Afghan women pelted by stones while protesting rape law.
Afghan women pelted by stones while protesting rape law.
Last month, Afghan President Hamid Karzai provoked international outrage when he signed legislation that effectively legalizes marital rape. Afghan women are trying to fight back, joining forces with women’s rights group and protesting the law. But yesterday, the women protesters were greeted by “largely male” counter-protesters:
A group of some 1,000 Afghans swarmed a demonstration of 300 women protesting against a new conservative marriage law on Wednesday. The women were pelted with small stones as police struggled to keep the two groups apart. [...]
[O]thers shouted “Death to the slaves of the Christians!” Female police held hands around the group to create a protective barrier. … “You are a dog! You are not a Shiite woman!” one man shouted to a young woman in a headscarf holding aloft a banner that said “We don’t want Taliban law.” The woman did not shout back at the man, but told him: “This is my land and my people.”
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My heart goes out to those women. My tax dollars (our tax dollars!) go to fund this long war in Afganistan. One of our goals was to make it better for women in that country. It doesn’t appear that we have made much of a difference, and we sure haven’t captured Osama Bin Laden. So tell me, why are we there?
April 15th, 2009 at 10:49 amright wingers are poison for EVERY country, not just the US
April 15th, 2009 at 10:49 amIt’s heartening to see these women stand up for themselves, but it’s not really our place to tell them how to live or what to do. I find the law disgusting, reprehensible, and completely out of line with the modern world. But I’m not an Afghan and I don’t live in Afghanistan. I would be super pissed if Afghans came to America and said that we had to outlaw divorce and that we let our women parade through the streets like whores because they wear miniskirts and halter tops. Worse, I would be beyond angry if they refused to deal with us unless we outlawed gay marriage in our country.
I don’t know what will come of this, but we need to stay out of it and hope for the best.
April 15th, 2009 at 10:49 amLast month, Afghan President Hamid Karzai provoked international outrage when he signed legislation that effectively legalizes marital rape.
– - That’s Afghan President Hamid Karzai, our partner in peace.
April 15th, 2009 at 10:50 amkarzai was the best puppet 43 could find and the end result was him cozying up with the taliban and instituting sharia law? way to go neoclowns.
April 15th, 2009 at 10:52 amkudos to these ladies for thier bravery…publicly disagreeing with religious nuts in that country is a very dangerous affair…so much for the “freedumbs” george bush insists we’re spreading via the barrell of a gun..
April 15th, 2009 at 10:54 am@#4 I agree completely Brian.
We can’t win this culture war and it really isn’t even our place to try.
April 15th, 2009 at 10:54 amLooks like it’s concession time for Hamid Karzai. He’s curling up in Kabul, and the warlords carve up that nation into their fiefdoms. And why, once more, are we there?
April 15th, 2009 at 10:55 amWoke up this morning and this was the first article I read and for a second I thought I was reading the first story of the day about the teabaggger’s convention. You gotta admit it’s hard to tell the crazy fundie peeps apart these days.
Just saying . . .
April 15th, 2009 at 10:56 amSpot on number 4. History of the world has taught us that imposing ones ideals onto another nation always ends badly. This is a nation of different values and traditions that although we may not agree with a majority of them do. best for us to stay out of these things
April 15th, 2009 at 10:56 am> the end result was him cozying up with the taliban and
> instituting sharia law?
heck, look at iraq…apparently the reichwingers are perfectly willing to throw endless amounts of american blood and treasure into a country whose newly written constitution includes the phrase “they will be no law which contradicts islam”…as much as muslimgs scare them you wouldnt think they’d be so psyched on the idea..
April 15th, 2009 at 10:57 amThat these women had the courage to protest, and were protected by police is amazing progress.
April 15th, 2009 at 10:59 amI just wish there’d been 3000, or 30000 standing up for their rights in their country.
OMG! Thank goodness I live in the USA! This is tragic.
We need to pack up all of the religious extremists and send them to Afghanistan. In fact, pack up all of the Grand Old Party of NO with their teabaggers and ship them there – they’d fit in perfectly.
April 15th, 2009 at 10:59 amBrian Crooks Says: it’s not really our place to tell them how to live or what to do.
Where do you draw the line though? There comes a point where it’s not just unfamiliar “customs” making us uncomfortable, but actual human rights being violated, atrocities being committed. Consider the recent execution of two teenagers for eloping. Or the rounding up and executions of gays in Iraq.
One gets kinda tired of the “well, it’s just part of the religion” excuse used to justify these things. We see it in foreign countries as well as our own, when the Religious Right seems to think “Religous Freedom” means freedom to discriminate and ruin other people’s lives because their deity said it’s OK.
April 15th, 2009 at 11:01 amSend all extremists left and right and party line voters too. send them all to Afghanistan
April 15th, 2009 at 11:02 amI’m glad that the women are standing up for themselves. Major change is going to have to come from the citizens of Afghanistan – American interference may not always be the answer.
April 15th, 2009 at 11:04 amYeah maybe would should send troops to the Netherlands to liberate the red light district and close the drug infested coffee shops too. NOT we should let foriegn nations dictate their own laws
April 15th, 2009 at 11:04 am“This is my land and my people.”
