TAKE ACTION: Tell Congress To Hold Impeachment Hearings Against Judge Jay Bybee
TAKE ACTION: Tell Congress To Hold Impeachment Hearings Against Judge Jay Bybee
Last week, President Obama released four Bush-era legal memos authorizing torture. The earliest one, from 2002, was signed by Jay Bybee, then an Assistant Attorney General and now a federal judge on the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals. In the memo, Bybee authorized CIA interrogators to, among other techniques:
– Slam a detainee’s head against a wall: “any pain experienced is not of the intensity associated with serious physical injury.”
– Slap a detainee’s face: “The facial slap does not produce pain that is difficult to endure.”
– Place a detainee into stress positions: “They simply involve forcing the subject to remain in uncomfortable positions.”
– Waterboard a detainee: “The waterboard…inflicts no pain or actual harm whatsoever.”
These techniques are illegal by U.S. statute and international treaty to which the U.S. is a signatory. Bybee attempted to give legal cover to illegal acts, and thus broke the ethical, professional, and legal standards that should govern lawyers. For this, Judge Jay Bybee should be impeached. Congress needs to assert some accountability for these heinous acts.
ThinkProgress is sending a petition to the members of the House Judiciary Committee — where impeachment articles are drawn — imploring them to act now to remove Bybee from public office. Please join our efforts by signing onto our campaign. Here’s how it could work:
Step One: Hearings. The House Judiciary Committee holds hearings to examine charges against Bybee.
Step Two: Articles of Impeachment. The House Judiciary Committee draws up the articles of impeachment and presents them to the full House with a simple majority vote.
Step Three: Passes the House. The full House moves to impeach Bybee with a simple majority, and then passes a resolution notifying the Senate
Step Four: Moves to the Senate. The Senate passes a resolution indicating its readiness to receive the House “managers” — in effect, the prosecutors — and to hear the full articles of impeachment.
Step Five: Trial. 51 Senators must vote to continue with the impeachment trial, and 67, a full two-thirds majority, are required to convict.
An impeachment hearing would require full answers from Bybee — and would give the American people the answers they deserve. When Bush nominated Bybee in 2003, Congress had no knowledge of the full scope of Bybee’s legalese somersaults to make torture appear legal. When asked, he refused to comment, citing executive privilege. Now we know how integral Bybee was to initiating Bush’s years-long torture program.
Today, Rep. Jerry Nadler (D-NY), a senior member on the House Judiciary Committee, endorsed impeaching Bybee. “He ought to be impeached,” Nadler told the Huffington Post. “It was not an honest legal memo. It was an instruction manual on how to break the law.”
Jay Bybee has neither the legal nor the moral authority to sit in judgment of others. Please sign our petition.
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I have been all over this all day. Faxed and emailed my Senators & Rep, DOJ, the White House, McCains’ ofc, media, blogs, etc.
Here’s a little pay-it-forward graphic I did.
http://www.bgladd.com/PDF/JayBybeeWanted.jpg
April 20th, 2009 at 6:52 pmLooking forward to saying bye bye bybee
April 20th, 2009 at 6:54 pmTorture really isn’t the way to get respect and cooperation from the rest of the world. The U.S. should increase its effective and strategic foreign aid budget to improve its self image, earn back our moral leadership, and save millions of lives. The Borgen Project has good info on the estimated cost of ending global poverty:
$30 billion: Annual shortfall to end world hunger.
$550 billion: U.S. Defense budget.
April 20th, 2009 at 6:56 pmRaptureReady Says:
——————————————————————————–
No thank you, TP. It is time to move on. Act like mature individuals, and let us worry about our current economic strife and refrain from discussing issues that will divert our attention from the most important crisis.
April 20th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
Like the “mature individuals” you stupidly and blindly support that went on a 6 year fishing expedition to try and impeach a popular sitting president over a blow job , shithead ?
Piss off , you pathetic little worm………
April 20th, 2009 at 6:57 pmSorry, Daryll, it;s time for you to move on and end the worship of Bush and his fellow criminals. Bye Bye.
April 20th, 2009 at 6:58 pmThis isn’t even a question of political payback. Anyone who could sign their names to those memos isn’t qualified to hold a licence to practice law, much less sit on a Federal bench.
If nothing else, consider this – in order to cover his own ass, he’ll have to skew any relevant rulings he makes for the rest of his life in order to guarantee they remain consistent with the insane crap he spewed out at the bequest of BushCo. Imagine if a case involving torture (or for that matter any international agreement) came before his bench, even years from now. If he were to rule that torture was illegal (or that any international agreement had legal force) then he’d be setting up precedent for his own indictment.
April 20th, 2009 at 6:58 pmMore detritus from BushitCo.
April 20th, 2009 at 6:59 pmImpeaching this criminal will at least keep another Cheney lackey from damaging the nation any further.
This man is a true American. He gets it.
April 20th, 2009 at 6:59 pmRaptureReady Says:
No thank you, TP. It is time to move on. Act like mature individuals, and let us worry about our current economic strife and refrain from discussing issues that will divert our attention from the most important crisis.
What you fail to understand, my friend, is that we’ve had a president who felt that the Constitution meant nothing, and that he was free to do whatever he pleased, despite what the law and the Constitution say. He had a constitutional obligation “to take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed,” and he failed to do that.
Torture violates both US law and international law. President Bush authorized torture, and for that he needs to face his punishment.
If you cannot understand that, then you have no respect for the law, either. How do think that will sound to the voters when you run for office? And do you think we won’t let them know?
April 20th, 2009 at 6:59 pmHeh, Daryyl the parodyyls post was only up less than a minute.
April 20th, 2009 at 7:00 pmGood job TP moderators.
WoW! TP whacked Darlyy before he even had a chance to wipe up his fecal post…
April 20th, 2009 at 7:00 pmToilet water, circulating counter clockwise…
Well, even if Daryll (a/k/a RaptureReady) can’t post here, at least he can read what we say about him.
Hee-hee.
April 20th, 2009 at 7:01 pmRaptureReady Says:
It is time to move on. Act like mature individuals, and let us worry about our current economic strife and refrain from discussing issues that will divert our attention from the most important crisis.
