Obama’s Immunity For CIA Agents Still Leaves Prosecutions Of Senior Bushies On The Table
Obama’s Immunity For CIA Agents Still Leaves Prosecutions Of Senior Bushies On The Table
Yesterday, as he released four Bush-era legal memos authorizing the torture of terrorist suspects, President Obama made it clear he would not support any prosecutions of low-level interrogators who actually carried out Bush’s policies. “[I]t is our intention to assure those who carried out their duties relying in good faith upon legal advice from the Department of Justice that they will not be subject to prosecution.”
Obama also added, “This is a time for reflection, not retribution,” and said “nothing will be gained by spending our time and energy laying blame for the past.” Some progressive commentators were outraged; Keith Olbermann pleaded, “Prosecute, Mr. President.” CBS’s Andrew Cohen interpreted this to mean Obama would not support any prosecutions for torture:
One by one, the hammer blows fell upon civil libertarians and millions of other Americans who believe that the people who legally sanctioned and then implemented torturous “enhanced interrogation tactics” should have had to defend their conduct in our courts of law. One by one, those enthusiastic supporters of the Obama administration’s legal values and policies realized that they had just lost a battle (been wiped out, in fact) that they had every reason to believe they would win. There will be no torture trials. Period.
However, Obama’s statement was carefully worded to include only “those who carried out their duties relying in good faith upon legal advice” — not the Bush officials who actually gave out that advice. ACLU lead counsel Jameel Jaffer told Glenn Greenwald that Obama did not shut the door to all prosecutions:
I think it’s a mistake to read the grant of immunity too broadly. I don’t think that President Obama’s statement should be taken as a sign that there’s no chance that the architects of torture program will be prosecuted. And even with respect to the interrogators, it’s only the interrogators who relied “in good faith” on legal advice who are protected.
Indeed, Marc Ambinder reported yesterday that “senior administration officials have made it clear” to him that the immunity would not apply to those officials who “who did NOT act in good faith, or who did not act according to the guidelines spelled out by the OLC.” Obama himself seemed to indicate that some sort of investigations have already begun, telling CNN en Espanol, “I think that we are moving a process forward here in the United States to understand what happened.”
Greenwald notes that the door for investigations and prosecutions is still open, but it will take enormous pressure from the American public to push Obama through. “[T]he burden is on us to demand that something be done,” he writes.
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I do agree that military taking orders or be jailed themselves should not suffer the same punishment as the ones writting the memos and the ones asking for the memos. That would be Bybee, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeldt. There will never be jail for those but how about humiliation and loss of pension.
April 17th, 2009 at 1:45 pmThe world is watching. Words don’t mean crap now. Only action.
April 17th, 2009 at 1:48 pmIs The President doing this because he knows it is the best way to get a job after all the disappointed voters do not show up in 2010 or 2012 and he is unemployed?
Does it leave open the possibility to charge him and his staff for being complicit and approving torture after the fact?
How does this fit into the continuing torture of the middle class?
April 17th, 2009 at 1:52 pmIf President Obama wants to get reelected he had better see that the architects of these crimes are tried.
April 17th, 2009 at 1:52 pmI’m having trouble trying to figure out just who or what might or might not be prosecuted from all of the above. Looks like a buncha gobbledegook to me.
But I do know this: ten-year-olds know that torture is against the law. If you can pass a CIA entrance exam, then you have to know that torture is against the law.
In fact, given the choice between the following two propositions…
1) If you torture somebody you’ll probably end up in jail.
2) The OLC subunit of the DoJ can provide advisory memos which can have the effect of legalizing certain behaviors in certain circumstances.
I’d say that any given person is vastly more likely to know #1 than #2. So if I was standing there with such a memo in my hand and the option of torturing someone, assuming I had limited knowledge of the law, I’d definitely have to go by #1. If we assume that I know enough about the law to think that #2 might get me out of it, then I definitely would have to have enough legal knowledge to know that torture is illegal in the first place.
So either way…
April 17th, 2009 at 1:53 pmThis is right on, I believe. If Obama has shown nothing else in the short time he has been in office it is that he carefully and thoroughly considers every option at his disposal and tries to make a reasoned judgement. It is too soon to tell how this will play out, but it’s a bit disheartening to hear people decry his every move because it’s not in sync with their own timetable.
I’m as anxious as anyone to see the whole Shrub cabal hung, literally, but sniping and griping before this whole thing plays out is, in my opinion, premature. Going through legal channels with careful deliberation and patience is more effective than the bluster, haste and bravado that we’ve been accustomed to in the last eight years.
Legal niceties may not give instant gratification, but I think they will yield the result we all yearn for in the end.
April 17th, 2009 at 1:55 pmDoodlebug Shayne Says:
If President Obama wants to get reelected he had better see that the architects of these crimes are tried.
Voting Republican in 2012, are you…?
*snicker*
April 17th, 2009 at 1:56 pmI guess I am at a loss for why “the burden is on us (the public) to demand that something be done.” Isn’t already written black-letter law reason enough for the President and AG to investigate? In accordance with the written laws, just knowing that crimes were comitted requires Obama and the AG to investigate, or they themselves would be committing a crime. But why should we let a little thing like the rule of law interfere when it seems obvious that the responsibility lies with Joe Average Citizen to bring domestic war criminals to justice.
April 17th, 2009 at 1:56 pmDO IT!
April 17th, 2009 at 1:56 pmGreenwald knocks it out of the park. Again.
Just as with telecom immunity, there is absolutely no excuse for US torture policies or the hesitation to prosecute them. If Obama does not press for justice, he is complicit.
April 17th, 2009 at 1:57 pmtrevinia – lets see, you had 8 years of lying, thieving, corrupt beyond all description from bush/cheney crowd and you believe President Obama can immediately right the wrong of 8 years in even 4 years ? Disapponted I don’t think so, this President has done more in 3 months for the middleclass than bush even considered doing or would even want to do.
bush allowed his friends to bankrupt yours and my America, without a kiss afterward.
April 17th, 2009 at 1:57 pmThose who ordered torture and those who tried to make it “legal” need to be prosecuted.
