Obama administration invokes ‘state secrets’ claim to defend Bush’s wiretapping program.
Obama administration invokes ‘state secrets’ claim to defend Bush’s wiretapping program.
The Obama administration is “invoking government secrecy in defending the Bush administration’s wiretapping program” against a lawsuit brought by AT&T customers who claim “federal agents illegally intercepted their phone calls and gained access to their records.” Justice Department lawyers yesterday demanded dismissal of a lawsuit brought by the Electronic Frontier Foundation against Bush officials, arguing that the information constitutes privileged “state secrets.” Moreover, the DOJ claims the Patriot Act bars lawsuits against “illegal government surveillance unless there is ‘willful disclosure’ of the illegally intercepted communications.” The SF Chronicle reports:
Disclosure of the information sought by the customers, “which concerns how the United States seeks to detect and prevent terrorist attacks, would cause exceptionally grave harm to national security,” Justice Department lawyers said in papers filed Friday in San Francisco.
Kevin Bankston of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a lawyer for the customers, said Monday the filing was disappointing in light of the Obama presidential campaign’s “unceasing criticism of Bush-era secrecy and promise for more transparency.”
Glenn Greenwald argues, “In other words, beyond even the outrageously broad ‘state secrets’ privilege invented by the Bush administration and now embraced fully by the Obama administration, the Obama DOJ has now invented a brand new claim of government immunity, one which literally asserts that the U.S. Government is free to intercept all of your communications (calls, emails and the like) and — even if what they’re doing is blatantly illegal and they know it’s illegal — you are barred from suing them unless they ‘willfully disclose’ to the public what they have learned.”
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This is one of the biggest reasons that I hated the Bush administration. Unacceptable.
April 7th, 2009 at 9:37 amBad move, VERY bad move. Not the “change” I voted for.
April 7th, 2009 at 9:39 amIs this new? Haven’t we heard this already. I don’t think this is the first time they’ve used this. Either way, it is unacceptable.
April 7th, 2009 at 9:41 amVery disappointing. It goes to show, power always protects power.
April 7th, 2009 at 9:44 amNo information, no democracy.
April 7th, 2009 at 9:44 amKnow information, know democracy.
Thank you TP.
No candidate, however much they are hailed as a visionary, should be given a free pass on anything. From telecom immunity to FISA, Obama has made some questionable calls and 180 degree departures from his promises.
His promise of clarity and transparency does not reconcile with these actions, nor do they explain Obama’s first-day-in-office attempt to head off disclosure of this information.
Thanks for opening a dialogue, TP. As presidents have opined in the past, we need to make Obama do the right thing….
April 7th, 2009 at 9:44 am“Every conversation monitored under Bush’s warrantless domestic surveillance program is a missed opportunity to get someone who is talking with terrorists off the streets and behind bars.”
http://www.countercurrents.org…..050405.htm
http://www.madcowprod.com/06202005.html
Why? Because evidence obtained by Bush’s warrantless domestic spying program is probably not admissible in court. Convictions obtained with evidence from this program may be overturned.”
STOP RIGHT THERE! THINK.
Clearly the Bush Administration knew that to be true. So what EVIDENCE do you have that Bush actually wants potential terrorists prosecuted? How many terrorists have been CONVICTED AND SENTENCED since 9/11?
Do the math folks. Think like a criminal. The clearest explanation is often right under your nose. False flag terrorism is a TACTIC of the Mossad and the CIA. The terrorists are merely doing the bidding of this administration and their surrogates. Any actual TRIAL with TV CAMERAS and EVIDENCE would blow their entire operation.
If they really want to arrest AND CONVICT terrorists, they would absolutely follow the letter of the law. They CHOSE not to. Coincidence? NOT!
What more do you need to know?
April 7th, 2009 at 9:49 amGood Greetings TP
I agree with hanshiro the antlionon this point. You are doing the right thing bringing this news to our attention. It is wrong and we all need to convey our disapproval of the President’s actions on this matter.
Bush did it and it was wrong. If Obama does it too, its still wrong!
Keep up the great work TP and thanks.
April 7th, 2009 at 9:51 amBoo, hiss. Please President Obama, don’t go Bush/Cheney on us.
-GSD
April 7th, 2009 at 9:52 amOkay, so the Israelis have the phone lines over at the White House, the Defense Department, the Justice Department, and, for all we know, your local dogcatcher’s office bugged to the max. So they have the capability to know where and when practically every phone call in the US, and large sections of the rest of the world, is made, and to whom. As fantastic as it sounds, given the advance of technology and the reputation of the Mossad, I’m willing to believe it. What’s really alarming, however, is that, as Cameron reports:
“On a number of cases, suspects that they had sought to wiretap and survey immediately changed their telecommunications processes. They started acting much differently as soon as those supposedly secret wiretaps went into place.”
The implications of this stunning news go far beyond my original contention: that the Israelis had foreknowledge of the 9/11 attacks and simply failed to let us know the details. For it all depends on the intended target of the wiretaps: was it the Israelis, or Bin Laden’s agents? If the former were acting differently after wiretaps were put in place, it means only that the Israelis were using their sources and methods to protect their own: if the latter, it means the Israelis were using their sources and methods to protect the Bin Ladenites. That is a possibility no one – including me – wants to contemplate, and, in all truthfulness, I must confess I cannot believe it. I am forced to concede, however, that, given what we now know, it is possible. Until and unless the government comes clean, we won’t know for sure.
INVESTIGATE THE ISRAELI CONNECTION
April 7th, 2009 at 9:53 amYou think these could be those Bush/Cheney Holdovers we read about the other day?
April 7th, 2009 at 9:53 amVery disappointing. As Uncle Ho says, not the change we voted for.
April 7th, 2009 at 9:53 amFaulty logic at best.
April 7th, 2009 at 9:54 amWe have to keep pressing. I keep telling people, Nov 4 has to be the beginning, not the end. And where is congress? Inst about time the flex some coequal branch muscle?
April 7th, 2009 at 9:55 amI think a fundamental problem here is that “the Government” has, some time in the murky past, embraced a concept of being separate from “the people”.
An elitism of its own, very similar to the mindset found in military personel (there’s “brothers in arms” and there’s “civilians”; and “civilian” is often (generally) derogatory).
