Newly released OLC memo inadvertently reveals the name of a ‘ghost detainee.’
Newly released OLC memo inadvertently reveals the name of a ‘ghost detainee.’
In January, 2004, then-President Bush announced to the press that the U.S. had just captured a man named Hassan Ghul in Iraq, who Bush said “reported directly to Khalid Sheik Mohammad.” The Bush administration told the 9/11 Commission that Ghul was in “U.S. custody,” but his whereabouts were never revealed and the CIA “never acknowledged holding him.” ProPublica reports, however, that one of the recently released OLC memos reveals that Ghul was held and abused by the CIA:
Since then, he has been considered a missing, or ghost detainee. But in the heavily redacted OLC memo dated May 30, 2005, government censors appeared to have missed a single reference to his name and confinement during a lengthy description of the interrogation techniques used against him. The reference can be found at the bottom of Page 7 in the memo, where Ghul’s surname is spelled “Gul.”
According to the memo, Ghul was one of 28 CIA detainees at the time who had been subjected to the agency’s “enhanced interrogation techniques.” Specifically, the memo says he was subjected to “facial hold,” “facial slap,” “stress positions,” “sleep deprivation,” a technique called “walling,” in which a detainee’s shoulders are repeatedly smashed against a wall, and the “attention grasp,” in which the detainee is placed in a choke-hold and slapped.
So it appears we now have evidence Ghul was in a CIA prison. Where he is today is still a mystery.
The CIA declined to comment on Ghul to ProPublica’s Dafna Linzer.
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Well, the evidence that the Cheney/Bush admin was a bunch of lying torturers keeps piling up.
Why aren’t they being arrested and jailed? I guess they are lucky they didn’t do something REALLY bad, like possess an illegal plant. That seems to be the only thing that gets serious jail time these days.
April 17th, 2009 at 12:51 pmThe CIA is doin’ a helluva job! They were just “following orders” like Nazi goons, right?
April 17th, 2009 at 12:53 pmCan we please deal with these things in a law abiding fashion? Mr. President, get on the stick. I am tired of learning our government sucks this badly.
April 17th, 2009 at 12:54 pmIn Nazi Germany, this program was called Nacht und Nebel
(Night and Fog)
Doesn’t make you proud?
April 17th, 2009 at 12:54 pmThe Nazis had a much cooler name for their torture program. All our officials called ours was “enhanced interrogation techniques.”
April 17th, 2009 at 12:56 pmWhere he is today is still a mystery.
He’s likely dead from being tortured and they would like that to be kept under wraps.
April 17th, 2009 at 12:57 pmThey were probably a little ‘too enhanced’ when applying the ‘attention grasp’ technique.
So, no body, no crime, dude just disappeared.
One of the many we murdered?
Cheney death squad?
What a proud and law abiding nation we are.
April 17th, 2009 at 12:59 pmWhoa whoa whoa!…now everyone knows these pimp stroll techniques worked…I mean we got Bin Laden OK! International terrorism has ceased…There are Democratic countries in the Middle East…the threat to the U.S. has been countered and defea…WHAT?!? What do you mean it’s all a dream?!?
Someone LIED?!? Surely you jest?!? Well, I do declare!
/Snark
April 17th, 2009 at 12:59 pmDoesn’t Dubya have a valet named Ghust? Maybe his heart was sacrificed for our Dear (former) Vice President’s personal use.
April 17th, 2009 at 1:01 pmthe memo says he was subjected to “facial hold,” “facial slap,” “stress positions,” “sleep deprivation,” a technique called “walling,” in which a detainee’s shoulders are repeatedly smashed against a wall, and the “attention grasp,” in which the detainee is placed in a choke-hold and slapped.
Any one of these techiques is easily defined as torture.
April 17th, 2009 at 1:02 pmThe censors should be fined.
Wasn’t Pinochet convicted of crimes like these?
April 17th, 2009 at 1:03 pmProof the Bush administration “disappeared” people.
While President Obama looks “forward.”
For shame.
April 17th, 2009 at 1:04 pmSo just what does President Obama feel he can look forward to here? Being a laughing stock on the world stage because he chooses not to prosecute criminal activity because it isn’t politically expedient? A President who is also a lawyer, Constitutional at that, and no prosecution.
Yup, I’d want to look forward to that kind of stuff.
April 17th, 2009 at 1:14 pmRUCeriousMaggot!:
Can I try some of those techniques on you?
