Obama announces release of Bush-era OLC torture memos.
Obama announces release of Bush-era OLC torture memos.
President Obama announced this afternoon in a written statement that the Justice Department is releasing memos from the Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) between 2002 and 2005 which “speak to techniques that were used in the interrogation of terrorism suspects.” In his statement, Obama laid out his reasoning for making the memos public and announced that his administration would not seek to prosecute individuals who “who carried out their duties relying in good faith upon legal advice from the Department of Justice”:
First, the interrogation techniques described in these memos have already been widely reported. Second, the previous Administration publicly acknowledged portions of the program – and some of the practices – associated with these memos. Third, I have already ended the techniques described in the memos through an Executive Order. Therefore, withholding these memos would only serve to deny facts that have been in the public domain for some time. This could contribute to an inaccurate accounting of the past, and fuel erroneous and inflammatory assumptions about actions taken by the United States.
In releasing these memos, it is our intention to assure those who carried out their duties relying in good faith upon legal advice from the Department of Justice that they will not be subject to prosecution. The men and women of our intelligence community serve courageously on the front lines of a dangerous world.
Attorney General Eric Holder issued a parallel statement in which he not only promised not to pursue prosecutions but also to provide representation “in any state or federal judicial or administrative proceeding brought against” any CIA employee who acted “reasonably” upon the advice of the OLC. Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Pat Leahy (D-VT) responded to the release by reiterating his desire to hold a “Commission of Inquiry” into the Bush administration’s use of torture in order to gain a “thorough accounting of what happened.” Read the memos here.
This release, as well as the decision to ban the use of such techniques in the future, will strengthen both our national security and our commitment to the rule of law and help restore our country's standing in the international community. The legal analysis and some of the techniques in these memos are truly shocking and mark a disturbing chapter in our nation's history.
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Woo hoo!
It looks like the executive branch isn’t going to run with this ball, which is OK as long as they don’t try to stop anyone else from doing so.
Next we need the legislature to step up.
April 16th, 2009 at 4:42 pmI have a problem with this statement, at the end: “That is why we have released these memos, and that is why we have taken steps to ensure that the actions described within them never take place again.”
The only step to ensure it doesn’t happen again is to prosecute the people who did it this time. That’s what laws are for.
April 16th, 2009 at 4:42 pmWhat about arrests and prosecutions?
April 16th, 2009 at 4:42 pm“WE WERE JUST FOLLOWING ORDERS”
HEIL HOLDER!
April 16th, 2009 at 4:42 pmNow that the WH has declared that ‘the little Eichmanns’ won’t be punished for following orders, let’s go after the ones that gave those illegal orders, OK. Hmmmm?
April 16th, 2009 at 4:43 pm“who carried out their duties relying in good faith upon legal advice from the Department of Justice”
___________________________________________________________
Um…OK — I understand the “they were only following orders” rationale, even if I’m not a fan of it.
But what about those from the DOJ who were GIVING this “legal advice”? Are they accountable?
April 16th, 2009 at 4:45 pmWow, everyday, a little more of a let down with Obama.
I think the Lady Clinton would have had more balls than Obama.
April 16th, 2009 at 4:46 pmWell I’m glad president Obama did the right thing. And not much information seems to be blocked out. This restores a little bit of faith I had in him. BUT I’m still going to keep my eye on this adminstration. We’ve still got to make sure they hold the Bush adminstration accountable for their actions. Torture is Torture PERIOD!
April 16th, 2009 at 4:46 pmAnd you know what that means! Expect a sea of republicans dropping to the floor and dragging their butts on the carpet like a dog with worms!
April 16th, 2009 at 4:47 pmSo how about we prosecute the monsters who wrote the g*damned memos in the first place???
April 16th, 2009 at 4:48 pmI can’t wait to read them…
I don’t agree with not prosecuting torturers. Is the DoJ the only department that can charge these people?
April 16th, 2009 at 4:48 pm“…withholding these memos would only serve to deny facts that have been in the public domain for some time. This could contribute to an inaccurate accounting of the past…”
Shorthand: All efforts by BushCo aka CheneyCo to rewrite history will be quashed. There’s hope that, by offering immunity to those who carried out the crimes, those who authorized torture may be prosecuted.
PEACE
April 16th, 2009 at 4:53 pmAs little sympathy as I have for the CIA torturers, it makes sense not to prosecute them for following orders that the Justice Department declared legal. I’m going to be very patient with President Obama on this because he is very patient, and he has a lot on his plate now. Also, their is a very whacky portion of the population who is vehemently opposed to him for spurious reasons, and they have a lot of powerful corporate support.
