegociation, yet the financial wizards of AIG have contracts that are sancrosanct? We, the People, are 80% owners of the firm. I, as a part owner, Demand that bounses be pegged to actual performance, and subject to renegociation. If it’s good enough for the UAW….
March 18th, 2009 at 9:13 amThe group, which includes Sens. Mary Landrieu (D-LA) and Blanche Lincoln (D-AK), are seeking to kill efforts to pass climate and health care legislation through a budget reconciliation, which requires only 51 votes.
I really don’t understand morons. Most Americans want reform on both. It’s why we’ve been voting for Democrats who support these issues, and not Republicans.
We really have to stop electing rich people who own stock in oil and insurance companies…
March 18th, 2009 at 9:14 am“The Obama administration will endorse a U.N. declaration calling for the worldwide decriminalization of homosexuality that then-President George W. Bush had refused to sign,” the AP reports.
I really enjoy living in a Westernized country once again….
March 18th, 2009 at 9:15 amSo I also should be rewarded for a job not done well,especially when it causes my company to lose money and help wreck our economy, you sir are a MAROON.You and everyone involved with the bonuses should be FIRED.
March 18th, 2009 at 9:16 amWe the taxpayers owe the band of pirates at AIG nothing. If the only way to unwind this disastrous string of default swaps is to retain the swindlers who set them up in the first place (and undoubtedly collected massive bonuses for illusory profits) then I suggest a prison work release program would be the way to go.
March 18th, 2009 at 9:20 amHussein Leporello Says: Why are those contracts subject to renegociation, yet the financial wizards of AIG have contracts that are sancrosanct?
They are the Brahmins and we, the working class, are the Untouchables in our American socio-eonomic caste system. The demi-gods get whatever they want, while we always have to sacrifice.
March 18th, 2009 at 9:21 am“Edward M. Liddy, the CEO of the bailed-out insurance giant AIG, will testify on Capitol Hill this morning,”
I hope they frisk Grassley for his Hari-Kari sword.
March 18th, 2009 at 9:23 amObviously, Mary Landrieu and Blanche Linclon didn’t read the article in the NYT on March 12. It’s on a report done by the Business Roundtable which is a group of CEO’s of major companies. They conclude: “If the global economy were a 100-yard dash, the U.S. would start 23 yards behind its closest competitors because of health care that costs too much and delivers too little.” The report will be released on Thursday. They say that the U.S. is 23 points behind their five leading economic competitors – Canada, Japan, Germany, the United Kingdom and France. These five countries cover all their citizens with health care. The CEO’s don’t believe in government run health care, but believe in getting costs under control. According to the group, “Other countries spend less on health care and their workers are relatively healthier.”
March 18th, 2009 at 9:23 amLiddy writes that the anger over the bonuses is “understandable, but says that “in America, when you owe people money, you pay them.”
I have an idea, let’s give the companies that accept the bail-out monies the same anti-trust exemption that we give major league baseball. That way, no one ever has to honor their contract…..
March 18th, 2009 at 9:25 amEdward M. Liddy, the CEO of the bailed-out insurance giant AIG, will testify on Capitol Hill this morning,
Actually, as now owners of the company, we demand that the people who work for the company in positions of policy creation b FIRED and forced to surrender ALL SALARIES paid in 2008, as they have been BEYOND any measure, the WORST in the performance of their duties. They killed the friggin company.
March 18th, 2009 at 9:28 amEdward M. Liddy, the CEO of the bailed-out insurance giant AIG, will testify on Capitol Hill this morning,
Actually, as now owners of the company, we demand that the people who work for the company in positions of policy creation b FIRED and forced to surrender ALL SALARIES paid in 2008, as they have been BEYOND any measure, the WORST in the performance of their duties. They killed the friggin company.
Um,, yes MR Liddy, I think it is called FRAUD!!!
March 18th, 2009 at 9:28 amTawdry Says: According to the group, “Other countries spend less on health care and their workers are relatively healthier.”