April 17th, 2009 at 1:59 pmtrevinla Says: Hunh???
This is a way that you get the lower level functionaries to be able to come forward, without fear of prosecution, and say (under oath, of course) that I tortured the prisoner under the orders of so-and-so. You then indict so-and-so who then agrees to turn state’s evidence rather than face the full penalty of the law in exchange for revealing the name of the person who gave him the order to have the prisoner’s tortured. Hopefully, you find your way to the ultimate mastermind of this scheme… and then, you prosecute… OR, you turn the evidence over to the World Court and let them prosecute.
April 17th, 2009 at 1:59 pm“People” are saying that Obama wants US to make him do it – Well we did! We voted him in! We gave him the Job! What I told my boss every morning that he has to make me do my Job? I’m just going to stand here until someone forces me to make my widget!
April 17th, 2009 at 1:59 pmI supported Obama afer my man, the unfortunately nasty Edwards, dropped out. I did not do it blindly and have been saying since day one that progressives needed to work to get him in, i.e., get the wackos bush and cheney and company out, and then monitor closely because one of these day, his feet would need to be held to the fire. I still believe in him for the most part but we need to keep those who are tasting power honest. We cannot pigeon-hole him like the wingnuts want to do but he needs to make sure the Constitution and criminal laws stand for something and that they are equally applied. Progressives must nudge him in that direction in his situation. It is obvious that the door is open to go after the likes of Gonzales, for example.
April 17th, 2009 at 1:59 pmI am disappointed at the lack clarity with respect to whether or not this administration will follow through on investigating and, if indicated, prosecuting those who authorized torture and other crimes against the Constitution.
Political tap dance or not, it is time to make it clear that the United States is a nation of laws and that no one is above those laws.
Come on, Mr. President, this is not the change you promised!
PEACE
April 17th, 2009 at 2:00 pmobama has been given the benefit of doubt on several issues and he’s repeatedily come up short. He’s going to be judged on his actions, and so far his actions are pretty much the same as bush’s. I won’t vote republican, but if he lets this slide I will not be voting for obama.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:01 pmTexaslady, you sound like a defeatist! You have been in Texas to long, with all those Texas RepubliCon crooks. As for Elbruce, you don’t have to vote for either the RepubliCons or the Party of DINOS. If Obama is complicit to the crimes of Cheney and Bush, then he should go too.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:06 pm[I]t is our intention to assure
It is all in the semantics. President Obama did not come out and say “This administration will not”. Remember, the man is a Constitutional lawyer and what he says is couched in how he says it. I don’t think he is covering his butt as much as he is leaving a door open.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:08 pmthis link has an interesting quote from the former CIA director backing up the opinion that prosecution isn’t needed. http://www.newsy.com/videos/interrogating_cia_interrogators/ In a way I agree with him because the interrogators were just following orders, something that they were trained to do without asking questions.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:08 pmSo, where were all you when bush was taking us to war with lies ? Where were all of you with 10 Billion being spent every month by bush ? But now you want President Obama to immediately right the wrongs in the first 3 months ? As for doing his job, I think he has more jobs to oversee than one of making widgets. Sure funny the voices are loudest now and totally quiet for 8 years.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:09 pmActing in ‘good faith’ would be refusing to torture or associated with the torture that occured through resignation or some other protest. The way that phrase is being used here seems more of a catch-all excuse for doing what one should know is wrong. All of the players were acting in faith that they wouldn’t be held accountable even though they realized it was wrong–and against the law.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:09 pmAgain, I say where were your loud voices condeming bush and his friends when they electricuted our soldiers with faulty wiring in the showers, when deregulation was done by Phil Gramm ? Pretty quiet weren’t you ? Let Obama do it his way and scream later when and if it doesn’t get done.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:10 pmOr if you can do it better, run for President.
raynman
With fear of Prosecution, what reason do people have to come forward. They may come forward to make a deal if they thought they would be able to get better treatment that way but if they know there are no charges then why bother coming forward…
texaslady
Don’t get me wrong – BUSH and his people are some of the worst criminals to ever walk this planet but just because Obama is better, doesn’t mean is is good. He HAS done more in this little time than I thought he could he has also done more Wrong in that time than I thought her would during his whole tenure. He has kept the same Economic Ad visors that brought down that leg of this country, he is following the same “ignore the peoples rights” theory that brought down that leg of the country, he is following the same “more troops to fix the problem” theory in Afghanistan that has brought down every previous occupier, and he continues to fee the hyper kids (the rich) more candy (money & power) & hopes they will calm down…
This is not what he was hired to do
April 17th, 2009 at 2:12 pmsorry raynman – I meant
April 17th, 2009 at 2:15 pmWith OUT fear of Prosecution…
We need to contact our members of Congress and DEMAND that they prosecute these guys that wrote the memo and the ones that ordered it in the first place. This is against he law in the United States and against international law. Believe me I hate terrorists and all they stand for and I’d rather see them dead than tortured. But once we capture them we have to follow our laws. I’ve not saying we should treat them nice at all. I believe there are approve techniques that the Israelis use that work. Even the Israelis say that torture doesn’t work. We didn’t torture Sadam and he told us everything we wante to know, but a Agent simply visiting him and just talking to him. PLEASE CONTACT CONGRESS! It’s the only way these criminals will ever be prosecuted. They would hesitate to prosecutor one of us if we did the smallest thing.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:15 pmI’m sick over this madness…Agree with Lady Shayne & Spencers mom among other’s….President Obama should be concerned at how quickly he will loose support if he continues to aid and abet the bush criminal’s..Our country is in an uproar with millions of unemployed, bank bail outs, war’s,,,,,One item can be the tipping point for his own impeachment or a revolution…..Just saying..P.B. & j.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:17 pmThe only fair solution is to name a Special Prosecutor and let him or her decide whether our laws were broken. Then the decision will be based on law not politics. You don’t hear republicans calling for a Special Prosecutor because they know that these guys like Addington, Chaney, Rumsfeld, Yu and the other War Criminals will be brought to justice.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:17 pmtexaslady Says:
Again, I say ….