April 16th, 2009 at 4:55 pmHolder’s presenting the Nürnberg “we were just following orders” defence for the CIA personnel.
If there is a justifiable “reasonable reliance on government authority” defence (as in the Barker case), that is something to be presented as an affirmative defence. Give ‘em lawyers if you must, but prosecute them, and make them show they tried to “reasonably” follow the law … and see if that works for a ius cogens crime like torture. And if the jurors are familiar with the N&uum;rnberg precedent and they’re convicted, Obama can pardon them if he thinks that justice warrants such a pardon.
But ferchrissakes!!!: At least try them!!! Make them show how what they did could have been thought “reasonable”.
Cheers,
April 16th, 2009 at 4:56 pmNot happy about the hands off approach. That excuse of just following orders has been proven not to stand up under scrutiny in the past (Nuremberg, Tokyo)…It’s not ok to use it now.
Nuremberg Principle:
“The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him.”
It still holds…
April 16th, 2009 at 4:56 pmThe release of these documents is very gutsy and a huge progress. Prosecuting these CIA agents will be a waste of time, they were following what was, disgustingly, “legal”. No court will convict them and their acquittal will just overshadow the horrible details in these memos.
April 16th, 2009 at 4:56 pmI’m torn on the prosecution of the torturers. I don’t think there should be blanket immunity for them all, but I also don’t think we should go after them when they were acting on orders. The difference between this and Nuremberg was that with the tortures here, very few people actually died. I know it’s splitting hairs, but it is a difference. In the few cases where deaths occurred, those torturers should be prosecuted. But otherwise, go after the big fish and let the minnows swim. They totally screwed up but they were being told that these techniques were legal and that the people they were being used on were holding critical information to preventing a future attack. Go after the ones who fed them that load of BS.
April 16th, 2009 at 4:58 pmHuffington Post has them posted. Can the lawyers get disbarred at least?
April 16th, 2009 at 4:58 pmwhat i find interesting is that, in light of the Spanish proceedings, the President highlights the protection of those who followed legal recommendations, but not those who made them. This is very bad news for the Yoos and Bybees of the world.
April 16th, 2009 at 4:58 pmThe caveats “good faith” and “reasonably” do not go up the chain of command very far. The prosecution door may be shut, but it does not appear locked.
April 16th, 2009 at 4:59 pmHey doxastic, I keep wondering the same thing. Is the door still open for prosecution of the ones that gave the orders -BushCheneyRove,Rice,etc.? The plot thickens – I HOPE!
April 16th, 2009 at 5:06 pmThe thing about Nuremburg was regular soldiers weren’t on trial—high ranking leaders were. If you take it all the way down the chain, then every soldier is guilty of war crimes. No government would take such a position, because it would completely undermine their authority.
April 16th, 2009 at 5:07 pmWhat’s the story about the duck? If it looks like torture, if it sounds like torture, if you think it might be torture and need a memo to cover your ass, it’s probably torture. Shameful.
April 16th, 2009 at 5:07 pmYayyyyy!!!! It’s about time!
Toss em in a cell and throw away the key!
April 16th, 2009 at 5:10 pmActually, the Spanish decided not to prosecute.
April 16th, 2009 at 5:11 pmAny chance this is Obama trying, like FDR, to be “made to do the right thing”? That he wants to appear to be dragged kicking and screaming into prosecutions?
April 16th, 2009 at 5:12 pmAmorality
April 16th, 2009 at 5:13 pmHollow soldiers of fortune
Tears turn dust to mud
If Senator Leahy is interested in getting all the facts about this matter, these memos whether they are Bush’s or Obama’s will not help him.
The best way to get to all facts in this case is to hear from people who were subjected to such treaments in jails,and to hear from the people who legalized torture and the people who did the act.
Bush’s memos were written in a way to find Bush was doing the right thing,but that might not be enough.
April 16th, 2009 at 5:13 pmI know the just following orders defense isn’t popular, but it’s demonstrably true that otherwise good people will do some pretty messed up crap to others if a person of authority tells them to (see Milgram tests).
We shouldn’t go after these career guys who were ordered to perform reprehensible tasks. We should go after the guys that issued those orders.
April 16th, 2009 at 5:13 pmthe end is near.
war crimes left unpunished means they will come back.
and this from a country that says it believes in law and order.
if europe were not so spineless they would charge us with war crimes.
everyone wants to sell us their stuff. always about money.
