Powell: I Don’t Know Whether Torture ‘Would Be Considered Criminal’
Powell: I Don’t Know Whether Torture ‘Would Be Considered Criminal’
Last night, MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow interviewed former Secretary of State Colin Powell. Unlike many journalists, Maddow asked him about — and pressed him repeatedly on — his role in approving torture against detainees. Specifically, she asked him about reports that he was among nine White House “principals” who approved torture techniques so specifically that “interrogation sessions were almost choreographed.”
Powell refused to acknowledge his role in these meetings, and claimed ignorance about long-released legal memos that specifically authorized torture. Choosing his words carefully, he would say only that, “at least from the State Department standpoint,” it was important to stand by the Geneva Conventions. Powell also questioned whether tactics like sleep deprivation, stress positions, or waterboarding were “criminal” — despite specific U.S. statutes and international law forbidding torture:
MADDOW: If there was a meeting though at which senior officials were saying, were discussing and giving the approval for sleep deprivation, stress positions, waterboarding. Were those officials committing crimes when they were giving their authorization?
POWELL: You’re asking me a legal question. I mean, I don’t know that any of these items would be considered criminal. And I will wait for whatever investigations that the government or the Congress intends to pursue with this.
Throughout the interview, Powell shirked any responsibility to account for his actions by deferring to hypothetical “investigations” or pointing to the unreleased — and possibly non-existent — “written record” of these meetings as providing the ultimate final word. As Maddow pointed, it’s unclear whether any such investigations will ever take place. Watch it:
Powell has gotten credit in the past for supposedly “breaking” with the Bush administration on the issue of torture. However, his refusal to even acknowledge centuries-long definitions of torture is a discouraging indication that he is more concerned with protecting himself legally than getting to the truth of America’s national disgrace.
Transcript:
RACHEL: On the issue of intelligence, tainted evidence, and those things, were you ever present at meetings at which the interrogation of prisoners, like Abu Zubaydah, other prisoners in those early days, where the interrogation was directed, where specific interrogations were approved? It has been reported on a couple of different sources that there were principals meetings to which you would have typically been there, where interrogations were almost play by play discussed.
POWELL: They were not play-by-play discussed, but there were conversations at senior level as to what could be done with respect to interrogation. I cannot go further because I don’t have knowledge of all the meetings that took place or what was discussed at each of those meetings and I think it’s going to have to be the written record of those meetings that will determine whether anything improper took place.
But it was always the case that, at least from the State Department standpoint, we should be consistent with the requirements of the Geneva Convention and that’s why this was such a controversial, controversial issue. But you’ll have to go — and in due course I think we all will go — to the written record of what memos were signed. I’m not sure what memos were signed or not signed. I didn’t have access to all of that information.
MADDOW: If there was a meeting though at which senior officials were saying, were discussing and giving the approval for sleep deprivation, stress positions, waterboarding. Were those officials committing crimes when they were giving their authorization?
POWELL: You’re asking me a legal question. I mean, I don’t know that any of these items would be considered criminal. And I will wait for whatever investigations that the government or the Congress intends to pursue with this.
MADDOW: There have been two Bush administration officials now who have said explicitly that what we did at Guantanamo was torture. One of them was the State Department general counsel for Guantanamo litigation, a man named, um, Vijay – excuse me – Padmanabhan.
POWELL: I don’t know him.
MADDOW: Also Susan Crawford, who heads up the military tribunals at Guantanamo. Both have said it was torture. Do you think that they are wrong? Do you feel like you have enough information to know if people were waterboarded, is that torture?
POWELL: I will let those who are making the legal determination of that make that judgment. Susan Crawford has made a statement and she is in a position of authority to make such a statement, has access to all the information. The lawyer you mentioned who is working in I guess in the legal advisor’s office in the State Department, but I don’t believe I know him, has made statements recently. What’s the basis for his statements and what meetings he was in and whether he was in Guantanamo I just don’t know.
MADDOW: I guess have to ask that — just a broader question about whether or not you have regrets, not about what the Bush administration did broadly in the years that you were secretary of state but the decisions that you participated in about interrogation, about torture, about the other things that are now so controversial —
POWELL: We had no meeting on torture. It is constantly said that the meetings – I had an issue with this – we had meetings on what torture to administer. What I recall, the meetings I was in, and I was not in all the meetings and I was not a author of many of the memos that have been written and some have come out and some have not come out. The only meetings I recall were where we talked about what is it we can do with respect to trying to get information from individuals who were in our custody. And I will just have to wait until the full written record is available and has been examined.
