Footnote to 2005 OLC memo reveals waterboarding used ‘with far greater frequency than initially indicated.’
Footnote to 2005 OLC memo reveals waterboarding used ‘with far greater frequency than initially indicated.’
Earlier this year, President Bush defended his administration’s use of torture by claiming that the techniques, including waterboarding, “are necessary to be used on a rare occasion to get information to protect the American people.” However, in one of the four legal memos released yesterday, a footnote (page 41) revealed that for a time, waterboarding had been used more intensely and frequently than originally thought:
The memos include what in effect are lengthy excerpts from the agency’s interrogation manual, laying out with precision how each method was to be used. Waterboarding, for example, involved strapping a prisoner to a gurney inclined at an angle of “10 to 15 degrees” and pouring water over a cloth covering his nose and mouth “from a height of approximately 6 to 18 inches” for no more than 40 seconds at a time.
But a footnote to a 2005 memo made it clear that the rules were not always followed. Waterboarding was used “with far greater frequency than initially indicated” and with “large volumes of water” rather than the small quantities in the rules, one memo says, citing a 2004 report by the C.I.A.’s inspector general.
Following the IG report, the memo’s authors write, they implemented “a number of changes in the application of the waterboard, including limits on the frequency and cumulative use of the technique.” “All of which means that, for a period of time, these limits were not in place,” notes The Huffington Post’s Sam Stein.
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In a Wall Street Journal op-ed defending Bush’s torture program, former Bush officials Michael Hayden and Michael Mukasey claim, “The techniques themselves were used selectively against only a small number of hard-core prisoners who successfully resisted other forms of interrogation, and then only with the explicit authorization of the director of the CIA.”
Nothing like an “admission against interest”.
Cheers,
April 17th, 2009 at 10:45 amthe techniques, including waterboarding, “are necessary to be used on a rare occasion to get information to protect the American people.”
and when we’re really bored
and when we don’t like the looks of the guy
and…
and…
and…
April 17th, 2009 at 10:48 amFootnote to 2005 OLC memo reveals waterboarding used ‘with far greater frequency than initially indicated.’
– - See this in the OLC memo?…
They explicitly recognized that the techniques they were authorizing were ones that we condemned other countries for using — including as “torture” — but nonetheless approved them, explicitly saying that the standards we impose on others do not bind us in any way.
It’s not torture if the United States does it. The last seven years have revealed that almost the entire American establishment views itself as immune to the moral and ethical rules it applies to every other country in the world. Now we know, at least. And you can be sure they will protecting each other to the bitter end.
April 17th, 2009 at 10:48 amAnyone catch Joe Scarborough this morning? If that guy isn’t the biggest apologist for torture, I don’t know who is. He makes me ill.
April 17th, 2009 at 10:51 amIs ANYBODY surprised that “the rules were not always followed” during the Bush administration?
April 17th, 2009 at 10:52 am“…former Bush officials Michael Hayden and Michael Mukasey claim…”
____________________________________________________________
Translation: Expect spin machines to be running full-tilt for awhile as the Bushies attempt to save their a$$es in the light of recent memo reveals.
Problem is — why should we believe them?
April 17th, 2009 at 10:55 amto get information to protect the American people.
There is a lie that most of them try to make use of.
So now everyone knows they tortured prisoners.
April 17th, 2009 at 10:57 amDoesn’t that fact force a real investigation ?
This makes me sick, and further more, I don’t think we know the half of it yet. How dare the Bush administration just throw the Geneva Conventions out the window? We MUST address this problem.
April 17th, 2009 at 10:58 amIn a Wall Street Journal op-ed defending Bush’s torture program, former Bush officials Michael Hayden and Michael Mukasey claim, “The techniques themselves were used selectively against only a small number of hard-core prisoners who successfully resisted other forms of interrogation, and then only with the explicit authorization of the director of the CIA.”
Oh. Then torture is okay?
Why don’t these people ever own up to what they did and call it torture?