April 16th, 2009 at 5:14 pmBush loved to torture people; Cheney loved to torture people; and Mr. Known-unknowns loved to torture people. And the Obama Administration is going to protect these torturers and those in the CIA that carried out these criminal acts? Why? Does Obama secretly love torture too? Torture non-prosecution you can believe in…
April 16th, 2009 at 5:23 pmMy take is this:
As a veteran of the United States Air Force, it was incumbent upon me (while I was in the service) to follow orders. Under the U.C.M.J., however, it is also incumbent upon service members to refuse to follow orders that may be unlawful.
The simple facts here are that the Justice Department (Specifically Yoo and Bybee) wrote memos outlining what was “legal”. The problem with that is that the Justice Department is under the auspices of the Executive Branch and it’s not in their purview to make or interpret the Law (that would be the roles of the Legislative & Judicial Branches respectively). In other words, these memos shouldn’t have provided cover for ANYONE participating in these so-called “enhanced interrogations”. There needs to be a special prosecutor investigating this issue (and several others i.e: warrant-less wiretapping) and EVERYONE who had a roll in torturing ANY detainee in US Custody should have to defend those actions in a court of law.
The “I was just following orders” defense didn’t work at Nuremberg and it shouldn’t work in this case either. I assure you that most of these career CIA guys and gals knew that what they were doing violated both US and International law and they should have to answer for that (along with the individuals who crafted the memos and gave the orders)!
April 16th, 2009 at 5:25 pmresearcher Says:
the end is near.
war crimes left unpunished means they will come back.
and this from a country that says it believes in law and order.
if europe were not so spineless they would charge us with war crimes.
everyone wants to sell us their stuff. always about money.
**
i’m not buying.
:)
April 16th, 2009 at 5:26 pmO/T: why is Chrissy Mathews having the convicted criminal Tom Delay on his Fluffball TV show on MSNBC? I am very tired of seeing Bush gangster regime criminals on television “news” shows.
April 16th, 2009 at 5:27 pmObama has done the right thing…released the memos…ended the techniques described in the memos through an Executive Order.
Now the Ball is in the court’s court. If those subjected to “Enhanced techniques” get their day in court with a Competent Lawyer,… then the actions of Bush’s Office of Legal Council will be held accountable for their Actions.
April 16th, 2009 at 5:27 pmDaveE Says:
Any chance this is Obama trying, like FDR, to be “made to do the right thing”? That he wants to appear to be dragged kicking and screaming into prosecutions?
I’ve been wondering about this for awhile now. Release the memos at a slow pace, allow the general public (at least those who read!) to absorb the contents, gain support for further investigations, release more info, and eventually get to prosecutions.
It makes it appear that the American people are demanding to know the truth and hold the criminals to account for their actions.
PEACE
April 16th, 2009 at 5:30 pmBrian Crooks Says:
They totally screwed up but they were being told that these techniques were legal and that the people they were being used on were holding critical information to preventing a future attack. Go after the ones who fed them that load of BS.
April 16th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
___________
I have a lot of difficulty seeing a “good faith” arguent here. Torture is torture. It is illegal. No memo excuses it.
The CIA agents who participated in torture did so not reluctantly, but willingly. Even with gleeful sadism, according to Jane Meyer. They do not deserve a pass.
April 16th, 2009 at 5:33 pmI think Obama is taking the right approach here. He does not necessarily initiate the investigation and charging of crimes against the DOJ officials or Cheney, et. al. I think it is much better for Congress to take up the issue in the first instance and I hope that it will at some point.
Right now, there are more pressing issues to address. But I see nothing in Obama’s statements that preclude pursuing certain people in leadership or advisory positions for war crimes. As important as this issue is, addressing it right now will not reduce avoidable foreclosures, free up the credit market or help pass Obama’s budget initiatives.
April 16th, 2009 at 5:34 pmBut WILL they prosecute those who have the illegal orders?
April 16th, 2009 at 5:36 pmI reckon they should send a few copies over to the new Bush library.
I’m certain they’ll wish to display them prominently.
All part of that outstanding legacy, right ?
April 16th, 2009 at 5:36 pmHorse Hockey! Obama’s a tool for powerheads.
April 16th, 2009 at 5:37 pmSo now I can get a lawyer to say that robbing banks is legal and I can just go around robbing banks….cool.
They did not say that the ones who GAVE the orders wouldn’t be though.
April 16th, 2009 at 5:38 pmThe ball is what court’s court? Someone has to bring charges. Obama’s said the Justice Department will be defending BushCo and his torturing minions.