The fact of the matter is that every piece of information that is not absolutley necessary to security needs to be public domain.
And it is a vast and easily abuseable tool, which means that it should have MORE oversight and transparency, not less.
It just seems that there is something MORE going on in the background here… something that perhaps we are not even aware of, which is what is being ‘protected’, instead of protecting the liberty of the people of this country. Exactly WHO or WHAT is being protected by not releasing the information — and by not ending this program?
April 7th, 2009 at 9:56 amI guess proud won’t mind registering all his guns with with governement then. I mean, if he’s not going to do anything wrong with them, then why worry about registration?
April 7th, 2009 at 9:58 am10.Proud Says: Excellent call by Obama. It is very simple, if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about
Then post your IP address, better yet, post your real name instead of hiding behind a moniker. Aren’t you “proud” of what you’re posting?
Let’s see who you really are, if you’ve nothing to hide, ‘proud.’
April 7th, 2009 at 9:59 amCould this be a strategic move?
Who is the most afraid of being spied on now?
Would it be possible to play this in a way that will get a SCOTUS ruling against the existing law?
It doesn’t take very much tin foil to make a hat for a dragonfly!
April 7th, 2009 at 10:00 amMeet the new boss.
Same as the old boss.
This is not the change I believe in.
April 7th, 2009 at 10:01 amOK, I’m going to play devil’s advocate for a moment here. I’m not entirely sure that this is a bad thing.
It is the role of the Department of Justice to enforce the law, and the government’s argument is based solely on statutory law – the Patriot Act, the Wiretap Act, the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, FISA, etc. It seems to me that Justice is doing exactly what it is required to do under the laws that were passed by Congress.
After eight years of a President who felt free to pick and choose which laws he wanted to obey, and who had his minions write torturous legal opinions determining exactly how the law could be bent, I’m not going to immediately condemn a President and an AG who is now trying to follow the law to the letter – even if that law is ill-conceived.
It’s now up to the judge to decide the merits of the White House argument, and it’s up to Congress to repeal some of the provisions of the Patriot Act that allow, or even require, abuse of “state secrets.”
April 7th, 2009 at 10:03 amdamn.
well, there goes one of my arguments in my new letter-to-editor…
April 7th, 2009 at 10:06 am(emphasis mine)
Good. Then you’re on board with the Leahy Truth Commission idea, hm?
After all, if the Bush administration has nothing to hide, then they have nothing to worry about.
April 7th, 2009 at 10:06 amNot even investigating the bush admin. for the crimes that are known to have been committed is unforgivable.
April 7th, 2009 at 10:07 amIt’s like okay, we’re going to create a new law that says all of the law breaking that we’ve done, isn’t against the law anymore. There, problem solved. See ya later, and good luck with the whole economy thing.
Proud says: It is very simple, if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about.
Well, that is a very simple statement, meant to sum up a complex situation.
But, if THAT is your ruling in the matter, then:
Why not allow the police and FBI to regularly search your home and vehicle, just out of curiosity (say on a weekly or monthly basis)?
If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about.
Why not allow them to put microphones and cameras in your workplace, stores, even your home?
If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about.
Why don’t we have checkpoints set up regularly that randomly inspect vehicles and those in them?
If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about.
Oh, I know that I am arguing the slippery slope, however your argument is limited to that one sentence, and if THAT ONE SENTENCE is the precident to be applied, then this is not as much a fallacious slippery slope as it is legitimate questions… as, one could argue quite easily, that any or all of those measures I listed WOULD CERTAINLY reduce various crimes considerably, and in some cases improve the response time to crimes and accidents. I will welcome your honest answers to these issues — because
“If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about.”
Who needs civil liberties when you have nothing to hide, eh?
April 7th, 2009 at 10:08 amRather than blame President Obama, let’s remember that this comes from the Justice Department, and their analysis is based on the laws currently in force… namely, the PATRIOT Act which was not Obama’s doing at all. “[T]he Patriot Act bars lawsuits against “illegal government surveillance unless there is ‘willful disclosure’ of the illegally intercepted communications.” Let’s keep petitioning our legislators to repeal that ugly neocon Act. We are (at least in theory) a nation of laws…
April 7th, 2009 at 10:09 amchiroptera toasterhead you bring up a valid point. I’ll be watching how this plays out. For now, I’m disgusted.
April 7th, 2009 at 10:11 amDamnable action, we see that the Constitution still means nothing, I would say he is covering his a__ for the future.
April 7th, 2009 at 10:11 amHellloo Proud, not sure of your point. The majority of the GITMO detainee have nothing to hide; wrong place at the wrong time. Yet look at the transparency with which our government has treated them.
April 7th, 2009 at 10:13 amDisclosure of the information sought by the customers, “which concerns how the United States seeks to detect and prevent terrorist attacks, would cause exceptionally grave harm to national security,”
BIG STEAMING PILE OF SHIT.
Nobody’s asking for “how”, just when, where and why.
April 7th, 2009 at 10:13 amFCUK THE PATRIOT ACT (a.k.a. the Treason Act) – Cheney’s ultimate “fcuk you” to American society.
Proud sez:
Then you should have NO objection when the US Army kicks in the door to your home and ransack it without a warrant.
April 7th, 2009 at 10:13 amAfter all…. If you have nothing to hide…..
Excellent call by Obama. It is very simple, if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about. I am just excited to see Keith Olbermann do a special comment tonight railing against Obama as he did with Bush on a nightly basis.
see i think its a dangerous precedent.
who dictates whether or not i have something to hide?
sure i may have nothing to hide now, but situations change and certain people can become targeted by the gov’t, a la japanese internment in WWII, this sort of wiretapping creates a system for a potentially corrupted government to spy on its citizens. it shouldn’t be in place because it sets a bad precedent.
i am not particularly confident in my governments ability to avoid making terrible decisions. the track record simply isn’t there. warrantless wiretapping simply makes it easier for an administration to be corrupt.
April 7th, 2009 at 10:16 amchiroptera toasterhead
husseintiger Says:
Excellent points – particularly that these are issues created by the last administration, and this administration is simply following the laws already in place.
