Gephardt: Health care reform should be ‘incremental.’
Gephardt: Health care reform should be ‘incremental.’
Former Rep. Dick Gephardt (D-MO) is urging the White House to defer the goal of expanding access to health insurance “until it enacts cost-saving reforms in health care delivery.” But during the 2004 presidential campaign, Gephardt, who now lobbies for PhRMA, among other corporate interests, promised that if he were elected president, he would “immediately” ensure that “everyone who works will have health coverage.” In fact, the former House Majority Leader argued that “access to quality health care is the moral issue of our time” and portrayed himself — in a rather dramatic fight with Gov. Howard Dean (D-VT) — as the only candidate who could address the health care crisis:
– “Howard Dean and the other candidates may think leaving tens of millions of Americans uninsured is acceptable. … I think they’re wrong.” [NYT, 01/03/2004]
– “It is immoral to have people without health insurance,” he said, speaking to about 70 people on the lawn of a Manchester home. “This issue is in my heart. It’s in my head. It’s in my soul. I will not rest until I get the people health insurance.” [Chicago Tribune, 07/22/2003]
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Maybe Gephardt got the Evan Bayh memo.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:22 pm“And by ‘get the people health insurance’ I mean actively lobby against the people getting health insurance.”
April 13th, 2009 at 1:23 pmFormer Rep. Dick Gephardt (D-MO) is urging the White House to defer the goal of expanding access to health insurance “until it enacts cost-saving reforms in health care delivery.”
Oh, I agree. Let’s start ‘cost saving reforms’ by suspending the free medical care extended to members of congress and ban lobbyists until we can ‘incrementally’ introduce proper healthcare delivery…
..for everyone.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:24 pmDick; you’re out of politics now….stay out.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:27 pmThe best way to ‘enact cost-saving reforms in health care delivery’ is to simply expand Medicare to cover everyone. Overhead costs to deliver health care would drop from 40% to 3% overnight.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:28 pmCorrect me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t Gephardt still have the healthcare coverage he had when he was in Congress?
If so, I’m sure he’ll agree to give it up immediately — so he can show us how wonderful “incremental” coverage will be.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:29 pmWhat these NeoDems and the NeoCons and big Pharma. want Obama to do is to delay until he can’t do anything at all.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:32 pmRe: Gephart’s Hypocrisy
See Upton Sinclair, who noted 75 years ago that it is ALWAYS difficult to get a man to see that which his paycheck demands he ignore…
Not that Gephart’s not a hypocrite. It’s a question of why and how the phuque anyone would have believed him to begin with.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:33 pmshoeless Chilopoda Says:
The best way to ‘enact cost-saving reforms in health care delivery’ is to simply expand Medicare to cover everyone. Overhead costs to deliver health care would drop from 40% to 3% overnight.
That needs to be repeated again and again and again and….
Because it is the quickest and simplest way to get where we need to be. And true.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:33 pmWhat these NeoDems and the NeoCons and big Pharma. want Obama to do is to delay until he can’t do anything at all.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Gonna work, too…Bettabuck…
April 13th, 2009 at 1:34 pm“And by ‘get the people health insurance’ I mean actively lobby against the people getting health insurance.”
April 13th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
hey. Lighten Up! Ex-Congressmen have big expenses and only a life-time, full-pay pension, health care and support.
He’s probably got kids to send to small, elite, expensive colleges, too…
It’s tough out there…
April 13th, 2009 at 1:36 pmThis is also one of his clients:
He should STFU now.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:36 pmSome SERIOUS big pharma and Health (sic) Insurance dollars are finding their way around this country right now…
April 13th, 2009 at 1:36 pmIsn’t it amazing how quickly politicians change their tune when they are being paid by an industry they formerly criticized.
So Mr. Gephardt, how is our government going to be able to “enacts cost-saving reforms in health care delivery.”?
In order to do that, our government would have to put limitations on how a for-profit corporation conducts it’s business. Just imagine how the Republicant’s would react to that.
I do agree that the changes need to be incremental because there’s no way that big business and the Republicant’s would go for an immediate step to nationalized health care. I think that President Obama’s plan to have an alternative government run health care system is brilliant. That way the for-profit health care industry will either become competitive or they will become extinct. I do believe that eventually we will have a nationalized health care system because business will demand it. They don’t want to carry the burden of having to provide health care to their employees and they know that having to do so lessens their competitive edge.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:37 pmYou will never hear anyone in the MSM mention this idea.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:38 pmlokidog Says:
shoeless Chilopoda Says:
The best way to ‘enact cost-saving reforms in health care delivery’ is to simply expand Medicare to cover everyone. Overhead costs to deliver health care would drop from 40% to 3% overnight.
That needs to be repeated again and again and again and….
Because it is the quickest and simplest way to get where we need to be. And true.
That was Dennis Kucinich’s approach. I read his plan and it made perfect sense. He even had people run a cost analysis and found that putting all Americans on medicare would cost individuals and businesses much less than the current for-profit health insurance industry.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:40 pmIt is immoral that the richest country in the world (for now) does not have universal healthcare for its people.
Fcuk the Republicans
April 13th, 2009 at 1:41 pmshoeless Chilopoda Says:
lokidog Says:
——————————————————————————–
shoeless Chilopoda Says:
The best way to ‘enact cost-saving reforms in health care delivery’ is to simply expand Medicare to cover everyone. Overhead costs to deliver health care would drop from 40% to 3% overnight.
That needs to be repeated again and again and again and….
Because it is the quickest and simplest way to get where we need to be. And true.
You will never hear anyone in the MSM mention this idea.
From 40% to 3% of what?
April 13th, 2009 at 1:41 pmBuckie Boy Says:
It is immoral that the richest country in the world (for now) does not have universal healthcare for its people.
Fcuk the Republicans
Why is it immoral? Is it moral to ration healthcare? Is it moral to have a board decide who gets life saving treatment and who does not?
April 13th, 2009 at 1:42 pmPrivate health insurance companies currently have about 40% overhead costs. Medicare overhead cost is about 3%.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:43 pmSo, my question is, why is the MSM giving face time to only Democrats who disagree with President Obama’s plans? I’m sure there are many Democratic politicians who agree with his plans. Why aren’t they getting coverage? Oh wait…I forgot.. When you have 80% of your media owned by conservatives, that’s the message you are going to hear.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:43 pmo.k. I’ll try to die in incremental parts.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:44 pmindependent989 Says:
Buckie Boy Says:
It is immoral that the richest country in the world (for now) does not have universal healthcare for its people.
Fcuk the Republicans
Why is it immoral? Is it moral to ration healthcare? Is it moral to have a board decide who gets life saving treatment and who does not?
What is immoral is that we consider health care to be a privilege and not a right.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:44 pm#
shoeless Chilopoda Says:
Private health insurance companies currently have about 40% overhead costs. Medicare overhead cost is about 3%.
But 3% or 40% of what? Of the total expenditure? Or is it 40% of the revenue that is brought in goes to Admin?
April 13th, 2009 at 1:44 pmMy late wife’s oncologist and I are currently fighting an insurance company for this very reason. Accountants should not be making life and death medical decisions.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:47 pmindependent989 Says:Why is it immoral? Is it moral to ration healthcare? Is it moral to have a board decide who gets life saving treatment and who does not?
So your against the current system that rations health care based on ability to pay and not need, correct?
April 13th, 2009 at 1:47 pmNow that Gephardt is a lobbyist for pharmaceuticals, he’s not such an advocate for universal health care. I should not be surprised.
For a while his name was kicked around for the HHS secretary!
Money speaks louder than anything, and it is stronger than everything.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:48 pmBilbo Hussein Baggins Says:
independent989 Says:
Buckie Boy Says:
It is immoral that the richest country in the world (for now) does not have universal healthcare for its people.
Fcuk the Republicans
Why is it immoral? Is it moral to ration healthcare? Is it moral to have a board decide who gets life saving treatment and who does not?
What is immoral is that we consider health care to be a privilege and not a right.
It isn’t a right. It is a service. You haven’t answered my question that I posed. “Is it moral to ration healthcare? Is it moral to have a board decide who gets life saving treatment and who does not?”
April 13th, 2009 at 1:48 pmI have a new master said the Gephardt. The people can just wait until I collect my millions as a lobbyist against their interests.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:49 pmI’m pretty sure overhead for any company is based on gross income, which in the case of Medicare would be the budget set by Congress.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:50 pmRepublican cowards want insurance company boards to make decisions that a doctor and his/her patient should be making.
Typical wealth protectionist attitudes from people that think someday they will be rich enough to not pay taxes.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:50 pmEither way that is 40% of the money paid to health insurance that does not go for healthcare. Healthcare premiums for my employees are $12.5k/year. I could use a 37% decrease and hire more people.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:50 pmshoeless Chilopoda Says:
independent989 Says:
——————————————————————————–
Why is it immoral? Is it moral to ration healthcare? Is it moral to have a board decide who gets life saving treatment and who does not?
My late wife’s oncologist and I are currently fighting an insurance company for this very reason. Accountants should not be making life and death medical decisions.
I am sorry for your loss. Would you rather be fighting an Insurance company to get your services covered or a government bureaucracy? At least in a free market you have a choice where as in a government run health system, you would not. Unless you wanted to go out of the country to get medical help in a free market system.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:51 pmi received an email from dr. dean the other day… and i followed the links to help out the cause too:
You’re proving that people-powered campaigns work — again.
Since I launched our Healthcare for All campaign at StandwithDrDean.com, the response has been incredible.
Already more than 270,000 Americans stand with us to say that a public option is the only way to guarantee healthcare for all Americans.
We’ve written over 34,000 letters to the editor at newspapers around the country to get the message out.
Members of MoveOn and TrueMajority as well as the entire Congressional Progressive Caucus have joined the campaign too. Together, we draw a line in the sand that inclusion of a public option is non-negotiable for any healthcare reform passed this year.
The bad news is that HMO’s and Insurance Companies are already working to stop us.
But they don’t have the American people on their side — and with your help, we’re going to prove it. If 1,000 people contribute $100 each by the end of April, we’ll have the resources to launch our largest grassroots field effort ever.
CONTRIBUTE TODAY TO FUEL OUR BIGGEST MOBILIZATION EVER
This is a big campaign. Neighborhood canvasses, congressional meetings, calls, rallies, and targeted ads — we’ll need your help to pull it all off. I will personally deliver all our signatures and comments to Congress on the steps of the Capitol and I’ll ask you to join me by delivering signatures to your member’s local office.
I’m already traveling the country talking about this campaign and our call for real healthcare reform. Next week, I’ll hit events in Florida and New York. But, we need to be everywhere, talking to everyone. That’s why I need your help.
Pharmaceutical companies, the insurance industry, and HMOs will stop at nothing to kill real reform. They’ve got lobbyists. We’ve got you.
YOUR SUPPORT WILL DELIVER THE RESOURCES TO WIN
Thank you for everything you do.
-Howard
Governor Howard Dean, M.D.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:52 pmFounder, Democracy for America
And you don’t know that healthcare is already rationed by insurace companies?
April 13th, 2009 at 1:53 pmlol, look at indy spouting the talking points he’s been given without examining them for validity
he even makes the claim that we have a CHOICE, lol
too funny
Republicans can always count on the ignorance and cowardice of their base, even when, out of political embarrassment, they claim to be “independent”
sure are a LOT more right wing “independents” since GW Bush
LOL
April 13th, 2009 at 1:54 pmYou are wrong. In countries with national health care, doctors make the decisions about treatment. In the United States, insurance company managers make health care decisions.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:54 pmMedicare works and it is the most cost-effective.
It would take some time to get it set up to handle all of America, but I don’t doubt it could be done.
Unfortunately, Gephardt, and the thousands of other lobbyists for big pharma, plus the thousands of lobbyists for the insurance industry are determined that this shall not be — and the uninsured of America will just continue to go untreated.
Some of the insurance personnel would be able to work for the Medicare system, but too many would be redundant – and so for the pharmaceuticals.
It’s all about money, greed and personal gain – screw the public.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:55 pmbelaccifer lacca Says:
independent989 Says:Why is it immoral? Is it moral to ration healthcare? Is it moral to have a board decide who gets life saving treatment and who does not?
So your against the current system that rations health care based on ability to pay and not need, correct?
We all have more of a chance getting what we need in a free market than we do if we leave our health decisions up to some bureaucrat. The current system is not perfect but it is much closer to perfect than giving Gov control over our healthcare decisions.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:55 pmlol, indy thinks the “free-market” system isn’t run by bureaucrats
right wingers and their ignorance, too funny
April 13th, 2009 at 1:56 pmI am sorry for your loss. Would you rather be fighting an Insurance company to get your services covered or a government bureaucracy?
You don’t understand.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:57 pmHer oncologist says she needs treatment… she would get it under a universal health plan.
They are fighting the Insurance company because making a profit on sick people is big business… but also immoral.
Why are you defending it?
independent989, obviously you don’t have health insurance or have never had to use it,
April 13th, 2009 at 1:57 pm#
RantingTommy Says:
lol, look at indy spouting the talking points he’s been given without examining them for validity
he even makes the claim that we have a CHOICE, lol
too funny
Republicans can always count on the ignorance and cowardice of their base, even when, out of political embarrassment, they claim to be “independent”
sure are a LOT more right wing “independents” since GW Bush
LOL
How about backing up your attacks with facts. Can’t do it, didn’t think so. Next…
April 13th, 2009 at 1:57 pmIf we don’t have healthcare for everyone, we don’t even rate as a civilized country. We might as well be lying around in our own t*rds.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:57 pmNo we don’t.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:58 pmThe people of Europe are perfectly satisfied with their health care system, particularly the French.
now indy ignores the facts and claims I haven’t presented any
right wingers are such cowards, afraid of facts, and now afraid of admitting they are republicans, actually resorting to claiming to be independents
too funny
April 13th, 2009 at 1:58 pmAsk whose pocket he is in now…
April 13th, 2009 at 1:59 pm#46 was addressed to #40.
