Bayh: ‘I’m Agnostic’ About Having A Public Plan As Part Of Health Care Reform
Bayh: ‘I’m Agnostic’ About Having A Public Plan As Part Of Health Care Reform
On Fox News Sunday this morning, Sen. Tom Coburn (R-OK) trashed the idea of including a new public health insurance plan as part of health care reform, saying “that is exactly the opposite way” to improve health care in America. “We don’t need more money,” said Coburn. “What we need is true markets that will allocate this resource and create a way for everyone to have access.”
Host Chris Wallace then asked Sen. Evan Bayh (D-IN) about “private sector” concerns that a public option would mean “that everybody will end up in the government program.” Bayh replied that he was “agnostic” about including a public plan in reform:
WALLACE: But the one big concern a lot of the private sector has is the president, in his program, has as a — supposedly as a provider of last resort a government program, and the concern is they’ll be able to do it so much more cheaply, or at least in terms of the cost, that everybody will end up in the government program.
BAYH: Well, it’s a debate we need to have, Chris. And I’m agnostic on that as we sit here this morning.
Watch it:
Coburn argues that the main problem with health care in America today is that “we haven’t allowed market forces to allocate resources.” But as former Gov. Howard Dean (D-VT) told ThinkProgress recently, “the free market does not work in health care, except in very perverse ways. So, you have to find a system that works better in addition to the free market.” This is why Dean argues that health reform “rises and falls on whether the public is allowed to choose” a public option.
Indeed, as Center for American Progress Action Fund Senior Fellow Peter Harbage and Director of Health Policy Karen Davenport recently wrote, “there’s no question a public plan within a public exchange is necessary“:
Fortunately, our nation’s health insurance market can be fixed with a big dose of what fixes most sectors of our economy—healthy, well-supervised competition. One of the best ways to introduce this much-needed competition is for the federal government to offer a public health insurance plan that can compete with private insurers within an insurance “exchange” that ensures public and private health insurance plans compete equally and transparently in the public marketplace.
By saying that he is “agnostic” about a public plan, Bayh appears to be aligning himself with Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus (D-MT), who told The Wonk Room’s Igor Volsky last month that he believes health care reform can be accomplished “without” a public plan. “But we may have to have it, [Dean] may be right. Just don’t know yet,” conceded Baucus.
Transcript:
COBURN: What we have is a very inefficient system, and we haven’t allowed market forces to allocate resources.We also haven’t emphasized prevention. Three-quarters of the money that we spend in this money are on five chronic diseases that are preventable.
If we really want to improve access — and I think everybody should have access — and control costs, then we need to emphasize prevention, and we need to have real market forces. And we don’t have that today. And that’s one of the reason that everybody wants to see us change it.
But the ultimate plan, a public plan, ultimately results in a Medicare program for everybody. And that is exactly the opposite way.
One other point I’d make — we spend twice as much on health care as any other nation in the world with the exception of Switzerland, and we — and we have great physicians, great care, great hospitals and great research, but we can’t afford to continue to spend 17 percent of our GDP. And the Obama plan moves it to 19 percent.
So we don’t need more money. What we need is true markets that will allocate this resource and create a way for everyone to have access.
WALLACE: I want to bring Senator Bayh in.
And I want to ask you — because there really does seem to be momentum, bipartisan momentum, and even from the industry, from health care providers, from insurance companies, to do something this year about health care reform.
But the one big concern a lot of the private sector has is the president, in his program, has as a — supposedly as a provider of last resort a government program, and the concern is they’ll be able to do it so much more cheaply, or at least in terms of the cost, that everybody will end up in the government program.
BAYH: Well, it’s a debate we need to have, Chris. And I’m agnostic on that as we sit here this morning. I think in the Medicare Part D — to use plain English, the drug program for senior citizens…
WALLACE: The prescription drug benefit.
BAYH: … there was a provision that some people were concerned about that allowed the government to step in and offer that coverage in areas of the country where private — you know, the private sector did not step forward and offer the coverage.
So it has not had the kind of adverse impacts that some had been concerned about. We need to have a debate about that.
My own preference would be — and you may have found common ground here this morning on Easter, which is appropriate — deal with the inefficiencies, figure out a way to make the private marketplace accomplish our public good, only have the government role as a backstop, as a last resort, if the private sector has just failed to meet the challenge.