But to have these backasswards laws and such repealed or modified is necessary, and our voices need to be heard on these issues.
Good for them. They can follow the guidelines in place, which indicates a basic level of competence not displayed by the last administration. Now fix the F#cked laws and regulations.
April 7th, 2009 at 10:16 amBut apparently, Proud is confident in the government’s ability to make good judgments.
Rather an odd position for a conservative, wouldn’t you say? Isn’t government the problem, not the solution?
April 7th, 2009 at 10:20 amCageyCretin @ 10:08 am
very well said.
April 7th, 2009 at 10:20 amhusseintiger Says:
“Rather than blame President Obama, let’s remember that this comes from the Justice Department, and their analysis is based on the laws currently in force… namely, the PATRIOT Act which was not Obama’s doing at all”.
Sorry but that perspective is very naive. President Obama is a Constitutional lawyer. He would know to challenge the Patriot’s Act rather than to enforce it, if he were opposed to it.
April 7th, 2009 at 10:21 amSenator Obama voted for telecom immunity, after promising to vote against. AT&T sponsored the Democratic National Convention, amongst other large corporations.
The Energy reception kept media away from the event, even arresting an ABC producer and his cameraman. The DNC refused to give names of attendees to the media.
President Obama’s Justice Department drops charges against corrupt Sen. Ted Stevens. Now, they defend the Bush spying program by claiming “state secrets.” James Comey esentially told us it was illegal.
April 7th, 2009 at 10:23 amAs long as they are tracking Cheney,Rove,Hannity,Beck,Bachman and Gingrich, I’m ok with it.
April 7th, 2009 at 10:24 amCageyCretin Says:
chiroptera toasterhead
husseintiger Says:
Excellent points – particularly that these are issues created by the last administration, and this administration is simply following the laws already in place.
But to have these backasswards laws and such repealed or modified is necessary, and our voices need to be heard on these issues.
Good for them. They can follow the guidelines in place, which indicates a basic level of competence not displayed by the last administration. Now fix the F#cked laws and regulations.
April 7th, 2009 at 10:16 am
____________
Absolutely. Couldn’t agree more. The definition of “state secret” must be more narrowly-tailored so that the government cannot issue a blanket declaration of secrecy covering broad concepts such as wiretapping.
I understand that there is a certain need to protect certain state secrets, to protect classified information. It is this state secrecy privilege which was supposed to protect Valerie Plame, for example. But to apply it so broadly as to include the blatantly obvious – i.e. the mere fact that the government intercepts communications – is moronic. We need to pressure Congress to roll this back.
April 7th, 2009 at 10:27 amNashoba nowa Says: Damnable action, we see that the Constitution still means nothing, I would say he is covering his a__ for the future.
He’s always behaved legally and responsibly, so I don’t think he’ll need an out. I disagreed with his FISA vote, but so far, it’s the only time I disagreed with him where he hasn’t proven me wrong. I’m with those willing to watch and see.
April 7th, 2009 at 10:27 amThis is worse than Bush.
April 7th, 2009 at 10:27 amI feel betrayed and angry
The first 2 1/2 months of the Obama administration has (for me) ranged between underwhelming and disgust.
April 7th, 2009 at 10:28 amDon’t be disappointed with this decision, I’m sure the GOP made a real nasty threat it’ll come out in the wash sooner or later. All of this is from the Bush and Cheney Patriot Act. I’m not surprise by this and it won’t be the last, it just proves how Bush-n-Goons really shitted on America’s freedom. I’m just curious on how the Faux News scoundrels will report this?
April 7th, 2009 at 10:29 amNo wonder telecom immunity passed:
http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/expend.php?cmte=C00109017&Cycle=2008
Scan the list.
April 7th, 2009 at 10:29 amgus smith Says:
Sorry but that perspective is very naive. President Obama is a Constitutional lawyer. He would know to challenge the Patriot’s Act rather than to enforce it, if he were opposed to it.
April 7th, 2009 at 10:21 am
___________
Yes, but it’s not the executive’s role to challenge the law it is duty-bound to enforce. That’s the role of the plaintiff, in bringing a case against the government. What DOJ is doing here is putting the issue, very broadly, in the hands of the judge.
This will set a huge precedent however the judge rules, and I’m cautiously optimistic. If the judge rules against dismissal, this will open up many other “state secret” cases to public scrutiny.
April 7th, 2009 at 10:31 amgus smith — good point (and yes, I can be naive, thanks for pointing that out). We could go to whitehouse.gov and leave a barrage of messages along the lines of what you wrote. He can “challenge” it using the bully pulpit and by sending DOJ lawyers to the Supreme Court to petition for overturning the Patriot Act (good luck with that, given the majority of Supremes are… you know…).
April 7th, 2009 at 10:32 amI know that the tendency is to cut obama some slack because he just got in office. Go back and look at his votes compared to his rhetoric. He voted for tightened bankruptcy, FISA loosening, and war funding. Since he has been in office, he appointed finance people that are so embedded in the banking industry that he can’t see anything else. The auto makers (who produce real goods), and the workers in that industry do not get any love from him; his actions indicate that he wants to break the auto workers unions. He is continuing the state secrets excuses for hiding whatever it is that they are doing. Apparently there is total confusion in the legal parts of the government because they seem to be planning to arrest the lawyer for Binyam Mohammed for revealing to the President secret contents of a document describing the torture (which the US does not do) of Binyam. In Florida, a legal resident has been acquitted of criminal charges, but the government is going to deport him based on those charges.
I’m still waiting for the CHANGE that is supposed to happen.
April 7th, 2009 at 10:36 amProud Says
April 7th, 2009 at 9:52 am
Excellent call by Obama. It is very simple, if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about.
____________________________________________________________
Really? You don’t value concepts like privacy and personal freedom? You would have LOVED living in Nazi Germany under Hitler or the Soviet Union under Stalin.
April 7th, 2009 at 10:40 amReally? If he let them declare bankruptcy all the union contracts would be void as would the pension benefits?
It’s really enlightening that so many progressives believe the “facts” as they are being presented by the right wing and by trolls who pretend to be progressives to make their propaganda more palpable.
