UN Rapporteur On Torture: Obama’s Pledge Not To Pursue Torture Prosecutions Of CIA Agents Is Not Legal
UN Rapporteur On Torture: Obama’s Pledge Not To Pursue Torture Prosecutions Of CIA Agents Is Not Legal
When President Obama released the four of the Office of Legal Counsel’s (OLC) Bush-era torture memos last week, he issued a statement promising not to pursue torture prosecutions against CIA agents who relied on the memos to justify their use of torture tactics on terrorist suspects in U.S. custody. (Notably, Obama left open the possibility of prosecuting the torture architects.) “[I]t is our intention to assure those who carried out their duties relying in good faith upon legal advice from the Department of Justice that they will not be subject to prosecution,” Obama said.
But in an interview with the Austrian newspaper Der Standard, the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture, Professor Manfred Nowak, explained that Obama’s grant of immunity is likely a violation of international law. As a party to the UN Convention Against Torture, the U.S. is obligated to investigate and prosecute U.S. citizens that are believed to have engaged in torture:
STANDARD: CIA torturers are according to U.S. President Obama not to be prosecuted. Is that decision supportable?
NOWAK: Absolutely not. The United States has, like all other Contracting Parties to the UN Convention Against Torture, committed itself to investigate instances of torture and to prosecute all cases in which credible evidence of torture is found.
Indeed, Article 2 of the convention on torture explains that “no exceptional circumstances whatsoever” can be used to legally justify torture. Further, the convention states that an “order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification of torture.”
Nowak explained that by invoking the OLC’s memos as justification for the actions of CIA agents against terrorist suspects in U.S. custody, Obama is acting contrary to U.S. obligations under the treaty:
STANDARD: In other words, by making this announcement, Obama has violated international law?
NOWAK: Correct. It is a violation of binding international treaty law in this case, because this is an international law convention — and it provides unequivocally that states are not merely obligated to make torture a crime, but also to prosecute any incidents of which credible evidence can be found.
In announcing his decision to release the OLC memos, Obama also suggested that he is not inclined to conduct a full investigation into the government’s use of torture. Nowak, however, said the he believes that such an investigation ought to be Obama’s highest priority. “Most importantly, there should be a comprehensive investigation undertaken by an independent body. Whether by a special investigatory commission created by Congress or by a special investigator — there are different approaches,” Nowak expalined.
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If Obama does not investigate, it opens the door for Universal Jurisdiction.
But even worse, it puts EVERYONE, EVERYWHERE at risk for being tortured. After all, if the Unites States of America can torture with impunity, why can’t everyone else?
April 19th, 2009 at 2:05 pmIt will be interesting to see where this leads. The truth is very simple…what’s going on behind the scenes here?
April 19th, 2009 at 2:05 pm…in which credible evidence of torture is found.
There’s your out right there….
I mean everybody’s saying these reports are incredible, right?
QED.
Free pass…
I should work fr the Govt, doncha think?
April 19th, 2009 at 2:08 pmThe requirement to prosecute is not a prerogative of anyone whether it’s Obama or a member of Congress…it is a requirement</strong> of law. One’s beliefs and feelings don’t enter into considerations of the law–at least not for nations that consider themselves law-abiding.
April 19th, 2009 at 2:08 pmThis shows the world isn’t impressed with Obama’s memo release and wish to move forward, despite Rahm Emanuel’s assertions.
Step #1 is a thorough investigation. What is found determines step two.
April 19th, 2009 at 2:10 pmThat is good to hear from the UN but I personally cannot stand the UN and wish one, that we would remove ourselves from the UN and than kick the UN out of our country. They have proven to be a joke and the rape their own forces committed in Africa were horrendous.
April 19th, 2009 at 2:13 pm“Most importantly, there should be a comprehensive investigation undertaken by an independent body. Whether by a special investigatory commission created by Congress or by a special investigator — there are different approaches,” Nowak expalined.
Here I have explained why there won’t be any official action from the Obamanistas on the matter:
April 19th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
The President is one sneaky sucker. If he had openly pursued investigation, he would have been attacked as a partisan politician seeking revenge. Instead he says, make nice, look forward, I’m not about retribution.
Twist my arm, make me do this. I don’t want to but the law says I gots to.
First class.
April 19th, 2009 at 2:15 pmThey have proven to be a joke and the rape their own forces committed in Africa were horrendous.
So much worse than the rapes, murders, thefts, etc that our virtuous troops have committed in Iraq, and worse by far than the ‘collateral damages’ our drone bombers inflict on innocent Pakistanis and Afghanis, fer sher…
April 19th, 2009 at 2:16 pmSo far I’m not very impressed with Obama in matters I care most about.
The tendency to abuse power is a human frailty. That’s why we have a constitution and bill of rights… and why we have laws, both national and international.
And we should not apply law by the cafeteria plan.
We need to clean house after that slob W messed it up.
April 19th, 2009 at 2:20 pmTwist my arm, make me do this. I don’t want to but the law says I gots to.
First class.
April 19th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
Such claims of the necessity originating with anyone not DIRECTLY tied to US jurisprudence will be rejected. So no UN or RedCross demands will be recognized.
Remember Judge Koh? His mere familiarity with ‘foreign’ laws has been enough to drail his nomination, so far…
April 19th, 2009 at 2:21 pmWe need to clean house after that slob W messed it up.
April 19th, 2009 at 2:20 pm
No one over the age of 40 will live long enough to see the last vestiges of the collective Bushevik klusterfukcs cleaned up.
Fuggedaboddit…
April 19th, 2009 at 2:24 pmProfessor Nowak is right. President Obama has no choice even under our own Constitution (let alone, international law).
“…he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed,”
The only thing that “acting in good faith” that what they were doing was legal will get them is, maybe, a reduced sentence (depending on what they specifically did.) Another good reason to investigate is to make sure that nobody went beyond what they thought they were authorized to do. To say that he will not investigate these crimes (and they were crimes), President Obama may be allowing them to get away with things that were not authorized by anyone. How will we know? Investigate.
April 19th, 2009 at 2:27 pmI think, however, that it would have benn better for Obama to say “you know, we commited torture. And I cannot prosecute without appearing partisan”, and go from there.
Enforcing the law is not “partisan”, it’s a constitutional obligation.
April 19th, 2009 at 2:29 pmI am holding out hope around the article by Think Progress last Friday:
Obama’s Immunity For CIA Agents Still Leaves Prosecutions Of Senior Bushies On The Table
April 19th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
They are still illegally wiretapping domestic calls without warrants, so it’s logical that they would eventually torure US. citizens too, if this not prosecuted. It is logical that bushie lawyers would have found a legal defense for that too.
April 19th, 2009 at 2:35 pmThey are still illegally wiretapping domestic calls without warrants, so it’s logical that they would eventually torure US. citizens too, if this not prosecuted. It is logical that bushie lawyers would have found a legal defense for that too.
April 19th, 2009 at 2:35 pmoops!
April 19th, 2009 at 2:36 pmLet’s stand up for the rule of law!
April 19th, 2009 at 2:38 pmIt’s OK for Israel and America to torture imprisoned Muslims and Arabs to death while they demonize a German soldier who was a guard at Nazi prison camp.
Why the double standard?
http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/897170.html
April 19th, 2009 at 2:40 pmGuido, Wayne, I agree. A declaration of intention would have been very heartening to those who are waiting. But if he had made the statement, would we have had all these declarations of guilt in the public media from the perps?
Hoist on their own petard.
April 19th, 2009 at 2:40 pmWayne Ant Schneider Says:
Enforcing the law is not “partisan”, it’s a constitutional obligation.
April 19th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
Of course, you are correct, Wayne. But you are thinking with a rational mind — not a batshit insane right wing “mind.”
I wonder if it’s less political machinations, and more that Obama is aware of the social climate out here? This country will be even more sharply divided when the idiots start openly playing the “uppity you-know-what” card, rather than hiding behind the thinly-veiled racism of teabagging parties.
April 19th, 2009 at 2:43 pmWhat the winger is saying is….if Obama doesn’t do what George Bush did then it will be an embarrassment to George Bush. See?
That’s like saying…’okay fine, I killed the woman, but if you went out and killed a woman too, then no one would be pointing fingers at me and I could go through life saying I did nothing wrong because you also killed a woman’.
Spit.
April 19th, 2009 at 2:43 pmKayInMaine,
I love you. :-D
(as much as one straight woman can love another, of course)
Heh.
April 19th, 2009 at 2:46 pmLOL Zooey. I love you too. ;-)
April 19th, 2009 at 2:47 pmThe President is the Prosecutor-in-Chief and the Attorney General is the lead prosecutor for the DoJ.
As prosecutors, with the knowledge of crimes committed, they become willing participants by failing to prosecute. This is true for all war crimes.
For maybe misdemeanors and lesser felonies there is a prosecutors “dilemma” that comes into play which the Pres and AG are trying to finesse. However this is not a dilemma and it is wrong. These are war crimes.
April 19th, 2009 at 2:47 pmBut, but, but we have “American Exceptionalism”.
April 19th, 2009 at 2:51 pmWe can do no wrong; we are above international law.
I’m through comforting myself every time the president puts justice on the back burner with the “grand plot” theory, or justice incrementally. Neither is the economy an excuse. You said it yourself, Mr. President, to my appreciation, that it’s important for a president to walk and chew gum at the same time.
If you refuse to name a special prosecutor, these crimes will be committed again. And if republicans (or a misguided warhawk from any party) is re-installed in the position to recommit wrongdoing they can claim that future critics are just complaining to make political hay and use President Obama as a concrete example. Do you want to become an example, Mr. President? Then I suggest you adjust your rhetoric. Drop ‘retribution’ from your vocabulary.
Justice for torture is so much an overarching issue, that it threatens President Obama’s reputation if he keeps up the habit of getting people’s hopes down.
April 19th, 2009 at 2:52 pmZooey Says:
Of course, you are correct, Wayne. But you are thinking with a rational mind — not a batshit insane right wing “mind.”
Which is why I feel the idea of trying to be “bipartisan” with the Republicans is not only a waste of time, it’s downright stupid. You don’t compromise with Wrong, and the Republicans have been wrong from start to finish on this issue. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to compromise with them on torture. In effect, that would be saying, “The law doesn’t matter.” The law does matter, and the best way to prove that it matters is to enforce it.
April 19th, 2009 at 2:54 pmAnd I love you, too, Zooey (as much as a married man is allowed to love another woman.) ;)
April 19th, 2009 at 2:56 pmNow it becomes an issue of living up to already agreed-upon international statute. If the Obama administration ignores it’s obligations, other countries will be encouraged to ignore US requests, because they will not be deemed legitimate, even though Obama has been fairly elected. If he will not follow established international law, they will also decide to pick and choose which compacts to respect.
April 19th, 2009 at 2:58 pmIt’s just as stupid as appointing yet another commission to study openly allowing gays & lesbians in the military. If it’s not the best pursuit at the right time in your mind, Mr. President, just tell us. You don’t have to suggest an aura of uncertainty where good minds know one doesn’t exist.
I apologize if any non-troll feels I’m on rant mode w/o recognizing the president’s grinding overall challenges and good work to-date.
April 19th, 2009 at 2:59 pmI can’t think about anything until I find this answer–
Why are some posters names in red and others in black? Sure, it is a small thing but it is driving me nuts.
April 19th, 2009 at 3:02 pmI don’t approve of his decision but I certainly understand it. Consider this one facet of ‘victors’ justice.’ You only prosecute individuals who were following orders if their side is defeated. They’re never prosecuted by their own side because that calls into doubt the legitimacy of the state. That’s not to say that there should be no prosecution at all. You simply prosecute those who issued the orders, those who directed the commission of the illegal acts. Reading between the lines I think Obama has left that avenue open.
I think he’s also cognizant of the risks of trying to take on too many issues all at once. Having stopped the illegal actions, there’s ample time to return to the matter of Gonzales, Feith, Rove et al once the immediate crises are under control.
April 19th, 2009 at 3:02 pmI apologize if any non-troll feels I’m on rant mode w/o recognizing the president’s grinding overall challenges and good work to-date.
I think the progressive honeymoon is over, and we’re now looking at the bill for the ceremony.
April 19th, 2009 at 3:03 pmAquarius, the colors vary from time to time here, but usually the names in color are the ones with links.
Zooey, Kay, I love you ‘guys’, too! :D
April 19th, 2009 at 3:03 pmWhy are some posters names in red and others in black? Sure, it is a small thing but it is driving me nuts.
Click on the red, and go for a ride!
April 19th, 2009 at 3:04 pm#39 and #40
Thanks for responding. Learn something new everyday. I guess it is been like that before but today there are so many in red it got my attention.
April 19th, 2009 at 3:09 pm“I vas only following orders.”
– last words of Nazi war criminals before being hanged for war crimes.
April 19th, 2009 at 3:09 pmWith all due respect to the posters here, while I would love to see this administration stand up on its hind legs and nail the illegalities of the previous one (and I think it will come) I respect the strategy that if cutting people’s taxes generates faux protests and calls for secession, getting the economy back on track has to be the first priority.
We are teetering on the brink of armed insurrection, pitiful as the opposition is, but it is a reality. Less than 100 days, the economy is responding.
If I am wrong and the President is serious about non prosecution two months from now, I’ll join the protest. Until then, I say let him work his plan.
And Zooey, the other night was…the other night :)
April 19th, 2009 at 3:10 pmUnfortunately, President Obama released the memos only because he was forced to by an ACLU Freedom of Information Act lawsuit. The man is simply not coming through.
April 19th, 2009 at 3:12 pmJane, it’s only polite for me to allow Wayne to hold the highest opinion of you, but I still think you’re awesome!
April 19th, 2009 at 3:12 pmPerry logan Says:
Unfortunately, President Obama released the memos only because he was forced to by an ACLU Freedom of Information Act lawsuit. The man is simply not coming through.
And I am sure a year ago this would have happened?
April 19th, 2009 at 3:16 pmThanks for the encouragement, barfly. President Obama needs to stop looking for ways to get our hopes down if he means well to walk and chew gum at the same time.
April 19th, 2009 at 3:17 pmOne other point. Ever notice what happens when you prosecute the subordinates? Consider My Lai or Abu Ghraib. They become scapegoats, whipping boys – a sideshow that allows the real criminals, the directing minds, to fade into the safety of obscurity.
April 19th, 2009 at 3:24 pmWhy did you torture that man?…well..that man over there told me to. Sorry,but YOU had the choice to NOT break the law,and YOU did it. Turn around and put your hands behind your back.
April 19th, 2009 at 3:24 pmObama’s administration is dragging its feet regarding Bush/Chenney’s WAR CRIMES. He is protecting them at all costs. Very soon Obama will own Bush/Chenney’s WAR CRIMES!
“There are very good government emplyees who were working to protect America”… That is no defense! ‘Following orders’ is no defense for WAR CRIMES!
These ‘alledged’ “good employees” commited a crime! The TORTURE! The USA had TORTURE PROGRAM!
If Obama were serious about “restoring America’s moral satnd” he has to PROSECUTE AMERICA’S WAR CRIMINALS.(period!)
There will never ever be a “Moving foward” crap slogan that will ever heal the United States if War Criminals and Tortures are not brought to JUSTICE.
It is very simple Mr. Obama: JUST FOLLOW THE RULE OF LAW!
If not…. ‘God indeed, Help america!’ for it has desent lower than the Nazis or Israelis!
April 19th, 2009 at 3:25 pmObey the Law,Mr.President, just like we all have to.
April 19th, 2009 at 3:27 pmFederal prosecutions tend to work slowly. Governor Blagojevich had been investigated for 4 years before he was charged with a crime. Certainly the Obama Justice Department would not be charging anybody three months after his inauguration.
April 19th, 2009 at 3:28 pmYes, wisedup. Just so long as you have already clapped into irons the guys at the top, those who directed the commission of the crimes.
April 19th, 2009 at 3:29 pm#29 dixie blood
You said it all!!!!!!!!!!!!! …these were WAR CRIMES!
April 19th, 2009 at 3:29 pmMegaloptera McWars Says:
April 19th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
Why, thank you, McWars! :D But I have a lot of awesome friends here that I have to try to keep up with!
April 19th, 2009 at 3:30 pmIt’s not believable that these agents had to be coerced into torture, given they felt hobbled by SOP after the first World Trade Center bombing. More likely, they felt invigorated after 9/11, because “the gloves were off,” and they could pursue all the tactics they had heard (and probably seen) other countries use. So, these reluctant De Sades should be given no mercy.
April 19th, 2009 at 3:31 pmI can’t wait to see that animal, C. Rice, facing prosecution for War Crimes!
…and people, TORTURE was not the only WAR CRIME commited by the USA. The illegal invasions on Iraq and Afgahnistan are wars of agression, there are also WAR CRIMES!
April 19th, 2009 at 3:32 pmRD, if an employee of the CIA or any interrogator for that matter should be familiar with the Geneva convention, or maybe they should be in another line of work. Refuse to interrogate under the “enhanced” methods and file for whistle-blower protection. Come forward and explain. It’s not that hard.
President Obama’s promise not to prosecute the rank-and-file aside, his unwillingness to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate the remaining players makes his insistence ring hollow that no immunity is on the table for higher-ups handing down the orders.
April 19th, 2009 at 3:34 pmHoodathunktick Says:
You said it better than I could (:
April 19th, 2009 at 3:34 pmThere needs to be a new civil war within the United States. I can understand why Obama is so frightened of pressing forward with investigations to these war crimes. A substantial minority of the population (committed Republicans) will not accept any investigation or prosecution of the War Criminals in their party. They, just as the Nazis and other fascist movements, cannot conceive that their actions were not those of God sanctioned warriors.
We now see a party that has from before the election indulged in fear mongering, hatred, racism and every other tactic necessary to pull this nation apart. We have seen the continued application of these tactics throughout the new Obama administration. They will do what is necessary to render any Democratic policies ineffective. They are in this to destroy the United States and create a one party state.
Obama needs to press ahead with prosecutions, convictions and executions of these war criminals. A RICO prosecution needs to be brought against the Republican party with the intent of imprisoning its primary leaders, disbanding the party and forever barring their members from running for or serving in public office.
This may seem extreme. However, Democrats tried to be civil after Watergate. What did it bring us? A president, Regan, who committed treason in order to ensure his victory over Jimmy Carter, the subsequent sales of arms to Iran and the use of the subsequent profits from those sales to fund the Contras in direct contradiction to the laws enacted by a democratically elective Congress. We saw the very scum involved with the Nixon administration go even further by selling the government to business, instigating an illegal war in Iraq, committing war crimes and shredding constitutional rights.
Do any of us really think that there is any realistic possibility of the Republicans recognizing that they were wrong?
The answer is no. The Republicans are not deserving of any accommodation. This country will be safe only when the public can see the full extent of their crimes and understand that their leaders were criminals. Only when the lifeless corpses of their war criminals hang from the gallows and the remaining of the elite in the party are in jail for their crimes, will the rank and file Republicans understand why their party deserved to be disbanded. It is not unlike the necessary confrontation of right and wrong with the Nazis after WWII.
Cry Havoc and let loose the dogs of war.
April 19th, 2009 at 3:38 pmThe USA conduct has to be seriously investigated since the year 2000!