Important point when debating those who only care about what’s in it for them (a.k.a. Conservatives). If their employees are healthier, their productivity goes up, and that impacts a company’s profits in a positive way.
The French work about 35 hours per week, while we work around 50. Yet, the French have higher productivity levels than we do.
March 18th, 2009 at 9:30 amunbelievable says:
“The French work about 35 hours per week, while we work around 50. Yet, the French have higher productivity levels than we do.”
linky poos please. ;)
March 18th, 2009 at 9:32 amIf they have to have a bonus to do their jobs – give’em stock in the company.
March 18th, 2009 at 9:37 amThe most logical healthcare alternative would be “MedicarePLUS”.
…an extended “full-coverage” version of standard Medicare (standard Medicare only covers pre-existing conditions).
The infrastructure is already there. Simply expand services to include accident/injury protection.
March 18th, 2009 at 9:38 amAlecto Says: linky poos please. ;)
http://www.google.com
I don’t keep the links of every news article I ever read.
Michael Moore also mentioned this in Sicko.
March 18th, 2009 at 9:39 amI can only imagine what kind of REAL money is walking out the backdoor of AIG as we all wring our hands about $165Mil. HA, there is probably BILLIONS going out in the trash.
March 18th, 2009 at 9:40 amAccording to a 2003 survey of 25 industrialized countries conducted by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), the French do work less than most others. They clocked an average 1,431 hours per year. Even allowing six weeks vacation, this works out to just 31 hours per week, less than even “les heures” would dictate. But Norwegian and Dutch employees worked even less. German workers, who traditionally have been viewed as paragons of industrial effort, put in 1,446 hours, barely more than the French. British (1,673 hours), Americans (1,792 hours) and Koreans (2,390 hours) worked substantially more.
Still, French workers remain among the most productive in the world, ahead of Britain, Germany, the United States and Japan, according to the European statistics agency Eurostat, the AP reports.
http://www.forbes.com/2005/03/22/cx_da_0322topnews_print.html
March 18th, 2009 at 9:42 amunbvelievable,
Well if you beleive Krugman than yes.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/29/opinion/29krugman.html
But this guy Stephensen disagrees.
March 18th, 2009 at 9:43 amhttp://divisionoflabour.com/archives/001513.php
I noticed Repubs and Dems alike calling for a special tax on those bonuses.
I suggest the following AIG BONUS TAX: a 100% tax on all AIG executives who received a bonus on all theri income, earned or unearned for the tax year 2008. To be accompanied by full IRS audits on all tax returns for the past 7 years.
March 18th, 2009 at 9:43 amAlecto Says:
unbelievable says:
“The French work about 35 hours per week, while we work around 50. Yet, the French have higher productivity levels than we do.”
linky poos please. ;)
First of all it’s “linky poos, see voo play”
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/04/27/812
March 18th, 2009 at 9:44 amAIG paid the bonuses, “including more than $1 million each to 73 people, to almost all of the employees…responsible for creating the exotic derivatives that caused AIG’s near collapse.
This is what really gets me. Paying bonuses to people who caused the problem in the first place. Then calling them “retention bonuses” after the people have already left the company.
On the other hand, I really don’t see what President Obama can do about this. Bush/Paulson created the problem by not attaching any strings to the money they gave AIG. They were the ones who could have said, “you want the money, no bonuses”.
It also galls me that people are blaming Dodd for this mess and saying that it is the Obama Administration blaming Dodd. The provision in the Economic Recovery plan regarding bonuses to companies receiving taxpayer money could only apply from when the law was passed. If we are to go back to being a country of law, we can’t pass laws that are retroactive. That’s not the way the law works.