April 17th, 2009 at 10:59 amI’m surprised Hillary let these come out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaL49GvUZXo
April 17th, 2009 at 11:00 amOh, so you mean that waterboarding wasn’t limited solely to the three suspects that the WH admitted to? Where are the torture defending trolls to assert that this technique was used sparingly and only for the worst of the worst (not that that is any defense for the use of torture)? It sounds like it was one the CIA’s favorite applications according to these memos.
America as a whole is guilty of what was done in OUR name until the approvers and justifiers of torture are brought to justice. Until then, the blood is on ALL of our hands. Are you listening Mr. President?
April 17th, 2009 at 11:01 ammisscoleopteramolly Says:
Translation: Expect spin machines to be running full-tilt for awhile as the Bushies attempt to save their a$$es in the light of recent memo reveals.
April 17th, 2009 at 10:55 am
__________
Save their asses from what? It’s not like they’re being prosecuted for these crimes.
Their asses are already saved.
April 17th, 2009 at 11:01 amIgnoranceIsNotBliss Says:
Anyone catch Joe Scarborough this morning? If that guy isn’t the biggest apologist for torture, I don’t know who is. He makes me ill.
– - What’s important though, is that Mika’s hair and makeup are just perfect and that she mugs for the camera.
April 17th, 2009 at 11:02 amHow much more do we need to see before investigations begin…I mean, really though…
April 17th, 2009 at 11:03 amOkay, anyone that does NOT think that waterboarding is torture, I have a challenge for all you non lifeguards and non scuba trained individuals.
Have someone FORCEFULLY submerge you completely in water for 40 seconds.
Doesn’t seem that long, does it?
Try it!
In fact, for a bonus round, have someone surprise you with the submersion.
Trust me, 40 seconds will seem like an eternity.
And since the rules were not followed, I am pretty much sure the “no more than 40 seconds” procedure was exceeded. Far exceeded.
April 17th, 2009 at 11:08 amIt’s like catching a seasoned shoplifter and he/she claims this was the first time.
Just like with illegal wiretapping, we were assured that it was only happening under the FISA law, no wait, it’s not always with a warrant but still limited to overseas calls, no wait, it was happening all the time to everyone.
Lying sacks of sh!t and I’m so disappointed with what appears to be Obama’s position on forcing the truth to surface and those culpable held to account within the criminal justice system.
PEACE
April 17th, 2009 at 11:08 amClinton haters are the scum of the earth.
April 17th, 2009 at 11:08 amHayden was always a suck up
April 17th, 2009 at 11:11 amIn a Wall Street Journal op-ed defending Bush’s torture program, former Bush officials Michael Hayden and Michael Mukasey claim, “The techniques themselves were used selectively against only a small number of hard-core prisoners who successfully resisted other forms of interrogation and who, when tortured, then provided us with completely erroneous and useless information that caused more harm than good, and then only with the explicit authorization of the director of the CIA.”
There — I fixed it for ya, Bushbots…
April 17th, 2009 at 11:20 amshorter Hayden & Mukasey:
Ordnung ist ordnung!(orders are orders)
und ve ver just following orders
The Nuremberg defense
April 17th, 2009 at 11:28 amThis makes Panetta’s and Obama’s hands off CIA interrogators look like the free pass that it is.
April 17th, 2009 at 11:31 amUntil the US investigates these issues and prosecutes all involved we will be relegated to the status of third world, tinpot dictatorship. Right alongside Saddam Hussein, Pinochet, Pol Pot and dozens of other countries where the leaders claimed violating civil rights and international law was needed to maintain their country’s existence.
Stopping the use of torture ain’t anywhere near enough to clean our skirts. Nor would having another country do our dirty work.
The ironic thing is that if the Bush regime used the standards of the Bush regime, we should have invaded ourselves to ‘free the people so they could develop a democracy.”
April 17th, 2009 at 11:33 amIgnoranceIsNotBliss Says:
Anyone catch Joe Scarborough this morning? If that guy isn’t the biggest apologist for torture, I don’t know who is. He makes me ill.