We have a wimp Congress, which is complicit in the crime. They won’t do squat.
April 16th, 2009 at 5:41 pmAs I understand it, it is the executive branch that is tasked with enforcing the laws of the land. The legislative branch writes the laws. The executive branch enforces the laws. The judicial branch interprets the laws. The ball is in Obama’s court, not the Congress or Supremes. Game, set, match. No prosecution.
PEACE
April 16th, 2009 at 5:47 pmI feel very sorry for the people in the CIA who were ordered to commit torture. I’m sure they would have lost their jobs if they had refused to do so. I wonder how those people are able to live with what they did and how they sleep at night. Perhaps we need to authorize some counseling for them.
April 16th, 2009 at 5:55 pmThe Office of Legal Council Under Bush MAY have undermined the Whole Case against alleged Terrorists held at Guantanimo by obtaining Evidence Using Illegal Torture.
This opens the whole can of worms to the light of day. That’s why Bush wanted to keep Guantanimo open, and the Inmates in Legal Limbo.
April 16th, 2009 at 5:56 pmEvery move of this Administration feels like 2 steps forward, 1 step back… but at least we’re moving forward.
April 16th, 2009 at 5:56 pmstateofthedivision Says:
The ball is what court’s court? Someone has to bring charges. Obama’s said the Justice Department will be defending BushCo and his torturing minions.
As usual you use distortions to attack our President. He has said he will defend the people who were ORDERED to do it, not those who made the policy and did the ordering.
Do you really want to see the CIA officers who were ordered to commit these acts prosecuted?
April 16th, 2009 at 6:01 pmstateofthedivision Says:
Horse Hockey! Obama’s a tool for powerheads.
I’m not really sure who you are a tool for, but the evidence points to the fact that you are, in fact, a tool.
April 16th, 2009 at 6:02 pmI’m still betting that Obama will be prosecuting the Bush Crime Family. He’s just not declaring war at this time because he already has his hands full trying to work with the tea bagging obstructionist party without declaring war on them too. What I believe he is doing is slowly but surely releasing damning information until it get to the point where he will have to say, “you know, there’s too much evidence there that they broke the law, I guess we have to prosecute”. The more they release this kind of information, the more the public is going to be asking for prosecutions. He needs more of the public on his side before he can do it without having to worry about the wrath of the Republicans. The last poll I read had more than 50% of Americans saying we need to let it go and move on.
April 16th, 2009 at 6:06 pmBilbo# 46; I recall that one interrogator committed suicide, rather than continue torturing suspects.
It’s my undrstanding that many people (thank fsm ) can’t handle the anxiety of such psychological stress.
9
April 16th, 2009 at 6:25 pmwiley Says:
As little sympathy as I have for the CIA torturers, it makes sense not to prosecute them for following orders that the Justice Department declared legal. I’m going to be very patient with President Obama on this because he is very patient, and he has a lot on his plate now. Also, their is a very whacky portion of the population who is vehemently opposed to him for spurious reasons, and they have a lot of powerful corporate support.
You are FOS. You are defending this guy, who is turning out to be a smiling Bush with some nice suits. I bet you were VERY opposed to Bush when he was torturing. Now you have to defend your wasted vote on somebody who bails out banks, says it’s OK to torture, gives telecoms cart blanche to spy, and now is accelerating this AIPAC-influenced war.
Of course, McCain would have been no better.
Won’t Get Fooled Again…Indeed.
CHANGE®
April 16th, 2009 at 6:26 pmBilbo, for the nth time. Ignore my posts.
If someone committed an illegal act or had an inkling (from their training) that orders were illegal, they should be held responsible. It’s called the rule of law.
The same free pass to Wall Street is clearly implied in today’s news.
Higher ups get off because they didn’t do the torturing. (The Spanish reason for dropping the case)
Lower level enactors don’t get investigated, much less charged because they followed orders.
The big boys are laying a logic trap that sets everyone free. Those who believe it are tools.
April 16th, 2009 at 6:38 pmThe legal analysis and some of the techniques in these memos are truly shocking and mark a disturbing chapter in our nation’s history.
And no one will pay.
April 16th, 2009 at 6:41 pmNo citizen gets a break for committing a crime of which they’re unaware. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
We’re dealing with highly trained military and government personnel. Contractors are but an extension of government authority.
Much more needs investigation and it won’t happen. Obama already carved out most of the case.