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Great fairness and balance, Fox! One senator who doesn’t want government participation in health care squaring off against a senator who doesn’t care.
April 12th, 2009 at 11:11 amHealthcare should not be a profit-driven industry. Healthcare should be fueled by altruism, not capitalism. Take the profit-motive out of healthcare in America, and a world of other problems become less severe.
I don’t care how good a doctor you are, if you went into medicine just to make money, then I don’t want you coming anywhere near my body.
April 12th, 2009 at 11:12 amWALLACE: “…the concern is they’ll be able to do it so much more cheaply, or at least in terms of the cost, that everybody will end up in the government program.”
And this would be such a bad thing, how?
April 12th, 2009 at 11:12 am- – Adorable candy will help distract us from the astounding horror of a man being nailed to a cross. Happy Easter.
April 12th, 2009 at 11:13 am- – I wish the resurrection of our lord and savior was deemed important enough for a day off work. Happy Easter.
April 12th, 2009 at 11:13 amShorter Bayh: U.S. ranking #37 in health care isn’t good enough…we can shoot for #100!
April 12th, 2009 at 11:13 amCoburn argues that the main problem with health care in America today is that “we haven’t allowed market forces to allocate resources.”
No, Senator, just the opposite. The main problem with health care in America today is that we have allowed market forces to allocate resources. And they have allocated those resources in a way to maximize profits, not maximize the number of people helped by the system.
April 12th, 2009 at 11:13 am- – There are few former carpenters I admire more than Jesus Christ and Harrison Ford. Happy Easter.
April 12th, 2009 at 11:15 amLet’s ee how quickly he changes his “agnostic” point of view by stripping him of the healthcare plan provided for him as a member of congress.
April 12th, 2009 at 11:15 am4. Badmoodman Says: – - Adorable candy will help distract us from the astounding horror of a man being nailed to a cross.
Cruci-fiction
April 12th, 2009 at 11:16 am- – Was it really so wrong I said TGIF on the anniversary of your god’s son’s violent execution? Happy Easter.
April 12th, 2009 at 11:17 amWhy is it that some country`s around the world have their health care based on our medicaid program that takes care of 35 million elderly folks or our V.A. system that takes care of our heroes who fight and protect our country.They both it sound like it`s unamerican to have health care for everyone.They don`t get it that health care is a right not a privilege.Check this article out from T.R.Reid it is very enlightening. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/etc/notebook.html
April 12th, 2009 at 11:17 am- – Let’s resume everything we gave up for Lent without any newfound spiritual insights. Happy Easter!
April 12th, 2009 at 11:20 amJohn Barringer Says:
Great fairness and balance, Fox! One senator who doesn’t want government participation in health care squaring off against a senator who doesn’t care.
And both views presented as if they were equally valid. That’s what’s bad about trying to provide “balanced” coverage. One view in the debate is often dead wrong (or, in this case, both views.)
April 12th, 2009 at 11:20 amThe fact that our medicaid program runs at a 2 to 3 percent overhead is not a factor to these guys because that would mean no profit for their constituents that they shill for.Then add in RX`s which we seem to subsidize for the rest of the world by paying the highest prices for.It`s all profit driven,until you get profits out of the either industry you will this debate rage on forever and that`s just what the profiteers want.
April 12th, 2009 at 11:21 amJohn Barringer Says:
“Great fairness and balance, Fox! One senator who doesn’t want government participation in health care squaring off against a senator who doesn’t care.”
and a bluedog democrat at that
April 12th, 2009 at 11:24 amWhy is my health something that is to be negotiated over nickels and dimes? That makes no cents.
April 12th, 2009 at 11:26 amDoes anyone out there have a Preventive/Wellness Package in their insurance, I don`t.Preventive care / wellness are not money making ,their just life saving programs and we can`t have that get in the way of profits now can we.
April 12th, 2009 at 11:29 amBadmoodman Says:
- – :There are few former carpenters I admire more than Jesus Christ and Harrison Ford. Happy Easter.”
Thinking of Jesus as a carpenter brings back images of the way Willem Dafoe was portrayed in “The Last Temptation of Christ”. His job as a carpenter was to make crucifixed.