April 17th, 2009 at 1:17 pm——————————————————
Now this is something to protest about; Bush and Cheney should be locked up.
The reference can be found at the bottom of Page 7 in the memo, where Ghul’s surname is spelled “Gul.”
____________
Is this the only evidence that the person being referred to is Hassan Ghul? “Gul” is a common name in much of Central Asia.
April 17th, 2009 at 1:19 pmWhy bother having a justice department? Why have any laws at all? A prosecution is by it’s very nature looking back. To hell with using President Obama. Respect is earned, and lost obama and you’re losing it like blood out of an artery, of a detaniee who’s being ehanceidly interogated.
April 17th, 2009 at 1:22 pmHe can be found in Cheney’s man-sized safe.
April 17th, 2009 at 1:22 pmSpecifically, the memo says he was subjected to “facial hold,” “facial slap,” “stress positions,” “sleep deprivation,” a technique called “walling,” in which a detainee’s shoulders are repeatedly smashed against a wall, and the “attention grasp,” in which the detainee is placed in a choke-hold and slapped.
Yeah, that’s pretty mean all right. But wouldn’t it be more effective to just pat him on his cheeks, and tell him his next interrogator would be a big, hulking homosexual weightlifter from Muscle Beach?
Or how about telling him that the the guards are now going to tie him to a bed before letting Lorena Bobbitt in to conduct a private interview with him?
Or that if he continues not to cooperate, those “All Beef Franks” he gets for dinner just might have a few pig snouts ground up in them?
Even better: pipe in a continual radio stream of Boss Limbaugh 24/7.
Opps. Forget the last one. Tha would be too cruel. Better to stick to waterboarding than the Republicna Boss Hog.
April 17th, 2009 at 1:23 pmThe trolls love to pose the hypothetical “24″ scenario when trying to rationalize the use of torture. I would like to play the other side of that one:
President Obama-
How would you feel if a member of your immediate family overseas were scooped up by a shadow government faction, renditioned to an unknown foreign nation and held, uncharged, for six years? No contact with his family, a lawyer or representative of his own Country. The family is not even aware after six years if he is alive or dead. Suppose your relative is completely innocent and was turned in by a rival countryman solely for the bounty money. Then your relative is put through the extreme techniques that the Bush memos lay out. Daily for six years. I’ll repeat it again so it sinks in, DAILY FOR SIX YEARS. Then, out of the blue you are released uncharged. No apology, no recourse. Then the man wholey responsible for your release urges you to forget about retribution for your incarceration and six long years of torture. You should look forward, just be glad that you are now free. Would that satisfy you, Mr. President. Do you think that this kind of response will help to regain what was lost through the last eight years? Honestly? Consider the definition of the word “justice” for a moment. Is what you are doing so far justice?
April 17th, 2009 at 1:25 pmGhul is either dead or insane. That is why his name isn’t listed anymore. Look we are the USA and the leader of the Free World as we torture woman/children. This information was released by the Foreign Press and the Red Cross years ago but no American wanted to hear it. As President Bush announced to the World the US doesnt’ torture and the Media supported his words. I heard from soldiers about this but they didn’t tell me how the woman and children were tortured. This action is now part of US History and nothing President Obama can do will change that pass. We lost our countries Values/Morals when we allowed Bush/Cheney to steal the 2000 election, be lost our mines when we allowed them the second term. Now the World sees that the United States of America is that Axis of Evil Bush spoke about.
April 17th, 2009 at 1:28 pmThe righteous righties have a means of extracting information from detainees that would not violate US or international law.
Just make them listen to Michelle or Sarah.
April 17th, 2009 at 1:31 pmKO summed up my feelings on this very well last night with his special comment:
April 17th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
#24
Laying out the bait, eh? Stay classy.
April 17th, 2009 at 1:36 pmhp Says:
Luckily, nobody watches msnbc.
Were you born stupid, or did your mama drop you on your head too many times?
April 17th, 2009 at 1:37 pmIt is good to say “we won’t do it again.” It is not, however…enough.
Enough is when the truth is known and the guilty punished. That is what a nation of law is.
April 17th, 2009 at 1:37 pmWayne, he’s just laying out the bait we’ve seen a million times. He’s a pimple.
April 17th, 2009 at 1:38 pmbonat @#14 ~ You missed my invisible /snark….
April 17th, 2009 at 1:39 pmhp Says:
Radio talk show icon Michael Savage has teabagged up with the Thomas More Law Center of Ann Arbor, Mich….
