Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times in one month.
By on Apr 18th, 2009 at 10:41 pm
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times in one month.
Marcy Wheeler digs through the recently-disclosed Office of Legal Counsel memos authored by the Bush Justice Department and finds these startling statistics: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times in March 2003 and Abu Zubaydah was waterboarded 83 times in August 2002. Wheeler concludes, “The CIA wants you to believe waterboarding is effective. Yet somehow, it took them 183 applications of the waterboard in a one month period to get what they claimed was cooperation out of KSM. That doesn’t sound very effective to me.”
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WTF!!!
I knew they were sadist but this is insane!
All must be prosecuted NOW.
April 18th, 2009 at 11:01 pmbush should be tried like all the other nazis at Nuremberg.
April 18th, 2009 at 11:04 pm6X per day? That’s just crazy…after the first few I bet KSM caught on to the game. Oh gosh, I want my country back, the one I believed in where honor trumped expediency.
April 18th, 2009 at 11:11 pmDamn. No wonder the guy looks like hell in his photo.
I am so ashamed that our nation is even having this discussion. I remember a time not long ago that rational minds would have cringed at the thought of torturing people. What next, cannibalism? Eating their fingers in front of them would probably make them talk. Probably wouldn’t even have to eat all ten of them.
April 18th, 2009 at 11:14 pm183 times???
April 18th, 2009 at 11:20 pmAnd they still couldn’t drown that fat SOB.Mein gott!!!
#4 — I’m proud that we are HAVING this discussion because we are now, at last, facing the dark and evil side of the Bush Dynasty. You can bet that if McCain had been elected we wouldn’t have gotten to this point.
I AM ashamed, however, that our leaders from 2000 – 2008 were this sick, twisted and perverted to resort to this evil behavior, which is the point you were making.
April 18th, 2009 at 11:21 pmHow can we protest the conviction of Roxana Saberi, no matter how wrong it may be? We have no moral standing to say anything.
Tonight I saw Man of La Mancha and Miguel Cervantes was to be taken before the Inquisition. How is this era different than that period?
April 18th, 2009 at 11:22 pmOh, God… I feel sick.
April 18th, 2009 at 11:23 pmwow. just wow.
its too bad that it is POLITICALLY INCONVIENENT to prosecute the bush administration at this time.
having voted for obama and seen him pretty much lie down on this most important subject (against his own promises) i dont know how i would vote for him again.
April 18th, 2009 at 11:26 pmBearCountry Says:
Tonight I saw Man of La Mancha and Miguel Cervantes was to be taken before the Inquisition. How is this era different than that period?
Well, we’ve become more sophisticated in justifying our torture. The methods themselves, in spite of recent efforts to treat them as national secrets have, like those that employ them, failed to evolve since man first went to war with his fellow man.
April 18th, 2009 at 11:29 pmI’m with Annie at #8. I want to just barf…
April 18th, 2009 at 11:31 pmthat’s horrible. every day I grow more angered by the utter foolishness of the bush admin.
April 18th, 2009 at 11:35 pmSounds like something my ex-wife would do, pound the square peg into the round hole until it fit.
They, the CIA and Bush maladministration officials wanted us to think “well, it only happened a few times….”
Remember, none of this has anything to do with the prisoners that were shipped off to other countries for torture. This is only what the US did, not what was done in the US’s name in other countries.
April 18th, 2009 at 11:37 pmSick….
did he give 183 different answers…?
April 18th, 2009 at 11:42 pmI blame US. Look at what the right wing nuts are doing because of lies they’ve been told about President Obama taking their guns away and making them pay higher taxes. We knew in our hearts that this stuff was going on and we didn’t take to the streets. Not for them or for our civil liberties. Yes some people protested the war but the media managed to ignore them. There should have been so many of us in the streets that they couldn’t ignore us.
April 18th, 2009 at 11:49 pmealpatriot Says:
did he give 183 different answers…?
Probably, and we probably detained 183 innocent people. We traded our honor for nothing.
April 18th, 2009 at 11:52 pmWho is the sick f uck that will show up here to defend this?
April 18th, 2009 at 11:53 pmSorry about the missing r realpatriot.
April 18th, 2009 at 11:53 pmthat’s 60 (sixty) +/ish times per day…
holy crap.
April 18th, 2009 at 11:59 pmwaterboard bush! waterboard him now!
April 19th, 2009 at 12:01 amHey Bush Jr., and all you fools who voted and supported him during his presidency, look at yourself in the fricken mirror. That’s some legacy for that idiot back in his village in Texas.
I wonder what Dick Cheney is thinking tonight? 183 times! God Damnit! I ordered 250! This is treason!
April 19th, 2009 at 12:04 amThere is no prison hellish enough for the treasonous bastards that are BushCo.
But we as a nation MUST start somewhere. I’m thinking life with hard labor in Leavenworth is as good a place to start as any.
April 19th, 2009 at 12:04 amPresident Obama,
Is it still your intention not to prosecute the torturers…?
April 19th, 2009 at 12:05 amZooey Says:
President Obama,
Is it still your intention not to prosecute the torturers…
—————
Obama has caved in more than I had hoped. He is more accustomed to serving his critics and people who can’t pay their mortgages and graduate high school than the affluent successful base the paid his way to office!
April 19th, 2009 at 12:12 amWhat the hell are you talking about, bonat?
April 19th, 2009 at 12:14 amWay O/T, but if anyone’s watching Dave Chappelle’s show right now, the middle-aged white guy in the sketch is my former high school religion teacher.
April 19th, 2009 at 12:20 amI refuse to go down the inevitable road of blaming torture on President Obama. We all knew this – little smatterings here and there – more will come out. Bit by sorry bit. This country, our country stopped being my country a long time ago. I can hardly recognize her.
April 19th, 2009 at 12:20 amkatydid,
Sorry, love, but you were a little too exuberant there. That’s only 6 times per day. If it were 60, it would be 1,800 times in one month.
But 6 or 60, it doesn’t make it any less sick and disgusting. Hell, ONCE was too many!
April 19th, 2009 at 12:20 amblaming torture on obama???
who? where? huh???
otherwise, i’d agree – bit by sorry bit.
April 19th, 2009 at 12:23 amit will be settled. i really believe that.
ha… thanks wayne…
April 19th, 2009 at 12:24 ami never was any good at the math…
Ya, this made me a little sick too. In fact i’m still a little sick. Also very saddened. These are signs that what was done is immoral.
April 19th, 2009 at 12:26 amIts unfortunate that Cheney and Bush and Gitmo Al and the rest of the cabal didn’t have their testicles squeezed with a vice grip 183 times in a month. Of course that likely would not have sunk in…but having them experience it still would have been worth the effort.
April 19th, 2009 at 12:27 amZooey Says:
What the hell are you talking about, bonat?
I can’t answer for bonat, but I’m willing to give Obama a break on the question you originally asked. I can only hope and pray that he is unwilling to pursue the lower level folk who participated because he’s waiting for the larger fish. While “just following orders” is as lame an excuse as it was at Nuremburg, going after the interrogaters would result in convictions of the lower level folk, much as we saw during the trial of those who abused prisoners in Iraq. Sometimes I hope Obama is giving a pass to the individual folk who participated, while allowing the outcry to build for a trial of those who ordered the abomination. Of course, I am an eternal optomist
April 19th, 2009 at 12:29 amGreenwald notes that the door for investigations and prosecutions is still open, but it will take enormous pressure from the American public to push Obama through. “[T]he burden is on us to demand that something be done,” he writes.
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/04/17/door-open-for-torture-prosecutions/
April 19th, 2009 at 12:29 amAs do I Katydid – and my comments were directed toward no one – I just fear for our country. Too much violence has desensitized the American people. Crap, we have people out there (and occasional ones here) who defend these crimes. I mourn…that is all.