“… so we can come back a few years later and do it all again. Or worse. Just forget about it, like you did with Watergate, like you did with Iran-Contra. We get away with murder because every time, we convince you to roll over and “move forward,” which just sets up our next regime to bring us even closer to fascism in the U.S.A. Instead, you should go pay attention to fixing the economy we demolished as a distraction…”
April 20th, 2009 at 7:02 pm@davidwaters Says:
…$550 billion: U.S. Defense budget.
___
Yeah, and moreover, the last time I checked, neither al Qaeda nor the Taliban had [1] a navy, [2] an air force [3] mechanized heavy armor units [4] heavy artillery battalions [5] spy satellites. Yet they continue to bedevil and stymie our half-trillion dollar military. All that money is doin’ someone good, but…
So, hey, let’s torture people, yeah, that’ll help.
April 20th, 2009 at 7:03 pmOkay, I’ve given this more thought. I understand why people disagree with me that he can be impeached and removed from the bench for things he did before he became a federal judge.
How about this? We impeach him for writing the memos while he was in the Executive Branch. Conviction would mean not only removal from office (an office he no longer holds), but it also means he can’t hold any office of public trust under the United States again. That would be enough to remove him from the bench. Is that better?
While we’re at it, we should also go ahead and impeach all the other lawbreakers in the Bush Administration so that, if convicted, they can’t ever hold a job in any level of government ever again. I can live with that.
We have to do something to make sure people like Bybee and Yoo never get a job in government again.
April 20th, 2009 at 7:08 pmFive comments deleted in eleven minutes! Daryll must be really pissed, praise the lord!!
April 20th, 2009 at 7:10 pmRaptureReady Says:
——————————————————————————–
“… and let us worry about our current economic strife and refrain from discussing issues that will divert our attention from the most important crisis.”
Is that government contract you have hung your entire lifestyle on getting cut from the federal budget, Rapture Boy?
April 20th, 2009 at 7:11 pmI just sent this to the publisher of the Las Vegas Sun (Bybee teaches here at UNLV Law).
___
April 20th, 2009 at 7:13 pm
noseeum, Darlyy would really be whining about getting his federal largesse cut off.
April 20th, 2009 at 7:15 pmMight have to sell his wife…
It also violates a much deeper moral law…and that makes it harder to ignore…people and nations can and do change laws that don’t suit them…
April 20th, 2009 at 7:17 pmSigning a petition? Is that like sending a stern letter?
Sorry, but as much as I’d like to munch popcorn while watching GWB swing from a tree, this is going to go nowhere. President Obama and Vice-President Emanuel [sic] have disappointed me greatly. First the pre-election FISA vote. Now saying bygones are bygones. I call BS.
April 20th, 2009 at 7:17 pmWHY IS OBAMA MAKING THE SAME ARGUMENT TO IGNORE OUR LAWS THAT BUSH AND CHENEY MADE TO VIOLATE THEM?
I am a staunch Obama supporter…….It’s not “looking to the past” to ENFORCE the LAW. Since WHEN is NOT enforcing the law an acceptable option in AMERICA? It is “ignoring the law” to choose to ALLOW LAWBREAKERS TO GO UNPROSECUTED FOR THEIR CRIMES. Since WHEN is the POLITICAL ramifications of prosecution an acceptable or relevant argument?
WHERE does President Obama draw the line when it comes to IGNORING illegal acts? Is it EVERYONE in AMERICA who broke the law during Bush’s/Cheney’s reign; or is it ONLY those who were active participants in AIDING and or ABETTING Bush and Cheney? Since WHEN is someone who aids and abets a crime not subject to CRIMINAL prosecution?
The precedents that President Obama would set in failing to hold Bush administration appointees and or employees legally accountable for their illegal actions if FAR MORE DANGEROUS TO AMERICA’S FUTURE than whatever POLITICAL COST we might pay.
How can a Constitutional Law Professor advocate IGNORING the reasons that America was founded as a NATION OF LAWS instead of a NATION OF MEN?!
President Obama is WRONG to PREVENT the prescribed enforcement of our laws. In making the argument that “we have more pressing matters to consider”, he is making the SAME ARGUMENT to IGNORE our laws that the Bush administration made to VIOLATE them. The ends DO NOT justify the means!
April 20th, 2009 at 7:17 pmI shouldn’t say harder to ignore…it should be impossible to ignore.
April 20th, 2009 at 7:18 pmWhile Bybee should be removed, why is so little being discussed about the Obama Admin. defense of John Yoo? http://www.democracynow.org/2009/3/9/headlines#19 Also the Obama DoJ is calling for more expansive protections to spy than even Bush did… http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/04/06/obama/
April 20th, 2009 at 7:18 pmElBruce says:If nothing else, consider this – in order to cover his own ass, he’ll have to skew any relevant rulings he makes for the rest of his life in order to guarantee they remain consistent with the insane crap he spewed out at the bequest of BushCo.
April 20th, 2009 at 7:19 pmYou assume that Bybee has enough brains to remain consistent. Good point though.
rr: neener neener :P
April 20th, 2009 at 7:23 pmWe have all been duped. Anthony Romero was correct about Obama, he is truly “more of the same”.
April 20th, 2009 at 7:25 pmDid the Easter Bunny come to your house this year Daryll?
April 20th, 2009 at 7:27 pmOr did some wily liberal boil him before he got there?
Me, I would have roasted him on a spit.
April 20th, 2009 at 7:27 pmBoiling makes the meat too tough.
Aren’t you about ready to become a daddy, Daryll?
April 20th, 2009 at 7:30 pmIf the baby has longish ears and twitches it’s nose a lot, I’d suggest a paternity test….
Or just call him Roger.
April 20th, 2009 at 7:31 pmTP moderators aren’t that fast, Daryl, twas GOD who zapped you!
April 20th, 2009 at 7:39 pmThe phone number of the 9th Circuit for Judicial Misconduct complaints is (415) 355-8099. Call them often.
The general number is (415) 355-8000. Call often and complain again and again.