April 19th, 2009 at 3:42 pmBush’s stolen election!
9/11 in another matter that still needs unswers! It was an inside job in Chenney’s and Bush’s watch. They must unswer serious questions under oath and in public, about NORAD, THERMITE, WT7, the missile in the Petagon.
Rumsfeld, that walking turd, must be broght to face the FIASCO that killed thousands of iraquis and American soldiers. …and he can rotten in prison with the ‘amry that he had’!
JMOHR Says:
We are in serious trouble when anyone even vaguely claiming left/progressive status can come out with the Republican meme of the only answer is violence and war.
Violence is the answer of the morally bankrupt.
April 19th, 2009 at 3:45 pmExactly JMOHR. And somebody was saying President Obama was worried that the Republicans will start finding things to charge him with if he charges them. We all know that the Republicans will make up something to charge him with no matter what he does. Look at what they did to Bill Clinton after he gave Reagan/Bush a pass on Iran Contra. There is no way the Republicans will act honorable no matter how any Democrat tries to appease them. Which is why Reid and Pelosi need to go. If they had started impeachment proceedings against Bush and Cheney like they should have this wouldn’t all be on President Obama’s head.
April 19th, 2009 at 3:46 pmI agree with all that is said about the Repugnants… however, after the 2006, the Democratic Congress was a HUGE disapointment too! Lets not forget Pelosi’s “Off the table…” speach, when IMPEACHMENT procedures should have taken place! Lets not forget that Senator Obama, voted for sending the leathal weapons to Israel, the very same weapons the Terrorist State o Israel used to MASSACRE palestinians last December!
For the USA to become a real DEMOCRACY, it need to move away from the Two Parties/One policy system.
April 19th, 2009 at 3:53 pmGo to your profile [upper top right of this webpage] and add a link to your contact info where it says Website and add a link to your blog or favorite webpage
April 19th, 2009 at 3:57 pmWe’ve already got a blueprint for this: Nuremburg. To not even attempt to start an investigation that could possibly lead to indictments is crazy. And when and if the CIA guys go to trial, then they can bring up their “following orders” defense (which didn’t work, even dummies know) and others can testify if they are good men or sadists, etc. Remember, not EVERY defendant in the Nazi trials was immediately taken out and hanged. Some were acquitted, some were convicted and shot and some were given various lengths in jail. In other words, it doesn’t necessarily have to be the end of the world to put them on trial, but to preemptively hand out immunity is a real problem for future generations.
April 19th, 2009 at 3:59 pmEither we have the rule of law or we have rule by criminals. The Bush gangster regime was rule by criminals. Where exactly do President Obama and Attorney General Holder stand on the rule of law?
April 19th, 2009 at 4:06 pmMy email to the Dean of the UNLV law school (w/various media cc’s):
The Torturers’ Manifesto
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/19/opinion/19sun1.html?_r=1
____
Jay Bybee is documentably complicit in war crimes. He should not only be impeached, in a morally coherent world, he would be indicted. It sickens me to see his name associated with my university.
Robert Gladd
UNLV alumnus, Institute for Ethics & Policy Studies, 1998
April 19th, 2009 at 4:09 pmHoodathunktick Says:
Hoodathunktick you seem to have problems understanding my post. I do not suggest violence. I suggest justice. War criminals must be brought to the bar of justice and forced to suffer an appropriate punishment for their crimes. Yes, I believe that Bush and some of his henchmen must face the death sentence. Yes, I believe that the RICO laws would very well support the prosecution and imprisonment of key Republican officials for creating a criminally corrupt organization no different than la costra nostra, drug rings or the Baathist party in Iraq.
No, Hoodathunkit, history has proven that the failure to bring such protofascists to justice will indeed result in the creep to fascism that we have seen from Nixon to Regan to Bush.
No where did I suggest violence other than that inherent in the justice system and the imposition of punishment in accordance with our laws.
Before your next ill mannered, ill considered comments, learn to read.
April 19th, 2009 at 4:11 pmThere is no ‘wiggle room’ here: (via Greenwald)
In other words, there’s no exception. Period!
Charter of the International Tribunal at Nuremberg, Article 8:
The fact that the Defendant acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior shall not free him from responsibility, but may be considered in mitigation of punishment if the Tribunal determines that justice so requires.
This bullsh¡t tap dancing by the Obama administration is beginning to stink to high #&@&% heaven. Obama, if he hedges on prosecution, against the clearly stated LAW OF THE LAND, will implicate himself as complicit. I’m sick of these professional liars covering for each other.
I want my Country back, and not with the “change” that involves covering for war criminals like voting for telecom immunity. That action covered up, retroactively, bush’s illegal spying.
Obama, knock that sh¡t off and start following the goddamned law or step down.
And take those appeasing weasels Pelosi and Reid with you.
April 19th, 2009 at 4:14 pmThe way things look right now, if there’s a revolution in this country, it will be the ruling class against the rest of us.
Assuming that particular revolution has not started yet…
April 19th, 2009 at 4:19 pmtokin librul Says:
No one over the age of 40 will live long enough to see the last vestiges of the collective Bushevik klusterfukcs cleaned up.
JMOHR Says:
There needs to be a new civil war within the United States. The Republicans are not deserving of any accommodation. This country will be safe only when the public can see the full extent of their crimes and understand that their leaders were criminals. Only when the lifeless corpses of their war criminals hang from the gallows and the remaining of the elite in the party are in jail for their crimes, will the rank and file Republicans understand why their party deserved to be disbanded. It is not unlike the necessary confrontation of right and wrong with the Nazis after WWII.
…and you wonder why us conservatives are armed…locked and loaded? This is the kind of criminal posting we have come to understand from the left. We are ready…very ready if YOU bring it.
April 19th, 2009 at 4:19 pmgive me a break RealityCheck
April 19th, 2009 at 4:30 pmYou can even prevent being pwned in an environment of electrons
give me a break RealityCheck
April 19th, 2009 at 4:30 pmYou can’t even prevent being pwned in an environment of electrons
RealityCheck: You have the mental acuity of a beet. If you read the post in its entirety, you will note that the reference to civil war was used to describe the intensity of the conflict between right and left. However, the prescription was for trials of the Bush and other war criminals under the law. I am sorry but Bush engaged in war crimes. There is no doubt, no wiggle room on this issue as any competent legal scholar can tell. They should face trial and suffer the punishment for their crimes. The Republican party in general is a criminal organization.
However, you do the same thing that most Republican scum do. You cut and paste what I had said to misrepresent what had been stated.
Your removed the first sentence of the post and fold it into the last paragraph. You leave out what was in between. In particular you excised (with an intent to distort and lie) the essential remedy that had been proposed:
Of course, this is the usual tactic of fascists. I truly do hope you burn in hell for your lack of honesty and morality.
April 19th, 2009 at 4:33 pmDocumentary evidence of complicity in war crimes, the Bybee Memo:
http://www.bgladd.com/PDF/ByBeeOLC080102TortureMemo.pdf
Even with “Top Secret” redactions, the evidence is dispositive.
April 19th, 2009 at 4:34 pm72. RealityCheck Says: …and you wonder why us conservatives are armed…locked and loaded? This is the kind of criminal posting we have come to understand from the left. We are ready…very ready if YOU bring it.
Yes, you’re over-armed with assault weapons because of a blog post. It has nothing to do with hate groups flourishing behind the republican and conservative brand or anything. It has nothing to do with Limbaugh baldly staing that he hopes the President fails or Fox promoting idiocy at the Alamo and inciting revolution.
Nah, it’s the occasional blog post that you idiots sporting bandoliers.
April 19th, 2009 at 4:36 pmDoes anyone besides me wonder if any of these CIA agents who were told to torture just said NO? And if they did, I wonder what happened to them.
Also, I wonder what will happen to the contractors we hired to torture people?
April 19th, 2009 at 4:36 pmNotice how RealityCheck takes a misrepresentation of JMOHR’s post and uses that to justify the government-identified threat of right-wing extremism. Congrats for serving as a buffer to the report, RC.
April 19th, 2009 at 4:38 pm___
How Manly.
LOL. Spare us the 101st Fighting Keyboard Kommando Special Forces Swagger.
April 19th, 2009 at 4:38 pmRealityCheck Says:
While I understand JMohr’s sentiment, not everyone on the left wishes to use violence to resolve disputes. I am perfectly happy with sentencing the worst of them to life in prison without possibility of parole.
What you fail to grasp is that WE, on the left, are not your enemy, not matter what the more popular right-wing entertainment personalities say.
So, do the world a favor and unload your guns. You won’t need them to fight us, and you’ll just get in trouble if you do try to use them.
April 19th, 2009 at 4:38 pmZooey Says:
The way things look right now, if there’s a revolution in this country, it will be the ruling class against the rest of us.
Assuming that particular revolution has not started yet…
Actually I think it will be the minions of the ruling class (like those who attended the “tea parties”) against the rest of us. There’s no way the ruling class is going to get their hands dirty. They will send their brainwashed, brain dead minions out to start the revolution.
April 19th, 2009 at 4:40 pmWayne, it’s obvious that “Reality” Check grasps very little.
April 19th, 2009 at 4:40 pmLocked n’ loaded, eh? I cannot repeat this enough: stop confusing tyranny with losing.
Your kind has committed crimes. Stop hiding behind the mantle of victimhood to avoid accountability. It only dilutes the presence of the real victims.
April 19th, 2009 at 4:41 pmRC, first of all, you obviously (deliberately?) misinterpreted token librul’s comment to mean that people over 40 years of age will be murdered. What tl was saying is that it will take several decades to clean up Bushco’s criminal messes.
Secondly, if your objection to JMohr’s comment starts with ‘a new civil war’, then you and others on the right have no call to argue about that, since the right has been calling for a new civil war basically since President Obama was elected. If your objection to JM’s comment has to do with ‘lifeless corpses of their war criminals’, yes, that goes too far for me (as a non-violet person), but do you object to war criminals being punished to the fullest extent of the law? Or did you simply pick out the one comment here that you could possibly use to demonstrate hate from the left. If “this is the kind of criminal posting we have come to understand from the left”, where are all the other examples?
And your own comment to these simply demonstrates that people like you are more than ready for armed insurrection. Is that not a criminal act? Sounds like you can’t wait to start killing other Americans. Nice.
April 19th, 2009 at 4:42 pm“as a non-violet person” – sorry, I really do love violets, but I’m a non-VIOLENT person.
April 19th, 2009 at 4:47 pmThird Geneva Convention Article 4 defines prisoners of war to include:
April 19th, 2009 at 4:48 pm4.1.2Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, provided that they fulfill all of the following conditions:
that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
THAT OF HAVING A FIXED DISTINCTIVE SIGN RECOGNIZABLE AT A DISTANCE[ there are limited exceptions to this among countries who observe the 1977 Protocol I ]
that of carrying arms openly;
that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war
The United States is not a War Criminal! If you do not sign on to the Geneva Convention you are a War Criminal!
Read the entire Geneva Convention before you make comments that have no backing.
JMOHR Says:
There needs to be a new civil war within the United States. I can understand why Obama is so frightened of pressing forward with investigations to these war crimes.
I think you are wrong here. I don’t believe that President Obama is frightened of pressing forward, I think he is just being thorough and careful, kind of what he does with everything. If he came out of the gate yelling “I’m going to prosecute the Bush Crime Family”, where do you think we would be today? Do you think we would have the stimulus package passed? Do you think we would be any where near having the budget passed? Do you think there would be a prayer of hope getting health care passed? If you think the Republicans are being obstructionist now, just wait until Obama says he’s going to prosecute. Therefore I think he’s being very thorough and careful finding and compiling evidence and releasing to the public some of the more heinous things the Bush Crime Family did. That way when he does go to prosecute, many people will be firmly behind him, including some Republicans. The Republicans are already having a very hard time justifying the things that are in the recent memos that Obama released.
I truly believe that President Obama would never have released any of the memos he has released if he does not intend to prosecute.
April 19th, 2009 at 4:49 pmJane E. Schneider Says:
And your own comment to these simply demonstrates that people like you are more than ready for armed insurrection. Is that not a criminal act? Sounds like you can’t wait to start killing other Americans. Nice.
you want to wallow in the mud and fling the stuff…then expect it flung back.
I would never take up arms against my fellow Americans…as I gave up 20 years of my life to protect my Country…but I will defend my Home & Family against any person who illegally pushes themselves on me.
April 19th, 2009 at 4:52 pmGUNNEROCK Says:
The United States is not a War Criminal!
George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, and Alberto Gonzales (among others) have committed War Crimes in our name.
If you do not sign on to the Geneva Convention you are a War Criminal!
That makes no sense. We are saying that Bush (et al) violated a treaty to which we were a signatory. If your country was not a signatory to that treaty, then your country cannot be charged with violating the terms of it. It might be guilty of violating other treaties.
Oh, and we claim they are war criminals because they violated a treaty on torture, not the Geneva Conventions (though they did violate those, too.)
April 19th, 2009 at 4:54 pmThere is NO WAY President Bush is going to be tried for anything…so I guess all of you leftest are going to your graves disappointed!
hahaha
April 19th, 2009 at 4:55 pmI see a tendency with President Obama to turn himself into a pretzel every time the subject of torture surfaces. He’s ALWAYS prone to leave a ittle wiggle room (a tease if you will) but never utters a definitive statement on the matter. I wonder how long he can keep this up. I’d rather have a full-blown statement than innuendos.
April 19th, 2009 at 4:59 pmThen, we’ll know where he really stands.
RealityCheck Says:
There is NO WAY President Bush is going to be tried for anything…so I guess all of you leftest are going to your graves disappointed!
hahaha
April 19th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
Ah. I see.
You supposedly gave up 20 years of your life to protect your country, but you possess so few critical thinking skills that you completely missed the fact that George W. Bush thought the Constitution was a piece of garbage — and acted outside of it.
So that’s what you signed up to protect? I see.
April 19th, 2009 at 5:00 pmRealityCheck Says:
There is NO WAY President Bush is going to be tried for anything…so I guess all of you leftest are going to your graves disappointed!
hahaha
You have just proven, beyond any doubt, that you have no respect for the law. Your legal opinion is, therefore, meaningless.
April 19th, 2009 at 5:01 pm“you want to wallow in the mud and fling the stuff…then expect it flung back.”
WTF?
April 19th, 2009 at 5:01 pmAs I already stated, read the entire Geneva Convention before making any comments that cannot be backed up.
The United States is not a war criminal!
April 19th, 2009 at 5:01 pmRealityCheck:
April 19th, 2009 at 5:01 pmIt has been well over that half hour. Will you be admitting that there is no evidence to support your claim that I am anti-American or shall I just call bullshit and begin the process of making you look like a fool everytime you appear?
Last chance big guy…
RealityCheck Says:There is NO WAY President Bush is going to be tried for anything
Nice to know Troll Central has declared itself. Free pass to criminals! But only if they are international.
RC, don’t ever try to claim law and order as a righty strong point..
April 19th, 2009 at 5:04 pmWell, odds maker, your track record of THE MATH isn’t very appealing (see: 2006, 2008), but I’m glad you’re hedging your bets that lady justice won’t show just so you have your false vindication.
To the TP community, namely Bilbo: I’ve made this mistake before President Obama took office and I don’t want to make it again — knee-jerk complaints about his timing or decision-making at a certain plot point. My criticism is based on him characterizing potential prosecutions as ‘retribution’; is he fueling up the right-wing tank by doing so? I beg you to clarify if I’m missing something.
April 19th, 2009 at 5:08 pmGUNNEROCK Says:
As I already stated, read the entire Geneva Convention before making any comments that cannot be backed up.
The United States is not a war criminal!
As much as most Americans think this is false, we are. Our government has violated a great number of international laws and treaties. Fact of life.
We tortured people. just like Saddam and Pinochet and Pol pot and any number of tinpot, twobit third world dictators.
But it was ok, the US had better reasons for it.
April 19th, 2009 at 5:08 pm… Nowak, however, said the he believes that such an investigation ought to be Obama’s highest priority.
another likely reason the bushies had for trashing the place before they left… keep the new democratic president otherwise preoccupied…
April 19th, 2009 at 5:09 pmMegaloptera McWars Says:
My criticism is based on him characterizing potential prosecutions as ‘retribution’; is he fueling up the right-wing tank by doing so? I beg you to clarify if I’m missing something.
Where has he ever characterized potential prosecutions as “retribution”? I guess I missed that. I would appreciate a link to where he said it.
April 19th, 2009 at 5:17 pmRDRDRD1 @ 48 makes a good point, IMO:
Also: if he goes after the subordinates — for doing what they were assured by the previous administration was legal and necessary — he’s telling all current and future subordinates, “If I give you an order, start by questioning if it’s legal.” I don’t see how he or anyone else would be able to preside in the climate that that would create.
I hope he ends up going after the higher-ups (or better, protesting feebly while someone else, in or out of the executive branch, actually goes after them) but I don’t think he can be seen as leading the charge himself — or the same thing will be done to him by the Repugs as soon as they get back into power.
April 19th, 2009 at 5:17 pmI take it that Gunnerock is trying to make a point here. Probably the point made by many ignorant of the Geneva Convention.
1. The Republicans tried to evade the applicability of the Geneva Conventions by creating a new category of protected persons known as “unlawful combatants” and as such are not subject to the protections of the conventions.
2. The Geneva Conventions never used the term “unlawful combatants. For the purposes of our discussion, the conventions recognize only two categories: Combatants (POW’s) and civilians. Combatants may commit what would usually be considered a crime – murder, destruction of property and the other acts of violence inherent in war. POW’s cannot be tried for those crimes. They may only be detained to the end of the conflict. Civilians may be tried for such crimes and suffer the consequences. Civilians can not be detained indefinitely. Nor may civilians be treated inhumanely just as POW’s may not be treated inhumanely.
3. The Bush administration found the perfect solution which would permit them the best of both worlds. Those picked up any where in the world could be detained indefinitely and tried for crimes. Unfortunately, this is just an improper interpretation of the conventions and the torture treaty.
By the way, in law school I was a research assistant for a professor writing a book on the history of military justice. War crimes was an area that we covered. As a Judge Advocate, I was taught the Laws of Wars. I also taught the subject to Air Force members both while on active duty and as a reserve JAG.
It is interesting to note that the TJAG of each uniformed service objected to the Bush Administration. Indeed, the JAG corps was cut out of the process and the task of promulgating the administration’s position on torture and the Geneva Convention was handed over to attorneys with neither training or experience in this area.
April 19th, 2009 at 5:21 pm“…Nowak, however, said the he believes that such an investigation ought to be Obama’s highest priority…”
*Highest* priority? It’s a priority, for sure, but there is a crushing load of urgent issues that could all be argued to be of ‘highest’ priority. I’m waiting a while more before I pass final judgment on Obama’s actions on this.
April 19th, 2009 at 5:23 pmObama on torture memos: ‘Time for reflection, not retribution’
link:http://rss.usatoday.mlogic3g.com/The_Oval/269493/;jsessionid=F2A0CF00CFDA77EF6BD6BDEB154F5B6F.wap2
April 19th, 2009 at 5:29 pm“as I gave up 20 years of my life to protect my Country”
And did you happen to swear an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States?