Now, where is golden rule embedded in all the world’s faith traditions?
Capitalistic democracy says “he who has the gold rules, or has the money to buy influence from the rulemakers.”
Another protest by an army of 1,000 angry dicks. Afghanistan’s Tea Party.
April 15th, 2009 at 11:06 amNellre, the reason why there aren’t more women protesting is because they will certainly feel their husbands’ anger at home, and god knows what will happen to them.
April 15th, 2009 at 11:08 amI am very happy to see this group of women come out and fight for their rights, even though they might be ostracized after that. Extremism is dangerous on either side. The extreme right should see that their views against homosexuals are parallel to the view of these Afghan men towards women. They are just not openly violent about it.
Just how many of these women have had their genetalia mutilated so that the men can ensure that they will feel no sexual pleasure and therefore won’t stray from the marital bed?
I am saddened that the fate of billions of women worldwide is still so precarious here in 2009.
PEACE
April 15th, 2009 at 11:08 amWhile I agree with #4 Brian Crooks, I have to also agree more with #15 KateWords Says.
I don’t think we need to impose our ‘western values’ upon other cultures, but we should stand up for one’s right to live peacefully.
The question is how and I think the only way is to support their long term self-empowerment. Of course you can’t bomb your way to success with that strategy, but on the upside, the positive results may be longer lasting.
April 15th, 2009 at 11:09 amThis can’t be?!? The congressional Republicans already sported ink stained thumbs to celebrate Afghan freedom! Mission Accomplished, right?
Damn Liberal Media making up stories. Why do they hate America? And Afghanistan?
April 15th, 2009 at 11:11 amFrom MSNBC: “Though the law would apply only to the country’s Shiites…”
What’s that supposed to mean? How can the application of law be dependent upon one’s religion?
April 15th, 2009 at 11:12 amI could give some credence to the idea that we can’t tell them how to live their lives.
However, as we have disrupted the fabric of their society multiple times in the past few years, we have already injected ourselves into the situation. So we bear some responsibility for the outcome.
Somewhat similar to Colin Powells China Shop law.
April 15th, 2009 at 11:12 amIs some places they are violent about…
April 15th, 2009 at 11:13 ampastcaring ceratopogonidae Says:
I don’t think we need to impose our ‘western values’ upon other cultures, but we should stand up for one’s right to live peacefully.
Agree completely. “Western” values, no. Universal declaration of human rights, yes.
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
April 15th, 2009 at 11:13 amWe shouldn’t be in the business of policing culture and infringing upon national sovereignty except for genocide which is a helluva lot easier to deal with than Sharia endorsed rape.
It’s horrible, but what the hell can we do?
April 15th, 2009 at 11:14 am#
#
KateWords Says:
Brian Crooks Says: it’s not really our place to tell them how to live or what to do.
Where do you draw the line though? There comes a point where it’s not just unfamiliar “customs” making us uncomfortable, but actual human rights being violated, atrocities being committed. Consider the recent execution of two teenagers for eloping. Or the rounding up and executions of gays in Iraq.
One gets kinda tired of the “well, it’s just part of the religion” excuse used to justify these things. We see it in foreign countries as well as our own, when the Religious Right seems to think “Religous Freedom” means freedom to discriminate and ruin other people’s lives because their deity said it’s OK.
I’m not excusing this, I’m just saying that we don’t have the right to tell them what they can and can’t do. I draw the line exactly where I would want them to draw it: at the border. They may consider it atrocious that we let homosexuals marry here or that we have immediate pornography at the click of a mouse or that we let our daughters choose to date who they want. I find what they’re doing beyond reprehensible, but we can’t impose our cultural norms on anyone else lest we let them impose theirs onto us.
April 15th, 2009 at 11:14 am@#4 I agree completely Brian.
We can’t win this culture war and it really isn’t even our place to try.
April 15th, 2009 at 11:15 am————————————— Me also Brian. We do not need to be there to tell them how they should live.
was a palin sponsored event, supported by her nominee for alaska ag?”
April 15th, 2009 at 11:16 amFemale police held hands around the group to create a protective barrier
– - Female police? In Afghanistan? That’s odd on so many levels.
April 15th, 2009 at 11:16 amWe should go in there and change their repressive regime giving them the freedom to elect…
…oh wait…we did… they elected these jackasses.
April 15th, 2009 at 11:17 amIt’s hard to think of things when the last 8 years has been all about displays of our nation’s ‘hard power’ rather than ’soft power’.
Influence can be applied without breaking one’s arm or making the person you are trying to influence resent you.
April 15th, 2009 at 11:18 amKateWords Says:
From MSNBC: “Though the law would apply only to the country’s Shiites…”
What’s that supposed to mean? How can the application of law be dependent upon one’s religion?
Totally screwed up, I agree. But we have that here. You can’t drink under 21 unless you’re taking Communion. You can’t use peyote unless you’re in a protected native American tribe and use it for religious purposes. I know these are by no means the same thing, but the laws sometimes apply differently to protected religious groups.