April 19th, 2009 at 12:29 amWheeler concludes, “The CIA wants you to believe waterboarding is effective. Yet somehow, it took them 183 applications of the waterboard in a one month period to get what they claimed was cooperation out of KSM. That doesn’t sound very effective to me.”
Wait a minute, didn’t KSM cooperate before they started waterboarding him? Wasn’t it after they waterboarded him (at least 183 times, it would appear) that he started giving them bogus information? Am I wrong, or is Mr. Wheeler the one who has it backwards?
April 19th, 2009 at 12:31 amand a bit of a bad speller.
April 19th, 2009 at 12:31 amone thing i am wondering about, if there will be no prosecutions for the operatives, what will happen to lindy england and cohorts already in prison…?
April 19th, 2009 at 12:32 amOutstandingInAPlagueOfLocusts Says:
Sometimes I hope Obama is giving a pass to the individual folk who participated, while allowing the outcry to build for a trial of those who ordered the abomination. Of course, I am an eternal optomist
April 19th, 2009 at 12:29 am
Sometimes you reel in the really big fish by letting the little fish know they will be bait. Now the little fish have no worries.
I hope there’s some grand plan here. I really do.
April 19th, 2009 at 12:33 amJust give it time people this issue will be revisited but as we know this is a politically motivated move which I think came from the Republicans.
But I agree with Obama, why should we spend an awful lot of time correcting Bush and Cheney’s phuck-ups? All we can do now is move forward and make sure it never happens again?
The whole world knows that Bush and Cheney “tortured” people and lied about it, that will never go away and will always be attached to the Bush and Cheney’s legacy.
April 19th, 2009 at 12:37 amAccording to the international treaty we signed about torture, we can stop other countries from starting their own investigations if we just start one of our own. We should do just that. Besides, every one of us, including President Obama, knows that it is the right thing to do.
April 19th, 2009 at 12:37 amgreen Says:
I refuse to go down the inevitable road of blaming torture on President Obama. We all knew this – little smatterings here and there – more will come out. Bit by sorry bit. This country, our country stopped being my country a long time ago. I can hardly recognize her.
We should be outraged if Obama refuses to investigate Cheney and the whole torture gang, but blaming Obama himself for their crimes is a little nuts. It’s only ‘inevitable’ to the right wing whackjobs.
April 19th, 2009 at 12:38 ambonat,
Just go away. Far away…
April 19th, 2009 at 12:40 amI hope all you conservatives and republicans are proud, regarding the mastermind KSM of 9-11 infamy, if we acted according the Constitution and the law, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed would not only be released immediately, he could literally sue the United States for untold millions for violating his civil rights.
This is what happens when you vote for a moron and corporate criminal.
Remember right wingers, every terrorist arrested and convicted for actions during the Clinton Administration was tried, convicted and either sentenced to life in prison without parole or given the death penalty.
April 19th, 2009 at 12:41 amZooey Says:
I hope there’s some grand plan here. I really do.
As do I. I think the release of the memos without comment is building a consensus to fully investigate this. At least I hope so.
April 19th, 2009 at 12:42 amboner said; as we know this is a politically motivated move which I think came from the Republicans.</
wha….?
April 19th, 2009 at 12:44 ambonat Says:
Just give it time people this issue will be revisited but as we know this is a politically motivated move which I think came from the Republicans.
What politically motivated move do you think came from the republicans? The torture, or the sad attempt to justify it?
April 19th, 2009 at 12:45 amThe only conclusion one can draw from such an elevated number,
is that they had all but given up on discovering any useful information and were simply going through the motions as a sick and cruel form of punishment and retribution.
Judge, jury, and tortuerer.
April 19th, 2009 at 12:51 amEven though Obama should prosecute the Bush criminals without a push from us, I believe he’s trying to signal to the American people to make him do it.
April 19th, 2009 at 12:55 amThe guy was supposedly pretty unstable before the CIA had a go at him. I shudder to imagine his mental state after 183 waterboardings.
April 19th, 2009 at 1:01 amZooey
I never said that at # 24. Someone is abusing this blog.
————————————————–
OutstandingInAPlagueOfLocusts
Both
April 19th, 2009 at 1:08 amI never said that at post # 20. Someone really is trying to abuse the TP blogs. I have already reported it as an abuse violation.
April 19th, 2009 at 1:10 amHuman nature is what it is. Sometimes it’s not pretty.
That is why we have laws. There are numerous reports of how sadistic people can be when they think they can get away with it.
This devolution into sadistic brutality is not unexpected when we elected (smirk) a president, with an emotional IQ that wouldn’t even be a respectable earthquake (W).
Remember though, 47% or so voted for McCain. The truth is too hard to find these days.
April 19th, 2009 at 1:14 ambonat Says:
April 19th, 2009 at 1:18 amZooey
I never said that at # 24. Someone is abusing this blog.
————————————
Please accept my apologies if I answered you harshly without realizing someone else was using your name.
zooey,
I would never say that at post # 24. I worked very,very hard on the “Obama-Bidden” campaign and I still do to this day. Someone is pitting you and myself against each other and are getting a big laugh out of this. I just want TP to investigate this.
April 19th, 2009 at 1:26 amI hope all you conservatives and republicans are proud, regarding the mastermind KSM of 9-11 infamy,
April 19th, 2009 at 1:32 am“““““““““““““““““““““““`
Wait…KSM was the mastermind of 9/11? Or did the Bush administration call him the mastermind after capturing him and allowing Bin Laden to slip away?
OutstandingInAPlagueOfLocusts
Thanks
April 19th, 2009 at 1:36 am1) The documents provide compelling evidence that the Bush Administration planned and approved interrogation techniques that are clearly torture.
2) There is no credible evidence that the use of torture during the Bush Administration ever saved a single American life or prevented a single terrorist plot. Let’s not be naive. Cheney saying so does not make it true.
Some of interrogators themselves have gone public stating that every confession made under the duress of torture proved to be bogus. People will say ANYTHING under these conditions; mostly they will just make stuff up.
Of course, it’s entirely possible that the primary motivation for these abusive practices was vengeance against anyone who resembled or was loosely associated with those who committed the atrocities of 9-11, in which case the Bush regime accomplished its objective.
3) The U.S. signed international agreements and has passed laws, affirmed by the Supreme Court, prohibiting the use of torture during interrogations of detainees. The agreements do not have an asterisk that says “except when it’s done by the U.S. against people that we suspect are bad guys”.
April 19th, 2009 at 1:45 amThis seems like human experimentation to me. Since KSM was considered the worst of the worst, he was chosen to test that absolute limits of this torture on the mind and body.
The only actionable intelligence gleaned from these horror sessions is how to be a better torturer.
April 19th, 2009 at 1:45 amLet’s see. According to the GOP, torture works, but the CIA doesn’t torture. But if they did, it would work and save lives. And lives were saved, but torture wasn’t used. Huuuuuh?
Furthermore, the GOP insists that the CIA interrogation documents are no big deal and are much to do about nothing, yet out of the other side of their mouths they claim that disclosure about interrogation techniques involving “torture” will jeopardize national security.
How can these documents be both trivial and inconsequential and a threat to the nation at the same time? You cannot have it both ways.
April 19th, 2009 at 1:48 amWHOEVER IS USING MY NAME LIKE AT POST # 20 AND #24 ARE RIGHT-WING COWARDS. IS IT THAT YOUR NOT WITTY OR SMART ENOUGH TO DEBATE ME?
AND FOR THE RECORD I’M A STAUNCH ANTI-BUSH, ANTI-FOX NEWS, ANTI-FAR RIGHT-WING CRITIC WHO PROTESTED A LOT OF BUSH’S POLICIES. I ALSO HOPE THAT TP LOOKS INTO THIS ABUSE AS I HAVE REPORTED ON BOTH POSTINGS.
April 19th, 2009 at 1:58 amwisdomofwords Says:
Even though Obama should prosecute the Bush criminals without a push from us, I believe he’s trying to signal to the American people to make him do it.