I did watch that this morning and all I could think is that he made a great case FOR the special prosecutor.
April 17th, 2009 at 11:38 amWhen a kid tells me they didn’t do something. Then they say they did it a little, then they say they did it a little more….
My conclusion is that they have really done it.
April 17th, 2009 at 11:47 amSince Bybee and Yoo were formulating these absurd opinions into a memo at Addington’s request, why is this not a RICO prosecution?
April 17th, 2009 at 12:00 pmHere is a true cause for a grassroots movement. We must speak out against conservative pundits who continue to dismiss torture as simply “slapping” suspects or “blasting loud music.” The torture memos provide proof of America’s shame. Torture techniques were approved by G.W. Bush under a leader who espoused “Christian values” and in the quest to spread “democracy,” below the boast of “Keeping America safe.” Torture was accomplished through the calculated politicization of our justice department and the manipulation and expansion of executive power. The Bush administration purposely took advantage of Americans’ post-911 fears and paranoia. The administration repeatedly lied to hide its deeds from the American people. The torture conspiracy was committed well after the initial attack on American soil. It was calculated and then covered up. Americans must pressure government leadership to investigate further. Which Congress person will ignored veiled threats by Murkesy and Hadley and show the courage to pursue a complete investigation? The shame is great and it will be long lasting unless justice is served. This is America’s “Never Forget” moment. We must be up to the task.
April 17th, 2009 at 12:07 pmNever fear, we don’t consider that a WAR CRIME anymore, Bush and Cheney can hold their heads up high knowing that they will not go to trial for it.
Wasn’t this supposed to be a Law and Order Country at one point?
April 17th, 2009 at 12:12 pmfederationfilms Says He Blows Goats.
That bit is sooooo edited, any fool can see that, consider yourself flagged.
April 17th, 2009 at 12:19 pmIn their self-interested WSJ op-ed of almost 1,700 words, Bush appointees Hayden and Mukasey offer not even a single phrase expressing concern or regret over the use of torture by the U.S. government. Given their worldview and value system, this may not be surprising. But it is a valuable reminder of how thankful we should be that neither of them is part of the new administration.
April 17th, 2009 at 12:22 pmEither we prosecute these WAR CRIMES or we become the enemy.
We are either a nation of laws or we are living in a Tyranny. No one can be above the law or the law is useless.
And if Obama does not push for prosecutions, he is as guilty as Bush. Period.
April 17th, 2009 at 12:23 pmTwo American journalists jailed in North Korea:
Even North Korea scoffs at us for our human rights abuses.
And for those who would try to say it’s an unfair comparison:
And, one more fun fact: Did you know we have the same judicial system as Iran for our foreign prisoners?
April 17th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
I don’t like all the focus on waterboarding. It’s terrible, but it’s not the only way that people were tortured in custody by the military or CIA. Some people were put in sleeping bags and beaten to death with hammers and baseball bats. Some people were ravaged by dogs. Some people were exposed to the elements until they died. Urine was sprayed on them, menstrual blood was smeared on them, their genitals were wired to car batteries, they were forced to perform sex acts. Bibles and korans were defaced. And those are just the things that I’ve read about in credible news sources.
April 17th, 2009 at 12:31 pmCarol A. says:
Just a reminder, it was “Christian values” that gave birth to the Spanish Inquistion.
April 17th, 2009 at 12:34 pmThe rack, hot coals, waterboarding, etc.
I just noticed, there seems to be a dearth of trolls on this thread trying to defend the indefensible.
April 17th, 2009 at 12:37 pmWhat gives?
Bruce Fein: How Obama Excused Torture
April 17th, 2009 at 12:50 pmSo if someone just selectively kills just one person — or even a “small handful” — it’s not murder?
Dear sweet lord …
Can someone tell me why, after WWII, we treated Nazis and Japanese war criminals better than this? Seriously. What they did was, oh, about 6 million times more heinous, yet we gave them access to lawyers, the evidence against them, and didn’t torture them when they didn’t talk.
