I guess they should have just “left the valley” instead, huh?

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So when the orthodox muslims are freed from our US mental illness of a video game generation of hunters and killers, instead of defenders and repellers…

Interesting basic division of activity. That’s totally alien to Western/Euro thought. We think of ourselves as hunters or gatherers, but we don’t really do the defender/repeller thing.

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… then their own mental illness issues such as being used by the US to fight the Soviets, and then abandoned by the US, and set up by USAma bin Laden…

I knew there was something to be gained in parsing your textwall after all! So you see him as our product? We see him as yours! We hold your culture and sociopolitical aims as completely responsible for the creation of that dick, so much so that we couldn’t even imagine you holding us responsible for his existence!

That’s awesome… ly f**ked up.

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…to be the scape goat for an excuse by the U.S. to attack them…

Oh come on, he blew up the freakin’ WTC. Admit it, he totally asked for an ass-whoopin’ there.

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… they will now instead have a chance to find relief… and love, in their families and friends, and the higher levels of the chain of command such as “siratal l-ladzeena an amta alyahim gbrayhil maughdubi alayhim wa lad dallllllleeeen. Ameen.”

Hello? Come on back, we’re trying to have a rational dialogue here. Focus! *snap* *snap* Focus!

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“…those who are not tormented, and who torment others not…”

I know like maybe three people who fit this description in my life. I doubt if you know more. Awesome people are rare, but apparently equally distributed across all cultures and religions.

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(skipping a bunch of you totally lost me stuff)

…except men must still not see one another between the belly button and the knee…

Oh come on, are you really that homophobic? We should introduce you to these people we have, we call “Mormons.” You’d get along great, trust me.

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If you have a doubt about what has been revealed to you, try to write a response like unto it that resolves your doubt(s). Then take it to your witnesses, if you have any besides the one God, and if they are not able to show you the logic of this post, then post your own response so that this one might be diagnosed and healed.

Dude, what do you think I’m doing right here? Holy crap, Muhammed foresaw Internet messageboard trolling?!?

That’s awesome.

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‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth’, but if you forgive the tooth that is owed to you, then that is a charity for you (and your family) here after, even unto the seventh generation, God willing, in sha lah, who hopes,

Word, yo. I’m totally down with that.

Now if a woman feels oppressed she must be free to LEAVE the conservative valley mosque without fear of retribution to anyone.

So if she wants to leave her boyfriend she has to leave town? Screw that. He can leave. Or they can ignore each other.

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Women have the right to property in Islam, as do men, and the failure to report on the inheritance rights of Iraqi widows is a gapping hole in the news coverage.

Like what? I thought we blew everything into rubble.

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If the Orthodox muslims with their mosques as big as two valleys, or more, depending upon the strength of the voices of their Azan… are so harsh on their women that too many leave, then that will be a lesson to them, although some abused women blame themselves, ironically.

Yep, you’d think that all the women who were sick of being treated like crap by the fathers who raised them, the brothers raised with them, and the husbands they were married off to, would just up and leave instead of taking that crap. Just strike out on the open road, wandering off to… where? Huh. For some strange reason they put up with the abuse. I guess that means they must like it?

This is a seriously f**ked up line of argumentation. Just because somebody doesn’t solve their own problem doesn’t mean that they don’t need it solved.

Duh.

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…the orthodox muslims find new “Alhumdullilah!” and relief from the trials and tribulations of our skitzophrenic, “man on man” “hot” pursuit, “Talley, Ho!” that is the frustrated, and sublimated libido of “animus seeking animus” rejected by a stern father, seeking a surrogate father in the vice president, and using the US military as a surrogate son, to compensate for having twin daughters, and thus manifesting a homo-sexual style of [jet] ‘consumation’, warped into violence, to kill the other men who symbolize the frustration toward the father, instead of the “Brokeback Mountain” unrepressed transference of the love toward the Mother projected on to another man, because no woman is deemed ‘adequate’ to replace the Mother…

I don’t know who you are, but you can sure write some sexy gay poetry. I’m straight, but you keep talking like that and I think I might be “converted,” if you know what I’m saying!