You can write this war criminal at:
THE JAMES R. BROWNING COURTHOUSE
95 7TH STREET,
SAN FRANCISCO, CA 94103
Phone: (415) 355-8000
Hours: 8:30AM – 5:00PM
THE RICHARD H. CHAMBERS COURTHOUSE
125 SOUTH GRAND AVENUE,
PASADENA, CA 91105
Phone: (626) 229-7250
Hours: 8:30AM – 5:00PM
THE PIONEER COURTHOUSE
700 SW 6TH AVE, STE 110,
PORTLAND, OR 97204
Phone: (503) 833-5311
Hours: 8:30AM – 5:00PM
WILLIAM K. NAKAMURA COURTHOUSE
April 20th, 2009 at 7:41 pm1010 Fifth Avenue
Seattle, WA 98104
Phone: (206) 224-2200
Hours: 8:30AM – 4:30PM
Off topic:
Here’s Newt Gingrich smiling & laughing with Russia’s former Prime Minister, Viktor Chernomyrdin:
http://www.nato.int/pictures/review/9702/b3000003.jpg
April 20th, 2009 at 7:41 pmUnfreakingbelieveable. Send them all to the International Criminal Court. At least they’ll get a fair trial and piss off as many Republicans here as possible. As far as I’m concerned they are not Americans. Their citizenship should be revoked.
April 20th, 2009 at 7:41 pmNow this is where Obama stays outta of it and lets Congress debate and starts the impeachment process of Bybee.
April 20th, 2009 at 7:42 pmYou do understand that the republicans controlled the White House, the US Senate, and the US House from November 2002 to November 2006, don’t ya?
I won’t argue that Pelosi & Reid know a lot more than they’re saying, but when all of this was going down…..the republicans had a sizable control and they were the head of all the investigative committees too. Where was your outrage? We all were. Spit.
April 20th, 2009 at 7:42 pmI want someone to ask Gibbs if ALL crimes in the past are being ignored or just these specifically heinous, international, pointless and embarrassing crimes?
Ask if this means that torture is now legal in the US?
Ask if we will be apologizing to Japan and its citizens for trying and hanging their citizens for something the US now revels in and is hanging our flag proudly upon.
Ask if those previously convicted of torture will be released and pardoned?
Ask where this policy will end
Ask if this is selective or blanket
Ask how Obama would react if an international court filed charges of torture against these people we are letting go
Ask if Obama would fear he would be charged too for hididng these people and these crimes
We need specifics of how this policy is being played out.
America should be more embarrassed now by the ignoring of the crimes than we ever were by the fact that they occurred in the first place
April 20th, 2009 at 7:43 pmGeorge Bush refused to be a signatory to the International Criminal Court.
From the August 2002 Yoo/Bybee torture memo:
http://whitenoiseinsanity.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/bybeeyootorturememo.jpg
(if the print is too small to read, go to View on your toolbar and click on Zoom)
April 20th, 2009 at 7:46 pmChief Judge Dan Haywood (Spencer Tracy) delivers the verdict at the Nuremberg trial.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLFEW0Hq7-0
“Bybee attempted to give legal cover to illegal acts, and thus broke the ethical, professional, and legal standards that should govern lawyers.”
This judgement rings very true when it comes to the Bush administrations use of torture.
April 20th, 2009 at 7:49 pmProud Says:
Reality check…
I love your predictions of the future. Like how Obama would never win. They’re annoying at first, but later on they’re sooo satisfying to revisit. I’ll be looking forward to basking in your wrongness on this one too. By the way, you wouldn’t happen to be Bill Kristol, would you?
April 20th, 2009 at 7:50 pmThanks for that.
We either prosecute or participate.
April 20th, 2009 at 7:51 pmCan’t he just be disbarred? Don’t you have to have a law license to be a judge?
April 20th, 2009 at 7:55 pmI’m looking forward to the congress setting the example for the other guy looking forward.
Petition signed.
April 20th, 2009 at 7:55 pmVikki in Oregon Says:
Can’t he just be disbarred?
I think judges have to be disrobed.
April 20th, 2009 at 7:58 pmNow it’s time to cheat, lie and steal in every way possible without getting caught.
April 20th, 2009 at 8:12 pmThat is what this administration has taught me and I plan to make use of my education whenever possible, for as long as possible.
As long as I continue to ‘look forward’ I should have nooo problem.
The question of whether the U.S. government, filled with politicians, will move to uphold the rule of law is THE central issue of the day.
We’ve all had the opportunity to see what effect the republican/so-called “conservative” policies have. It empowers the wealthy and well-connected to rape the treasury, destroy our economy, and overturn our culture that used to be based upon common courtesy and common sense. All in the name of “morality” “decency” and “lower taxes.”
Our industrial base and core infrastructure have been gutted like a fish for the last 30 or so years since the Regan revolution began. What’s left of the corpse will either rise or decay into putrid compost based on how President Obama responds to the challenge posed by the criminal activities of the previous renegade administration. He’s trying to duck the issue by saying it’s important to “move on.”
Well, someone ought to tell him the news. For 2 years Nancy Pelosi sat on the Congress and rebuked everyone who attempted to hold bush and his cronies accountable following the 2006 elections. What we got was a 2 year period where the Wall Street derivative crooks continued to bilk their customers, their firms, and eventually the American Taxpayer of hundreds of additional billions of dollars.
The impact unregulated capitalism has made on our economy could have mitigated to a substantional degree if Congress had simply done its job instead of looking for a simple way around the problem. (More realistically, the Democrats don’t want the spotlight of public scrutiny flooding over how corrupt Congress has become.)
So don’t look toward Congress with expectations that they will do what’s right and needful, America. Go after the head honcho, and DEMAND that HE do HIS JOB: “PROTECT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION” and see to it that the laws are faithfully executed. What that means is, when persons have violated the law, particularly when government officials violate the law, they are brought before the bar of justice and required to account for their actions and to PAY THE PENALTY prescribed by LAW.
Obama’s not going to do this unless We, the People, force him to.
And yes, Spencer Tracy explained it well, when he recounted the decision made at Nuermburg, it is the responsibility of the legal community to enforce the law upon itself, else it lays itself bare to the judgment of humanity for the CRIMES OF OMISSION it committed.