Don’t mess with Texas.
;)
April 17th, 2009 at 2:18 pmSo you expect President Obama to go in and within 3 months clean house of those incestuous, powerholders who can stonewall him at every turn. Well he doesn’t have the power to fire them all. You can’t turn a ship in 3 months, it takes time. It just continues to shock me that so much is demanded of Obama while no outrage over crooked elections, 4400 soldiers killed, our country bankrupt. Who among you could do a better job in 3 months.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:19 pmCan one imagine an enlisted military person disobeying a direct order especially in time of war? It would be either the brig or an ‘accident’ killing.
Enlisted persons are brainwashed from the beginning to obey direct orders with no questions asked.
The ones responsible for the orders are responsible … end of story.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:21 pmExcuse me but there has not been an investigation yet. You do not penalize people, even war criminals and republicans, without investigating and building a case. It amazes me that the crackpots on this site are jumping to conclusions so prematurely. Please let this play out before you give your final verdict.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:27 pmPlease pressure CONGRESS, not OBAMA!
We finally finally finally have a progressive prez.
Congress can issue the subpoenas and investigations.
THEY, after all, questioned and APPROVED many of this administration appointees. AND Congress APPROVED the entire IRAQ operation.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:28 pmDon’t ever think that Cheney and his gang did not cover their tracks as much as possible. Remember that Cheney had been dreaming of this stuff since Watergate.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:31 pmWell as one of the “crackpots” on this site, I agree we need an independent prosecutor, but when you have the signatures of the ones issuing the memos for torture, it shouldn’t be that hard to follow the trail to those requesting the memos. The bush lawyers are pretty brave torturing others, lets see how brave they are when they are faced with imprisonment.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:38 pmObama’s Immunity For CIA Agents Still Leaves Prosecutions Of Senior Bushies On The Table
SSSssssshhhhhhhhh! … don’t TELL ‘em…!
April 17th, 2009 at 2:39 pmMy general feeling is that if I would like to see them held accountable, which I would, looking at this as if it provides the possibility of a real investigation is kind of grasping at straws.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:39 pmRegardless, count me as a member of the American public that would like to provide a little enormous pressure, if that’s what is really required.
“I was only following memos” is no excuse.
(Nice meme, huh?)
April 17th, 2009 at 2:40 pmi was joking of course… kinda…
…
C&L’s AOL Hot Seat Poll: How serious is the problem of radical right-wing extremism in the US?
Take the poll if you can, because we all know that FOX news monitors these Hot Seats all the time.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:41 pmWord on the mean streets of Highland Park (Dallas, TX) is that Cheney has been house shopping (he once lived there).
I smell the need for Texas’ secession and formation of a new government without extradition to the U.S.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:43 pmCongress can issue the subpoenas and investigations.
THEY, after all, questioned and APPROVED many of this administration appointees. AND Congress APPROVED the entire IRAQ operation.
But would congress?
I think it has become apparent the influence corporate lobbyists, lobbyists including the MIC which includes Blackwater, have over congress.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:45 pmif we ignore this where do we stop? We allowed the gov’t to change the tax code that kept spending close to income, now we are broke. We allowed the Gov’t to ignore the Nixon spying and now they spy on us. We ignored the fact that the Gov’t gave weapons to the Contra Rebels – Terrorist – and now the Terrorists attack our nation. We ignore the Gov’t torturing our “Enemy” and soon they will torture us.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:46 pmI think that an issue that hasn’t come up yet, but is very likely relevant is that there were undercurrents of “revolt” from within “the community” when it started looking like Obama was likely to be our next president.
This “promise” of not prosecuting those “just following orders” is probably a deal worked out to stave off such a “revolt” by these individuals who would otherwise be useful to the Administration. If there begins (or continues?) to be certain actions by these “burrowed” employees, then I think we’ll start to see some prosecutions.
This may or may not have anything to do w/ the actual situation or Obama’s motivations, but it’s something I’ve been chewing on for a while… and I’m not necessarily justifying it, but it does seem like a practical move for Obama, which does seem to be his style.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:47 pmBy Obama’s official statement regarding the release of these memos, I really doubt there will be a prosecution of anyone for anything re: this issue.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:48 pmI have a problem with this quote:
Obama also added, “This is a time for reflection, not retribution,” and said “nothing will be gained by spending our time and energy laying blame for the past.”
It’s justice not retribution. Reclaiming our soul will be gained by prosecution.
The same nonsense was spouted by Bush in the wake of the 9/11 Commission and our nation is none the wiser or better today.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:48 pmI’m also guessing that if they really wanted to chase this down quickly that they would right away bring charges against those who committed the torture so they could turn around and provide them immunity for their testimony as prosecution witnesses.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:49 pmI’m no Attorney or Law Professor but isn’t that the way they usually do that ?
I think what you are all missing is the unwillingness of President Obama to expend the political capital it would require to launch these investigations. I think you are also missing the high likelihood that senior House and Senate Democrats knew what was going on and agreed to let it go on. They don’t want this investigation and Obama doesn’t want the distraction, ergo it isn’t going anywhere.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:50 pm#34 – my point exactly ! There is a whole lot of representatives, our employees, that need to get a backbone.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:51 pmSure the door is open, but who cares until there are some actual prosecutions.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:52 pm#48. If there are senior congressmen and women who knew about this, they should be investigated also. We are about the law, not party.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:53 pmIt may not go anywhere today, however, give the man some time to work the backrooms and get some political power. Our reps are constantly counting the dollars for re election and only vote what is popular. Just like Obama saying, the assault weapon ban wouldn’t get passed just now. It is just realistic knowing what can and cannot be done.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:58 pmI heard somebody say this morning that the last president who crossed the CIA was JFK and look what that got him and that President Obama was given that message. Wasn’t GHW Bush a big player at the CIA at that time? It’s the same people running the big show now.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:58 pmNO, what it shows is that you’ll teabag any criminals as long as they’re Republicans. STFU.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:59 pmwhew! i’m all for hangin’em all by the balls, but,
can’t we concentrate on the the immediate problems of
finance and health care for NOW…
as a caller to ed shultz said yesterday – the man can’t do
what needs done from a box.
think about it.