I think that President Obama has every intention of prosecuting the Bush Crime Family. I believe that they are working on gathering the evidence. In the meantime they are letting this kind of stuff out there so that people will not be up in arms when he announces he is going to prosecute. If he did it without some evidence like he has been leaking, the right wing will be all over him and us by saying he’s playing politics or is into payback. Even a conservative would have a very hard time supporting waterboarding someone 183 times in one month or even saying it works if you have to do it 183 times.
April 19th, 2009 at 2:14 ambonat Says:
I never said that at post # 20. Someone really is trying to abuse the TP blogs. I have already reported it as an abuse violation.
Perhaps you could explain how that happens, since TP only allows one poster at a time to have a particular moniker.
April 19th, 2009 at 2:18 ambonat, #61
Just curious though, is post 40 yours?
April 19th, 2009 at 2:20 amsniff…can anyone smell troll?
April 19th, 2009 at 2:25 amBilbo Hussein Baggins
That’s why I’m not sure how this could have happened. But those are not my words. My first post on this blog was at 12:37 am and not before that. I reported this as an abuse to TP.
This is exactly what someone intended to accomplish simply because they disagreed with some of my postings, so instead of debating me they go and sabotage my name.
April 19th, 2009 at 2:26 amyelena amorbus alternatus vee Says:
bonat, #61
Just curious though, is post 40 yours?
April 19th, 2009 at 2:30 am————————————————-
Yes post # 40 is mine. And I’m not a stinking troll.
ok, if I’m wrong I apologise.
April 19th, 2009 at 2:30 amNamejacking has happened before.
April 19th, 2009 at 2:35 amWhat a waste of potable water……. a good shower head would have been a better investment.
April 19th, 2009 at 3:02 amThe righting is on the wall and only a matter of time. I think Obama is releasing these memos to allow other countries to pursue these neocons for war crimes. Let Spain spend their resources on prosecution. We surely don’t have much cash left after those idiots spent it all on two wars and tax cuts for the fat cats!
Bush and Dick better find a cave to hang out in. Since they seem to be in cahoots with Osama, maybe they can spend a weekend “cave shopping” in Pakistan.
April 19th, 2009 at 3:14 amNamejacking has happened before
in that case bonat, I definitely apologise
April 19th, 2009 at 3:17 amThis country is my country. The Right wing carted it off and perverted it. They have proven that they can not be trusted with. The United States must take a good look at it self. What has happened? Where did these people come from? They can’t be from the same country. This is not the same country I was raised to believe in.
This is enough to make you want to find someplace else to live! What were they trying to prove?
April 19th, 2009 at 3:36 amSo chimpy can invade Iraq, hunts down a head of state, kill civilians and part of Hussein’s family. Then hold a kangaroo court and kill Hussein for past crimes.
What’s the difference between Hussein and chimpy?
April 19th, 2009 at 4:06 amI’m just totally speechless. They did that to someone 183 times in a single month? I do not have the words to express the level of shock I’m in right now. I’m literally on the verge of tears.
Bush, Cheney, and all who aided them should be locked up and never allowed to see the light of day again.
April 19th, 2009 at 5:12 amAnd now the people who made this possible are having tea parties.
Right Will Eat Itself
April 19th, 2009 at 5:19 amProsecute everyone involved with these crimes. Believe me, if Dick Cheney told me to steal a car, it would still be wrong. I would still be arrested and held accountable for my actions. Where have we heard the phrase, “Just following orders”? The Nazis at Nuremberg.
April 19th, 2009 at 5:29 amHugo Chavez was probably right when he stated that was more democracy in Cuba than in the States, at lest more respect for the individual persona.
April 19th, 2009 at 5:42 amSad to see little respect for human beings from the so called freedom fighters.
April 19th, 2009 at 5:50 am
The president is required by international treaties to prosecute these crimes. He has no choice to do otherwise.
By failing to prosecute he places himself in jeopardy of prosecution for the cover-up of war crimes, murder and crimes against humanity.
Mr. Obama has taken an illegal and prosecutable position by failing to investigate and place on trial the people who committed these crimes at every level of the government.
If he does not change his position then I am willing to see him sent to The Hague along with Botch and Dick(head). I am willing to give him a chance to change his mind. If he doesn’t then I say “Off to The Hague with you!!!”
You don’t have a choice Mr. President. You either prosecute or you participate. It’s that godamned easy to understand.
April 19th, 2009 at 6:33 amMight I add that this is also a violation of the oath of office for President too. Which is impeachable.
Mr. Obama. Wise up. Stop being stupid.
April 19th, 2009 at 6:36 amslippery Says:
You are a sick ignorant punkass troll. Do the world a favor and go kill yourself
April 19th, 2009 at 7:24 amOH THE HORROR!
April 19th, 2009 at 7:38 amdixie,
did you miss the 60 minutes piece with the guy that is at GTMO right now saying he’s been “tortured” many times since Obama has been elected?
April 19th, 2009 at 7:39 amLet’s see if terrorists had their choice- 1. head cut off with sword, or 2. box with a catapillar? Mmmmm, let’s see? Or maybe we should give them massages and pedicures.
April 19th, 2009 at 7:42 amaplbotm Says:
OH THE HORROR!
<<<<<<<<<
Oh the moron is back. Get ready to laugh people the free clown show is here. You wont BELIEVE how stupid this one is
April 19th, 2009 at 7:48 amaplbotm Says:
Got some evidence they are terrorists? Of course you dont. You are a cowardly punk who doesnt care in the least for truth facts or reality and just spew your ignorant propaganda. What YOU were programmed with because you are stupid and you let rightwing screechmonkeys do your thinking for you. How pathetic you are. I would be embarassed to be as stupid as you are. Not to mention such a weasel with no understanding of the concept of decency. Here is the thing. Just because YOU have no soul and no brain doesnt mean the rest of us want to enter Dantes fifth circle of hell and be anything like you. So why dont you stop embarassing yourself and go away while the adults talk
April 19th, 2009 at 7:52 amHey Eugene
You are real tough on this site, huh? I can only imagine you in person. Even the Pres says they are terrorists. You probably would pee your pants with a catapillar too. I am sure all the lovely people here on TP find your hateful spews as disgusting as I do.
April 19th, 2009 at 7:56 amThe president and the DOJ must go after the truth and prosecute. The former president who executed more individuals in Texas than anyone in history and who put firecrackers in small animals to blow them up for fun as a child, is a criminal.
April 19th, 2009 at 8:08 amfirst of all, all the professionals tell us they get far more information when they don’t rely on torture, far more actionable and far more useful
second of all, even if there were information gathered through a particular episode of torture, for every person you torture you’ve turned all of their family, all of their friends into enemies and terrorists, you’ve created more terrorists, more events, and you’ve helped them perpetuate their cause
and third, even if someone was sympathetic to your cause, once they found out you have policies of torture you have lost not only their sympathy, you have also turned away any person who might have come forward voluntarily with information
there can be no doubt we’ve lost information because of Cheney/bush/Rumsfeld policies of torture
you have also given our enemies justification to torture our civilians and soldiers, and while there would have been torture regardless, it will now increase exponentially
here’s the most depraved part;
they knew all the facts I’ve just written, they knew with no doubt they would be creating terrorists and events
they knew with no doubt the only purpose for policies of torture is to perpetuate an insurgency
they accomplished their goals, they are depraved sociopaths
April 19th, 2009 at 8:12 amHow about just giving them a trial?
April 19th, 2009 at 8:20 amlet’s see if WE had a choice;
“hmmm, get MORE information and save lives, get LESS information, create MORE terrorirsts, create MORE events, turn the planet against us.
hmmmm
what to do”
it is funny how these morons try to justify the destruction of our national security, our influence in international affairs, our ability to fight terrorism
simply amazing
April 19th, 2009 at 8:31 amaplbotm Says:
I dont really care what you think TROLL. Until they are convicted they are accused moron. No one in this country is guilty of a crime until 12 people say so. Is that so hard for you to understand? You are a coward and a punk. You like the thought of torture because you are a sick piece of garbage and it is the only way to get your useless little thingy hard. You make jokes about torture because you are a disgusting moron. Just go away and let the adults talk YOU are too stupid to be believed.