April 20th, 2009 at 8:13 pmWe can not allow these thugs to walk with impunity. The,”Look forward not behind,” nonsense was in fact a campaign talking point in Sarah Palin’s debate with Joe Biden! Barrack continues to disappoint me with his disregard of these crimes. They were not just bad policy, they were felonies. By any objective standard. Repugnicans are all law-and-order until it is one of their own being prosecuted! They really don’t have any principles other than deregulation and tax cuts. The rest of their stuff is BS. Plain and simple!
April 20th, 2009 at 8:23 pmWhat the hell happened to RealityCheck?
April 20th, 2009 at 8:23 pmThat lameass and I have business…
back again… glutton for punishment, that i am…
what’s this i heard about diane fienstein and a letter to the president?
maybe she’s not ready to let the torture slide?
April 20th, 2009 at 8:29 pmIt’s only appropriate and fitting when Bybee gets “slammed” against the wall, slapped on the face, then waterboarded. While we’re at it, we should subject Bush and Cheney to the same treatments.
April 20th, 2009 at 8:31 pmProud Says:
——————————————————————————–
Reality check, Bybee may be impeached. No big deal he is on the 9th circus which has been a joke for years. The Dems will hope this may satisfy the left. Nothing else will happen on the torture issue. The Dem leadership is just as complicit as the Republicans in all of these issues. If anything was going to happen it would have happened already, Reid and Pelosi knew everything that was happening. That is why they never tried to impeach Pres Bush. Obama will try to find a couple of sacrificial lambs , but that will be as far as it goes.
–
————————————————————
Proud,
I couldn’t agree with you more. I will differ with you on one point. The big difference in my mind is the f#$king mess the Obama administration has to clean up. Bush was extended the “benefit of the doubt” because he was the president.
Obama is faced with hard choices, and many won’t please me, but I am ready to extend the” benefit of the doubt”.
The verdict is in on Bush and the Republicans; they did not deserve the ‘benefit of the doubt”. They abused the confidence extended to them. It is obvious to me that the Bush Administration was unfit to government; look at the results.
The Obama administration is trying to piece together a neglected government. He inherited a list of Bushes’ bad choices and decisions. I am willing to give him and the Democratics some latitude. The f$%king Republicans proved beyond any doubt that they should not govern; they are not capable of it.
Humbly flight
April 20th, 2009 at 8:33 pmMust be a federalist…
April 20th, 2009 at 8:43 pmThese laws were being interpreted by advisors, federalist activists, they were not judges.
April 20th, 2009 at 8:51 pmThere isn’t 67 votes in the Senate to convict. The regressives will march in lock-step to block .
April 20th, 2009 at 8:55 pmUnfortunately, I don’t think step 5 will be realized with 67 votes needed. The dems only have 58. 9 republicant won’t step over with thier party of “NO” crap:
Step Five: Trial. 51 Senators must vote to continue with the impeachment trial, and 67, a full two-thirds majority, are required to convict.
For that reason, step one might not happen either.
April 20th, 2009 at 9:01 pmSteppenwoof Says:
There isn’t 67 votes in the Senate to convict. The regressives will march in lock-step to block . I think if enough people actively campaign for justice some of the lock-steppers will stumble. At least I would hope so.
April 20th, 2009 at 9:01 pmSteppenwoof Says:
There isn’t 67 votes in the Senate to convict. The regressives will march in lock-step to block .
Then we give them something to block. Keep them on record, day after day, of being the pro-torture party.
April 20th, 2009 at 9:03 pmyes.
April 20th, 2009 at 9:26 pmToo Little for Langley?
Newsweek – ?55 minutes ago?
As if to validate some of these concerns, Sen Dianne Feinstein, the Democrat who chairs the Senate Intelligence Committee, wrote a letter to Obama today …
Feinstein Asks Obama to Reserve Judgment on Torture Prosecutions
The Public Record – ?2 hours ago?
By Jason Leopold Senate Intelligence Committee Chairwoman Dianne Feinstein urged President Barack Obama Monday to hold off on making comments about “holding …
…
Senate’s CIA Probe Already Finished Looking at Two Detainees The Washington Independent
http://news.google.com/news?pz=1&ned=us&hl=en&q=diane+feinstein%2C+letter+to+obama
The GOP for 2010/12. Some hot new and old ideas to embrace!
wiretapping
pre-emptive war
pro-torture (New!)
tax cuts for the rich, big oil and big corporation
farting cows and dinosaurs (New!)
One world currency complements of Michele Bachmann
Book burnings and
Retraining camps for your kids
And many more …….
I think the “followers” of the GOP have Stockholm syndrome if they vote red in 2010/12.
April 20th, 2009 at 9:27 pmThe old razzle dazzle. Say isn’t Obama continuing the Bush war footing and rendition policies? Why, yes he is!
April 20th, 2009 at 9:28 pmThis Judge needs to be arrested and tried.
April 20th, 2009 at 9:29 pmrightwing-leftwing Says:
I think the “followers” of the GOP have Stockholm syndrome if they vote red in 2010/12.
Stockholm or Down. One of those.
April 20th, 2009 at 9:31 pmA war criminal shouldn’t be a judge. It’s that simple.
http://www.pufferfishblog.com/
April 20th, 2009 at 9:35 pmHere is something I just found…
10 ‘torture’ techniques blessed by Bush Administration
— “The United States is committed to the worldwide elimination of torture and we are leading this fight by example.” President Bush on UN Torture Victims Recognition Day 26 June 2003
— “Freedom from torture is an inalienable human right and we are committed to building a world where human rights are respected and protected by the rule of law … Many have been detained, arrested, thrown in prison and subjected to torture by regimes that fail to understand that their habits of control will not serve them well in the long term.” Statement by President Bush released by the White House on June 26, 2005
— “We do not torture.” President Bush to reporters during a visit to Panama in November 2005
Related Links
TEXT: 10 ‘torture’ techniques blessed by Bush
Key players in ‘torture’ memos
Thousands protect Obama in Trinidad
Multimedia
IN FULL: the torture memo
CIA and Obama statements
Comment Central: torture blog round-up
— “The bill Congress sent me would take away one of the most valuable tools in the war on terror — the CIA program to detain and question key terrorist leaders and operatives.” President Bush on his veto of a bill that would have outlawed waterboarding in March 2008
— “I’m aware our national security team met on this issue. And I approved … I told the country we did that. And I also told them it was legal. We had legal opinions that enabled us to do it.” President Bush in an interview with ABC about interrogation tactics used on detainees in April 2008
April 20th, 2009 at 9:40 pmI tawt I saw a federalist..I deed I deed!