April 16th, 2009 at 6:45 pm“inaccurate accounting of the past, and fuel erroneous and inflammatory assumptions about actions taken by the United States”
Without investigations there will be no accurate accounting of the past. Thus it could fuel erroneous and inflammatory assumptions about actions take by the United States.
Obama logic on this case is quicksand.
April 16th, 2009 at 6:47 pmI had the same reaction when CIA Chief Leon Panetta offered his case of “no investigations, no charges”. As the Obama team vets every public phrase, I assumed it was the President’s stand. It took a day or two, but Obama proved it today.
April 16th, 2009 at 6:53 pmBrain From Planet Arous Says, go screw yourself.
April 16th, 2009 at 7:18 pmI agree with Butterfly Mom… Look at the unhinged paranoid rage we saw yesterday from a (small) group of people who nonetheless have quite a platform to voice their ‘concerns’ via Faux News. Starting an aggressive prosecution of the previous misadministration early in his term would have them shrieking louder, and would be a distraction from the work at hand. Wait ’till there’s a public outcry. It will come. Remember, this guy looks at the BIG picture.
April 16th, 2009 at 7:26 pmI am not interested in more scapegoats anyway. This does not excuse the “Justice” Department from going after the criminals that mislead these cia agents into torturing.
We can “look forward” to the tyranny that refusal to hold criminals accountable will bring, or we can be responsible, ethical, moral leaders and do what the Constitution demands that you do.
This ain’t no leftist extremist talking either. This is a regular American.
April 16th, 2009 at 7:49 pmUnder the republicans the war against extremists became a war on American ideals. The war against american ideals is still being waged by the republican party. I kept giving them the benefit of the doubt. no more. They’re done.
April 16th, 2009 at 7:50 pmFact the US did torture and nothing will change that. Now by protecting those who were ordered to torture is leaving the Bush Administration holding the bag. Now all detainees can sue those in the Oval office as they have the order. It pushes the other Countries and the International Court to step up. If nothing is done new terrorest will use the Bush Policy to get away with kidnapping and torturing Americans. I don’t blame President Obama or AG Eric Holder as this Policy was approved by Law Makers and no American spoke up against it.
April 16th, 2009 at 8:15 pmThe extensive torture program designed and approved by the Bush regime exemplifies the extend of their Machiavellian mentality. Their rationale: “We must take a collective crap on the Constitution in order to preserve it”.
April 16th, 2009 at 9:01 pmI’m a little confused about the CIA and Bush Administration’s position on the release of these documents. If they are so certain that they did nothing wrong, then why did they work so hard to prevent disclosure? They should have the courage of their convictions and proudly declare: “We did it, we’re glad we did it, and we would do it all again.”
Unless, of course, they don’t actually believe that their actions were legal and ethical…
April 16th, 2009 at 9:11 pmA little history: The Nuremberg trials were directed at prominent members of the military, political and economic leadership of Nazi Germany and is the best known of all the war crimes trials. HOWEVER, there were other war crime trials against those much lower on the scale who followed the orders — in the death camps. One of the most powerful was the Auschwitz trial in 1947. Those tried included the commandant of the camp, the woman office in charge of the women’s camps, and one of the doctors who was carrying out human experimentation on the captives. The other 34 of those tried were either guards or other doctors in the camp. The trial resulted in 23 death sentences, 16 imprisonments from life sentences to 3 years, and one person acquitted. There were many war crime trials over the years in a number of different countries and people are still looking for war criminals to bring to justice.
Not one single person involved in the crimes that have occurred IN OUR NAME should be allowed NOT to face justice.
April 16th, 2009 at 9:27 pmObama has the chutzpah to go around the world lecturing people on the rule of law, yet pretends to believe that it’s ok to slam heads into walls and torture people to death if the president tells you to. After letting war criminals walk away, he owes a pardon to every prison inmate in the US.
April 16th, 2009 at 9:55 pmI am trying to be patient and believe that President Obama will eventually do the right thing and prosecute these criminals. After these last 8 years, I can barely muster up the faith anymore, that we are the country I grew up in. Maybe it never was what I thought it was to begin with. Anyway, I voted for Obama, gave him whatever meager contributions I could afford, and believed in the “change” that he campaigned on.
I’m glad to see that Keith Olbermann’s special comment is on this topic tonight. We must not give up the good fight–let’s hold his feet to the fire and let him know we expect him to keep his promise for change!
April 16th, 2009 at 10:20 pmI believe President Obama is walking softly on the torture crimes thus far. I agree with the posters above who mentioned that the Obama Administration is going to release small doses at a time until We the People demand justice. Granting those who followed orders immunity may lead to those who issued those orders – yet I strongly believe that anyone committing a violent crime should be held accountable. Karma will take care of the unaccountable.