April 19th, 2009 at 5:30 pmhttp://rss.usatoday.mlogic3g.com/The_Oval/269493/;jsessionid=F2A0CF00CFDA77EF6BD6BDEB154F5B6F.wap2
April 19th, 2009 at 5:31 pmHi Jane:
April 19th, 2009 at 5:33 pmWanna dance?
Is it not possible that reassuring the underlings will make it more likely they will give testimony against those who gave the orders?
April 19th, 2009 at 5:33 pmI just want to say that I love every one of you. (As much as any monogamous man can love lots of men and women all at the same time)
Maybe someone with more legal training than me can answer to this, but I’m not sure the army/CIA personnel who carried out the torture can be prosecuted. I could be wrong, but I think the statute carries a burden on the part of the prosecution to prove that the torture was carried out willfully and with knowledge aforethought. If the Secretary of Defense orders the torture after receiving advice of legal counsel that the techniques they were ordered to carry out did not constitute “torture” under the statutes, then willfulness will be almost impossible to prove.
That is why I think it is so important that we prosecute, Yoo, Gonzalez, et al. Or at least allow them to be prosecuted by a legitimate foreign government with a guarantee they’ll be extradited if found guilty. Spain and France come to mind as legitimate prosecutors. I’d also add Switzerland to that list.
April 19th, 2009 at 5:35 pmit’s doubtful that ‘reality check’ comprehends it has shown an understanding of why iran, korea, etc has decided to arm-up…
just an observation…
April 19th, 2009 at 5:43 pmSAME ARGUMENT IS BEING MADE TO IGNORE OUR LAWS THAT BUSH MADE TO VIOLATE THEM
It is not “looking to the past” to ENFORCE the LAW. Since WHEN is NOT enforcing the law an acceptable option in AMERICA? It is “ignoring the law” to choose to ALLOW LAWBREAKERS TO GO UNPROSECUTED FOR THEIR CRIMES. Since WHEN is the POLITICAL ramifications of prosecution an acceptable/relevant argument?
WHERE does President Obama draw the line when it comes to IGNORING illegal acts? Is it EVERYONE in AMERICA who broke the law during Bush’s/Cheney’s reign; or is it ONLY those who were active participants in AIDING and or ABETTING Bush and Cheney? Since WHEN is someone who aids and abets a crime not subject to CRIMINAL prosecution?
The precedents that President Obama would set in failing to hold Bush administration appointees and or employees legally accountable for their illegal actions if FAR MORE DANGEROUS TO AMERICA’S FUTURE than whatever POLITICAL COST we might pay.
How can a Constitutional Law Professor advocate IGNORING the reasons that America was founded as a NATION OF LAWS instead of a NATION OF MEN?!
President Obama is WRONG to PREVENT the prescribed enforcement of our laws. In making the argument that “we have more pressing matters to consider”, he is making the SAME ARGUMENT to IGNORE our laws that the Bush administration made to VIOLATE them. The ends DO NOT justify the means!
April 19th, 2009 at 5:45 pm111.STL Cynic Says: Maybe someone with more legal training than me can answer to this, but I’m not sure the army/CIA personnel who carried out the torture can be prosecuted. I could be wrong, but I think the statute carries a burden on the part of the prosecution to prove that the torture was carried out willfully and with knowledge aforethought.
Read post #70. I’m quoting a Constutional lawyer. ‘Following orders’ that result in torture is prosecutable. The nazis learned this at Nuremberg.
April 19th, 2009 at 5:45 pmdbadass Says:
Hi Jane:
Wanna dance?
April 19th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
Ah, you’ve visited TheZoo, huh? Well, I guess you know what it would take to get me to dance… ;)
———————-
STL Cynic Says:
I just want to say that I love every one of you. (As much as any monogamous man can love lots of men and women all at the same time)
Why, thanks, STL Cynic! :D
April 19th, 2009 at 5:46 pmSTL CYNIC:
Unfortunately, the defense of acting on advice of counsel does not get you very far under these circumstances. The CIA certainly knew that what it was doing was wrong. The same with the military at GITMO. The reliance on counsel’s advice must be reasonable. The FBI saw what was going on and refused to participate. Indeed, they sent memos back from GITMO alerting others to the fact that something was wrong. There was not conflict over whether water boarding was wrong under US law until the Bush administration brought in its phony legal memos to create confusion where there had been clarity. The military prosecuted its own military personnel for water boarding during the Spanish American War and Vietnam. Domestic courts found it illegal when used by law enforcement personnel.
During WWII, the Germans also tried to justify (and it used the same term) enhanced interrogations. The German attorneys concentrated on how the interrogation was implemented and the safety of having medical personnel on hand. It did not work at Nuremberg and should not work in this case.
April 19th, 2009 at 5:46 pmThat’s “Constitutional Lawyer.”
D’ohh…
April 19th, 2009 at 5:46 pmRDRDRD1 Says:
I think he’s also cognizant of the risks of trying to take on too many issues all at once. Having stopped the illegal actions, there’s ample time to return to the matter of Gonzales, Feith, Rove et al once the immediate crises are under control.
April 19th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
and bilbo @88 -
i’ll say it again:
April 19th, 2009 at 5:51 pm“he (obama) can’t get done what needs to be done if he’s in a box.”
-caller to ed schultz
katydid Says:
it’s doubtful that ‘reality check’ comprehends it has shown an understanding of why iran, korea, etc has decided to arm-up…
just an observation…
April 19th, 2009 at 5:43 pm
And an extremely astute observation, katydid. I don’t get to read all of the comments most days, but you’ve really been even more spot-on lately than ever before. Keep it up! :D
April 19th, 2009 at 5:51 pmJMOHR,
I agree. If the Army/CIA/Contractors conducting the interrogations were told they could shoot the prisoners in the kneecaps, I doubt very many of them would have just said, “Oh, really? Okay then,” and then gone ahead and done it. They would have known that that order couldn’t be right.
If a reasonable person would believe that the advice of a lawyer couldn’t possibly be right, then he cannot say it wasn’t illegal because his lawyer said it was okay. Every one of those interrogators should have at least suspected that waterboarding (and some of the other things they were doing) would be considered war crimes. And if they had their doubts but did it anyway, then they are guilty, too.
And if they were honestly ignorant of the illegality of what they were doing, then why were they chosen to do it? Wouldn’t you want your interrogators to know exactly how far they could or could not go?
April 19th, 2009 at 5:57 pmthanks jane… back atcha, lady!
i have my days…
April 19th, 2009 at 5:57 pmThanks Anshiro the antlion and JMOHR for helping me clear that up. I know willfulness carries different weight under different statutes. I had not considered the Nuremberg precedent.
As for you, Jane….you’re making me blush. :-)
April 19th, 2009 at 6:00 pmI have my days, too, katy, but they’re pretty rare. Not to mention that Wayne usually gets here before me, and my few comments pale in comparison. :(
April 19th, 2009 at 6:03 pmOnce again, “Proud” plunges into the deep end with lead-packed shoes.
Glub, glub…
April 19th, 2009 at 6:05 pm“as I gave up 20 years of my life to protect my Country”
Never yet heard a real vet say ‘gave up’.
April 19th, 2009 at 6:05 pmProud, I realize the world sounds different when your head is stuffed so far up your butt but do you have to inflict your stupidity on the rest of us because of that?
April 19th, 2009 at 6:07 pmProud, first of all, you do remember that, in the story, Bambi went on to become King of the Forest, don’t you?
And, as far as turning on President Obama for continuing ‘these Bush policies’ goes, maybe you haven’t actually been reading all of the threads and comments lately where we’re questioning and sometimes condemning President Obama for just that reason? Or perhaps you just don’t have reading comprehension skills? Or is it just that you like to spout off whatever rattles around in your skull?
April 19th, 2009 at 6:08 pmGUNNEROCK Says:
As I already stated, read the entire Geneva Convention before making any comments that cannot be backed up.
The United States is not a war criminal!
What color’s the sky there, pard?
April 19th, 2009 at 6:09 pmHi Proud:
April 19th, 2009 at 6:10 pmSorry your weird abortion thing went nowhere. I am struggling a little with your middle run-on. Give me a sec and I’ll get back to you…
The UN wanted Obama to do their job and he isn’t. The CIA followed the sign orders of Bush/Cheney/Rummy/Rice/Powell and those are the one’s who should be charged. Yes idiot Feith and Yoo gave the recommandations of how to toture but it was the President/VP/Secretary of State/Defense Secretary who signed the orders. Rahm knows this is forceing the UN to get off their butt and he knows other countries will file their charges for the victims who were kidnapped and tortured. Remember the memos showed we kidnapped kids and tortured them. Rahm knows Bush put Judges on the Bench would dismiss any charges against the crime team. Better to let the UN and foreign countries handle this. Now the CIA agents can be charged over seas but they will say who gave them the orders which leads back to the Top. Holder wants to deal with the crimes done to the US citizens by the Bush Administration like the attorney firings and the fixed trials.
April 19th, 2009 at 6:11 pmI wanna dance with Zooey too…
April 19th, 2009 at 6:11 pmProud Says:
I am wondering how much slack the radical left will give to Bambi.
First of all, his name is President Barack Obama, not “Bambi”. Noe of us call him “Bambi”. And second, we are going to give him far less slack than your fertile imagination might think.
He won’t prosecute any one for war crimes, that is just a dream of the radical left.
We intend to make him do it.
How long does he continue the war in Afghanistan, continue to fight to maintain wiretapping, actually close Gitmo, pull all troops out of Iraq.
As for Afghanistan, I’ll give him six months to bring about significant change through the use of the military, then he has to get them out and try other tactics. I have already posited that his defense of Bush’s illegal wiretapping was in the hopes that he would lose, and that the matter would be settled from a constitutional standpoint once and for all. (I still believe that.) As for GITMO, that will be closed eventually, but I’ll give that a year so they can decide what to do with everyone. He certainly needs more than a weekend to figure it out. And, again, we’ll make him pull all of the troops out of Iraq, except for the Marines left behind to guard our embassies. (Our embassies should be guarded by US Marines, not private contractors, which, IMHO, were an illegal attempt by George bush to create his own unaccountable private army in violation of the constitution.)
If he continues these Bush policies, when will you turn on him.
This kind of thinking is meaningless. We don’t think the way you do, with an “all or nothing” attitude about whether you’re “with us or against us”. That is a mindset prevalent in conservatives, not liberals.
Do you have any other false arguments we can rip apart tonight?
April 19th, 2009 at 6:14 pm87.GUNNEROCK Says:
C’mere gunnesuck, you little pr¡ck and debate me. You quoted only one category for identifying enemies.
Article 4 also includes this definition:
And the Article 4 definitions are prefaced by this sentence:
So, gunnersuck, you’re a distorting, lying pr¡ck.
Oh, btw, the US signed and ratified the Third Geneva Convention.
April 19th, 2009 at 6:15 pmSTL Cynic Says:
As for you, Jane….you’re making me blush. :-)
April 19th, 2009 at 6:00 pm
Gee, and I didn’t even say anything dirty! ;) You should visit us at TheZoo, if you’re blushing now you’ll just love our Saturday Night Cesspool Parties!
April 19th, 2009 at 6:15 pmProud Says:
I am wondering how much slack the radical left will give to Bambi
A whole lot less than the radical right gave GW. In case you haven’t noticed, your claims of messiah are only a rightwing talking point.
The left side of the spectrum has no problem with telling the President they aren’t happy with his decisions.
good thing for you the makers of Cheetos are apolitical..
April 19th, 2009 at 6:16 pmI am not sure who Bambi is but I’ll bet she dances nude…
April 19th, 2009 at 6:18 pmIf he continues these Bush policies, when will you turn on him.
I would not call it turning on him. That’s GOPuke rhetoric.
But it’s also that I was not and am not invested in him, per se. Unlike some, I do not regard there being more than an RCH’s difference between Dims or Pukes on foreign policy.
So, no, I will not support him in his policies or agenda if he persists in the Bushevik foreign policy, even though I have absolutely NO doubt that he will do so, and that the incursion into Afghanistan will fall into bloody ruin around his ample ears. I will protest loudly, and volubly, and often, and ubiquitously as possible. I will decry his hypocrisies (there are already a few evident), I will condemn the lies (all politicians lie; it’s what they do) I catch.
But I shall also defend against slanders from those whose admiration for the people and policies of the last 8 years renders any such criticism utterly preposterous…
April 19th, 2009 at 6:18 pmProud Says: Please don’t grade the grammar I received a public school education
Done gradiated the 6th grade, did ya now. Or are you from South Carolina?
April 19th, 2009 at 6:20 pmAs much as I wish he would move forward with prosecutions, I also understand his desire to look forward. He’s inherited an unprecidented amount of problems and not to downplay the seriousness of torture but at least he made sure it stopped and is trying to let the truth out.
He hasn’t closed the door on everything yet.
April 19th, 2009 at 6:21 pmProud Says:
Just like to keep it loose and see what kind of reactions I get. Please don’t grade the grammar I received a public school education.
I gave you my reaction, and I didn’t criticize your grammar once. But I do take exception to your insinuation that a public school education is, somehow, automatically inferior to a private school education. I believe that one of the problems with people educated at private schools is that they don’t have any “real world” experience, and cannot possibly understand how people less well off than themselves live.
George Bush once said to his friend (I believe it was Don Weed), “I don’t know how poor people think. I’m just a rich white kid.” And that pretty much summed up Bush’s qualifications for public office.
April 19th, 2009 at 6:21 pmProud, you can attend public school and leave w/o an education. Wearing earplugs for the duration will do that to a person.
April 19th, 2009 at 6:21 pmtolkin librul
What should our foreign policy be?
April 19th, 2009 at 6:24 pmProud? Private school? More like home school. Why is it that home school usually means buy bull taught?
April 19th, 2009 at 6:24 pmWayne Ant Schneider
April 19th, 2009 at 6:26 pm–
Not to mention that teachers in the private setting need no credentials whatsoever. Odd some think they somehow can do the job better but those same folks never choose a surgeon who lacks any professional training…
120.Wayne Ant Schneider Says: I agree. If the Army/CIA/Contractors conducting the interrogations were told they could shoot the prisoners in the kneecaps, I doubt very many of them would have just said, “Oh, really? Okay then,” and then gone ahead and done it. They would have known that that order couldn’t be right.
I think you extend undeserved discretion to agency and/or military types. Look at My Lai. That was women and children shot in a ditch. Also declared legal government policy.
They do what they’re told, mostly.
Chopper pilots Hugh Thompson, Lawrence Colburn and Glenn Andreotta stood in front of the remaining victims and stopped the slaughter. They are what America should be about.
April 19th, 2009 at 6:26 pmor somali pirates
April 19th, 2009 at 6:29 pmWhen the UN steps us and does something about Darfur, then I’ll pay attention to them
April 19th, 2009 at 6:29 pmProud:
April 19th, 2009 at 6:30 pmDo you think the radical right is taken seriously? A yes /no will suffice but if you wish to dig deeper feel free…
or starving children in North Korea
April 19th, 2009 at 6:31 pmor sales of body organs
or child prostitution rings in china
or human trafficing
Proud Says: Hoodathunktick just denegrated an entire state.
Which state?
The state of your mind? If that is the case all I can say is duh.
April 19th, 2009 at 6:31 pmJMOHR
PLease read,
Article 4
Qualifications
Prisoner of War
To be entitled to prisoner-of-war status,captured service members must be “lawful combatants” entitled to combatant’s privilege— which gives them immunity from punishment for crimes constituting lawful acts of war, e.g., killing enemy troops. To qualify under the Third Geneva Convention, a combatant must have conducted military operations according to the laws and customs of war, be part of a chain of command, wear a “fixed distinctive marking, visble from a distance” and bear arms openly. Thus, uniforms and/or badges are important in determining prisoner-of-war status; and francs-tireurs, “terrorists”, saboteurs, mercenaries and spies do not qualify.
So yes the admistration was correct in establishing an ” unlawfull combatant”.
April 19th, 2009 at 6:32 pmProud Says:
Hoodathunktick just denegrated an entire state. What purpose does that serve? Now do you understand why the radical left is not taken seriously, so many of you seem to think your are superior to anyone who disagrees with your beliefs.
First, which “entire state” did Hoodathinktick denegrate?
Second, if you didn’t like his response, how about responding to mine?
April 19th, 2009 at 6:34 pmProud Says:
Just like to keep it loose and see what kind of reactions I get. Please don’t grade the grammar I received a public school education.
Lots of people made educations in public school.
If you couldn’t, the fault sir is not in yur stars but in yourself.
Or were you add/adhd, or some other “excuse” (that’s how you rightards regard it innit?)…dyslexic? Needed “special ed” but your mommy wouldn’t let you, becuz she din’t wanna put you an the short bus everyday where the neighbors could see?
Izzat you “educational” experience, punkin?
April 19th, 2009 at 6:35 pmI think he measn South Carolina. Still I am unsure why he is so uptight about this. What percentage of the US population leans left? Proud seems okay with any denigration of those folks as well as the president of the “greatest” nation on earth whom he seems to refer to as Bambi for reasons I am unsure of…
April 19th, 2009 at 6:36 pmI find it beyond belief that some of you people are real? You hate President Bush so much it’s like an obsession with you. He signifies your very existence it seems?
We had to endure the 8 years of Clinton having people rubbed out to protect his skin and the fact that he got BJ’s from an intern while discussing Strategic state secrets on the phone…and we never got as unhinged as all of you. B.O. might be your Messiah…but to the rest of us…he is just another Chicago Thug Politician who will be exposed as the fraud he is in due time.
I could go on but I have a life and only drop in here from time to time to say hi.
April 19th, 2009 at 6:37 pmAre the this passionate when the UN fails to deliver?
April 19th, 2009 at 6:37 pmGUNNEROCK,
I’m pretty sure it does say that everyone is entitled to a hearing to determine what their status is. Not their guilt or innocence (that can wait until after the war is over), but a hearing to determine whether or not they should have been picked up and held in the first place.
April 19th, 2009 at 6:38 pmHi RealityCheck:
April 19th, 2009 at 6:38 pmI think you are a bullshit pussy who accuses others of falsehoodsthen runs and hides. What do you think…
oil for food anyone?
April 19th, 2009 at 6:39 pmRealityCheck Says:
We had to endure the 8 years of Clinton having people rubbed out to protect his skin
I call bullsh!t
Name a single person that Clinton had “rubbed out to protect his skin”. Just one. And it must be verifiable, and you have to give me the link to the article from which you found your proof.
April 19th, 2009 at 6:39 pmGUNNEROCK Says: So yes the admistration was correct in establishing an ” unlawfull combatant”.
To get around the stated definition of lawful combatant? Or did I miss the statement of your statement about what is lawful? So you are stating if someone is designated as an unlawful combatant they aren’t covered by the Geneva Convention?
So if the US didn’t declare war and there are no lawful combatants, anything goes?
Or are you saying no conditions exist to declare a war, no war exists? And we can do anything we feel like?
April 19th, 2009 at 6:40 pmRealityCheck now claims Clinton had people “rubbed” out. Who0 wants to bet RealityCheck can’t support that shit either? Blow me RealityCheck…
April 19th, 2009 at 6:40 pmWhat should our foreign policy be?
April 19th, 2009 at 6:24 pm
Let’s look at what it has been: globalistic, corporatist, anti-democratic (when they’re not our puppets), militaristic, aggressive: imperial, in a word.