April 20th, 2009 at 9:41 pmDanny Noonan Says:
——————————————————————————–
A war criminal shouldn’t be a judge. It’s that simple.
I couldn’t agree more Danny!
Flight
April 20th, 2009 at 9:41 pmdrew3rd Says:
The old razzle dazzle. Say isn’t Obama continuing the Bush war footing and rendition policies? Why, yes he is!
I’m glad you admit that Bush’s policies are worth ending and that it’s not a good idea to usher back in the problem of the last eight years in its full form.
April 20th, 2009 at 9:44 pmList them. Link to those “stories” oh honest, sincere one.
April 20th, 2009 at 9:55 pmWow, thanks for the link katy. I never thought that President Obama’s decision making against the progressive community would incur anything less than Dianne Feinstein’s seal of approval. Her image is partially resuscitated by telling him to step back.
No investigations to weight even the slightest probable cause and already a president declares a load of potential cases unfit for prosecution.
Not a good day.
April 20th, 2009 at 9:57 pmConservativeforprogress — just what progress have you made over last eight years?
I’m sure the story you pulled out of your ass is accompanied by a fecal-covered link.
April 20th, 2009 at 10:01 pmConservativeForProgress Says:
Several foreign press stories indicate that treatment of prisoners at Gitmo has gotten worse since Obama took office.
__________
A closer examination shows that almost all the “foreign press stories” are repeats of just TWO:
1. An article based on claims by “Ahmed Ghappour, who represents some of the detainees, believes prison guards are ‘getting their kicks in’ before the camp is closed.” and…
2. A detainee at the US prison at Guantanamo Bay said he was beaten almost daily and that nothing has changed since Barack Obama took over as US president, Al-Jazeera reported on Wednesday.
I could find no other credible articles that weren’t based on these two.
Hard to say what’s really going on there, but this doesn’t seem enough info one way or another to come to a definitive stance. But i somehow doubt you’re interested the the truth anyways.
April 20th, 2009 at 10:06 pmOMG! What are we doing in this country? Don’t we have a line in our federal budget to get these prisoners cuddly blankies and ice cream? Those guards should be buddying up to them and giving them smokes from their own pockets, and they should not be carrying guns at all! These are just WAR criminals and TERRORISTS against our very own people and other innocent civilians, we should be hugging them and letting them know how much we care instead of torturing them to extract information, isn’t that the way they do our soldiers when they capture them? Or do they behead them . . . I can’t remember? Oh well it doesn’t matter we should be better than they are and love and nurture them, they are only terrorists because their mothers didn’t when they were young. They are just misunderstood COLD BLOODED MURDERS!
I’ll bet most of you would think differently if just one time putting one of these deadbeats in a box with some bugs got them to give up information that saved your family from being killed with one of their loving care packages full of explosives wouldn’t you? Or are you really all that wishy washy?
Frankly I don’t care if they are beat to within an inch of their life if one time in a thousand it stops another 911 incident or one car bombing or IED that harms a hair on an innocent civilian or one of our soldiers head. They put themselves there let them live with it.
If you all are so set against a TERRORIST receiving a bug bite maybe you would volunteer your spare bedroom to house one of these guys here in the US, give them the love and understanding they need, feed them, clothe them, care for them . . . while they plan the murder of your daughter, son, husband, wife, parents and neighbors. Let’s see how you really feel, belly up and speak out bring them into your home and show them how we live and behave here in the US . . . I double dog dare you!
Let’s just see how soft you are when the life of one of your loved ones is in the hands of their buddies, bet you won’t think beating the crap out of them then is such a bad idea.
WOW folks, think please?
April 20th, 2009 at 10:33 pmWOW LtE. You first.
Pathetic Idiot
April 20th, 2009 at 10:52 pmWant a post chock full of “24″ myths that appeals to the stupid using emotional overtones?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Look above.
April 20th, 2009 at 10:53 pmInteresting, now that there’s a Dem in office, the wingnuts are hanging on to Al-Jazeera’s every word. Remember what they thought of them, oh, two months ago?
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candide Says:
Does that tell you anything about how Americans should view Chavez and his government?
Tells me something about how each side feels about democracy…
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LtEagle22 Says:
OMG! What are we doing in this country? Don’t we have a line in our federal budget to get these prisoners cuddly blankies and ice cream?
(blah blah terrorists are evil therefore we get to be evil, blah blah)
WOW folks, think please?
Speaking of thinking, are you really suggesting that those are the only two options that a stable nation based on the rule of law has? Torture or ice cream? What do you mean when you utter the bleat “think?” Because I don’t think you mean the same thing I mean.
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LtEagle22 Says:
Let’s just see how soft you are when the life of one of your loved ones is in the hands of their buddies…
By the same argument, I should consider my reaction were the life of one of my loved ones in the hands of a wingnut. You people are vicious and have no moral standards whatsoever. By your argument, we should pre-emptively detain and torture you – oh wait, I forgot, you cry like a little b!tch if someone so much as writes a memo about you.
Oh yeah, torture is also evil. And illegal.
April 20th, 2009 at 10:58 pmThen shouldn’t Ms. England be allowed to appeal her sentence since she was following orders and not appearing to cause pain and suffering, at least according to Justice Bybee’s definition?
April 20th, 2009 at 11:02 pmOk, you call me what you want, I refuse to make this personal. This is a serious issue and it requires serious discussion.
April 20th, 2009 at 11:39 pmNo I don’t believe just because they are evil we get to be too. However I also far from believe we can just completely eliminate any and all need for torture. There are going to be times and people where something as “evil” as putting someone in a box full of bugs or even water boarding is required, are you seriously against that if it means saving a life? Of course we can debate this to the ends of the earth and never come up with a set of rules that will be effective in every situation. We can authorize torture tactics a thousand times and get nothing, unfortunately there will be one time that we can get something and don’t because we refuse to use torture. I just don’t believe we can build that many rules into the game of war we have to have some faith in those on the ground at the very moment this is going on to make an honest judgment as to what tactics to take. It is easy for every one of us to sit here in the safety of our own homes and offices and pass judgment on those whose lives we have put on the line over there AFTER THE FACT. But honestly the fact is that this is the only thing some people understand.