A little like Lenin’s description of a capitalist: “The capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them.” Also very like all the Republicans who seem bent on effecting their own (and our) destruction by obstructing social reforms and environmental rescue.
April 12th, 2009 at 11:30 amCorporate Health Care is good medicine for Wall Street but it’s bad medicine for America.
Regarding Senator Even Bayh, just how many ‘Joe Liebermans’ are there in the Democratic Party?
April 12th, 2009 at 11:30 amdelafield Says:
Corporate Health Care is good medicine for Wall Street but it’s bad medicine for America.
Regarding Senator Even Bayh, just how many ‘Joe Liebermans’ are there in the Democratic Party?
April 12th, 2009 at 11:33 am————————————————————–
Him and the other 10 or 11 Blue Dog,Joe Liebermans`.
:(
Badmoodman Says:- – “Was it really so wrong I said TGIF on the anniversary of your god’s son’s violent execution? Happy Easter.”
He may well be your god but don’t assume that he’s anybody else’s.
April 12th, 2009 at 11:34 amNailed it, Dr. Dean.
April 12th, 2009 at 11:35 amBadmoodman Says:- – “Let’s resume everything we gave up for Lent without any newfound spiritual insights. Happy Easter!”
Right on!
April 12th, 2009 at 11:36 amJohn Barringer Says:
He may well be your god but don’t assume that he’s anybody else’s.
– - Sorry the fulfillment of the Lord’s promise means I’m saved and you’re not.
(Some people are just so rigid in not recognizing humor.)
April 12th, 2009 at 11:39 amRight you are, Wayne.
Three times Coburn says: “we haven’t allowed market forces to allocate resources.” But what is he talking about? How have we not allowed market forces to work?
Recently, we had over 2,000 health insurance companies, each one with about 6 plans (single, plus spouse, family, gold, silver, bronze). That makes 12,000 to choose from. That was exactly the problem. It created a bureaucratic nightmare trying to figure out who could have what and who paid which part of what. That is why we paid at least twice as much for administration of our healthcare as any other country.
We could save over $250 Billion every year administratively-alone by having single-payer AND we would include the 47,000,000 that currently have nothing.
April 12th, 2009 at 11:40 amBadmoodman: Saved from what?
April 12th, 2009 at 11:41 amangels81,
April 12th, 2009 at 11:43 amHell, I suppose.
Bayh says: “…if the private sector has just failed to meet the challenge.”
Yes, Evan, it has failed to meet the challenge but only for the entire history of the USA!
April 12th, 2009 at 11:47 amhow in the world do you remain agnostic when the question is so easy? if government health care coverage is so much cheaper that Americans would choose it over any private coverage then it’s the best healthcare for Americans! senator Bayh, i think, cries out for a special page,on think progress, to keep a scrutinous eye on his every move, every meeting,…. every phone call he makes?… you know… for his own good?… because we care for him and he’s one of us?… think about it
April 12th, 2009 at 11:50 amImagine how much coverage we’d have for 1/10th the price of bush’s Folly….
What an unholy disgrace the republicans are.
April 12th, 2009 at 11:54 amWhy is it a “concern” that a government program might be able to provide cheaper health care and do it for everyone? It’s a “concern” for health care corporation profits, but it’s great for Americans. Makes you wonder whose side Chris Wallace is on.
April 12th, 2009 at 11:57 amTheGreenMiles Says:
Why is it a “concern” that a government program might be able to provide cheaper health care and do it for everyone? It’s a “concern” for health care corporation profits, but it’s great for Americans. Makes you wonder whose side Chris Wallace is on.
April 12th, 2009 at 12:03 pm—————————————————————
Because it is Un-American to not make a profit off of health care and RX`s.As I said in one of my post above,other country`s around the world use our Medicaid and V.A. programs as models for their own and these guys make it out as very UN-American.
34. TheGreenMiles Says: Makes you wonder whose side Chris Wallace is on.
When was there ever, ever a question about that?
April 12th, 2009 at 12:04 pmbadmoodman,,,Jesus wasn’t a carpenter
April 12th, 2009 at 12:07 pmEven if you have a good employee based health care plan, watch out if you really get sick. Depending on what you got, it won’t be your doctor deciding if you get treated, it will be some insurance pencil pusher who will decide if your covered or not. Having lived in Europe for some years, most Americans really don’t know how bad a health care system we have.