April 7th, 2009 at 10:44 amIf nothing else President Obama is shrewd. Is it possible that he is invoking this claim and inviting a court challenge? When the Obama administration loses, this would set a precedence for investigating the Bush administration. If this or some similar tactic is behind this, I will be patient. However, I want there to be a change in this soon.
April 7th, 2009 at 10:44 amProud Said: Excellent call by Obama. It is very simple, if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about.
If there is nothing to hide whats the point of wiretapping? You do realize that even harmless communications can be used to harass and follow you? To play head games with you and your family?
April 7th, 2009 at 10:48 amWhen Obama signed the wiretap immunity act his people implied that it was so poorly worded that it was better to sign it before it was rewritten and so at least FISA would start working again. Maybe he does want somebody to challenge the law.
April 7th, 2009 at 10:50 amStill waiting for the ‘Change’.!!
The most important department ,the Defense Department is till run by Bush people.
Not a big change when Obama made the war his biggest issue.
And now Obama is following Bush’s footsteps,replacing NeoCons by NeoLibs working for the same AIPAC.like Dennis Ross,Rahm Emanuel and others.
Change you dreamed of,but it is not there!!
April 7th, 2009 at 10:54 amIt is choices like this that are going to make Obama a one term President! He make score a couple of points in the Cons Party but even if he did EVERYTHING they wanted for the next 4 years they would vote against him in the next election. He needs to do the things he promised to HIS voters, those that gave him the job. Where is the transparency???!!! The promised Transparency is GONE, or never existed! This continues the hidden politicking the treasury department has been doing with the “Bail Out”.
I really thought he was a man of change but he is hiding something from the people of America (actually, the WORLD)and we deserve to know what!
April 7th, 2009 at 10:54 amPresident Obama,
When you say things like, “No one is above the law” and “Sunlight is the best disinfectant,” it has to mean something.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:00 amDead on Doodlebug Shayne! I distinctly remember this conversation and I suspect that you are correct. As stated so astutely in some of the above posts, it is not Obama’s job to challenge the law. He knows that the law as written is clearly sloppy and unConstitutional and a legitimate challenge could render the whole thing moot. As to Proud’s drivel, it might surprise and confuse you to know that Olbermann has ALLREADY called out Obama in a Special Comment back in June of 2008:
http://crooksandliars.com/node/21532
You see Proud, progressives are not as blindly devoted to their elected officials as you hive minded regressives. We’ll call bull shit when we see it, no matter the political affiliation of the source you poor misguided fool.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:05 amUncle Ho, don’t be upset remember all this started with Bush and his Goon Squad. There’s going to be tons of shit from the Bush era that will come up, this is just the tip of the iceberg. But I do agree with Obama for not wanting to revisit the past it’s like looking back into HELL. Blame the GOP Obstructionist for this move that’s for sure. Let’s see if any of Obama’s nominee’s get picked?
THIS IS WHY I HATED THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION I HOPE THEY ALL BURN IN HELL!!!!
April 7th, 2009 at 11:07 amValid points all.
I am concerned re: the continual assertion of the state secrets privilege. It has been abused so many times in the past to cover-up crimes in which the govt. has been complicit.
At this current stage, I will give Obama a little slack; although I was very angry re: his vote on FISA.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:14 amPlease recall that NO President except George Washington has EVER returned to the State and the People ANY power which they, as president, arrogated to address an exigent necessity.
TO imagine that “thePrez” would be different is lunacy, errant madness, and unreal unto delusional…
April 7th, 2009 at 11:16 amPresident Obama is a grave disappointment for the following reasons:
1. The Geithner Summers plan, which is a potential $2 Trillion giveaway of taxpayer money to Wall Street’s wealthiest and well connected.
2. The Afghanistan “surge.”
3. Shielding torturers and Constitution shredders from justice.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:16 amNot good. I cannot give Obama a little slack because he is in a sense protecting the Bush administration on this and on any war crimes committed by Bushco. Sorry, this angers me and tells me that the president is a puppet to those who really run our government. It seems it is the presidents goal to hide from the heinous crimes and lie of the last president.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:19 amto hide the…
April 7th, 2009 at 11:19 amI totally agree with you stewarjt!
April 7th, 2009 at 11:21 amCould someone clarify a few points? I would particularly like to hear from any of those who are pinning this directly on the President.
Is the President directly in charge of the DOJ, making all of the key decisions?
If not the president, then who is (are) the person (people) actually operating and deciding actions for the DOJ?
Is the DOJ a part of the Executive, Legislative, or Judicial branch? If not the Executive, how is this DIRECTLY tied to the President?
Did the President sign an executive order or such in relation to this judgement?
I am seeing all “President Obama’s DOJ”, which is accurate, but misleading — unless the president is directly ordering these actions by the DOJ.
Let’s have the names of the people in charge of the DOJ who are the motivators and propogators of these activities (e.g. defense of the wiretapping), and not just a dishonest and simplified “President Obama’s DOJ”, as if it were run in a unitary manner by the president.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:25 ambonat says:
If it was wrong under chimpy-in-chief, it’s just as wrong now under Obama. Covering up crimes is not the way to move forward, it’s continuing bad policies of the past.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:26 amA Patriotic Anopheles Acting Says:
You see Proud, progressives are not as blindly devoted to their elected officials as you hive minded regressives. We’ll call bull shit when we see it, no matter the political affiliation of the source you poor misguided fool.
But… but… but…. he’s not on 24/7 screaming and cussing like a rabid… like a rabid… Limbaugh. Everyone should convert immediately to republicanism, hail Limbaugh. We can’t be responsible for what Olbermann said a few months ago — that don’t count. We righties don’t do history, and stuff. He said it THEN, but WHAT’S HE SAYING NOW.
Gleeb, glub, dubba dubb, 336, 66 uytuy mme, me, me , me, mine. (that’s secret Chuck Norris republican code).
April 7th, 2009 at 11:30 amLet us not forget that one of the many major issues with the Bush Administration was the concept of the unitary executive, where the executive micromanaged any and every thing it wanted to. This was ALSO wrong, and for the current president to continue the practice would be just as wrong.
Now, that all said, I will repeat that these F#CKED laws (like the patriot act and telecom immunity) need to be repealed, or we will, some time in the future, merely see a continuation of where Bush and Cheney left off.