So, what should our foreign policy be?
Not that…
April 19th, 2009 at 6:40 pmArticle 4
Qualifications
Prisoner of War
To be entitled to prisoner-of-war status,captured service members must be “lawful combatants” entitled to combatant’s privilege— which gives them immunity from punishment for crimes constituting lawful acts of war, e.g., killing enemy troops. To qualify under the Third Geneva Convention, a combatant must have conducted military operations according to the laws and customs of war, be part of a chain of command, wear a “fixed distinctive marking, visble from a distance” and bear arms openly. Thus, uniforms and/or badges are important in determining prisoner-of-war status; and francs-tireurs, “terrorists”, saboteurs, mercenaries and spies do not qualify.
Yep…good job…read it and weep folks…that’s the way it is. These terrorist are nothing more then scum…who deserve no protection under the Geneva Convention.
April 19th, 2009 at 6:41 pmRealityCheck Says: We had to endure the 8 years of Clinton having people rubbed out to protect his skin
Except for interns who…
Don’t even go there, butthead.
April 19th, 2009 at 6:42 pmVince Foster Jr
April 19th, 2009 at 6:42 pm“Reality” Check gets unhinged at the thought of consensual sex between adults, and the idea of a black man having any sort of power over him.
Scary shit, man…
BTW, I’d like to see any proof RC has on Clinton “rubbing people out.”
April 19th, 2009 at 6:43 pmkmac813
April 19th, 2009 at 6:44 pmWhat about him?
RealityCheck Says:
Article 4
Qualifications
Prisoner of War
To be entitled to prisoner-of-war status,captured service members must be “lawful combatants” entitled to combatant’s privilege— which gives them immunity from punishment for crimes constituting lawful acts of war, e.g., killing enemy troops. To qualify under the Third Geneva Convention, a combatant must have conducted military operations according to the laws and customs of war, be part of a chain of command, wear a “fixed distinctive marking, visble from a distance” and bear arms openly. Thus, uniforms and/or badges are important in determining prisoner-of-war status; and francs-tireurs, “terrorists”, saboteurs, mercenaries and spies do not qualify.
I missed something, when was war declared?
April 19th, 2009 at 6:44 pmtokin librul
I agree – we’ve gone from Milk Cartons to war machines. I’m hoping the President Obama is able to stand strong on our safety and open new roads to peace. I would much rather be focused on creating a better world than a better militant cache.
April 19th, 2009 at 6:44 pmRealityCheck Says:
Yep…good job…read it and weep folks…that’s the way it is. These terrorist are nothing more then scum…who deserve no protection under the Geneva Convention.
April 19th, 2009 at 6:41 pm
Name all of the people who have been adjudicated as terrorists in this country since 9/11.
April 19th, 2009 at 6:45 pmdbadass Says:
RealityCheck now claims Clinton had people “rubbed” out.
http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/397.html
hurts…doesn’t it
April 19th, 2009 at 6:45 pmreality bounced check has a life? doing what, obsessing over a president who hasn’t been in office for close to a decade? wow, quite an existance that must be.
April 19th, 2009 at 6:45 pm…he got BJ’s from an intern …
they have ALWAYS been jealous of him… especially for THAT!
April 19th, 2009 at 6:47 pmha!
RealityCheck
April 19th, 2009 at 6:47 pmYou have no idea what problem you have created for yourself do you? I advice just telling the truth and I will let it go. I think Archie would advice the same…
reality bounced check,
April 19th, 2009 at 6:48 pmfrom the link you provided:
“Geoff Metcalf calls himself an a typical conservative” which essentially means he’s a pissypants LIAR
And we want a UN that functions – not a global repeat of what happens in the beltway
April 19th, 2009 at 6:48 pmThere was a lot of controversy over Vince Foster – he was found dead – but some think he was murdered.
April 19th, 2009 at 6:48 pmI don’t trust any of these guys with too much power – and that is what they have, too much power – I’m glad to hear that we all have one thing in common, and that seems to me to be that we want our elected officials held accountable to the constitution.
hurts…doesn’t it
—
April 19th, 2009 at 6:48 pmNo it doesn’t hurt at all since if it was true law enforcement would have already handled it.
the recent israeli phosphorous bombing of civilians (on camera no less!) is internationally recognized as a war crime and should be prosecuted as such… unless you ask a jew that is, then it is OK and we should just move on and get over it and ignore the human rights violations. they were done in good faith and for a good cause.
one of the people defending the rights of the bush cabal to do what they did is non other than rahm (the jew) emmanuel. i wonder where he got his line of reasoning?
where is the great jewish tradition of jurisprudence? of justice, of honor? apparently they edited the history books too.
classic.
April 19th, 2009 at 6:49 pmRealityCheck:
What hurts you is the reality that you are totally f ucked until you recaint that stupid shit about me being anti-American. It may take awhile but trust me you either will or you will quietly disappear or change names. It always ends the same way. It you want any cred show us how I am anti-American
—-
Apologies to the rest of you good folk. Most of you have been around long enough to know what is going on here. Still I always feel bad when I have to take up thread space fixing the f uck ups…
April 19th, 2009 at 6:52 pmRealityCheck Says:
hurts…doesn’t it
April 19th, 2009 at 6:45 pm
Are you offering that as PROOF? I was looking for signed Judgments of Conviction, police records — you know, PROOF.
What an imbecile.
April 19th, 2009 at 6:52 pmA bit of reality in American jurisprudence…
“Help, my husband is a nut case and is threatening me and our children.” “I’m sorry ma’am, but until he does something we can’t help you”
On the international level…”We believe this group are a danger to national security.” “Take them to Gitmo.”
April 19th, 2009 at 6:52 pmRDRDRD1 Says:
One other point. Ever notice what happens when you prosecute the subordinates? Consider My Lai or Abu Ghraib. They become scapegoats, whipping boys – a sideshow that allows the real criminals, the directing minds, to fade into the safety of obscurity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That is a good point but HERE is the thing. IF you want to get the guys up higher on the food chain the LAST thing you do it just give a blanket immunity then ask them to talk. You bring them in and tell them that you HAVE them and eitehr they cough up who ordered them to do it or THEY will get the brunt of the charge and go to prison for ten years or so. If they DO tell about who ordered the torture AND tesify, THEN you will give them a lesser criminal charge without jail time. THEN you are one step closer to the top THAT is how you use immunity to go after big fish
April 19th, 2009 at 6:52 pmZooey Says:
“Reality” Check gets unhinged at the thought of consensual sex between adults, and the idea of a black man having any sort of power over him.
first off…Clit-on was in a CEO position and he should have been fired on the spot…if he was really a man he would have resigned when confronted with it. He lied…His wife lied…Ken Starr let him off the hook…by telling him before hand that he had the DNA goods on him…and the Senate didn’t remove him from office because Hillary had the illegal FBI files on all of his enemies.
Second of all…as The President is supposed to serve at OUR PLEASURE…the current one holds no so called power over me or my family. He is an empty suit who…without his teleprompter…is an idiot who repeats the same thing until the words catch up to where they left off. We all know that George Soros is the one behind B.O.’s throne. If you don’t then you are pretty naive to say the least.
April 19th, 2009 at 6:53 pmhanshiro the antlion Says: 70
Bang, Zoom, that one is outta here Hanshiro. Great post. You are right, no wiggle room there.
April 19th, 2009 at 6:55 pmWho the frack is Geoff Metcalf?
April 19th, 2009 at 6:56 pmYou will all notice that RealityCheck already displays the first stage of loss. The pretend ignore stage…RealityCheck is so f ucked…
April 19th, 2009 at 6:56 pmUh, can’t we just get a Grand Jury to put the case to the court? Is not a Grand Jury the INDEPENDENT arm of jurisprudence in this country?
April 19th, 2009 at 6:56 pmRealityCheck Says: Second of all…as The President is supposed to serve at OUR PLEASURE.
No they serve because a majority of the populace has elected them. If the minority that lost the election isn’t happy, too bad for them. Four years and they get a new chance to elect.
April 19th, 2009 at 6:57 pmdbadass Says:
RealityCheck:
What hurts you is the reality that you are totally f ucked until you recaint that stupid shit about me being anti-American. It may take awhile but trust me you either will or you will quietly disappear or change names. It always ends the same way. It you want any cred show us how I am anti-American
—-
Apologies to the rest of you good folk. Most of you have been around long enough to know what is going on here. Still I always feel bad when I have to take up thread space fixing the f uck ups…
Son…you want to threaten me…you had better watch out. You are a tool…and as far as I am concerned the most “Anti-American” A hole I have ever seen.
April 19th, 2009 at 6:57 pmdbadass, if they didn;t let you have your rocket launcher, I hope you have a flare gun to use as a suppository with Reality.
He needs his life lit up.
April 19th, 2009 at 6:58 pmreality bounced check says:
“He is an empty suit who…without his teleprompter…is an idiot who repeats the same thing until the words catch up to where they left off.”
sort of like you before you can suck your weekly dose of rhetoric from tub-o-lard limbaugh’s sack, right?
April 19th, 2009 at 6:59 pmRealityCheck Says @ 194:
April 19th, 2009 at 7:00 pmWWWAAHHAHAAAAAAAAA, i’m a pissypants beyotch
Son…you want to threaten me…you had better watch out. You are a tool…and as far as I am concerned the most “Anti-American” A hole I have ever seen.
—
April 19th, 2009 at 7:01 pmHey disabled gramps than toughen up and show us the evidences of my Anti-Americanism. I will f uck with you at will and you can’t do shit about it… Because you opened a can of worms with your own bullshit keyboard and are not man enough to admit it but you will in time…
“He is an empty suit who…without his teleprompter…is an idiot who repeats the same thing until the words catch up to where they left off.”
I keep hearing idiots say this kind of bullshite, when their hero, Bush, couldn’t speak properly even WITH a teleprompter. Bush, off-teleprompter, jumbled more words than he got right.
Idiots, get off this teleprompter thing. It’s stupid and it makes you look even more stupid than usual.
April 19th, 2009 at 7:02 pmI can tell when “Reality” Check’s crusty pissy pants are chafing — he starts using THE BOLD.
April 19th, 2009 at 7:02 pmRealityCheck Says:
…and you wonder why us conservatives are armed…locked and loaded? This is the kind of criminal posting we have come to understand from the left. We are ready…very ready if YOU bring it.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
No, we dont wonder. We know that a portion of the right, like you, is stupid, brainwashed and cowardly hypocrites. A little overheated rhetoric from a frustrated lefty that was NOT an exhortation to widespread violence and only a call for CRIMINAL PROSECUTIONS and executions of the Bush war Criminals and you get all weepy. Of course when Annie Ganglskank writes that liberals need to be beaten with baseball bats, or that we are outright traitors on the left, that we should drop daisy cutters at random in the midle east. When the Wienerdog Savage says we need to kill one hundred million Muslims because he is tired of hearing that there are a billion of them. Well thats all well and good. You LOVE the rhetoric of violence when it comes from YOUR side but calling for criminal justice and executions FROM THEM is so beyond the pale. What an ignorant punk you are.
April 19th, 2009 at 7:03 pmRealityCheck,
Sorry, but your link (at least you finally provided one to support something you said) was to a source who did nothing but speculate. Nothing in that blogger’s post proved anything. All it was was a list of coincidental deaths, nothing more.
Do you have any evidence from a source that could be considered reliable, or have you already bought into the whole right-wing conspiracy theories about Clinton. BTW, did you buy that video that Jerry Falwell promoted that also alleged to “prove” that Clinton had people murdered?
I’m not buying what you’re selling.
April 19th, 2009 at 7:04 pmyou want the “honor” of changing them this time around, zooey?
April 19th, 2009 at 7:04 pmRealityCheck,
Simply put, you have no idea what you’re talking about. So I will waste no more of my time with you. I am not a medical expert, but I think you should consult one to see if you need psychiatric help.
It is not us who are naive, it is you. Please, unload your guns, and then go have a nice life.
Goodbye.
April 19th, 2009 at 7:08 pmHey RealityCheck you piece of sh}t sucmbag. We are gonna hang your pissant boooosh and chezey. And we are gonna do it right in front of your eyes, you pathetic excuse for a human. Then we are comming for your guns and hang all of you fcuking traitors that supported these coksucking traitors.
Have fun running in circles with your fingers in your ears a-hole. Hemp or nylon rope a$$wipe?
April 19th, 2009 at 7:08 pmhey reality check,
April 19th, 2009 at 7:09 pmjust a friendly “heads up” for you:
better watch yourself you paranoid conspiracy theorist whackjob. with all the smack you’ve been talking about the clinton’s you may be next on “their hit list”
Son…you want to threaten me…you had better watch out. You are a tool…and as far as I am concerned the most “Anti-American” A hole I have ever seen.
—
Seen? That doesn’t even make sense. Well I don’t think it does. Have you been stalking me or were you at that last Dead show that I sort of got out of control at?
Come on man show us the evidences or just admit that you got a little ahead of yourself and spoke without thinking first when you accused me of being less than patriotic. This isn’t going to go away…
April 19th, 2009 at 7:09 pmGUNNEROCK Says:
YOU, of course, are the one that doesnt know what he is talking about. THAT is a designation of who qualifies as a POW. Did you think that meant that ANYONE ELSE in the country is fair game to do whatever we want to without regard to the rule of law? If you did then YOU ought to read MORE of the GC instead of what has been fed you from whatever screechmonkey source gave you that as if it were the entirity of the GC for instance there is THIS
From http://www.icrc.org:
This assertion promotes the argument that persons who fail to qualify for prisoner of war status under Geneva Convention III are categorically outside of the protections of the Geneva Conventions. However, Geneva Convention IV, Article 4 provides protected status to persons “who find themselves . . . in the hands of a party to the conflict”, unless they fail to meet certain nationality criteria or are covered by the other Geneva Conventions. Detainees not protected by those other Conventions, and who do meet the nationality criteria for coverage under Geneva Convention IV do, indeed, ‘have a label in the law of war conventions’. That label is “civilian”, or “protected person” under Geneva Convention IV – even if they are definitely suspected of activity hostile to the security of the detaining State or of being “unlawful combatants”. Persons who do not meet the nationality criteria are covered by Article 75 of Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions. This article forms part of customary international law.
April 19th, 2009 at 7:11 pmBozo The Neocootiebug Says:
you want the “honor” of changing them this time around, zooey?
April 19th, 2009 at 7:04 pm
Erm, I’m in charge of observations this week. I think it’s dbadass’ week to change nasty trollie pants. :P
April 19th, 2009 at 7:12 pmHey reality-bites-the-dust, this is now the time that you are supposed to take out your guns and kill everyone in your family. GO AHEAD YOU FU CKING CHICKEN, YOU AIN’T GOT THE BALLS. PUUUUUUSSSSSSSSYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!
April 19th, 2009 at 7:12 pmRealityCheck Says:
I would never take up arms against my fellow Americans…as I gave up 20 years of my life to protect my Country…but I will defend my Home & Family against any person who illegally pushes themselves on me.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Well good probably your first reasonable post. Dont hold your breath waiting for lefties to come after you. It isnt our way. If criminals come after you give us a call and we will help you.
April 19th, 2009 at 7:14 pmWayne Ant Schneider Says: 90
Exactly in fact we are MORE than signitories we are a HIGH CONTRACTING PARTY which puts further obligations on us to ENFORCE the treaty obligations.
April 19th, 2009 at 7:16 pmRealityCheck Says: 91
And there is no way you will ever have any decency nor a single functioning braincell so bite me.
April 19th, 2009 at 7:16 pmGUNNEROCK Says:
As I already stated, read the entire Geneva Convention before making any comments that cannot be backed up.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
And as I already showed YOU are the one that only read the part of the GC you wanted to cherry pick from and dont know what you are talking about
The United States is not a war criminal!
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
A country cannot be a war criminal. INDIVIDUALS within the Bush administration are war criminals. Perhaps you forgot the Nuremberg precedent which called starting a war of aggression the SUPREME WAR CRIME. Do you EVER know what you are talking about? You are paraing your foolishness
April 19th, 2009 at 7:20 pmSTL Cynic Says:
Ignorance of the law is NEVER an excuse for breaking the law. They canot claim they didnt KNOW it was illegal therefore it is ok. Someone could commit wirefraud and claim they didnt know it was illegal.
April 19th, 2009 at 7:23 pmThis traitor Reality Bites is in no way a person who has “protected this country.” This little piece of sh|t is just that, a fearful little reichtwing puke, who hides behind skirts and lives in mommy’s basement eating cheetos and drinking Redbull thinking he is all Mr bigshot. He is part of the machine that wants to dismantle this country, and have been working toward that goal for the last 70 years.
I would summarily take you up to your mother and sl|t your throat in front of her telling her she should have had an abortion. Poor fcuking woman, putting up with the likes of you for as long as she has.
Note to self; make more rope to hang these muddafuggas.
April 19th, 2009 at 7:24 pmProud Says:
I wonder just how stupid, brainwashed and pathetic you really are. Each post you make plumbs new depths of stupidity and brainwashed pathetic ignorance. Are you going for the worlds record for stupid? Do you think that is an accomplishment to be proud of? It is already a wonder someone as stupid and pathetic as you can feed yourself. You are a punk. You have no credibility, you have no brain no decency and all you do is spew the stupid you pick up on AM hateradio as Rush tells you what to think. My GOD you are so pathetic it is just sad.
April 19th, 2009 at 7:26 pmProud Says:
Just like to keep it loose and see what kind of reactions I get.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
In other words you are a punkass troll. We knew that. You KNOW you are too stupid to engage in discussion so you try to push our buttons and provoke us like the ignorant brainwashed punk you are. Since YOU are too stupid to enjoy the game you want to screw with the game. How utterly pathetic you are. You are like Micheal Douglas in War of the Roses. When he wasnt part of his wifes dinner party he came in an pissed on the fish. You are such a petty pathetic weasel you want to mess with us because you will NEVER have the intellectual capacity to contribute. What a pathetic piece of garbage you are.
April 19th, 2009 at 7:30 pmProudMoron Says:
You dont know who is taken seriously. Other than the FACT you are far too stupid for anyone to EVER take you seriously. Do you understand that whatever YOU think the far left is that the left WON THE LAST TWO ELECTIONS OVERWHELMINGLY? Obviously our side is taken FAR more seriously than YOUR side ever will be again. Go suck on the election results punk then take your baseless assertions about us, fold them till they are all corners and deposit them where the Sun never shines you worthless troll.
April 19th, 2009 at 7:34 pmRealityTraitor blubbers:
I find it beyond belief that some of you people are real? You hate President Bush so much it’s like an obsession with you. He signifies your very existence it seems?
Here let me fix that for you.
You hate President Bush so much it’s like an obsession with you. He signifies THE very existence of EVIL.
There fixed. And the answer is YES. He and Cheney are the personification of evil, and you are their lacky, stooge, sychophant, suckup. So all of you must die.
April 19th, 2009 at 7:34 pmkatydid Says:
it’s doubtful that ‘reality check’ comprehends it has shown an understanding of why iran, korea, etc has decided to arm-up…
just an observation…
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Just an outstanding observation very insightful
April 19th, 2009 at 7:35 pmObama’s playing from the bush/cheney playbook when he thinks laws are optional for certain politico ruling eilites. He better cut that shit out pretty quick, because it just ain’t so.