April 12th, 2009 at 12:09 pmangels81,
April 12th, 2009 at 12:15 pmOne of those pencil pushers was on 60 Minutes about a year ago telling how she got a bonus if she had so many denials!
“What we need is true markets that will allocate this resource and create a way for everyone to have access.”
Exactly how long does the “market” get to work this out with 47 million US residents without health care and rising?
April 12th, 2009 at 12:18 pmangels81 Says:
Even if you have a good employee based health care plan, watch out if you really get sick. Depending on what you got, it won’t be your doctor deciding if you get treated, it will be some insurance pencil pusher who will decide if your covered or not. Having lived in Europe for some years, most Americans really don’t know how bad a health care system we have.
April 12th, 2009 at 12:19 pm————————————————————–
You were very fortunate in my mind to have lived in Europe.The Reich Wing over is a frightened little kid when it comes this issue along with same sex partners and other social developments. I have a link to an article from another post above:http://www.pbs.org/ wgbh/ pages/ frontline/ sickaroundtheworld/ etc/ notebook.html.
So says the gentleman with the best health care the people can provide. It’s been a hell of a long time since Washington actually worked for ordinary people.
April 12th, 2009 at 12:21 pmThis is fair and balanced to wingnuts. Keep in mind that the negative view is the minority party with no power whatsoever…other than obstructionism and deceit.
April 12th, 2009 at 12:29 pmThe problem with the for-profit health care system is that there is no competition. And that’s what they are afraid of, competition. Without competition they can cherry pick who they will cover, deny reimbursement for needed procedures and jack up our rates yearly in an obscene amount. Someone needs to ask Max Baucus how that is going to change without competition.
April 12th, 2009 at 12:56 pmbadmoodman…Jesus wasn’t a carpenter
–
April 12th, 2009 at 1:01 pmAnd SamJoe isn’t a plumber..
I just wish that when there is someone on one of these talking head programs that supports universal health care, they would ask their opponent…”Why is it that we are the only industrialized nation that thinks health care is a privilege and not a right. Do you think that health care is a privilege and not a right for every American?”
April 12th, 2009 at 1:01 pmBayh wants to be president so badly he is willing to compromise everything he previously claimed to believe.
He should look to John McCain to see how well that works…
April 12th, 2009 at 1:08 pmWell I have a solution that might well change Bayh’s attitude.
April 12th, 2009 at 1:22 pmCancel the Congressional health plan and force them to obtain their health insurance on the “free” market like most of us have to. Once they found out that their families were equally screwed, they might change their tunes.
Angels81 hit on a very important point that I think a lot of people miss. Even people with pretty good healthcare coverage find out quickly that having to see a doctor often or needing to see a specialist can still very quickly get expensive.
I have what I’d consider very good healthcare from my employer, and I’ve rarely used my healthcare coverage over the 10 years I’ve been paying into it, yet when I had to see a specialist, just the consultation was $600+ out of which I had to pay $350, and then a follow-up for the same fee, and then the procedure and then another follow-up. I skipped the last follow-up because I just couldn’t pay so much.
I was demolishing walls in my house and even with a mask on, I got some plaster in my throat and it swelled up, and I had to go to the ER. I waited about an hour, was seen for 20 minues, and my bill was $800, out of which I had to pay around $450.
And this is with GOOD coverage. I shudder to think of the enormous costs for ‘families’ (I don’t have any dependents so it’s just me), but the costs are crippling.
And to hear this turncoat blowhard talking about being ‘agnostic’ to universal healthcare when he gets the finest care available, just makes me sick.
________
April 12th, 2009 at 1:57 pmAs for the rest, it is my opinion that the Republican party should be destroyed
Sounds like Indiana needs to find itself a Ned Lamont for next fall.
April 12th, 2009 at 1:59 pmSince the republicans are getting so worried about deficit spending all of a sudden, now that the guy sitting in the White House is not stamped with their brand, they should easily get on board behind the idea of trimming the federal budget by eliminating health care benefits for all civil service employees, including Congress, federal judges and their staffs, and the President and his staff seems in order. (Members of the armed forces are not civil service employees, so they will be exempt.)