March 18th, 2009 at 9:44 amThe group, which includes Sens. Mary Landrieu (D-LA) and Blanche Lincoln (D-AK), are seeking to kill efforts to pass climate and health care legislation through a budget reconciliation, which requires only 51
Of course they are. That would take away their power to control. These Senators make me sick. They are on power trips at a time when this country can’t afford it. I certainly hope that their constituents are letting them know what they think about having Democratic obstructionists along with the Republican’t obstructionists.
March 18th, 2009 at 9:46 amunbelievable,
March 18th, 2009 at 9:46 amOne thing is for certain. Healthcare costs DEFINATELY drag down ANY productivity or efficiencies of business, and need reform NOW, as in single payor, or optional gov program buyin by mandated corporations. That will get the Universal healthcare going, and off the backs of the corporations, and allow for mobile workers, who are not endentured servants.
Bobwurst, that link provided no info regarding the metric in question.
March 18th, 2009 at 9:49 am“Three powerful House committee chairmen have agreed to work together on legislation to overhaul the health care system, starting with the view that most employers should help finance coverage and that the government should offer a public health insurance plan as an alternative to private insurance.”
If they choose to allow private health insurance to continue, the need to place some very heavy restrictions on them. Restrictions such as stopping them from rejecting people for pre-existing conditions, or if they accept them, not paying for treatment for the pre-existing condition for 6 months or more. Then they need to require them to cover any treatment a doctor recommends. They also need to provide for a person to leave their private plan and enter the public plan if they so choose. If there is no competition, the private insurers will continue on with gouging us and refusing to pay legitimate claims.
March 18th, 2009 at 9:51 amLiddy writes that the anger over the bonuses is “understandable, but says that “in America, when you owe people money, you pay them.”
What Liddy still (and probably never will) get, is that these employees, under his guidance, ruined his company and without US taxpayer (new owner..ahem) assistance, nearly took the financial system out.
March 18th, 2009 at 9:51 amWe owe them, yes, but not money.
I certainly hope that during health reform the proposal about veterans health care is considered. I read this article yesterday and I am furious. Our veterans deserve better than this proposal from Obama. While it may seem logical at first glance, it is going to put a lot of vets at risk for less than adequate care.
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/03/17/obama-pursuing-budget-plan-veterans-oppose/
March 18th, 2009 at 9:51 amCorrected Liddy: “in America, when you steal people’s money, you keep it.
It makes much more sense now, Mr. Liddy…
March 18th, 2009 at 9:52 amunbelievable,
Moore does say it in Sicko
http://www.michaelmoore.com/sicko/checkup/
SiCKO: The productivity rate per hour in France is higher than in America.
According to the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, France has a higher labor productivity (GDP per hour worked) than the United States. “OECD in Figures 2005, 2005/Supplement 1 at 84.
March 18th, 2009 at 9:53 amhttp://213.253.134.29/oecd/pdfs/browseit/0105061E.PDF
Bush said this during his recent speech in Canada:
What is the answer to that?
March 18th, 2009 at 9:53 ambackedup,
March 18th, 2009 at 9:55 amThe answer is HANG BUSH!!!!
Bilbo Hussein Baggins Says:
And we don’t give telecoms retroactive immunity for breaking the law either.
March 18th, 2009 at 9:56 amWe think? the answer is bush is an idiot and you are too for thinking this is relevant.
March 18th, 2009 at 9:58 amThat MM link was dead. Here is the OECD.
March 18th, 2009 at 9:59 amhttp://www.oecd.org/document/62/0,2340,en_2649_201185_2345918_1_1_1_1,00.html
The House and Senate are ready to pass special legislation to tax these bonuses at 100%.
Do it.
March 18th, 2009 at 10:00 amWho is stephensen, I googled him and he appears to be just a blogger, no where near the credibility that Krugman has.
March 18th, 2009 at 10:01 amAIG = PIG
March 18th, 2009 at 10:01 amBush said this during his recent speech in Canada:
“I want people to understand what it was like to sit in the Oval Office and have them come in and say we have captured Khalid Sheik Mohammed, the mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks, the alleged killer of a guy named Danny Pearl because he was simply Jewish, and we think we have information on further attacks on the United States,” Bush said.