April 15th, 2009 at 11:19 amBadmoodman Says:
not if it’s us female mp’s who provided the barrier.
April 15th, 2009 at 11:19 amapologies for the typo was on a phone call
April 15th, 2009 at 11:19 amdeebaser Says:
We should go in there and change their repressive regime giving them the freedom to elect…
…oh wait…we did… they elected these jackasses.
This is the fatal flaw in the neocon’s nation-building plan. They assume that if we give people free elections, they’ll elect people just like us that share our values. Meanwhile, Hamas was democratically elected. With free elections, you can’t predict what side will win and how they’ll govern. Free elections only ensure that the most popular side wins. If that most popular side favors suicide bombings, nuclear weaponry, oppressive laws, etc., we can’t even use the “we don’t want to legitimize them” argument. They’re already legit. That includes Ahmadinejad.
April 15th, 2009 at 11:21 amragingkitty
Hate crimes in the US are, unfortunately, not uncommon, and gays are often targets.
We need an Arabic subtitled version of The Burning Bed distributed throughout Afghanistan.
Power to the Women!
April 15th, 2009 at 11:24 amBrian Crooks Says: They may consider it atrocious that we let homosexuals marry here or that we have immediate pornography at the click of a mouse…
I hear ya, but there’s there’s quite a leap from objecting to pornography and same-sex marriage… to the legalized rape of women and the mass-murder of gays. Uncomfortable traditions and customs are one thing… state-endorsed rape and mass-murder another.
What can we do? Well, at least make our outrage known. I’m not saying we can invade and occupy every country we find atrocities in, but we can at least, as a global community, make our collective voice heard. Let them know it’s not happening in a vaccuum, that it’s NOT ok with the modern, civilized world – and if they ever want to be part of it, they may need to reconsider those “traditions” which are totally out of touch with it.
April 15th, 2009 at 11:30 amLast time I checked…B.O. is now Commander in Chit? I see how other countries are so scared of him and his policies. Even the French President shamed B.O. and told him off on his visit overseas. Now that is hilarious…a frenchmen telling an american that he was ashamed of him. LMAO
B.O.’s now in charge so you lefty mug warts don’t have President Bush to bash on this…but you’re fearless leader who took credit for killing 3 teenage…untrained pirates but lets all the rest of the world get a pass like Iran…and Korea. I am going to start referring to him as inverted balls.
Is B.O.’s storm troopers and boot kickers out taking names today at the Tea Parties instead of protecting our borders like they were elected to do? Youbetcha.
April 15th, 2009 at 11:31 amProud American Says:
Yeah maybe would should send troops to the Netherlands to liberate the red light district and close the drug infested coffee shops too. NOT we should let foriegn nations dictate their own laws
___________
False equivalency… and actually kind of STUPID, too…
Here’s something you’ll be interested in, “Proud of His Ignorance”…
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April 15th, 2009 at 11:33 amIgnore the ignorance Matt…let ‘em twist in the wind…
April 15th, 2009 at 11:41 amI hear ya, but there’s there’s quite a leap from objecting to pornography and same-sex marriage… to the legalized rape of women and the mass-murder of gays. Uncomfortable traditions and customs are one thing… state-endorsed rape and mass-murder another.
What can we do? Well, at least make our outrage known. I’m not saying we can invade and occupy every country we find atrocities in, but we can at least, as a global community, make our collective voice heard. Let them know it’s not happening in a vaccuum, that it’s NOT ok with the modern, civilized world – and if they ever want to be part of it, they may need to reconsider those “traditions” which are totally out of touch with it.
I agree with you. To us, this is a MAJOR leap to make between objecting to porn and gay marriage and killing gays and allowing legalized rape. Certainly. But to them, it may be the opposite. The international community should denounce the law and sent a stern message through the UN, but aside from that there’s not a whole lot we can actually do.
April 15th, 2009 at 11:43 amI wasn’t going to post today but here I am…After spending many year’s working for women’s right’s here it’s hard to pass on this one..First let me add how much everything is connected..War’s, poverty, lack of education…
Read some where this past week on a Peace site, sorry, can’t remember where, we are spending 57% of all our budget’s on war related funding…( 57% )…In my entire life of 67 year’s our country has been at war in some fashion with some one…Damn..The fact that I was taught by our government to dive under desk’s from age 5 to the present is disgusting…I have not been stoned by other citizen’s though, neither did I get exacuted or maimed at the hand of my relative’s for religion sake..
It is my opinion many thing’s would change for the better if the most feared and war like country in the world besides Israel were on a path of Peace instead of war…..We can’t force our freedom’s and view’s on the world by wipeing out entire tribes of people with tank’s and bomb’s, we could with food, education and a peaceful stance…Relegious domination is kept in check with fear, poverty and lack of education…..Our own country with all it’s fault’s progressed, not so long ago women could not vote…The mind set of force need’s to end, President Obama and other world leader’s need to get together to convince the oppressive countries that all their citizen’s are valuable…The day we use honey or carrot’s instead of bomb’s will be the day we see more good change and less killing;s of oppression..P. B. & J…
April 15th, 2009 at 11:47 am“Though the law would apply only to the country’s Shiites…” has me wondering though: can women just change religions to escape these laws?