April 16th, 2009 at 11:01 pm.
Dear John Conyers,
The Rule of Law requires accountability and consequences…
… Ergo it’s name, The Rule of Law.
For without the Rule of Law and consequential accountability, deviations are allowable…
… Ergo, your inability to to be faithful to your Oath of Office.
Congressman, you make cowards look like heroes.
XXOO
America.
.
April 16th, 2009 at 11:08 pm.
America,
Meet your new King…
… Just like the old King.
.
April 16th, 2009 at 11:10 pmObama’s apparent providing protection for Bush and his thugs proves from prosecution,Bush’s claim that our Constitution “It’s just a God Damned Piece of Paper”. Wonder how much Obama had to do with Spain deciding not to prosecute the scum as well. We better get Obama recalled or our so called Demacracy is completely gone. Obama, during the G-20 has already announced the corporate New World Order as one of his missions. He gave more than change to the corrupted corporations and only promises to the People. We are a people with no rights and now he wants to take our private guns away as well. Time yet to panic?
April 16th, 2009 at 11:30 pmCoverup. Obfuscation. Deceit. It goes on.
April 16th, 2009 at 11:45 pmObfuscation. More of the same?
April 16th, 2009 at 11:48 pmIt was President Obama’s choice not to bring charges against the Bush administration for the detention and interrogation methods. President Obama is not about to burn the bridges which has kept this country safe from terrorist attacks. Even President Obama knows one day he may have to enact some of the reversals he made of the Bush policies. Everyone watches what this country does. President Obama is also learning that it’s best not to listen to the critics all the time.
April 17th, 2009 at 12:26 amChapalody Says:
It was President Obama’s choice [... blah blah blah... blah blah blah...] all the time.
_____________
And your opinion is meaningless.
April 17th, 2009 at 12:37 amWhich bridges is it that “has” kept this country safe? The crumbling infrastructure ones Obama is having fixed?
April 17th, 2009 at 12:50 amWhat we need next is :
PROSECUTION!!!!!!!! APPOINT A SEPCIAL PROSECUTOR!!!!!
April 17th, 2009 at 3:09 amI see Obama is doing his best to keep his name and decision making and lack thereof off the front page
that’s because the Obama administration had nothing to do with these memos, nor the policies they defined. He was under immense pressure not to release them, and it’s significant that he has decided to nonetheless.
The most important step from here, will be investigating the Bushco officials who aggressively pushed the torture agenda. I’m with Zooey on this, hoping that Obama is parsing his steps carefully, so that when investigations become imminent, he doesn’t get accused of partisan revenge.
I really hope that’s what’s going on here.
April 17th, 2009 at 3:32 ampdenny said; We are a people with no rights and now he wants to take our private guns away as well
wha?
Bit too much teabagging yesterday pdenny, perchance?
April 17th, 2009 at 3:38 amsorry, think it was spencers butterfly mom, not zooey, who I was agreeing with
April 17th, 2009 at 3:40 amNora Says:
I am trying to be patient and believe that President Obama will eventually do the right thing and prosecute these criminals. After these last 8 years, I can barely muster up the faith anymore, that we are the country I grew up in.
April 16th, 2009 at 10:20 pm
____________
Me too, but time’s not on our side. The statute of limitations is approaching very quickly. If prosecutions don’t start soon, they never will.
April 17th, 2009 at 7:17 amThe executives who approved torture and the lawyers who tried to justify torture must be prosecuted and prosecuted by the United States. Those of us old enough to remember Watergate know all too well just what can happen when crimes at this level go unpunished. Pardoning Nixon and not following through with investigations and prosecutions was one of our Nations worst mistakes in the second half of the 20th Century. It emboldened Nixon/Ford lackies like Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz and Dick Cheney with the certainty that at certain levels of government you can break the law with wanton abandon and there will be no consequences. By not prosecuting Nixon and his direct underlings the ONLY lesson that Cheney and his friends learned was to not leave a paper trail. The lesson that these criminals SHOULD have learned is that if you break the law you go to jail. Plain and simple. President Obama has a rare opportunity for a President in that he holds the key to setting America back on course by naming an independent prosecutor to at least INVESTIGATE potential crimes. THIS will send a clear message to the many burrowed Bush loyalists, the new crew of young Gingrich Republicans working their ways up the ranks and future Karl Rovian politicians ensconced in our Government that future crimes will prosecuted to the FULL extent of the law without exception. Even the President of the United States must be made blindingly aware that ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL in the eyes of American law and that NO MAN IS ABOVE THE LAW! There is no other way to underline this but to investigate and prosecute! Waiting for foreign countries to clean up our former President’s crimes is unacceptable to me as a man who loves his Country! Right now America is responsible for Bush’s crimes. Unless we prosecute them it sends a message to the rest of the world that we as Americans approve of the attrocities that were commited in OUR name.