And why would Obama even want cover for sadists and deviants? Does anyone using the rubric of “protecting America” get a pass in dangerously psychotic behavior? I think not.
The problem is that Obama, democrats, and decent people everywhere continue to let the deviant sadists sell their horrific behavior as protecting America. Nothing could be further from the truth. The deviants are acting out their deeply psychotic fantasies on real people – that’s it. And the deviant boosters throughout the sick republican/conservative bizarro world get a big charge out of knowing that such deviant behavior is occurring.
April 19th, 2009 at 7:36 pmReasonable retribution against those whom committed crimes is called justice.
April 19th, 2009 at 7:40 pmkmac813 Says:
When the UN steps us and does something about Darfur, then I’ll pay attention to them
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
First of all step in HOW? Where is the UN army again? This is a ludicrous rightwing talking point. When the UN was set up it was PURPOSEFULLY given NO ENFORCEMENT ARM. Thats right all enforcement is done by the great powers we set it up that way so they could never go against us, that is all the great powers not just the US. Now, it was PURPOSEFUlLY set up that way the right wants to whine that the UN doesnt enforce anything. It would be about like taking the power of police to make arrests away and giving in exclusively to the FBI then attacking the police for not making arrests
Second. Use of force wont always make things better. The Sudan is in a very bad way and has been a long time. There needs to be SOME basis for a political settlement or introduction of armed forces could just drive the violence underground and make that same political settlement impossible. I sure hope we can eventually find a solution for the Sudan but it isnt as simple as send in troops and everything will be hunky dory.
April 19th, 2009 at 7:40 pm“send in troops and everything will be hunky dory.”
But, but that is the ONLY answer the right has had for 30 years. They know nothing else. Diplomacy cannot be outsourced you silly goose
April 19th, 2009 at 7:43 pmGUNNEROCK Says:
So yes the admistration was correct in establishing an ” unlawfull combatant”.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
No they werent. IF they are not lawful combatants they are civilians and under protection of the law IF we are claiming they are sabatuers or terrorists that is all well and good it DOES however need to be established in a court of law. POWs are the ONLY people you dont have to indict to hold under the color of law. Also the GC says very clearly that IF there is a dispute on POW status that a competent tribunal will make the designation and the Bush administration DID NOT ALLOW THAT. You can twist all you want. There isnt any real justification for what the Bush administration did.
April 19th, 2009 at 7:44 pmpluege
Your wrong in what you say. I agree with Obama that you can not prosecute the CIA agents they carried out orders prescribed to them by than Bush and Cheney.
The US should go after the the framers who bent the rules and violated the UN treaty. Which explains why Bush had decided that the US should leave the UN.
And you see what 8 years has caused?
April 19th, 2009 at 7:44 pm“… you can not prosecute the CIA agents they carried out orders prescribed to them by than Bush and Cheney.”
BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT, EVERYONE gets prosecuted. Fcuk the CIA.
April 19th, 2009 at 7:46 pmFcuk the CIA.
April 19th, 2009 at 7:49 pmDisband them if they give you any shit. I am really sick and tired of the NSA and the CIA and all the rest of the out of control “information gatherers” It is best to just nuke the black building and be done with it.
RealityCheck Says:
My GOD you are stupid. Did you two think that was the entirity of the FOUR Geneva Conventions? You two are morons. We have already destroyed this weak attempt at an argument so there is no reason to do it again
Yep…good job…read it and weep folks…that’s the way it is. These terrorist are nothing more then scum…who deserve no protection under the Geneva Convention.
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If they are terrorists we can just prove that in a court then treat them as such. Got any evidence that EVERYONE we detained was a terrorist? Of course you dont that is garbage even the Pentagon didnt make that claim you are so stupid that you are TOLD what to think by rightwing screechmonkeys then make a fool out of yourself by repeating it even though it makes NO sense whatsoever. Do you think everyone we tortured or HAD tortured was a proven terrorist? Of COURSE not Maher Arar was a Canadian citizen we sent him to Syria to be tortured for 10 months and never even CLAIMED he was a terrorist just that he MIGHT know something after the 10 months Syria let him go OVER THE OBJECTIONS OF THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION even though Syria said he didnt know anything. You are a cowardly punk. You think everything will just be legal by you CALLING them terrorists and that there is no obligation to even TRY to show they are guilty of anything. You embarass all good Americans
April 19th, 2009 at 7:50 pmRealityCheck Says:
RealityCheck now claims Clinton had people “rubbed” out.
http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/397.html
hurts…doesn’t it
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
The question is does it hurt YOU to be so incredibly stupid. You dont think citing some conspiricy theorist with a website called Clinton body count is anything but an opportuninty for us to LAUGH at your ignorance did you?
April 19th, 2009 at 7:52 pmstupidity and cowardice such as displayed by this reality speck pansy should be painful and criminal
April 19th, 2009 at 7:53 pmkmac813 Says:
Are the this passionate when the UN fails to deliver?
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You are brainwashed. You have been programmed to respond this way even though its stupid and you obviously dont know what you are talking about. You are embarassing yourself.
April 19th, 2009 at 7:53 pmHow is a right winger like a terrorist?
They both use fear to advance their agenda
mainly because they are such pansies
April 19th, 2009 at 7:55 pmkmac813 Says:
Some think Vince Foster was murdered
>>>>>>>>>>>
And some think the world is flat and others think the CIA is beaming thoughts into their head with mind control sattelite without, you know, EVIDENCE that really doesnt mean very much.
April 19th, 2009 at 7:57 pmRealityCheck Says:
First of all you are a punk, an ignorant brainwashed moron and a scum sucking piece of garbage. You are unhinged and stupid beyond human understanding. Why dont you do the world a favor take one of those guns you keep telling us about go into the next room and do the right thing.
April 19th, 2009 at 7:59 pmRealityCheck Says:
Son…you want to threaten me…you had better watch out. You are a tool…and as far as I am concerned the most “Anti-American” A hole I have ever seen.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As far as I am concerned YOU are among the most un-American pieces of pondscum I have ever encountered and dont tell me about your military service. Benedict Arnold was in the Army too. You are stupid, you are un-American and you are a piece of garbage.
April 19th, 2009 at 8:02 pmIt’s official: Obama will let bush go free.
No prosecutions.
Looks like one term for Obama.
If this is true: Fcuk you, Obama. I will actively oppose you for shielding war criminals. You are not my president; you are simply a complicit crony.
Obama is no better than bush.
April 19th, 2009 at 8:14 pmHere’s the link to Obama’s capitulation.
April 19th, 2009 at 8:16 pmCan I be loved too? ^_^
April 19th, 2009 at 8:16 pmThe world now sees the US as a rogue nation.
8 years ago, one of the articles justifying our invasion of Iraq was the lack of cooperation with UN investigators. Today, we complain that N Korea and Iran won’t cooperate with the UN investigators.
If we don’t investigate and the UN does, will we cooperate with the UN ?
April 19th, 2009 at 8:23 pmAlecto,
I’m totally against “torture” but from a legal standpoint you have to go after the judge and remove him off the bench and the people who originally authorized the “torture” that violated the US Constitution and UN Treaty laws.
Bush/Cheney et al. the judge need to be brought to trail. That’s why these Republicans are really scared shytless right now.
With all the evidence against Bush/Cheney, the DOJ should go after Bush.
April 19th, 2009 at 8:26 pm“Can I be loved too?”
Of course you can, after all, you’re a goddess! ;)
April 19th, 2009 at 8:27 pmThe Geneva Conventions make it clear that torture is prohibited whatever the classification is for an individual.
1. Civilians are protected under Article 3 and guaranteed protection from inhumane treatment as are combatants under Article 4. Great.
2. If you step out of line, you are no longer a protected person under those articles. However, if you are a spy, saboteur you are protected under Article 5 which permits certain derogation of rights under the convention (e.g. communication.) You are still guaranteed humane treatment. If for some reason, you do not fall within any of these provisions, then you fall under Article 75 again with provisions for humane treatment and right to judgment in a regularly constituted judicial system.
3. However, the Geneva Convention is not dispositive. The UN Convention against torture is dispositive. It is the law of the land ever since signed by Regan. It simply outlaws torture under any circumstance.
4. Take your Geneva arguments. Bush administration authorized acts that are torture. The Torture Convention applies period.
April 19th, 2009 at 8:28 pmLeave it to Jane to know that Bastet is the cat goddess. :-D
April 19th, 2009 at 8:31 pmAnd the foreign countries should go after Bush. What I don’t understand is why the UN Council and DOJ won’t file charges against Bush and Cheney?
April 19th, 2009 at 8:31 pmVaranus komodoensis,
President Obama is going to have to cough up a reason soon. We’re not going to like it, but we’ll dislike him having no spoken reason even less.
I can’t help but think he’s got something in the works, but that could be my conditioned response after 8 years of Bush.
April 19th, 2009 at 8:36 pmThis is why I would disband the Security Council, or at least remove veto power. It was a violation of international law when Bush invaded Iraq. What has been done about it?
April 19th, 2009 at 8:37 pmZooey Says:
Leave it to Jane to know that Bastet is the cat goddess. :-D
April 19th, 2009 at 8:31 pm
Shh! Don’t let my cats know that I’m not the cat goddess!
April 19th, 2009 at 8:38 pmZooey, I miss the butterfly.
Are you still fuzzy?
April 19th, 2009 at 8:40 pm—
Yay! *cheers* *hugs&hugs&hugs*
April 19th, 2009 at 8:45 pmladybastet Says:
Hey I love cats AND Goddesses so ya got me anyway
April 19th, 2009 at 8:45 pmSo much for Obama’s and Holder’s much discussed legal brilliance. The treaty’s language is clear enough for a school child to understand. They have revealed themselves as obstructors of justice, accessories after the fact to war crimes, and cringing cowards. Obama should banish the phrases “rule of law” and “human rights” from his speech in recognition that it is better to be thought a coward than to be known as a coward and hypocrite.
April 19th, 2009 at 8:57 pmEugene atrax robustus Debs Says:
as the UN does not have such a force. In cases where direct UN involvement is not considered appropriate or feasible, the Council authorizes regional organizations such as the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO), the Economic Community of West African States, or coalitions of willing countries to undertake peacekeeping or peace-enforcement tasks.
I’m just sayin – think how many humans are dying there and no one is doing anything about it….
April 19th, 2009 at 9:12 pmAnd it’s going to get worse.
Everybody who participated in torture should be tried.
April 19th, 2009 at 9:20 pmIncluding Nancy Pelsoi
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat/258258
April 19th, 2009 at 9:23 pmDick Cheney said that his favorite TV program is about a government agent who uses torture in every situation to extract information from suspects.
Our torture policy has deeper roots in FOX television than the Constitution…..
http://www.slate.com/id/2195864/
April 19th, 2009 at 9:58 pmPachydiplax de St. Augustine Says:
Zooey, I miss the butterfly.
Are you still fuzzy?
April 19th, 2009 at 8:40 pm
Only for you, Pachy. ;)
April 19th, 2009 at 10:03 pmThe moral imperative is inescapable!
April 19th, 2009 at 10:08 pmZooey Says:
Varanus komodoensis,
President Obama is going to have to cough up a reason soon. We’re not going to like it, but we’ll dislike him having no spoken reason even less.
I can’t help but think he’s got something in the works, but that could be my conditioned response after 8 years of Bush.
—————————————————-
I agree with you but he didn’t rule out not prosecuting the architect’s of the torture language. With that said, I’m sure Obama and the Democrats will go after the judge and others that actually wrote the language that undermine and circumvented the US Constitutionin the DOJ under Bush.
That’s why after 8 years, I’m somewhat willing to give Obama a little break, Bush and Cheney left the US in really, really bad shape almost in dire straits.
But what puzzles me is why didn’t Spain file formal charges against Bush with the DOJ?
April 19th, 2009 at 10:09 pmWe need to make him do it. This is about the American people demanding an investigation. Politicians, as ever, will follow the will of the people.
http://www.pufferfishblog.com/
April 19th, 2009 at 10:15 pmYou want a commission?
Like the Warren COmmission?
The Kerner Commission?
The Contra-Gate Commission?
The 9-11 Commission?
Nobody’s gonna pay any price for the crimes they committed.
the country is split.
it only takes one juror to block a verdict…1 in 12
the vote tally suggests the number is closer to 4 in 10
kiss your last illusions goodby…
sorry ’bout that
April 19th, 2009 at 10:24 pmDanny Noonan Says:
We need to make him do it. This is about the American people demanding an investigation. Politicians, as ever, will follow the will of the people.
April 19th, 2009 at 10:32 pm————————————————————
Agreed and I think there will be an investigation only on the framers of the torture language. There going to go after Bybee.
261. Danny Noonan Says: We need to make him do it. This is about the American people demanding an investigation. Politicians, as ever, will follow the will of the people.
No, they haven’t and won’t. We have no power to compel these ‘representatives’ to comply. Not without active and persistent protests and with the economy scraping bottom, there are precious few who can afford to take the time to do any protesting.
We’re reaching the end of the U.S. experiment. It will drag on for a while, but the rule of law is dead. The rule of expedience is the law of the land and Obama just sh¡t on the Constitution by weaseling out of his sworn duty to uphold and defend that very document.
bush tortured, the administration sponsored torture in direct violation of several treaties and our own declarations of conduct. Obama knows this and is flatly ignoring US culpability.
If our ‘representatives’ had any integrity whatsoever, they would resign en masse in protest. Yeah, right…
“America the Beautiful” is gone; replaced by ‘America Inc., A Subsidiary of KBR.’
April 19th, 2009 at 10:40 pmdelafield Says:
Dick Cheney said that his favorite TV program is about a government agent who uses torture in every situation to extract information from suspects.
Our torture policy has deeper roots in FOX television than the Constitution…..
http://www.slate.com/id/2195864/
DOUBLE WOW CUBED
SICK SICK SICK
AND IT’S TRUE!
April 19th, 2009 at 10:47 pmThe easiest way to solve a problem is to deny its existence.
It is far simpler to ignore the criminal behavior of the Bush regime than it is to confront it.
April 19th, 2009 at 10:51 pmAs I have said before, read the entire Geneva Convention before you make comments that have no backing.The United States is not a war criminal. If you think we are,you have the option to move to a country that will put up with your attitude. See how much you can talk about it there!
April 19th, 2009 at 11:08 pmGUNNEROCK Says:
________
Too silly for words… try again.
April 19th, 2009 at 11:12 pmlabman57
….look at the BIG shyt Bush left the US to clean up, it would take 8 years or longer to undo all Bush’s bull crap. That’s why I have faith that Obama will go for prosecution at the top level.
Obama was a US Constitution lawyer, so I’m sure he will focus on the author and the language that carried out these morbid and unconstitutional behavior.
April 19th, 2009 at 11:12 pmGunnerock: You are an example of why countries become fascist states with little regard either for the rights of their citizens or others. War crimes were committed in violation both of the Geneva Conventions and the UN Convention against torture.
Yes, I have read the Geneva Conventions and as a JAG had to teach our troops how to live up to them. I have read the ICRC comments to the conventions. You obviously lack legal training or experience in military or international law. You repeat the same hackneyed arguments. You selectively read the conventions. Frankly, you remind me of the usual idiot who undermines democracy.,
Frankly, fool, you are the one who needs to move to another country that embraces the same definitions of torture and the Geneva Conventions as espoused in your posts. Let us see the proud company that you wish the United States to join: The old Soviet Union, Nazi Germany (before the conventions but with the same definition of torture), North Korea, the old Saddam Hussein regime, Iran and Al Quaeda.
Frankly, you can go to hell. If I were not civilized, I would enjoy placing a boot on your throat and teaching you just what the actions of the Bush administration constituted.
A true patriot and citizen of the United States will believe in the rule of law. A true citizen understands that every citizen under our constitution and Bill of Rights has a right to petition the government for the redress of his/grievances. Frankly, only a moronic idiot takes such a jingoistic view than you.
You are not qualified by training, education or experience to speak on this subject. You are scum. You are a traitor to your country. You are a threat to our democracy and freedoms.
NOW GO TO HELL WHERE YOU BELONG.
April 19th, 2009 at 11:23 pmVaranus komodoensis Says:
Your wrong in what you say. I agree with Obama that you can not prosecute the CIA agents they carried out orders prescribed to them by than Bush and Cheney.
If that’s the case, then there are a lot of very old and/or dead Nazis and Imperial Japanese that we owe apologies to.
.
As I have said before, read the entire Geneva Convention before you make comments that have no backing.The United States is not a war criminal. If you think we are,you have the option to move to a country that will put up with your attitude. See how much you can talk about it there!
Which clause in the Geneva convention allows torture? Please cite.
You’ve got it backwards. If you live in a country with no freedom of speech, it would be better to move to one where you can point out what the government does wrong when it does something wrong. If you want to goosestep along with whatever your dear leaders want to do without having to listen to them being criticized, then perhaps it is you who should move to a totalitarian regime. Because you obviously hate America.
It’s pretty simple: international law does not allow torture. Committing acts of torture is a war crime. The United States committed acts of torture. This isn’t about which political approach one side or another agrees with, it’s simple deductive logic. On what basis can you say that the U.S. isn’t a war criminal, when it committed acts that are war crimes under the very treaties that it agreed to? Under the very treaties that we have prosecuted and even executed others for?
The legal “minds” from the Bush Administration OLC are the same people who floated the notion of a “Unitary Executive,” which is the exact opposite of everything you learned in civics class. They can’t be relied on to actually know anything about those laws, or any others.
April 19th, 2009 at 11:41 pmJMohr, well done! It’s a shame that your excellent and knowlegeable points are totally lost on Mr. “The United States is not a war criminal” (an incredibly stupid statement in and of itself.)
April 19th, 2009 at 11:42 pmTorture is torture. There is no rationalizing your way around the point. This country appears to have engaged in torture for dubious reasons, and now the “chickens have come home to roost”. It has occurred to me that President Obama may be tracking the best avenue to approach the legal aspects of investigating and prosecuting the matter. The executive branch is conducting the business of the federal government. The oversight is to be provided by the legislative branch. With this case, the previous administration was not given oversight. It is not up to Obama to provide that oversight. He has released documents, and tried to assure his agencies of continuous operation (this is his charge). The Congress is the agency to investigate and recommend action in the case of torture by the Cheney/Bush administration. If action is required, naming a special prosecutor would be the next step.
The second point, Obama may not have a game plan. There is no precedence in this matter. From a political perspective why chance a test drive when your plate is already full of test drives. Another way to look at thi may be may be a loose/loose proposition. The involvement of Obama could make prosecution of the investigation more difficult.
It appears that the decision was made by the President to minimize his roll for the time being and let public opinion work its way through Congress. He has stated his position in regards to torture. We can hope he will do the right thing when the time comes.
April 20th, 2009 at 12:16 amEugene atrax robustus Debs Says:
Do you think everyone we tortured or HAD tortured was a proven terrorist?
To make a distinction between whomever the CIA may snatch and those detained on the field of battle…the CIA would have documentation through intercepts, intelligence, or whatever motive, but it would be very difficult to prove a battlefield detainee to be a terrorist. I don’t have pictures of anyone that shot at me, in the act, or that set off an IED.
