Hayden: The Torture Memos Show The ‘Outer Limits’ That ‘Any American’ Would Go To In Interrogations
Hayden: The Torture Memos Show The ‘Outer Limits’ That ‘Any American’ Would Go To In Interrogations
Today on Fox News Sunday, former CIA director Michael Hayden blasted President Obama’s decision to release the Bush-era torture memos. Hayden claimed that he and other former CIA directors opposed making the documents public because it would compromise future interrogations of detainees by letting them know the “outer limits” of what the United States does:
HAYDEN: At the tactical level, what we have described for our enemies in the midst of a war are the outer limits that any American would ever go to in terms of interrogating an al Qaeda terrorist. That’s very valuable information. Now, it doesn’t mean we would always go to the outer limits, but it describes the box within which Americans will not go beyond. To me, that’s very useful for our enemies, even if as a policy matter, this President at this time had decided not to use one, any or all of those techniques. It reveals the outer limits. That’s very important.
Watch it:
The enhanced interrogation tactics were not “the outer limits”; they were in fact torture techniques that operated outside the law. In one of his earliest acts after taking office, Obama signed executive orders ending the CIA’s secret prisons and ending torture by requiring interrogations to abide by the Army Field Manual.
Since at least last month, Hayden has been pressing the Obama administration not to release these torture memos. But his attempts to cover-up abuses go back much further. He has tried repeatedly to prevent the public from learning about the Bush administration’s torture, pushing the “outer limits” of what’s legal:
– In 2005, the CIA destroyed videotapes of agents administering harsh interrogation tactics against two al Qaeda operatives. Hayden defended the move, saying, “What matters here is that it was done in line with the law.” Hayden also claimed that videotaping of interrogations had stopped in 2002, even though evidence later came out suggesting that taping had continued.
– In 2004, IG John L. Helgerson issued a report warning “that some C.I.A.-approved interrogation procedures appeared to constitute cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment, as defined by the international Convention Against Torture.” He continued to exert aggressive oversight of the agency, and in 2007, Hayden ordered an unprecedented internal investigation of the IG. The move appeared to “undermine the independence of the office.”
Host Chris Wallace also asked Hayden about the revelation that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times in March 2003, based on information released in the new torture memos. Hayden claimed that such information had not been made public and refused to confirm or deny the accounts.
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Haden lies like the rest of the Bush cabal. If KSM broke after two minutes (as revealed to ABC News in 2007), why did he get an extra 165 to 178 waterboarding sessions?
http://arisfreedomswitch.blogspot.com/2009/04/khalid-sheikh-mohammed-broke-after-2.html
General Hayden now works for The Chertoff Group, in alliance with Burson-Marsteller. I’d hate to see the employee disciplinary policy he crafts for their corporate clients.
http://stateofthedivision.blogspot.com/2009/04/state-of-risk-management-consulting.html
April 19th, 2009 at 10:54 amThere is nothing wrong with your country. Do not attempt to adjust the political picture. We are controlling MSM transmission. If we wish to make it louder, we will bring up the volume. If we wish to make it softer, we will tune it to a whisper. We will control the political talkshows. We will control the editorial boards. We can roll the rhetoric, make it flutter. We can change the focus of the political picture to a soft blur or sharpen it to crystal clarity. For the next news cycle, sit quietly and we will control all that you see and hear. We repeat, there is nothing wrong with your television set. You are about to participate in a great authoritarian adventure. You are about to experience the awe and mystery which reaches from the inner beltway to… The Outer Limits of Human Decency.
April 19th, 2009 at 10:55 amFcuking degenerate animals.
You want a fight of “good v. evil”, it begins here, and now.
April 19th, 2009 at 10:55 amYeah, if those terrorists know that we waterboard, they will hide a scuba tank up their ass, so if they are ever captured they will not be broken.
April 19th, 2009 at 10:56 amThere is nothing wrong with your television set.
Do not attempt to adjust the picture. We are controlling transmission. If we wish to make it louder, we will bring up the volume. If we wish to make it softer, we will tune it to a whisper.
We will control the horizontal. We will control the vertical. We can roll the image, make it flutter. We can change the focus to a soft blur or sharpen it to crystal clarity. For the next hour, sit quietly and we will control all that you see and hear.
We repeat, there is nothing wrong with your television set.
You are about to participate in a great adventure.
You are about to experience the awe and mystery which reaches from the inner mind to… The Outer Limits.
April 19th, 2009 at 10:58 amHe also made the asinine assertion that we would have to consult the ACLU over “interrogation” practices. The furor is over torture, not interrogation. Why is he conflating the two?
April 19th, 2009 at 11:02 amHi Proud
April 19th, 2009 at 11:09 amI think the premise is fundamentally flawed as first we would have to agree that a mass of undifferentiated cells was a baby and we would have to agree that people are happy about the difficult choices and unique circumstances individuals face in the private matter which is abortion
Now that was a good post, barfly.
April 19th, 2009 at 11:10 amMichael Hayden is the moron who admitted that he overheard two of the 19 hijackers talking on September 10, 2001 in a phone call saying, “The match begins tomorrow” and “Tomorrow is zero hour”, but yet, DID NOTHING. Yep, he was spying on these two hijackers because they were a threat to our country, but yet, he said after the attacks he had no idea what they were saying? Say wha? Sorry pal, but I don’t believe that! You knew who they were ahead of time and were listening to their conversations, but yet, when they say the attack is tomorrow, you don’t respond?
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2002/06/20/zero-day-usat.htm
Hayden should not be trusted. He reminds me too much of Hitler’s Himmler at this point…
http://www.wo2militaryranks.nl/images/Images_SS_personen/Heinrich_Himmler.jpg
April 19th, 2009 at 11:10 amFirst of all, if I call you a terroist, does that mean I can waterboard you?
Before Bush rolled into town, a man was presumed innocent of the crimes he was accused of.
As soon as we assume that people are guilty without proof, then no one is safe. Including you, Proud.
April 19th, 2009 at 11:11 amThat monster does NOT speak for ME.
April 19th, 2009 at 11:11 amWant to talk inconsistency, Proud? What about all those Iraqi children your quagmire killed after they left the fetus?
April 19th, 2009 at 11:12 amAs usual, you wingers are more concerned with a zygote than you are the living breathing outside the uterus children/men/women of the planet who die at the hands of their fathers, mothers, bombs dropped by the US, and other murderers!