What is the answer to that?
Suspend the Constitution.
March 18th, 2009 at 10:02 amViolate the Geneva Convention.
Circle the Wagons.
Read about pet goats.
Here it is unbelievable.
Labour Productivity.
http://ocde.p4.siteinternet.com/publications/doifiles/012005061G006.xls
Norway
Luxembourg
Belgium
France
Iceland
Netherlands
United States
In 2005 though…
March 18th, 2009 at 10:03 amA group of eight centrist Senate Democrats
Ah yes, those special interest groups do pack a punch don’t they ?
March 18th, 2009 at 10:04 amFred,
March 18th, 2009 at 10:04 amI agree, but his thoughts were cogent and seemed plausible.
Are you asking what’s the answer to George W. Bush wanting us to understand what it was like to make hard decisions? Or what’s the answer to those who’ve just caught Khalid Sheik Muhammad?
For the latter, I’d suggest something like: “Excellent work. Now do everything that’s humanly possible to get him to talk, stopping short of torture. The United States does not torture.” Something along those lines would have been an acceptable answer.
For the former, how about: “I’m sure making important, difficult decisions was very hard for you, but no one said the job would be easy. If you didn’t want history to judge you on the decisions you make, perhaps you shouldn’t have run for President of the United States.”
March 18th, 2009 at 10:13 amAIG bonues = “Pay for performance” in all its glory. Coming to a school & hospital near you.
Ed Liddy worked for a private equity underwriter before AIG. It’s nothing for them to throw around millions of taxpayer dollars.
March 18th, 2009 at 10:18 amReport: IDF chief gave U.S. fresh intel on Iran nukes program
American sources told the Saudi newspaper Al-Watan that Israel Defense Forces chief Gabi Ashkenazi provided fresh intelligence to the United States concerning Iran’s nuclear facility in Arak during his visit to Washington earlier this week, according to Israel Radio.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1071977.html
March 18th, 2009 at 10:20 amIs it just me or does it almost sound like Cheney’s “INVITING” a terrorist attack?
March 18th, 2009 at 10:21 amstateofthedivision Says:
but most people with sense know that Israel speaks hogwash. Objective reporting refutes Israel’s claim.
March 18th, 2009 at 10:23 amWhat is the answer to that?
There was NO question posited.
There’s a picture of you under the Webster Dictionary definition for the word DOOFUS.
March 18th, 2009 at 10:23 amYeah, state, what Fred said. I give Israel ZERO on their Iranian intel cred.
March 18th, 2009 at 10:25 amRaptureReady Says:
Son, take the crucifix outta your a$$.
That’s gonna leave a mark.
March 18th, 2009 at 10:27 amFrom AIG’s last annual report:
Capital Markets
Capital Markets represents the operations of AIGFP, which engages as principal in a wide variety of financial transactions, including standard and customized financial products involving commodities, credit, currencies, energy, equities and rates. The credit products include credit protection written through credit default swaps on super senior risk tranches of diversified pools of loans and debt securities. AIGFP also invests in a diversified portfolio of securities and principal investments and engages in borrowing activities that include issuing standard and structured notes and other securities and entering into guaranteed investment agreements (GIAs).
It also showed AIG is a serial ethics abuser:
AIG made payments or placed amounts in escrow in 2006 totaling approximately $1.64 billion, $225 million of which represented fines and penalties.
March 18th, 2009 at 10:34 amdon’t you believe that you are entitled to that money. The answer is yes!
Now you’re just cramming it deeper, sick little fcuk.
Give Jesus a break.
March 18th, 2009 at 10:38 amAIG’s bonus program is P4P (from SEC filings):
Annual cash bonus. Annual cash bonuses are intended to reward overall AIG, business unit and individual performance during the year. The bonus paid to each participant in the executive bonus pool is generally based on an assessment of business unit performance and individual performance for the year, taking into account the individual’s target bonus level for the year.