After all, there are women here who willingly submit themselves to the “laws” of their religion which require them to obey and worship their husband, etc.
April 15th, 2009 at 11:50 amThe earth will be a far better place when we evolve past the need to appease the magic man that lives in the sky.
April 15th, 2009 at 11:55 amWhen all Afghan women have the vote, then I will accept that their country has the sovereign right to tell their women how to live and die.
As they do not have a voice, they need someone to stand up for them.
I would be happy to have my tax dollars used to make a better life for these women.
April 15th, 2009 at 11:59 amLINK?
April 15th, 2009 at 12:00 pmKateWords Says:
Where do you draw the line though? There comes a point where it’s not just unfamiliar “customs” making us uncomfortable, but actual human rights being violated, atrocities being committed. Consider the recent execution of two teenagers for eloping. Or the rounding up and executions of gays in Iraq.
April 15th, 2009 at 11:01 am
_____________
The line is in the approach. The United States has no business lecturing other countries about violations of human rights, period. Even if we had a perfectly clean human rights record ourselves, we’d still have no business dictating to Afghanistan how their culture should act.
The problem arises when we attempt a top-down imposition of Western values on non-Western cultures, and the history of colonialism is littered with the graves of millions of victims of this approach. On the other hand, simply throwing up our hands and saying “oh, well… It’s Afghanistan, that’s just how they do things” isn’t a good option either.
The fact is that Afghanistan is an adopter of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and they are bound by their obligations to this international law. It is the duty of the Afghan government to reconcile their conception of shari’a law with this worldwide baseline of human rights. Nations doing business with Afghanistan should remind the Afghan government of this obligation, making their aid and trade contingent upon compliance if they need to.
Secondly, this needs to be viewed, like all civil rights efforts, as a multi-generational issue. We can help develop Afghan civil society and improve education without imposing Western Judeo-Christian values on the culture. It just takes time, and we need to be willing to invest the time and effort. Unfortunately, aid budgets are determined fiscal year to fiscal year, not generation to generation, and I fear we will once again abandon Afghanistan if there’s no immediate ROI.
April 15th, 2009 at 12:03 pmSadam Hussein was a secular leader of Iraq and we got rid of him. What message did we send to the region when we did that?
April 15th, 2009 at 12:05 pmWomen’s rights isn’t a particularly “Western” value. We went through much the same thing around the beginning of the 1900’s.
April 15th, 2009 at 12:13 pmOne again, nailed it…my sentiments exactly but way more eloquent than I am. Thanks for your insight.
April 15th, 2009 at 12:22 pmtoasterhead nail it, again. Thanks.
Last time I looked, women were human beings, and as such are entitled to human rights and dignity.
Period.
April 15th, 2009 at 12:36 pmThe Republic of Hymenoptera Stupidity
False equivalency?? No it is not however the point is that many modern civilized countries have horrific customs none of which are the United States responsibilities. These Countries are going through an evolution and it is up to them to fight for them and change things gradually gaining support in their own Countries. These women do need to be heard and commoneded for their actions and in time I am sure that it will lead to good change. After their support grows locally then they can look to support from the world. Intervening now will only lead to greater dislike for America.
BTW I am hardly a right wing newticle type person. about 80 percent of my beliefs lean toward the left with about 20 percent leaning to the right I consider my self a moderate Democrat. all of nut cases Left and Right scare me.
April 15th, 2009 at 12:59 pmIf you think that my name suggests that i am a right winger then that is just plain sad. sad to think that in order to be proud that you have to be a republican.
April 15th, 2009 at 1:02 pmnellre and pastcaring,
April 15th, 2009 at 1:10 pmI am not saying there are NO hate crimes against homosexuals. There certainly are! but they don’t do it openly in the name of the GOP party or the conservative movement. Whenever hate crimes are committed, they are always labeled as isolated events, by the politicians, media, etc.
Grammar nag: They were pelted by men with stones. The stones are innocent.
April 15th, 2009 at 1:16 pmAnd they should count themselves lucky only to be pelted, since death by stoning is acceptable there. I am sure some of these women protesting will be facing serious violence atthe hands of their male relatives for speaking out.
HUMAN RIGHTS ARE FOR ALL HUMANS!
April 15th, 2009 at 1:39 pm“Live free or die,”: is the motto of the Great Granite State of New Hampshire, therefore “Tolerate Islam, or die,” is of equal logic.
The question is, “What IS ISlam? Is it really the source of the verb “to be” found in the English language? Is lamb? Is real? Is (Eng) fish? Or is it a mere coincidence that this most irregular of verbs, so close to “ideena s-siratal mustaqueem” (show us thy straight way) is similar?