April 19th, 2009 at 8:34 amin addition, there are definatley innocent people who were tortured, obviously their entire family becomes terrorists along with every one of their friends
the administration knew that, they began their policies of torture so that there would be everlasting unrest in the middle east, that was their very puporse
bush actually said he’s going to make it so the next administration cannot leave iraq
and there obama is, doing just that
April 19th, 2009 at 8:47 amQuestion: The Obama administration knew these facts and still came out against prosecuting those who performed the torture. Are we to believe that “they were just following orders” can trump the knowledge of basic human decency? That after waterboarding one, two, ten, twenty, one hundred times they are still protected by illegal, immoral “orders”?
No. Holder’s DOJ needs to go after those who authorized and those who provided the legal justification, but they also need to go after those who conducted torture 6 times/day for a month.
This whole chapter is my country’s history makes me sick. Truly sick.
PEACE
April 19th, 2009 at 8:57 amIf they waterboarded high level suspects like a “Al Qaeda mastermind” 183 times in one month the question is..
How often did they torture hundreds of unimportant most likely innocent suspects who were just kidnapped and locked away for years without due process? Were they just waterboarded 2-4 times a month? Or maybe they were treated kindly and only kept awake for days, sexually abused and humiliated, repeatedly thrown against the wall, harassed, slapped, beaten etc etc
April 19th, 2009 at 9:04 amWhy 183? Why not just round it off at an even 200? We were way too nice to those animals. There should have been executions.
April 19th, 2009 at 9:05 amto spencer’s mom
obama is not only just as guilty as bush, he is more guilty, he has acknowledged these crimes, he is bound by his the law and his oath to prosecute these criminals, if he does not he is CERTAINLY a criminal along side them
April 19th, 2009 at 9:06 amI have to wonder if Pelosi is still happy she decided to take impeachment off the table. I blame her and any other Dems who supported that decision for any and all crimes committed since January 2007. They could have made a difference, they could have stopped further crimes and deaths, but they chose not to do anything.
PEACE
April 19th, 2009 at 9:10 amto galmud
that’s a good question but the real question is;
1)how much information did they lose by using tactics like torture we know as a fact yield less information
2)we know data gained through torture is not nearly as actionable as that gained with our other methods, how many assets were wasted tracking down data gained through torture that had no value, how many events could have been prevented tracking the better information we would have gathered
3) how many new events did we create by having policies of torture
4) how many new insurgents did we help recruit with this policy
5) how many soldiers, how many civilians will be tortured now that bush/cheney has set the new bar
April 19th, 2009 at 9:13 am10hourday Says:
Why 183? Why not just round it off at an even 200? We were way too nice to those animals. There should have been executions.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Executions AFTER a fair trial and conviction I wouldnt have complained about. If you meant summary executions then you too are a cowardly punk who would destroy our values so you could feel better about yourself as you cowered under your mommy’s bed like the gutless wonder you are.
April 19th, 2009 at 9:15 ambonat Says:
But I agree with Obama, why should we spend an awful lot of time correcting Bush and Cheney’s phuck-ups? All we can do now is move forward and make sure it never happens again?
The whole world knows that Bush and Cheney “tortured” people and lied about it, that will never go away and will always be attached to the Bush and Cheney’s legacy.
April 19th, 2009 at 12:37 am
_____________
Let me offer an analogy.
Let’s just say you had a daughter. A bright, beautiful girl of five years old. And let’s say your next door neighbor broke into your house one night and brutally raped and sodomized your daughter and then strangled her with a tube sock.
And let’s say your neighbor left a signed note before climbing back out of the house saying “I, your neighbor, have just strangled your daughter. I believe this act was justified, and I offer no apology for this action.”
Would you want to just move forward? Would you be satisfied merely with the knowledge that your daughter’s brutal murder was attached to your neighbor’s legacy? I mean, you’re really busy, right? You don’t have time to go seeking justice.
Why is torture any different?
April 19th, 2009 at 9:15 amThis is the one issue that could bring the Obama administration down. If he doesn’t go after the bush thugs, and just lets them off the hook, Obama will be a one term President. He will lose a good chunk of his base, and the repugs will be hovering around to pick at the bones. No matter how hard it is, Obama and congress must bring these pigs to justice.
April 19th, 2009 at 9:17 amKhalid Sheikh Mohammed survived…how many didn’t?
April 19th, 2009 at 9:17 amspencers mom
she cannot possibly have believed the administration would not have been convicted in a trial of impeachment, it is brutally clear these despots would have not even subjected themselves to expose the depravity and they would have resigned
I have no doubt in my mind she feels had some kind of blackmail against her and her family
possibly because she was informed of the torture policies and did nothing, thereby being just as guilty, possilby a skeletoon in her closet
never the less had she been the women I thought she was she would have fallen on her sword and done what needed to be done to secure the security of this nation, she WOULD have removed these despots from office
the only blackmail I might forgive pelosi would be if these despots guaranteed a nuclear catastrophe if she proceeded, that to me would justify her doing what she did
but that’s about it
April 19th, 2009 at 9:17 amperris Says: He is more guilty…
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I would agree with you that Obama is just as guilty but to say he is more guilty, nope I don’t believe that. No one can be as guilty as those who originally committed these crimes.
Like I’ve said in the past, right or wrong. I knew Obama or the democrats wouldn’t investigate the Bush administration for war crimes because they don’t want to further tarnish the sanctity of the presidency or hurt America’s image even more by putting a former president on trial for war crimes. It’s just never going to happen. It is of course wrong and I am angered by Obama’s choice to look forward instead of going after Bush for torture, illegal surveillance and other crimes.
Author Vincent Builigosi mailed out his book on Bush crimes to every county prosecutor in the country. So maybe one of them will see this as a opportunity to make a name for themselves some day???
April 19th, 2009 at 9:19 amEugene atrax robustus Debs
Of course they should be tried before execution. We do not want to lower ourselves to the level of the radical’s who behead innocent civilians.
April 19th, 2009 at 9:20 amtoasterhead, let’s give you the real analogy
suppose you knew if you someone not associated would cause even more people to torture innocent people, what would you do then?
you have fallen for the false alternative, there is NO reason for government resort to the policies that make it impossible to prevail, NONE
now please stop promoting those methods that cause more innocents the pleasure of this depravity you justify with your false alternatives
I retire for the day, have a good sunday all
April 19th, 2009 at 9:21 amCIA’s director, General Michael V. Hayden, issued a statement disclosing that in 2005 at least two videotapes of interrogations with al Qaeda prisoners were destroyed.
One of the tapes was Abu Zubaydah, the top ranking terror suspect when he was tracked and captured in Pakistan in 2003.
According to Gerald Posner,one investigator told about the “Rosetta Stone” of 9/11, Zubaydah laid out details of how he and the al Qaeda hierarchy had been supported at high levels inside the Saudi and Pakistan governments.
He named two other Saudi princes, and also the chief of Pakistan’s air force, as his major contacts. Moreover, he stunned his interrogators, by charging that two of the men, the King’s nephew, and the Pakistani Air Force chief, KNEW a major terror operation was planned for America on 9/11.
All four identified by Zubaydah are now dead.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gerald-posner/the-cias-destroyed-inter_b_75850.html
A Special Prosecutor MAY be looking into MORE that Torture Memos
April 19th, 2009 at 9:22 amperris Says:
to spencer’s mom
obama is not only just as guilty as bush, he is more guilty, he has acknowledged these crimes, he is bound by his the law and his oath to prosecute these criminals, if he does not he is CERTAINLY a criminal along side them
Perris, much as it pains me to do so, I agree that if Obama does nothing to investigate and prosecute those who authorized torture, those who provided the legal cover for torture and even those in the highest offices who knew about the torture but remained silent, he is as guilty as the rest.