General comments: thanks for the explanation about how a lot of Islam works. My responses are just my usual off-the-cuff criticisms, most of which would apply to any religion, not necessarily Islam in particular. Although, I gotta admit, it looks like you’ve got a lot of particulars here. More than I knew about before I read this at least.

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aHij akab Says:

“Live free or die,”: is the motto of the Great Granite State of New Hampshire, therefore “Tolerate Islam, or die,” is of equal logic.

Live free =/= tolerate Islam. To the average Westerner, those are totally different propositions. So, no. While tolerating Islam is cool and all, it’s not like a lifeblood do-or-die thing to me.

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The question is, “What IS ISlam? Is it really the source of the verb “to be” found in the English language? Is lamb? Is real? Is (Eng) fish? Or is it a mere coincidence that this most irregular of verbs, so close to “ideena s-siratal mustaqueem” (show us thy straight way) is similar?

“Islam” would not be a verb. I don’t go out and Islam of a Friday night.

Wikipedia tells me “the word Islam means “submission”, or the total surrender of oneself to God.” I’ll buy that. Interestingly, I don’t know of any fundamentalist Christians who would have a problem with that concept.

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The UNITY of Islam, La il aha [thn\] il la Allah, ashadu Adam from the clay rasulluulah… ashadu Eve from the rib, or ribosome, or meiosis, or mitosis, or amino acids of Adam, therefore BOTH, you, Adam, and you, Eve, rasulluulah, messnegers, coaches, ambassadors, life guards… to and from you, the one God, ashadu Noah, rasulluulah…

Adam and Eve would encompass all peoples, and therefore which religion applies to them would be irrelevant. But I think that of the three major monotheistic religions of the world, both Islam and Christianity would have to give it up to Judaism.

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The Highest Chain of Command…

So, to rescue our brothers (and sisters) whose homes are their castle…

OK, I’m with you. I’m pretty drunk, but I’m with you…

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If the fundamentalists, and their sometimes not as diligent, extremist, cousins are permitted to have a mosque as big as an entire valley, with mosque rules in side their border, and a Vatican City – style status at the United Nations, and their own Sovereignty inside six strategically located valley mosques, THEN would they be more risk averse to initiating conflict by force?

So what you’re saying is let them have their way until they get so big that they have too much to lose by acting like idiots? Sorry, that’s not the appropriate way to handle idiots. Not when they can make the rest of us so miserable while we wait for them to become “mainstream.”

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Meanwhile, the SECULAR area would welcome any muslim no matter how Amish, or Quaker, or Morman, or Puritan, or Orthodox, or Conservative…

I’ve never heard of an Amish, Quaker, Mormon, or Puritan Muslim. I don’t know about “orthodox” or “conservative,” but it sounds to me like you’re listing Christian and maybe Jewish denominations.

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And if this majority could be persuaded by peaceful means to change the Provincial charter to also convert the province into another Valley size mosque as wide as the call to prayer could be heard at all points inside the area at any given prayer, then so be it,

Wait a second, are you saying that all of Muslim politics is based on natural sonic distance? Really? Because that’s at least as dumb as some of the stuff that Orthodox Jews come up with.

Apparently, all we really need is some audio engineers up in this business, and the Middle East is solved.

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Islam is a voluntary faith. It is only the refusal to TOLERATE Islam that can be punished, and only then up until the point of surrender.

Fair enough. I knew there were reasons I liked Islam, but I forgot what they were what with all the bombs and all.

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They can require quarantine, passport, visa, and to be physically and financially able to visit, but they cannot exclude anyone who truly practices Islam in the conservative, orthodox, fundamentalist style, or even MORE so, if such a thing is possible to recite the names of all 25 of the main prophets as well as that of our prophet Mohammed, may peace be upon him, and them, when bearing witness.