April 13th, 2009 at 1:59 pmWe all have more of a chance getting what we need in a free market than we do if we leave our health decisions up to some bureaucrat. The current system is not perfect but it is much closer to perfect than giving Gov control over our healthcare decisions.
Why are those living in countries with Universal health care so much more satisfied with their countries health care industry then?
link from Fox just for you ‘independents’
April 13th, 2009 at 1:59 pmshoeless Chilopoda Says:
The best way to ‘enact cost-saving reforms in health care delivery’ is to simply expand Medicare to cover everyone. Overhead costs to deliver health care would drop from 40% to 3% overnight.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:00 pm————————————————————-
Medicare runs at a 2 to 3 percent overhead because we don`t have to pay CEO`s enormous amounts of money to run the company`s and don`t forget that we pay the highest RX`s prices in the world.The price of health care in this country is hurting our competitiveness with our top 20 trading partners in the world, it`s not union wages it`s health care along with wages for management and supervisory jobs.
Can you get it through your thick skull that the guy who denied coverage for my wife is a bureaucrat. He is just a bureaucrat for a private company.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:00 pmfor-profit health care is run by bureaucrats that take health care decisions away from doctors and give it to people who are dependent on NOT paying for health care
get rid of bloated, stockholder-driven health insurance and replace it with DOCTOR-DRIVEN health care
April 13th, 2009 at 2:01 pmgephardt is scum – just another lying liar that is in the pocket of the for-profit health-insurance complex.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:02 pmaww, “independent” must be stinging from the spanking he got once the FACTS came out
no wonder the right wingers fear facts so much. facts always kick their a$$
April 13th, 2009 at 2:05 pmshoeless Chilopoda Says:
independent989 Says:
——————————————————————————–
Would you rather be fighting an Insurance company to get your services covered or a government bureaucracy? At least in a free market you have a choice where as in a government run health system, you would not.
You are wrong. In countries with national health care, doctors make the decisions about treatment. In the United States, insurance company managers make health care decisions.
Ok so let me understand and take this to what I believe to be it’s ultimate conclusion. Healthcare is now “FREE” so everyone now has the ability to get a heart transplant(HT) whenever they want. The # of people getting a HT skyrockets and demand outstrips supply. So you are 60 and need a heart translplant and so does a guy who is 25. But because of rationing there is only one heart to be had. Who get’s it? You have now lost control and given it to a board who decides who get’s it and who doesn’t. You who is 60 and about to start collecting SS in the next few years or the 25 yr old who has 40 years left to pay taxes? Who get’s it? That is the problem. No matter how much money you have, you will never get that heart. There is no secondary market, there is no privately run healthcare anywhere. It is all gov owned and run. And a Bureaucrat made the decision upon what is good for the state instead of the market deciding what is best for the market. Enjoy!!
April 13th, 2009 at 2:05 pmwatchdog Says:
Why are health care cost going up?
To offset the costs of Republiscums hoarding Viagra and narcotic pain medications.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:05 pmndependent989 Says:
belaccifer lacca Says:
independent989 Says:Why is it immoral? Is it moral to ration healthcare? Is it moral to have a board decide who gets life saving treatment and who does not?
So your against the current system that rations health care based on ability to pay and not need, correct?
We all have more of a chance getting what we need in a free market than we do if we leave our health decisions up to some bureaucrat. The current system is not perfect but it is much closer to perfect than giving Gov control over our healthcare decisions.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:05 pm______________________________________________________________
Why do some people make sound unAmerican to have public health care,country`s around the world base their health care models on our medicare for our 40 million elderly perple and others use our Veterans System that`s based on taking care of our soldiers, so If our two public systems are so horrible why do other country`s use our systems as models for theirs?
shoeless Chilopoda Says:
Can you get it through your thick skull that the guy who denied coverage for my wife is a bureaucrat. He is just a bureaucrat for a private company.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
He doesn’t want to get it through his thick skull — it doesn’t suit him.
I’m so sorry you’re having to go through all this, before and after losing your wife. I can’t imagine the pain you must be going through. My best to you…
April 13th, 2009 at 2:06 pmIt is his ideology. Right-wing ideology demands that people die in all sorts of ways in order uphold their sacred principles.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:07 pmlol, indy thinks people will just rush out to get unnecessary heart surgery if the “free market” doesn’t artificially limit who can get it
wow, that’s ignorant, even for a right wing bush-ball-licker like indy
April 13th, 2009 at 2:07 pmThe Gephardt Group:
2007 three clients $590,000
2008 six clients $1,310,000
2009 ten clients (including PhRMA) ?
Dick works for the greenback team.
http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/lobbyist.php?year=2008&lname=Gephardt%2C+Richard&id=Y00000334820
April 13th, 2009 at 2:08 pmindependent989 Says:
We all have more of a chance getting what we need in a free market than we do if we leave our health decisions up to some bureaucrat. The current system is not perfect but it is much closer to perfect than giving Gov control over our healthcare decisions.
It isn’t a free market if insurance companies aren’t truly competitive. People with health insurance can’t shop around for treatment because no one will pick up someone with a pre-existing condition.
You ignore the FACT that health insurance companies are organized for profit, and that they make money by not providing care if they can possibly avoid it. How is this better than having clearly-defined guidelines and pharmacopia?
And you have yet to explain how medical care in Western Europe and Canada has been inferior to US health care other than unsubstantiated comments about how “it just is.”
April 13th, 2009 at 2:08 pmindependent989,
You are a f ucking lunatic.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:08 pmIndependent~
a question… do you really think that people are gonna start lining up for heart transplants just ’cause it’s ‘free?’
You don’t think that scenario is a teensy bit ridiculous?
Might as well crack the chest and throw in a new liver as long as it’s ‘free’ huh?
Thank God Insurance companies are stopping this madness!!!! /sarc
April 13th, 2009 at 2:09 pmI went to court a few years ago and the judge (bought by the insurance co) and the jury (bought by the insurance co)denied care to me and everyone else in our suit.
The judge wouldn’t let Any evidence in that would support our case and the insurance co. spent close to 10m to make sure we 20 people were denied care. And for posters on the VA thread – That Evidence That Supported Our Case Included Signed Documents from the State Government, OSHA, insurance companys and doctors – All Excluded, Signatures Didn’t Mean Shi*.
Now you know why I can spend so much time at the computer and only work part time at our business.
When I said I’d try to die incrementally I meant it.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:09 pm“independent” wants corporate bureaucrats to make your health decisions for you
we all know a CEO is beholden to the people and not the shareholders, right? NOT!
April 13th, 2009 at 2:10 pmindependent989 Says:
Ok so let me understand and take this to what I believe to be it’s ultimate conclusion. Healthcare is now “FREE” so everyone now has the ability to get a heart transplant(HT) whenever they want. The # of people getting a HT skyrockets and demand outstrips supply. So you are 60 and need a heart translplant and so does a guy who is 25. But because of rationing there is only one heart to be had. Who get’s it?
And this is different from today how? Do you seriously imagine that people get heart transplants because it sounds like fun? And that transplants aren’t already rationed?
April 13th, 2009 at 2:11 pmshoeless Chilopoda Says:
independent989 Says:
——————————————————————————–
We all have more of a chance getting what we need in a free market than we do if we leave our health decisions up to some bureaucrat.
Can you get it through your thick skull that the guy who denied coverage for my wife is a bureaucrat. He is just a bureaucrat for a private company.
Can you get it through your thick skull that you would have been able to or pay for any procedure in the world if you would have had the money???? I know money does not grow on trees but we all have a lot more chance of getting what we want by earning $ or turning possessions into $ than we do of controlling what a Government Bureaucracy does. At least in a free market system we all have some sort of control. You will have no control in a Gov Run system.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:11 pmbelaccifer lacca Says:
——————————————————————————–
I am sorry for your loss. Would you rather be fighting an Insurance company to get your services covered or a government bureaucracy.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:12 pm————————————————————–
If 2 to 3 percent on medicare overhead is called gov`t bureauracy then I am all for it,because paying some greedy bastard tens of millions of dollars to run a company is all wrong,Health care is a right to all Americans not a privilege.
Thank you Zooey. It’s been the worst 7 months of my life. Her oncologist said the same thing.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:12 pmChris- I was quoting inependent989 there, I agree with you whole (’free’ transplant) heartedly, heh.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:12 pmIllness should be incremental and costs to treat them incremental, but wake the frak up! Life doesn’t work that way. Special interests have turned US health care into a nightmare for all but the best off. Health care is one battlefield in the Conservative-orchestrated class war! The people are losing.
Bring back Dr. Dean!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
April 13th, 2009 at 2:13 pmIt is really amazingly sad how some of these Democrats are apparently wimping-out on true health care reform….except for John Conyers and those who have signed on to it!!
April 13th, 2009 at 2:13 pmahh, now I see the problem with our resident right wing “independent”:
he thinks government is a separate entity from “the people”
he think for profit corporations will have our best interests at heart more than ELECTED BY THE PEOPLE representatives
he really is that ignorant/brainwashed
or he’s just a liar
April 13th, 2009 at 2:14 pmWould you rather be fighting an Insurance company to get your services covered or a government bureaucracy?
bein’ as “we the people” are the government, i’d take that route…
and since health care actually IS a “right”, there would be no fighting… services are covered. (period.)
so simple.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:14 pmerr “thinks”
April 13th, 2009 at 2:15 pmYou will have no control in a Gov Run system.
People with traditional Medicare (not the Republican Medicare Advantage – lol – plans) are free to go to whatever MD or hospital they want. And that gives them more “choice” than a lot of for-profit private plans.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:15 pmindependent989 Says:
Can you get it through your thick skull that you would have been able to or pay for any procedure in the world if you would have had the money????
April 13th, 2009 at 2:11 p
Ok, this one needs flagging.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:15 pmLike most right-wing scumbags, you have no idea what you are talking about. Only millionaires have enough money to pay for cancer surgery and treatments. You are an ignorant fool.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:16 pmwatchdog, many states have undergone professional liability reform. Texas did so years ago.
Investment returns (or losses) have a much greater correlation to liability insurance increases than lawsuit rates. Wall Street’s implosion portends big professional liability insurance increases.
Bush effectively wiped out liability lawsuits in medical devices and pharmaceuticals, so they haven’t added to increased costs. What has?
Did you know two hospital mergers increased health care costs over $2 billion? Not one bit of new technology was added. No new hospital bed was put in service. HCA’s and Triad Hospitals’ interest expense more than doubled.
One reason for costs going up is the cost of caring for uninsured. Hospital uncompensated care for 2007 was $34 billion. Putting off coverage or making it incremental delays fixing one source of rising costs. One company has the ability to pay all those unpaid hospital bills and have $10 billion in annual profits leftover.
http://stateofthedivision.blogspot.com/2009/03/two-numbers-reflect-sad-state-of-health.html
April 13th, 2009 at 2:16 pmThis is the problem with lobbyist, your master is whoever is paying you and it doesn’t matter what side your on. People really need to pay attention and push the President to get health care done. I also think single payer needs to be part of what is on the table.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:16 pmYeah, let some Republican politicians try to take Medicare away from seniors and see what happens!
April 13th, 2009 at 2:17 pm#
watchdog Says:
Nobody is talking about the real reason for the high cost of health care. Does anyone know why??
Because it requires tort reform that would have a major affect on medical malpractice lawyers pockets.
Lawyers don’t eat their own. Its lawyers first money second and somewhere on the very tail end is country.
Agreed, plus there is not a true market involved even today. Most people do not shop around for the best value based care because they are not incentified to do it. Incentify people to keep costs down and implement Tort reform and you will see healthcare costs plummit.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:17 pmIt is all gov owned and run. And a Bureaucrat made the decision upon what is good for the state instead of the market deciding what is best for the market. Enjoy!!
I can’t believe this. I mean I hear it all the time. The market??? What’s best for the market is money, and that’s why we have below par healthcare in this country, because insurance companies don’t give a damn about people.
what is good for the state is taking care of its citizens, and other developed nations have figured this out a long time ago. When did being American become so rabidly selfish and cutthroat?
Independent, you aren’t independent at all. You’re a slave to the idea of a ‘free market,’ and you’re willing to watch a huge percentage of your fellow hardworking Americans unable to have health insurance because you want the ‘freedom of choice.’ Disgusting. That is not American.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:17 pmindependent989 Says:
Can you get it through your thick skull that you would have been able to or pay for any procedure in the world if you would have had the money???? I know money does not grow on trees but we all have a lot more chance of getting what we want by earning $ or turning possessions into $ than we do of controlling what a Government Bureaucracy does. At least in a free market system we all have some sort of control. You will have no control in a Gov Run system.
Ah, I get it. People are better off if they sell their possessions to pay for medical treatment than if they have government-guaranteed health insurance. Yes, indeed, that makes so much sense. Especially if you believe that government-guaranteed health insurance will put all the doctors and hospitals out of business and unwilling to accept money from private patients. Unlike anywhere in the civilized world.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:18 pmGephardt is one of those who gave a bad name to the Democratic party before 1994. Frankly, he’d be better off staying silent…
April 13th, 2009 at 2:19 pm#
katydid Says:
Would you rather be fighting an Insurance company to get your services covered or a government bureaucracy?
bein’ as “we the people” are the government, i’d take that route…
and since health care actually IS a “right”, there would be no fighting… services are covered. (period.)
so simple.