And this is news?
April 17th, 2009 at 1:41 pmEven with the secrecy and the previous insistence that “enhanced interrogation” was reserved for only a select few, we already know of at least 1 death of our captives.
Now it is coming out that the number tortured was much, much, higher. Wonder how many folks have disappeared never to return ?
April 17th, 2009 at 1:42 pmAnd hp continues to chum the waters… let the pimple be.
April 17th, 2009 at 1:42 pmAgree with # 23
Obama’s reluctance to prosecute will be used against him later.
His enemies will say, with the release of these memos, that what we did really wasn’t such a big deal, they will minimize this and rationalize it as well saying it really wasn’t torture, until they effectively strip out the immorality of it all, in the mind of public opinion.
I guarentee you…it’s already being done.
April 17th, 2009 at 1:42 pmI like you, hp. You’re so colorful and happy.
April 17th, 2009 at 1:44 pmWhat a stupid comparison…give it a rest.
April 17th, 2009 at 1:45 pmWho is really running this country?
1. CIA + Military Industrial Complex
2. Corporate Lobbyists
3. Both 1 & 2
Is there fear the CIA may pull off another JFK?
April 17th, 2009 at 1:46 pmpastcaring Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation.
What should be talked about on the t.v. box is how detainees, were abused in actuality…such as having lights rammed up their rect^m…their pen!s cut…etc.,
Don’t know why this was awaiting moderation….
April 17th, 2009 at 1:47 pmYes, how strange…
April 17th, 2009 at 1:51 pmhp! You must be a big hit with the ladies.
What’s your secret?
Chloroform?
April 17th, 2009 at 1:51 pmhp
April 17th, 2009 at 1:52 pmi bet you wank off to pictures of men in full length leather jackets sporting red armbands and pretty death’s heads amulets on their hats
spring heeled jack Says:
hp! You must be a big hit with the ladies.
What’s your secret?
Chloroform?
Body Odor.
April 17th, 2009 at 1:52 pmhp Says: Would you loons rather have a little drink of water or get your throat slashed?
I’d prefer a Corona with a slice of lime personally. Does this whacked out non sequitor mean you like the idea that the US is now known for torture and other third world despotic behavior?
April 17th, 2009 at 1:53 pmObama is dead wrong on this one. The reason Bush and the Boyz were confident that they could torture in the name of the USA was because they knew that the next guy would look forward, let bygones be bygones. The problem goes back to Nixon’s pardon and now is perpetuated indefinitely.
By refusing to go after the torturers and their enablers we are putting our own soldiers at greater risk of being tortured.
Fck the torturers and fck their piss-soaked enablers.
April 17th, 2009 at 1:54 pmjust remember hp,
you expose our troops to the same type of “enhanced interrogation” employed by the united states if they are caught since we have set the bar that this is acceptable.
then again, why would you care since you’re another pussycon who has never served and hates the troops to begin with.
April 17th, 2009 at 1:56 pmIt is sort of nice to hear Proud declare what he is proud of. Torture, wire tapping, forgiveness of war criminals.
Thanks for clarifying your position there, buddy.
April 17th, 2009 at 1:56 pmhp Says:
Would you loons rather have a little drink of water or get your throat slashed?
So you were born stupid, then your mama dropped you on your head too many times after that….
April 17th, 2009 at 1:57 pmproud to be a moron,
contrary to the wet dream you have that pelosi and reed would be indicted for complicity in this mess, they could not be for the simple reason them “leaking” this program would have breeched national security.
try again, you hot mess
April 17th, 2009 at 2:00 pmPresident Obama + Congress, in order to get down to business they need to:
1. Clean up the CIA & MIC
2. get rid of lobbyists
3. Close loop holes the wealthy uses to off shore their money
4. Raise the cap income on social security
As it stands now, the wealthy, CIA with MIC and lobbyists have too much power over Congress/President Obama.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:01 pmhp & proud are shivering under their beds in fear of the boogeyman.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:02 pmuncle ho,
April 17th, 2009 at 2:03 pmi beg to differ.
proud and hp are shivering under the sheets together in a sequel to the right’s teabagging festivities the other day.
hp@52,
April 17th, 2009 at 2:04 pmsure as soon as you come up with the numbers of beheaddings compared to how many people were subjected to torture by our government.