And quite honestly I believe in our forces over there, soldiers, CIA, FBI we have to give them ground rules and then let them do their jobs and trust that they have the wherewithal to do what is right and necessary based on the information they have at the time. If we put such restraints on them that they can’t lift a finger in the direction of necessity at the moment then there is no sense in them being there. Of course that is a whole different argument that you may find we think more alike on but let’s save that for another time.
We just can’t put our people in the position they are in without the tools to do the job. Let’s ponder this. If we remove all ability for them to conduct any type of “torture” during interrogation and that guy has information about the next 911 and it happens. Will there not then be those of us here willing to impeach that person for not allowing the bad guy to have been slapped in the face when we decide that would have made him talk?
I believe if the intent of the authorizations are fairly evaluated we will realize that they were intended as a set of ground rules and the rest is up to our people on the ground to determine. All I hear is how bad this is but if not these, what tactics do we authorize? Doing nothing but locking these people in prison is not going to get them to telling all their secrets. That would be no better than sending our troops in to fight with paint ball guns.
If you haven’t guessed it I am what you probably consider, what did you call me? A wing nut? Ok, but want to know why I am here when there are more than enough rightwing sites for me to hang out in with people who think more like I do. Because nothing gets done in a room full of people who think exactly the same, other than name calling and everyone getting everyone else stirred up. So then what? When do we all try to interact and have a serious discussion about the real issues? We are all after the same things here and not one of us is right. But not one of us is wrong either. So here I am in the heart of what some would call enemy territory, but maybe we can have some serious discussion and actually come to some consensus about how to deal with things. Otherwise we have two teams on the same team tearing each other down while the real enemies surround us.
So, what say you? Want to really talk or should we just call each other names and get pissed off so we can go to our friends and tell them how truly stupid people are on the other side of the fence?
“and 67, a full two-thirds majority, are required to convict.”
The man will probably be impeached, but given that the party of NO controls more than 1/3 of the senate, it is highly doubtful that he will be convicted. Remember that these boys take their marching orders from Limbaugh and are some of the most vile organisms that creep. They see no problems with these memos and think that laws in general and international law in particular are there for the breaking. I seriously doubt that they will cross and vote against their own leadership.
I haven’t seen anyone suggesting that he could be disbarred for this behavior. Would that preclude him serving as a federal judge?
Having said that, it is still worthwhile bringing charges against the creep if for no other reason than it would force him to recuse himself if there were ever a case that was at all connected with international law, torture, Islam, or anything else like that.
April 20th, 2009 at 11:52 pm.
But, but, but…
… I thought the House Madame took accountability “OFF THE TABLE”.
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April 21st, 2009 at 12:29 amLtEagle22 Says:
However I also far from believe we can just completely eliminate any and all need for torture.
Before Bush showed up, WE ALREADY HAD. If I got into a time machine, went back to the year 2000 and started saying to you what you’re saying to me right now, you’d call me an unamerican dictatorial monster. Mabye worse. What’s right and wrong hasn’t changed since then.
Y’all are fond of saying “9/11 changed everything.” Everything? Including what we stand for? I’m not willing to go that far. You are. Therefore, you are a bad person, and no American.
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LtEagle22 Says:
There are going to be times and people where something as “evil” as putting someone in a box full of bugs or even water boarding is required, are you seriously against that if it means saving a life?
a) Yes.
b) No lives were saved.
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LtEagle22 Says:
Of course we can debate this to the ends of the earth and never come up with a set of rules that will be effective in every situation.
Rule 1: Don’t torture people.
Rule 2: See rule 1.
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LtEagle22 Says:
unfortunately there will be one time that we can get something and don’t because we refuse to use torture.
Not proven. That only happens in your testosterone fantasies, a la 24.
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LtEagle22 Says:
I just don’t believe we can build that many rules into the game of war we have to have some faith in those on the ground…
So you’re against all treaties governing international law and behavior? You don’t believe there is a such thing as a “war crime?” You would overturn Nuremburg?
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LtEagle22 Says:
But honestly the fact is that this is the only thing some people understand.
“Some people” apparently being “Republicans.”
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LtEagle22 Says:
And quite honestly I believe in our forces over there, soldiers, CIA, FBI we have to give them ground rules…”
… like, “don’t torture people.”
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LtEagle22 Says:
Let’s ponder this. If we remove all ability for them to conduct any type of “torture” during interrogation and that guy has information about the next 911 and it happens.
Let’s ponder this: we think he does, torture him to near-death repeatedly for months, and it turns out he was completely innocent. Now ask yourself this question: which scenario is more likely, mine or yours? Or, put it this way: out of the God-knows-how-many people who were tortured, how many times did my scenario happen, and how many times did yours happen? Let me give you a hint: your scenario happened zero times; mine every time. That should tell you something.
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We’ve gone over a lot of this before, which is why a lot of TP people have little patience for your line of argument. But since you honestly seem to have missed it all, I’ll give you a quick recap.
Torturing people is a really great way to get them to do what you want them to do. It’s a great way to get people to tell you what you want them to tell you (verbatim). But it’s not effective at all at getting information that you don’t already have.
For example, if I’m torturing you effectively, and you know that the truth isn’t very plausible, your incentive will be to tell me something that I’m more willing to believe, because your only concern at the moment is getting me to stop. If you tell me the truth (that you’re innocent, for example) then I probably won’t stop. If you make up something juicy, then I probably will. There’s no incentive for a tortured person to tell his captor the truth.
Even if there was, somebody willing to torture you can’t be trusted not to violate every standard of human decency. Promise me to the moon that you’ll stop hurting me if I give you the truth, and I have no reason to believe you. If you’re capable of torture, then you’re capable of anything, certainly lying about whether you’re going to torture me in the future.