Now, go snuggle up to a petre dish, you fool.
April 19th, 2009 at 11:19 amAs for the abortion argument, besides failing to care for the mother’s/child’s health, the right-wing fringe opposed to abortion also opposes contraceptives. Talk about four walls closing in.
My response plays to your wrench-in-the-machine diversion of the thread, and for that I apologize to the TP community.
April 19th, 2009 at 11:19 amHAYDEN: At the tactical level, what we have described for our enemies in the midst of a war are the outer limits that any American would ever go to in terms of interrogating an al Qaeda terrorist.
And doesn’t it also fly in the face of American values? If ours is the right political path, we must ignore those who try to influence the debate with fictional ticking time bomb scenarios, and instead promote positive, affirmative values. Our values would be a much greater force in convincing our captured ostensive enemies, if we didn’t cheapen them in the eyes of the world, by refusing to hold our leaders responsible for their acts.
And it’s not like these “leaders” don’t know basic behavioral science. Positive reinforcement is a much more powerful tool when properly applied, because subjects give more-accurate information, more willingly.
And thanks, McWars.
April 19th, 2009 at 11:20 amProud: you are a moron, and I’m sure you won’t pay any attention to anything I say, but…
First of all, NOBODY on the left is “HAPPY” to “kill a baby” during “any stage of pregancy [sic].”
That is a very stupid assumption, and dead wrong.
We most certainly aren’t happy about abortion, and that’s why we advocate sex education in school and unlimited access to BIRTH CONTROL for both teens and adults.
That is PROVEN to reduce accidental pregancies [sic] by a very large number.
That’s our first-line solution.
And then, if a woman should become pregant [sic], we believe that what she does with her pregancy [sic] is HER CHOICE – not yours.
But of course, I’ve just wasted 5 minutes of my life with this response to an ignorant tool who won’t pay any attention to it…
April 19th, 2009 at 11:21 amThe only think Hayden is worried about is his own ass. It has nothing to do with National Security and everything to do with avoiding being charged for War Crimes. Enjoy your legacy Hayden, you’ll fall right in with the other failed torture regimes that litter the dustbins of history.
April 19th, 2009 at 11:21 amHey Proud! Try to pick out the human embryo in the following picture!
http://home.honolulu.hawaii.edu/~pine/book1qts/embryo-compare.jpg
How come you’re not concerned with the killing of pregnant fish? Or how about the chicken eggs you eat?
YOU MURDERER!!!!
April 19th, 2009 at 11:23 amSo is this really a principle on which we wish to base our national defense:
Don’t fu(k with us, because you don’t know how far we’ll go“?
I mean, seriously, folks. That’s the kind of element that keep people from crossing their local psychotic nutjob. It’s not a strategy for building respect in the global community.
April 19th, 2009 at 11:23 amAnd Prod?
That anyone so concerned with “babies” should posit that it’s perfectly acceptable to torture another human being presents its own serious cognitive dissonance, does it not…?
April 19th, 2009 at 11:25 amAnnie, just because Prod won’t absorb any of your comment doesn’t mean it was a waste. I found it very well-stated and compelling.
April 19th, 2009 at 11:25 amProud Says:
I am well prepared for all the stupid comments that will follow this post, but just for a second use your intellect and explain to me why the left is more than happy to kill a baby at any time during a pregnancy, but is all up in arms about pouring some water on the face of a terrorist, who by the way would not hesitate a second to kill you if he had the chance. How do you develop such twisted logic? Please explain.
There is no explanation possible. It all comes down to the lefts political agendas. It is a collation of loosely held beliefs that constantly are at odds with each other…held together only by their blind hatred of the right.
Case in point…peter puffers have no real convictions on the issue of abortion…because nothing they do together has anything to do with making a baby. I wonder if at least 1/2 their parents…would have opted for the coat hangers…if they had any idea how things might have turned out?
April 19th, 2009 at 11:26 amyou’re a dead man walkin’ Hayden
i can’t wait to see you in the defense box at the Hague
April 19th, 2009 at 11:27 amRealityCheck:
April 19th, 2009 at 11:28 amCan you rephrase the last one in such a way as to make it say something?
Thanks…
why did he get an extra 165 to 178 waterboarding sessions?
Dur chimpfurher and little dickie cheney love to watch the vidoes – especially when people confess to 9/11.
After all – IT WAS AN INSIDE JOB and the criminal cabal in the White House knew it.
Recent proof of Nano-Thermite Explosives at the site demonstrates beyond a reasonable doubt that the official story is a pack of lies.
April 19th, 2009 at 11:29 amAnd in reaction to Prod’s mindless screed which ahs already been thoroughly dispatched by at least three posters,
Which quickly and clearly illustrates the inability to reach beyond their own self-contained prejudices and twisted world view that is common among right-wingers.
Thanks for the demonstration, boys. You’ve done your side — dare I say it? — “Proud”.
April 19th, 2009 at 11:29 amRealityCheck Says:
There is no explanation possible. It all comes down to the lefts political agendas. It is a collation of loosely held beliefs that constantly are at odds with each other…held together only by their blind hatred of the right.
It all comes down to the right’s political agenda. It is a collation of closely-held fears and beliefs requiring no thought, that are constantly at odds with each other (e.g. the death penalty v. abortion) held together only by their blind and butt-ignorant hatred of the left and fear of a changing world.
How did I do?
April 19th, 2009 at 11:30 amIs it safe to assume that the Troll Tag Team’s clumsy attempts to change the subject to abortion suggest that they would rather not acknowledge BushCo’s enthusiasm for torture?
April 19th, 2009 at 11:32 amYou did pretty durn good, gum.
April 19th, 2009 at 11:33 amralph the wonder locust Says:
So is this really a principle on which we wish to base our national defense:
Don’t fu(k with us, because you don’t know how far we’ll go“?
‘Cause it worked so well for Nixon…
——————————————————-
Wow! David Gregory just called Dick Armey out on his organizing of the Tea Parties, and Armey is flopping!
April 19th, 2009 at 11:33 amYeah, if those terrorists know that we waterboard, they will hide a scuba tank up their ass, so if they are ever captured they will not be broken.
Geezzzzzzz…
Don’t give mark foley, ted haggard, larry craig, bob allen, glenn murphy, ken mehlman, little chimpy, and the rest of the hypocrite repug closet homosesuals any ideas.