April 17th, 2009 at 8:23 amChapalody Says:
You are a brainwashed idiot. Torture has done NOTHING but damage Americas standing and put a blot on our honor. The ONLY CLAIM of any useful information we got from torture has been repudiated and proven to be false. We got better information BEFORE we started tortuting him. I wish cowards like you would stop damaging my good country and trying to destroy its very values because you such gutless wussies
April 17th, 2009 at 9:23 amTorture, according to the United Nations Convention Against Torture, is:
“ any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental
I don’t believe in Torture, but I would do anything and I mean anything to protect the people I love. “In the matter of life or death”
Before you can prosecute someone you must define waterboarding as torture.
At this point there is no legal document that defines that, so you couldn’t prosecute successfully if you wanted to-the government would be wasting time and money.
Let’s say for a minute that it is definitely torture, under the Geneva Convention the prisoners are not covered because they were not fighting under a flag, wearing any type of uniform or openly carrying arms.They could be classified as spies and executed, after we “torture them”
April 17th, 2009 at 9:56 amKevin you are wrong about everything in your post. WE prosecuted Japanese officers for waterboarding and said DIRECTLY that it was a warcrime in the Tokyo trials. Your take on the Geneva Convention if FLAT OUT WRONG. I know that is what the rightwing screechmonkeys keep saying but they are just full of it.
Geneva Convention IV, Article 4 provides protected status to persons “who find themselves . . . in the hands of a party to the conflict”, unless they fail to meet certain nationality criteria or are covered by the other Geneva Conventions. Detainees not protected by those other Conventions, and who do meet the nationality criteria for coverage under Geneva Convention IV do, indeed, ‘have a label in the law of war conventions’. That label is “civilian”, or “protected person” under Geneva Convention IV – even if they are definitely suspected of activity hostile to the security of the detaining State or of being “unlawful combatants”. Persons who do not meet the nationality criteria are covered by Article 75 of Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions. This article forms part of customary international law.
http://www.icrc.org:
So the question here is do you EVER know what you are talking about?
April 17th, 2009 at 10:05 amOh by the way Kev the UN convention againts torture statute says
any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, isintentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or athird person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a thirdperson has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating orcoercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of anykind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or withthe consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in anofficial capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arisingonlyfrom, inherentin or incidental to lawful sanctions.Importantly, this definition specifies that both physical and mental suffering can constitute torture,
http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:uxWYpTwtp3AJ:digital.library.unt.edu/govdocs/crs/permalink/meta-crs-8463:1+Un+Convention+against+torture+statute&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
So again do you EVER know what you are talking about?
April 17th, 2009 at 10:12 amEugene atrax robustus Debs Says:
Have you ever read them completely, because you fail to mention about not wearing a uniform, if they do not wear a uniform or fight for a flay and fight against us they are not “civilian”
April 17th, 2009 at 11:14 amEugene atrax robustus Debs Says:
any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental,
I think I typed the same thing!!!!!!
April 17th, 2009 at 11:16 amEugene atrax robustus Debs Says:
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Terrorist don’t do any of the following, therefore they are not covered under the GC- period!!!!!
The Japanese were prosecuted because they wore a Uniform, and fought for a specific country
Terrorist don’t play by those rules
below is from the GC
2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:
(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) That of carrying arms openly;
(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
April 17th, 2009 at 11:26 amEugene atrax robustus Debs Says:
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I thought I didn’t know what I was talking about!!!!!!
April 17th, 2009 at 12:09 pmkevin1 Says:
I HAVE read them and that is just ONE protected class. The above makes the point QUITE CLEARLY. It also says NO ONE is beyond the law. It is YOU that needs to read them completely instead of just citing ONE part.
April 17th, 2009 at 12:10 pmkevin1 Says:
First of all are you REALLY going to try to claim no mental of physical suffering is involved in waterboarding? Second DID you say the same thing because I missed THIS part
has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating orcoercing him or a third person,
April 17th, 2009 at 12:12 pmOOOPS missed the first part
punishing him for an act he or a thirdperson has committed or is suspected of having committed,
April 17th, 2009 at 12:13 pmGo to the Official website of the UN and show me in bold!!