April 17th, 2009 at 3:00 pmwatchdog Says: This proves that liberals strictly act out emotionally before any of the facts are known about what actually took place and what laws actually say.
With all due respect, blow it out your ass.
A brain dead aardvark would know what the law says and there is entirely too much evidence that laws have been violated.
April 17th, 2009 at 3:01 pmwatchdog didn’t get the memo(s).
April 17th, 2009 at 3:01 pmThis proves you are still as dumb as ever…
April 17th, 2009 at 3:02 pmGlad that these guys aren’t out of the frying pan yet; they deserve to get what’s coming to them.
We need to become a nation that values dialogue and diplomacy again, or we’re damning ourselves. If we open up and talk with other nations and even *gasp* help them, extremism will diminish. Honestly, the best way to eliminate terrorism is to downsize poverty. If people are happy with their lives, devoid of want and scarcity, then they’re less likely to feel oppressed, and the vocal minority that utilizes violent tactics will fall out of favor.
The Borgen Project (www.borgenproject.org) has some interesting insight into addressing the issues of global poverty, something we can remedy easily and sustainably.
Some interesting figures to ponder:
April 17th, 2009 at 3:02 pm$30 billion USD: The annual shortfall to end global poverty.
$550 billion USD: The annual US defense budget.
I know, thousands of “Water Boarding Parties” across the nation, and we can have a Cable Station promote them…
….like Fox….oh, forgot, they are ReichWing Propaganda…
…maybe then, MSNBC…
…oh, wait, the ReichWingers will label them Anti-american…
…oh, forget it…it was only brown people anyway.
April 17th, 2009 at 3:04 pmpastcaring Says:
By Obama’s official statement regarding the release of these memos, I really doubt there will be a prosecution of anyone for anything re: this issue.
see, i got just the opposite.
.
shayne – i’ve heard that… chilling…
April 17th, 2009 at 3:09 pmcan’t imagine it hasn’t crossed HIS mind a long time ago…
…
looks like the Spanish case against the Bush 6 is still going forward:
“MADRID, Spain (CNN) — A Spanish judge moved Friday to keep alive an investigation into six former Bush administration officials for alleged torture of prisoners at the U.S. detention camp for terrorism suspects at Guantanamo Bay. Cuba.”
http://cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com/2009/04/17/judge-wants-to-keep-gitmo-case-alive/
April 17th, 2009 at 3:10 pmLaws are also written because of the loop holes in the system. To come back after the fact and find fault with the Bush administration on the detention and interrogation methods questions whether or not Bush did the right thing, but which is more important. Pleasing the critics against any war and detention or protecting this country. When you have an enemy who makes up the rules as they go along and a country fighting to keep up with a new wave of terrorist tactics then the rules must be adjusted to keep pace with the killings and kidnappings. After being attacked time and information aren’t on you side. Neither will come to you. You have to go out with the time you have and get the information which will save lives. When a country goes to sleep at night wondering whether or not tomorrow will be the day for another attack, no one is questioning the rule of law then are they. The people wants to be protected at any cost. Let little Johnny get killed at a mall or while eating pizza and mom will say you didn’t do enough to protect us. No one ever looks at the other side because of the safety and protection Bush provided for eight years. It’s easy now to review what Bush did and what Bush shouldn’t have done. You think mom cares one bit about politics when it comes to the life of little Johnny. Eight years of not being attacked vindicates Bush on any questions about his detention and interrogation methods. No one says you can’t question the methods of the Bush administration, “but even as we usher in a new period of openness and transparency, many national security decisions must by necessity be made in a manner that protects our ability to gather intelligence, investigate threats and execute wars.” Those are Holder’s words. We reserve the right to do exactly what Bush did in order to protect this country. Speaking about the rule of law is one thing. Double talk is another. The visions this administration has about small scale battles and a safer world because of the election of President Obama has not only weakened us, but this administration has reversed the very polices that may have to be debated to be enacted when time and information is not on our side.
April 17th, 2009 at 3:11 pm.
Rule of Law?
Who needs the Rule of Law…
… When we have a president to decide for us.
.
April 17th, 2009 at 3:12 pmWhere would an investigation go, many, many Dems and repubs had their fingers in the whole mess, and you better believe when one goes down he will take another.
April 17th, 2009 at 3:14 pm.
Dear watchdog,
But it’s not acting out emotionally when the G(no)P does it, NO?
… “Bring ‘em on!” ~ George W. Bush
… “I hope he(sic) fails!” ~ (R)ush Limbaugh
.
April 17th, 2009 at 3:16 pmYou know I am sick of hearing 8 years without an attack, how about the first one, with even a memo alerting the idiot president they were coming and he let it go without warning Americans ? He DID NOT keep America safe. Then he used our family members to clean up after his dad.
April 17th, 2009 at 3:17 pm#66 texaslady,
Thus we have…
… Absolute corruption.
.
April 17th, 2009 at 3:17 pmHere’s more, Wayne:
Reuters adds,
A Spanish judge considering possible criminal action against six former Bush administration officials for torture at the U.S. prison at Guantanamo Bay defied pressure to drop the case on Friday.
But Judge Baltasar Garzon, internationally known for trying to extradite former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet, accepted that he might not personally take charge of any eventual criminal investigation into officials including former U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales.
The Reuters report continues, “In a ruling on Friday, Garzon ignored this advice but also avoided a direct confrontation with the attorney general’s office by submitting the case to a lottery system which will now assign it at random to one of the six high court judges.”
“Let it be assigned to the corresponding court,” Garzon’s ruling stated.
“The judge who gets the case will now have to decide whether to go ahead of it,” the Reuters article continues. “Under the system, Garzon will have a one in six chance of getting the case back.”
So the senior Bushies are now playing collective Russian Roulette, and the other chambers might not be empty.
April 17th, 2009 at 3:18 pmChapalody, step away from the Kool-Aid.