April 20th, 2009 at 12:30 amOn that last one, torture notwithstanding, this is only intended to critique the PROOF in question.
April 20th, 2009 at 12:32 amslip_left: The problem arises not only from the CIA captives but also the large number of GITMO detainees who were bought from our Afghan War Lord allies or who were taken in other countries far from the field of battle.
April 20th, 2009 at 12:32 amJMOHR
April 20th, 2009 at 12:34 amYou claim to be a JAG officer.
I am not.Nor do I claim to be.
I am a Proud United States Marine.Served 1972 untill 1981.
I have allready served my time in Hell.
But if you want I will take you back there with me.
Hey I love cats AND Goddesses so ya got me anyway
Yay! People who love cats, goddesses, offer love, and know who bastet is. I love you all! This is a place I feel I belong. /hugs2all
Now to learn more about this Zoo you keep mentioning. Hehe. ^^
April 20th, 2009 at 12:40 amGUNNEROCK Says:
__________
But if you want I will take you back there with me.
__________
Gee… is that supposed to be threatening?
April 20th, 2009 at 12:41 amGUNNEROCK Says:
I am a Proud United States Marine.Served 1972 untill 1981.
I have allready served my time in Hell.
But if you want I will take you back there with me.
Active military conflicts ‘72 to ‘81… Were you one of the very small contingent of Marines stationed in Beirut? Or are you just talking sh!t? Also, threats only make Internet people point and giggle.
.
The Republic of Hymenoptera Stupidity Says:
Gee… is that supposed to be threatening?
Either that or it’s a come on.
April 20th, 2009 at 12:50 amElBruce Says:
Either that or it’s a come on.
__________
True…
April 20th, 2009 at 12:50 amSorry Gunnerock but you earned your place in Hell because of your actions and lack of morality. Now you compound your sins by your language “You claim to be a JAG officer.” You imply that I am lying. Sorry, but I was a JAG stationed at Mather AFB, Kunsan AB and Wright-Patterson AFB. I went on to be a senior trial attorney assigned to the Office of the Chief Trial Attorney, United States Air Force, handling complex civil litigation on government contracts while also maintaining my military service while participating in the reserves.
I strongly object to those without legal background coming up with their interpretation statutes, treaties and other legal issues. We have laws against laymen giving legal advice (Unauthorized Practice of Law)and making it a criminal offense. You are free to express your opinion about what you think the law is in a public forum. I bring up the UPL simply to note that one playing lawyer without the training, background or experience is just considered dangerous. It is the foolishness of your purported interpretation of the Geneva Conventions and your total inability to understand that the UN Torture Convention is an entirely separate basis of criminal liability that makes me nauseous. Ignorance is simply not knowing a subject. Stupidity is blindly going forward in spite of your ignorance. You seem to revel in it.
April 20th, 2009 at 12:55 amPresident Obama without a plan?
You have to f0ucking kidding me.
You teabag trolls can get your lies to stick any longer.
GTFOOH, goofy.
gunner you are one holy stupid teabagger.
April 20th, 2009 at 1:42 amDespite a lack of specific training I have a hobby of reading Treaties, Constitutions, foundational documents in general. And there’s not a one of them, outside of sectarian religious vengeance BS, that wouldn’t deem our actions criminal.
I have no doubt that good people, inadequately trained and supervised, went too far. That happens and some of the perpetrators have been fairly punished. By dishonoring their commitments to our country they no longer represent us. But the fact that the highest representatives of our country ordered people to kill and torture innocent human beings is sickening.
These miserable worms who defend the crimes committed in our names will never realize the real cost and they fear the wrong things. 9/11 was a horrific act. It wasn’t the real cost. Untold thousands dead in our lust for revenge. That wasn’t the real cost. And the trivial matter of a gutted economy is not the real cost.
The real cost is that the recognized government of our nation ordered the killing and torture of people who had never harmed us and never had the capability or intent to do so. Everybody we piss off until the end of civilization will carry that knowledge and, horrible as the truth is, it will grow more horrible still.
And if you are really a citizen of our free society, you share a piece of the blame and owe a blood debt. Historically, a blood debt can only be paid in two ways. The first is with your own blood. That settles things. The second is to beg, and offer, forgiveness. Injustice can be forgiven but not without atonement. And without genuine remorse it doesn’t matter what happens to Bushco.
No matter what judgment befalls George Bush in his lifetime, he will be known forever as “The Torture President”, “The Invader”. And the countless innocents who’s lives he destroyed will curse him as the Devil! And untold thousands of them will see every American as one of his Demons. If we want a moment’s peace we, as a nation, must start apologizing, loudly and often and from the heart, for Busco’s crimes.
And that’s the real cost. These ignorant Reichwing savages blabber about freedom and security? A citizen who can’t safely visit a neighbor, or another nation isn’t free and a nation with millions of enemies, with nothing to lose, will never be secure. And the worst damage will be done if no desperate foreign criminal ever kills an innocent in our country because the shame will follow all rational citizens to the grave and beyond.
April 20th, 2009 at 2:29 amSorry gang! I didn’t realize I had rambled on so long.
April 20th, 2009 at 2:29 amElBruce
With all due respect but I think you missed my point, why should the Obama Administration go after the low-level CIA agents when they got their orders from the top? Please take the time to review this article in the NY Daily News. This is what I was basing my opinion on.
Why the Bush torture architects must be prosecuted: A counter-terror expert speaks out
By Malcolm Nance
Sunday, April 19th 2009, 4:00 AM
Reading the Bush Administration torture documents released last Thursday by the Department of Justice – documents all about inflicting pain, suffering and discomfort – I felt plenty of my own.
America is truly about to go through the looking glass. But it’s a task that must be accomplished if we are to stand before the world and destroy al-Qaeda.
I have been engaged in the hunt for al-Qaeda for almost two decades. And, as I once wrote in the Daily News, I have personally led, witnessed and supervised waterboarding of hundreds of people – as we trained our own fighting men and women to endure and resist the interrogation tactics they might be subjected to by our enemies. I know waterboarding is torture because I have been on the giving and receiving end of the practice.
This was during the last four years of my military career, when I served at the U.S. Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape (SERE) school. Working there, and helping protect our servicemen and women, was my greatest pride. We especially emphasized escape, because captivity by al-Qaeda’s Jihadis would be severe, if not, final. Our methods of instruction were intense, but realistic and safe.
Now, at long last, six years of denials can now be swept aside, and we can say definitively: America engaged in torture and legalized it through paperwork.
Despite all the gyrations – the ducking, dodging and hiding from the facts – there is no way to say that these people were not authorizing torture. Worse yet, they seem to have not cared a wit that these techniques came from the actual manuals of communist, fascist and totalitarian torturers. It is now clear how clearly – how coldly – Bush’s lawyers could authorize individual techniques from past torture chambers, claim they came from the safe SERE program, and not even wet their beds at night. That many U.S. service members over the years have died as a result of these same techniques was never considered.
This is about more than one tactic, waterboarding, that has gotten the lion’s share of attention. As a general rule, interrogations without clearly defined legal limits are brutal. Particularly when they have an imperative to get information out of a captive immediately. Wearing prisoners out to the point of mental breakdown; forcing confessions through sleep deprivation; inflicting pain by standing for days on end (not minutes like in SERE); beating them against flexing walls until concussion; applying humiliation slaps (two at a time), and repeating these methods over and over.
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2009/04/19/2009-04-19_why_the_bush_torture_architects_must_be_prosecuted_a_counterterror_expert_speaks.html
April 20th, 2009 at 3:15 amPete, that’s not rambling, that’s WRITING!
And JMOHR, wow. Wonderful to hear the clear-cut truth about the GC. Thanks for explaining it all, too bad that Gunnysack can’t absorb it.
And,, ladies… love you all. As much as an ant can. Are insect names passe’? Shall I go back to plain old SKdeA?
April 20th, 2009 at 3:22 amTrooper at #183:
The Israelis are not the Jewish people anymore than Al Quaeda is the Muslim people. Take your race baiting elsewhere.
April 20th, 2009 at 3:24 amOh ok.The attacks of 9-11 were all our fault.We failed as a nation to provide security to all the countries that we have given millions of dollars to for support of their failed healthcare,farming,infrastructure,government, etc.Ya it’s all our fault!Go ahead blame us.Buy a Chinese car and see where your money is going.Then tell me why you don’t have a job,car,or a house to live in.
April 20th, 2009 at 3:38 amWe failed to protect ourselves. What the hell are you carrying on about, GUNNEROCK?
April 20th, 2009 at 4:05 amGUNNEROCK Says:
Oh ok.The attacks of 9-11 were all our fault.We failed as a nation to provide security to all the countries that we have given millions of dollars to for support of their failed healthcare,farming,infrastructure,government, etc.Ya it’s all our fault!Go ahead blame us.Buy a Chinese car and see where your money is going.Then tell me why you don’t have a job,car,or a house to live in.
————————————————————
…and don’t forget Bush borrowed $30 billion plus dollars from the Chinese, are you shopping at Wal-Mart yet?
April 20th, 2009 at 4:15 amThe US does not import or sell Chinese cars but we know that the Chinese has vast assets here in America which they are keeping an eye on thanks to Bush. And the reason most Americans are outta work and have lost their homes and seen their nest eggs dwindle is because of the outsourcing of American jobs for cheap labor and Bush’s bad policies in de-regulating the markets for 8 years with little or no oversight.
WHAT A BUNCH OF IDIOTS!!!
April 20th, 2009 at 4:42 amyou people do not appreciate your incredible country!
I just wish, each of you could live for a year in the Soviet Union with 1 Political Party! THEn YOU WOULD KNOW ABOUT ‘TORTUE’, ‘HUMAN RIGHTS’, ETC.
it is just unbelievable to see what is going on here!
YOU ARE A SHORT STEP AWAY FROM A LOVELY SOCIALIST COUNTRY
I ESCAPED FROM!!! THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS TO BRAINS OF WELL FED PEOPLE WHO NEVER REALLY EXPERIENCED A REAL CRISIS IN THEIR LIVES… SAD SAD SAD! i GUESS WHEN YOU COME FROM A COUNTRY WHERE YOUR GRANDPARENTS WERE KILLED BY NAZIS, AND YOUR RELATIVES PROSECUTED BY SOCIALIST GOVERNMENT, YOU HAVR QUITE A DIFFEREN VIEW.
I WOULD NEVER EVER IN MY LIFE COULD IMAGINE SUCH HATRAGE, DIVISION, ANGER AND INTOLERANCE HERE IN THE US.
WAKE UP!
well, here is what john yoo wrote, about
torture, and assassination..
check this story out for yourself,
before trying to tear each other’s heads off:
http://zfacts.com/p/100.html
April 20th, 2009 at 4:57 amcheck out that website,
it also has a lot to do,
with economics, health, environmental issues, oil and gas companys, and all kinds of stuff to check out.
read on, everyone ..
read and learn.
we learn something new everyday..
never ceases to amaze me too…
April 20th, 2009 at 5:02 amtravka63 Says:
So let me guess, travka63, you want G.W. Bush back in office.
April 20th, 2009 at 5:09 amAfter all, he did have a high approval rate in Poland. Is that where you ‘escaped’ from?
If so, go back there….AND STOP SHOUTING!
travka63 Says:
WHAT A BUNCH OF IDIOTS!!!
April 20th, 2009 at 5:24 amyou people do not appreciate your incredible country!
I just wish, each of you could live for a year in the Soviet Union with 1 Political Party! THEn YOU WOULD KNOW ABOUT ‘TORTUE’, ‘HUMAN RIGHTS’, ETC.
it is just unbelievable to see what is going on here! YOU ARE A SHORT STEP AWAY FROM A LOVELY SOCIALIST COUNTRY
I ESCAPED FROM!!! THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS TO BRAINS OF WELL FED PEOPLE WHO NEVER REALLY EXPERIENCED A REAL CRISIS IN THEIR LIVES… SAD SAD SAD! i GUESS WHEN YOU COME FROM A COUNTRY WHERE YOUR GRANDPARENTS WERE KILLED BY NAZIS, AND YOUR RELATIVES PROSECUTED BY SOCIALIST GOVERNMENT, YOU HAVR QUITE A DIFFEREN VIEW. I WOULD NEVER EVER IN MY LIFE COULD IMAGINE SUCH HATRAGE, DIVISION, ANGER AND INTOLERANCE HERE IN THE US.
WAKE UP!
————————————————————-
I’m sorry that your grandparents were killed by Nazis. But keep this in mind for 8 years we had one political party of “no” the Republicans who tortured people,circumvented the US laws and left this great nation in dire straits and who want to run this great nation further into the ground by using fear, lies and hate to pander for votes all on misinformed information about the actual state of the US. America already has a “quasi-socialist” government i.e. social security benefits when you retire, medicaid and medicare, unemployment insurance just to name a few as most developed countries have. But in the last 8 years, the Republicans tore apart the social and moral fabric of the US, all in the name of profits that only benefited a small few but robbed quit a few. America did wake-up to the fact that the Republicans (America’s Taliban) destroyed our great nation and ruined our moral reputation abroad. America lived under a “Totalitarian” style regime for 8 years and most people here in America were sick and tired of that. Now can you somewhat understand why there is a current division here in America? Bare in mind that “entitlements” all started under the Bush Administration.
GUNNEROCK Says:
——————————————————————————–
Oh ok.The attacks of 9-11 were all our fault.We failed as a nation to provide security to all the countries that we have given millions of dollars to for support of their failed healthcare,farming,infrastructure,government, etc.Ya it’s all our fault!Go ahead blame us.Buy a Chinese car and see where your money is going.Then tell me why you don’t have a job,car,or a house to live in.
——–
Just got here, so forgive me if I’m not following the 9-11 gist; I’ll go upthread soon and look around, though.
I’m not sure who the “us” is who have you so worked up, but I am intrigued by the reference to the “Chinese car”. Since I have your permission to buy one, I’d at least like to drive one first to, you know, to try it out before I decide, so if you would be so kind I’d like to ask you a few questions.
What is the brand name of this Chinese car?
Do they have a web site? Link to it?
I have a nice house, not extravagant, though certainly more than adequate for my needs. I’m constantly working to improve it, though, so I can move into a nicer (wink, wink) neighborhood.
Also have more than one car. Do the Chinese dealers take trade-ins?
Don’t have a job unless I want to work–semi-retired with a union pension. Good thing, too, since Shrub trashed the economy and the wingnuts are trying to bust the unions (See Free Choice Act).
Looking forward to more information on those Chinese cars, though.
Thanks.
April 20th, 2009 at 5:38 amfollow the money
Great article but if that officer and the Bush Administration by-passed the Geneva convention, than what was the whole purpose of the War Crimes Act that was passed by congress in 1996 if Bush ignored it?
April 20th, 2009 at 5:38 amhttp://impeachforpeace.org/evidence/pages/torture.html
Varanus komodoensis @ 296,
Wow, you certainly have lived a colorful life, with persecution by both Nazi and Communists and all. Just can’t please everyone, I guess.
It’s obvious from your posts that you hated the Soviet Union and I’m glad you escaped. Since you are certain we are ” A SHORT STEP AWAY FROM A LOVELY SOCIALIST COUNTRY” could you tell us where you will live next now that you have experienced “SUCH HATRAGE, DIVISION, ANGER AND INTOLERANCE HERE IN THE US”?
Thanks so much and keep in touch.
April 20th, 2009 at 5:49 amIt’s important to point out that the US like all countries runs on power not justice, rule of law, nor any high minded idea – you really need to stop lying to yourself, if you think that people born in the US are any different or better than people born any where else, you’ve drank the Cool Aid the right wing / white racists have drank – the only thing they and people who feel that dominance is the only way to live with others understand is violence and being heaped in piles of corpses then burned is the only way to deal with them. For those who advocate non-violence you are just copping out, really there’s a time to kill, and killing people who will stop at nothing to torture and kill others because they feel like it is perfectly fine.
Also, think about what they say, killing them is good for them, they give a never ending list of excuses why the world is so dangerous and why they must go on and destroy everything they have created a fear of inside of themselves, so killing them puts them out of their misery – they can join the rest of their make believe cast of characters in the big war movie in the Sky and the rest of us can create a productive society without them holding us back with their brainless fears.
Look at their comments, they don’t WANT to get along with nor work with you, they want to destroy everything they cannot control – if you let them, then you are as much to blame as they are. They hate everything they can’t control and push under, they like torturing people, they like breaking the law and feeling they can’t be prosecuted for it, when are progressive people going to stop coddling these killers and come to the Truth that the only way to deal with them is to just get rid of them before they kill the rest of us in their lust for control?
I don’t know what’s worse the right wingers who are hell bent on destroying everything they can’t control or the lefties that refuse to confront the need for a violent end to them, at all costs even the reality that stares them in the face day in and out.
You need to be ready, because if we do what we must which is walk away from our corporate jobs and stop buying useless things, and take back our lives by investing in ourselves and each other instead of their wealth schemes, they will turn on us once they see we have stepped out of their system, if you aren’t ready for a violent defense, then you don’t deserve to live and they’ll enjoy killing you. Fighting is a normal process when defending what’s right, stop cowering from it and claiming some fake morality.
There’s nothing wrong with war as long as you conduct it on the right people, and that would be those that advocate the killing of civilians who have done nothing – it makes sense to kill people who support needless wars of aggression, to save the people they target and save our needed resources. As long as they feel they can do so and get away with it, they will, if the rest of us refuse to stop them, then we are complicit in their murder. We are beyond protests and verbal denouncements, if we still refuse to act with needed action, we are complicit.
So am I advocating marauding violence, no – it’s simple stop supporting corporate elites, stop working for them, grow your own food, stop paying the banks, take over your own land and work for yourselves and your local communities, don’t pay taxes, don’t support the military nor the Police state, if anyone comes calling to take you down, be ready to fight and defend yourselves. These right wingers can talk all they want, if they have to fight in and pay for all their wars themselves, it changes everything – they’ll start attacking people if it comes to that and that’s when fighting back gets rid of them, either way they are put in their place.
As far as Obama, the government, laws, etc – it’s all a Lie – it works for those who are in power that’s it, if you think otherwise you are lying to yourself, stop it and start acting by getting your life in order – all talk about justice and laws is only to waste your time hoping while the people in power are using that time to secure their provisions. If you don’t take control of your necessities, you’ll be left out in the cold, starving – you need to be getting ready and stop arguing with these flunkies, they’re gone let them to their own devices they don’t deserve any better.
April 20th, 2009 at 5:51 amwoodguy
I think you got me mixed up you should have directed your post at 299 to post number 292 which is what I was responding to.
April 20th, 2009 at 5:57 amMy sincere apologies, Varanus komodoensis @ 296,
My above comment was directed to travka63.
So sorry. It’s very late here on the Left Coast and I am weary.
April 20th, 2009 at 5:57 amI’m so glad you are still here to accept my apology. It’s been a long and contentious day.
I am intrigued by your story and am proceeding upthread to see more of it. I rarely start at the bottom of a thead, but it is late and 300 posts were too much.
Again, so sorry.
April 20th, 2009 at 6:00 amwoodguy
Thanks, I know it has been a cray day on these blogs today.