We even executed the Japanese who tortured people via … waterboarding.
It’s disgusting that in a fit of blind, impotent rage, the Bush administration wound up becoming the very thing it was trying to destroy.
There truly is a special place for these people in whatever hell exists …
April 17th, 2009 at 12:54 pmSo scumball Michael Hayden is defending torture. His lying ass was on the Charlie Rose Show swearing up and down that exactly 3 people had been waterboarded. And as pointed out by #36, we executed Japanese after WWII for waterboarding POW’s. I guess it’s only wrong when the “enemy” does it.
April 17th, 2009 at 1:16 pmEveryone that allows waterboarding should have been subjected to waterboarding before allowing it to be used on others. Lets just see how Lawyer Bybee enjoys it.
April 17th, 2009 at 1:30 pmYou guys think this is bad, wait until we find out how many detainees died under torture procedures, and how. That’s “the other shoe” I’m waiting for. You can’t torture a bunch of people repeatedly without “breaking a few eggs,” i.e. murdering some of them.
.
…the standards we impose on others do not bind us in any way.
That’s the whole problem in a nutshell, right there.
April 17th, 2009 at 1:42 pmThe torture I read about was beating someone all over their body and only skin held the body together. Death of course was the outcome. How does a person sleep at night after inflicting such torture ?
April 17th, 2009 at 1:50 pmIt has to stop, the renditions, the torture…and I want accountability especially from the President after saying to a young girl, “We don’t torture.” What a liar !
The news yesterday had an item of an 80+ year old man in ?Ohio? who was suspected of being a prison guard in a German concentration camp. He was being taken for extradition and trial. (although he got a last minute reprieve while the matter is under study).
If it is important to prosecute German guards from 65 years ago (meaning he was in his 20s), is it not even more important to put people, who in their 40s, 50s, and 60s freely condoned, advocated, and executed torture in the past few years ?
April 17th, 2009 at 1:56 pm.
GEORGE W. BUSH = LIAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4gxbDAfYBQ
.
MICHAEL HAYDEN = LIAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sia-i46xivo
.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:05 pmMapleStreet Says: The news yesterday had an item of an 80+ year old man in ?Ohio?
Said person, in advanced state of poor health, had been cleared in Israel of charges. Yet the US was trying to deport him.
Amazing what money and political influence can buy here these days.
Mr. President, please show us you weren’t/aren’t for sale.
April 17th, 2009 at 4:10 pmIt is disturbing that people accept the premise that the lower echelon should not be held accountable when they have orders from their superiors. The Nuremberg Trials proved true Americans believe in personal responsibility and personal integrity. What area of life today (except the sacred “bottom-line”) would not be improved if each of us had the integrity to say “No! That is Wrong”!
April 17th, 2009 at 5:32 pm1) The documents provide compelling evidence that the Bush Administration planned and approved interrogation techniques that are clearly torture.
2) There is no credible evidence that the use of torture during the Bush Administration ever saved a single American life or prevented a single terrorist plot. Let’s not be naive. Cheney saying so does not make it true.
Some of interrogators themselves have gone public stating that every confession made under the duress of torture proved to be bogus. People will say ANYTHING under these conditions; mostly they will just make stuff up.
Of course, it’s entirely possible that the primary motivation for these abusive practices was vengeance against anyone who resembled or was loosely associated with those who committed the atrocities of 9-11, in which case the Bush regime accomplished its objective.
3) The U.S. signed international agreements and has passed laws, confirmed by the Supreme Court, prohibiting the use of torture during interrogations of detainees. The agreements do not have an asterisk that says “except when it’s done by the U.S. against people that we suspect are bad guys”.
April 17th, 2009 at 10:16 pmOK Pat obviously senile dementia has set in. Time to see the nice young men that will need to take care of you soon.burun estetigi rent a car arac kiralama
April 18th, 2009 at 5:05 amsac ekimi