April 17th, 2009 at 3:18 pmChapalody says obvious lies-
“because of the safety and protection Bush provided for eight years”
BS…9/11 was on his watch, he was told of it and let it happen, fool…
…the anthrax was OUR OWN military grade anthrax…more than likely ordered up by Cheney to attack critics of the Patriot Act.
Fcuk the Republicans
April 17th, 2009 at 3:21 pmGreenwald notes that the door for investigations and prosecutions is still open, but it will take enormous pressure from the American public to push Obama through. “[T]he burden is on us to demand that something be done,” he writes.
Now here is a grassroots movement. Time to hit the streets, folks.
April 17th, 2009 at 3:23 pmhanshiro the antlion @ 10.
Excellent post!
April 17th, 2009 at 3:23 pmIf I may…
I think we need to relax and be patient about this. Remember, President Obama inherited quite a friggin’ mess. In fact, a mess not experienced for about 70+ years. A $hit-sandwich, if you will, created by Dubya and his “occupation”, his tax cuts, his deregulations, and his apathy towards the middle and lower class.
Unfortunately, our president has way too many portions on his plate to consume all at once.
Priority #1 is the economy. Like it or not, it needs to be dealt with ASAP, and will take years to turn around, not months.
Is the arrest and trials of Bush & Co. more pertinent than our country right now? I believe it is not.
Now the kicker. Does anyone here really think that how our judicial system is set up, especially favoring the rich, we can just handcuff em, try em, and persecute em quickly? Huh uh. Ain’t gonna happen. Not with the power and financial backing they have. And, as everyone knows, the richer, the more powerful, the longer a trial will be (Specter, anyone?).
If Obama’s team is truly going after them, they HAVE to be prepared and not attack half hazardly like Bush did with so many situations.
Folks. It’s going to take time. It probably won’t even be addressed seriously until we see our economy on the mend, and progressing steadily.
April 17th, 2009 at 3:25 pmI know, it sucks. Believe me, I want a fair trial for these criminals just like most. But more importantly, I want our nation back where jobs were available, that every family would have a decent meal, where every child would have a chance at education!
persecute, prosecute.
One of these days I’ll get them right.
Geez flippin’ Louise
April 17th, 2009 at 3:25 pm.
Dear Chapalody,
So by your logic…
… Let’s not review my past murders because we’re moving on, YES?
Of course it’s not war crimes when we don’t look back at them, YES?
And when the President of the USA orders war crimes to be committed, well…
… See no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil, NO?
.
April 17th, 2009 at 3:25 pmThanks for pointing me to that. I voted No. I don’t have paranoid delusions about the “threat of them radical right wangers.”
Ao anyway, why the hell would Obama give anyone immunity for torture?
April 17th, 2009 at 3:32 pm“If you don’t speak out now when it matters, when would it matter for you to speak out?”
Sorry DRx, but I think America is better and stronger than that. Ok, maybe not pursue it right now but let it be known it is coming. America can understand priorities and fixing the economy is on top but don’t take away the law. Bush already did that and America wants it back.
April 17th, 2009 at 3:32 pmCrapalody Says:
Laws are also written because of the loop holes in the system. To come back after the fact and find fault with the Bush administration on the detention and interrogation methods questions whether or not Bush did the right thing, but which is more important.
I stopped right there. No need to read the rest of your uninformed drivel. We are not finding “fault” with the “detention and interrogation methods” of Bush, we are wanting eventual justice for ILLEGALLY TORTURING!
April 17th, 2009 at 3:33 pmGot that?
We signed the Geneva Convention that strictly forbade such action against a fellow human being.
Why is that so friggin’ hard to understand???
Hey, what is Phil Jackson doing testifying before Congress? Shouldn’t he be getting the Lakers ready for the playoffs?
April 17th, 2009 at 3:33 pmDRx(re: response to crapola),
Of course it’s not child endangerment when it’s your child you leave trapped in a parked car in the middle of the summer heat, yes?
Because it’s that kind of mentality we’re dealing with…
… The mind of the exceptionalist.
.
April 17th, 2009 at 3:42 pmGive the grunts immunity so that they can testify against their higher ups. That is one possibility.
April 17th, 2009 at 3:44 pm.
#10 Hanshiro,
You mean like this?
http://equalbeings.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/bush-obama-s.jpg
.
April 17th, 2009 at 3:47 pmHearing Keith Olbermann read portions of those torture memos last night made me sick to my stomach.
I am so very deeply ashamed that these awful things were done to my fellow human beings in MY NAME.
Hanshiro, I copied a portion of your excellent post and sent it in an email to President Obama via whitehouse.gov. Thank you so much for posting it.
~A
April 17th, 2009 at 3:57 pmNow hold on people. I respect your opinions but I think Obama should be given time to investigate what really happened. I’d rather see Obama, and all parties involved with the investigation, get their facts straight to insure there are NO loopholes for Bush & Cheney to slip through. Because President Obama specifically stated who would not be prosecuted, I believe Bush & Cheney are in shyte load of trouble and that charges are going to be brought against them. They’ve probably got nearly 7 years of BS to wade through – 3 months is hardly enough time.
April 17th, 2009 at 3:59 pmNewsjunkie Says:
They were just following orders
That defense didnt work out too well at Nuremeberg as hanshiro my antlion friend so ably pointed out.
April 17th, 2009 at 4:07 pmOk, here’s the scenario. You are a long term employee of the CIA. It has been your career for 20 years. You have a wife and kids who are dependent on your income and your health care benefits.
Your boss tells you that the Justice Department has determined that certain interrogation techniques are legal and that they will be used on the “enemy combatants” forth with. You are told that you will be the one to interrogate these prisoners using the techniques that were proscribed by your superiors as having been deemed legal. You are a loyal CIA agent and loyal to your country. You don’t think that your superiors would have you doing something that was illegal.
What they are asking you to do is repugnant to you, but what choices do you have? You can quit and give up a 20 year career and your health benefits and probably end up blacklisted and find it hard to find other employment, or you can do what you are ordered to do. Now, if it was me, I would quit because I don’t think I could live with the knowledge that I tortured someone. But many CIA officers are gung ho conservative types who believe in their government, so they did what they were told.