You obviously have never taken on a gov bureaucracy then. I just hope the first time is not when you need a kidney.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:19 pmFuc* everyone that wants to deny care! Especially you independent shi*head.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:20 pmwatchdog Says:
Why are health care cost going up?
April 13th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
April 13th, 2009 at 2:20 pm~~
Lobbyists ‘for-profit’ pharmaceutical companies and medical insurance companies.
Most people do not shop around for the best value based care because they are not incentified to do.
BS – most people don’t “shop around” because they would never get coverage (pre-existing condition,e. g.) and are locked into what they have.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:20 pmindy is just parroting the talking points from his right wing heroes that tell him how to think
he doesn’t examine their spiel for accuracy, because he lacks the courage and brains to do so
he just takes what they say and runs with it, too ignorant to realize that letting corporate bureaucrats run health insurance increases costs for everyone and creates a system that is unresponsive to the people
April 13th, 2009 at 2:20 pmindependent989 Says:
#
watchdog Says:
Nobody is talking about the real reason for the high cost of health care. Does anyone know why??
Because it requires tort reform that would have a major affect on medical malpractice lawyers pockets.
Lawyers don’t eat their own. Its lawyers first money second and somewhere on the very tail end is country.
Agreed, plus there is not a true market involved even today. Most people do not shop around for the best value based care because they are not incentified to do it. Incentify people to keep costs down and implement Tort reform and you will see healthcare costs plummit.
Bzzzt.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:20 pm
belaccifer, I am doing to much copy and pasting today.Health care is a pet peeve of mine these days.My current health ins sucks and so does my wife’s.I have to meet a $6500 deductible between the two and can`t afford to see a doctor without having to pay at least $120 a visit, that`s a lot visits to meet my deductible.I have no preventative or wellness what so ever.If we all had well or preventative medicine that would bring down a lot of cost for everyone.The re-pukes and some blue dogs will continue to be very ambiguous about this and in the meantime people are dying due to denials or lack of care period.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:20 pmshoeless Chilopoda Says:
independent989 Says:
——————————————————————————–
Can you get it through your thick skull that you would have been able to or pay for any procedure in the world if you would have had the money???? I know money does not grow on trees but we all have a lot more chance of getting what we want by earning $ or turning possessions into $ than we do of controlling what a Government Bureaucracy does.
Like most right-wing scumbags, you have no idea what you are talking about. Only millionaires have enough money to pay for cancer surgery and treatments. You are an ignorant fool.
You are missing the point, there is still an option. You my friend are the ignorant one. You are ignoring the facts. I ignore nothing.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:21 pmPharmaceutical advertising costs, for one
April 13th, 2009 at 2:21 pmindependent989, it is already illegal to give organs out to the person with the most money. Organ donations already have to be approved by a board and they are supposed to go to the person most in immediate need that has the best chance of survival. For example, heart transplants tend not to go to unmarried men because their chance of survival is less than those who are married. You really have no idea what you’re talking about.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:21 pmDelays in fixing the uninsured problem impacts nonprofit community hospitals. In my community the nonprofit provides 80% of care for the uninsured vs. 20% by the for-profit.
Dick’s delay means more stressed nonprofit community hospitals. They may be forced to close or sell out to for-profit chains. Legacy Health System does such deals with struggling hospitals. White House Health Czar Nancy-Ann DeParle sat on Legacy’s board, along with many other for-profit healthcare companies.
Gephardt delivered the Chamber of Commerce plan for healthcare reform. Funny, Larry Summers did likewise in his interview at the Economic Club of Washington. Birds of a feather….
http://peureport.blogspot.com/2009/04/larry-summers-offers-us-chamber.html
April 13th, 2009 at 2:21 pmchristopher, in order to solve your health care problem, just take Inderpendent’s advice and get rich. Problem solved.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:23 pm#
Realness Says:
It is all gov owned and run. And a Bureaucrat made the decision upon what is good for the state instead of the market deciding what is best for the market. Enjoy!!
I can’t believe this. I mean I hear it all the time. The market??? What’s best for the market is money, and that’s why we have below par healthcare in this country, because insurance companies don’t give a damn about people.
what is good for the state is taking care of its citizens, and other developed nations have figured this out a long time ago. When did being American become so rabidly selfish and cutthroat?
Independent, you aren’t independent at all. You’re a slave to the idea of a ‘free market,’ and you’re willing to watch a huge percentage of your fellow hardworking Americans unable to have health insurance because you want the ‘freedom of choice.’ Disgusting. That is not American.
Where will the choice be when there is rationing? There will be a choice but you will not make it. Your beloved Government will.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:23 pmindependent989 Says
April 13th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
It isn’t a right. It is a service. You haven’t answered my question that I posed. “Is it moral to ration healthcare? Is it moral to have a board decide who gets life saving treatment and who does not?”
__________________________________________________________
The reason you’re not getting any answer to your questions is because the questions are absurd. They’re on a par with asking “is it moral to send children to re-education camps?” — implying there’s some basis for the question. There’s no way to answer your questions without giving some legitimacy to them.
You are making the assumption that in a single-payer health care system that health care would be rationed and that there would be some group of people somewhere whose job it would be to keep people from getting the health care they need. And your questions imply we don’t have these conditions now.
But guess what? We DO have these conditions now. I have health insurance through my employer, but I still pay a lot of money out of my own pocket for it. Even though what I pay for my health insurance ranks up there with what I pay for groceries, my doctor STILL can barely make a move in the interest of my health without checking with my insurance company. Why? Because when my insurance company has to pay out money in claims, it affects their profit margin. So don’t suggest to me that health care isn’t rationed now, and don’t suggest to me that we don’t already have a “board” whose job it is to deny me health care.
And don’t suggest I get a different health insurance provider — this is what my employer offers, so this is what I can afford. But when I compare my plan with those of my friends and people I know who work for other companies, this seems to be pretty much the norm.
My former husband, whose primary insurance provider is Medicare, runs into FAR LESS hassle with his health care – paid for by the government who isn’t looking to make a profit off of him.
Is it moral to deny people health care? Of course it isn’t. But your supposition that we don’t already have that going on with for-profit companies is flawed.
Of course, you consider health care a “service” rather than a right. What does this mean, exactly? That people who can’t afford the “service” deserve to die in the street? What’s moral about that?
By your standards, one could consider education a “service”, too. Yet, we recognize that giving everyone a basic education makes us a better country, so we do. Keeping our population healthy benefits all of us, too.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:24 pm#
Rich H Says:
Fuc* everyone that wants to deny care! Especially you independent shi*head.
Obviously a mental giant. Where did I say that I wanted to deny anyone healthcare? How about some more hyperbole??? Next someone call me a sheeple. Ofcourse the very act of doing that would prove that you yourself are that said sheeple.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:24 pmWhere will the choice be when there is rationing? There will be a choice but you will not make it. Your beloved Government will.
There is rationing NOW.
We give care to those most able to pay, not those most in need.
And that’s wrong and immoral.
Get it?
April 13th, 2009 at 2:24 pmhey, “indy”, you ignorant right wing coward:
we ARE the government
you right wingers are so dense
April 13th, 2009 at 2:25 pmI’m very sorry to hear that Gephardt has become so tainted by his corporate interests that he is willing to throw the vast number of desperately needful Americans under the bus.
When’s the last time he had to give up medical care because otherwise his family would not eat?
What an a**hole.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:25 pm*
Shoeless, I am working on it but, greed is not in my credo.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:25 pmindependent989 Says:
I ignore nothing.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
You are ignoring several questions put to you on the Tea Party thread. Why don’t you go and fail to answer them?
April 13th, 2009 at 2:26 pmebbAndflow Says:
watchdog Says:
Why are health care cost going up?
April 13th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
~~
Lobbyists ‘for-profit’ pharmaceutical companies and medical insurance companies.
You want Pharmaceutical companies to be non-profit? Are you joking? You want the Salvation Army mixing up your next vial of Cancer meds do ya??
April 13th, 2009 at 2:27 pmindy will never get it. his entire ideology depends on him not getting it. he is a right wing coward, and a typical one at that.
trying to educate him is pointless. best to just point and laugh at his endless parroting of right wing radio talking points (sponsored by health insurance corporations)
April 13th, 2009 at 2:28 pmlokidog Says:
Most people do not shop around for the best value based care because they are not incentified to do.
BS – most people don’t “shop around” because they would never get coverage (pre-existing condition,e. g.) and are locked into what they have.
I am talking about medical care, not insurance plans.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:28 pmLOL, no shock that “indy” is into tea-bagging
April 13th, 2009 at 2:28 pmthen you are deliberately missing the point
WE, and Obama, etc, are talking about MEDICAL INSURANCE, not medical care
you really are one dense right wing coward
April 13th, 2009 at 2:29 pmbela, we can`t get in the way of greed.Rx`s currently spend more on ads than they do in R&D.What cost a dollar in Europe cost $30 here, talk about subsidizing RX`s companies.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:30 pmYou want Pharmaceutical companies to be non-profit? Are you joking? You want the Salvation Army mixing up your next vial of Cancer meds do ya??
Pharmaceutical companies are far less innovative and far less efficient than you believe…
Penicillin was discovered without the benefit of big pharma but they did manage to give us several drugs to combat ‘erectile dysfunction’
Hooray for the free market!
When will we fund pure research?
April 13th, 2009 at 2:30 pmmisscoleopteramolly Says: @103
Wow – I work for a health insurance company and could never say it that well. Everything “bad” in the rightwing’s eyes about government run healthcare applies equally (more, in some cases) to the private sector.
If independent could see some of the people I have (making decisions) over 25+ years, he would beg for a “government bureaucrat” to handle his insurance needs.
Medicare works. And that angers the zealots of the right to no end.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:30 pmYou two are complete idiots. Have you ever been a victim of malpractice or know anybody who has? FYI it is almost impossible to get a malpractice attorney to take a case even when the doctor has been grossly negligent unless there is 100% chance that the patient would have survived in perfect condition if the doctor had acted appropriately. For example, if a cancer patient doesn’t get diagnosed or get the correct treatment a malpractice attorney is unlikely to take the case because he can’t often prove that the patient would have survived with proper care. It costs about $40k out of pocket for the attorney to prove his case and so they don’t go looking for iffy cases to prove because if they don’t win the money is out of their pockets. But you two morons keep believing all the talking points you are given.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:31 pmindy’s basic premise is:
allowing a corporation to dictate your healthcare based on their profit is ok
allowing elected officials that are accountable to the people to let doctors help you make your healthcare decisions is bad
yep, just another republican pansy pretending to be “independent”
not. fooling. anyone.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:32 pmIndependent 989, have you ever had a catastrophic illness in your family, and if so, did your insurance company come through for you as they promised?
April 13th, 2009 at 2:34 pmThen why are the people in countries with Universal health care so much more satisfied with their health care systems, watchdog?
April 13th, 2009 at 2:37 pmThere will always be doctors who provide care for patients who pay cash for their expenses. Nobody is saying that people who can afford to pay for treatment shouldn’t be allowed to do so. How do you think people get plastic surgery. Insurance pays for almost none of it.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:37 pmwow, watchdog, after reading all the facts against your position, you STILL try to cling to it
most people would be embarrassed to continue after getting beat down so hard by facts
I guess you right wing pansies have no shame
April 13th, 2009 at 2:37 pmWhere will the choice be when there is rationing? There will be a choice but you will not make it. Your beloved Government will.
Please supply examples of this problem of rationing. There are several countries with far higher quality than ours. Please supply evidence. If you don’t have it, than you are just fearmongering.
and my beloved Government has given you roads to drive on, water to drink, and more services to you than you and I can both come up with, and you still continue the gross oversimplification of Government=bad/ineffective/etc.? Tell me, would all of this run far smoother if privatized?
The whole foundation of your argument taken to its logical end would have everyone completely exploited for profit for every aspect of their lives. Government is not perfect, but it’s already been stated that we are a democracy, and we have the ability to keep changing and improving. All corporations would want to do- and what they continue to do- is figure out how to make the most money, and if that can be done by coercion, they don’t care. That’s the system you want?
Keep muttering about the State and government though, you don’t have anything to fall back on but your fearmongering.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:40 pmRantingTommy Says:
independent989 Says:
lokidog Says:
Most people do not shop around for the best value based care because they are not incentified to do.
BS – most people don’t “shop around” because they would never get coverage (pre-existing condition,e. g.) and are locked into what they have.
I am talking about medical care, not insurance plans.
then you are deliberately missing the point
WE, and Obama, etc, are talking about MEDICAL INSURANCE, not medical care
you really are one dense right wing coward
You are truly a shining example of today’s progressive thinker.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:42 pmlol, “indy” is such a tool
enjoy your ignorance, it IS your most prized possession
April 13th, 2009 at 2:42 pmok, time to get on the road.
you guys say hi to “indy”, if he decides to come back and spout more “rushisms”
he may have run off in a fit though, after being proven SO wrong
April 13th, 2009 at 2:42 pmSo you want to go to the cheapest doctor? Not the best or smartest doctor or hospital with the best chance of a positive outcome. You want to go to the hack with budget prices. I asked you before and you ignored me. You don’t have any health insurance or have never had to use it have you?