Curious — has Cheney been seen lurking around DOJ offices recently?
April 7th, 2009 at 11:36 amFrom Truthout:
Katharine Gun was the young British secret service officer who was arrested for leaking an illegal US spy operation against members of the UN Security Council debating the decision for war. The operation, mounted by the NSA, targeted six nations whose vote for a preemptive strike was considered essential to winning broad international support for war.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:39 amIf Obama & his Justice Dept. keep this up, even FOX News will start critizing…torture? Unlawful warrant-less wiretaps! Who knows, maybe they’ll start criticizing the Iraq War!
April 7th, 2009 at 11:40 amCageyCretin: the DOJ is part of the Executive Branch, and the Attorney General, who heads up the DOJ, is a member of the presidential cabinet. As such, the DOJ/Atty. Genl. answers directly to the President. Therefore, it’s just as accurate to say “Obama’s DOJ” as it was to say “Bush’s DOJ” when that department was violating the US Constitution.
Ultimately, as Obama has said many times already, the buck stops in the oval office with respect to the Executive Branch. If this is a DOJ policy that had no input from or clearance by Obama himself (or at least Rahm Emmanuel on behalf of the president), then I’d expect Eric Holder to be fired immediately. Since that hasn’t happened, this is clearly an Obama-approved initiative.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:43 amI really do think that President Obama needs to share with us his legal process when he makes decisions like this. There must be something there that he thinks needs to be protected other than the Bush Administration. When he makes decisions like this and doesn’t explain why he did it, the end result is making him look like he’s no better than Bush in this area.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:44 amWell, I’ll answer at least one of my own questions; the DOJ is a part of the Executive branch. Their mission statement is:
To enforce the law and defend the interests of the United States according to the law; to ensure public safety against threats foreign and domestic; to provide federal leadership in preventing and controlling crime; to seek just punishment for those guilty of unlawful behavior; and to ensure fair and impartial administration of justice for all Americans.
However, I need to add questions:
What branch is in charge of creating laws, or amending/revoking laws? I could be wrong, but I do not think that it is the executive — it is the legislative branch, I do believe.
That being the case, the DOJ must enforce the existing laws, until the proper authorities amend those laws.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:47 amProud Says:
Excellent call by Obama. It is very simple, if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about. I am just excited to see Keith Olbermann do a special comment tonight railing against Obama as he did with Bush on a nightly basis.
Talk to the people at Gitmo who had nothing to hide because they did nothing wrong. They were simply sold to our government by neighbors and war lords. And if our government can do that in Iraq, what’s to say that they won’t do it here? It’s a very slippery slope we don’t want to go down.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:48 amIf this is supposed to lead to challenge in court, then why isn’t the challenge lined up and happening now? Why aren’t the courts and the Congress racing to see which body gets to dismantle the horrid Patriot Act? I can think of no legitimate excuse for not investigating the crimes of Bushco, again why no action? Torture was committed and torture is a crime. As our simple friend says, if Bushco has nothing to hide then they have nothing to fear. Bring on the investigations, the court challenges to unconstitutional laws, the prosecutions.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:53 amhttp://rawstory.com/images/new/obamabush20081110.jpg
Mirror image or two sides of the same coin???
April 7th, 2009 at 11:55 amWrite President Obama at http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/ and let him know what you think about this action. I wrote and said that he really does need to explain himself, otherwise I will have to agree that he is no better than Bush when it comes to defending our privacy.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:56 amThe Ctenocephalides Dogfather Says:
Fair enough on those points. Thanks for the response.
I have issue with the comparison to Bush. However, that in and of itself is not a tacit approval of the current president in any and all matters — I just do NOT see any real parallels, or not sufficient ones to justify such a one-to-one comparison, as many are trying to make.
What concerns me the most (apart from the obvious unconstitutional laws involved here) is that the brunt of many of these attacks are directed at the president, and less so (or in many cases not at all at) the bad laws/policies themselves. We are still three months in to the presidency. I think the president IS walking and chewing gum at the same time, but it would be impossible for him to take a solid handle of every issue (though I think this one is a huge one). But, mainly, this is being used (as so many other such instances) by those who hate President Obama to poison the well on him — to make common a discourse that tears him down by assosciating him intimately with these Bush-era policies.
For my part, I pretty much ignored Bush until 9/11 — I figurd he was an incompetent, but not dangerous or traitorous. And he had my support for a short time after 9/11, until I noticed that the tragedy was being used in an opportunistic manner to gain political footing, to advance partisan (and harmful) policies, and to invade a soverign nation. Bush had almost 2 full years before I even started to criticise him. And I certainly didn’t vote for him. So, i thinkt hat the man I voted for, while need ing to be observed and reminded of WHY he won the election, deserves an adequate amount of time to handle the overwhelming (and DEEPLY POLITICISED) issues facing him. Not saying you are guilty of such, just saying that that is where I am coming from. — proper dissention, not Republican brand dissention (”He hasn’t taken the oath yet, but he is certainly the worst president ever” malarky).
And, on a side note, I see a LOT of concern here on this thread, if you get my drift.
April 7th, 2009 at 12:00 pm“State secrets”, my ass. Let’s recap.
The Bush administration asked the phone companies to conduct warrantless wiretapping on its behalf, claiming FISA was “too restrictive.”
This was a lie. If they needed to spy on Joe Mohammed, they could have begun wiretapping * immediately *. The ONLY restriction imposed by FISA is that they would have to obtain a warrant within 72 hours. The reason for this restriction is to prevent exactly what happened under Bush: indiscriminate surveillance with no oversight or accountability.
The phone companies claimed they were “just following orders” which any student of history can tell you is a piss-poor defense against charges of criminal activity. The phone companies, rather than consulting their armies of lawyers, who could have told them right away that this was a really BAD idea (not to mention illegal) decided that their best option was to kiss Bush’s ass as hard and as fast as they could. AT&T even went as far as constructing a facility specifically designed monitor telephone communications and to help the feds carry out this illegal activity.
So HOW the information was collected is no “secret” at all. What the government wants to keep secret is WHO and how many people were being spied on.
The Bush administration sought and was given the power to spy on large numbers of people with no oversight whatsoever. The advantages of being able to collect private information on your political opponents is pretty obvious. I doubt many “terrorists” were monitored at all.