Do you really think these people should be prosecuted for doing what they were told to do by their superior, after having been reassured that it was legal?
I agree with President Obama that these people should not be prosecuted. But, if he doesn’t go after those who manipulated the system to try to make torture seem legal and then ordered it’s implementation, I will be sorely disappointed in him.
April 17th, 2009 at 4:08 pmI also agree with what another poster said about how giving these people immunity from prosecution, for having followed orders, they will then have people who can testify against their superiors if and when they are charged with crimes.
April 17th, 2009 at 4:09 pmtexaslady Says:
So you expect President Obama to go in and within 3 months clean house of those incestuous, powerholders who can stonewall him at every turn. Well he doesn’t have the power to fire them all. You can’t turn a ship in 3 months, it takes time. It just continues to shock me that so much is demanded of Obama while no outrage over crooked elections, 4400 soldiers killed, our country bankrupt. Who among you could do a better job in 3 months.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
______________
The Federal Government is fully capable of multitasking. I do believe that the Obama administration can simultaneously focus on the economy while allowing a special prosecutor to investigate these high crimes by the Bush Administration.
Time is, unfortunately, not a luxury Obama can afford. Since many of the torture orders were given in late 2001 and early 2002, the 7-year statute of limitations will be running out very quickly. Prosecutions need to start now, or they may not be able to proceed later.
April 17th, 2009 at 4:11 pmDRxJapanese Beetle Says:
Folks. It’s going to take time. It probably won’t even be addressed seriously until we see our economy on the mend, and progressing steadily.
I know, it sucks. Believe me, I want a fair trial for these criminals just like most. But more importantly, I want our nation back where jobs were available, that every family would have a decent meal, where every child would have a chance at education!
Wow, finally a little sanity here. I agree wholeheartedly.
April 17th, 2009 at 4:12 pmKeltoi Says:
I am not missing it I just dont LIKE IT. Justice and morality demand that justice be done though the heavens fall.
April 17th, 2009 at 4:13 pmBilbo Hussein Baggins Says:
But many CIA officers are gung ho conservative types who believe in their government, so they did what they were told.
Do you really think these people should be prosecuted for doing what they were told to do by their superior, after having been reassured that it was legal?
April 17th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
____________
Absolutely.
April 17th, 2009 at 4:14 pmchiroptera toasterhead Says:
The Federal Government is fully capable of multitasking. I do believe that the Obama administration can simultaneously focus on the economy while allowing a special prosecutor to investigate these high crimes by the Bush Administration.
And how do you know that they are not investigating now? What do you think would happen to any legislation President Obama needs to pass if he declares war on the GOP by announcing that he is going after the Bush Crime Family. If you think it’s bad now, it will be 10 times worse if he were to do that.
I truly believe that they are working quietly, behind the scenes, gathering evidence. I think that they are releasing the damning memos to the public to gin up support for when they will be announcing that they will be prosecuting someone in the Bush Crime Family.
April 17th, 2009 at 4:15 pmDRxJapanese Beetle Says:
I know, it sucks. Believe me, I want a fair trial for these criminals just like most. But more importantly, I want our nation back where jobs were available, that every family would have a decent meal, where every child would have a chance at education!
April 17th, 2009 at 3:25 pm
_____________
Why does one have to wait for the other? What does the Department of Justice have to do with fixing the economy or creating jobs or improving education? There are plenty of other people in other government agencies who deal with those issues.
It is the job of the Department of Justice to investigate crimes. I see absolutely no reason why they need to wait on the departments of the Treasury and Agriculture and Transportation and Education and the Interior to put the economy back together before they can start an investigation.
This is a President who quipped during the campaign that a President needs to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time. Torture is a really important piece of gum.
April 17th, 2009 at 4:21 pmwatchdog Says:
YOUR POST shows you are a brainwashed moron regurgiating what Rush told you to think. The liberals here are more analytical and intellectual than you will ever be on the best day you ever lived. May you some day have at least a glimpse of reality
April 17th, 2009 at 4:23 pmBilbo Hussein Baggins Says:
I truly believe that they are working quietly, behind the scenes, gathering evidence. I think that they are releasing the damning memos to the public to gin up support for when they will be announcing that they will be prosecuting someone in the Bush Crime Family.
April 17th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
____________
That would be wonderful, and I, too, hope that that’s what is going on. If that’s what he’s doing, then consider my support ginned up. If he’s waiting for pressure from the left, a la FDR, then I’m doing that too.
April 17th, 2009 at 4:24 pmChapalody Says:
You are a coward. You are basically saying WWWWAAHAHHHHH please save me from the scary guys. I dont care if you trash all American values just save me WWWWAAAAHHHHHH. Cowboy up PUNK. Your gutlessness is an embarassment to all decent Americans. Do we do away with jury trials for particularly heinous serial killers? No the decency or lack thereof from the other guy has no bearing on WHAT IS RIGHT. Oh and keep mewling about how it protected us even though that cannot be shown even though we recently learned we got BETTER information from our legal and humane treatment than TORTURE. Then again you dont really care if you are safer. You are a coward you just want to FEEL safer you just want them to do ANYTHING that makes you FEEL better while you cower under your bed. We are not from timid men Edward R Murrow once said. Well our forefathers would be ashamed beyond measure that ANY Americans had become like YOU.
April 17th, 2009 at 4:32 pmBilbo Hussein Baggins Says:
Ok, here’s the scenario. You are a long term employee of the CIA. It has been your career for 20 years. You have a wife and kids who are dependent on your income and your health care benefits.
Your boss tells you that the Justice Department has determined that certain interrogation techniques are legal and that they will be used on the “enemy combatants” forth with. You are told that you will be the one to interrogate these prisoners using the techniques that were proscribed by your superiors as having been deemed legal. You are a loyal CIA agent and loyal to your country. You don’t think that your superiors would have you doing something that was illegal.