Furthermore, the slipshod haphazard way in which these detainees were gathered is another issue here. It turns out we pretty much put a bounty on anybody who could be kidnapped and delivered to us in the greater Afghanistan/Pakistan area who didn’t have any close family nearby to come looking for them. Then we assumed they were all terrorists and tortured them. So all of your assumptions fail to begin with. Apply your imaginative fantasy to a camp of 100 people who are really innocent, and then see how it works out: pretty much how it did.
Look, we came up with all these rights and due process and stuff that we give ourselves for a good, logical reason; not just because we think we’re awesome and want to make our lives easy, but rather because violating human rights and due process fails. It just doesn’t work. It’s ineffective. You end up doing horrific things to great numbers of innocent people for no gain whatsoever.
Even if you did had something to gain by it, even if one out of one hundred people you torture had information that saved lives, it still wouldn’t be something that I’m going to allow you to get away with in my country. America is based on principles. Being a patriot means being willing to suffer personal risk for those principles. If not torturing people increases my chance of getting car-bombed by 0.01% over the next year, then I’m willing to assume that increase in risk, because I am not a coward who will sell out everything my country is based on just so that I won’t have to wet the bed at night.
If you want to live in a country where they’re willing to do whatever it takes to protect you from terrorists, may I recommend North Korea?
April 21st, 2009 at 12:43 am.
Judiciary Committee Chairman John Conyers (D-MI) renewed his call for full investigations into Bush’s torture policies today: “It is simply obvious that, if there is no accountability when wrongdoing is exposed, future violations will not be deterred.”
I think what was meant is that John Conyers renewed his inaction to hold people accountable for the crimes they commit while he’s in charge of the House Judiciary.
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April 21st, 2009 at 12:51 amElBruce,
I think you spent far too much time on LtEagle22…
… He adores torture and thinks the USA owes Germany, Japan, Pol Pot and his Khmer Rouge, and other authoritarian governments a big fat apology for our stance on human rights abuses and the use of torture.
Oh, and LtEagle22,
Free Lynndie and Charles!!!
… YES?
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April 21st, 2009 at 1:03 amLtEagle22, I don’t know if you ever had the privilege of living under the UCMJ, or not — but I have.
While I served in the military, I knew and understood that if I were given custody of an unarmed prisoner, it was my ass if I allowed anyone to do anything to that person that placed his health and wellbeing at risk.
You might not like that, but as far as the United States military is concerned, subjecting prisoners to cruel and inhumane treatment is a crime that will land a soldier in Levenworth Federal Prison for 20 years.
So I guess you’re all for placing our soldiers in harm’s way for the sake of the sado-masochists who got off on the idea of torturing people BECAUSE THEY COULD, CALLING IT A ROSE BY ANOTHER NAME UNDER THE HEADING OF A WAR ON TERROR.
Remember the privates from Abu Gherib who were sent to prison because they followed orders? They were scapegoats.
The junk you included in your posts show you have no understanding of:
– how most of these detainees came to be prisoners;
– the ineffectiveness of torture as a legitimate interrogation technique;
– the Iraqi children who were raped in front of their fathers as a justified “enhanced interrogation technique.”
Go do your homework if you have any desire to discuss this matter in an intelligent manner.
April 21st, 2009 at 1:22 amIf torture works so well, how come Mohammed al-Qahtani, ‘reputedly one of the most dangerous prisoners held at Guantanamo and one of six to who might have faced the death penalty for alleged participation in the 9/11 plot’,
had charges against him dismissed without formal explanation? Isn’t the whole point of torture to enact justice? Or is there another reason?
(http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1779611,00.html?iid=sphere-inline-bottom)
April 21st, 2009 at 1:48 amProud Says:
My God you are such an ignorant piece of garbage it makes me sick to think you are even the same species as I am. Whatever Pelosi KNEW was classified. She could NOT disclose classified material just because she disagreed you worthless moron. It is a CRIME to do so. Why dont you just STFU and stop embarassing yourself. We already heard this Rush talking point and we already KNEW that Rush does ALL your thinking for you. What a pathetic loaf you are.
April 21st, 2009 at 2:32 amdrew3rd Says:
The old razzle dazzle. Say isn’t Obama continuing the Bush war footing and rendition policies? Why, yes he is!
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No he isnt. For istance while we may still rendition people we WONT be renditioning them to places where they will be tortured which was the BUSH policy. As for the war I dont think anyone really thought we would be out of Iraq in four months. However combat missions will end much sooner than Bush would have ended them. Obama is losing my support on many fronts but not on those two.
April 21st, 2009 at 2:46 amConservativeForProgress Says:
Cough those sources up. I dont believe you. I think you are a liar and I KNOW you are a fool.
April 21st, 2009 at 2:47 amLtEagle22 Says:
My GOD you are incredibly stupid. What are cowardly PUNKS like YOU doing to our country? Dont we have values? Do you have evidence that all those at Gitmo were terrorists? Since even the PENTAGON didnt claim that you are a liar and a fool. We KNOW that Maher Arar wasnt a terrorist. We never even CLAIMED he was a terrorist and he was tortured for ten months. GO crawl back under your mommys bed and whine to her while decent Americans clean up the mess cowardly morons like you left this country in.
April 21st, 2009 at 2:50 amDon’t go making excuses for Pelosi. All this hype about stuff being classified for “national security” doesn’t protect her for her part in allowing ongoing illegal acts to continue. It is a federal crime for a federal employee who learns of a crime that has been committed to fail to report that crime, and the phrase federal employee most certainly does encompass the members of Congress.
As a member of the ruling government, her failure to move to put a stop to the criminality of bush&co. makes her complicit in the ongoing torture. In other words, Nancy Pelosi is just as deserving to be brought before the court in the Hague as rumsfeld and cheney. There’s no getting around this fact.
April 21st, 2009 at 7:37 amRe 94 – Got proof?
April 21st, 2009 at 8:19 amTalking out your ass?
What I write will be distressing to most of you, because this is an emotional topic. But because the law is not interpreted emotionally but rationally,I expect to get irrational comments.