April 19th, 2009 at 11:34 amThe problem is that the public trust has been broken. We cannot see into the interrogation rooms of the CIA, FBI, or any of our police forces. We see torture and violence in the movies and television, but officials were always quick to point out that all that is fiction and prisoners are treated properly by law enforcement and intelligence agents. Through the Bush years they continued to make the same assurances, but accounts and photographs gave the lie. A line which we were assured would never be crossed by OUR nation was crossed, repeatedly and without remorse. The public trust has been broken. Bush administration members, up to and including the President, lied repeatedly to the American people. As we try to teach every teenager, once trust has been lost it is difficult to regain.
In the past I had no difficulty believing that our nation did not torture people even in the dark rooms of a CIA prison. I believed there were lines that we did not cross. Now, I know for a fact that we have crossed those lines. I know for a fact that atrocities have been committed in our names. I know for a fact that every government employee, from Bush down to the doctor who violated his oath to oversee torture, is a war criminal.
Call it derangement or whatever, but I think that something good about America died and I fear that we can get it back. Obama is not doing what is necessary to put the past behind us. He seems content to just shove it in a closet and forget about it. But you can’t just ignore crimes against humanity.
April 19th, 2009 at 11:36 amMr. Hayden,
People of principle don’t need or want the opinions of a war criminal like yourself. To listen to you is to seek failure. You no longer matter. You are useless to this nation going forward.
April 19th, 2009 at 11:36 amThanks, Ralphie!
*fluttering wings* ;o)
~A
April 19th, 2009 at 11:38 amgummble-bee-itch Says: How did I do?
actually I am Anti-Murder and Anti-Death Penalty Mr or Ms Itch if you really want to know?
The reason I stated above maybe explains why the Left is so full of hate and venom even when the win? They can never be satisfied because they are only held together with hate. Pretty funny actually when you think about it? Too bad their parents didn’t have a clue on raising them in their youths?
April 19th, 2009 at 11:38 amProud Says:
I am well prepared for all the stupid
You’d have to be to hang with your party of choice.
PEACE
April 19th, 2009 at 11:41 amRealityCheck
April 19th, 2009 at 11:41 amCan I trouble you to show some sort of evidences of this whole hate thing? See from where I sit the right seems to harbor far more concerns about diferences in people hence that little ass tent you all huddle under…
held together only by their blind hatred of the right
I think most of us who occupy the broad band of the political spectrum between the extremes would not consider ourselves as having a “blind hatred of the right”.
No. I think most of us are just plain tired and fed up with the childishness and selfishness and lack of honesty and logical thinking that has been so apparent over the course of the neo-con driven GDumbya regime.
Denial has been an effective defense for the extreme right wing . . . in the short term. But it has not been a constructive force for advancing the interests of our country or the well-being of our citizens.
We don’t “hate” you, cupcake. We are just beyond believing that your leaders are capable of governing. We are skeptical that your leaders have any new ideas that will be useful in solving the problems that they created when they were the majority party.
April 19th, 2009 at 11:42 amRealityCheck Says:
The reason I stated above maybe explains why the Left is so full of hate and venom even when the win? They can never be satisfied because they are only held together with hate.
Yes, the Right is so full of compassion and acceptance. The Palin Reichstag Rallies were a prayer for peace and unity. Teabagging Day was a national lovefest!
Time for you to have a reality check.
PEACE
April 19th, 2009 at 11:45 amWow. Anti-murder, huh? That’s taking a strong stand.
Maybe, but I doubt it. Since the “hatred” you see in the Left seems to be primarily a function of the hatred you project onto us, seasoned with scattered expressions of genuine hatred and rage for the damage that the Right has wrought on this nation, and once you’ve got that imaginary “hateful left” planted in your brain, ain’t nothin’ gonna uproot it.
Not reasoned debate, not any number of expressions of compassion from the Left, not genuine displays of humor. Nothing. Your mind is made up, and it’s just your misfortune that it’s made up wrongly.
April 19th, 2009 at 11:45 amNothing. Your mind is made up, and it’s just your misfortune that it’s made up wrongly.
I would assert it’s made up poorly, not just wrong. His posts show a certain shoot-from-the-hip prematurity, that is typical of a superficial intelligence.
April 19th, 2009 at 11:51 amSarah Palin (or Bristol did…no one is sure) thought about aborting Trig because he had Down Syndrome.
I thought you pro-life wackos never EXERCISE CHOICE OR EVEN THINK ABOUT ABORTION…….EVER!
Liars. Go to any abortion clinic and they will tell you that most of the women who come in to have the procedure are Catholics….you know….the church who is against abortion and birth control!
Palin supports abstinence for all children but her own!
Hypocrites. All of ya (except those who understand the choice remains with the woman/girl and no one else).
April 19th, 2009 at 11:51 amGood point, barfly. Correction noted.
April 19th, 2009 at 11:52 amRemember, under valuable torture sessions, John McCain gave up the names of the Green Bay Packers as the names of our soldiers! Yeah, yeah, because telling the truth always comes after being tortured or during it!
April 19th, 2009 at 11:53 amMaybe all of you lefties need to go back and read you’re past post and get back to me on you’re so called NON-Hate post? Just because you pat each other on the back and congratulate each other on how enlightened you are compared to the right…does not make it so.
You are still bitter in you’re win in November because you have such a loosely held together group of ideas. You have no real souls because you had to sell them for voting Democratic. Even you’re mighty Pee-Lice-Ie takes a trip to the Vatican…looking for a photo-op and absolution for her stance on Killing Babies…and the Pope turned her down cold.
Now B.O. bows to the Muslims King and shows his true colors…so now you all must be really confused?
April 19th, 2009 at 11:54 amHaydens comments sort of sound like the maniac who holds a gun to hostage’s head and screams…”Back off, I’m desperate and you can’t tell what I’ll do! I also have a WMD shoved up my butt and if you don’t give me an airplane and a billion dollars and Brittaney Spears I may just go nuclear.”
April 19th, 2009 at 11:54 amRealityCheck maybe you should take breather. You seem to be scattered and reaching blindly. Is it your disability? I don’t want to judge a medical condition but you are all over the place with no solid evidence supported points about anything
April 19th, 2009 at 11:57 amI am pro choice however I find flaw in your statement that the choice remains with the woman and no one else.