The CIA is a rogue government agency that travels the world wreaking havoc and mayhem and fomenting a future of anti-American reprisals. They are the antithesis of themselves, in that they make us less safe.
Hear, hear, JFK! Let’s splinter them into a million pieces and throw them up into the air! [I won't be riding in a convertible in Dallas anytime soon.]
April 17th, 2009 at 2:05 pmHow would you all propose that we interrogate prisoners?
April 17th, 2009 at 2:06 pmslip_left,
April 17th, 2009 at 2:07 pmperhaps within the confines of the geneva convention of which we are signators. seems to have worked pretty damn well until the assclown known as 43 came along.
Proud Says:
Thank goodness Obama has not listened to you nutjobs on the left, other than releasing this report, which was a major blunder and just plain stupid, He so far has maintained the Bush Policies that have been successful in keeping us safe since 9/11.
You are joking, right?
Bush was successful in keeping us safe since 9/11 ?
Why did he let 9/11 happen with all the overwhelming evidence?
He let it happen and a real investigation was thwarted.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:09 pmI am Proud that my country has the balls to torture women and children. I am Proud that Bush defended the honor of his Daddy by going after Sadam. I am so Proud of the American men and women who died for nothing. I am Proud that I don’t cry myself to sleep more than five nights a week.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:10 pmhp Says:
Radio talk show icon Michael Savage has teamed up with the Thomas More Law Center of Ann Arbor, Mich., to file a lawsuit against Department of Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano.
Thanks for the laugh, hp.
.
Proud Says:
Thank goodness Obama has not listened to you nutjobs on the left, other than releasing this report…
If Obama did a bunch of illegal stuff that you didn’t like, he should be allowed to get away with it then? OK.
.
hp Says:
“enhanced interrogation”
“beheading”
Can we make a rational comparison? Which is worse? Who set the bar?
No, we really can’t make a rational comparison. But if we did it, we’d call it “rapid cranial removal.” If you consider bad behavior justified merely because somebody else in the world behaves worse than you do, then you’re going to inevitably race to the bottom, morally speaking. Standards of behavior are standards for a reason. Thus, you are a bad person. Just because somebody else is arguably worse doesn’t exonerate you.
Whatever happened to patriotism? Whatever happened to being willing to assume at least a small amount of personal risk in defense of the ideals upon which your country was founded? Why do you hate America?
.
slip_left Says:
How would you all propose that we interrogate prisoners?
Cookies and lattes, natch. Just kidding. Sort of.
Actually, there have been lots of long-standing techniques which don’t involve torturing people, which have been developed for decades, and which worked fine until the cowardly neocons who wet their pants over the mere thought of brown people with bombs were put in charge of de gubmint.
Every regime that starts torturing people seems to think that they came up with the idea first. As if it hasn’t been tried and failed spectacularly time and again throughout history.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:25 pm“Shellshock”
“Post Traumatic Stress Disorder”
Can we make a rational comparison? Which is worse? Who set the bar?
Oh wait, different terms for the same thing. Nice try hp, you sexy beast you.
hp, are you saying that the only other option to the U.S. cuddly coaxing methods is beheading?
April 17th, 2009 at 2:28 pmRather than tell the “libby’s” how they would interrogate prisoners, how would you interrogate them? I believe that was the question that was asked, hp.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:29 pmhttp://www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,Weisman_110303,00.html
I would like to hear honest feedback.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:30 pmhp, you have a bunch of car batteries, sponges and washtubs out in your garage, don’tcha?
April 17th, 2009 at 2:32 pmhp Says:
The libby’s would immediately impose a really nice sitting down and talking to by a left wing terrorist sympathizing counselor followed by millions of dollars in “rehab” then turn them loose so they can go do it all over again…..
The righties would probably torture the guy several years, out of sight of the world, leaving the prisoner’s families to suffer, until several years later they release the guy (probably in a different country altogether) while hoping that he, and his friends and family, will not hold a grudge and will continue to love America and McDonalds and Blackwater.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:32 pmI think they should be gently massaged with aromatic oils while enjoying the soothing sounds of soft music. After, they should be fed a 7 course meal with all the trimmings.
/Snark :]
April 17th, 2009 at 2:34 pmThe Scooter “Libby’s” of the world, hp?
April 17th, 2009 at 2:34 pmslip_left Says:
How would you all propose that we interrogate prisoners?
We might try by adhering to well established procedures. If they are members of a foreign military of a nation we have officially declared war against, the Geneva Conventions would apply. If they are not members of a recognized foreign military and in the absence of a declared war, then standard US protocols would apply.