Who decides which people count as practicing Islam in a “conservative, orthodox, fundamentalist style?” Is there a specific court structure? Or is memorizing 25 names sufficient? Not picking on Islam specifically here, this kind of problem also applies to Israel’s “right of return” only allowing Orthodox forms of conversion.

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But when OUTSIDE the mosque, “Tolerate Islam, or die,” is the rule.

I ain’t in no Mosque. And I’ll only tolerate you if you tolerate me. Got any rules for that?

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…the same way all of Saudi Arabia is one big mosque…

There’s no way you’re going to convince me that Saudi Arabia constitutes a sonic “valley.” I think the ibn Sauds just have some good PR going there.

My point is that there are atrocities and have been atrocities all over this world some much greater than others. When we are not directly involved what measures do we take? How far do we go? Many people in this Country are still fighting for rights. We continue to evolve in our beliefs. Trying to force others into what is “right” never works. It is a sad, long and hard process which the Afghan people must endure.

The list is much too long to intervene in every situation. My personal belief is that this is one we sit out.

We do apply political pressure on these types of Countries as well we should but beyond that this is a problem that has to be overcome internally.

Yes apparently people tend to hear only what they want hear and read only what they want to read and totally miss the piont.

The UNITY of Islam, La il aha [thn\] il la Allah, ashadu Adam from the clay rasulluulah… ashadu Eve from the rib, or ribosome, or meiosis, or mitosis, or amino acids of Adam, therefore BOTH, you, Adam, and you, Eve, rasulluulah, messnegers, coaches, ambassadors, life guards… to and from you, the one God, ashadu Noah, rasulluulah…

Ya akhi, you have broken my brain. Congratulations.

There is a nasty troll named Proud who posts here. I think they are mistaking you for that person.

Cheers.

And we should continue to overlook genocide, too, I suppose? Or is that worse because people are being slaughtered wholesale and that’s worse than the savage rape of untold numbers of women who either have to put up with it or be murdered by their own husbands?

The replier to your original comment was dead on – there is no comparison between matters of culture and the robbing of basic human rights. All countries have some level of rights violations, and we should be doing what we can do deal with that as a global community. That includes letting these governments know that what they are doing is in no way, shape, or form acceptable, and at minimum allowing political asylum to any woman that comes to the US to escape the horrific treatment she can expect by remaining in her home country. It shouldn’t have to come to that, but it does.

How, by the way, do you suggest that these women fight back? It sounds all well and good to a person who was brought up in a country where they have the right to speak out against what they don’t like, protest when they feel they need to, and use the law to really fight things they feel are wrong. But when you’ve grown up oppressed and as a second, third, or fourth-class citizen, and you know that protesting could mean lifelong imprisonment and/or death, it’s a different story altogether.

I see where you’re going, but it really doesn’t matter if there is a huge leap between porn and marital rape, because by sanctioning and legalizing rape, they are going out of their way to directly violate the rights of the women in their country.

They don’t have the right to decide that raping a human being is “just as bad or worse than” porn that no one is forcing you to look at. I’m sorry, but they don’t. I don’t care if they’re a sovereign nation or not, the UN has a Declaration of Universal Rights, and by allowing and condoning the rape of their women, they are violating it, period.

It’s not acceptable, and that’s all there is to it. It’s not a matter of culture.

The question is, “What IS ISlam? Is it really the source of the verb “to be” found in the English language? Is lamb? Is real? Is (Eng) fish? Or is it a mere coincidence that this most irregular of verbs, so close to “ideena s-siratal mustaqueem” (show us thy straight way) is similar?