It seems to me that it takes two. And if the man has no choice then maybe we should end child support
April 19th, 2009 at 11:57 amNow B.O. bows to the Muslims King and shows his true colors…so now you all must be really confused?
—–
April 19th, 2009 at 11:59 amI am particularly taken by the absurdity of this. I am mostly just confused by way you employ the word reality. I suppose reality is in the mind of the individual….
Expediency will never keep any nation safe…torture is an expedient method, really only useful for venting…it’s kind of like a parent that releases their anger on a child…nothing good ever comes from it…Hayden should be made to answer for his role in the whole sordid affair.
These people don’t speak for me.
April 19th, 2009 at 11:59 amRealityCheck Says: You are still bitter in you’re win in November because you have such a loosely held together group of ideas.
And you Republican types are just imploding because it is working. You just hate the idea that America can work much better without your scripting and propaganda.
Sucks to be you.
April 19th, 2009 at 12:00 pmAgain, could you provide examples of “hate posts” from all of us? (You DID say “all of you lefties“, didn’t you?)
Is it possible in your mind to criticize someone on the right without you seeing it as a “hate post”?
For instance, if I pointed out that “you’re” is actually a contraction of “you are” rather than the possessive form “you” (which is “your”), would this seem like “hate” to you? I suspect it would.
Frankly, your focus on “hate” as a way to dismiss the positions of an entire body of political thought (and the currently dominant one in American political life, at that) makes you sound like the unhinged one.
I’m just saying…
April 19th, 2009 at 12:00 pmHell is other people.
~Sartre
April 19th, 2009 at 12:00 pmdbadass, I must commend you for your compassion you show to our disabled friend.
Do you suppose he will try to portray this comment of yours as a “hate post” as well?
April 19th, 2009 at 12:02 pmRC uses “reality” a lot. I do not think it means what he thinks it means.
April 19th, 2009 at 12:03 pmI just wonder if the persecution and torture of Jews was rationalized the same way the Bush administration rationalizes torture?
True, the torture is for much different reasons BUT the methods of each seem the creation of depraved minds. Just who comes up with these methods? Are they sane individuals or are they mentally unbalanced creatures that can inflict pain and suffering under the guise of “for the good of the country”.
April 19th, 2009 at 12:06 pmGeorge Bush kissed and held hands with the Saudi King as they strolled through the White House gardens? Where was your outrage, hypocrite?
We won in November of 2008 and almost 70% of Americans still believe we made the correct choice! Ha ha, American Taliban. You lost. No one cares what you think anymore. Even when the American Taliban members said they would filibuster every nomination of President Obama’s if he releases the torture memos to the public. Guess what? He didn’t listen to ya! No one is. Get used to it.
GO BACK IN YOUR TRASHCANS!
And remember all the hate you wingers spewed against us liberals for years under George Bush? Our posts can’t keep up or surpass that kind of hate! And you’re still doing it too, but refuse to point fingers at yourself because you think you and your party are still relevant! You’re not.
GO BACK IN YOUR TRASHCANS!
April 19th, 2009 at 12:07 pmRealityChump,
We will never be as confused as you are ignorant. We just seem confused because your head is spinning from ignorance.
BTW, GW Botch and Dick(head and Hayden are still all murdering bastards and should be arrested for crimes against humanity. That’s not a hatred of the right. That’s a hatred of criminals, expecially war criminals.
I’d be interested to someday hear why and how you were raised in an environment where brain cells are both rare and despised.
April 19th, 2009 at 12:11 pmLiberal idea of hate:
Hate what has been done to our country and want to fix it.
Hate the idea that major laws have been broken and the possibility the perpetrators will get off scott free.
Hate having the coffee filter over flowing and getting grounds in the cup.
Republican idea of hate:
Hate that all the control by the rich might be dismantled.
Hate that all the propaganda from Faux is being laughed at.
Hate that they are being laughed at.
April 19th, 2009 at 12:12 pmRC is the poster child for keeping abortion legal.
Don’t bother to reply RC, I’m more enlightened than you and I won’t waste my time reading it.
April 19th, 2009 at 12:13 pmOkay, so we have a right to force boys & men to have vasectomies when they refuse to pay child support? How about a law that all boys must wear condoms and if they don’t and they get a girl pregnant, they should be imprisoned for the rest of their lives? How about no ejaculations or menstrual periods, because these are the tools of conception and we are contributing to the destruction of the Life Tool? Huh?
Honestly, I think it should be a law that all boys are castrated at the age of 13 so unwanted pregnancies never happen. Men should not have choices in our country, because they’re not smart enough to make the right choice so we’ll make it for them.
April 19th, 2009 at 12:13 pmAnd neocons, can you explain why the republicans who controlled the White House, the US Senate, and the US House from 2002-2006 did not overturn Roe v. Wade and did not make abortion illegal in America in all states? Huh? Why is that? Is it because they know they’re being hypocrites, know many right wingers who have had abortions, and know that they have no right over a woman’s body and the choice to keep the baby, give the baby up for adoption, or abort it is rightfully her choice? And they know they only use this issue as an election issue?
April 19th, 2009 at 12:15 pmProud, now that your question has been answered, why do you support torture despite the fact that your savior was tortured to death by the political leaders of his time? You obviously would have supported the “enhanced interrogation” techniques employed by the Romans. After all, they were merely trying to protect the lawful citizens of Rome from the dangers posed by an outside religous movement that was questioning the right of the Romans to rule and occupy a middle eastern country.
April 19th, 2009 at 12:17 pmMay I add they also held a majority on the Supreme Court as well.
They will not and Can NOT deliver on Roe v. Wade…no desire to deliver a win to their base…if they did, it would draw down some of their ability to motivate their base with this wedge issue at election time…because their base is a gang of useful idiots.
April 19th, 2009 at 12:20 pmreally a chump says
April 19th, 2009 at 12:20 pmYou are still bitter in you’re win in November because you have such a loosely held together group of ideas. You have no real souls because you had to sell them for voting Democratic. Even you’re mighty Pee-Lice-Ie takes a trip to the Vatican…looking for a photo-op and absolution for her stance on Killing Babies…and the Pope turned her down cold.
I’ll repeat my question to proud to you rc: why do you support torture despite the fact that your savior was tortured to death by the political leaders of his time? You obviously would have supported the “enhanced interrogation” techniques employed by the Romans. After all, they were merely trying to protect the lawful citizens of Rome from the dangers posed by an outside religous movement that was questioning the right of the Romans to rule and occupy a middle eastern country.