MADDOW: I don’t mean to press you on this to the point of discomfort, but there is an extent to which there is a legal discussion around this where everybody feels a little constrained by the legal terms and whether or not they are a legal professional. There is also the policy implications that you’ve been so eloquent about, in terms of what the implications are of these policies for the U.S. abroad in a continuing way. And you’ve been very optimistic in thinking that America still has a reservoir of good will around the world that we can call on regardless of these difficulties that we’ve had around these issues.
If specific interrogation techniques were being approved by people at the political level in the Cabinet, it doesn’t — the legal niceties of it almost become less important.
POWELL: I don’t know where these things were being approved at a political level.
MADDOW: If there a principals meeting at the White House to discuss interrogation techniques?
POWELL: It does not mean it was approved, anything was approved at a meeting.
MADDOW: OK.
POWELL: It depends on, did the meeting end up in a conclusion or was it just a briefing that then went to others to make a final decision on and to document. And so it is a legal issue and I think we have to be very careful and I have to be very careful because I don’t want to be seen as implicating anybody or accusing anybody because I don’t have the complete record on this. And that complete record I think in due course will come out.
Topic Cloud
ArchivesBlog Roll
Those Abu Ghraib sex torture photos will been on the the internet for DECADES to come… Botch’s lasting legacy as the Worst POTUS in our history.
The American Caligula…
April 2nd, 2009 at 9:49 amthis man is *NOT* a hero.
April 2nd, 2009 at 9:49 amI watched this last night and I’m extremely disappointed in Powell – seems like he’s just trying to cover his own a$$.
April 2nd, 2009 at 9:53 ammore like Colon Powell
April 2nd, 2009 at 9:56 amI have always admired Powell, but not in this instance. I think he sold himself out to the Bushies. I do not understand why the decision was made that America would not follow the Geneva Conventions. It is a great shame, and tarnishes Powell for going along with this practice. Not to mention, it didn’t work!
April 2nd, 2009 at 9:57 amPOWELL: You’re asking me a legal question. I mean, I don’t know that any of these items would be considered criminal.
__________
You’re right – it IS a legal question, and here’s your legal answer:
The United States signed the United Nations Convention on Torture on April 18, 1988 and ratified it on October 21, 1994. That makes it binding U.S. law that very clearly makes it a crime to commit acts of torture.
There is no grey area, there is no mitigating circumstance, there is no debate. It is very clearly a crime.
April 2nd, 2009 at 9:57 amPOWELL: You’re asking me a legal question.
No its not a legal question. Its a common sense question. Torture is criminal and cant be justified no matter how you spin it
April 2nd, 2009 at 9:57 amPowell is a national disgrace.
He sold out our armed services for a job. He used his cred to lie us into war at the UN. He kept his mouth shut when bush was breaking the Geneva Conventions. Now, he won’t even be honest about what they did.
To Hell with Colin Powell.
April 2nd, 2009 at 9:59 amI watched that last night. His body language told a lot. Maddow said something about not wanting to make him uncomfortable. It was quite ironic!
April 2nd, 2009 at 9:59 amPowell chose his words very carefully because he was weaseling. He has a lot to hide about what went on in those meetings & last night’s interview only highlighted it. Not fooling anyone, Powell.
I kept flashing on him holding up that vial of “yellowcake” at the UN as he talked in a circle without really answering. Must have been his expression, same as at the UN, faux gravity/sincerity trying to mask the real goal, CYA.
April 2nd, 2009 at 10:03 am& anyone who thinks that Powell “selling out” doesnt have anything to do with advancing Michael Powell’s career is ***NAIVE***
April 2nd, 2009 at 10:04 amPowell is just another war criminal of the chimpy administration. As far as I’m concerned, he lost any and all respect when he delivered that bullshit speech at the UN Security Council trying to justify war with Iraq.
Hang his sorry ass at Nuremberg with his co-conspirators.
April 2nd, 2009 at 10:05 amI watched the interview, as well, & don’t disagree with the above comments.
I really wanted to believe Powell.
But I can’t. Too much water under the board. er, bridge.
April 2nd, 2009 at 10:09 amthis man has been a big disappointment.
many times over.
April 2nd, 2009 at 10:12 amThe ultimate irony of all this is that when it finally reaches a head, the person that the Republicans will throw under the bus will be Colin Powell.