The competition, yea, even war, of the ancient hypnotizers: language. The fear the pied piper of Hamilin will charm and hypnotize whose children and lead them away…

The UNITY of Islam, La il aha [thn\] il la Allah, ashadu Adam from the clay rasulluulah… ashadu Eve from the rib, or ribosome, or meiosis, or mitosis, or amino acids of Adam, therefore BOTH, you, Adam, and you, Eve, rasulluulah, messnegers, coaches, ambassadors, life guards… to and from you, the one God, ashadu Noah, rasulluulah…

The Highest Chain of Command overarching the tactical details of crime and punishment: “siratal l-lad zeenah, an amta, alayhim, grayhill maughdubi alayhim wa lad dallllllleeeeen. Ameen.” – “Thy straight way that is known to us by the confidence of countenance of rhythm, and bearing, and demeanor of those who are not tormented, and who torment others not,” – The summit of the highest chain of command can get lost to view when you are lower on the mountain, in the underdog position, struggling to protect your home, and your rights from the wheel, and paved roads of the sea land van culture with it’s subdivide, and resell for more – “Pawn broker” mentality.

So, to rescue our brothers (and sisters) whose homes are their castle, and who are under an attack not unlike the genocide perpetrated by the East Indies trading company against China in the Opium Wars, and by the West Indies Trading company in the bubble economy of Mayan, Incan, and Aztec enslavement, and Cherokee, Chyene, Cree, Souix, etc. extinction… might go as follows:

A mosque (or church) has the right to grow as large as it can, as long as anyone who wants to is free to leave without retribution against anyone, just as the Iranian who won the Nobel Peace prize a few years ago was free to leave Iran to pick up her prize.

If the fundamentalists, and their sometimes not as diligent, extremist, cousins are permitted to have a mosque as big as an entire valley, with mosque rules in side their border, and a Vatican City – style status at the United Nations, and their own Sovereignty inside six strategically located valley mosques, THEN would they be more risk averse to initiating conflict by force? Because now they would be at the summit of Islam: with their OWN Mosque as far as the voice of the call to prayer without electrical aid could be heard by all their Imam without overlapping.

Meanwhile, the SECULAR area would welcome any muslim no matter how Amish, or Quaker, or Morman, or Puritan, or Orthodox, or Conservative the muslims might be as long as the rule “Tolerate Islam, or die” was enforced in the SECULAR area. [sund]

The fundamentalists could compete in elections in the secular area and through “Decision Based Islam” attempt to win a majority [thn\] And if this majority could be persuaded by peaceful means to change the Provincial charter to also convert the province into another Valley size mosque as wide as the call to prayer could be heard at all points inside the area at any given prayer, then so be it, ma sha lah, but not by force. Islam is a voluntary faith. It is only the refusal to TOLERATE Islam that can be punished, and only then up until the point of surrender. AFter surrender the vanquished are not REQUIRED [thn\] to convert to Islam, that can be only a voluntary decision on their part between them and their Allah.
Our prophet, Mohammed, may peace be upon him, instituted the practice of letting non-believers pay taxes, while Muslims who paid the annual Zakat charity to the mosque were e x e m p t e d from the tax; xref: 750 generations ago the idea of tax deductible charities – currently practiced in the US as if it were our idea. Fear of not giving credit where credit is due, more than fear of being hurt by giving credit to Islam, Maliki yo mid deen, because of the Judgement day.

So, with this new model, the fundamentalist can keep anyone out of their valley size mosques, but they must let in anyone who truly practices Islam, no matter where they come from. They can require quarantine, passport, visa, and to be physically and financially able to visit, but they cannot exclude anyone who truly practices Islam in the conservative, orthodox, fundamentalist style, or even MORE so, if such a thing is possible to recite the names of all 25 of the main prophets as well as that of our prophet Mohammed, may peace be upon him, and them, when bearing witness.

But when OUTSIDE the mosque, “Tolerate Islam, or die,” is the rule. And should the fundamentalists resort to force instead of voluntary DAWA outreach to win the hearts and minds of less conservative, less orthodox muslims, then, then surely the orthodox muslims would be in the wrong and would risk loosing their valley size mosques [exterior sound] where they DO have the right to insist on as conservative a practice as Islam as they practice because that entire valley is their MOSQUE, the same way all of Saudi Arabia is one big mosque, with many prayer spots and the two most holy prayer spots in all of Islam.