BINGO! If they were to do this, then I think the pro-choice crowd would have to respond with all boys being castrated at the age of 13, because CHOICE DOES NOT BELONG IN AMERICAN SOCIETY! We are too stupid to make any choice and need the government to intervene!
I’d like to know how many abortions Rush Limbaugh has paid for. I bet quite a few. I remember Clint Eastwood forcing one of his wives TO HAVE ABORTIONS, so with that in mind, WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO FORCE YOUNG BOYS TO BE CASTRATED!
If the right wing wants to make this an issue once again, then I think we should seriously start focusing on boys & men and their role in all of this. TAKE THEIR CHOICE AWAY AND WE WILL SEE THE DISCUSSION END. Period.
April 19th, 2009 at 12:25 pmThe government doesn’t belong in my womb.
April 19th, 2009 at 12:27 pmMy neighbor doesn’t get a say about my body.
Period.
Kay, there’s a persistent rumor floating around the ether that Rush never consummated any of his three failed marriages.
Rush might not like girls, in other words. So the likelihood of him facing a pregnant girlfriend seems remote. Of course, none of this is proven. But it would fit a pattern, no?
April 19th, 2009 at 12:30 pmEven you’re mighty Pee-Lice-Ie takes a trip to the Vatican…looking for a photo-op and absolution for her stance on Killing Babies…and the Pope turned her down cold.
WTF does this mean??? Can anyone translate this gibberish for me? I cannot make heads or tails out of this nonsense. I won’t bother asking him for proof because, well, “proof denies faith” would be his excuse for not providing it.
April 19th, 2009 at 12:33 pmIf Hayden’s talking it’s best to assume he’s lying until proven otherwise. The facts bare this out.
http://www.pufferfishblog.com/
April 19th, 2009 at 12:35 pmWayne, the first tip I’d offer is that our friend has a habit of using “you’re” when he means “your”. The rest of it, I’m afraid, is pure fever-driven gibberish so I can’t help you there.
April 19th, 2009 at 12:39 pmI did a post on my blog recently about Limbaugh’s time as a closeted gay DJ in the 70’s. LOL I would say he’s gay and only has wives & women in his life to cover up this fact. Nonetheless, pretending he is straight and loves women…there is no way in hell after being married and having girlfriends that he wouldn’t have gotten at least one of them pregnant over all those years!
April 19th, 2009 at 12:52 pmralph,
First, congrats on getting a “featured comment”.
Second, I know about his problems with words having apostrophes (that weird cousin of the quotation mark), but where does “Pee-Lice-Ie” come into this? I don’t understand what that means.
April 19th, 2009 at 12:52 pmSupposedly, Rush and his second wife (maybe his third) lived in separate houses. But unless Rush was having an affair with Michael Hayden, I think we should leave Rush out of this thread. It would be off-topic. ;)
April 19th, 2009 at 12:54 pmI do not agree with torture and I do not agree with a government that feels it has the right to torture. The problem remains how do we get information to protect ourselves, our children and our country?
April 19th, 2009 at 1:07 pmHmmmm. Rush is gay and in the closet…?
*That* explains a whole freaking lot.
April 19th, 2009 at 1:17 pmThe meanest ones usually are…especially the closed Reich wingers…their self-hatred gets directed at the rest of the American people…usually with disastrous consequences such as illegal wars etc.,
April 19th, 2009 at 1:41 pmProud and Reality Check seem to be into projecting these days. “Bitter in you’re win in November.” is a classic example of it.
April 19th, 2009 at 1:54 pmAs I recall I was so “bitter” about that win that I was out celebrating with a lot of other “bitter” people till late that night. The hangover the next day was worth it.
Torture is torture. The very thought that we tied a man to a board and dunked him 6 times a day for a month gives me the chills. I am not sure were all of this should go, but at present the only I have question is why.
Why did they pursue torture when they clearly knew it did work, and it ran against any prevailing moral and ethical standards?
Why is torture adamantly being defended by the right wing?
There are some serious disconnects with this story. It makes absolutely no sense.
Was this the action of honorable people?
April 19th, 2009 at 2:06 pmSpeculation on Rushe’s love life. Up for consideration is old Dick Cheney. The two appear to worship each other. Just speculation.
April 19th, 2009 at 2:10 pmWe fight an enemy who’s honor is found in killing anyone who’s religeous belief’s are not their own. Their honor is found in being martyred and killing as many of the infidel as possible.
April 19th, 2009 at 2:18 pmI ponder how honorable we will remain if and when these jihadist decide to kill some school kids, or a whole town. We watch in horror as HAMAS hides behind children and civilians in Gaza – where is the honor in that?
I’m not saying this justifies our actions, I’m just saying how do you stop that kind of terror?
So, Hayden expects us to believe that waterboarding is productive in getting reliable information from a victim. At the same time; he wants us to believe that if the victim understands that all they have to do is undergo waterboard treatments a mere couple of hundred times, it may be nonproductive. And he has had it done to him how many times?
These demons want us to believe that common sense went out with the events of 911. The results of last fall’s elections would tend to challenge their Fox-centric views.
April 19th, 2009 at 2:19 pmYa right, “nothing happened here. …move on please”.
Give it up Hayden.
April 19th, 2009 at 2:25 pmFirst step is: you don’t stop it simply by killing as many of them as you can. You don’t stop it militarily.
You stop it from developing by promoting justice — true justice — everywhere you put your foot down. You keep it from becoming the last resort of a desperate people, by actually promoting human rights through actions, not simply through saying you support human rights.
April 19th, 2009 at 2:25 pmkmac813
April 19th, 2009 at 2:31 pmFrom where have you learned these things about your enemy?
You mean like Tim McVeigh?
April 19th, 2009 at 3:11 pmkmac813 Says:
…how do you stop that kind of terror?
A good start would be to end the 1,000+ years of military occupations, wars, and stealing their resources. Perhaps, if the moderate Muslims were no longer the target of Western aggression the number of extremists would shrink?
April 19th, 2009 at 3:13 pmApril 19th, 2009 at 4:07 pm
Proud Says:
——————————————————————————–
I am well prepared for all the stupid comments that will follow this post, but just for a second use your intellect and explain to me why the left is more than happy to kill a baby at any time during a pregancy, but is all up in arms about pouring some water on the face of a terrorist, who by the way would not hesitate a second to kill you if he had the chance. How do you develop such twisted logic? Please explain.