April 13th, 2009 at 2:43 pmwatchdog Says:
You ignore the FACT that health insurance companies are organized for profit, and that they make money by not providing care if they can possibly avoid it. How is this better than having clearly-defined guidelines and pharmacopia?
False, They make money by selling policies.
You don’t even understand simple capitalism, do you? You honestly think that gross income = making money? In realityworld, expenses come out of gross income and reduce it. There is no net income if expenses equal or are greater than gross income. In other words, they make no money if they’re paying out more in benefits than they take in.
And, clearly, you’ve never actually dealt with an HMO or a health insurance provider.
And you have yet to explain how medical care in Western Europe and Canada has been inferior to US health care other than unsubstantiated comments about how “it just is.”
The system gets over uses and crowded. Longer waits for procedures, and physician visits.
Longer waits for some means that *EVERYONE* gets health care. So what?
April 13th, 2009 at 2:44 pmYou’ve never had to use an emergency room have you. You can go in with full health insurance coverage and have to wait an average of 4 hours because so many people with no money and no coverage have nowhere else to go but the emergency room.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:44 pmindependent989 Says:
Why do you think people are so much more satisfied with their health care in countries with UNIVERSAL health care, independent?
How do you explain the lower health care costs in those countries?
Thanks.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:45 pmYou’ve got nothing because you know nothing.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:48 pmDo you think we NEED all those plastic surgeons in private practice, independent?
The ‘market’ says we do… but the people dying because of a shortage of general surgeons say something else… how is that ‘choice’ good for America?
April 13th, 2009 at 2:49 pmbelaccifer lacca Says:
You want Pharmaceutical companies to be non-profit? Are you joking? You want the Salvation Army mixing up your next vial of Cancer meds do ya??
Pharmaceutical companies are far less innovative and far less efficient than you believe…
Penicillin was discovered without the benefit of big pharma but they did manage to give us several drugs to combat ‘erectile dysfunction’
Hooray for the free market!
When will we fund pure research?
And why did Penicillin get distributed? To make those distributing it money. Or has no one made any money from Penicillin?
April 13th, 2009 at 2:49 pmYo Independent shi*head,
You’ve stated more than once it’s just a matter of money. F off. I made plenty before I got sick and couldn’t work. Oh yeah, then there’s Cobra for people in my position. Except it costs about 4 times what I was paying When I Had An Income.
I can’t wait till something disasterous happens to you or someone in your family – and it will, it’s just the odds. Then see how you feel.
My first statement about you remains the same.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:49 pmWhy is it other country`s model their health care on our medicare and V.A, because they work.When people complain in other country`s about long waits for surgery it`s elective surgery not life saving surgery.In Canada everyone rich or poor has the same coverage and no favoritism of the rich over the poor or middle class.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:50 pmmisscoleopteramolly Says:
By your standards, one could consider education a “service”, too. Yet, we recognize that giving everyone a basic education makes us a better country, so we do. Keeping our population healthy benefits all of us, too.
So where do you get the best education today? Public schools or private schools? Enough said.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:51 pmAnd why did Penicillin get distributed? To make those distributing it money. Or has no one made any money from Penicillin?
Umm, Governments distributed it pretty successfully during World War II…
April 13th, 2009 at 2:52 pmSo where do you get the best education today? Public schools or private schools? Enough said.
Again- rationing by ability to pay and not need.
Where do you get the brightest and most deserving students? Private Schools? Hardly… enough said.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:53 pmWhy is you guys from the Reich have issues with morals vs money and money wins every time with you people.You Reich wingers are wrong and inhuman when $$$$ wins and humanity loses.You`ll protect a fetus to the hilt but once the baby is born he/she is on their own and good luck in your life.Your Reich wing christian theocracy will not work in this country any longer as long as we have our 1st Amendment.You guys are gutless, soulless and heartless people and your hypocrisy is appalling.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:55 pmindependent989 Says:
It isn’t a right. It is a service. You haven’t answered my question that I posed. “Is it moral to ration healthcare? Is it moral to have a board decide who gets life saving treatment and who does not?”
I’m sorry, but I believe that our health is a right and not a “service”.
No, it is not moral to ration healthcare, and that is what the for-profit health care industry does on a daily basis. When my COBRA runs out, I will not be able to get health insurance because I am over 50 and have a pre-existing condition.
And no, it is not moral to have a board decide who gets life saving treatment any more than it is moral for some suit in a health insurance office deciding what life-saving treatment we can get. And they do it on a daily basis. There was a woman who testified before Congress that she got a bonus based on how often she denied a claim for benefits.
Was your question implying that these things would happen with universal health care? Because if that’s what you meant, you are wrong. Under a universal system everyone will be eligible for health care and what treatment you get will be based on what your doctor recommends. It will not be based on making the bottom line look better for a for-profit health insurance company.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:56 pmgummble-bee-itch Says
April 13th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Longer waits for some means that *EVERYONE* gets health care. So what?
__________________________________________________________
And I wouldn’t be so quick to assume that a universal health care system automatically means longer waits, even though that’s what today’s health insurance providers (and the wingnuts) want you to believe.
I had a chance to talk to a friend in Canada recently when she was down for a visit, and naturally I grabbed the opportunity to ask her about Canadian health care — specifically if she had to wait a long time for appointments or if she had ever been denied any procedures for her or her children she felt were warranted. Nope, she said. She has encountered only a couple of occasions where her doctor was booked up to the point where she had to wait two or three weeks for an appointment, but she said that was on a par with (or often better than) what she experienced when she lived in the U.S. before she got married to a Canadian.
Let me also point out that my husband, who’s on Medicare (a GOVERNMENT program) doesn’t have to wait for appointments or procedures any longer than I do — and I’m insured by a for-profit company. In fact, he’s actually better off than I am, since he isn’t limited by a network or “preferred providers” — he can go to pretty much anyone he wants to.
We need to show this rightwing meme for the myth it is, until there’s some real proof otherwise.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:56 pmindependant shi*head wants to know where to get the best education.
My guess is since he disparages them he went to a public school.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:57 pmHmmm. I wonder who would be more responsive to my needs?
My duly elected representative that needs my vote and the votes of others in my similar circumstances, OR the CEO of a multinational corporation who, if they delay medical treatment for me or my family, stands to gain in the event of my death.
I think I would take my chances with my elected representative.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:57 pmI remember a time when Blue Cross and Blue Shield were NON-Profit…
And medical decisions were made by the doctor, not the insurance PPO sliding scales.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:59 pmLiberty,Amen on that one, for sure.
April 13th, 2009 at 2:59 pmindependent989 Says:
So where do you get the best education today? Public schools or private schools? Enough said.
This is not necessarily true. Well funded and well run public schools hold their own with private schools. The problem with our public schools is that they are not adequately funded and haven’t been for years now.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:00 pmWhat did you expect Tommy? This is the moron who says I should finance cancer surgery by having a yard sale.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:00 pmDoodlebug Shayne Says:
independent989 Says:
lokidog Says:
Most people do not shop around for the best value based care because they are not incentified to do.
BS – most people don’t “shop around” because they would never get coverage (pre-existing condition,e. g.) and are locked into what they have.
I am talking about medical care, not insurance plans.
So you want to go to the cheapest doctor? Not the best or smartest doctor or hospital with the best chance of a positive outcome. You want to go to the hack with budget prices. I asked you before and you ignored me. You don’t have any health insurance or have never had to use it have you?
I do have health insurance and I did not say the cheapest doctor. I said the Doctor that provides the most value. That is comparing quality of care with cost.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:01 pmThe public schools in my community are the best money can buy. They offer way more programs and services than any of the private schools around here. If you have money you can buy a home in a community with plenty of money to pay for great public schools. People who fit easily into the top 5% of income earners send their kids to my daughter’s public school which is now installing $6 million in astroturf for the two sister schools.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:01 pmmisscoleopteramolly Says:
gummble-bee-itch Says
April 13th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Longer waits for some means that *EVERYONE* gets health care. So what?
__________________________________________________________
And I wouldn’t be so quick to assume that a universal health care system automatically means longer waits, even though that’s what today’s health insurance providers (and the wingnuts) want you to believe.
I just went over this with a friend who lives in the UK. He mentioned that his wife was changing jobs and might lose her medical benefit, which seemed odd to me. He explained that, yes, she was covered under NHS but the medical benefit allowed her “to jump the queue.”
However, the same phenomenon exists here. People with lots of benefit pay for “boutique care” because they don’t want to wait even as much as those of us with good health care benefits have to wait — it takes, for instance, about two months for me to get in for a regular exam, and my health care is about as good as it gets.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:01 pmLiberty,What really astounds me is the talking heads from the Reich will continue to shill for the CEO`s and against Gov`t, so I can assume no Reich winger ever was a Veteran who needed V.A care or elderly that needed medicare because their all wealthy.The blue collar Reich wingers of this country continue to vote against themselves every time, they love big money but they don`t have any of it and that`s what is making me ROTFL.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:04 pmThat is comparing quality of care with cost.
And the satisfaction with the quality of care in countries with UNIVERSAL health care is much, much higher.
And the costs are much, much lower.
How do you explain that, independent?
April 13th, 2009 at 3:04 pm“It is immoral to have people without health insurance”
No, it’s immoral to have people unable to obain health care SERVICES. The only people who believe health INSURACE is required are the insurance COMPANIES who are currently making maoney hand over fist in both premiums AND bail outs
April 13th, 2009 at 3:05 pmAnd you don’t think the best quality of care is the most expensive? You get what you pay for.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:06 pmdeserved to be repeated with emphasis
April 13th, 2009 at 3:06 pmgummble-bee-itch Says
April 13th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Longer waits for some means that *EVERYONE* gets health care. So what?
If we end up with a program like the one in England, where my sister lives, the wait is only for non-emergency care. If you have an immediate need, you are seen immediately. My sister needed an operation on her knee. She had to wait for 6 months to get it done. But, it didn’t matter to her because her knee wouldn’t get worse in the 6 months.
The one thing my sister loves about their plan is the preventative care even though sometimes it can be intrusive. She is reminded on a regular basis when she is due for things like a mammogram, etc. And once, when she went two years without getting her mammogram, a public health nurse came to her door to prod her to get in and get it done.
When my sister’s relationship went south on her, she considered coming back to the states, after being in England for 10 years. Her decision to stay was based on health care and the fact that her government would provide for her if she was in need. She didn’t mind paying 50% of her income into taxes because she realized she got way more than that back. Those taxes guaranteed her a livable pension when she retired and never having to worry about health care.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:07 pmJust how many ‘Joe Liebermans’ are there in the Democratic Party?
April 13th, 2009 at 3:07 pmindependent989 Says:
How do you compare prices/shop for an unknown?
If you go to an MD to get diagnosed, you’re not sure what tests, xrays, etc. will be required, if any. So saying you want to “compare prices” or “shop” beforehand is ludicrous.
Not to mention crazy. I can see someone near death from a car accident, e.g., telling the ambulance driver to “shop around” first.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:09 pmAmen Bilbo, How`s thing`s in the Shire these days.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:09 pmAnd what if you have one medical group/hospital in your town? Go to the next town? What if the same company runs that medical operation as well?
And what happens when your insurance provider hasn’t ’struck a deal’ with the provider in your town? Yeah, health care isn’t rationed and HMO’s and insurance companies aren’t telling you who you can see.
I ain’t auto insurance, indy.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:10 pmdelafield, to damn many blue dogs running around……where`s the dog catcher when you need him.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:11 pmindependent989 Says:
I do have health insurance and I did not say the cheapest doctor. I said the Doctor that provides the most value. That is comparing quality of care with cost.
So what insurance plan do you have where you can choose the best doctor that provides the best value? Every insurance plan I have ever been on allowed you to pick from a set number of “preferred” providers and all of them were paid at the same rate by the insurance company. If I want to have a doctor outside their plan, I pay approximately half of the cost rather than a $20 co-pay. So, I really don’t have a lot of choice in what doctor I see, do I?
Remember Harry and Lousie? Well funny thing happened. Everything the health insurance industry warned us would happen if we had a government run health care plan happened anyway, and they were the ones who did it to us.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:12 pmHoodathunktick Says:
And what if you have one medical group/hospital in your town? Go to the next town? What if the same company runs that medical operation as well?
Excellent point – hospitals are being bought up and brought under one owner/consolidated much too often. Not a good thing.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:14 pmchristopher wiwi Says:
Amen Bilbo, How`s thing`s in the Shire these days.
Not too good. I really hate being unemployed. I’m one of those weird people who really like to work. I’m also concerned about my future. But mostly I am grateful that I have no debt and have no dependents. That makes my financial state less perilous than many others. I am trying very hard to remain upbeat and be grateful for the things I have.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:15 pmindependent989 Says:
Healthcare is now “FREE” so everyone now has the ability to get a heart transplant(HT) whenever they want. The # of people getting a HT skyrockets and demand outstrips supply. So you are 60 and need a heart translplant and so does a guy who is 25. But because of rationing there is only one heart to be had. Who get’s it? You have now lost control and given it to a board who decides who get’s it and who doesn’t. You who is 60 and about to start collecting SS in the next few years or the 25 yr old who has 40 years left to pay taxes? Who get’s it? That is the problem. No matter how much money you have, you will never get that heart. There is no secondary market, there is no privately run healthcare anywhere.