April 17th, 2009 at 12:14 pmkevin1 Says:
First of all when did we even ACCUSE these people being held of being terrorists much less PROVE that criminal act in a court of law? Thats right we didnt you are just CALLING them terrorists to justify whatever you want to do with them. So at BEST you mean terrorist SUSPECTS but even THAT isnt true. Maher Arar was NEVER accused of terrroism and HE was tortured for ten months. You keep putting up who are POWS as if THAT were the ONLY class of protected persons. As I cited above IT IS NOT. I guess you think if you keep repeating your baseless assertion it will magically become true but it doesnt work that way. YOU calling them terrorists does NOT change the rule of law to mean we can now torture them.
April 17th, 2009 at 12:19 pmkevin1 Says:
I thought I didn’t know what I was talking about!!!!!!
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You thought right. You DONT know what you are talking about as I have shown. You MAY not be bright enough to understand the basic concepts here but what is CERTAIN is that you dont know what you are talking about
April 17th, 2009 at 12:20 pmPLease tell me Kevin you arent dumb enough to think that just because the GC defines who is a prisoner of war that means that we can at random pick up ANYONE we want who ISNT wearing a uniform and on the basis of an accusation alone do anything we want to them. That would just be sad
April 17th, 2009 at 12:23 pmkevin1 Says:
Give it up. That was from a report to congress about the CAT I cut and pasted the definition from the first page right after the table of contents right where it says DEFINITION OF TORTURE. If that isnt good enough for you I couldnt care less it will be good enough for anyone RATIONAL
April 17th, 2009 at 12:27 pmThis is from the UN-they use the word Severe
and no I don’t think it is severe,and it is not long lasting. The US government makes the CIA agents do it to themselves during training.
Torture, according to the United Nations Convention Against Torture, is:
April 17th, 2009 at 1:46 pm“ any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental
Eugene atrax robustus Debs Says:
——————————————————————————–
PLease tell me Kevin you arent dumb enough to think that just because the GC defines who is a prisoner of war that means that we can at random pick up ANYONE we want who ISNT wearing a uniform and on the basis of an accusation alone do anything we want to them. That would just be sad
They do it in Iraq and afganistan everyday!!
One thing I don’t get, why do you Libs start name calling when this don’t go you way- it makes you Unintelligent.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:31 pmBush and his boys will never be prosecuted- ever.
There is no legal document that references that waterboarding as illegal, either right or wrong morally or ethically -it doesn’t matter!!!
In the end, I will be right
April 17th, 2009 at 2:45 pmkevin1 Says:
My GOD you are stupid. Do you just stop reading once you get what you want that is the BEGGINING OF IT. It goes on from there. Learn to READ for goodness sake
April 17th, 2009 at 5:28 pmkevin1 Says:
They do it in Iraq and afganistan everyday!!
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Yeah that is what makes them uncivilized. What is your point that we need to join the evil doers club?
One thing I don’t get, why do you Libs start name calling when this don’t go you way- it makes you Unintelligent.
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Think what you want. It would take a lobotomy for me to get anywhere near as stupid as you. You may not be bright enough to notice but the facts show this argument IS going my way. That feeling on your back is me mopping the floor with you. Repeating your original assertion adds no force to it. Only braindead rightwingers think if they repeat something often enough it magically becomes true.
April 17th, 2009 at 5:31 pmKevin you are clearly braindead. WE prosecuted Japanese for doing it and sent them to prison for 15 years. It has been torture SINCE THE SPANISH INQUISITIONS FOOL. Torture is illegal. It was never even an argument a decent person would have until the Bush administration lowered the decency of values in the US to the point THEY disputed it. No one with two braincells to rub together NOT protecting the Bush administration denies it is torture. If it wasnt WHY did we call it torture and prosecute both the Japanese AND AMERICAN citizens for it. During Vietnam a US Soldier was courtmartialed for just ALLOWING the South Vietnamese to waterboard someone in his presence we put a sherrif in PRISON for waterboarding a suspect. Again what you show mostly is that you just flat dont know what you are talking about. If NOTHING says it is illegal why was Sherrif James Parker sentence to TEN YEARS IN PRISON FOR DOING IT?
You said there are no lasting effects and yet according to testimony those it was inflicted on have said rain gave them panic attacks for YEARS. You really ought to try to at least have some dim idea what you are talking about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding
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