Now if a woman feels oppressed she must be free to LEAVE the conservative valley mosque without fear of retribution to anyone. Women have the right of divorce in Islam, as do men. Women have the right to property in Islam, as do men, and the failure to report on the inheritance rights of Iraqi widows is a gapping hole in the news coverage.

If the Orthodox muslims with their mosques as big as two valleys, or more, depending upon the strength of the voices of their Azan… are so harsh on their women that too many leave, then that will be a lesson to them, although some abused women blame themselves, ironically.

However, if in the new found confidence of being at the summit as the sovereign, in charge of their mosque valleys, the orthodox muslims find new “Alhumdullilah!” and relief from the trials and tribulations of our skitzophrenic, “man on man” “hot” pursuit, “Talley, Ho!” that is the frustrated, and sublimated libido of “animus seeking animus” rejected by a stern father, seeking a surrogate father in the vice president, and using the US military as a surrogate son, to compensate for having twin daughters, and thus manifesting a homo-sexual style of [jet] ‘consumation’, warped into violence, to kill the other men who symbolize the frustration toward the father, instead of the “Brokeback Mountain” unrepressed transference of the love toward the Mother projected on to another man, because no woman is deemed ‘adequate’ to replace the Mother…

So when the orthodox muslims are freed from our US mental illness of a video game generation of hunters and killers, instead of defenders and repellers… then their own mental illness issues such as being used by the US to fight the Soviets, and then abandoned by the US, and set up by USAma bin Laden, to be the scape goat for an excuse by the U.S. to attack them… they will now instead have a chance to find relief… and love, in their families and friends, and the higher levels of the chain of command such as “siratal l-ladzeena an amta alyahim gbrayhil maughdubi alayhim wa lad dallllllleeeen. Ameen.”

And then “Thy straight way that is known to us by the confidence of countenace of rhythm and bearing and demeanor of those who are not tormented, and who torment others not,” will have a chance to rise [BRhnn [wheww heww]] to the surface again, and instead of feeling the need to mandate every fourth day as intimacy day, or response day, or the need to order men to keep their beards, or the need to beat people for failing sura el Nur which permits only people who are related by marriage or birth to see one another 100%, except men must still not see one another between the belly button and the knee, except for medical reasons…. Then happier times might prevail… and the joy of intimacy might seek fulfillment MORE often than every fourth night… Who kows? God is the Greatest, Alawackbarr.

To apply the logic of Sura 2, Verse 23 and 26 here:

If you have a doubt about what has been revealed to you, try to write a response like unto it that resolves your doubt(s). Then take it to your witnesses, if you have any besides the one God, and if they are not able to show you the logic of this post, then post your own response so that this one might be diagnosed and healed.

Be wary of the similitudes, but know which are true comparisons and which are false.

“‘Judge not that we be not judged’ diagnose and heal so that we ourselves might be,’

“‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth’, but if you forgive the tooth that is owed to you, then that is a charity for you (and your family) here after, even unto the seventh generation, God willing, in sha lah, who hopes,’

HUMAN RIGHTS ARE FOR ALL HUMANS!

False equivalency?? No it is not however the point is that many modern civilized countries have horrific customs none of which are the United States responsibilities. These Countries are going through an evolution and it is up to them to fight for them and change things gradually gaining support in their own Countries. These women do need to be heard and commoneded for their actions and in time I am sure that it will lead to good change. After their support grows locally then they can look to support from the world. Intervening now will only lead to greater dislike for America.

BTW I am hardly a right wing newticle type person. about 80 percent of my beliefs lean toward the left with about 20 percent leaning to the right I consider my self a moderate Democrat. all of nut cases Left and Right scare me.

Last time I looked, women were human beings, and as such are entitled to human rights and dignity.

Period.