———-
How’s this for logic, sparky? Abortion is legal, torture is not.
No twists there.
April 19th, 2009 at 4:07 pmPride is a sin
April 19th, 2009 at 4:14 pmkmac813 Says:
I ponder how honorable we will remain if and when these jihadist decide to kill some school kids,
exactly…while the leftest panty waist worry about the proper spelling of the word Your…You’re…YUR…they do not give a darn about protecting children. They are more concerned that they hold the TERRORIST hands and make sure they are all comfy and satisfied. But let the TERRORIST light off one nuke in one of their BLUE cities…and watch the crying and demanding about WHO was to blame.
The answer would be staring them in the MIRROR!
April 19th, 2009 at 4:40 pm@93 human rights are for everyone or cannot exist at all.
April 19th, 2009 at 4:50 pmRealityCheck, you still seem a bit unhinged, dude.
Why do I say this? For one thing, your use of all caps is a tip-off. For another, your characterization of progressive positions is — and this is kinda ironic — not really in line with reality. I mean, seriously, who that you know of is actually “more concerned that they hold the TERRORIST hands and make sure they are all comfy and satisfied”? It sounds a little hysterical to me.
Beyond that, your assessment that we “worry about the proper spelling of the word Your” is pretty silly, too. Speaking as the one who made the observation, I can tell you I’m not worried in the least. I made the comment in the context of your claims of “hatred”, wondering if you would see what I wrote as evidence of “hate”. You neglected to address this question, by the way.
And besides, I don’t “worry” about it at all. I occasionally make the same mistake if I’m typing too fast, but when I see someone who does it habitually, I note their lack of sophistication when it comes to the written word, and then judge whether or not that lack of sophistication mirrors a broader, cognitive lack.
In your case, it seems to indicate just that.
April 19th, 2009 at 4:54 pm“But let the TERRORIST light off one nuke in one of their BLUE cities…and watch the crying and demanding about WHO was to blame.”
Hmmm…why does 9/11 come to mind? And who was supposedly to blame? Osama bin Laden? Oh, and where is he right now, thanks to BushCo? And who let the bin Laden family fly out of the US immediately after 9/11?
April 19th, 2009 at 4:57 pmReality, When your accusations start flying don’t forget to put Cheney on top of the list.
April 19th, 2009 at 5:06 pmHi RealityCheck:
April 19th, 2009 at 5:22 pmAbout that anti-American shit of yours. Do you want to handle that or do you just want me to f uck with you everywhere you go? Oh and I don’t give a shit about your disability. I will f uck with you just the same. Let’s go tough guy…
Hey, RadioControl,
But let the TERRORIST light off one nuke in one of their BLUE cities…and watch the crying and demanding about WHO was to blame.
———–
Yeah, cause we liberals demand accountablity when one of our “Blue cities” is attacked even after explicit warnings that the attack was imminent.
Why, imagine if, say, NYC were attacked…oh…wait.
Sorry, sparky, try again. Or not.
April 19th, 2009 at 5:25 pmThe good new is: We have Heyden, Rice, Chenney and Bush, excusing for TORTURE and the US’s TORTURE PROGRAM. We have Heyden, Chenney and Bush admiting on tape, to approving the use of TORTURE.
I’m from south America… CIA’s use of torture is not news…
OBAMA! It time to appoint SPECIAL PROSECUTOR!
April 19th, 2009 at 5:46 pmIt is the only way to “move foward” and a way to “Change” things!
#89 Pete Says
Here’s less than 5 minutes of reading that spans 700 years.
It is the history of the Ottoman Empire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire#Rise_.281299.E2.80.93145329
Also Biblical History records war, war, war.
Is war part of the human condition?
April 19th, 2009 at 5:51 pmSorry Hayden, that uniform doesn’t hide the fact you are full of sh#t. You always have been, just like your brethren neocons.
April 19th, 2009 at 6:46 pmwhat the hell, the absolute lie here is that a small group of muslims pulled off 9-11 with no complicity from the neocons. part of the b.s. story is that these same neocons then kept us safe. they are lying through their flag pins both to cover their asses and to keep this meme going to increase surveillance….power to the military-industrial-surveillance-corporate state – screw the people. torture is a tool of terror…
April 19th, 2009 at 6:49 pmWhat Hayden said was that the memos represent the most extreme torture that was committed by the CIA. I’m sure that that is not true.
April 19th, 2009 at 7:40 pmUh Hayden, you are to be prosecuted.
April 19th, 2009 at 7:52 pmProud Says:
You mean you are prepared for the hostility that you astonishingly stupid posts regularly recieve. Simply put, in deference to your obvious intellectual inadequacy, YOU ARE A LIAR. You want to frame your question falsely and dishonestly and therefore it doesnt even require an answer beyond saying bite me your brainwashed piece of shite.
April 19th, 2009 at 8:52 pmRealityCheck Says:
You are a liar you are a punk and you are a piece of garbage. Human debris IF you qualify as human which I doubt. You are a subhuman moron. Why dont you stick your sell righteous stupidity up your A$$. You are a moron on your BEST days and never give us anything to talk about in your posts except how stupid you are since you post nothing but deranged depraved idiocy.
April 19th, 2009 at 8:54 pmHayden both overestimates the value of information obtained under torture and underestimates the morality of the American people, 65% of whom oppose torture. Nothing could be more un-American, more dangerous to Americans through its undermining of international law and exponentially increasing hatred of us, and more at odds with the principles for which our ancestors stood and fought. Hayden has the looks of Elmer Fudd and the values of Joseph Stalin. Shame on him, and shame on us for tolerating him and his like.
April 19th, 2009 at 9:05 pmwiley Says:
——————————————————————————–
What Hayden said was that the memos represent the most extreme torture that was committed by the CIA. I’m sure that that is not true.
——–
Not what the memos say at all. It is rather Hayden’s spin on it. The two that I’ve read basically say (I’ll paraphrase):
This is what you guys say you want to do and here is my opinion of the legalities of what you guys say you want to do, although I don’t know if you’re going to do them or have done them, but if you do or have this is my legal opinion as to whether it is legal or not.
I’m certainly no lawyer, but this seems like a parse-fest. At the very end is a real giveaway: (Aug. 1 2002) “We wish to emphasize that this is our best reading of the law; however, you should be aware that there are no cases construing this statute; just as there have been no prosecutions brought under it.”