But, I also trust my new president and will allow this to play out according the a plan I am certain he has. I beleive that he is laying out the case to the American people as to why we must go after the senior officials of the past admin, and not take the coward’s way out as they did. Obama and Holder will not prosecute the Lyndie Englands and call it closed, rather they appear to be offering immunity to those who will testify as to the chain of command. And I’d bet money that even Rumsfeld would flip rather than be tried.
I will not be satisfied until Bush, Cheney, Addington, Feith, Yoo, Rumsfeld and others are convicted.
PEACE
April 19th, 2009 at 9:22 amThe US government/military had Japanese soldiers, guards etc, put to death for water boarding our soldiers who were prisoners of war during WWII. END OF STORY.
April 19th, 2009 at 9:23 amlet’s hope he mailed the pertinent excerps, they will not have time to read the entire work
April 19th, 2009 at 9:24 amUncle Fester Lurks Says:
The US government/military had Japanese soldiers, guards etc, put to death for water boarding our soldiers who were prisoners of war during WWII. END OF STORY.
This is complete bs.
April 19th, 2009 at 9:25 amperris Says:
you have fallen for the false alternative, there is NO reason for government resort to the policies that make it impossible to prevail, NONE
now please stop promoting those methods that cause more innocents the pleasure of this depravity you justify with your false alternatives
I retire for the day, have a good sunday all
April 19th, 2009 at 9:21 am
___________
I believe you mis-read my analogy. I was referring to the need to prosecute the individuals who conducted and ordered the torture of terrorism suspects. I was not referring to the terrorism suspects themselves.
April 19th, 2009 at 9:27 amBadger Says:
One of the tapes was Abu Zubaydah, the top ranking terror suspect when he was tracked and captured in Pakistan in 2003.
According to Gerald Posner,one investigator told about the “Rosetta Stone” of 9/11, Zubaydah laid out details of how he and the al Qaeda hierarchy had been supported at high levels inside the Saudi and Pakistan governments.
April 19th, 2009 at 9:22 am
____________
And from what I read in Jane Meyer’s The Dark Side, this information was all obtained by the FBI, before the CIA came in, started torturing him, and turned him into a complete basket case.
April 19th, 2009 at 9:29 am10hourday Says:
Of course they should be tried before execution. We do not want to lower ourselves to the level of the radical’s who behead innocent civilians.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Exactly so. Sorry I misread your intent. I would have no problem whatsoever with treating them like criminals and punishing them according to the law.
April 19th, 2009 at 9:29 amAs for Hayden and others to make the claim that torture worked, what did we expect him to say? Of course he is going to say they got valuable information other wise the program would be a proven failure.
For those on the right who make the hypothetical claim that “if your son or daughter would be killed by a terrorist attack that could be prevented by getting such information out of a suspected terrorist wouldn’t you be for it?”
This defense of torture rings hollow. The former president had all kinds of information regarding terrorist attacks before 9/11 and ignored them. The former administration relied on phony intelligence from “Curveball” in regard to Iraq. Torture is wrong and unreliable.
April 19th, 2009 at 9:30 amI have forgotten why Dubya and Cheney thought Saddam was such a bad guy. It seems to me they must have been envious of what he was able to do over there so they had to go so they could do much of the same. This is the most outragious thing I have ever learned about my country. If someone doesn’t spend a long time in jail, there is no United States left.
April 19th, 2009 at 9:32 am10hourday Says:
This is complete bs.
April 19th, 2009 at 9:25 am
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html
April 19th, 2009 at 9:32 amBecause in the end, you will find that this torture is not about intelligence gathering, or ticking bombs or any other such nonsense. It is a talisman. A talisman of power. A government that can torture and do it with impunity can do anything. No law stands in its way. The very idea of the rule of law crumbles into dust. It means brutal tyranny.
This is the real reason why Limbaugh, Coulter, O’Reilly, and their wannabees get all hot and bothered about the idea of torture.
April 19th, 2009 at 9:34 am10hourday Says:
Uncle Fester Lurks Says:
The US government/military had Japanese soldiers, guards etc, put to death for water boarding our soldiers who were prisoners of war during WWII. END OF STORY.
This is complete bs.
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Oh really!?!
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/29/politics/main3554687.shtml
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html
April 19th, 2009 at 9:35 amAt least we found out how he downed Amelia Earhart, where Jimmy Hoffa is buried and where The Arc of the Covenant is being preserved.
This will do much to keep America safe.
April 19th, 2009 at 9:35 amI think it’s even more depraved, I believe it’s a sexual fantasy watching pain or knowing they’re responsible for it
April 19th, 2009 at 9:35 am10hourday Says:
Uncle Fester Lurks Says:
The US government/military had Japanese soldiers, guards etc, put to death for water boarding our soldiers who were prisoners of war during WWII. END OF STORY.
This is complete bs.
=========================================================
This is an example of wingnuts not getting facts on FAUX.
April 19th, 2009 at 9:39 am” the real reason why Limbaugh, Coulter, O’Reilly, and their wannabees get all hot and bothered about the idea of torture.”
is they how ZERO respect for human life if it isn’t white and christian.
April 19th, 2009 at 9:42 am*have
April 19th, 2009 at 9:42 am10hourday, you must be a republican, if so your denial of Japanese being hanged for waterboarding US soldiers doesn’t surprise me as it seems many republicans do not know much about history and what they think they know is usually wrong at least in my experience with them.
Here are a few examples of republican history told to me by a few republican friends or republican family members:
1-The constitution was written before the revolutionary war.
2-The revolutionary war was fought because of the constitution.
3-Alexander Hamilton was a US President because his image is on the $10.00 bill. (Ben Franklin’s image is on the $100.00 bill was he a US president?)
4-FDR dropped the atomic bombs on Japan. (That is one hell of a trick considering FDR was dead at the time.)
5-Bill Clinton is responsible for the US barracks truck bombing in Beirut. (Um…that happened under Reagan in 1983)
Stupid republicans…
April 19th, 2009 at 9:43 amUncle Fester Lurks Says:
The US government/military had Japanese soldiers, guards etc, put to death for water boarding our soldiers who were prisoners of war during WWII. END OF STORY.
Re-read the article you posted. It clearly does not state that any Japanese prisoners were executed for water boarding. It states that prisoners were “convicted” based on water boarding. No Japanese war criminals were executed for anything other than murder of prisoners of war. Read some history before spreading bs. Now, you could have just stated that the U.S. Govt. had Japanese guards imprisoned for water boarding. That would be accurate.
April 19th, 2009 at 9:43 amUS Marines barracks in Beirut…
April 19th, 2009 at 9:45 amperris Says:
the only blackmail I might forgive pelosi would be if these despots guaranteed a nuclear catastrophe if she proceeded, that to me would justify her doing what she did
but that’s about it
If Pelosi was threatened with nuclear holocaust if she went public with what she knew then she is even more guilty of taking impeachment of treasons war criminals off the table.
There was no justification for summarily announcing that impeachment wasn’t an option when crimes were known at that time. Lives could have been saved, so Pelosi has blood on her hands.
PEACE
April 19th, 2009 at 9:45 am“Republican presidential candidate John McCain reminded people Thursday that some Japanese were tried and hanged for torturing American prisoners during World War II with techniques that included waterboarding.”
from the article entitled :
McCain:Japanese hanged for waterboarding.
can’t parse those those words skippy
April 19th, 2009 at 9:46 amI supported and believed the waterboarding policies had a purpose to prevent future terror attacks.
I was under the impression that the use of the waterboarding was limited to known terrorists and also limited to a few incidents, because it was relatively effective at getting the subjects to reveal future plans.