April 21st, 2009 at 8:48 amBybee’s memo is correct, although you may not like it. There is no legal grounds to impeach him. Asking for his impeachment makes you look irrational.He will not be prosecuted because he broke no law. Obama and his administration knows this. The ranking Democrats in Congress on the committees knew about the CIA activities at the time and blessed them, because, they were legal. Obama’s statements on “torture” made here and abroad were made to appease the extreme portion of his base (I know, that is most of you–so please be appeased for his sake ok?). If you could impeach Bybee, you would also have to impeach Diane Feinstein, Hillay Clinton, etc.
Torture is defined in the statues as the infliction of “severe” pain, in the USA or to a US resident.Yes its a judgment call as to what is severe, but when you consider the whole range of pain, Bybee’s judgment is not manifestly incorrect. Further, because the actions took place outside the USA to non US residents, the statute does not apply. The treaty also refers to severe pain.Now and at the time Bybee’s memo was written, that is the state of the law.
We have a system of laws in the USA and if you do not like the laws then there is a legislative process. You cannot impeach or prosecute someone unless they broke the law. You cannot change the law and have it applied retroactively. Otherwise you have just mob rule.
One little flaw in the torture supporters theories. In their eyes it’s ok to torture every detainee as long as we gleen at least one shread of evidence that may save an American’s life. The problem is that we could have gained that very same piece of intel, much more even, through normal interrogation methods. Several former CIA agents have come forward to state that detainees responded quite well to non-agressive methods of interrogation and that the tap ran dry once the tortures began. After that what was gained from detainees was very unreliable, almost never panned out and was, along with the illegality of it all, a big waste of time and energy. If these detainees had any actionable intel we waisted our opportunity by focusing on vengeful torture tactics to satisfy a sadistic Vice President and his delusionary world view.
April 21st, 2009 at 9:20 amRobert M. Says:
Sure she could have reported it to the BUSH JUSTICE DEPT she would have had to go high enough to find someone with the clearance to hear it. Whatever good THAT would have done and she should have. However making it PUBLIC would have been illegal. If she offered ANY support then let her be prosecuted. This rightwing meme that she is just as responsible because she KNEW when she couldnt make it public makes no sense. Hey I am as mad at Nancy as any liberal here but THIS is a loser argument that is being used by the right to make it seem like the Dems were just as involved in torture as the Bush adminstration
April 21st, 2009 at 10:57 amConservativeForProgress Says:
Are you an infant? Obama should be impeached because an article says that prison guards a Guantanamo ON THEIR OWN are abusing prisoners? Do us a favor and STFU until you learn to think for yourself. The brainwashing you have been recieving kills braincells and TRUST ME you have none to spare.
April 21st, 2009 at 11:00 amjaychik Says:
You are wrong. You SAYING things that you have been TOLD to think by the hivemind wont make them true. You are way late with these talking points and we have already destroyed them days ago. You are just flat out WRONG they are NOT legal that is NOT the only thing that constitutes torture according to the statute. We took the last guy that tried this weak talking point apart. I am sure Rush TOLD you to regurgitate this but its wrong. One of these days you might TRY thinking for yourself. Brainwashed and foolish is no way for you to go through life. No extra points for adding the OLD CLICHED liberals are all emotional and not rational talking point that Rush brainwashed you with long ago
April 21st, 2009 at 11:04 amAre you STILL pimping this stupidity? By all means prosecute the guards. The ones the VERY ARTICLE YOU CITE blames for the mistreatment. Nothing to do with Obama. He is not able to personally keep an eye on the guards at Guantanamo
April 21st, 2009 at 11:06 amConservativeForProgress Says:
LONDON (Reuters) – “Abuse of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay has worsened sharply since President Barack Obama took office.”
“…as prison guards ‘get their kicks in’ before the camp is closed, according to a lawyer who represents detainees.”
You were just hoping nobody would actually click into the link you provided, huh?
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jaychik Says:
Bybee’s memo is correct, although you may not like it. There is no legal grounds to impeach him.
Legally, you can impeach someone for any or no reason. You can impeach someone because Congress doesn’t like their face. You can certainly impeach someone because Congress realizes they should never have confirmed him in the first place, due to information which came out afterwards.
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jaychik Says:
He will not be prosecuted because he broke no law.
That remains to be seen. A lot of the people who were convicted in Nuremburg could say the same.
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jaychik Says:
The ranking Democrats in Congress on the committees knew about the CIA activities at the time and blessed them…
What do you mean “and blessed them?” Declined to get themselves thrown in jail by publicly leaking the information? Is that what you call a “blessing?”
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jaychik Says:
Obama’s statements on “torture” made here and abroad were made to appease the extreme portion of his base (I know, that is most of you–so please be appeased for his sake ok?). If you could impeach Bybee, you would also have to impeach Diane Feinstein, Hillay Clinton, etc.
If you believe that only the “extreme portion of his base” believes that the U.S.A. should not torture people, then you are a crazy person. The belief that the U.S.A. should not torture people is commonly held by most sane and decent people.
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jaychik Says:
Torture is defined in the statues as the infliction of “severe” pain, in the USA or to a US resident.
Out of who’s ass did you pull this “definition?” It seems y’all have a new one every week.
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jaychik Says:
Further, because the actions took place outside the USA to non US residents, the statute does not apply.
Flat-out lie. First of all, not torturing people isn’t just a “statute.” Second of all, the governing law was designed to apply to international situations.
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jaychik Says:
We have a system of laws in the USA and if you do not like the laws then there is a legislative process.
Exactly. Torturing people is illegal, and it always has been in the U.S.A. or by the U.S. government anywhere. None of this was ever in question until your people started breaking those laws. Oh, but then you learned to tap dance real quick, didn’t you?
April 21st, 2009 at 11:37 amI agree that Bybee should be impeached. But there is no way he will be convicted. As with the budget, the Republicans will vote as a bloc not to convict.
In the long run, this may not be a bad thing. The truth about the torture memos will finally come out. And maybe we’ll get a few more Republicans out of the Senate at the next election.
April 21st, 2009 at 5:34 pm“Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it.”
Of course, that’s the point. Ignore the past, forget the atrocities they committed. Keeping the people ignorant of their crimes is imperative if they are ever to regain power.
April 21st, 2009 at 6:27 pm