In addition, to provide the overall AIG performance element, the Committee establishes the annual executive bonus pool for participants (excluding the Chief Executive Officer) at the beginning of the year based on a total bonus level intended to be comparable to market competitors. The annual pool is adjusted by the Committee at year-end within a range of 0 to 150 percent based on AIG’s overall results relative to the current year’s performance objectives, the prior year’s performance, market conditions and estimated performance of competitors. This adjusted pool amount acts as a ceiling for the total annual bonuses to participants and provides an overall AIG performance component.
March 18th, 2009 at 10:40 amDaryll, if these AIG professionals, who already made a very healthy salary, cared about saving their company and saving their country, don’t you believe that they should voluntarily forego those bonuses and renegotiate their compensation, in the same manner that the union car workers did? The answer should be “yes”!
March 18th, 2009 at 10:40 amThis rapture ready dude HAS to be a parody. Nobody is really that stupid, are they?
March 18th, 2009 at 10:41 amThe auto workers had contracts. The adjusted and they could ill afford it. Shut up.
March 18th, 2009 at 10:43 amRantingTommy, unfortunately, the answer to your question IS “yes”.
March 18th, 2009 at 10:43 amState, what’s your point. We already know everything you have posted. It’s old news.
March 18th, 2009 at 10:46 amwatchdog Says:
watchpuppy thinks a political contribution is a personal bonus……way to live on the fringe of reality.
No wonder no one takes you seriously. Did your mother leave you at the orphanage door or are you a crack baby.
March 18th, 2009 at 10:59 amYer watch is running slow, sWATCHIE…
We covered all that yesterday.
Busy licking yer own…???
March 18th, 2009 at 11:00 amRaptureReady Says:
My brothers and sisters… blah blah blah… blah lbah blah… So, instead of expressing your anger towards them, I would suggest that your anger should be redirected towards our Congressional leadership and Hussein, for their failure to read the fine print.
_______________
Dear idiotic poster… why do you want to blame “Hussein” for something that happened 4 months BEFORE he got into office?
Perhaps YOU need to read the NOT-SO-FINE print…
_______________
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122156561931242905.html
SEPTEMBER 16, 2008
U.S. to Take Over AIG in $85 Billion Bailout; Central Banks Inject Cash as Credit Dries Up
Emergency Loan Effectively Gives Government Control of Insurer; Historic Move Would Cap 10 Days That Reshaped U.S. Finance
By MATTHEW KARNITSCHNIG, DEBORAH SOLOMON, LIAM PLEVEN and JON E. HILSENRATH
The U.S. government seized control of American International Group Inc. — one of the world’s biggest insurers — in an $85 billion deal that signaled the intensity of its concerns about the danger a collapse could pose to the financial system.
March 18th, 2009 at 11:07 amunbelievable Says:
——————————————————————————–
The group, which includes Sens. Mary Landrieu (D-LA) and Blanche Lincoln (D-AK), are seeking to kill efforts to pass climate and health care legislation through a budget reconciliation, which requires only 51 votes.
I really don’t understand morons. Most Americans want reform on both. It’s why we’ve been voting for Democrats who support these issues, and not Republicans.
We really have to stop electing rich people who own stock in oil and insurance companies…
We’ll see what the specifics of Obama’s climate legislation is, but it could be that these Senator’s will be doing him a huge favor if they block it. O. must have said a million times during the campaign that no one making less the 250K would pay a penny more in taxes. The cap and trade proposals I have seen – and again, we need the specifics – will put a tax on enery that will hit all Americans. That would be political suicide for Obama, as well as disaster for the economy – again, these Senators would be helping the President if they blocked such a tax.
March 18th, 2009 at 11:10 amKeltoi Says:
No it wouldn’t and it wouldn’t be doing our country a favor in the long run either.