April 2nd, 2009 at 10:12 amanyone that championed the invasion of a sovereign nation that never did anything to the US is a war criminal.
it’s that simple.
April 2nd, 2009 at 10:14 amthe person that the Republicans will throw under the bus will be Colin Powell.
Where I’m from we call that “just desserts”
April 2nd, 2009 at 10:14 amPowell had every opportunity to not participate–but not only did he go along (however grudgingly), he put on a farce at the UN that he knew would fool enough of the public to provide cover for the Bush warmongers, even though he also knew more informed minds could (and did) pick his claims apart, but also knowing the US press would ignore any informed criticism.
He abandoned whatever integrity he had when he helped cover-up MyLai, but he thinks he can hold on to it by refusing to acknowledge the important part he played in the Bush Administrations illegal activities.
In the end he was “just following orders”.
Having helped start the Iraq war, has he since championed Veteran’s needs? Has he spoken out about KBR? Has he spoken out about the use of mercernaries (Blackwater in particular)?
Not that I know-of: Others in the military have done, at great personal and professional risk, but not Powell, who never missed an opportunity to mention how much he cared about the well-being of those under his command.
He’s a self-serving hypocrite and liar, and a war criminal.
April 2nd, 2009 at 10:20 amI haven’t admired Powell since he was played like a stooge by the Bush administration. I could never imagine going to the UN and holding up Drawings of what a mobile weapons lab looked like. I should say what a mobile weapons lab might look like if there were any at all. He presented his cartoons as fact. What a joke. He had no credibility at all.
April 2nd, 2009 at 10:21 amAcid the brown reduviidae Says:
the person that the Republicans will throw under the bus will be Colin Powell.
Where I’m from we call that “just desserts”
Yes, but if it deflects from others who are as if not more guilty, then it is not justice.
Just-desserts are nice, but just-ice is better.
April 2nd, 2009 at 10:24 amIt’s every rat for himself. In some corner of his mind, Powell knows what he was a part of. I hope the pain is unbearable.
http://www.pufferfishblog.com/
April 2nd, 2009 at 10:30 am“I will wait for whatever investigations that the government or the Congress intends to pursue ”
I just hope that there are investigations. I’m hoping that the actions in Spain bear some fruit.
“You’re asking me a legal question”
Yes. One that you as a GENERAL IN THE MILITARY should have had to consider before. In military actions, you often take prisoners and then have responsibility for their treatment.
Like others above, Powell has fallen considerably in my estimation. I would like to think of it as an honorable man who got caught up in the Bush vortex. But seeing him still making these untenable statements, I tend to think he has soiled his soul.
April 2nd, 2009 at 10:35 amraynman Says
April 2nd, 2009 at 10:12 am
The ultimate irony of all this is that when it finally reaches a head, the person that the Republicans will throw under the bus will be Colin Powell.
_____________________________________________________________
And apparently Powell hasn’t accepted his inevitable fate yet, because he’s still acting like somebody who’s about to be subpoenaed and has hope of coming out unscathed.
If the sh!t ever hits the fan, Powell will be one of the ones sacrificed. He could regain some of his hero capital (most of which he lost by working for Bushco) by going John Dean as he goes down. Hopefully, he will realize this before it’s too late.
April 2nd, 2009 at 10:35 amThe one question Rachel never quite asked when he was tap dancing around the torture meetings, the lack of a “complete record” and the “legal questions” she was asking was “Did any forms of interrogation discussed in the meetings you did attend raise concerns in your mind as a career officer in the United States Army schooled in the mandates of the Geneva Convention?” As uneasy as he already was during that line of questioning I am fairly certain he would have swallowed his tongue trying to avoid answering.
April 2nd, 2009 at 10:36 amMaddow went as far as she could, short of embarrassing him. Her interviewing skills demonstrate that she doe sher homework beforehand and is prepared not only with questions, but with follow ups as well.
CNN hosts as well as network news hosts might take a lesson.
As for Powell, he was not about to incriminate himself, although his parsing of words was pretty clear.
April 2nd, 2009 at 10:42 amNot that Powell shouldn’t be embarrassed — he should be ashamed! But that’s not Maddow’s style.
April 2nd, 2009 at 10:44 amI was disgusted when I saw this last night. What a disgusting weasel. He had a chance to save his reputation and earn back our respect, but he chose to cover his own ass. Rachel gave him every opportunity, but add this to the list of Powell’s regrets.