April 20th, 2009 at 6:03 amA short aside that is amusing now, but really was the coup de grace.
I was working about three or four individual threads today, an indulgence for which I rarely have time. I took a break to make a quick beer run and was very nearly attacked by a 120 pound Rottweiller in the back of a pick-up next to where I parked. It’s funny now, but not conducive to joviality at the time. The expression “I’ve only got one nerve and you’re getting on it” sprang to mind.
Anyway, I’m headed upthread again for a short time and so far am enjoying your posts from earlier this …morning…twilight zone …whatever.
One last question, if you’ll indulge me: do you come to this site often? (wow, sounds like a pick-up line at a bar, heh), because I don’t remember you from any other threads in my sporadic postings in the past.
Stay safe and again thanks for understanding the misunderstanding.
April 20th, 2009 at 6:24 amwoodguy
Yeah I do come to this site often, I had to change names as someone namejacked me before on this site. I’m a staunch anti-bush, anti-fox news, I protested and detested every single one of Bush’s policies. I’m earning a Phd. at Columbia U at the moment.
April 20th, 2009 at 6:31 amVaranus komodoensis,
Good luck with your degree; I like the way you stated that,” I am earning”. One last question before I collapse in a heap.
What field of study?
Very nice conversing with you. Will look forward to future conversations.
Stay safe.
April 20th, 2009 at 6:45 amI can’t stand neither Democrats nor Republicans – too much
preoccupation with who is the right and who is wrong one, too much finger pointing and blaming each other.
I guess, the fact that America is so far away from the rest of the World, never had any wars on its territory, obvious lack of knowledge (or interest!) about the World History, along with a relatively high standard of living even among the
poor(!) creates a unique vision of the world.
Most of the people who grew up here never experienced any other kind of life and did not live under any different regime, this is why you sincerely believe that
‘America lived under a “Totalitarian” style regime’ for the past 8 years.
I am sorry, but for some of us it does sound funny, when someone is using words ‘Totalitarian’,
‘oppression’, ’socialism’ without really knowing HOW IT FEELS.
At best, knowing about it from the books.
It is surprising, that there is no interest to hear the people who came here from other countries, who experienced different kind of life and DO have something to say…
It is shocking to us (first generation immigrants) – how much Americans are taking everything for granted – their freedoms, comforts of life, opportunities… Unbelievable! This
is why I just wish that everybody could have klived another reality, even for a short while!
I can’t believe that I am particiapting in this discussions – what the point? I am too busy working and paying for my child’s college – after all I came here to give her a life that I did not have.
However, what I hear and see happening around (class war fare, haterage, and a charismatic leader who wants to ’spread the wealth’…) sends shivers down my spine: is is
all sounds TOO FAMILIAR, too close to home. I am not kidding. This is all might sound fresh new and exciting here (about the change, etc.) BUT this is exactly how it all started in Russia 100 years ago. I know, there will be an immediate posting ridiculing me and my experiences, because from here, from American land things like ‘Russia’, revolution, socialism – are such an abstraction…
It seesm that all these abstractions are knocking on our doors here.
What comes from the media, as well as stream of policies and ideas coming from the President and some other ‘enthusiasts’ leads in the direction where past 8 years will seem
like a paradise.
There is no ideal social structure, no ideal governmnet
(other than ‘Utopia’), there always will be things that are wrong, unjust and require improvement.
But, believe it or not, what we have is as good as it gets.
I wonder, why millions of people from all over the world are so desperately want to get legally or illeagaly to this evil un-fair country, where people are torched, and wealthy are so discustingly wealthy,and everything is so bad?
For some reason, I do not remember long lines waiting to enter
ANY of the ‘fair socialist’ countries.
Just think, this country is less than 300 years old and with all its ills is is the strongest, most prosperous in the world…I guess something during all these years has been
done right.
And I am sorry, but I refuse to think that it is all only due to the Democrats. There is a lot of talk about human rights etc., but it is ONLY thanks to Regan and Thatcher that numerous Russian families could escape our socialist paradise.
Now it seems like it is coming here… If anybody is interested, I can share a lot of useful information about
fair society ruled by one party where everybody is equal, the are no rich and everything is run be the government.
I can share my first hand colorful experiences about hospital rooms occupied by 12 people, lack of medications, empty shelves in the grocery stores, catastrophic theft, corruption, and so desirable ‘equality’…in misery.
But, I have to admit, there were no “profits that only benefited a small few” – because NOBODY benefited since EVERYBODY was POOR.
I know, you believe that it CAN NOT happen here!
Good luck to all of us!
April 20th, 2009 at 7:01 am308. travka63 Says: I am not kidding. This is all might sound fresh new and exciting here (about the change, etc.) BUT this is exactly how it all started in Russia 100 years ago. I know, there will be an immediate posting ridiculing me and my experiences, because from here, from American land things like ‘Russia’, revolution, socialism – are such an abstraction…
Thinly veiled bullsh¡t, working republican talking points into a bogus post. Suddenly, with the republicans out of power, the sockpuppets are crying bipartisanship and socialism.
Thanking Reagan is the biggest tip-off. No native-born or second generation Russian thanks a foreign leader for humiliating his homeland.
travka63 Says, you’re just one more lying sack ‘o sh¡t conservative trying to rebrand his party’s massive incompetence. Coward.
April 20th, 2009 at 7:22 amPete said; Sorry gang! I didn’t realize I had rambled on so long
Don’t apologise, it didn’t read like rambling to me.
It read like truth.
April 20th, 2009 at 7:37 amhanshiro the antlion
You said it pal.
When a teabagger comes in here talking about they don’t see a difference between dems and teabaggers I know for a fact they want to pull dems down in the sewer with repugs.
April 20th, 2009 at 7:39 amBold font is really convincing.
hanshiro the antlion, do you see conspiracy here?
Hysterical!
Your words “…Thanking Reagan is the biggest tip-off. No thanks a foreign leader for humiliating his homeland…”
only prove my point about endless ignorance and unfortunate number of brainwashed people.
How many of ‘native-born or second generation Russians’
do you know to make such a bold idiotic statement?
We, all of us ‘native-born or second generation Russians’
would rot in our ‘homeland’ if Regan didn’t help USSR collapse.
But why would you care? You’d better stand for the rights of a ‘person’ who was a mastermind of slottering of 3000 of your people.
I am, on the other hand, start getting a feeling that this post is bogus and created and perpetuated by the ’sockpuppets’ that are not really interested in anything, but rather scared shitless of Republicans who are seem to be in minority nowdays, have one channel on TV, but apparently powerful…
You are calling me “lying sack ‘o sh¡t conservative trying to rebrand his party’s massive incompetence. Coward.”
WHY?
For what, for having a different angle that most of you in this post?
Very intellegent argument.
And do you have anyhting really to say OTHER than spit hate?
On the other hand, your ‘friendly’ respond to diversity of opinions made me seriously consider to mobilize
as many ‘native-born or second generation Russians’
and other Eastern Europeans as I can to convince some people that they live in the fantasy world.
Sorry, if if will not benefit ‘one and only righteous’
party…
You make me sick. Enjoy agreeing with each other!
April 20th, 2009 at 7:59 amwhat a major waste of time.
April 20th, 2009 at 8:00 amDeconstructing the sockpuppet travka63
Whining about bipartisanship:
Funny how fast the out-of-power republicans wanted to ‘let bygones be bygones. Bæstards!
bush wasn’t so bad, Obama will be worse:
bush turned America into a torture state and wasted billions in an illegal war. Funny our ‘resident Russki’ doesn’t mention the peril of rendition…
Reagan:
(As if “human rights etc.,” can be expressed so flippantly from someone supposedly with first-hand knowledge of repressive regimes….)
Fear of socialism/’Spreading the Wealth:’
Fear of socialized medicine:
The Fear factor about non-republican government:
Nevermind that our ‘resident Russki’ doesn’t remember how the past 8 years was a concerted attempt to cling to one-party rule via schemes like the K-Street project.
It’s so easy to spot the shameless talking points since the scumbag republicans like sockpuppet travka63 don’t change their tune, they just recycle the same incompetent crap that got them tossed from power. Doesn’t matter how well you decorate the box, the stink of sh¡t will always permeate the ribbons and wrapping paper.
Oh, occasional misspellinks are nice tuch, comrade…what is russian word for dou(hebag?
Idiot-ski.
April 20th, 2009 at 8:15 amGeorge Bush, John Ashcroft, Dick Cheney, Condi Rice, and others knew 9/11 was coming and prepared for it. First, George Bush refused to sign the International Criminal Court, because by doing so would mean that he and his cohorts couldn’t get away with torture and other fun stuff when they used 9/11 to illegally go into Iraq and occupy this country.
John Ashcroft refused to fly commercially during the summer of 2001. He refused to tell the media why.
Condi Rice after 9/11 was telling those around her to get some Cipro and then…..the anthrax attacks happened!
Dick Cheney since the 1990’s wanted to get back into Iraq and his PNAC groupies said that what our country needed was another ‘Pearl Harbor-like attack’, so they could use our psychological reaction to 9/11 to convince the nation that going into Iraq while giving up our rights is patriotic!
Cheney told our F15-16’s to stand down the morning of 9/11 through his SS/Norad. Cheney created his Shadow Government the morning of 9/11 and he was the president of it thereafter. He even had a death squad at his disposal to carry out attacks (anthrax attacks which came from Fort Detrick) which was a squad outside the realm of our government!
April 20th, 2009 at 8:26 amTRAITORS ALL OF THEM! ARREST THEM!
The problem you wouldn’t understand is that Reagan started the collapse of the USA while the USSR was collapsing. Was it our responsibility to keep you from rotting in your homeland. I don’t think so. And while you believe you know so much you give us no credit for knowing what has happened to this country since Reagan began handing the country over to the most wealthy among us.
Perhaps you would have a little broader knowledge of reality in this country if you’d start getting your news from somewhere OTHER than Fox News.
April 20th, 2009 at 8:29 amFunny that’s just what I was thinking about your post.
April 20th, 2009 at 8:29 amBRAVO!!!!
Geneius!
I am afraid that we do not have an appropriate word in russian for you, hanshiro the antlion!
May be ‘pridurok’, or ‘bolnoi na golovu’, no, it doesn’t really do justice – hey anybody who understands russian, help me out with the right word! Even ‘moguchiy russkiy yasik’ is
insufficient here. Thank you for a good laugh!
Applause! You ‘deconstructed’ me allright! WOW, it is really getting entertaining! Are they teaching it at school here?
Major case of conspiracy paranoya!
On the other hand, WHAT ELSE can you say without embarassing yourself even more?
Let me guess, hanshiro the antlion teaches critical thinking/writing/reading in some elite college?
It just reminds me daughter’s ‘best’ school papers where she is desperately trying to make her point.
Thanks for a great laugh! Have a good day!
April 20th, 2009 at 8:33 amP.S. has it occured to you that you may be making fool of yourself? I will make sure to share this exchange with my fellow Russki!!!
Poshel k chertu kretin! – I am sure you can deconstruct this too!
travka63, there are several things that native-born or first generation people do when involved in any confrontation or disagreement.
You did none of those things. You’re a fraud.
April 20th, 2009 at 8:36 am318.travka63 Says: Let me guess, hanshiro the antlion teaches critical thinking/writing/reading in some elite college?
I’m sure to you basic comprehension skills seem an elite resource.
Nekulturny…
April 20th, 2009 at 8:44 amPhoto Caption: A young Nick Nolte explains the consequences of not prosecuting torturers.
April 20th, 2009 at 8:49 amThe worse is that, if torturers aren’t prosecuted now, when Republicans return to power, they’ll feel validated, and will engage in worse actions. And soon or later, things will end catastrophycally, for every country in the world.
April 20th, 2009 at 8:55 amDear Doodlebug Shayne, would you please direct me to the ‘right’ source of information where I can get
‘a little broader knowledge of reality in this country’ ?
You are absolutely right that it wasn’t your ‘responsibility to keep me from rotting’ in my homeland, as much as it wasn’t anybody’s responsibility to keep millions of Jews from burning in Nazi Stoves, and millions of people across Europe
to be slottered as meat. You are right, it is there, in Europe, who cares? Ofcourse, while it all is happening so far away, untill it comes home and bombs start falling right on your head while you peacefully cheweing on juicy McDonald and
leisurely discussing the wrongs of the world.
I understand, this seems to be the mentality. Is this what the ‘correct’ sources of information ‘inform’ you – mind your own backyard, hell with the world? But, of course, not when it affects you personally! What is the tragedy if people rot somewhere? Tragedy is when ‘the country is handed over to the most wealthy among us.’
April 20th, 2009 at 9:00 amHi travka63
April 20th, 2009 at 9:05 amWhat does the 63 indicate?
Hi dbadass,
April 20th, 2009 at 9:06 amI assume that you know what travka indicate?
dbadass,
April 20th, 2009 at 9:10 amThereis a mystery expert here – hanshiro the antlion – who will be happy to deconstruct the ‘hidden meaning’ of my username. And some knowledge of ‘foreign language’ shoud be handy.
travka63
April 20th, 2009 at 9:11 amIn my experience hanshiro usually is pretty on target but that is neither her nor there. I was interested in talking directly to you.
travka63,
Wonder why you project phoniness and insincerity (beyond the obvious intentional misspellins and fake stilted grammar)?
How do you explain this: “I guess, the fact that America is so far away from the rest of the World, never had any wars on its territory, obvious lack of knowledge (or interest!) about the World History. ”
Hmmm,……lesseee here.
1) America (US only or does this include all of America–North,Central, and South) is so far away from the rest of the world.”
Well, not really, we are connected to the other aforementioned “Americas” as well as Canada. If you care to describe a country “so far away from the rest of the World” you might choose Australia. In addition, you have heard of airplanes, the internet, etc., no? How about intercontinental ballistic missiles? A globetrotter like you should probably be up to speed with this kinda stuff, no?
2) “never had any wars on its territory” Ever hear of the Civil War, in which 600,000 Americans were killed— those on the side of the Union true patriots? Oh, and Pearl Harbor?
3) “obvious lack of knowledge (or interest!) about the World History.” Don’t mean to be redundant, but see #2 above.
That’s all for now, but please don’t project such insincerity and obvious stereotypes and then try to play the misunderstood victim unless you enjoy being ridiculed in public.
Later.
April 20th, 2009 at 9:11 amgrass…
April 20th, 2009 at 9:13 am321:
April 20th, 2009 at 9:13 amI had the same initial response but couldn’t pull an amusing statement together. Well done…
This is unexpected. Is this a joke? somebody is interested in talking to ME ?
Apparently, you guys all know each other, and now I feel that I crash somebody’s party…
I promise, I will get out of here right away! I’ve just stumbled on this gathering by chance.
April 20th, 2009 at 9:16 amtravka63
April 20th, 2009 at 9:22 amWhy get right out of here? Why not stay and share a few things about yourself? Shall we start with the 63?
travla63,
“you peacefully cheweing on juicy McDonald”
Now I know you’re a phony. I’ve never had a “juicy McDonald” in my life……unless of course…….damn it! She promised not to tell.
April 20th, 2009 at 9:25 amwoodguy, I am endlessly flattered that my grammar comes out as intentional.
Here is resonse to your points:
——————–
1) America (US only or does this include all of America–North,Central, and South) is so far away from the rest of the world.”
—————————
NO, No, I meant North America (minus Canda),the USA.
—————————————
Well, not really, we are connected to the other aforementioned “Americas” as well as Canada. If you care to describe a country “so far away from the rest of the World” you might choose Australia. In addition, you have heard of airplanes, the internet, etc., no? How about intercontinental ballistic missiles? A globetrotter like you should probably be up to speed with this kinda stuff, no?
————————————–
- Great point! Interesting, this is exactly what I found shocking that with all current methods of communication (airplanes, internet, tv, etc.) it seems that almost no information about outside world ever reached most of the population in North America: I was asked if there are refrigerators in Russia, if there are museums there,how people live in such cold climate,etc. So, I guess it is the fact that people do not care to know that Russia is a HUGE country with 6 time zones and a great variety of climates, with one of the world reachest culture,history, and art… I guess it made me feel that US is ’so far away from the rest of the World’. I did not mean litelarally, in terms of the distance.
And I am a globetrotter. I traveled the world many many times more than most of the Americans I know. We did not have this luxury back home you know!
—————————–
2) “never had any wars on its territory” Ever hear of the Civil War, in which 600,000 Americans were killed— those on the side of the Union true patriots? Oh, and Pearl Harbor?
—————————————
Sure, Civil War, 600,000 lives are way too many.
People ware fighting for their freedom.
And I am grateful for it, because, thanks to that war
this country exists!
And Perl Harbor is a tragedy! For a young country is is significant.
But I guess 20 million lives taken by Nazis who crossed the borders and attacked people sleeping in their beds on their land… numerous family memebers killed, war known not through books, but trough blood and tears around…
WWI is not something that affected me so much, but cholera, starvation,… I guess the amount of suffering (not counting Stalinism) in UNCOMPARABLE to many exepriences.
———————————————–
3) “obvious lack of knowledge (or interest!) about the World History.” Don’t mean to be redundant, but see #2 above.
That’s all for now, but please don’t project such insincerity and obvious stereotypes and then try to play the misunderstood victim unless you enjoy being ridiculed in public.
————————–
As to the stereotypes, I think nobody can beat people from
the msot advanced country in the world who sees all Russians
in ‘babushka’s shawls dring vodka during year long winter!
C’mon, I was hoping I won’t have to go to stereotypes!
And, at last, to rididcule in public, seems like a favorite pastime of some individuals here. I don’ blame them for it,
April 20th, 2009 at 9:51 amit sure the easiest way to feel mighty about yourself!
I’d like to assure you that 63 doesnt have anyhting to do with John F. Kennedy assassination.
April 20th, 2009 at 9:59 amWho said it did? Wanna quite f ucking around and just explain grass63? Or if you prefer we can talk about other silly shit…
April 20th, 2009 at 10:02 amMy parents were smoking pot in 1963 :) how about that ?
April 20th, 2009 at 10:05 amWell it would be better if you weren’t making it up as you go along…
April 20th, 2009 at 10:16 amIt seems we lost most of the audience here, I don’t hear screaming and yelling and heavy breathing and eleborate verbal exercises any more.
I think that I do sound like Russian after all :)
Wow, I can’t believe I stayed here for so long!!!
Nasty insomnia turned into invigorating experience.
You,dbadass, forgive me, do not seem to belong to this crowd.
Too friendly, watch out, you might be expelled!
But frankly, why are people so angry at each other?
I afraid to start it all over again, forget it.
last question before I take on the day,
April 20th, 2009 at 10:26 amwhat dbadass mean? :)
Does it have anything to do with DBA (like Data BAse Administrator)?
338. dbadass Says: Well it would be better if you weren’t making it up as you go along…
He is indeed. He is no Russki and his claim, followed by pretty much a wikipedia excerpt just makes him all the phonier; inconsistent misspellings aside. (tip to lying scum travka63: When certain nationalities learn languages they make rather consistent errors in diction and transposition.) You do not do this nor do you behave as a native or first-born generation individual when being confronted, yet claim that you’re “world traveled:”
Lying, shameless, lying conservative sock-monkey.