March 18th, 2009 at 11:14 amkeltoy, shortsightedness and instant gratification as you suggest is the reason we are in this mess.
Those old notions are passe and are the reason the gop is in decline.
March 18th, 2009 at 11:20 amWow, these trolls are the most partisan things I’ve ever seen. Twisting and spinning ALWAYS. No wonder they have lost the last 3 Presidential elections (yes they lost to Gore and Kerry) and have lost control of Congress.
Rushpublicans are not just cowards, they are losers too.
March 18th, 2009 at 11:22 amFred Says:
It is simple. He made a “read my lips, no new taxes pledge” on those earning less than 250K. If he breaks that pledge he will be a one term President as sure as Bush 41.
March 18th, 2009 at 11:31 amYour attempt to make something out of nothing ends at your lips. Your predictions fall on deaf and uncaring ears.
March 18th, 2009 at 11:33 amIn America, Mr. Liddy needs over 100 BILLION dollars of TAXPAYER money just to keep his business afloat. He’s like a welfare recipient handing over his food stamps to the crack dealer.
March 18th, 2009 at 11:33 amWAYNEBRO Says:
“Is it just me or does it almost sound like Cheney’s “INVITING” a terrorist attack?”
No, more like planning one… just sayin’.
March 18th, 2009 at 11:35 amRaptureReady Says:
“If you have a binding contract between you and your employer that includes an automatic bonus, regardless of the corporate circumstance, don’t you believe that you are entitled to that money.”
If my actions as an employee lead to the destruction of, not only said Company, but the Global Economy, and/or I left said Company, no. I would not expect to be “reimbursed” for my work and would plan to spend as much time as I could with my family before being sent to prison.
March 18th, 2009 at 11:41 amKeltoi Says:
“That would be political suicide for Obama, as well as disaster for the economy”
I see what you’re saying about the 8 Democrats, but I think you’re making a pretty loose association here and actually have it backwards.
I think that Obama really only needs to get Iraq/Afghanistan in some MAJOR way and 1 other big project like either healthcare or something major for climate change to win a second term. I don’t believe that the tax aspect of a cap and trade system would even register as a raise in taxes to the general public.
There’s no current policy from Obama suggesting a raise in taxes, but even if it were, our economy is already facing disaster and energy prices will be rising anyway so the hypothetical taxing of energy will be pretty insignificant compared to the raise in fuel prices (like we faced a few months ago, but more than likely much worse).
Obama also pledged to help the environment. We also have to remember that fossil fuels are a disaster for our ecology… No ecology no economy.
March 18th, 2009 at 11:59 am666lattes You missed keltoy’s point which is a ludicrous attempt to paint Obama as going back on his tax pledge. He’s trying to say that Obama will use a back door tax on energy that will be interpreted as a tax increase similar to the one that cost bushie his second term.
It’s a stretch even for keltoy but you have to give him credit for being a good troll and disiminating the facts to make it look like Obama is a faiure before the fact.
March 18th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
Keltoi Says:
“That would be political suicide for Obama, as well as disaster for the economy”
____________
It appears the Chinese are getting leery of buying any more of our debt.
Not good…
I got a three step plan for ya that’ll straighten out the country…
1. Cut military spending and entitlements (Medicare specifically) in equal amounts.
2. Re-regulate the health care industry so it is NOT a for-profit industry anymore.
3. Return the highest income tax rates to the levels they were in the Eisenhower years… 92%… when they were paying off the WW II debt.
Guarantee ya… it’ll work.
March 18th, 2009 at 12:18 pm666lattes Says:
I think that Obama really only needs to get Iraq/Afghanistan in some MAJOR way and 1 other big project like either healthcare or something major for climate change to win a second term.
I agree, but I think he’d be much smarter to go for healthcare. It is a much better issue for him and wouldn’t require enacting a regressive energy tax.
I don’t believe that the tax aspect of a cap and trade system would even register as a raise in taxes to the general public.