Dismissed.
April 2nd, 2009 at 10:47 amEach time I hope that America could possibly regain it’s moral standing and sense of justice, for example by upholding the rule of law regarding war crimes, an interview or statement like Powell’s reminds me that America will unfortunately continue to add more tragic and horrific chapters to our nation’s history without redress.
April 2nd, 2009 at 10:48 amPowell is disgraced as I wrote about a year ago!
April 2nd, 2009 at 10:48 amAh, Powell….always the good soldier.
This stems from a sense of loyalty to the commander-in-chief (the other Dick)…. Dick Cheney.
“Five-deferment” Cheney never recovered emotionally during/after the event of 9/11 when the secret service grabbed him the by seat of his pants and carried him to the underground WH safe-cave during the attack on the twin-towers. By accounts, Cheney was scared sh!ttless and from that point on, George W. became a figure-head while Cheney (behind the scenes) circumvented “reasonable” thinking, questioned patriotism, and took us down the path that would be the biggest strategic blunder in U.S. history.
Powell is covering his own legal butt………
April 2nd, 2009 at 10:56 amAnd Leahy cancelled the truth commission.
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/41306
April 2nd, 2009 at 11:01 amThe general was right about one thing…
It’s Congress’ responsibility to investigate and get to the bottom of this.
They are guilty too if they don’t.
April 2nd, 2009 at 11:38 amYou beat me to it and you said it best.
April 2nd, 2009 at 11:46 amI forgot to add Powell’s role in Iran Contra.
April 2nd, 2009 at 11:54 amI never have understood why people go all gaga over Powell. As far as I am concerned he is now and has always been nothing more than a right wing stooge.
Of course he won’t admit that those things are torture. If he did admit it, he would be convicting himself.
I wonder how the man sleeps at night.
Kudos to Rachel for asking him tough questions and not conducting a fluff interview.
April 2nd, 2009 at 11:58 amAgreed. Powell is in no way a hero. He continues to be a Bush regime hack and propagandist.
He lied to America to imperialize Iraq.
He is lying right now claiming he doesn’t know if war crimes are crimes. I would think a retired general would know.
What a shameful example he is setting.
April 2nd, 2009 at 12:05 pmAPEC not OPEC Says:
And Leahy cancelled the truth commission.
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/41306
I am not surprised but I am also not discouraged. I think that now is not the time to open this can of worms. The first thing we need to do is save this country from a complete implosion. I may be speaking from a selfish point of view right now, having been laid off my job last week and facing some time in the near future not only being unemployed but also having no health insurance. So, for me, fixing the economy and passing health care reform should be first on their plates.
If the Democrats were to start investigating the crimes of the Bush Administration, it would not only be a distraction from the job that needs to be done now, it would also inflame the obstructionist Republicans even more than they are already inflamed. The day the Democrats start investigating the crimes of the Bush Administration is the day that all-out war will be declared in our country. I believe that the war won’t just be in Congress, I believe it will also be on our streets as well.
April 2nd, 2009 at 12:10 pmColin Powell was an information officer during the Viet Nam war, he tried to coverup My Lai.
April 2nd, 2009 at 12:14 pmYou are not going to rehabilitate that image there Powell. You stood in front of the United Nations and lied your ass off. Anyone who thinks Powell is some kind of “hero” is a flippin moron that probably watches 24 too much.
April 2nd, 2009 at 12:30 pmApril 2nd, 2009 at 1:27 pm
Did we ever stop? The man is a war criminal ,and has been since the 70s.
April 2nd, 2009 at 1:29 pmGet a clue, doggy.
He is a man without honor.
April 2nd, 2009 at 1:47 pmI would love to see Powell argue this same sh*T in front a panel at HAGUE!
April 2nd, 2009 at 3:09 pmWaterboard Powell now, then ask him what he thinks of it!
April 2nd, 2009 at 3:11 pmSend Powell to the US Torture chamber, the Bagram airport prison, and then ask him what he thinks of it!
April 2nd, 2009 at 3:12 pmBack when Powell went before the UN and lied regarding evidence of WMDs in Iraq, I gave him the benefit of the doubt. I thought that perhaps Bush/Cheney had used him as a stooge to sell their war. I thought that Powell was unaware of his role until later, and then quietly removed himself from the Bush/Cheney cabal. In other words, I thought he was a man of honor.