The competition, yea, even war, of the ancient hypnotizers: language. The fear the pied piper of Hamilin will charm and hypnotize whose children and lead them away…
The UNITY of Islam, La il aha [thn\] il la Allah, ashadu Adam from the clay rasulluulah… ashadu Eve from the rib, or ribosome, or meiosis, or mitosis, or amino acids of Adam, therefore BOTH, you, Adam, and you, Eve, rasulluulah, messnegers, coaches, ambassadors, life guards… to and from you, the one God, ashadu Noah, rasulluulah…
The Highest Chain of Command overarching the tactical details of crime and punishment: “siratal l-lad zeenah, an amta, alayhim, grayhill maughdubi alayhim wa lad dallllllleeeeen. Ameen.” – “Thy straight way that is known to us by the confidence of countenance of rhythm, and bearing, and demeanor of those who are not tormented, and who torment others not,” – The summit of the highest chain of command can get lost to view when you are lower on the mountain, in the underdog position, struggling to protect your home, and your rights from the wheel, and paved roads of the sea land van culture with it’s subdivide, and resell for more – “Pawn broker” mentality.
So, to rescue our brothers (and sisters) whose homes are their castle, and who are under an attack not unlike the genocide perpetrated by the East Indies trading company against China in the Opium Wars, and by the West Indies Trading company in the bubble economy of Mayan, Incan, and Aztec enslavement, and Cherokee, Chyene, Cree, Souix, etc. extinction… might go as follows:
A mosque (or church) has the right to grow as large as it can, as long as anyone who wants to is free to leave without retribution against anyone, just as the Iranian who won the Nobel Peace prize a few years ago was free to leave Iran to pick up her prize.
If the fundamentalists, and their sometimes not as diligent, extremist, cousins are permitted to have a mosque as big as an entire valley, with mosque rules in side their border, and a Vatican City – style status at the United Nations, and their own Sovereignty inside six strategically located valley mosques, THEN would they be more risk averse to initiating conflict by force? Because now they would be at the summit of Islam: with their OWN Mosque as far as the voice of the call to prayer without electrical aid could be heard by all their Imam without overlapping.
Meanwhile, the SECULAR area would welcome any muslim no matter how Amish, or Quaker, or Morman, or Puritan, or Orthodox, or Conservative the muslims might be as long as the rule “Tolerate Islam, or die” was enforced in the SECULAR area. [sund]
The fundamentalists could compete in elections in the secular area and through “Decision Based Islam” attempt to win a majority [thn\] And if this majority could be persuaded by peaceful means to change the Provincial charter to also convert the province into another Valley size mosque as wide as the call to prayer could be heard at all points inside the area at any given prayer, then so be it, ma sha lah, but not by force. Islam is a voluntary faith. It is only the refusal to TOLERATE Islam that can be punished, and only then up until the point of surrender. AFter surrender the vanquished are not REQUIRED [thn\] to convert to Islam, that can be only a voluntary decision on their part between them and their Allah.
Our prophet, Mohammed, may peace be upon him, instituted the practice of letting non-believers pay taxes, while Muslims who paid the annual Zakat charity to the mosque were e x e m p t e d from the tax; xref: 750 generations ago the idea of tax deductible charities – currently practiced in the US as if it were our idea. Fear of not giving credit where credit is due, more than fear of being hurt by giving credit to Islam, Maliki yo mid deen, because of the Judgement day.
So, with this new model, the fundamentalist can keep anyone out of their valley size mosques, but they must let in anyone who truly practices Islam, no matter where they come from. They can require quarantine, passport, visa, and to be physically and financially able to visit, but they cannot exclude anyone who truly practices Islam in the conservative, orthodox, fundamentalist style, or even MORE so, if such a thing is possible to recite the names of all 25 of the main prophets as well as that of our prophet Mohammed, may peace be upon him, and them, when bearing witness.
But when OUTSIDE the mosque, “Tolerate Islam, or die,” is the rule. And should the fundamentalists resort to force instead of voluntary DAWA outreach to win the hearts and minds of less conservative, less orthodox muslims, then, then surely the orthodox muslims would be in the wrong and would risk loosing their valley size mosques [exterior sound] where they DO have the right to insist on as conservative a practice as Islam as they practice because that entire valley is their MOSQUE, the same way all of Saudi Arabia is one big mosque, with many prayer spots and the two most holy prayer spots in all of Islam.
Now if a woman feels oppressed she must be free to LEAVE the conservative valley mosque without fear of retribution to anyone. Women have the right of divorce in Islam, as do men. Women have the right to property in Islam, as do men, and the failure to report on the inheritance rights of Iraqi widows is a gapping hole in the news coverage.
If the Orthodox muslims with their mosques as big as two valleys, or more, depending upon the strength of the voices of their Azan… are so harsh on their women that too many leave, then that will be a lesson to them, although some abused women blame themselves, ironically.