This may rank as the single most ignorant thing I’ve seen anybody post here. Even leaving aside the fact this this guy seems to think there is a secondary market for hearts, or that universal coverage will lead to droves of folks getting heart transplants for the heck of it, he has no concept of how the system works now. The organ itself is allocated according to region and medical criteria to the nearest person who need it most. The problem is, if you have no insurance coverage you will never be placed on the transplant list. Without demonstrating ability to pay, and the ability to pay for care and medication for life, no medical facility will list you. The uninsured have 0% chance of receiving that heart. I had an infant who needed a heart transplant and met many mothers in the same situation. The uninsured took their babies home to die.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:16 pmYou asked what was immoral about our current system, independent?
Here’s your answer:
OutstandingInAPlagueOfLocusts Says: The uninsured took their babies home to die.
If only they’d had a Garage Sale, huh?
April 13th, 2009 at 3:18 pmYou guys are sick…
Didn’t you tell her that socialism is bad?
April 13th, 2009 at 3:18 pmBilbo, Sorry your not working, I would be out of my if I was in your shoes.Stay positive, there is light at the end of the tunnel.If your like me you must be to young to retire and to damn old for schooling.Good luck and I can assume you`ll be in touch on TP.
Chris
April 13th, 2009 at 3:19 pmIf we had a national health care program we might be able to come up with a cure for the epidemic sweeping Congress. It’s an insidious disease, contracted by contact with special interest groups called Allzliars. The exposure to excess money seems to cause terminal loss of memory and brain function.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:20 pmchristopher wiwi Says:
Liberty,What really astounds me is the talking heads from the Reich will continue to shill for the CEO`s and against Gov`t, so I can assume no Reich winger ever was a Veteran who needed V.A care or elderly that needed medicare because their all wealthy.The blue collar Reich wingers of this country continue to vote against themselves every time, they love big money but they don`t have any of it and that`s what is making me ROTFL.
—
It doesn’t make me laugh, it makes me sad that they are so deluded.
What makes me laugh, is the people still trying to say that the so-called “Free market” will solve all of our problems….
Well, the bank bailouts are a direct result of unregulated free markets. I’d prefer not to have to bail out the health care insurance companies as well.
If the fundamental concept of insurance is that it balances costs across a large, random sample of individuals, then why is it so hard for people to understand that the larger the risk pool, comprised of healthy AND ill people, then the costs will be defrayed across the board.
And all of our health care costs go down.
As it stands, Emergency rooms are the most expensive form of Health care, but that is what we all have to pick up the slack for when uninsured people have to go for delayed treatment that could have be taken care of with routine care at a smaller cost.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:20 pmLiberty,Their not deluded their “SHEEPLE” remember?
April 13th, 2009 at 3:22 pmwatchdog Says:
The system gets over uses and crowded. Longer waits for procedures, and physician visits.
Actually that is not true. Look at countries with universal health care. If you look at the statistics, they use their benefits less than we do. And you know why? Because they know it is there when they need it and because their systems provide for preventative care so they don’t end up sick with something that can be avoided.
And please don’t talk to me about long waits. I made an appointment to see my physician the other day and I am having to wait 3 weeks to see her. I have a friend who needed hip replacement surgery and the earliest she could get it was four months from the date the decision was made.
Personally, I have no problem waiting for a procedure that is not life threatening if that means that all my fellow citizens have health care available to them.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:22 pmOutstandingInAPlagueOfLocusts,
That’s a real tragedy.
When I was a kid (back around 1970) one of our neighbors kids, the same age as me had a heart tranplant – or surgery anyhow I don’t exactly recall. But he did like to show off the enormous scar that ran down the middle of his chest.
Anyhow, his father was a local private contractor. I don’t know what he made but we lived in a small town and he probably did as well as everyone else.
I wonder why insurance and care was so much better then.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:25 pmshoeless Chilopoda Says:
Bilbo Hussein Baggins Says:
——————————————————————————–
She didn’t mind paying 50% of her income into taxes because she realized she got way more than that back. Those taxes guaranteed her a livable pension when she retired and never having to worry about health care.
Didn’t you tell her that socialism is bad?
And why would I do that. She made her choice to stay in England because she knows that some forms of socialism are good for her and for her fellow citizens. My sister has benefited from living in England. Not only does she not have to worry about her financial future, England paid for my niece’s college education. They have a system whereby if you graduate and get good scores on your college testing entrance exams, England, in partnership with private industry, will pay for your advanced education. My niece was into sciences and Kodak was her private industry sponsor. The only requirement for her was that she had to work for Kodak for 3 years after she graduated. Here she is 15 years later still working for Kodak in a well paid managerial position. If she had been in the USA when she was of age to go to college, I doubt she would have made it. My sister was always a waitress and never would have had the money to send my niece to college.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:26 pmIn summary of everyone’s points and questions:
independent and watchdog are officially schooled.
and i always appreciate hearing about the experiences of other people in universal healthcare countries. there’s a ridiculous amount of misinformation in the U.S. that people just eat up.
And I’m so tired of the cycle of dismantling public services = an increasingly disenfranchised public = easier and increased dismantling/deregulation = more disenfranchised….
The ‘free market’ is nothing but poorly rationalized cynical elitism.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:27 pmchristopher wiwi,
Too many Democrats in Congress stabbed President Clinton in the back as well when he campaigned for Universal Health Care.
America should have had Universal Health Care system 15 years ago.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:28 pmbelaccifer lacca Says:
Do you think we NEED all those plastic surgeons in private practice, independent?
The ‘market’ says we do… but the people dying because of a shortage of general surgeons say something else… how is that ‘choice’ good for America?
Oh good so let’s get gov to make them be the doctor YOU think they should be. Another shot in the arm for Freedom.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:29 pmThon Hartman told an interesting story the other day.
He and his family were visiting friends in England. His child developed a very painful ear infection one night. His friend told him to call the local clinic. It was 10:45 pm, and the doctor told him that his shift eneded at 11 pm, and he would stop by on his way home. The doctor came to the apartment, examined the child and gave antibiotics to Thom, in order to cure the infection. There was no charge, and the doctor was happy to have been able to help.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:29 pmI’m sorry, Thom Hartman.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:30 pmRich H Says:
Yo Independent shi*head,
You’ve stated more than once it’s just a matter of money. F off. I made plenty before I got sick and couldn’t work. Oh yeah, then there’s Cobra for people in my position. Except it costs about 4 times what I was paying When I Had An Income.
I can’t wait till something disasterous happens to you or someone in your family – and it will, it’s just the odds. Then see how you feel.
My first statement about you remains the same.
You had money, you paid you lived. Now you do not have money but you do have your life. Which is more important. Just because we have Gov healthcare does not necessarilly mean cost will go down. It just means that I subsidize your lifestyle. With gov healthcare, the same amount of money will be paid but instead of you losing all of your $ to pay for your healthcare, I will have to subsidize you. Why is that fair?
April 13th, 2009 at 3:31 pmI’d bet all those red staters who got hit with tornadoes last week think the government should give them money to restore their communities. Don’t they know that’s socialism and it’s bad?
April 13th, 2009 at 3:32 pmbelaccifer lacca Says:
So where do you get the best education today? Public schools or private schools? Enough said.
Again- rationing by ability to pay and not need.
Where do you get the brightest and most deserving students? Private Schools? Hardly… enough said.
You didn’t answer my question.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:32 pmindependent shi*head
Can’t explain morally why it’s o.k. to deny care. He can only do it with $$ signs. I wonder if I.S. is some guy who has this mistaken version of christianity that says if you do well it’s because God is pleased with you and if you do poorly it’s because your not in God’s favor.
As hard as it is to understand any ill-logic from I.S. to him the $$$ point of view makes sense.
Where are you morally on denying healthcare?
April 13th, 2009 at 3:33 pmBilbo,Egads ! socialism, that`s just crazy, all that gov`t bureaucracy, paying taxes, college sponsorship all that in tiny little old Britain.Sounds good where do my family and I sign up? To many damn re-pukes,Blue Dogs and greedy CEO`s getting in the way of progress here.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:34 pmOh good so let’s get gov to make them be the doctor YOU think they should be. Another shot in the arm for Freedom.
No.
There will be enough Plastic Surgeons in private practice… Hollywood will still have money.
But if we pay General Surgeons what they deserve perhaps less will desert the public sector for private practice. See, we’ll ‘incentivize’ the surgeons to go to rural hospitals with decent pay and cheap schooling.
Another shot in the arm for a healthier and free America!
April 13th, 2009 at 3:34 pmBilbo Hussein Baggins Says:
independent989 Says:
It isn’t a right. It is a service. You haven’t answered my question that I posed. “Is it moral to ration healthcare? Is it moral to have a board decide who gets life saving treatment and who does not?”
I’m sorry, but I believe that our health is a right and not a “service”.
Well you are wrong.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:34 pmYou didn’t answer my question.
Actually, I did.
You’ve answered none of mine.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:35 pmYou are truly and ignorant a$$hole who needs to be flagged. He had a job, he had insurance, he could get treatment. Now there are no jobs, COBRA is a ridiculous cost and if he gets sick he won’t get treatment. GET IT? I’m sure you live in one of those red states that gets more money than they pay in. Why should blue staters have to subsidize a bunch of good for nothing rubes like you because you’re too dumb to improve your state? I’m tired of subsidizing you hicks.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:36 pmOh good so let’s get gov to make them be the doctor YOU think they should be. Another shot in the arm for Freedom.
With freedom comes responsibility. What’s the larger tragedy? A doctor who is unable to become a plastic surgeon for an immense profit? Or the people who possibly died due to a lack of skilled surgeon?
How far are you willing to take this simplistic definition of freedom? So much has been given to you by people who’ve worked their ass off for the greater good, and you cry over the loss of this choice? Disgusting, and un-American. How far the right-wing has devolved into total selfishness. Even trying to prop it up as an American value.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:37 pmIt`s nice to see that RED state socialism is alive and well and yet they wonder who pays for the commons in those RED states…….
April 13th, 2009 at 3:38 pmndependent989 Says:
I did and you ignored me. It’s obvious you didn’t receive a decent education because your thinking skills are non-existent. Private or public? Most likely homeschooled.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:39 pmI don’t drive a car, why must I pay taxes that are used for roads & bridges to subsidize your car-centric lifestyle?
I don’t have a kid in school, why must I pay property taxes that go to schools?
See, it’s a ridiculous question on its face. You could take it to its logical conclusion and justify your opposition to ANY taxes or spending.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:39 pmlokidog Says:
independent989 Says:
How do you compare prices/shop for an unknown?
If you go to an MD to get diagnosed, you’re not sure what tests, xrays, etc. will be required, if any. So saying you want to “compare prices” or “shop” beforehand is ludicrous.
Not to mention crazy. I can see someone near death from a car accident, e.g., telling the ambulance driver to “shop around” first.
Your example is ludicrous. The majority of healthcare visits do not start with an ambulance. You would be sure of what X-rays, exams and such would cost if they were publicly published in a menu of services. You would then have companies who would compile that info along with reviews of service and you would create a marketplace. Why is that so wrong??
April 13th, 2009 at 3:39 pmThe bottom line is I.S. thinks healthcare is a service, not a right.
Yo dumbas* mofo I have no problem paying taxes – which I still do – and have that money (or a portion of it) go to medicaide.
Why do you think it’s o.k to deny care?
You know what, I don’t want to know. I don’t want to know your answer or you personally. You must be a real pleasure to be around.
All of your friends in perfect health? When they’re not are you still going to spout this same bullshi*?
F off and post somewhere else you moronic fool. You are outnumbered and wrong. You have no more morals than a worm under a rock.
Take a hike.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:40 pmAnd you are a typical reichwing ditto head, selfish, greedy and stupid.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:41 pmWhy is that so wrong??
Because treatment should not be a choice… you shouldn’t have to pick, “Well, I got the pap smear last time… I guess I’ll skip that and get the mammogram today.”
It’s not lunch.
It’s health care.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:42 pmI meant to say you should not have to ‘choose’ between your treatments or tests, not that treatment should not be a choice.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:43 pmI would rather listen to my dog’s farts than the callous, pay-to-play, heartless drivel of an troll like indy.
I know neither one can help themselves but at least my dog looks embarrassed.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:43 pmIndependent, have you explained why costs are down and satisfaction up in countries with universal health care coverage yet?
And why we should ignore that fact and develop a ‘menu’ of coverage in the name of ‘freedom?’
April 13th, 2009 at 3:44 pmWhy don’t you ask the labs, doctors and hospitals to make these fees public? Not just what the public with no insurance pays but what your insurance company would pay. They all pay different rates with the public paying the highest. Go ahead, ask them to make these rates public. Idiot.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:44 pmindependent989 Says:
Your example is ludicrous. The majority of healthcare visits do not start with an ambulance. You would be sure of what X-rays, exams and such would cost if they were publicly published in a menu of services. You would then have companies who would compile that info along with reviews of service and you would create a marketplace. Why is that so wrong??
Not so much wrong as it is stupid. You’re complaining about having a bureaucrat determine what services you can get and at the same time you think you’re qualified to decide what treatment you should get? Based on a menu?
This is what happens when your ideology paints you into a corner. Your answers just get more stupid.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:45 pmbelaccifer lacca Says:
Oh good so let’s get gov to make them be the doctor YOU think they should be. Another shot in the arm for Freedom.
No.
There will be enough Plastic Surgeons in private practice… Hollywood will still have money.
But if we pay General Surgeons what they deserve perhaps less will desert the public sector for private practice. See, we’ll ‘incentivize’ the surgeons to go to rural hospitals with decent pay and cheap schooling.
Another shot in the arm for a healthier and free America!