As far as Bayh is concerned, he another example of the “one party to rule them all” strategy. The Corporate Party of Amerika controls Evan Bayh, Nancy Pelosi, and Harry Reid, just as surely as they rule dick cheney, bohner, and rush limbaugh.
The name of the game is control the debate to keep real solutions off the table. They’re doing a pretty good job of it, in spite of the fact that the nation isn’t buying it; we understand perfectly well what’s happening.
We’ve witnessed the meltdown of unregulated, free-market capitalism. What’s happening right now is an attempt to prop up the carcass long enough to fleece whatever financial resources the little people retain at this time.
April 12th, 2009 at 2:09 pmOf far greater significance is the process by which Congress and The White House are shaping ‘reform’. It is all-inclusive. Yes indeed! The stakeholders meetings, hearings, and conferences include scores of healthcare industry players, which have defrauded Medicare and Medicaid … betrayed the public trust repeatedly for decades … and brought unbridled greed fulfillment to plateaus unknown west of Wall Street.
Debating the finance issue while the foxes, some of which are insurance companies, are divvying up the pens in the henhouse borders on the absurd. We should be vetting the players and letting the Democrats know that failing to screen the most egregious is hypocritical, immoral, and unacceptable. While the Democrats have proven their political cowardice by taking impeachment of Bush & Co. off the table … deep-sixing efforts to hold it accountable for the Iraq debacle … enabling crooked banks and bankers to survive through massive bail-outs … allowing the screw-up and corruption of healthcare reform by pay-to-play politics … this is not Change We Can Believe In.
Vomiting on our heads and telling us that it is a ‘come together’ uniting-the-country strategy is offensive and outrageous.
Bayh, Baucus, Reid, most of the GOP in Congress, et. al. are chomping at the bit to pass anything, celebrate it and hype it as landmark ‘reform’. They will let the next generation deal with massive systemic failures inclusive of excessive and unnecessary costs, fraud-waste-abuse, and quality and patient safety deficiencies. Their legacy will be the expansion of a fragmented, unaccountable, and for-profit multi-payer, multi-amoral system rife with the greedy on steroids.
April 12th, 2009 at 2:09 pmI have an idea.
April 12th, 2009 at 2:33 pmLet’s set up a national group for individuals to join whose purpose is to negotiate with the health insurance industry for better terms. Everybody who feels put upon and wants to form a negotiating block will join.
The group would negotiate rates, and offer their business to those insurers who actually pay their clients’ medical expenses instead of denying them.
I figure we could get about 100 million people in the group pretty quick.
then it wouldn’t be the evil ol’ gummint imposing–just a bunch of folks using their power.
Not socialism at all. See?
GOD, our party needs a Spring cleaning.
April 12th, 2009 at 2:48 pm.
On this Easter Sunday, I have but one question as they pontificate upon Christ’s name…
HOW MUCH DID CHRIST PROFIT FROM HIS SERVICES?
.
April 12th, 2009 at 3:38 pmFace it, there are people who are making millions and millions and millions of dollars off the health care industry. When it comes time to reform the system, will it be their interests that are protected? If so, it will never be reformed the way it needs to be.
April 12th, 2009 at 3:56 pmAs someone who worked enthusiastically as a local canvasser for Birch Bayh, Evan’s father, and Vance Hartke, then Indiana’s other Senator, I am not even agnostic about Evan Bayh’s positions. I wouldn’t vote for him as a national candidate!
April 12th, 2009 at 4:00 pmDo we know what Bayh’s contributions from the insurance industry have been? Should I hold my breath?
April 12th, 2009 at 5:20 pmThe Bayh household made over $1.2 million flipping WellPoint stock options the last few years. Mrs. Evan Bayh sits on five for-profit health care boards. Susan’s annual compensation associated with health care is $770,000. That’s nearly four times her husband’s Senate pay.
One of those companies trying to make millions off healthcare is Evan Bayh’s #7 lifetime donor, The Carlyle Group.
http://www.carlyle.com/Industry/Healthcare/item8398.html
April 12th, 2009 at 5:59 pm“What we need is true markets that will allocate this resource …”
Ya mean like the success of the Medicare drug plans that started a couple of years ago ?
Or like when the insurance execs banded with the Whitehouse to save money by building HMOs that directly shuttled the money to the CEOs.
Or like Columbia / HCA ?