However, if in the new found confidence of being at the summit as the sovereign, in charge of their mosque valleys, the orthodox muslims find new “Alhumdullilah!” and relief from the trials and tribulations of our skitzophrenic, “man on man” “hot” pursuit, “Talley, Ho!” that is the frustrated, and sublimated libido of “animus seeking animus” rejected by a stern father, seeking a surrogate father in the vice president, and using the US military as a surrogate son, to compensate for having twin daughters, and thus manifesting a homo-sexual style of [jet] ‘consumation’, warped into violence, to kill the other men who symbolize the frustration toward the father, instead of the “Brokeback Mountain” unrepressed transference of the love toward the Mother projected on to another man, because no woman is deemed ‘adequate’ to replace the Mother…
So when the orthodox muslims are freed from our US mental illness of a video game generation of hunters and killers, instead of defenders and repellers… then their own mental illness issues such as being used by the US to fight the Soviets, and then abandoned by the US, and set up by USAma bin Laden, to be the scape goat for an excuse by the U.S. to attack them… they will now instead have a chance to find relief… and love, in their families and friends, and the higher levels of the chain of command such as “siratal l-ladzeena an amta alyahim gbrayhil maughdubi alayhim wa lad dallllllleeeen. Ameen.”
And then “Thy straight way that is known to us by the confidence of countenace of rhythm and bearing and demeanor of those who are not tormented, and who torment others not,” will have a chance to rise [BRhnn [wheww heww]] to the surface again, and instead of feeling the need to mandate every fourth day as intimacy day, or response day, or the need to order men to keep their beards, or the need to beat people for failing sura el Nur which permits only people who are related by marriage or birth to see one another 100%, except men must still not see one another between the belly button and the knee, except for medical reasons…. Then happier times might prevail… and the joy of intimacy might seek fulfillment MORE often than every fourth night… Who kows? God is the Greatest, Alawackbarr.
To apply the logic of Sura 2, Verse 23 and 26 here:
If you have a doubt about what has been revealed to you, try to write a response like unto it that resolves your doubt(s). Then take it to your witnesses, if you have any besides the one God, and if they are not able to show you the logic of this post, then post your own response so that this one might be diagnosed and healed.
Be wary of the similitudes, but know which are true comparisons and which are false.
“‘Judge not that we be not judged’ diagnose and heal so that we ourselves might be,’
“‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth’, but if you forgive the tooth that is owed to you, then that is a charity for you (and your family) here after, even unto the seventh generation, God willing, in sha lah, who hopes,’
April 15th, 2009 at 1:46 pm@Brian Crooks
I see where you’re going, but it really doesn’t matter if there is a huge leap between porn and marital rape, because by sanctioning and legalizing rape, they are going out of their way to directly violate the rights of the women in their country.
They don’t have the right to decide that raping a human being is “just as bad or worse than” porn that no one is forcing you to look at. I’m sorry, but they don’t. I don’t care if they’re a sovereign nation or not, the UN has a Declaration of Universal Rights, and by allowing and condoning the rape of their women, they are violating it, period.
It’s not acceptable, and that’s all there is to it. It’s not a matter of culture.
April 15th, 2009 at 1:47 pm@Proud American
And we should continue to overlook genocide, too, I suppose? Or is that worse because people are being slaughtered wholesale and that’s worse than the savage rape of untold numbers of women who either have to put up with it or be murdered by their own husbands?
The replier to your original comment was dead on – there is no comparison between matters of culture and the robbing of basic human rights. All countries have some level of rights violations, and we should be doing what we can do deal with that as a global community. That includes letting these governments know that what they are doing is in no way, shape, or form acceptable, and at minimum allowing political asylum to any woman that comes to the US to escape the horrific treatment she can expect by remaining in her home country. It shouldn’t have to come to that, but it does.
How, by the way, do you suggest that these women fight back? It sounds all well and good to a person who was brought up in a country where they have the right to speak out against what they don’t like, protest when they feel they need to, and use the law to really fight things they feel are wrong. But when you’ve grown up oppressed and as a second, third, or fourth-class citizen, and you know that protesting could mean lifelong imprisonment and/or death, it’s a different story altogether.
April 15th, 2009 at 1:56 pmProud American-
There is a nasty troll named Proud who posts here. I think they are mistaking you for that person.
Cheers.
April 15th, 2009 at 1:58 pmaHij akab Says:
“Live free or die,”: is the motto of the Great Granite State of New Hampshire, therefore “Tolerate Islam, or die,” is of equal logic
The question is, “What IS ISlam? Is it really the source of the verb “to be” found in the English language? Is lamb? Is real? Is (Eng) fish? Or is it a mere coincidence that this most irregular of verbs, so close to “ideena s-siratal mustaqueem” (show us thy straight way) is similar?
The competition, yea, even war, of the ancient hypnotizers: language. The fear the pied piper of Hamilin will charm and hypnotize whose children and lead them away…
The UNITY of Islam, La il aha [thn\] il la Allah, ashadu Adam from the clay rasulluulah… ashadu Eve from the rib, or ribosome, or meiosis, or mitosis, or amino acids of Adam, therefore BOTH, you, Adam, and you, Eve, rasulluulah, messnegers, coaches, ambassadors, life guards… to and from you, the one God, ashadu Noah, rasulluulah…
Ya akhi, you have broken my brain. Congratulations.
April 15th, 2009 at 2:34 pmWhy does America need to tell other countries how to behave? Why do we need to shove our views of morality down other people’s throats? Afghanistan may have a reason for this law. Have you seen what Afghan men look like? Maybe their women will not copulate often enough with them and the law is needed to ensure procreation.