So how much does a General Surgeon deserve? I would say that the market will determine that. IF there are too many plastic surgeons and not enough general surgeons, then the cost of services for Plastics will go down and the cost of service for General Surgeons will go up. That is how a market works.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:46 pm#
Doodlebug Shayne Says:
ndependent989 Says:
belaccifer lacca Says:
So where do you get the best education today? Public schools or private schools? Enough said.
Again- rationing by ability to pay and not need.
Where do you get the brightest and most deserving students? Private Schools? Hardly… enough said.
You didn’t answer my question.
I did and you ignored me. It’s obvious you didn’t receive a decent education because your thinking skills are non-existent. Private or public? Most likely homeschooled.
Agreed homeschooling, which is a private form of education. I am glad you have seen the light. Next….
April 13th, 2009 at 3:49 pmThat is how a market works.
No.
The ‘market’ says that poorer communities cannot afford to pay General Surgeons enough to cover their student loan debt.
So they go into private practice in Southern California… are they needed there? Has the cost of plastic surgery in Southern California going down had any effect on the price that rural Oklahoma can pay a general surgeon?
No???
That’s strange… maybe we need a different system.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:50 pmwags camponotus saundersi Says:
It just means that I subsidize your lifestyle.
I don’t drive a car, why must I pay taxes that are used for roads & bridges to subsidize your car-centric lifestyle?
You don’t if you do not buy gas.
I don’t have a kid in school, why must I pay property taxes that go to schools?
You shouldn’t have too. Glad to see you believe in School Choice as well.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:50 pmSniff. Sniff. Isn’t there anyway to keep trolls from eating their own droppings?
April 13th, 2009 at 3:51 pmRich H Says:
The bottom line is I.S. thinks healthcare is a service, not a right.
Yo dumbas* mofo I have no problem paying taxes – which I still do – and have that money (or a portion of it) go to medicaide.
Why do you think it’s o.k to deny care?
You know what, I don’t want to know. I don’t want to know your answer or you personally. You must be a real pleasure to be around.
All of your friends in perfect health? When they’re not are you still going to spout this same bullshi*?
F off and post somewhere else you moronic fool. You are outnumbered and wrong. You have no more morals than a worm under a rock.
Take a hike.
Well you are half right. I am outnumbered. And you my friend, have not been able to put one cogent argument together all day. Consider yourself on ignore. Go back to watching Ellen or the View or whatever idiotic thing takes up the empty expanse of your life. Don’t worry, welfare checks will be there soon. You’ll have plenty of $$$ for your Brass Monkey and Cheese Doodles.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:54 pmGlad to see you like taking things people say and interpreting them to mean the opposite of what they meant.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:54 pmI think the following statement answers your question.
Let the record show that right-wingers are in favor of medical bankrupcies. Of course, there are other options. You could get rich, or have that yard sale.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:55 pmIndy, what ever your tokin on Give me some because man you and your FREE MARKET bull$hit is a hoot.Get with it Ray Gun nomics sucks,NAFTA sucks,our trade imbalance sucks and so does your Republiscum ideology/dogma.It has not worked yet and will never work because it is class warfare and “we the people” have taken it in the @$$ for the last 29 years and it has got to stop or we will be a third world nation sooner than you think!!!!
April 13th, 2009 at 3:56 pmindependent… why do we pay MORE for health care and have LESS satisfaction with the ’service’ than countries with UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE?
I look forward to reading your ‘cogent argument’ on this point.
April 13th, 2009 at 3:56 pmbelaccifer lacca Says:
Independent, have you explained why costs are down and satisfaction up in countries with universal health care coverage yet?
And why we should ignore that fact and develop a ‘menu’ of coverage in the name of ‘freedom?’
I am afraid that I can not accept your premise without data. Where did you get your facts from?
April 13th, 2009 at 3:59 pmI have seen a lot those numbers lately. It looks to me that insurance companies pay doctors and hospitals about 1/3 of what an individual would be charged.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:01 pmindependent989 Says:
I am afraid that I can not accept your premise without data. Where did you get your facts from?
A little place I found called FOX NEWS reported on the study…
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,136990,00.html
April 13th, 2009 at 4:01 pmIndependent shi*head,
Being mostly out of work and working part time I’d bet I’ve paid more taxes in the past ten years than you’ve paid in your entire misfortunate life. That includes business taxes (yes I have one), personal taxes and property taxes. So F Off.
I’d rather my taxes went to fund healthcare for all instead of some fuc*ing war you undoubtably support.
You are the most ignorant of trolls. You get slapped and come back for more. You are nothing but a piece of shi*.
ESAD.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:02 pm#
gummble-bee-itch Says:
independent989 Says:
Your example is ludicrous. The majority of healthcare visits do not start with an ambulance. You would be sure of what X-rays, exams and such would cost if they were publicly published in a menu of services. You would then have companies who would compile that info along with reviews of service and you would create a marketplace. Why is that so wrong??
Not so much wrong as it is stupid. You’re complaining about having a bureaucrat determine what services you can get and at the same time you think you’re qualified to decide what treatment you should get? Based on a menu?
This is what happens when your ideology paints you into a corner. Your answers just get more stupid.
I am not talking about self diagnosing, but somehow I think that you know that. I am saying that once you find out what is wrong and what treatments are necessary, then you could compare the costs and results among a large number of specialists and determine which one makes the most value added sense. Instead of just going to the guy down the street because, well he’s down the street.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:02 pmshoeless Chilopoda Says:
Rich H Says:
——————————————————————————–
independent shi*head
Where are you morally on denying healthcare?
I think the following statement answers your question.
independent989 Says:
——————————————————————————–
…instead of you losing all of your $ to pay for your healthcare, I will have to subsidize you. Why is that fair?
Let the record show that right-wingers are in favor of medical bankrupcies.
I agree with you I am.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:04 pmbelaccifer lacca Says:
independent… why do we pay MORE for health care and have LESS satisfaction with the ’service’ than countries with UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE?
I look forward to reading your ‘cogent argument’ on this point.
See 214
April 13th, 2009 at 4:06 pmindependent- see 51 and 216…
April 13th, 2009 at 4:07 pmshoeless Chilopoda Says:
Doodlebug Shayne Says:
——————————————————————————–
independent989 Says:
Your example is ludicrous. The majority of healthcare visits do not start with an ambulance. You would be sure of what X-rays, exams and such would cost if they were publicly published in a menu of services. You would then have companies who would compile that info along with reviews of service and you would create a marketplace. Why is that so wrong??
Why don’t you ask the labs, doctors and hospitals to make these fees public? Not just what the public with no insurance pays but what your insurance company would pay. They all pay different rates with the public paying the highest. Go ahead, ask them to make these rates public. Idiot.
I have seen a lot those numbers lately. It looks to me that insurance companies pay doctors and hospitals about 1/3 of what an individual would be charged.
Yes because the insurance companies are shopping the free market unlike the rest of us.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:07 pmLet`s see medicare at a 2 to 3 percent overhead vs paying a CEO millions of my hard earned dollars…….forget about it,I`ll take medicare or any other Gov`t run plan any day.Socialism works and yet the re-pukes will say or try anything to refute it.What a HOOT they are.Just look at the commons and tell me Socialism/gov`t does not work,Hell look at Milwaukee it`s the capitol of American Socialism and they let it be known.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:08 pm… and any major study on health care costs in industrialized nations… or just ask someone from Canada or Germany if they’d swap systems with you…
April 13th, 2009 at 4:09 pmYes because the insurance companies are shopping the free market unlike the rest of us.
No.
Because insurance companies are buying in bulk an demanding discounts.
That’s the essence of shared risk and why a universal health care system would have even LOWER costs. A bigger pool.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:10 pmindependent989 Says:
I am not talking about self diagnosing, but somehow I think that you know that. I am saying that once you find out what is wrong and what treatments are necessary, then you could compare the costs and results among a large number of specialists and determine which one makes the most value added sense. Instead of just going to the guy down the street because, well he’s down the street.
This isn’t like shopping for a car. How do you determine relative “value” between specialists? I recently had knee surgery and the orthopedic surgeon was someone recommended by my GP. Should I have shopped around among a number of other surgeons, and what should I have known in order to do so? I had an MRI before diagnosis. Should I have shopped around among radiologists? Oh, and there was an x-ray as well. Shopped that one, too? And I guess I should have demanded a list of anesthesiologists with Consumer Reports info on each of them. Of course, the “value” of my surgeon was that he was actually available, and it turned out that he could perform the surgery less than a week after diagnosis. Do I need to chart that as well?
In point of fact, most of this judgment is done for me by a private health insurance company — exactly as it would be done if I lived in the UK and was covered by NHS.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:11 pmbelaccifer lacca Says:
independent989 Says:
I am afraid that I can not accept your premise without data. Where did you get your facts from?
A little place I found called FOX NEWS reported on the study…
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,136990,00.html
OK so this is from that story:
“In no country is the majority of adults satisfied,” says Cathy Schoen, a vice president at the Commonwealth Fund (search), a nonprofit group that conducted surveys of some 7,000 patients in the five countries.
Again looking for facts.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:12 pmBut where are they ‘most satisfied’ independent?
And where are they ‘least satisfied?’
And who pays the most?
Again, just looking for the facts…
April 13th, 2009 at 4:12 pmthis is from the story as well independent:
Rationing!!!
April 13th, 2009 at 4:14 pmYou are also a very bad person. Millions of Americans are forced to declare medical bankruptciy through no fault of their own. Disgusting right-wing heartless pigs like yourself could care less. In civilized countries, medical bankruptcy is unknown, and inconceivable.
I’m done with you. What is the point in arguing with someone with no conscience and no morals. You make me sick.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:14 pmbelaccifer lacca Says:
… and any major study on health care costs in industrialized nations… or just ask someone from Canada or Germany if they’d swap systems with you…
This if from your same Fox Story:
“33 percent of Americans who got such speedy care. Only Canada scored lower, with 27 percent saying they could get same-day attention.”
Yeah Canada!!!
April 13th, 2009 at 4:14 pmgummble-bee-itch,
I think I.S. means you should compromise the dr. client priviledge, find the names of the patients who have received the same treatment your going in for, track them down 6 months or a year after their surgery and see how they’re doing.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:15 pmbelaccifer lacca Says:
… and any major study on health care costs in industrialized nations… or just ask someone from Canada or Germany if they’d swap systems with you.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:15 pm————————————————————-
I`d say hell no.Tom Hartmann was in Germany 2weeks ago and he had on lot`s people from all over Europe and they basically said the same thing,they have never heard of a medical bill or pay for RX`s.They were aghast at our health care industrial complex.Free market bull$hit does not work, it`s to profit driven for any country.health care is what`s hurting us in the world economy.we are one of the most productive and efficient country`s in the world yet health care is making our country very obsolete.
independent shi*head is just another Silence is Golden ahole.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:17 pmbelaccifer lacca Says:
Yes because the insurance companies are shopping the free market unlike the rest of us.
No.
Because insurance companies are buying in bulk an demanding discounts.
That’s the essence of shared risk and why a universal health care system would have even LOWER costs. A bigger pool.
So what is a bigger pool?
1. One guy by himself trying to get healthcare.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:17 pm2. An Insurance Compnay pooling together it’s customer’s.
3. Or an educated consumer market hawkishly evaluating all medical options comparing price and quality, then voting with their collective dollars. I’ll give you one minute….. Go!
In most industrialized country`s you will not lose your home to medical bankruptcy, because health care has no out of pocket cost for these people.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:18 pmbelaccifer lacca Says:
this is from the story as well independent:
Americans were also the most likely to have difficulty getting care on nights, weekends, or holidays without going to an emergency room.
Rationing!!!
What people? Those without insurance that have to go to the emergency room? Have you ever had to wait more than a day to see your doctor? I haven’t.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:19 pmYou haven’t answered my question, independent.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:19 pmindependent989 it is clear that you have the ethics and compassion of a bull shark and the soul of a lamprey. You think everything was just hunky dory 6 months ago and believe the world is now coming to an end.
Is it too much to ask that you keep your delusions to yourself. The rest of us have work to do. Like listening to a President who is actually trying to help this country.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:19 pmHave you ever had to wait more than a day to see your doctor? I haven’t.
You haven’t? Well 66% of INSURED Americans aren’t so lucky… that’s not even counting the uninsured…
April 13th, 2009 at 4:21 pmIndy, the bigger pool is large corporations like G.M, Ford Delta Airlines and so on.They can pool every thing and get a better deal,but not the best plan available.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:21 pmindependent989 Says: Have you ever had to wait more than a day to see your doctor? I haven’t.
Standing appointments with psychotherapists don’t count.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:21 pmindependent989 Says:
So what is a bigger pool?
1. One guy by himself trying to get healthcare.
2. An Insurance Compnay pooling together it’s customer’s.
3. Or an educated consumer market hawkishly evaluating all medical options comparing price and quality, then voting with their collective dollars. I’ll give you one minute….. Go!
Oh, now I get it. You think medical care is like shopping at Costco. No wonder none of your ideas make any sense.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:21 pmWhy won’t you address the THRUST of the study, independent?
April 13th, 2009 at 4:21 pmSo what is a bigger pool?
I know! I know! Pick me!
The whole population of the US
April 13th, 2009 at 4:22 pmHoodathunktick,
It’s really clueless, isn’t it?
April 13th, 2009 at 4:22 pmindependent989 Says:
What people? Those without insurance that have to go to the emergency room? Have you ever had to wait more than a day to see your doctor? I haven’t.
You’re either lying or you have a completely incompetent doctor who has no other patients. There isn’t a doctor in the country that would see you the same day unless it was an emergency — and even then you’d undoubtedly end in Urgent Care or the ER.