His performance last night on Maddow proved that I was naive in assuming he was an honorable man. Watching him twist and turn in order to avoid answering Maddow’s questions put me in mind of a Matrix bullet dodging scene. Powell is as much a politician as any other mealy mouthed hypocrite to be found in Washington.
Powell removed any doubt as to his character. He is a LIAR.
It is time for the White House to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate wrongdoing in the Bush administration. Until this occurs, the US has NO HOPE of rebuilding their credibility as a moral leader in the world.
April 2nd, 2009 at 3:18 pmColin Powell has been trying to get his reputation back for the last 8 years – not gonna happen, dude. You sold your soul for access to power, then discovered that you were their token moderate with no power. They ditched you when were no longer useful, then and only then did you speak out.
I’ll buy that the further you got from the Bushies the more you realized your mistake, but not that your behavior or your exit were principled.
April 2nd, 2009 at 3:38 pmCYA is one of the first things you learn in officer’s school. Never leave yourself exposed, either in combat or in politics.
April 2nd, 2009 at 3:46 pmI don’t think Powell is a sociopath. He seems to be quite the enabler though. He is the first black General, and I would like that to be recognized as a significant accomplishment, even though his cooperation with the cover-up at Mai Lai was probably necessary to his promotion.
I only wish his record were better and that he had not gone to the U.N. with that bad theater performance. I thought appointing a general to the State Department was a bad move—very telling on the Bush administration. I think Powell is mortified by his performance at the U.N.
I do wish he would redeem himself.
April 2nd, 2009 at 3:48 pmHe is the first black General, and I would like that to be recognized as a significant accomplishment, even though his cooperation with the cover-up at Mai Lai was probably necessary to his promotion.
Just to set the record straight, Powell was not the first black General (Benjamin O. Davis, Sr.), or even the first black four star general (Daniel “Chappie” James, Jr.). He was the first black Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (which is effectively the top non-civilian position in the military), and clearly, the only black general most people are aware of…
April 2nd, 2009 at 4:37 pmI like Think progress. They have a lot of news others don’t have. But you have to stop doing this:
Powell: I Don’t Know Whether Torture ‘Would Be Considered Criminal’
That isn’t what he said. You do this a lot. I like to refer to your website but I have to very, very careful which stories I link to.
Powell: I Don’t Know Whether Torture ‘Would Be Considered Criminal’ is a crock. It’s not responsible and it’s hardly good journalism. If you want to be some weird version of Drudge report, fine. But if you want to be considered above that, you have to stop with the deceptive headlines. It makes you look like liars and fools.
April 2nd, 2009 at 4:49 pmI stand corrected.
April 2nd, 2009 at 5:33 pm45. and 46. sacopenapa,
only problem is that if we started doing to Powell as we did to the folks under our *AHEM* care, there will be pictures of him stacked naked / Abu Ghraib style.
I definitely don’t want to see that.!
April 2nd, 2009 at 5:50 pmLet colin say that in front of the Hague International Court.
April 2nd, 2009 at 6:47 pmFence sitters opt for the convenience. So do weasels.
So, to re-cap Colin Powell’s career: he was ordered to investigate My Lai in Nam and said: no problem. It was ANOTHER investigation that turned up the massacre.
He’s been a General and Secretary of State, yet cannot understand the plain language of the Convention Against Torture, signed by Ronald Reagan and ratified into law by Congress:
Go hind your face in shame you ignorant lout.
April 2nd, 2009 at 7:25 pmAre you telling me the lionly coward showed up without Col. Stalking Horse?
April 3rd, 2009 at 1:17 amColin Powell is an opportunistic pig. He has plenty of decorations and he speaks like he is a serious man but the fact is his legacy is ruined forever. We all liked him when we knew nothing about him. Now that we know – we can only hope that he goes to that special place in hell for socio-pathetic weirdos. To hell with Colin Powell.
April 3rd, 2009 at 3:47 amAnd how would Sphincter Powell explain that the government of the United States of America has hung numerous people from the neck until dead, dead, dead for committing acts of torture then??? Does he think that they just did it for fun and that the judges in the case ruled guilty just for kicks??? What a braindead waste case.
April 3rd, 2009 at 11:11 amOK Pat obviously senile dementia has set in. Time to see the nice young men that will need to take care of you soon.burun estetigi rent a car arac kiralama
April 18th, 2009 at 6:13 amsac ekimi