April 15th, 2009 at 4:02 pm@ crazy cricket cat lady
Yes apparently people tend to hear only what they want hear and read only what they want to read and totally miss the piont.
April 15th, 2009 at 5:55 pm@ smidget
My point is that there are atrocities and have been atrocities all over this world some much greater than others. When we are not directly involved what measures do we take? How far do we go? Many people in this Country are still fighting for rights. We continue to evolve in our beliefs. Trying to force others into what is “right” never works. It is a sad, long and hard process which the Afghan people must endure.
The list is much too long to intervene in every situation. My personal belief is that this is one we sit out.
We do apply political pressure on these types of Countries as well we should but beyond that this is a problem that has to be overcome internally.
April 15th, 2009 at 6:03 pmIt was reported the Taliban executed two people who were eloping to get married. I guess Taliban law is better. At least it’s not conservative. Right.
April 16th, 2009 at 1:53 amMan, aHij akab, it doesn’t look like many people are up to the task of parsing your textwall, but it looks like you’re a good Muslim which are rare around here, so I’ll give it the best shot I can…
General comments: thanks for the explanation about how a lot of Islam works. My responses are just my usual off-the-cuff criticisms, most of which would apply to any religion, not necessarily Islam in particular. Although, I gotta admit, it looks like you’ve got a lot of particulars here. More than I knew about before I read this at least.
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aHij akab Says:
“Live free or die,”: is the motto of the Great Granite State of New Hampshire, therefore “Tolerate Islam, or die,” is of equal logic.
Live free =/= tolerate Islam. To the average Westerner, those are totally different propositions. So, no. While tolerating Islam is cool and all, it’s not like a lifeblood do-or-die thing to me.
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The question is, “What IS ISlam? Is it really the source of the verb “to be” found in the English language? Is lamb? Is real? Is (Eng) fish? Or is it a mere coincidence that this most irregular of verbs, so close to “ideena s-siratal mustaqueem” (show us thy straight way) is similar?
“Islam” would not be a verb. I don’t go out and Islam of a Friday night.
Wikipedia tells me “the word Islam means “submission”, or the total surrender of oneself to God.” I’ll buy that. Interestingly, I don’t know of any fundamentalist Christians who would have a problem with that concept.
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The UNITY of Islam, La il aha [thn\] il la Allah, ashadu Adam from the clay rasulluulah… ashadu Eve from the rib, or ribosome, or meiosis, or mitosis, or amino acids of Adam, therefore BOTH, you, Adam, and you, Eve, rasulluulah, messnegers, coaches, ambassadors, life guards… to and from you, the one God, ashadu Noah, rasulluulah…
Adam and Eve would encompass all peoples, and therefore which religion applies to them would be irrelevant. But I think that of the three major monotheistic religions of the world, both Islam and Christianity would have to give it up to Judaism.
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The Highest Chain of Command…
So, to rescue our brothers (and sisters) whose homes are their castle…
OK, I’m with you. I’m pretty drunk, but I’m with you…
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If the fundamentalists, and their sometimes not as diligent, extremist, cousins are permitted to have a mosque as big as an entire valley, with mosque rules in side their border, and a Vatican City – style status at the United Nations, and their own Sovereignty inside six strategically located valley mosques, THEN would they be more risk averse to initiating conflict by force?
So what you’re saying is let them have their way until they get so big that they have too much to lose by acting like idiots? Sorry, that’s not the appropriate way to handle idiots. Not when they can make the rest of us so miserable while we wait for them to become “mainstream.”
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Meanwhile, the SECULAR area would welcome any muslim no matter how Amish, or Quaker, or Morman, or Puritan, or Orthodox, or Conservative…
I’ve never heard of an Amish, Quaker, Mormon, or Puritan Muslim. I don’t know about “orthodox” or “conservative,” but it sounds to me like you’re listing Christian and maybe Jewish denominations.
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And if this majority could be persuaded by peaceful means to change the Provincial charter to also convert the province into another Valley size mosque as wide as the call to prayer could be heard at all points inside the area at any given prayer, then so be it,
Wait a second, are you saying that all of Muslim politics is based on natural sonic distance? Really? Because that’s at least as dumb as some of the stuff that Orthodox Jews come up with.
Apparently, all we really need is some audio engineers up in this business, and the Middle East is solved.
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Islam is a voluntary faith. It is only the refusal to TOLERATE Islam that can be punished, and only then up until the point of surrender.
Fair enough. I knew there were reasons I liked Islam, but I forgot what they were what with all the bombs and all.
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They can require quarantine, passport, visa, and to be physically and financially able to visit, but they cannot exclude anyone who truly practices Islam in the conservative, orthodox, fundamentalist style, or even MORE so, if such a thing is possible to recite the names of all 25 of the main prophets as well as that of our prophet Mohammed, may peace be upon him, and them, when bearing witness.
Who decides which people count as practicing Islam in a “conservative, orthodox, fundamentalist style?” Is there a specific court structure? Or is memorizing 25 names sufficient? Not picking on Islam specifically here, this kind of problem also applies to Israel’s “right of return” only allowing Orthodox forms of conversion.