The problem with secrecy is that it protects indiscriminately. There are many things that need to be kept secret in order to protect a nation from those who would harm it. But secrecy is also invoked to silence critics, to protect people whose crappy judgment caused embarrassing colossal screw-ups and to conceal outright criminal activity. THAT is how it’s being used here. This is not about secrecy: it’s about ass covering.
Up yours, Obama. This is NOT ok.
April 7th, 2009 at 12:01 pmWhy not have the court challenge prepared and ready to launch the same time as the Pres. takes action to enforce existing law?
April 7th, 2009 at 12:01 pmBilbo Hussein Baggins Says:
Thanks for the link — I will do similar.
April 7th, 2009 at 12:03 pmBilbo Hussein Baggins Says:
I really do think that President Obama needs to share with us his legal process when he makes decisions like this. There must be something there that he thinks needs to be protected other than the Bush Administration. When he makes decisions like this and doesn’t explain why he did it, the end result is making him look like he’s no better than Bush in this area.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:44 am
The rationale behind the decision is explained fully in the papers filed by the DOJ lawyers: http://www.eff.org/files/filenode/jewel/jewelmtdobama.pdf
In short, DNI and NSA determined that information critical to the plaintiff’s case would reveal classified information if made public. I believe the Department of Justice has no choice BUT to argue for the case to be dismissed.
Am I concerned with the wide-ranging application of state secrets as a barrier to justice? Absoutely. But I’d be just as concerned with an executive branch who decides that it’s okay to reveal classified information whenever it feels it – say, to punish a Valerie Plame.
April 7th, 2009 at 12:04 pmThis is wrong, we need to send a clear message to our elected officials and spread the word around the internet that this cannot go on anymore!
We elected President Obama because we wanted an accountable and transparent government. Not more Bush secrecy.
Please guys, spread the word.
E-mail Huffingtonpost.com and tell them to make this a story on their blog!
April 7th, 2009 at 12:13 pmI believe this is part of President Obama’s strategy. I’m not sure it is the best or if it will work but this President presents himself as being very much for the people unlike the last one.
I think the biggest error President Obama has made so far is not getting rid of the heads of the banks and banking institutions. The economy is President Obama’s biggest and most important challenge and I believe it was a tremendous opportunity to hold accountable those that allowed the bad loans to be passed off as top notch investments. He should have all their books opened up and the scale of the economic problem laid bare. The full scale will rear itself at some point and it is for the best to have it come out sooner than later.
April 7th, 2009 at 12:27 pmU haven’t read the other comments here yet, just throwing in my immediate 2 cents at this point…
I can think of several expedient reasons why Obama and his administration would take this position, but ONLY FOR THE TIME BEING (we haven’t even hit the arbitrary ‘100 days’ yet!).
I haven’t yet read enough about the arguments for or against this position from reliable sources of fact and opinion to offer any substantial arguments of my own that I could reasonably defend–but my initial reaction is that Obama’s position is seriously flawed.
April 7th, 2009 at 12:29 pmIf his position on this is absolute, then it is horribly wrong IMHO.
Outstanding posts all,..Thank you Bilbo for the link, I will put it to good critical use…
First, Good morning youngster’s….Do you remember President Obama voted for FISA?…Remember also he said he wanted us to put his feet to the fire if he was out of line…I’m gonna build a big fire..Witchs are good at that….
Instead of ranting here I intend to question and be very critical of his appointment’s and large error’s as I see them…Letting big issues and old law breaker’s slide is not working for me…Do as you choose….
Sorry for interupting your thread, I will now go back to hugging trees and watching Eagles…P.B. & J
April 7th, 2009 at 12:57 pmWitch1 Says:
I’m gonna build a big fire..Witchs are good at that….
Witches are also good to build bridges out of….
hug some eagles and watch some trees… sounds fun :)
April 7th, 2009 at 1:09 pm.
Dear Proud,
@#10, you said IF you have nothing to hide blah, blah, blah…
… Care to publish your address and phone number?
Most people would care to hide that information on public sites like a blog. Why is this? What do you have to hide, then?
Do you dress to not hide aspects of yourself that you wish not to share with other people?
How about your SSN? Publish that information, or is it too personal?
Because, after all, we are talking about personal information being taken from us WITHOUT a court order…
… In violation of U.S. Law.
.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:42 pm.
misscoleopteramolly @#48,
This is why they are Proud to say, “I HOPE HE FAILS!”
.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:46 pmralph @#23,
Leahy scrapped that commission…
… Due to lack of support.
It made news last week…
… But never made the news(if you get the drift).
Because we all know, an ill informed Nation…
April 7th, 2009 at 1:51 pm… Can spend their extra time watching Idols and Stars on their boob-tube!
.
C-H-A-N-G-E happens when the People act to make it happen.
“Be the change you seek from this world.” ~ Gandhi
… And nameplates and underwear are NOT the “CHANGE” America seeks.
.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:52 pm.
Glen Greenwald has a rundown…
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/04/06/obama/index.html
.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:54 pm.
R E M E M B E R:
THEY(sic) HATE US FOR OUR FREEDOMS, OUR WAY OF LIFE…
… And so THEY(sic) have lobbied, debated, and signed legislation to undermine core basic principles and tenets of the Constitution of the U.S.A. thus altering our way of life!
.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:59 pmAs long as it’s the law, this administration will uphold it, they are not about to do anything illegal.
So, get the law changed, then you get the change.
And I also think that they are taking their time, dealing with more pressing matters (like the economy and the wars) and then we will see a dedicated move to prosecution of BushCo.
It’s pretty hard to prosecute when you can’t even get your assistant DOJ people approved, so they still have to work around the republican opposition. Recess appointments are probably how it will have to happen.
Patience…why do we get all huffy when the R’s cry out that Obama is getting nothing done (after a few months in office) then, when it is something we want, we cry the same?
April 7th, 2009 at 2:00 pmi haven’t read the whole thread, so forgive me if this comment is duplicative: any chance the obama administrsation is keeping this argument in order to get a ruling on it and preclude future presidents from using this crappy logic?
in other words, if obama dropped the defense, no court would rule on it until the next president decides to try to use it. if, instead, he perseveres and the court rules against him, it’s a dead defense.
any chance?
please?