What they are asking you to do is repugnant to you, but what choices do you have? You can quit and give up a 20 year career and your health benefits and probably end up blacklisted and find it hard to find other employment, or you can do what you are ordered to do. Now, if it was me, I would quit because I don’t think I could live with the knowledge that I tortured someone. But many CIA officers are gung ho conservative types who believe in their government, so they did what they were told.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I dont buy it. Everyone has a sad story. I have heard it said that 90% of all evil in the world is dont to pay the mortgage. THIS is what they mean. The Nazis could have said the same thing as could virtually ANY governments henchmen including the Shah’s SAVAK in the 70’s. No that is far too easy an out. You do what is right. When you dont there need be consequences.
April 17th, 2009 at 4:40 pmBilbo Hussein Baggins Says:
Giving specific immunity for SPECIFIC testimony leading UP the foodchain is a different matter entirely. THAT is a well known concept that is actually OBVIATED if they are told upfron THEY wont be prosecuted. It is the immunity given with prosecution ON THE TABLE that leads to bigger fish not being told before you reach the police station you are NOT in danger of prosecution. I think it will in fact HINDER that very process. We will see.
April 17th, 2009 at 4:42 pmGive it time for popular awareness on this subject to build, criminal investigations are coming. It was announced that lower level people would not be prosecuted. There was no mention of what might happen to the higher ups, silence on that subject screams. Plus this Spanish thing coming up, they now have a boatload of new evidence. Obama will be “forced” to come out and allow an investigation, afterall we take care of our own criminals. He could characterize it as a matter of national pride, that we clean up after ourselves, we don’t need Spain to help.
April 17th, 2009 at 4:50 pmTorture is torture, and there is no getting around the issue.
April 17th, 2009 at 5:48 pmThe lower ranking officials’ days are numbered. They won’t be allowed to serve in any capacity. The senior officials’ are covered by practicality. We are involved in two military engagements and there is still the terrorist threat. You can’t very well strip your chain of command. The very fact that the no torture directive was issued will eliminate torture on Obama’s watch. Obama is the commander in chief and this choice is one of practicality not conscience. It is not time to beat up the messenger.
Cheney/Bush left office with a lot of nasty loose ends. The country was not given to them in this shape. If anything history will judge these two for the legacy they left behind.
The congress was also left with a legacy, and it is up to this body to act. It is appropriate and the public should insist.
In President Obama’s defense, there are no good choices in these matter only practial ones at this time.
Bilbo Hussein Baggins Says:
Do you really think these people should be prosecuted for doing what they were told to do by their superior, after having been reassured that it was legal?
Anyone with a brain knows that torture is illegal. Following an illegal order is still an illegal act.
So, yes, they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
Just like we prosecuted German soldiers for the War Crimes they did when “following orders”. Just like we have prosecuted our own soldiers when following illegal orders.
I find your excusing Obama in this issue very disturbing, Bilbo. It reminds me of the wingnuts defending the wrongs of the Bush administration.
Wrong is just wrong.
April 17th, 2009 at 6:14 pmBilbo Hussein Baggins Says:
Do you really think these people should be prosecuted for doing what they were told to do by their superior, after having been reassured that it was legal?
Yes, because there were some in the CIA who resigned specifically over the issue, and that would mean there was uncertainty within the agency about the lawfulness of these techniques. If I’m tasked with this duty, and learn that other CIA personnel have resigned because of it, I would be a fool to accept my boss’s assurances. There is a point where common sense must come into play, and these highly trained and whip-smart agents should have known from past precedent, and their own common sense, that what they were doing was both wrong and illegal, regardless of what a politically motivated higher-up might try to assert.
April 17th, 2009 at 6:48 pmI might add, the agents involved really have only one thing to go by in this instance, and that’s what had been allowed in the past. I’m sure these agents knew historical context regarding the US’s past prosecution of WW2 Japanese for engaging in the same acts. Had Geneva statutes or torture definitions ever been loosened since their original enactment?
Correct me if I’m wrong (and as we know, I frequently am), but wouldn’t these agents by this time be well versed in historical precedent regarding the practice, being that torture for them is a two way street, and they themselves might have to one day rely upon the very statutes they found so quaint and violated, for their own selfish interests?
Bilbo:
What they are asking you to do is repugnant to you, but what choices do you have? You can quit and give up a 20 year career and your health benefits and probably end up blacklisted and find it hard to find other employment, or you can do what you are ordered to do.
Have any of the agents who resigned feeling any career-damaging blowback? Or are they getting rich writing “inside baseball”, as it were ?
April 17th, 2009 at 7:09 pmHave any of the agents who resigned feeling any career-damaging blowback?
Hey, it’s Friday, and I am a barfly, after all.
Happy weekend, all.
April 17th, 2009 at 7:11 pmDon’t worry about the Statute of Limitations.
link
April 17th, 2009 at 8:44 pmIf we, average citizens, know damned good and well that torture is illegal, and a rudimentary knowledge of history tells us that we Americans prosecuted both Nazis and Japanese soldiers for torture – how on earth can an employee of the CI-freaking-A be excused for believing anyone who tells him that torture is legal??
No. There has to be a line that civilized people DO NOT CROSS.
April 17th, 2009 at 9:30 pmThe defense of obeying orders was disallowed at Nuremberg and remains impermissable for good reason; there will always be leaders who seek to extend and abuse their power, and without willing accomplices their nefarious plans would remain conspiracies and not acts.
All involved must be held accountable, and no reasonable, educated person could have believed that these acts were lawful.
According to the novel, unorthodox legal theories of Obama and Holder (nearly as perverse as those of Bybee, Yoo, Gonzales and Haynes), Lynndie England and Charles Graner are owed an immediate pardon.
April 17th, 2009 at 10:00 pmThe extensive torture program designed and approved by the Bush regime exemplifies the extend of their Machiavellian mentality. Their rationale: “We must take a collective crap on the Constitution in order to preserve it”.
I’m a little confused about the CIA and Bush Administration’s position on the release of these documents. If they are so certain that they did nothing wrong, then why did they work so hard to prevent disclosure? They should have the courage of their convictions and proudly declare: “We did it, we’re glad we did it, and we would do it all again.”