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But when OUTSIDE the mosque, “Tolerate Islam, or die,” is the rule.
I ain’t in no Mosque. And I’ll only tolerate you if you tolerate me. Got any rules for that?
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…the same way all of Saudi Arabia is one big mosque…
There’s no way you’re going to convince me that Saudi Arabia constitutes a sonic “valley.” I think the ibn Sauds just have some good PR going there.
April 16th, 2009 at 4:02 am(continued)
Now if a woman feels oppressed she must be free to LEAVE the conservative valley mosque without fear of retribution to anyone.
So if she wants to leave her boyfriend she has to leave town? Screw that. He can leave. Or they can ignore each other.
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Women have the right to property in Islam, as do men, and the failure to report on the inheritance rights of Iraqi widows is a gapping hole in the news coverage.
Like what? I thought we blew everything into rubble.
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If the Orthodox muslims with their mosques as big as two valleys, or more, depending upon the strength of the voices of their Azan… are so harsh on their women that too many leave, then that will be a lesson to them, although some abused women blame themselves, ironically.
Yep, you’d think that all the women who were sick of being treated like crap by the fathers who raised them, the brothers raised with them, and the husbands they were married off to, would just up and leave instead of taking that crap. Just strike out on the open road, wandering off to… where? Huh. For some strange reason they put up with the abuse. I guess that means they must like it?
This is a seriously f**ked up line of argumentation. Just because somebody doesn’t solve their own problem doesn’t mean that they don’t need it solved.
Duh.
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…the orthodox muslims find new “Alhumdullilah!” and relief from the trials and tribulations of our skitzophrenic, “man on man” “hot” pursuit, “Talley, Ho!” that is the frustrated, and sublimated libido of “animus seeking animus” rejected by a stern father, seeking a surrogate father in the vice president, and using the US military as a surrogate son, to compensate for having twin daughters, and thus manifesting a homo-sexual style of [jet] ‘consumation’, warped into violence, to kill the other men who symbolize the frustration toward the father, instead of the “Brokeback Mountain” unrepressed transference of the love toward the Mother projected on to another man, because no woman is deemed ‘adequate’ to replace the Mother…
I don’t know who you are, but you can sure write some sexy gay poetry. I’m straight, but you keep talking like that and I think I might be “converted,” if you know what I’m saying!
April 16th, 2009 at 4:09 am(continued)
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So when the orthodox muslims are freed from our US mental illness of a video game generation of hunters and killers, instead of defenders and repellers…
Interesting basic division of activity. That’s totally alien to Western/Euro thought. We think of ourselves as hunters or gatherers, but we don’t really do the defender/repeller thing.
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… then their own mental illness issues such as being used by the US to fight the Soviets, and then abandoned by the US, and set up by USAma bin Laden…
I knew there was something to be gained in parsing your textwall after all! So you see him as our product? We see him as yours! We hold your culture and sociopolitical aims as completely responsible for the creation of that dick, so much so that we couldn’t even imagine you holding us responsible for his existence!
That’s awesome… ly f**ked up.
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…to be the scape goat for an excuse by the U.S. to attack them…
Oh come on, he blew up the freakin’ WTC. Admit it, he totally asked for an ass-whoopin’ there.
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… they will now instead have a chance to find relief… and love, in their families and friends, and the higher levels of the chain of command such as “siratal l-ladzeena an amta alyahim gbrayhil maughdubi alayhim wa lad dallllllleeeen. Ameen.”
Hello? Come on back, we’re trying to have a rational dialogue here. Focus! *snap* *snap* Focus!
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“…those who are not tormented, and who torment others not…”
I know like maybe three people who fit this description in my life. I doubt if you know more. Awesome people are rare, but apparently equally distributed across all cultures and religions.
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(skipping a bunch of you totally lost me stuff)
…except men must still not see one another between the belly button and the knee…
Oh come on, are you really that homophobic? We should introduce you to these people we have, we call “Mormons.” You’d get along great, trust me.
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If you have a doubt about what has been revealed to you, try to write a response like unto it that resolves your doubt(s). Then take it to your witnesses, if you have any besides the one God, and if they are not able to show you the logic of this post, then post your own response so that this one might be diagnosed and healed.
Dude, what do you think I’m doing right here? Holy crap, Muhammed foresaw Internet messageboard trolling?!?
That’s awesome.
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‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth’, but if you forgive the tooth that is owed to you, then that is a charity for you (and your family) here after, even unto the seventh generation, God willing, in sha lah, who hopes,
Word, yo. I’m totally down with that.
April 16th, 2009 at 4:21 amOh, just as a quick reminder, 300 Afghan women were pelted with stones by 1000 Afghan men for protesting against a pro-rape law.
I guess they should have just “left the valley” instead, huh?
April 16th, 2009 at 5:11 amOK Pat obviously senile dementia has set in. Time to see the nice young men that will need to take care of you soon.burun estetigi rent a car arac kiralama
April 18th, 2009 at 5:25 amsac ekimi