I eventually agreed with the position here that waterboarding was torture and that America shouldn’t be doing it.
If we really need to waterboard someone 183 times, it seems to be an indication that the technique is not that effective or that it is being administered for a purpose other than attaining information.
The problems with waterboarding or torture is that it’s objectionable even if you could get valuable information from it. Additionally, there are serious doubts about whether the information you get has value or is only deceptive distraction.
I trust Obama to make the right call. But, the calls to investigate the practice make sense, if you want to insure we don’t continue a practice that diminishes our reputation for questionable results.
April 19th, 2009 at 9:56 am10hourday Says: ]
Well they DID imprison Japanese soldiers for waterboarding also an American sherrif was sentenced to ten years in prison for waterboarding and we courtmartialed a US soldier in Vietnam for just being PRESENT while the South Vietnamese waterboarded a prisoner.
April 19th, 2009 at 9:56 am10hourday,
it’s relatively simple DO try to follow:
1)waterboarding is a big no-no according to the geneva conventions, it is defined as torture.
2)the united states are signators of the geneva convention
3)therefore the united states should not waterboard.
pretty simple, no?
April 19th, 2009 at 9:59 am10hourday Says:
Re-read the article you posted. It clearly does not state that any Japanese prisoners were executed for water boarding. It states that prisoners were “convicted” based on water boarding. No Japanese war criminals were executed for anything other than murder of prisoners of war. Read some history before spreading bs. Now, you could have just stated that the U.S. Govt. had Japanese guards imprisoned for water boarding. That would be accurate.
April 19th, 2009 at 9:43 am
_____________
So you admit that you were wrong. It was not “total bs.”
April 19th, 2009 at 10:02 amThere should have been executions.
April 19th, 2009 at 10:08 am—
How would that change the past?
spencers butterfly mom Says:
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There lies the other problem. Pelosi, Jane Harmen and other democrats were informed about torture. To go after the Bush administration on torture would also implicate some democrats.
This I believe is why Pelosi really took impeachment off of the table and another reason why Obama has decided to look forward. They are protecting Pelosi and other democrats asses. Perhaps this is being done in a form of blackmailing President Obama? Maybe he has been told if he pursues any investigation he will not get the backing of key democrats on his policies??????
April 19th, 2009 at 10:08 amRight wing rethugs justify torture because they think America is blessed by god, and we know what happens when people think god is on their side. History is full of torture, murder and mayhem by people and countries who thought god was on their side. It allows them to justify anything, because it becomes in their minds, the battle of good over evil.
April 19th, 2009 at 10:08 am183 times? That doesn’t sound like a good faith reliance to me. How many interrogators were involved in KSM’s waterboarding? Who kept track of each event and its corresponding impact?
I find it hard to believe some CIA interrogators didn’t found the legal justification disturbing, based on their past training. Panetta/Obama’s free pass to CIA staff is shameless. I would say unAmerican, but that bar fell years ago.
April 19th, 2009 at 10:11 amWait one minute here, I thought “they” said that Khalid sheik mohammed “Broke” after three minutes. And I also thought “they” said that they only waterboarded three prisoners.
LIARS!
And let’s not forget all the other lies they told us about how we got so far into this mess, the WMD, AlQueda connections to Iraq, Iraqi Nukes, etc.etc. And alwo all the Cover your ass hemming and hawing of the Bush Administration about how they couldn’t possibly have forseen an attack on the WTC. What a group of power hungry and greedy incompetents we had running this country.
April 19th, 2009 at 10:12 amNEVER AGAIN!
Would the goal of an investigation be to punish those responsible (or involved) with the waterboarding, or review the policy and prevent it in the future? Or both?
April 19th, 2009 at 10:12 amangels81 Says:
April 19th, 2009 at 10:15 am“““““““““““““““““““““““““““
It’s funny you mention this. I recently saw the Mel Gibson movie “Apocalypto” about the Mayans and their sacrifices of men from other villages. The scene of the sacrifices on the alter where they beheaded the prisoners and then bounced their heads and bodies down the steps, their citizens cheering was so surreal…it kind of reminded me of the religious right in this country and what things could be like if they were in total control of our country.
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times in March 2003
This boggles the mind. That Americans could repeatedly force someone to submit to simulated drowning, for whatever supposedly worthy goal, mocks our beliefs and values. There can be no defense for putting a human being into such a near-constant state of pain and fear, for a country that calls itself free. The agents must also be punished, its now abundantly clear. Perhaps he did give up what small bit of information he had after a few sessions, but when the extracted information became contradictory (as it surely must have, given the decision to repeat the torture so many times), the agents should have seen the tactic wasn’t working, and stopped using it.
183 times in a month looks more like retribution than intelligence-gathering.
April 19th, 2009 at 10:18 ambackup Says:
Would the goal of an investigation be to punish those responsible (or involved) with the waterboarding, or review the policy and prevent it in the future? Or both?
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In my opinion anyone who participated in or knew about the torture should all be punished for it.
I imagine those who want an investigation want both as this is a dark stain on our country.
April 19th, 2009 at 10:18 amI guarantee that if any actionable intelligence resulted from any torture conducted by, or on behalf of, the United States, Cheney and his ilk would be on every news show available in order to justify their actions.
And what was it that made them stop at 183? This is the epitome of sadism, not coercion.
President Obama, please know that We the People are demanding justice. Don’t put us in the impossible position of working so hard to elect you only to need to call for your impeachment.
PEACE
April 19th, 2009 at 10:18 amIf the Christian right were left unchecked in this country, it would become a lot like a fundamentalist Islamic theocracy. Maybe without the beards or burkas.
April 19th, 2009 at 10:19 amThe only thing that separates the extremists on the religious right from the Islamic extremists is that those on the religious right haven’t chopped off any heads….yet.
April 19th, 2009 at 10:21 amassuming this information is accurate, I agree. At some point way before 183, you come to the conclusion that it wasn’t working.
April 19th, 2009 at 10:23 amIf the Christian right were left unchecked in this country, it would become a lot like a fundamentalist Islamic theocracy. Maybe without the beards or burkas.
I don’t think so. Without a counterbalancing “them” (us) to hate, they would begin an intermidable round of “holier than thou,” that would further fracture the movement.
April 19th, 2009 at 10:26 amWe are now, documentedly, no better than the Nazis.
The myriad justifications, the theory of ‘the good guys’ (which the Germans fully believed of themselves too,) the American exceptionalism theory, which Germany not only fully embraced, but it is very likely what landed America in the moral snake pit it now finds itself, and the christianist notion of a religious mission at any cost; all stand absolutely irrelevant.
We have indulged in the most craven acts from the darkest corners that are the sole domain of totalitarian regimes, serial murderers, religious inquisitions in dank cellars and monstrous movie villains; particularly when the script calls for some justifiable excuse for an exceptionally unpleasant end.
Now, however, we’re immersed in the self-deluding rhetoric that past empires have propped up to maintain their eroding foundations on the shifting moral sands of circumstantial righteousness. Trotting out the intellectual cowardice of reasoned specious denial, ambiguity and relativism, even inventing asinine scenarios to tailor the justification to the end policy.
Greenwald devastates these canards that are being used even by Obama himself to excuse the inexcusable:
Despite the endless evidence that torture does not work, that it puts our military at extreme risk, and that is decimates any claim America has to moral anything, much less that it compromises our negotiations at every table worldwide, the U.S. promotes the same tired, self-centered excuses that pointedly didn’t ‘hold water’ at Nuremberg.
And after clear-cutting the forest of bullsh¡t that our ‘representatives’ use to evade and avoid confronting America’s ‘inner nazi,’ Greenwald sums up our double standard of operation:
We are not the good guys. Not until we imprison the bush administration and anyone involved with these crimes can we rebuild our reality to reconcile with our vaunted illusions. We’ve signed treaty after treaty stating these actions are wrong and inexcusable.