April 7th, 2009 at 2:03 pmMany thanks Max for the links, great reads…Blessings
April 7th, 2009 at 2:10 pmTHE ‘HONEY MOON’ IS OFFICIALLY OVER!!!!!
WE CAN ALL SEE HOW QUICLY MR. OBAMA HAS “CHANGED”!!!!
IT ALWAYS HAPPENS OVER AND OVER AGAIN… A POLITICIAN GET VOTED IN FOR HIS LEFTIST DISCOURSE, BUT AS SOON AS HE/SHE GET IN, THE DISCOURSE ‘CHANGES’ TO THE RIGHT OF PEOPLES WILL!
MR. OBAMA I CAN SEE THAT “THE CHANGE CAME TO WASHINGTON’!!!!
YOU CHANGED FROM SOMEONE WHO ‘WAS’ GOING TO DO GREAT THINGS TO THE COUNTRY AND THE WORLD INTO A ‘PELOSI LIKE’ THING!
YOU SAID YOU WOULD END THE WARS INSTEAD ESCALATING IT!
YOU SAID YOUR GOVERNMENT YOU BE MARKED BY ‘TRANSPARENCY’, YET YOUR ADMINISTRATION IN COURT HAS ARGUE THE SAME BS AS THE PREVIOUS CRIMINAL ADMINISTRATION DID TO STOP THE CASE OF TORTURE TO GO ON, THE WIRETAPPING PROCESS, AND AHFEGANISTAN IS YOUR WAR NOW, YOU ARE THE COMANDER IN CHIEF! SOON YOU WILL ALSO OWN THE WAR CRIMES OF THE PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATION!
YES YOU SPEAK VERY WELL, YOU HAVE A PRESENCE, ETC, BUT YOU WILL BE JUDGED BY YOUR ACTION AND INACTION REGARDING THE RULE OF LAW AND THE USA’S WAR CRIMINALS.
YOU ARE AS MUCH OF A DISAPOINTMENT AS THE DEMOCRATS IN CONGRESS IN 2006! YOU ARE A FAKE!
I AM EMBARESSED THAT I EVER SUPPORTED YOU! YOU ARE A DISGRACE.
Many in this blog will call me a troll etc… they are still blinded by the post kicking out of ofice the war criminals Bush/Chenney… and still ‘charmed’ by the fact that Obama can actually articulate words, unlike Bush for 8 years…
April 7th, 2009 at 3:24 pmBut Obama’s actions so far have been a slap in the face of anyone who had hoped for meaningful “CHANGE”.
Go on Mr. Obama! Rebrand the War to sell it to the American people! Change mercenary army from BlackWater/Xe to Canopy! Continue to Antagonize Pakistan with murderous and coward Drones attacks! The are your crimes!
As for myself, I’ll will forever opose colonial Wars for oil pipelines, dispite the continuation of ‘Al-Queida/Taliban’ lies! 9/11 LIES! Imperialims and deceitfull politicians!
Which 1!
April 7th, 2009 at 3:37 pmI Agree! Thanks Max! He always has good links!
NEW BOSS SAME AS THE OLD BOSS,YOU KOOL AID DRINKERS SHOULD GO TO A THIRD,FOURTH OR EVEN A FIFTH PARTY,THESE TWO NEOCON,ZIONIST PARTY’S ARE A JOKE.SUCKERS…..
April 7th, 2009 at 5:42 pmThe next layer of the onion is all Obama’s.
Guantanamo Attorneys Face Possible Prison Time for Letter to Obama Detailing Client’s Allegations of Torture
…an unusual development in the case of Binyam Mohamed, the British resident recently released after seven years in US custody, where he claims he was repeatedly tortured, first in a secret CIA prison, later at Guantanamo. Binyam Mohamed’s lawyers, Clive Stafford Smith and Ahmad Ghappour, could face six months in a US prison, The Guardian newspaper revealed last week, because of a letter they sent to President Obama explaining their client’s allegations of torture by US agents.
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/4/7/guantanamo_attorneys_face_possible_prison_time
April 7th, 2009 at 5:42 pmREMEMBER OBAMA IS ONLY O SHILL FOR THE NEW WORLD ORDER.. OBAMA DECEPTION.WATCH IT…..
April 7th, 2009 at 5:42 pmApparently the boys in the Pentagon are as skilled as Mukasey’s team prosecuting Ted Stevens.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/libertycentral/2009/apr/02/torture-human-rights/print
April 7th, 2009 at 6:26 pmI am absolutely heartbroken. My hopes have been dashed. I feel like I’ve been had. This was the one thing from the Bush administration that was so unforgivable, so objectionable .. After working so hard to support Obama I feel such a let down and basically can no longer believe what he says. If he stick to this decision I will absolutely not support him again.
What can we do to change this situation? Any ideas??
April 7th, 2009 at 8:56 pmI’m extremely disappointed, but what I’m hoping is that there’s an underlying reason for this decision that we’ll find out about later.
April 7th, 2009 at 10:06 pmMaybe we need to organize a march on Washington or gather signatures. Do some sort of grassroots support gathering?
April 7th, 2009 at 10:07 pmFolks, I’m upset over this decision but I suggest that we all wait and see what’s behind this ’state secrets’ claim. President Obama and the Justice Dept. may have to take other routes. I’m not trying to make excuses for Obama but I believe there’s more than meets the eye on this situation. They’re still trying to untangle red tape from GTMO, the economy, 2 wars and goodness knows what else. And it hasn’t been 100 days! Hang on folks, change takes TIME!
April 7th, 2009 at 10:18 pmAnother thing, most Americans are so worried about the economy that they’re not concerned about Bush/Cheney/Rove, etc. being prosecuted for war crimes. We might have to make them concerned. Leahy couldn’t get 100,000 signatures to support a truth commission – so what does that say about a majority of Americans caring about the prosecution of these war criminals?
April 7th, 2009 at 10:32 pmObama turn out to be just another ‘boy’ for the oli/military/helth Corporations… What a Shame!