Unless, of course, they don’t actually believe that their actions were legal and ethical…
Certainly there was nothing in these documents that was not already generally known. The details of the graphic nature of the techniques, as well as the legal arguments to defend their use, was the primary revelation. The whole “jeopardizing national security” tact is a stale, overused argument left over from the Bush regime.
So should the torture program planners and participants be investigated and possibly prosecuted? Tough call.
In a perfect world, the answer would be a definitive YES.
However, given the state of the economy, Obama feels that he has bigger fish to fry at this time, and he doesn’t want to jeopardize his programs on the economic recovery by offending too many people in Congress with an investigation of the CIA and Bush Administration at this time. In addition, many of the key players are still active in the CIA, and pursuing an investigation of those who conducted the questionable interrogations would undoubtedly result in damaging the morale of this agency.
However, the door has been left open to investigate those responsible for creating the torture policies, and I have a feeling that these individuals may well be under the scrutiny of an independent investigator appointed by the Obama Administration once his economic programs have been approved by Congress.
April 17th, 2009 at 10:17 pmDoodlebug Shayne Says:
I heard somebody say this morning that the last president who crossed the CIA was JFK and look what that got him and that President Obama was given that message.
*****
This is the bottom line and the reason, I believe, he will not even attempt to prosecute any of the Bush Cabal. The CIA/Bushies won’t hesitate to knock him off.
April 18th, 2009 at 1:15 amOK Pat obviously senile dementia has set in. Time to see the nice young men that will need to take care of you soon.burun estetigi rent a car arac kiralama
April 18th, 2009 at 5:08 amsac ekimi
Obama will not pursue prosecutions. Even though he is the commander in chief, the executive of the United States of America, and the one person we have to rely on to execute the laws of our nation, he has made a decision not to save our nation from tyranny for whatever reason.
Instead of pulling a Cheney and going to a highly secured, undisclosed location while he orders federal authorities to apprehend those within the corporate oligarchy that threatened his and his family’s lives, he sees and bright future at a salary of 2 million per year, and appreciates the reassurance he likely recieved from the same people, that he should just enjoy the perks and prestige of his position for the next 4 to 8 years, and when this comes to an end, he will easily be able to afford property in Dubai, and can safely move his family there, while the Republicans complete what was rudely interrupted in 2008.
I could be wrong, but why would someone that campaigned so hard about transparency, accountability, ethics, reform and returning the the power to We the People change his tune so drastically once he gets the guaranteed pension and healthcare and life long Secret Service protection that US presidents get?
I think I will apply for a job with the Secret Service, and maybe I can get the Dubai assignment by the time the next Republican administration declares martial law and institutes a police state in our nation.
Remember, even if the Employee Free Choice Act would happen to pass, it would require the Executive to enforce it. We saw how much discrimination and labor laws, not to mention constitutional rights, were enforced under the Bush regime.
Obama is our last chance to save our democracy, but his actions suggest he is only thinking of himself.
April 18th, 2009 at 10:09 amWhat amazes me is that every blog site is not filled with outrage at these memos and all the “legal manuevering” that was going on during the Bush administration in an attempt to protect themselves from prosecution for authorizing torture techniques.
And even though the current Administration should be aggressively investigating and probably getting prepared to prosecute a myriad of individuals, I did take the time to compose a letter to President Obama explaining why he needs to ACT!
I am not a legal scholar, but after reading only parts of all the released information, it is clear that they started looking for ways around the Geneva Conventions as early as Nov 15, 2001. The ultimate blow was the Military Commission Act of 2006 – which in and of itself was an outrage….but then they pulled the ultimate Hat Trick and said that this Act was RETROACTIVE to 1997.
The individuals who wrote and approved all of these shenanigans may not end up in prison, but they certainly need to be visibly investigated and asked to defend their actions under the very bright lights of Public Scrutiny, otherwise we as a country have proved that we have NO Moral Authority to argue that others abuse Human Rights.
Just today, a joker, Michael L. Gross supported Bush et.al. using his philosphical stance that medical ethics in War cannot be the same as medical ethics in Peace Time….HUH?
April 18th, 2009 at 12:48 pmUnless we make abundantly clear that those who break our laws or who create laws that far exceed constitutional backing or international moral standards, we are doomed to repeat it, over and over again. History shows us this. I have been disappointed in President Obama not infrequently since he got elected and this is the latest example of “change you can believe in”? Not the kind of change I want. Sweeping what was ordered and done under the rug and saying ‘let’s move forward’ is simply unacceptable, just as NOT investigating and prosecuting many members of the Bush Administration for flagrant breaking of the laws of this country and international human rights conventions is unacceptable. But the Democrats, led by the spineless Nancy Pelosi (you remember her, don’t you? “Impeachment is off the table”.), will likely see to it that nothing is ever done to bring true accountability to those who hold the highest offices in our land.
April 18th, 2009 at 1:32 pm“Obama’s Immunity For CIA Agents…
April 18th, 2009 at 2:28 pmThere is no defense for following orders when it comes to Torture!
Lets not forget that the CIA has DESTROYED EVIDENCE TOO!
April 18th, 2009 at 2:36 pm…and lets not forget that CIA planes get to Colobia filled up with guns and fly back to the US filled up with Cocaine!
April 18th, 2009 at 2:41 pm…and lets not forget that the CIA has been using Torture, supporting terrorist paramilitary right-wing militias in Latin America, since the 60’s!!!!
April 18th, 2009 at 2:41 pmI think your still dreaming if u think Obama will be going after anyone on torture. He’s not leaving doors open, he’s quietly closing them with a smile!! Somthing stinks to high heaven as Obama has defended the Bush admin every step of the way so far!! ??
April 18th, 2009 at 2:47 pmPresident Obama.
You swore to protect and defend the Constitution.
War crimes were committed in the name of America.
Those responsible have NOT been held accountable.
Enough with the delaying tactics.
Ignoring crimes doesn’t make them go away.
No more excuses.
APPOINT A SPECIAL PROSECUTOR NOW!
April 18th, 2009 at 8:23 pm