This is hopeless b.s.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:23 pmindependant is just trying to get the taste of his own butt out of his mouth.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:24 pmindependent989 Says:
Why is it immoral? Is it moral to ration healthcare? Is it moral to have a board decide who gets life saving treatment and who does not?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Can you read? Is this silly strawman idiocy the best you can do? The guy says OVERHEAD COSTS WILL DROP from 40% to 3% and you actually asked WHAT would drop. Then you post this blatant stupidity. We ALREADY RATION HEALTHCARE. 18000 people a year DIE in the US from lack of access to healthcare. If you need hernia surgery and dont have insurance good luck with that. If you need a transplant and cant afford it YOU DONT GET IT. Also ALREADY a board decided who gets life saving treatment and THAT is a board of profit motivated and career motivated HMO board. There is NO reason that government boards would be involved in lifesaving treatment decisions at ALL. Those decisions could be RETURNED to the doctors and the only government involvement could be paying for it. Minus the HUGE cost of the profit motivated private insurances and THEIR parasitic cut. The only way the private sector healthcare delivery systems can maximize profits is to become healthcare denial systems.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:24 pmhttp://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/etc/notebook.html
April 13th, 2009 at 4:26 pmINDY,This is an excellent article about health care in other country`s try reading it.Basic stuff what we are talking about now.
belaccifer lacca Says:
Have you ever had to wait more than a day to see your doctor? I haven’t.
You haven’t? Well 66% of INSURED Americans aren’t so lucky… that’s not even counting the uninsured…
I am not sure that I can believe that #, sorry.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:26 pmgummble-bee-itch Says:
independent989 Says:
So what is a bigger pool?
1. One guy by himself trying to get healthcare.
2. An Insurance Compnay pooling together it’s customer’s.
3. Or an educated consumer market hawkishly evaluating all medical options comparing price and quality, then voting with their collective dollars. I’ll give you one minute….. Go!
Oh, now I get it. You think medical care is like shopping at Costco. No wonder none of your ideas make any sense.
And that is why you don’t get it. It should be more like shopping at Costco. I bet you put more thought into what car you buy then you do about what Doctor you and your family go to. Tell me I’m wrong.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:27 pmindependent989 Says: I am not sure that I can believe that #, sorry.
Wnoot, whoot, Stand by for troll head explosion, aisle 9. Call out the hazmat team.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:28 pmHoodathunktick Says:
So what is a bigger pool?
I know! I know! Pick me!
The whole population of the US
Correct. You win.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:28 pmwatchdog Says:
Another braqinwashed talking point. No lawsuite add less than one percent to healthcare costs. That is what you were TOLD to believe and regurgitate and of course you have been programmed like one of Pavlovs dogs to blame EVERYTHING on one of the rightwing boogeymen. If you cant blame it on the ACLU, taxes, regulation or liberals in general then it MUST be the fault of lawyers SOMEHOW. Grow up for once in your life try, at least TRY for God sake to have a thought of your own. We already KNOW what Rush thinks about all this.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:28 pmTell me I’m wrong.
After all these posts, tell me when anyone thought you were right?
But, I’ll play your game, you are wrong. Happy?
April 13th, 2009 at 4:30 pmYOUR WRONG YOU FRIGGIN IDIOT.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:31 pmwatchdog Says:
Why are health care cost going up?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Because insurance companies lost money in the market and need to make it up. The HUGE raises began right after the high tech bubble burst.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:31 pmIndependent shi*head is truely a waste of carbon.
Address it at your own peril.
It exists by drawing the life blood out of any reasoned conversation.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:33 pmHoodathunktick Says:
Tell me I’m wrong.
After all these posts, tell me when anyone thought you were right?
But, I’ll play your game, you are wrong. Happy?
B.S. You fretted all week over whether or not to get the Prius or the Insight didn’t you? But probably took 60 seconds to pick out your doctor from the Yellow pages or some list your insurance company gave you, if you have it.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:33 pmindependent989 Says:
belaccifer lacca Says:
Have you ever had to wait more than a day to see your doctor? I haven’t.
You haven’t? Well 66% of INSURED Americans aren’t so lucky… that’s not even counting the uninsured…
I am not sure that I can believe that #, sorry.
You’re right… the number is more like 70%…
According to a 2007 survey by The Commonwealth Fund, nearly a third of Medicare patients had trouble finding a doctor who would take their insurance. And two-thirds of all Americans said they have a hard time getting medical care on nights, weekends and holidays.
Only 30 percent said they could get an appointment with their regular doctor on the same day.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:33 pmLet’s see, right-wing ideology is pro-poverty and pro-death, and these wingnuts can’t figure out why sane people are turning away from them and their party.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:33 pmIndy , Most people like me only have one choice for a employer offered plan, I either take it or leave it.I took it and my doctor doesn`t deal with BC/BS because they have to many claim denials.I still go to him because is one hell of human being who saved my life because he is one hell of a doctor, even though it cost $120 a pop to see him .As I said earlier I have $6500 in deductibles to meet and that won`t happen unless some really nasty happens to me which it did and then it will be taken care of,unless some bean counter says otherwise(denial for a preexisting condition).
April 13th, 2009 at 4:35 pmbelaccifer lacca Says:
independent989 Says:
belaccifer lacca Says:
Have you ever had to wait more than a day to see your doctor? I haven’t.
You haven’t? Well 66% of INSURED Americans aren’t so lucky… that’s not even counting the uninsured…
I am not sure that I can believe that #, sorry.
You’re right… the number is more like 70%…
According to a 2007 survey by The Commonwealth Fund, nearly a third of Medicare patients had trouble finding a doctor who would take their insurance. And two-thirds of all Americans said they have a hard time getting medical care on nights, weekends and holidays.
Only 30 percent said they could get an appointment with their regular doctor on the same day.
Isn’t Medicare Gov Sponsored Healthcare? And they couldn’t find a doctor? That is crazy!!
April 13th, 2009 at 4:35 pmwatchdog Says:
Why are health care cost going up?
Because there is a group of people in this country who think they have the right to get rich off human suffering.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:35 pmindependent989 Says:
I am sorry for your loss. Would you rather be fighting an Insurance company to get your services covered or a government bureaucracy? At least in a free market you have a choice where as in a government run health system, you would not. Unless you wanted to go out of the country to get medical help in a free market system.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This is stupid. There is NO REASON that healthcare should be denied by the government. Even WERE this the case and I dont see any reason it should be. I would rather be talking to a civil servant whose PAYCHECK isnt dependent on how much money he can save by denying healthcare to customers. Also the government at least somewhat answers to the public because of elections. Corporations are fascist by nature the decisions just flat out come from the top down and are interested in only ONE THING, MAXIMIZING PROFITS. Do the math on THAT one.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:36 pmIsn’t Medicare Gov Sponsored Healthcare? And they couldn’t find a doctor? That is crazy!!
They don’t seem to have the same problem in Germany… or New Zeland… or Finland… or ANY OTHER INDUSTRIALIZED NATION IN THE WORLD.
Crazy.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:37 pmindependent shi*head is just another Silence is Golden ahole.
He contradicts himself at every turn just trying to prolong his bullshi*.
He very well may be here ten hours from now.
No clue, no reason, no self respect, no remorse, no intellect.
Sorry guys, it’s going to go on forever.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:39 pmindependent989 Says:B.S. You fretted all week over whether or not to get the Prius or the Insight didn’t you? But probably took 60 seconds to pick out your doctor from the Yellow pages or some list your insurance company gave you, if you have it.
Caught your butt in your mouth again, little buddy. Yes, indeed. The last time I went to the doctor I went to one on some list your insurance company gave you.
So much for the GEICO approach to health care.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:39 pmI needed to see an ear nose and throat specialist and there was ONE in my area that my employer healthcare would approve and that is BlueCross/BlueShield, it took me almost two weeks to get an appointment
April 13th, 2009 at 4:41 pm#
Hoodathunktick Says:
independent989 Says:B.S. You fretted all week over whether or not to get the Prius or the Insight didn’t you? But probably took 60 seconds to pick out your doctor from the Yellow pages or some list your insurance company gave you, if you have it.
Caught your butt in your mouth again, little buddy. Yes, indeed. The last time I went to the doctor I went to one on some list your insurance company gave you.
So much for the GEICO approach to health care.
Did you research the Doctor? Or did you just go? IF you researched, what kind of research did you do?
April 13th, 2009 at 4:43 pmAlso, the hospital would not be coming after me, if the government denied payment for services already rendered, which is my case. They would simply have to deal with the government to get their money. Under our system, the hospital goes after the patient, if the insurance company denies coverage.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:43 pmEugene atrax robustus Debs Says:
I needed to see an ear nose and throat specialist and there was ONE in my area that my employer healthcare would approve and that is BlueCross/BlueShield, it took me almost two weeks to get an appointment
How large of an area did you search? Are you near a large city or out in the sticks?
April 13th, 2009 at 4:44 pmIndependent.
If what you say is true, why does study after study show that AMERICANS pay more for health care and are less satisfied with their treatment?
Will you answer?
Are we just bigger whiners?
April 13th, 2009 at 4:45 pmindependent989 Says: Did you research the Doctor? Or did you just go? IF you researched, what kind of research did you do?
Um, webbe see. I had one doctor to choose from because that was all that was on the list.
Did the last thought in your head die from loneliness or did you choke it just for fun?
April 13th, 2009 at 4:46 pmOf course you did. Anyone who says he makes an appointment for the next day is a liar. No one can get a next day appointment. That’s why we have emergency rooms.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:47 pmadd to #274:
treatment… than citizens of countries with universal health care?
April 13th, 2009 at 4:47 pmI
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April 13th, 2009 at 4:50 pmo e e
Rich H, you are right. Independent is soulless. TP would do well to invest in an ignore button. Trolls have every right to post but that doesn’t mean we have to put up with their heartless inanities.
I recommend a raised hand symbol.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:52 pmWhoops, sorry guys, it did’t take the way I put it in. But I guess the message is the same.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:52 pmbelaccifer lacca Says:
Independent.
If what you say is true, why does study after study show that AMERICANS pay more for health care and are less satisfied with their treatment?
Will you answer?
Are we just bigger whiners?
You say study after study. You have shown me one article that does not give any info on how the info was gathered, how did they pick there pool of respondents. Statistics can say what you want them to say, you just have to know where to start looking for your answers. All anecdotal data that I have come across, including speaking with people who have moved here from Europe, mostly to get away from the bloated and inefficient gov, their words, have said that medical service is not even close to ours. So I am hard pressed to accept your premise.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:53 pmbelaccifer lacca Says:
Independent.
If what you say is true, why does study after study show that AMERICANS pay more for health care and are less satisfied with their treatment?
Will you answer?
Are we just bigger whiners?
And yes many Americans are whiners.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:54 pmHe Trolls there is another thread you can go to, it`s about Faux News bending the space time continuum about being at the million man march before it was hatched by it`s illustrious founder and hater R. Murdoch.Neil Cavuto is a hoot, along with the rest Faux news and it`s gas bags that spout hatred against Obama and America.
April 13th, 2009 at 4:59 pmMore anecdotes for the collection, independent.
http://www.jhsph.edu/publichealthnews/press_releases/2005/anderson_healthspending.html
http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/chcm010307oth.cfm
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Content/Publications/In-the-Literature/2005/Jul/Health-Spending-in-the-United-States-and-the-Rest-of-the-Industrialized-World.aspx
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-healthcare.htm
April 13th, 2009 at 4:59 pm#
christopher wiwi Says:
He Trolls there is another thread you can go to, it`s about Faux News bending the space time continuum about being at the million man march before it was hatched by it`s illustrious founder and hater R. Murdoch.Neil Cavuto is a hoot, along with the rest Faux news and it`s gas bags that spout hatred against Obama and America.
I am sure that is a completely honest evaluation of what happened. I would expect nothing less from this site.
April 13th, 2009 at 5:00 pmIndy, Fair and Balanced,unlike Faux News which unfair and unbalanced.
April 13th, 2009 at 5:02 pmIs it just me or does it still smell like dog fart in here?
April 13th, 2009 at 5:04 pmNow back to the health care issue at hand.Health care is a right not a privilege it should part of the commons for which all pay for through out taxes, like Police,fire,sewage, water, roads,highways,medicare.V.A.bene`s and so on.Downright European ain`t it!!!!
April 13th, 2009 at 5:05 pmChristopher,
you mean “fair” as in complexion? And “balanced” because he hasn’t fallen over yet?
April 13th, 2009 at 5:05 pm#
belaccifer lacca Says:
More anecdotes for the collection, independent.
http://www.jhsph.edu/ publichealthnews/ press_releases/ 2005/ anderson_healthspending.html
http://www.kff.org/ insurance/ snapshot/ chcm010307oth.cfm
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/ Content/ Publications/ In-the-Literature/ 2005/ Jul/ Health-Spending-in-the-United-States-and-the-Rest-of-the-Industrialized-World.aspx
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-healthcare.htm
I agree these say that we spend more but where are all the studies that say our healthcare sucks compared to the rest of the world?
April 13th, 2009 at 5:07 pmRich H, Yes sirree.
April 13th, 2009 at 5:07 pmmore like fair where they have the sideshow and balanced between silly and pathetic.
April 13th, 2009 at 5:07 pmchristopher wiwi Says:
Now back to the health care issue at hand.Health care is a right not a privilege it should part of the commons for which all pay for through out taxes, like Police,fire,sewage, water, roads,highways,medicare.V.A.bene`s and so on.Downright European ain`t it!!!!
Where does it say that Healthcare is a right? Or is it just you saying it?