April 20th, 2009 at 10:38 amhanshiro the antlion, you are fun! Though it seesm that you ran out of steam!
April 20th, 2009 at 10:52 amYou seem such a great expert in ‘certain nationalities’, nuances of ‘diction and transposition’, do you mind please sharing how ‘native or first-born generation individual’ behaves ‘when being confronted’ ???? I am intriqued. I guess there is some kind of manual in which I don’t fit :(
As to the ‘wikipedia excerpt’, I am sorry that my English still so unsophisticated… I will work on it. Actually, this whole writing exercise WAS a good practice.
341. travka63 Says: do you mind please sharing how ‘native or first-born generation individual’ behaves ‘when being confronted’ ?
There is no manual, but behaviors endemic to those learning another language or dabbling in another culture. There is consistency in diction and even in mistakes. You reveal none of these, just haphazard sprinkling of misspellings and sentence structure that only expose your purposeful deceit.
In other words, your attempt to appear multilingual is an amateur’s interpretation/impression, not an actual reality.
Notwithstanding that Russians are a proud people. Proud of their heritage, philosophy and literature, yet, you make absolutely no reference to any Russian literature or philosophy to illustrate your point whatsoever, all the more stark since you’re purporting to pontificate on philosophical issues. Home-land pride always peeks through…
..except in your case. Because you’re a fraud.
April 20th, 2009 at 11:12 amlast question before I take on the day,
April 20th, 2009 at 11:30 amwhat dbadass mean? :)
—
Nothing complicated just a nickname I picked up along the way..
Obama turned out to be Bush Light!
April 20th, 2009 at 11:51 amVaranus komodoensis Says:
ElBruce
With all due respect but I think you missed my point, why should the Obama Administration go after the low-level CIA agents when they got their orders from the top?
It’s not either/or. It’s illegal to issue such an order. It’s also illegal to follow it. The illegality of one in no way exonerates the other. Rational people (aka. Dems) don’t do the finger-pointing thing.
I’d be much more inclined to give a pass to the soldiers at Abu Ghraib. I doubt if many 19-yo grunts really know much about international law. But CIA agents? That’s supposed to be a fairly tough job interview to pass. The nature of CIA work involves getting into the grey areas of international law consantly. I expect them to know it, or to suffer the consequences of defying it.
.
travka63 Says:
WHAT A BUNCH OF IDIOTS!!!
you people do not appreciate your incredible country!
Actually, we do. That’s why we’re trying to keep it that way. Holding people accountable for their actions is precisely how totalitarian regimes are avoided. What we don’t do is take our freedoms for granted and thus risk losing them, which is what you seem to be advocating.
You are supporting an administration that has been behaving like the regimes that you (claim to) despise. You are complaining about dissent against those illegal acts. Whatever “cover story” you are presenting to us does not excuse the fact that you are acting as a cheerleader for war crimes.
.
travka63 Says:
I can’t stand neither Democrats nor Republicans – too much
preoccupation with who is the right and who is wrong one, too much finger pointing and blaming each other.
We call it “holding people accountable.” Lack of accountability leads to tyranny.
.
travka63 Says:
I am sorry, but for some of us it does sound funny, when someone is using words ‘Totalitarian’,
‘oppression’, ’socialism’ without really knowing HOW IT FEELS.
Political terms aren’t defined by how they feel. But I’d like to sit you down with a former Guantanamo detainee so you could discuss whether their feelings pass muster. Maybe then you’d be convinced.
.
travka63 Says:
However, what I hear and see happening around (class war fare, haterage, and a charismatic leader who wants to ’spread the wealth’…) sends shivers down my spine: is is all sounds TOO FAMILIAR, too close to home. I am not kidding. This is all might sound fresh new and exciting here (about the change, etc.) BUT this is exactly how it all started in Russia 100 years ago.
You are a poor student of Russian history, I’m afraid. Obama’s passing mention of “spread the wealth” in reference to slightly increasing the top rate income tax has no comparison with Lenin’s stump speeches in Red Square circa 1912. When you hear Obama start talking about taking total state ownership of all wealth and industries, then we can entertain such notions. But Communism didn’t start with creeping amounts of support for socialist policies. It used the strongest and starkest possible language, from the very beginning.
Firstly, I find it unlikely that someone who was personally familiar with (and against) life under dictatorship would be vocally defending the illegal actions of the Bush administration. Secondly, I don’t give a rodent’s rectum; I’m not going to agree with you that wrong is right due to some feeling of respect for your claimed dead homies or whatever. Thirdly, wingnuts make up bio’s all the time in order to try to guilt us into agreeing with their insanity. I maintain that you are Richard B. Cheney with a laptop. I have supplied precisely as much evidence for my version of your biography as you have for yours. More in fact, since your very thesis here seeks to defend tyrannical measures rather than reflect the attitudes of someone who has been subject to them.
April 20th, 2009 at 11:53 amok, now I see where you are coming from.
So do you say that I sound like a native speaker?
But, a poorly educated one?
You are remarkably confident in your statements. They sound academic, but your conclusions have nothing to do with
the reality. Did they teach you that sometime a poor spelling is not so much reflection of a language mastery, but rather
a sign of bad typing tecniques. When someone, who is not a great typist AND not a native speaker is emotional and rushing to spill out his thoughts (especially in hostile surrounding), these *inconsistent* spelling mistakes are very common.
Do you mind me giving you a couple of useful tips?
I mean, for the future, to be a real PRO in spotting the real fraud right away.
You see inconsistency with the misspelling, but you don’t analyze this information correctly.
- From my writing, one can see that a person learned spoken English sufficiently enough to navigate, but does not use writing very often.
- The vocabulary points to some reading in English, however, general style and clumsy sentences are defenitely indicate lack of formal ‘reading/writing’ language education.
MOST IMPORTANT TIP to spot out Russians: They ALWAYS have problems with articles (’a’ and ‘the’) This is the most telling litttle secret, they almost never know when to use it and always mix them since in Russian there is no equivalent to it.
- Another thing, the structure of my sentences are often a direct translation from russian (because I still think in russian, and then translate it)
And lastly, you are right about Russian pride. It seems like you are talking about Russians based on Doctor Zhivago.
The russains of the Soviet Era I know mostly express embarassment and anger for having leave their homeland.
Russian classics we studied in school were ’selected’ and ‘approved’ by Department of Education, and we were told how to interpret them ‘correctly’. Many books were banned, so it was mostly Maxim Gorkiy who we read, and memoirs of Breznev (’Malaya Zemlya’, ‘Vozrogdenie’, ‘Celina’).
As to philosophy, we had to study ‘Marxism Leninism
Philosophy’, ‘History Of Communist Party’, and majority of works by Lenin, Marx, Engels, so…. sorry,hanshiro the antlion, that I am not very proud of it!
It is excatly the distaste for this philosophy
April 20th, 2009 at 12:04 pm“ot kazdogo po sposobnostyam, kazdomy po potrebnostyam”
that brought me into this converstaion to begin with, so I guess, I do reference it to illustrate my point!
346. travka63 Says: ok, now I see where you are coming from.
I can state with absolute conviction: Not in this lifetime, Bozo-ski.
So do you say that I sound like a native speaker?
But, a poorly educated one?
No, you sound like a middle-school production of “The Hunt For Red October.”
Do you mind me giving you a couple of useful tips?
I mean, for the future, to be a real PRO in spotting the real fraud right away.
Sure. Look in the mirror.
You see inconsistency with the misspelling, but you don’t analyze this information correctly.
- From my writing, one can see that a person learned spoken English sufficiently enough to navigate, but does not use writing very often.
My, your writing, spelling and diction have improved markedly. Impressive, considering how stilted your initial posts were. Yet, by the end of this last post, it’s back to the Yakov Smirnoff parody.
And lastly, you are right about Russian pride. It seems like you are talking about Russians based on Doctor Zhivago.
The [russains] of the Soviet Era I know mostly express embarassment and anger for having leave their homeland.
Russian classics we studied in school were ’selected’ and ‘approved’ by Department of Education, and we were told how to interpret them ‘correctly’. Many books were banned
And you can’t even spell “russians.” Some pride there, Ivan. Russians who leave their homeland would never, ever feel embarrassment about their heritage. Never. You’re a lying fraud-ski.
You’re a cartoon, spleef63
April 20th, 2009 at 12:33 pmElBruce,
1.Obama WILL NEVER start talking about taking total state ownership of all wealth and industries!
He is way too smart for this approach.
2.You absolutely right that Communism didn’t start with ‘creeping amounts of support for socialist policies.’
AND YES it did use ‘the strongest and starkest possible language, from the very beginning.’
You know why? Because more that 75% of the working class
(proletariat)couldn’t READ or WRITE! It was dark, angry,uneducated and dangerous NON-STOPPABLE force of ILLETARATE people that were told by their savior that the way to make it ‘fair’ is to take from a next guy.
Their Leader talked to people to resonate with their problems and on their level. Isn’t this what brilliant leaders do?….
In that crowd in 1912 there not many college educated people
who would be satisfied with ”creeping amounts of support for socialist policies’.
- An dby the way DID SAY THAT I defend the illegal actions of the Bush administration? I DO NOT TRUST ANY GOVERNMENT, including this one. Their interests rarely intersect with
regular folks.
- Frankly, I don’t give a ‘rodent’s rectum’ whetehr you agree with me or not. Your ‘right’ is not everybody’s ‘right’ THAT IS ALL THE POINT!!!
Feeling of respect is something foreign to you even toward you fellow citezens who happen to disagree.
I am not asking for respect for my ‘claimed dead homies’,
I only wish they were YOURS.
- You are nothing EMPTY SPOT as far as I am concerned and I do not need to guilt you into agreeing.
- And I maintain that you are a former KGB agent (why not?)
only they expressed so much lack of brain and anger!
BYE ANGRY CROWD !!!! GOOD LUCK !!! It was very educational
April 20th, 2009 at 12:40 pmto study so amazingly discussting creatures that think that they “THINK PROGRESS”! What an Irony!
It is excatly the distaste for this philosophy
“ot kazdogo po sposobnostyam, kazdomy po potrebnostyam”
that brought me into this converstaion to begin with, so I guess, I do reference it to illustrate my point!
Babelfish Russian-to-English tells me that none of that is Russian. Like, not one word. Ditto the Google translation tool. Nor has that phrase occurred anywhere on the Interweb before you made it up.
The word you’re looking for is, “busted.”
April 20th, 2009 at 12:42 pmI can’t believe it ElBruce!
You seemed much smarter than that !
You actually went to GOOGLE to translate russian words written in English ENGLISH letters??????
DO YOU KNOW THAT RUSSAINS HAVE DIFFERENT ALHABET????
April 20th, 2009 at 12:48 pmOY MY GOD!!!! THIS BEATS IT ALL!
hanshiro the antlion Says:
No, you sound like a middle-school production of “The Hunt For Red October.”
… the musical!
.
- An dby the way DID SAY THAT I defend the illegal actions of the Bush administration? I DO NOT TRUST ANY GOVERNMENT, including this one.
You are attacking people for criticizing Bush for torturing people. You are opposing opposition of torture. Therefore, you are definding torture.
In other news, 2 + 2 = 4.
.
travka63 Says:
- Frankly, I don’t give a ‘rodent’s rectum’ whetehr you agree with me or not. Your ‘right’ is not everybody’s ‘right’ THAT IS ALL THE POINT!!!
Nope, the entire concept of “truth” is that there’s only one. You are wrong. Incorrect. Bogus. False. Untrue. Faulty. Counterfactual. Erroneous. Unsound. Inaccurate. Wide of the mark. You don’t get to change the game into the Special Olympics version of argumentation “everyone has their own truth, maaan” just because you already got beat like a drum.
.
travka63 Says:
Feeling of respect is something foreign to you even toward you fellow citezens who happen to disagree.
I have no respect for advocates of torture and tyranny, just as they have no respect for themselves.
.
travka63 Says:
DO YOU KNOW THAT RUSSAINS HAVE DIFFERENT ALHABET????
Yeah. But if you transliterated it that way, then someone else has before. At least once. Somewhere in the bazillions of web pages out there. You know how hard it is to get zero hits on a Google search of anything?
April 20th, 2009 at 12:56 pm# 347 “Yakov Smirnoff” LOL
April 20th, 2009 at 1:06 pm“Nope, the entire concept of “truth” is that there’s only one. ”
RRRRIGHT, there is ONE, and, I guess, YOU are the one who knows the correct truth “truth” !!!
And also your fellows – ideological buddies who CAN’T really carry piecefully an argument without starting spitting, name calling, and swearing, – is this how educated, ‘cream of the crap’ ‘progress thinking’ crowd talks to stupid
rednecks?
‘You are wrong. Incorrect. Bogus. False. Untrue. Faulty. Counterfactual. Erroneous. Unsound. Inaccurate. Wide of the mark.’
You can throw your millions synonyms at me, top your feet and wave your hands – and still will not make any sense!
Even with my crooked English.
Everyone DOES have their own truth, even if you do not like, Mister! My truth is BASED on my life experience, environment, upbringing – which forms my values and believes.
Our dicsussion (so called) is an example – we have totally different paths and life experiences and different interpretation of reality, and the result is obvious!
Your ‘theory’ is a great illustration of totalitarian approach – when there is a group that claims the only “TRUTH” and whoever does not agree – doesn’t count, and should be stoned.
When someone start claiming to know one and only objective truth, Stalin repressions happen, because he believed that only his sick perverted mind know what is the best for everybody.
There is LAW, which is not what you are talking about here as I can see.
——————-
You know how hard it is to get zero hits on a Google search of anything?
————-
Unless you are as smart as this ‘professor’.
This Google translate search made it worthwily for me to
April 20th, 2009 at 2:05 pmspend so much time in the ZOO. Ok, I am off to wash off all these poop from the gutter. WOuldn’t ever believe that something like that exists!
It is also amazing how this SPECIAL club
‘REcommends’ each others PEARLS OF WISDOM.
Like a ridiculous dream….
April 20th, 2009 at 2:07 pmIs it possible for America to elect a President who doesn’t violate the law/ commit a crime while in office?
April 20th, 2009 at 2:17 pmBoo f’ckin’ hoo, Durak (?????). You’ve been threatening to leave for 5 hours! Guess that was just a Red Herring!
Conservatives are so pathetic.
April 20th, 2009 at 3:03 pmtravka63 Says:
RRRRIGHT, there is ONE, and, I guess, YOU are the one who knows the correct truth “truth” !!!
Yes: torture is wrong.
.
travka63 Says:
And also your fellows – ideological buddies who CAN’T really carry piecefully an argument without starting spitting, name calling, and swearing, – is this how educated, ‘cream of the crap’ ‘progress thinking’ crowd talks to stupid rednecks?
It’s not that we can’t, it’s just that we don’t particularly feel like it. Quit being stupid rednecks if you don’t like it.
.
travka63 Says:
Everyone DOES have their own truth, even if you do not like, Mister! My truth is BASED on my life experience, environment, upbringing – which forms my values and believes.
Your pro-torture values and beliefs.
.
travka63 Says:
When someone start claiming to know one and only objective truth, Stalin repressions happen…
Actually, Stalinist repressions happen when the government starts imprisoning, torturing and executing people with impunity and nobody does anything to stop them. That’s exactly how they happen. Duh.
You’re saying that for me to claim to know that tyrranical acts are bad, leads directly to tyranny. So I should not speak out against people who say that tyranny is justifiable, or expedient, or somehow necessary because refusing to allow my government to commit tyrannical acts would lead to tyranny.
Riiight. And I’m the one who’s making no sense here?
.
travka63 Says:
This Google translate search …
You keep complaining about my research methodology for your quote, but you have yet to tell me what the quote means. I would think you could debunk me quickly and automatically merely by providing the English translation of the Russian-sounding gobbledegook that you made up, and yet still you decline to. The only possible reason must be that no such translation exists, because those were not words. The only possible explanation for those not being words would be if you are pretending to be Russian to garner some kind of sympathy or authority on the subject.
Don’t like it? Then all you have to do is provide the translation for the phrase “ot kazdogo po sposobnostyam, kazdomy po potrebnostyam.” I’ll wait right here.
P.S: even if you were Russian, that wouldn’t make you right.
April 20th, 2009 at 3:32 pm357.ElBruce Says: Don’t like it? Then all you have to do is provide the translation for the phrase “ot kazdogo po sposobnostyam, kazdomy po potrebnostyam.” I’ll wait right here.
I think I found from where it was lifted, Bruce:
It’s here:
Apparently it’s definitions of political theories:
Cut-and-paste job…not sure of the language. One site said Serbian.
April 20th, 2009 at 4:27 pmAre you still bitting your heads about this???
WOW!
Ok, ladno.
Good job!
You picked it from a russian anecdotes site – Serbian, yah!
Don’t you guys SEE that the site http://www.anekdot.ru/
measn it is f*king RUSSIAN site?????
What you tried to translate is like a phonetics you see in the phrase books: like French Bonjour in seudo language looks like bowngzhoor.
So,
Socializm – ot kazdogo po sposobnostym, kazdomu po trudu.Kommunizm – ot kazdogo po sposobnostym, kazdomu po potrebnostym.Nase vremy – ot kazdogo po zelaniy, cinovnikam po potrebnostym,ostal’nym kak ustroytsy.
In real russian looks like this:
????????? – ?? ??????? ?? ????????????, ??????? ?? ?????.
????????? – ?? ??????? ?? ????????????, ??????? ?? ????????????.
???? ????? – ?? ??????? ?? ???????, ?????????? ?? ????????????,
????????? ??? ?????????.
NOW, you can plug it into your Google translation….
Note:
I would say that the last sentence is not translated precisely in Google (and this is supposed to be a punch line
of the anecdote)It should be more like:
“Our time – from each according to their requests, to government officials according to their needs,
and the rest the of us … who cares?”
This ‘cut and paste job’ (with the exception of the last line) was in fact our mantra, this slogan is what we lived by every day of our lives sincerely believing that
April 20th, 2009 at 6:23 pmIT IS THE SLOGAN OF THE FIRST IN THE HISTORY OF HUMAN KIND FAIR SOCIETY that we proudly build… it was our hope for the future…. that , something like , you know
“Change you Can believe in…”
russian alphabet does not show correctly here.
April 20th, 2009 at 6:26 pmHere is russian original http://www.anekdot.ru/an/an0904/j090414.html#20
So, the whole thing is:
Socialism – from each according to their abilities, to each according to work.
April 20th, 2009 at 6:30 pmCommunism – from each according to their abilities, to each according to needs.
Nowdays – from each according to their requests, to government officials according to their needs,
and the rest the of us … who cares???
So…
a) the quote specifies that the part you have a problem with is neither Socialism nor Communism, since those are listed separately, and
April 20th, 2009 at 6:47 pmb) this is what you live by?
Oh, btw spleef63, the “russian alphabet” as you call it (also something a real russian wouldn’t do) is based on and derived from Cyrillic alphabet.
A real Russian would bother to correct that little detail early on.
A real Russian would refer to his rich heritage of Russian philosophy and authors. You still do not do this at all.
Fraud. Or should I say, “ochkovtiratyelstvo”
A loser by any other language….
April 20th, 2009 at 9:22 pmNo it is not. It’s not possible in any country regardless of the political structure.
April 24th, 2009 at 1:08 pm