In this case, if it isn’t legal in a US jail, it isn’t legal.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:35 pmpastcaring, is that nearly enough? I think we should raid the Republican coffers so we can send them all off to a day spa, where they can get their toes kissed by the virgin of their choice. I mean, after all, that’s our agenda, no?
Oh, wait, that was just in the fake memo we sent to Glen Beck, it’s fun to watch him melt down.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:39 pmWhat is this right wing fantasy about captured/detained people having to say anything? The Geneva Convention states name, rank and serial number. US law says the right to be silent.
Face it, bozos, they are not required to say diddly squat!
April 17th, 2009 at 2:40 pmI agree!!! I failed to cover all the bases I see…
April 17th, 2009 at 2:41 pmbut brownies would be nice….
April 17th, 2009 at 2:41 pmpastcaring says:
Don’t let it happen again or we’re cutting off your latte supply.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:42 pmNooooooo!!!! Not My LAAAAATTTTEEESSS!!!!!
:[
April 17th, 2009 at 2:44 pmThere was nothing “inadvertent” about the decision not to redact. These have to be the most pored-over FOIA documents, before releasing, perhaps in US history. Holder is fingering the CIA and the Bush Administration for murder of a ghost detainee. And until the Government can produce Hassan Gul, alive, that’s just what should be done.
April 17th, 2009 at 3:10 pmWould you rather DROWN or have your throat slashed? That’s the question moron. It’s quicker to have your throat slashed then to die from never ending torture. Idiot.
April 17th, 2009 at 3:14 pmhp Says:
“enhanced interrogation”
“beheading”
Can we make a rational comparison? Which is worse? Who set the bar?
Well, decapitated heads don’t talk, for one.
April 17th, 2009 at 3:43 pmSo your “rational comparison” of interrogation falls flat.
As for which is worse, I tell ya what, I’d rather have a few seconds of pain followed by instant death than continuous torture and pain for months!
Who set the bar? Your idiot in charge the last 8 years, that’ who.
Mucking foron!
hp:
How to you compare your expertise on the topic with that of these experienced military professionals? Thanks in advance for your thoughtful reply…
http://explore.georgetown.edu/news/?ID=31844
April 17th, 2009 at 3:46 pm72. Hoodathunktick Says:
While I partially agree, I see a big hole in that the Bush Admin continuously skated the lines between enemy combatant, vs. enemy soldier, vs. other designations and then pulled out which ever designation was more convenient at the time.
April 17th, 2009 at 3:50 pmEscape goat? Do you leave it running while you go in and torture?
April 17th, 2009 at 3:54 pmMapleStreet Says: While I partially agree, I see a big hole in that the Bush Admin continuously skated the lines between enemy combatant, vs. enemy soldier, vs. other designations and then pulled out which ever designation was more convenient at the time.
The thing is, it is one or the other under US law. Bush’s wiggle was just his butt trying to find a spot where his hemmies didn’t hurt.
There is no legal middle ground. Enemy soldiers (defined by US and international law) or foreign civilians. Our legal code doesn’t recognize anything else, in spite of Bushy wiggling.
April 17th, 2009 at 3:55 pmAnd oh yes… a .22 is much more civilized than beheading.
April 17th, 2009 at 3:55 pmhow would you interrogate them?
April 17th, 2009 at 4:03 pm—
Well we could start by making them eat at Applebee’s and watch endless episodes of Dancing w/ the Stars while listening to Christian “rock” but I am afraid that would be torture as well…
hp Says:
Radio talk show icon Michael Savage…Is an insane nutball who is in dire need of massive doses of Haldol
April 17th, 2009 at 4:47 pmhp Says:
Luckily, nobody watches msnbc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
More luckily no one pays attention to morons like YOU
April 17th, 2009 at 4:53 pmhp Says:
Would you loons rather have a little drink of water or get your throat slashed?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Would you rather eat ice cream or be gutted like a fish? You are a moron. You are a coward and a punk. You are a troll and you are ostentatiously stupid
April 17th, 2009 at 4:55 pmslip_left Says:
How would you all propose that we interrogate prisoners?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Legally and within the confines of decency and American values. To put it simply the way we would want our brother interrogated
April 17th, 2009 at 4:57 pmhp Says:
You sick twisted freak. You have no concept of what decency even IS. They do what THEY do and it defines them. We do what WE do and it defines us. Honor is a gift a country gives itself. It doesnt come without cost. If it did it would have little meaning it is only WHEN you pay that cost and continue to BE decent that you have any right to CLAIM decency. Sick souless wingnuts like just dont understand right and wrong. You only understand that you are gutless cowards and you are scared. You of course would DEMAND that we be SEEN as honorable no matter HOW we act but that isnt how it works. To BE honorable you act WITH honor. You do that even WHEN those you oppose do not. These are just some of the reasons the far right is seen as dispicable and are fast becoming completely irrelevant. Just go cower under your mommys bed and let the adults make the hard decisions you have proven you are simply not up to them.