Trying to justify it only makes US more horrific and graspingly pathetic.
(Greenwald’s entire column on this is a must read!)
April 19th, 2009 at 10:27 amMaybe they just should of taken a very dull knife…and slowly started to cut his head off on national TV? It most likely would have saved time and precious water resources in getting information from him?
Just saying.
April 19th, 2009 at 10:27 amRealityCheck:
April 19th, 2009 at 10:29 amWould you like to explain why that idiotic idea might be something that should have been considered?
Uncle Fester. The Christian right is intolerant. Left unchecked, I think they would gravitate towards the more remarkable intolerance of fundamentalist Islamic theocracy. But, what is preventing that, is moderate or progressive voices that resist Christian theocracy.
I think what really separates the two, is the lack of vocal opposition by moderate or progressive Muslim voices.
April 19th, 2009 at 10:31 am154. RealityCheck Says: Maybe they just should of taken a very dull knife…and slowly started to cut his head off on national TV? It most likely would have saved time and precious water resources in getting information from him?
But it sucks for follow-up questions.
Idiot.
April 19th, 2009 at 10:32 amRealityCheck Says:
Maybe they just should of taken a very dull knife…and slowly started to cut his head off on national TV? It most likely would have saved time and precious water resources in getting information from him?
Let’s see: did that happen before or after we invaded Iraq? Wouldn’t Pearl also be alive, if Bush had never invaded?
April 19th, 2009 at 10:33 amRealityCheck. I know what you’re saying.
But, America shouldn’t be using Al Qaeda as a benchmark.
April 19th, 2009 at 10:34 amReality Check,
You saw the effect that the mistreatment and Murder of Richard Perle and others HAD on the American People. It may them EVEN MORE RESOLVED to defeat Al Qaeda.
So… why is it so hard for you to Understand the Effect that Waterboarding and the Mistreatment at Abu Gharaib Prison had on the Islamic World??
April 19th, 2009 at 10:36 amBadger. That’s a great point.
April 19th, 2009 at 10:37 amBadger….correction it was Dan Pearl. I don’t believe a tear would be shed if someone beheaded the evil Richard Perle. ;)
April 19th, 2009 at 10:40 amThere lies the other problem. Pelosi, Jane Harmen and other democrats were informed about torture. To go after the Bush administration on torture would also implicate some democrats.
BIG FCUKIN DEAL.
This isn’t a partisan issue, it’s the reputation of the United States we’re trying to revive.
Politics be damned. I say, throw the entire bunch of corrupt piles of shit in the Hague.
April 19th, 2009 at 10:41 amAnd just wait until these patriotic Americans retire, and move into your city, or neighborhood?
“How long do you plan on keeping my daughter out tonight?”
“Until ten, sir.”
“And where are you going?”
“To a movie, sir”
“Good, wholesome picture, I hope.”
“That’s what the advertisement said, sir.”
“Are you… sure?”
“Yes, sir.”
“Well, you’re a good boy, and I’d like to believe you… Say, come with me to the basement for a second, I’ve got something to show you…”
“Of course, sir.”
April 19th, 2009 at 10:43 amThe point lost in all of this is we invaded a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 or terrorism. Every atrocity that has happened since by our government/military and by Al Qaida can be directly attributed to the US invasion and occupation of Iraq.
April 19th, 2009 at 10:43 amDNFP Says:
April 19th, 2009 at 10:45 am““““““““““““““““““““““““““
That was my point DNFP. I was just pointing out why nothing will be done. Members of both parties are guilty of allowing this and all involved should be put on trial.
Backup @ 135
April 19th, 2009 at 10:46 amQuite the post . Being intellectually honest and open to drawing new conclusions as new facts come forward is the hallmark of true intelligence, a fact lost on the dogmatist and our previous President .
I applaud you .
*perks up* /popcorn
April 19th, 2009 at 10:47 amOh the Jara , the Jara …….. Victor Jara
April 19th, 2009 at 10:51 amKhalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times because the first 182 times he said he was working for Cheney.
April 19th, 2009 at 11:20 amWay to move the discussion forward slippery
April 19th, 2009 at 11:54 amGodd one…
10hourday Says:
Of course they should be tried before execution. We do not want to lower ourselves to the level of the radical’s who behead innocent civilians.
Too late, sweetheart. We’ve already murdered millions of innocent civilians – dead is dead, eh?
April 19th, 2009 at 11:57 ambackup Says:
I think what really separates the two, is the lack of vocal opposition by moderate or progressive Muslim voices.
So, backup – where is the “vocal opposition by moderate or progressive CHRISTIANS” against the wingnuttery of the extreme right wing Christian Taliban…?
April 19th, 2009 at 11:59 amslippery Says:
against the wingnuttery of the extreme right wing Christian Taliban…
Boo!
Typing, and snake-handling? Aren’t you supposed to be saying something in Babble-on-ian?
Hek-a-mek-a-shek-a-something-or-other?
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It turns the stomach. These are guys we shouldn’t feel pity for. But that’s what our own policies engender.
http://www.pufferfishblog.com/
April 19th, 2009 at 12:36 pmMohammed is one of 7 detainees who was tortured so much their now insane. Yes Mohmmand did give us information of the mmurders he did. He finnally admitted he killed Abraham Lincolna and John F. Kennedy. So the CIA can now closed the books on those unsolved murderes. Now as for the 20th Highjacker for 9/11. He was captured in 2002 in Yemem, questioned and released. The information he gave wasn’t believable. 3 weeks later the CIA found out he was telling the truth but they couldn’t fine him as he was somewhere in Pakistan. After Cheney leaked CIA Covert Agent Plame’s name we had no informtion in Iran and hired a young Journalist who worked for Fox News to be a spy. The CIA lost 2/3 of the CIA Covert Agents as they resigned in fear the Bush Administration would leak their ID too.
April 19th, 2009 at 1:49 pmWhen it comes to torture, Israel and America are one. On second thought, Israel is #1 and America is #2.
http://www.brusselstribunal.org/IsraelDeathSquadsIraq.htm#israel2
April 19th, 2009 at 2:05 pmThat averages out to 1 waterboarding every 4 hours! That is insane. Was there no supervision of events at Gitmo?
We have an international Red Cross for a reason. We need them for oversight. The criminal element can never again be allowed to take over government operations in this country. This is a matter to be addressed at The Hague.
April 19th, 2009 at 2:19 pmAnnie. you’ve got a point. I think Christians are held in check in the West by moderates and progressives, but they are not necessarily Christians.
Where is the equivalent of the moderates and progressives to keep fundamentalist Muslims in check?
Chrisitan intolerance is wrong and we should work against it. But, I have the impression that fundamentalist Islamic intolerance is even more troubling and prevalent. Is that wrong?
April 19th, 2009 at 3:07 pm183 times?!?! what a waste. should of put a bullet in his head and saved some water.
April 19th, 2009 at 3:24 pmbackup Says:
I think what really separates the two, is the lack of vocal opposition by moderate or progressive Muslim voices.
April 19th, 2009 at 10:31 am
__________
I’m so sick of seeing this bullshit talking point. Do you need every progressive and/or moderate Muslim in the world to personally call you to voice his/her opposition to terrorism?
There ARE voices of opposition to terrorism. They write about it in Arabic and Urdu and Persian and Indonesian newspapers all the time. The fact that YOU don’t make the effort to see them doesn’t mean that they don’t exist.
April 19th, 2009 at 3:26 pm186. hp Says: Do you need every progressive and/or moderate Muslim in the world to personally call you to voice his/her opposition to terrorism?
No. One would be nice.
Wow. Doubtless you’re so starved for company that you solicit strangers on a progressive blog. “Please, somebody call me,” while you stare at the phone….the silent, silent phone…
creepy…
April 19th, 2009 at 3:57 pmtoasterhead. There are moderate Muslim voices that oppose Islamic fundamentalism. you’re right.