Are you kidding? Hell, I could write the campaign ad for that one. If he raises taxes on the below 250K bracket in any way that will be ballyhooed by whoever the GOP nominee is in 2012.
There’s no current policy from Obama suggesting a raise in taxes, but even if it were, our economy is already facing disaster and energy prices will be rising anyway so the hypothetical taxing of energy will be pretty insignificant compared to the raise in fuel prices (like we faced a few months ago, but more than likely much worse).
As I said, we need to see the specifics, but it it raises taxes on energy it is going to be trouble for O.
Obama also pledged to help the environment. We also have to remember that fossil fuels are a disaster for our ecology… No ecology no economy.
I expect he will help the environment. He just has to do it in such a way that he doesn’t break his campaign promises about taxes or it will cost him. Even Bayh’s Senate Blue Dogs won’t support him, I predict.
March 18th, 2009 at 12:24 pmThe Republic of Stupidity Says:
——————————————————————————–
Keltoi Says:
“That would be political suicide for Obama, as well as disaster for the economy”
____________
It appears the Chinese are getting leery of buying any more of our debt.
Not good…
I got a three step plan for ya that’ll straighten out the country…
1. Cut military spending and entitlements (Medicare specifically) in equal amounts.
2. Re-regulate the health care industry so it is NOT a for-profit industry anymore.
3. Return the highest income tax rates to the levels they were in the Eisenhower years… 92%… when they were paying off the WW II debt.
Guarantee ya… it’ll work.
Hmm…I am with you on all but point number 3. Not sure if it is politically possible (where is the cut off for this Draconian tax hike?)and the economic effect….hm. Would have to know more about the specifics here.
March 18th, 2009 at 12:26 pmKeltoi Says:
“I think he’d be much smarter to go for healthcare.”
Agreed… Big on healthcare and half-assed on the environment and he’ll be fine politically.
“He just has to do it in such a way that he doesn’t break his campaign promises about taxes or it will cost him.”
I believe that it was widely interpreted as pledge on income taxes, specifically. I think most people would let something like that slide if all of the benefits and what is at stake are publically weighed.
Although he may have won some votes over the tax issue, I don’t think it was as determinative to his win as you seem to suggest. Most voters have grown accustomed to paying taxes and it obviously isn’t as big of a deal as the GOP seems to think it is. It’s all they ever want to talk about and look at their poll numbers. Your campaign ad would simply be seen as “old politics” by most people who are tired of it in the face of much bigger issues.
There are far more serious issues facing us today and the GOP scare-tactics about raising taxes barely register on the radar at this point. It could and undoubtedly would cost him some votes, but not a second term.
March 18th, 2009 at 12:39 pm——————————————————————————–
666lattes Says:
There are far more serious issues facing us today and the GOP scare-tactics about raising taxes barely register on the radar at this point. It could and undoubtedly would cost him some votes, but not a second term.
I guess we will know which of us is right based on what he does going forward.
March 18th, 2009 at 12:57 pmYou’ve raised the hypotheticals here, but I don’t think we have to wait to see that the large majority of voters don’t consider taxes a top issue… Otherwise, Republicans would be a bit more popular right now.
March 18th, 2009 at 1:06 pmI didn’t see it that way. I saw it as pulling unrelated ideas from left and right field and trying to make them somehow be the same thing.
You know the trick, like saying bring home the troops is unpatriotic. It’s dishonest and contemptable.
March 18th, 2009 at 1:15 pm666lattes Says:
——————————————————————————–
You’ve raised the hypotheticals here, but I don’t think we have to wait to see that the large majority of voters don’t consider taxes a top issue… Otherwise, Republicans would be a bit more popular right now.
It has more to do with keeping the promises you make on the campaign trail than any specific policy, IMO.
March 18th, 2009 at 1:32 pmThat must explain why you’re such a big supporter of the crowd that said they would bring integrity to the oval office in 2000.
Don’t let that stop you from holding democrats to a different standard though. It would confuse us about who you are.