Or this: (May 10, 2005) “Our task has been made more difficult by the imprecision of the stature and the relative absence of judicial guidance, but we have applied our best readin of the law to the specific facts that you have provided.” emphasis mine.
As I said, I’m no lawyer but this looks to me like it has CYA all over it.
The most sickening part of it all is when they describe in detail what the most extreme measures, which to any sensible human being is certainly torture.
April 19th, 2009 at 9:42 pmYou call that torture? I only drink natural mineral water and rain water because the enemies have been brain-washing US citizens with fluride for decades. THAT’S torture!
April 19th, 2009 at 10:48 pmProud Says:
…explain to me why the left is more than happy to kill a baby at any time during a pregancy, but is all up in arms about pouring some water on the face of a terrorist…
It’s not a baby during the pregnancy. It’s a fetus. It’s not a person. So what you’re saying in the first part there is impossible.
As for the second part, that’s like describing the rack as “a gradual spinal readjustment.” Or covering someone in fire ants as “introducing him to some new friends.”
April 20th, 2009 at 12:04 amThe outer limits of what we will do are outlined in the Geneva Conventions and not in some lawyers brief. It is quite simple we are either following the Conventions or we are not.
April 20th, 2009 at 12:31 amTP, I’ve posted a comment twice within the last ten minutes and both have not appeared.
What’s up?
April 20th, 2009 at 12:34 amMegaloptera McWars Says:
Want to talk inconsistency, Proud? What about all those Iraqi children your quagmire killed after they left the fetus?
How about the many that our valorous died to protect?
April 20th, 2009 at 12:36 amwoodguy Says:
Proud Says:
——————————————————————————–
I am well prepared for all the stupid comments that will follow this post, but just for a second use your intellect and explain to me why the left is more than happy to kill a baby at any time during a pregancy, but is all up in arms about pouring some water on the face of a terrorist, who by the way would not hesitate a second to kill you if he had the chance. How do you develop such twisted logic? Please explain.
———-
How’s this for logic, sparky? Abortion is legal, torture is not.
No twists there.
That wasn’t the question now was it? Unless of course your only contention is the formal legality? Thus being that torture would be perfectly legit if it were not illegal.
April 20th, 2009 at 12:39 amElBruce Says:
——————————————————————————–
Proud Says:
…explain to me why the left is more than happy to kill a baby at any time during a pregancy, but is all up in arms about pouring some water on the face of a terrorist…
It’s not a baby during the pregnancy. It’s a fetus. It’s not a person. So what you’re saying in the first part there is impossible.
But the fetus must be very important as its murder carries a hefty penalty.
April 20th, 2009 at 12:41 amRealityCheck Says:
kmac813 Says:
I ponder how honorable we will remain if and when these jihadist decide to kill some school kids,
exactly…while the leftest panty waist worry about the proper spelling of the word Your…You’re…YUR…they do not give a darn about protecting children.
It seems imprudent to suggest that any persons don’t care about children. Through all disagreements we should recognize that we are on the same team afterall, and generally have the same ideals for end-state.
April 20th, 2009 at 12:49 amslip_left Says:
——————————————————————————–
woodguy Says:
Proud Says:
——————————————————————————–
I am well prepared for all the stupid comments that will follow this post, but just for a second use your intellect and explain to me why the left is more than happy to kill a baby at any time during a pregancy, but is all up in arms about pouring some water on the face of a terrorist, who by the way would not hesitate a second to kill you if he had the chance. How do you develop such twisted logic? Please explain.
———-
How’s this for logic, sparky? Abortion is legal, torture is not.
No twists there.
That wasn’t the question now was it? Unless of course your only contention is the formal legality? Thus being that torture would be perfectly legit if it were not illegal.
————
You wingnuts think torture is “legit” even when it is illegal and abortion (adding in the ‘at any time’ straw man, of course) even if it’s legal.
Is legality a legitimate “contention”? I think so.
I don’t know if this will show up or not. I’ve put three comments in during the last ten minutes and they disappeared, but here goes.
You subbing for Prod tonight? Or was he unable to respond for
April 20th, 2009 at 12:53 amseveral hours? Just wondering.
It is reasonable to me to express outrage at the sanctioning of waterboarding, et al. But to call him, or others, evil? Consider this, many of these people care dearly about the safety of the US and feel such an urgency of action that they rationalize this behavior. How many of you wouldn’t torture another person if they snatched your kid and left him/her somewhere for dead? I wouldn’t say that you were evil for doing so. Be PO’d, call it un-american, or whatever, but be hesitant to declare him as evil.
April 20th, 2009 at 1:00 amGen. Jack “P” Ripper Says:
——————————————————————————–
You call that torture? I only drink natural mineral water and rain water because the enemies have been brain-washing US citizens with fluride for decades. THAT’S torture!
———–
Yes, I call it torture. Until Shrub was appointed, the US government called it torture. The people who survived the Inquisition called it torture. Our European allies (hit a nerve?)consider it torture, the US government that executed Japanese soldiers after WW2 considered it torture, the Hague considers it torture.
North Korea, China, Saddam Hussein…not so much.
Nice to know where you stand, though.
And as far as flouride (hint: spelling correctly the thing about which you are ranting adds to credibility. Just sayin’), how’s that John Birch Society membership and your rotting teeth working out for you?
April 20th, 2009 at 1:01 amwoodguy Says:
Wingnut? Is that a leftwingnut or a rightwingnut? Here goes again, you argument follows that torture would be cool as long as it was legal. I disagree, bottom line. BTW, I didn’t get the PROD reference until I rechecked the original copy/paste.
April 20th, 2009 at 1:05 amslip_left Says:
——————————————————————————–
It is reasonable to me to express outrage at the sanctioning of waterboarding, et al. But to call him, or others, evil? Consider this, many of these people care dearly about the safety of the US and feel such an urgency of action that they rationalize this behavior. How many of you wouldn’t torture another person if they snatched your kid and left him/her somewhere for dead? I wouldn’t say that you were evil for doing so. Be PO’d, call it un-american, or whatever, but be hesitant to declare him as evil.
———–
Actions speak more loudly than words, i.e. I’d rather be called evil than be tortured. Put another way, you seemed to be more bothered by the moniker ‘evil’ than by torture. I hope not.