Am I wrong when I characterize the intolerance of fundamentalist Islam more extreme or more prevalent than Christian intolerance?
If there is a difference in the degree, what causes the difference?
I’m on board all day long when people want to highlight Christian intolerance in an effort to curb it.
But, I find some truth to argument that Christians aren’t honor killing young women or homosexuals. We aren’t trying to legalize marital rape. Christians aren’t beheading non-Christians. It’s not a crime in the West to be a non-Christian. Or to shave your beard or leave your burka at home. I’m sure there are more examples.
I am not a Christian. I find Christian intolerance objectionable . But, in terms of intolerance, it seems the lesser of evils by comparison to examples of intolerance in Islamic fundamentalism.
Maybe the differences can’t be chalked up to a lack of moderate Muslim voices. But then, what is it?
April 19th, 2009 at 4:03 pmhp Says:
Do you need every progressive and/or moderate Muslim in the world to personally call you to voice his/her opposition to terrorism?
No. One would be nice.
Never happen
April 19th, 2009 at 4:30 pmHi RealityCheck
April 19th, 2009 at 5:36 pmSucks to be you…
Heehee! Great!
I hope the water was fluridated too!
April 19th, 2009 at 10:52 pmhp Says:
No. One would be nice.
We aim to please. Feel free to use my Googles any time.
.
backup Says:
Chrisitan intolerance is wrong and we should work against it. But, I have the impression that fundamentalist Islamic intolerance is even more troubling and prevalent. Is that wrong?
It’s more prevalent at the moment, but that’s the sort of thing that fluctuates back and forth. Pointing at someone else for misbehaving doesn’t excuse your misbehavior.
Generally speaking though, I think that groups who sympathize with the general goals and aims of a terrorist while being against their methods have a hard time knowing just what to say, or just how loud to say it. If nothing else, complaining about that is not their highest priority. I haven’t heard any fundamentalist Christians vocally opposing abortion clinic bombings. I’m sure many of them are against it, but it’s not like they’re going to go to the trouble of vocally protesting it.
April 20th, 2009 at 12:13 amTORTURE IN ‘60S SOUTH SHOWS ERROR OF WATERBOARDING
By Tom Gardner
When I read about the increasing acceptance of waterboarding as a form of torture, I vividly recall how in 1968 members of the Memphis Police Department believed I could tell them information about civil rights insurgents arriving to create havoc. Forty years later I still hide my serrated scars.
I was 14 years old and forgot I was a black boy living in racist America and heading for the devil’s den of discrimination. Jack Kerouac’s “On the Road” stimulated my raging hormones for truth, justice, and the American way. Like the main character in his book, I stuck out my thumb for a ride from my home in Wisconsin. I was so excited when someone pulled over for me that I went in the wrong direction. After hitchhiking the rest of the way from Milwaukee to Memphis, Tenn., with no trouble, I put out my thumb for the last ride to my grandfather’s place. I was sure he could take me to demonstrate alongside Martin Luther King Jr. to support his recently announced policy on poverty and Southeast Asia.
“Boy, where you from?” asked the toothpick-sucking officer in the passenger seat as his partner walked around the car to me. At the station Tennessee police officers beat me because I was a threat to the status quo of time-honored Uncle Tom behavior. In retrospect I would have kept the king’s English to myself, shuffled my feet, and goggled my eyes in adherence to the South’s renowned sacred social rule for young black bucks.
The physical and verbal abuse heaped upon me caused several broken bones in my body and several dozen switches on my 14-year-old skull. I guess these seven policemen were trying to protect the good citizens of Memphis from more of the Rev. King’s peaceful demonstrations. Between the baton blows to my body and over my screams of youth and innocence, their loud accusations that there were people supposedly coming to Memphis “to stir up trouble” kept ringing in my ears.
Who were these people I supposedly knew who were ready to disrupt the city’s infrastructure? My wild eyes could only register pain as the large men kicked, punched, and beat me with nightsticks because I was unable to speak coherently between my sobs of sorrow and moans for my mother.
I went over in my brain the moment when I stuck out my thumb for one more ride and noticed it was a police car driving by. When they pulled over to talk to me, I knew to have my ID ready, but I never could have been ready for the pain and anguish they distributed upon me.
Recent victims of waterboarding must have felt the same excruciating, indescribable pain administered to me by seven Memphis police officers. Forty years later, I can only hope that when Canada put America at the top of the list for human rights violations, they were also talking about America’s recent increase of police brutality against black men.
The legacy of Memphis police in 1968 may have influenced CIA torture methods. I am not sure what waterboarding victims in our own times tell their captors, but my experience tells me that nothing said under such forms of torture should be regarded as truth. I acted quite contrite as I admitted to being the vanguard for hundreds of civil rights workers heading for Memphis to be with King for acknowledging the number of black men drafted, wounded, and killed during the Vietnam “conflict” (what a euphemism for war!).
Like relentless Stalinists, the policemen gave me a few hard, calculated kicks with steel-toed boots in my back and ribs for making them exhausted from their beating. I promised them the names of protesters, when they were coming, and what they were driving. I could hardly speak from my busted lips, chipped teeth, and broken jaw, but I forced words from my mouth that sounded like what they wanted as long as they stopped their feverish beating to decipher what my cracking voice was revealing.
But I didn’t know anyone, and I certainly didn’t know about a conspiracy to take over Memphis. So I have since apologized for naming as co-conspirators Ralph Waldo Emerson, Hermann Hesse, William Faulkner, Ernest Hemingway, and any other author I ever read. I kept looking from face to face of my seven captors trying to plead with them individually by offering each a name. I worried that one would recognize these names and decide to kill me and dump me in the river, like so many other black men who had been crucified in the South.
Then one of the white men with sweaty armpits shouted out, “I know the name of Faulkner but I can’t remember where.” My heart seemed to explode. I held my breath while biting my lip in preparation for the repetitive beating from well worn nightsticks. Then another cop said, “Wait a sec. It sounds like one of the names from our list of people to look out for.”
The next thing I remember was being thrown onto a crowded jail cell’s sticky, dirty floor with inmates shouting to the guards that I belonged in a hospital. As they looked over at me with unmasked pity and sympathy, I tried to mumble “please, no police” because I was in no hurry for them to finish the homicidal job they started. When an old prisoner with callused fingers tried to prop me up to drink putrid water, I remember saying, “No, thanks, Mr. Bojangles,” before I passed out again.
I woke up in a hospital bed with the sunlight streaming down on my shackled, cask-encased arm. Seeing me regaining consciousness, a black nurse dressed in blinding starchy white rapidly walked across the ward floor to my bedside. As a bulky white police guard looked on, the nurse whispered in my ear, “Martin Luther King is dead.” Now death was also stalking me, and I started to hyperventilate.
My experience at age 14 in 1968 leads me to conclude at age 54 in 2008 that no torture is justifiable. No one has the right to harm another human being. Information obtained though such barbaric methods cannot be trusted to be the truth. The amendments of 1789 to the Constitution through the Bill of Rights denounce personal violation at home. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights should extend those morals abroad.
April 20th, 2009 at 5:26 pmRealityCheck Says:
Do you need every progressive and/or moderate Muslim in the world to personally call you to voice his/her opposition to terrorism?
No. One would be nice.
Never happen
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RC you are a liar and a punkass troll. Dozens of Muslim ORGANIZATIONS have publicly voiced their opposition to terrorism. You are such a worthless and ignorant piece of garbage. What do you think you accomplish by being a liar and a fool
April 21st, 2009 at 8:10 amhp Says:
Which has nothing to do with the point PUNK. They along with MANY Muslim organizations DO condemn terrorism and you LYING about it wont change that.
April 21st, 2009 at 8:11 amyouguysfail Says:
What a waste of precious oxygen YOU are. Just think an actual human being capable of higher brain function could be using that O2
April 21st, 2009 at 10:14 am