March 18th, 2009 at 1:48 pmFred Says:
“I saw it as pulling unrelated ideas from left and right field and trying to make them somehow be the same thing.”
Or that, yeah ;)
Keltoi Says:
“It has more to do with keeping the promises you make on the campaign trail than any specific policy, IMO.”
Is this the same standard to which you hold every candidate?
It seems that this is indicitave of how Obama is somehow more worthy of being held to a higher standard than other politicians and it would take A LOT more of a contradiction in policy to foil that general sense of him (IMO).
March 18th, 2009 at 2:06 pm——————————————————————————–
666lattes Says:
Is this the same standard to which you hold every candidate?
Yes, doing what you say is important.
It seems that this is indicitave of how Obama is somehow more worthy of being held to a higher standard than other politicians and it would take A LOT more of a contradiction in policy to foil that general sense of him (IMO).
March 18th, 2009 at 2:16 pm666lattes Says:
It seems that this is indicitave of how Obama is somehow more worthy of being held to a higher standard than other politicians and it would take A LOT more of a contradiction in policy to foil that general sense of him (IMO).
I think he does have a better image for being a promise keeper; he claimed to be a different kind of politician, remember. He has also only been in office a few months. The longer he rules, the harder it will be to keep all his promises. I do think the tax pledge is a big deal, but again, we’ll see if he agrees with me based on whether he makes a big raise in energy tax.
March 18th, 2009 at 2:18 pmkeltoy, you’re getting as bad a backup.
can we have a pool dad?
March 18th, 2009 at 2:26 pmcan we have a pool dad?
can we have a pool dad?
Keltoi Says:
“Yes, doing what you say is important.”
I agree and I’m certainly not making excuses for him to contradict any promises. I just disagree that a hypothetical raise in energy taxes equates to an increase in income tax for 95% of the country in the voting public psyche.
I remember the debate w/ McCain when they were talking about “taxes” and income taxes seemed to be implied there since they were talking about specific levels of income… they weren’t talking about energy or cigarette taxes, for that matter.
“Staying (or not staying) true to campaign promises” seems to be a common refrain currently, to the degree of which I don’t recall other politicians facing.
A lot of people have placed a lot of different hopes in him, so he has a lot of people to let down once reality sets in, for sure. My personal intentions have always been to hold him to the standard of what promises he keeps in the face of reality vs. my hopes.
I could see it being possible that if he doesn’t get the 2 big issues (war healthcare and/or environment) accomplished, that some kind of smaller issue like a tax increase could make a little, but noticable difference, but it would have to be attached to something MUCH bigger like that… not a stand alone issue.
I’m more worried about his image internationally regarding countries like China trying to taunt him into appearing overly aggressive.
March 18th, 2009 at 2:40 pm666lattes Says:
I’m more worried about his image internationally regarding countries like China trying to taunt him into appearing overly aggressive.
A higly valid concern. But with China, it is about face. We are their golden egg laying goose, they will tweak us but so long as we let them have Tibet, don’t attack N. Korea and don’t encourage Taiwan to declare independence, it is all just posturing.
March 18th, 2009 at 3:33 pmI appreciate the heads up. But why does TP routinely link to Roll Call’s stories which turns into a dead end for those of us who aren’t subscribers. Either give us the whole story (for starters, who are the other six?) or tell us where we can find it.
March 18th, 2009 at 4:32 pmUnited States Economic Collapse Facing Its Weimar Moment
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article9446.html
neato
March 18th, 2009 at 6:35 pmAmerica’s ally.
Haaretz expose: IDF testimonies paint grim picture of Gaza war
Initial testimonies given by Israel Defense Forces soldiers and officers who fought in Israel’s offensive on the Gaza Strip earlier this year paints a grim picture of civilian deaths, deliberate destruction of Palestinian property and lenient orders to open fire.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html
March 18th, 2009 at 8:07 pm