April 17th, 2009 at 5:03 pmhp Says: 62
What was the point of that post other than to show you are an ignorant cowardly punk who doesen even understand the concept of decency and to show the depth of your brainwashing? It is certainly the only think it accomplished. You are so stupid it must hurt
April 17th, 2009 at 5:06 pmslip_left Says:
http://www.military.com/ NewContent/ 0,13190,Weisman_110303,00.html
I would like to hear honest feedback.
OK. Lemme embed the gist of your link first.
If the officer in question was actually serious about using such methods to save his unit, he would choose that over his career. There’s also such a thing as accepting responsibility for your actions. As Lt. Col West said himself in the hearing: “I admit that what I did was not right but it was done with the concern of the safety of my soldiers and myself.” If it wasn’t right, there should be consequences. If he felt it was worth the consequences, then more power to him. That doesn’t remove the consequences, though.
It isn’t provable from this example that the methods he employed were in any way necessary. Nor does the letter you cite present any evidence that such an ambush actually existed. The writer merely asserts that one was averted, without giving any description that would support its existence in the first place. Maybe the police officer being beaten and threatened with death (on the word of one informant) gave the names of three insurgents; maybe he gave up three random names of people he knew (and what happened to them?) There’s really no way to verify that an attack would have taken place if he didn’t, or that he was guilty of anything at all now.
So, how trustworthy is that claim? Let’s look at the author bio for clues:
Another chickenhawk fiction writer. Great.
Now, I could stop here, but I figured I’d give your story a little more credit than that. So I googled Lt. Col. West, and found this:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36116
Yes, that’s WorldNetDaily. It’s also all over FreeRepublic.
Here’s the original article they cite:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2003/oct/28/20031028-113335-6042r/
But never mind, let’s continue (WND)
The Washington Times article claims that he initially said he never physically abused the detainee. So I guess he changed his story. Your article also skimmed over mentioning the “beating” part. In short, the officer got a deal and was fined $5,000 for his misbehavior.
Case closed, quit your bawling.
April 18th, 2009 at 2:36 amElBruce Says:
I appreciate your response, and no, I wasn’t bawling. I should have stated that I selected a very condensed version of the situation (no bias intended) and that you could freely find full narratives. The beatings wasn’t intended to be in question. Any version will fully illustrate my point…that ‘torture’ yields positive results at times (many on this site have said that torture doesn’t work). This point relegates the argument from objectivity to subjectivity…in other words, the morality of torture. On this note, I am not convinced that this officer’s actions (the shooting) where not justified. He had significant reason to believe that Soldier’s under his command were in imminent danger and sacrificed his career for the sake of his Soldier’s well-being (not simply a $5,000 fine as you would minimize his punishment to be). As an army officer, I would appreciate serving under LTC West’s command, and I would make the same sacrifice.
April 18th, 2009 at 2:58 amslip_left Says:
This point relegates the argument from objectivity to subjectivity…in other words, the morality of torture. On this note, I am not convinced that this officer’s actions (the shooting) where not justified.
I’m not sure they weren’t, I’m not sure they were. I do know for a fact that it was not within his authority to convict the person he had in custody and subject him to punitive measures without due process.
If you really believe that what you’re doing is right, then you should be willing to suffer the legal consequences of doing it. If you’re going to complain that you were in the right later on, then you didn’t really care enough to bite that bullet. Stepping outside the law is stepping outside the law, whether you feel it was necessary or not. If you do decide to get all Batman up in here, then just accept the fact that you’re no longer working inside the law, as Batman does. There will be consequences to your actions either way. Accept them or don’t do it.
.
slip_left Says:
Any version will fully illustrate my point…that ‘torture’ yields positive results at times (many on this site have said that torture doesn’t work).