April 7th, 2009 at 11:41 pmFor the USA to become a Democratic Country it needs to have more Parties. The Two party one policy system is a Fraud!
April 7th, 2009 at 11:44 pmsacopenapa:
Obama is nobody’s boy!! Don’t insult our President! You remind me of the turncoats in the Democratic party! It hasn’t been 100 days and already we’ve got deserters?!! What? Are you going to run to the rightwingnutcrazy rethuglicans? Like they’re going to have your back!
April 8th, 2009 at 12:10 amHe serves only greedy oil, financial and military corporations who are deeply imbeded in what they show as ‘Government’ and are the sole couse of the economy fiasco!
April 8th, 2009 at 12:23 amThe people need their government back. We all thought we did just that when Obama won the elections. But just like the excitment to see a Woman as the Speaker of the People’s house betray us all by taking ‘Impeachment Off the table’. Obama, an African American as President of the United States… it allowed people around the globe to feel as if we were in a state of spiritual enlightnement…
Then it begun…
It begun by his choice of cabinet… Clintonites and Neocons!
The use of the same legal arguments bush used to get away with transparency, in court.
Keeping Gates and Petraus!!!!! Where is the change there???!!!??? Gates is a War Criminal who was deeply involved in the Iran-Contras!!!!!!!!!!! How on Earth they place this criminal in charged of the military forces????!!!! He is a crimial!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Then, there was the fact that Obama voted as Senator, to send Israel the very weapons That Terrorist State used in the MASSACRE of the Palestinians which begun last Dec and finished conveniently just before Oabama took office…
Obama certainly has a presence, a carisma, and for just a brief moment I think he managed to fool us all!
It is up to the people to preasure Mr. President to do what he promised. CHANGE!
fire _ant_chavis Says:
——————————————————————————–
sacopenapa:
Obama is nobody’s boy!! Don’t insult our President! You remind me of the turncoats in the Democratic party! It hasn’t been 100 days and already we’ve got deserters?!! What? Are you going to run to the rightwingnutcrazy rethuglicans? Like they’re going to have your back!
So make him act like the people’s president if he dosen’t want to be called names!
April 8th, 2009 at 12:25 am…and PS. Sorry for the ‘boy’ comment. I’m not North American and didn’t realized there it means what it means. If you permit me to change the world for my comment I would replace it with ‘the new puppet’, which in my undestanding was the first intention. I apology if by ignorance (some one that doens’t know) of the significance of the term in the US. We are all just very ungry and ansious with what has been going on in the last 8 years, we all hoped for Change that has been eroding. I am sorry for the ofence, I hope you forgive me.
April 8th, 2009 at 12:32 amEverything else on my coments, I whish to remain the same.
sacopenapa Says:
‘racist garbage’
April 7th, 2009 at 11:41 pm
Flagged.
April 8th, 2009 at 12:44 amsacopenapa Says:
April 8th, 2009 at 12:32 am
While I believe that you have certainly been around here on TP long enough to have seen others get flagged for the same terminology, and should have at least an inkling of its meaning and history, I will accept your apology.
Goodnight.
April 8th, 2009 at 12:51 amsarcocenapa:
You’re a moron if you believe that President Obama is going to accomplish EVERYTHING he ‘promised’ while he campaigned in 100 DAYS! There are LAWS to follow and a mountain of opposition and apathy from Americans who are more worried about whether they’re going to find work and or whether they can feed their kids!
April 8th, 2009 at 1:11 amShyte – some people can’t afford cable or internet! They maybe missing the message!
April 8th, 2009 at 1:11 am10.Proud Says: Excellent call by Obama. It is very simple, if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about.
Ok. Let’s follow that line of reasoning then. If the Obama administration has nothing to hide, then why are they so adamantly defending this obscenity?
I said after the election that I would reserve judgment on him for the time being. Well folks, I’m callin’ this one…
Obama has by now, and in many instances proven himself to be nothing more than a worthless, cowardly, souless minion of orthidoxy. Between the bank bailouts, failure to properly deal with the war crimes of the previous admin., overreaching of government power, Iraq, Afghanistan, and a host of other issues, he has flatly refused to keep ANY of his campaign promises or to obey the will of the people. Let alone our laws and constitution. HOW DARE HE?!! HOW DARE THEY?!!
Unfortunately, it would seem ladies and gentlemen, that we must once again take up the sorrowfull task of disrupting at least some of the agenda of OUR OWN ELECTED OFFICIALS!!
They WILL OBEY! They WILL COMPLY! Even if we have to make them by throwing a monkey-wrench into everything they do like this. I wish to see my country stop it’s utter failure to function as designed. This is why I helped to elect Obama.
EPIC FAIL!!
April 8th, 2009 at 2:17 amI wrote on my blog in January, 2008 that neither Hillary nor Barack would change things. Do you believe your government doesn’t engage in mischief by illegally listening to your phone calls? The tortured exception about the government’s not disclosing what they learn when wiretapping doesn’t cut it, either.
I watched the government torture my brother and sister-in-law for a year with psychoenergetics technology. In the midst of an attack, his heart stopped and he died—my only sibling. It took me four years to make that determination because it was technology none of us comprehended. Since they tapped his phone, and he talked on the phone constantly, they were able to make it look accidental.
This same technology can heal the sick and provide endless, clean, zero cost energy. Instead it’s used to kill innocent civilians for sport. Do you think Obama will prosecute these serial killers and declassify and disclose this important technology, for which your tax dollars paid dearly? Not in a million years.
April 8th, 2009 at 3:04 amProud Says:
Excellent call by Obama. It is very simple, if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Just what Fascists always say. I am dissapointed in Obama. This is flat out unacceptable. You never dissapoint. Always the moron
April 8th, 2009 at 4:37 ambumpfister Says:
Look moron. You are stupid. You have no brain. Why keep wasting our time doing nothing but embarass yourself and show just how incredibly stupid you are? Just increase your medication and let the adults talk
April 8th, 2009 at 4:41 amProgressives need a party of thier own.
Democrats are Rethug lite.
April 8th, 2009 at 11:49 amActually I agree with Obama. The program should be limited .But we have to me 21st century tools to counter terrorist e-mail, cell phones , computer acess.
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April 18th, 2009 at 5:57 amsac ekimi