April 12th, 2009 at 6:10 pmThanks for saving my lungs, state. Also, just found theyrule.net Very educational. We plebs had better wake up and quick.
April 12th, 2009 at 6:12 pmbayh isa done AS FAR AS MANY OF US ARE CONCERNED HE SCREWED HIS OWN PRESIDNET FOR POLITICAL GAINS HE IS A ASS TO DO TRTHIS sENATOR rEID MUST STEP IN AND GET TO THIS jERK
April 12th, 2009 at 6:32 pmbAYH IS GITTING MONEY FORM INSURANCE COMPANY LETS VOTE HIM OUT STIP HIM OF ALL SEENATE DUTIESC AND NOT REELECT HIM
April 12th, 2009 at 6:34 pm#59…
Why doesn’t this surprise me?
April 12th, 2009 at 7:14 pmEvan Bayh’s got real good health care from the government.
Guess he ain’t agnostic about that.
Evan Bayh=coward.
Evan Bayh=hypocrite.
Evan Bayh=worse than Lieberman.
Evan Bayh=disgrace to Indiana.
Evan Bayh=disgrace to America.
If Evan despise government run health care, drop out of the Senate’s health plan for Senators.
April 12th, 2009 at 7:15 pmIt’s time ALL these selfish, close-minded idiots got religion and realized he people’s lives are at stake. Health care is a human right, not a commodity to be traded cash.
They also need to notice that our present free market banking and health care systems are not working. More of the same will not work either.
Senator Bayh’s wife, Susan needs to find a source of income other than her Wellpoint board membership.
We need H.R. 676 – single-payer, government paid, privately delivered health care.
Period.
April 12th, 2009 at 7:43 pmOne of those companies trying to make millions off healthcare is Evan Bayh’s #7 lifetime donor, The Carlyle Group.
Is that “group” still headed up by Frank “fingers” Carlucci?
April 12th, 2009 at 7:54 pmTranslation–Bayh is too much of a political chickensh*t to take a position on this issue.
April 12th, 2009 at 9:56 pmGee, If Bayh didn’t have his tax payer congressional platnum Health care plan. Do you think he would be agnostic about it?
April 13th, 2009 at 12:48 amSorry guys, but I can’t tell you how relieved I am to be living in Australia when it comes to health care. In Oz, those on middle/higher incomes generally have private health insurance, (which admittedly is usually better quality than free cover). But at least if you’re poor and you get sick, you don’t have to fight to get medical treatment, and it’s free. True, public health care is pretty basic and not much fun, but it saved my life once when I was a student, and it didn’t cost me a brass razoo. I’m truly gobsmacked by the US system of ‘health care’, (a misnomer if there ever was one). The American health system is one of the most expensive, yet least effective, in the industrialized world, and the Insurance Companies are laughing all the way to the bank. Any political party that proposed a US-like system in Oz would face serious opposition from the voting public.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:23 amSingle payer will help solve our health care problem because it will remove the profit and middle men out of the system which suck up millions in wages and benefits and don’t improve care a single bit.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:41 pmI still as always believe that these members of Congress are so out of touch with the realities of everyday people. They continue to believe that health care is a privilege not a right…..and it should be viewed as a business venture..and as ling as the insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies are making a profit there is no health care crisis….that is so inherently WRONG!!! WE need the plan that Rep. John Conyers is offering..and in some corners is gaining traction…..we need to stop having the insurance companies and the pharmas write the legislation….and they should not be allowed to lobby Congress or give huge campaign donations to these folks…that amounts to influence….Sen. Bayh should just keep quiet….he is not helpful to the discussion right now….
April 13th, 2009 at 2:11 pmOk, Sen. Bayh, I just got back from my home state of IN…your state and can’t believe the construction standing still in the NW area of the state. Buildings half built, subdivisions with a road, maybe a cement slab and nothing else. 3 people in my family lost thier jobs last week and with it, their insurance for their families.
I think you should be a little beyond “agnostic” about health insurance. Your Republican voters will be in this mess soon, if not already, so get your head out of your nether region and take a stand. Your constituants need you…
April 13th, 2009 at 4:30 pmOK Pat obviously senile dementia has set in. Time to see the nice young men that will need to take care of you soon.burun estetigi rent a car arac kiralama
April 18th, 2009 at 5:43 amsac ekimi