Maybe torture didn’t “work” in this case. Maybe the threat was all in his imagination. We’ll never know, since there was no legitimate authority or due process involved.
.
slip_left Says:
He had significant reason to believe that Soldier’s under his command were in imminent danger and sacrificed his career for the sake of his Soldier’s well-being (not simply a $5,000 fine as you would minimize his punishment to be).
I looked it up, that’s all I could find that they did to him. I wasn’t minimizing it, I was posting the entirety of the judgement that I could find from researching the case. I’ll dig a little more…
From WND:
April 18th, 2009 at 3:14 am
slip_left Says:
Is it really your contention that because it MIGHT work sometimes( your little story is hardly definitive) then it is justifyable? Hey you know what works to pay the bills? Robbing banks. Does that mean I GET to rob banks to pay the bills? The argument is ludicrous. Also even if it DID work what is the evidence other ways were not available? Would you REALlY sell Americas values down the river for such palty returns? Do you really have so little respect for the constitution and basic common decency? For our Country? For our good name? Shame on you. You shame our ancestors
April 18th, 2009 at 4:36 amOK Pat obviously senile dementia has set in. Time to see the nice young men that will need to take care of you soon.burun estetigi rent a car arac kiralama
April 18th, 2009 at 5:08 amsac ekimi
Eugene atrax robustus Debs Says:
You again?! Read it again, please. I said that if torture yielded positive results, one cannot argue is its injustice based upon this objectivity!! You could only argue its injustice based on subjectivity…morality. In fact, I am sworn to protect and defend the constitution. It is more important to me than my life. You are a coward to speak so brashly behind the protection of anonymity.
April 18th, 2009 at 10:05 amEugene atrax robustus Debs Says
Would you REALlY sell Americas values down the river for such palty returns
I do not consider Soldiers’ lives to paltry.
April 18th, 2009 at 10:09 amElBruce Says:
I agree with many of your points as I am a true believer of just consequence. The intent really was to incite comments regarding what the LTC had done. Personally, it seems that while this act was illegal it must be formally condemned, makes sense to me. But informally? What sorts of emotion does it illicit? For my officer class (14 others) and the LTC instructing this case study, the response was unanimous adoration and respect as a sort of ‘take-one-for-the-team’ view (of course, maybe we were all constitution hating crazies). For his sacrifice, there were several go arounds as you mentioned. I feel, though, that being no longer able to serve when this is what you love is much more of a cost than the 5k.
April 18th, 2009 at 10:26 amslip_left Says:
You ARE a coward. Your fear would have you sell Americas values for YOUR feelings of safety. You are gutless and I only WISH I had the opportunity to tell you so to your face PUNK. Soldiers lives ARE important but NOT more important than our Constituion which PRECLUDES cruel and unusual punishment. You are only making appologies FOR torture which is clearly Unconstitutional and arguing to do so FOR first YOUR safety THEN the safety of some troops. If you have to torture someone to save my life. Let me die. Better to lose my life than to lose my soul or to have our country sacrifice ITS soul and its core values.
April 18th, 2009 at 4:08 pmslip_left Says: 100
Reading your last post I can see I possibly misjudged your meaning and if that is so, I appologize. Your other post seemed such a clear bleat of cowardice that is arguing that for our POSSIBLE safety you were willing to jettison our values I was inscenced. That however seemed to be abour wiretapping. I see no argument that torture is not EVIL. Did it ever occur to you that the one being tortured isnt the ONLY victim here? Ever SEE PTSD? That a soldier MIGHT follow orders or in the context of the war and being caught up in what SEEMED appropriate might torture someone but then BECAUSE he is a decent human being be tortured by the memory and huanted by the losing of his humanity for doing so suffer terribly for the rest of his life once that surreal context the war gave him was changed for going back to his life here at home in a more civilized setting? You can make a decision in a second that you regret the rest of your life. We cannot torture. I cant even understand the argument that there is a subjective argument supporting it. Benjamin Franklin had it right. Giving up essential freedom for temporary security is a fools game and I would extend this to say to give up our values as a country for temporary security and of course no other kind exists, is also a fools game
April 18th, 2009 at 4:16 pmWhen thinking of all the inhumane things our government has done to others, it makes me ashamed to call myself an American. I can only hope those who order and condone this kind of cruel behavior find their Karma has served them well. May whatever ‘God’ is, reward them well for all of their actions. And never forget, TIME WOUNDS ALL HEELS.
May 1st, 2009 at 12:26 pm