April 13th, 2009 at 5:08 pmDo not address the troll
Do not address the troll
Do not address the troll
Whew, I almost addressed the troll. Good thing my training kicked in and I remembered what a waste of time it would be.
April 13th, 2009 at 5:11 pmWhere does it say that Healthcare is a right?
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
But I bet you flunked civics in your home school.
April 13th, 2009 at 5:11 pmhttp://www.commonwealthfund.org/Content/Surveys/2008/The-Commonwealth-Fund-Survey-of-Public-Views-of-the-U-S–Health-Care-System–2008.aspx
8 in 10 Americans think that health care is failing. I’d say that’s dissatisfaction, independent.
April 13th, 2009 at 5:12 pmSorry, Rich H. I was caught up in the moment.
April 13th, 2009 at 5:12 pmIndy, who says it`s not?
April 13th, 2009 at 5:12 pmHoodathunktick Says:
Where does it say that Healthcare is a right?
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
But I bet you flunked civics in your home school.
So that you can understand what the Framers were thinking. http://www.libertynet.org/edcivic/genwelf.html
Alright, it’s been fun. I’m out.
April 13th, 2009 at 5:15 pmhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate_(2005)
WOO! We’re number 45! USA! At least we beat Poland, right Independent?
But we so outspend the rest of the world shouldn’t we be higher?
April 13th, 2009 at 5:17 pmHoodathunktick Says:
Where does it say that Healthcare is a right?
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
But I bet you flunked civics in your home school.
__________________________________________________________
Hoodthuntick, Awesome!There you quoting from some damn gov`t document that our founding fathers wrote and the the Shrub stepped on for 8 years.Yes health care is a fundamental right for people that have hearts and souls not “SHEEPLE”.
April 13th, 2009 at 5:18 pmindependent989 Says:
How large of an area did you search? Are you near a large city or out in the sticks?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I live in a city of over 50,000. The only ENT specialist on their list in my area was the guy unless I wanted to drive for hours which is a problem with my job. You keep talking about research. I dont know about YOUR insurance but mine gives me a booklet that lists all THEIR APPROVED DOCTORS. So research consisted of looking up the list of specialists they covered and seeing how many were in my city. That was ONE.
April 13th, 2009 at 5:20 pmOne last shot, indy. I don’t need someone to interpret the Preamble of the Constitution. I can read it just fine all by myself.
April 13th, 2009 at 5:21 pmindependent989 Says:
christopher wiwi Says:
He Trolls there is another thread you can go to, it`s about Faux News bending the space time continuum about being at the million man march before it was hatched by it`s illustrious founder and hater R. Murdoch.Neil Cavuto is a hoot, along with the rest Faux news and it`s gas bags that spout hatred against Obama and America.
I am sure that is a completely honest evaluation of what happened. I would expect nothing less from this site.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I am sure this astonishingly STUPID comment is typical of your posting. The DATE of the million man march is well known. The DATE of the starting of Fox news is also a matter of public record. What part of this is just too complicated for your simple mind?
April 13th, 2009 at 5:23 pmHoodathunktick Says:
Sorry, Rich H. I was caught up in the moment
I came so close to replying. I started to actually type a response but my ninja/spidey training kicked in and saved me.
And don’t think for a moment this ones out, silence is golden for sure.
April 13th, 2009 at 5:24 pmEugene, I think I through him off with the space time continuum thing.
April 13th, 2009 at 5:25 pmbelaccifer lacca Says:
The one place I am afraid to look at the stats for is number of deaths per dollar spent. I fear we might be numero uno there.
April 13th, 2009 at 5:25 pmindependent989 Says:
And yes many Americans are whiners.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And many Americans are morons who cant manage to kiss the ass of power near enough. YOU provide a perfect example
April 13th, 2009 at 5:26 pmYeah, Rich, he does have Pee Boy’s resilience. The master of don’t confuse me with facts because I can’t hear you.
April 13th, 2009 at 5:27 pmchristopher wiwi Says
Probably so. Too much for his matching pair of braincells
April 13th, 2009 at 5:27 pmEugene atrax robustus Debs,
to independent:
I am sure this astonishingly STUPID comment is typical of your posting. The DATE of the million man march is well known. The DATE of the starting of Fox news is also a matter of public record. What part of this is just too complicated for your simple mind?
independents response: Uh, everything.
April 13th, 2009 at 5:27 pmGit to give to INDY he is an exact clone Daryl without the religion stuff.
April 13th, 2009 at 5:30 pmHigher infant mortality rates than any other industrialized nation pretty much says it all. As does a shorter life expectancy. But a country that will let children die for lack of healthcare is soulless. Especially when the same people who let these babies die are the same people who profess to be pro-life and that every fetus is sacred. Sure they are, until they’re born.
April 13th, 2009 at 5:31 pmEugene atrax robustus Debs Says:
I live in a city of over 50,000. The only ENT specialist on their list in my area was the guy unless I wanted to drive for hours which is a problem with my job. You keep talking about research. I dont know about YOUR insurance but mine gives me a booklet that lists all THEIR APPROVED DOCTORS. So research consisted of looking up the list of specialists they covered and seeing how many were in my city. That was ONE.
If I got the gist of the troll’s concept of health care, you wouldn’t even have a booklet because you wouldn’t have insurance — you’d just take your money and go shopping for the best deal on “doctors.” He actually thought the proper model for health care should be just like Costco.
No, seriously.
April 13th, 2009 at 5:34 pmgummble-bee-itch Says:
Costco? WOW. His capacity for self delusion is astonishing
April 13th, 2009 at 5:55 pmWhat country lets babies die after birth? If you want to compare infant mortality rates, you need an honest assessment. I will provide a link about this issue. As far as nationalized health care, doesn’t the VA provide that? It seems to me there has been a lot of complaints about their service.
http://health.usnews.com/usnews/health/articles/060924/2healy.htm
April 13th, 2009 at 6:32 pmlink
It’s not the Salvation Army, but it does manage to function quite well in spite of it’s non-profit status.
April 13th, 2009 at 6:33 pmAs far as nationalized health care, doesn’t the VA provide that?
No, but the rest of the Industrialized Nations do, and it seems to me that they do it more cheaply than our piecemeal system… and with more satisfaction from their citizens… hmm.
Isn’t that what I’ve been saying all day?
April 13th, 2009 at 6:43 pmYou are saying the VA is not a government entity?
April 13th, 2009 at 6:49 pmNo, I’m saying we would be better served with a single-payer health care system.
Like the rest of the industrialized world…
It would be cheaper…
April 13th, 2009 at 6:54 pmIt would be better for businesses (both small and large)…
And it would be vastly more efficient and fairer…
You can’t ignore spending on Medicaid and the VA for years and then say, ‘Look! I told you Government run Health care would FAIL!’
No one buys it anymore… we’ve all had to deal with insurance companies…
April 13th, 2009 at 6:56 pmWhat would cause it to be cheaper being under government control? We have seen how Fannie/Freddie was handled, why do you think the government can handle health care? They can’t run the VA right. How do you think it would be more efficient? Do you deal with a lot of governmental agencies?
April 13th, 2009 at 7:02 pmYes, we have all had to deal with insurance companies. The government has tried to write rules for medical insurance for years and can’t get that right. Why do you have so much faith in them to run health care right? And don’t give me the line other countries do it. If they had such great health care, why do so many of the wealthy from other countries come here to the US for their health care? Because it is better.
just the facts, Why is it that other country`s are using our medicare and V.A. as models for their own use.Yes the V.A. is having some trouble and all that started under the Shrub when he went and tried to privatize it for his buddies just like he did in Iraq.Gov`t run health care works and every one has a right to health care.See post 295 for some insight.
April 13th, 2009 at 7:08 pmwhy do so many of the wealthy from other countries come here to the US for their health care?
That’s just it… the wealthy come because money buys access in the USA, not need.
Show me it’s better…
I’ve provided link after link showing it’s more expensive and people are less satisfied with our health care system here in the United States… please enlighten us with your studies showing that we are ‘better’ than those other countries…
April 13th, 2009 at 7:16 pmPeople from other country`s come here for elective surgery not life saving as much.Why is our system so much more expensive because of the high priced CEO`s running the health care industry.We all pay taxes for the commons why shouldn`t health care be part of the commons in this country.Free market health insurance is a scam and is morally corrupt for profit over sick people.Why are seniors going to Mexico and Canada for RX`s, we pay $30 dollars for RX`s that cost $1 around the world.We are being ripped off and you back these to no end, are you one them wealthy reich wingers that wants Obama to fail so you can have your precious tax cuts that don`t help anyone but the wealthy.
April 13th, 2009 at 7:19 pm$hit I just figured it out, the Reich wingers don`t want healthy and educated, they Want “SHEEPLE” because they believe everything that guys like Beck, Billo,the savage Weiner and Limpballs tell them.
April 13th, 2009 at 7:23 pmFacts, medicaid runs at a 2 to 3 percent overhead,Now compare that with the salaries of guys making millions as CEO`s and denying claims left and right and leaving sick people out in the cold.
April 13th, 2009 at 7:27 pmbelaccifer lacca-Whoa! I never said it wasn’t more expensive. I am aware that we spend more per capita in the US for health care than any other country in the world. I am self employed and have to buy my own insurance and for my family, so I know better than most what it costs! Why do you think handing control over to the government will make all the problems go away? We need to seriously get down to the bottom of the issues and deal with them. Portability is one, and so is existing conditions. But maybe we also need to get a handle of medical malpractice cases. Pharmaceutical costs. Why does the US consumer have to pay the r&d costs for drugs? The same drug in Canada is cheaper than here in the US and it has nothing to do with a nationalized system. Maybe our own rules and regulations are to blame. Bottom line is I agree, we need to improve our health care here, but handing it over to the government is not the answer. By the way, your comment money buys access is not 100% accurate. I have a cousin whose child was born with heart problems. Now in her 20s, this girl has had several heart surgeries to repair the problems and the family has never had health insurance.
April 13th, 2009 at 7:32 pmSorry to hear about your cousin’s daughter.
Under single payer they WOULD be covered though.
I’m just curious as to why, when study after study shows that single payer systems do it cheaper, more efficiently and with greater rates of satisfaction (and they cover EVERYONE!), you insist on arguing that they are not better.
We subsidize care already- Emergency rooms don’t pay for themselves- but by not covering basic health and only dealing with ‘Emergencies’ we COST ourselves BILLIONS of dollars.
Get it?
April 13th, 2009 at 7:37 pmAlso, many drugs are developed outside of the United States… we don’t ’subsidize’ R&D for the world.
Big Pharma is MASSIVELY profitable and they re-invest a fraction of those profits in R&D and direct that R&D money towards ‘profitable’ drugs like Viagra and away from less profitable but more useful drugs…
April 13th, 2009 at 7:42 pmbelaccifer lacca-Thank you. Yes, I do understand the emergency room issue. That is one of the things that needs to be addressed. Another is preventive health measures. Congress should move to have them included in all policies. In the long run, and I don’t think it would take long, that would bring down the costs of health care. It is foolish not to do it now! I have to be honest and say I don’t know what the best answer is, but I do agree something needs to be done. I am not confident that the one-payer system would be better. I deal with several government agencies in my business, and I do not see a lot of efficiencies there. This is not to disparage the workers. It says more about the bureaucracies that are created.
April 13th, 2009 at 7:45 pmIt says more about the bureaucracies that are created.
Why then argue for a system that creates a plethora of bureaucracies?
That’s what private insurance is…
April 13th, 2009 at 7:47 pmbelaccifer lacca-You have me there! You are right to a degree on that. But the same bureaucracies will have to exist in a governmental one payer plan. It won’t be replicated as it is now, with each insurance company having their own, which is one way to cuts some of the costs, if you look at it analytically. I am still a believer in private enterprise, though, and I would rather see Congress write some meaningful legislation that would improve delivery and cost control. If they can not do that now, why do you think they will do it when it is government run?
April 13th, 2009 at 7:59 pmindependent989 Says:
I just cant believe how stupid you are. You spout the most ignorant and brainwashed idiocy I have ever read. The free market wasnt given us by GOD. It is a man made construct and can be improved on by man made improvements and some things should be outside the reach of the profit motive. What a putz you are.
April 14th, 2009 at 1:30 amjust the facts Says:
I am still a believer in private enterprise, though, and I would rather see Congress write some meaningful legislation that would improve delivery and cost control. If they can not do that now, why do you think they will do it when it is government run?
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Because the profit motive will be removed. The ONLY way for a healthcare delivery system to maximize profits is to some degree becoming a healthcare DENIAL system. That flunky on the other end of the phone in a PRIVATE company has his OWN paycheck or bonus dependent on saving money and that is denyinng benfits. If it is a government flunky he is a civil servant and has no self interest motive on what kind of healthcare you get that is if HE even exists which I see no reason for. Tell me which one YOU want making decisions on YOUR healthcare.
April 14th, 2009 at 1:34 ambelaccifer lacca Says:
Not to mention that our taxpayer dollars subsidized the R&D of MANY drugs that are then sold at a profit by big Pharma which spends more on ADVERTISING Than they do R&D
April 14th, 2009 at 1:36 amI fail to see why I should be taxed for someone Else’s health care..just because they would rather watch cable TV or have a cell phone for every family member…while my family had to do without…in order for us to afford paying for our health care?
Seems once again it is a matter of priorities and some do the right thing and others just want to become wards of the state and force the rest of us to carry their burdens.
http://governor.state.tx.us/news/press-release/12227/
It’s coming folks
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