April 20th, 2009 at 1:06 amwoodguy Says:
Actions speak more loudly than words, i.e. I’d rather be called evil than be tortured. Put another way, you seemed to be more bothered by the moniker ‘evil’ than by torture. I hope not.
I certainly am not bothered more with the monicker of ‘evil’. I just feel that it is worth framing context and cautioning against irrationality in response to irrationality.
April 20th, 2009 at 1:09 amAgreed. Since you want to put words in my mouth @21.
I did not state, nor do I feel, that “torture would be cool as long as it were legal”. Didn’t articulate it, don’t agree with it and would never use the word “cool” to describe torture.
I do have a problem with people describing a two day old zygote a “baby at any time during a pregnancy” which is the phrase in the original post @119.
I hope you see the difference, and beyond that will admit the difference, which alot of you right-wingnuts (all better now?) have trouble with, i.e. acknowledging the obvious to avoid losing the argument.
And again, please don’t try to finesse what I say, twisting the meaning of my words, or worse, making them up as you did in your last post.
Thanks.
April 20th, 2009 at 1:50 amsorry should read @121
April 20th, 2009 at 1:51 amSorry about the length, and repeating a post from another thread but, what the heck. And, on the side debate, if you don’t even know the technical terms for the development of a placental mammal? One isn’t in a position to make a rational decision.
While there is some legitimate and relevant debate as to when a fetus is a human being; a zygote, an embryo, or a blastocyst is no more or less human than a wart.
I think there is a point where an abortion should be contraindicated on all levels. However I really can’t see the issue with early term abortion and birth control. Oh yes! You can’t logically treat them as separate.
Wanna stop the overwhelming majority of abortions? Provide free, anonymous, birth control and frank education from parents and qualified sexual health professionals. And leave religion the (bleep!) out of it!!!
BACK ON TOPIC, and sorry again about the length.
Despite a lack of specific training I have a hobby of reading Treaties, Constitutions, foundational documents in general. And there’s not a one of them, outside of sectarian religious vengeance BS, that wouldn’t deem our actions criminal.
I have no doubt that good people, inadequately trained and supervised, went too far. That happens and some of the perpetrators have been fairly punished. By dishonoring their commitments to our country they no longer represent us. But the fact that the highest representatives of our country ordered people to kill and torture innocent human beings is sickening.
These miserable worms who defend the crimes committed in our names will never realize the real cost and they fear the wrong things. 9/11 was a horrific act. It wasn’t the real cost. Untold thousands dead in our lust for revenge. That wasn’t the real cost. And the trivial matter of a gutted economy is not the real cost.
The real cost is that the recognized government of our nation ordered the killing and torture of people who had never harmed us and never had the capability or intent to do so. Everybody we piss off until the end of civilization will carry that knowledge and, horrible as the truth is, it will grow more horrible still.
And if you are really a citizen of our free society, you share a piece of the blame and owe a blood debt. Historically, a blood debt can only be paid in two ways. The first is with your own blood. That settles things. The second is to beg, and offer, forgiveness. Injustice can be forgiven but not without atonement. And without genuine remorse it doesn’t matter what happens to Bushco.
No matter what judgment befalls George Bush in his lifetime, he will be known forever as “The Torture President”, “The Invader”. And the countless innocents who’s lives he destroyed will curse him as the Devil! And untold thousands of them will see every American as one of his Demons. If we want a moment’s peace we, as a nation, must start apologizing, loudly and often and from the heart, for Busco’s crimes.
And that’s the real cost. These ignorant Reichwing savages blabber about freedom and security? A citizen who can’t safely visit a neighbor, or another nation isn’t free and a nation with millions of enemies, with nothing to lose, will never be secure. And the worst damage will be done if no desperate foreign criminal ever kills an innocent in our country because the shame will follow all rational citizens to the grave and beyond.
Thanks for reading.
April 20th, 2009 at 3:01 amSince former CIA director Michael Hayden has such egregious problems with those Americans opposing torture. Does he consider himself authorized with self powers to order Americans they have no choice and the decision was made and we the people have NO SAY?
If he feels so strongly and is out in the media blabbering torture secrets. Then he should have absolutely no opposition to an independent prosecutor investigating the ordeal. After all, if it is legal and harmless as Michael Hayden decries, he and his secret goons would be cleared and not admonishied.
Maybe he was sure Bush would give out medals for inhumane and innamne actions. But did hayden truly believe Americans in general would hand out medals for their alledged crimes?
April 20th, 2009 at 3:39 amPete @128,
Nicely done and every word rings true.
April 20th, 2009 at 4:00 amAnd torture will deter suicide bombers how?
April 20th, 2009 at 7:43 amOk so where do we start or better yet, where do we stop – to make sure our elected officials are punished for their crimes?
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat/258258
April 20th, 2009 at 8:28 amwoodguy Says:
Agreed. Since you want to put words in my mouth @21.
I did not state, nor do I feel, that “torture would be cool as long as it were legal”. Didn’t articulate it, don’t agree with it and would never use the word “cool” to describe torture.
I do have a problem with people describing a two day old zygote a “baby at any time during a pregnancy” which is the phrase in the original post @119.
I hope you see the difference, and beyond that will admit the difference, which alot of you right-wingnuts (all better now?) have trouble with, i.e. acknowledging the obvious to avoid losing the argument.
And again, please don’t try to finesse what I say, twisting the meaning of my words, or worse, making them up as you did in your last post.
Thanks.
I never really concluded that you would be ‘cool’ with torture if it were legal, only pointed out this result from the construction of your argument. In other words, find a better response to the orignal post.
For your problem with wingnuts, this is aptly said to be your problem. It s strange to me though that you intend this as an insult to me merely because I took issue with a syntax flaw in your rational.
April 20th, 2009 at 10:17 amPOTUS Obama released the torture memos because the ACLU and others sued the government for the release of these memos and . . .
A COURT ORDER directed these memos be released!!
Anyone who has a problem with the release of these memos should be directing their outrage at the Court, NOT President Obama, who was compelled to comply with the repeated Orders of the Court!
April 20th, 2009 at 10:44 amOnly one argument for Hayden:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/spyfactory/program.html
April 20th, 2009 at 2:50 pmslip_left Says:
How about the many that our valorous died to protect?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
What are you talking about? We didnt invade Iraq to protect ANY Iraqis. Did the Iraqis ever ASK us to invade them? Your post was plainly stupid
April 21st, 2009 at 8:03 am