After Calling Waterboarding Torture In December, David Rivkin Pens Op-Ed Defending Its Use
After Calling Waterboarding Torture In December, David Rivkin Pens Op-Ed Defending Its Use
In today’s Wall Street Journal David Rivkin and Lee Casey — who have made something of a cottage industry out of defending the worst actions of the Bush administration — argue that the OLC torture memos released last week by the Obama administration “prove” that the Bush administration did not torture detainees. “Far from ‘green lighting’ torture…the memos detail the actual techniques used and the many measures taken to ensure that interrogations did not cause severe pain or degradation,” they write.
To support their argument, Rivkin and Casey claim that the memos show that the Bush administration made use of waterboarding only on a very limited and controlled basis. The tactics were “harsh,” they acknowledge, but “fall well short of torture.” Anyone claiming otherwise is exaggerating as a result of what they call “speculative rage”:
The memos are also revealing about the practice of “waterboarding,” about which there has been so much speculative rage from the program’s opponents. The practice, used on only three individuals, involved covering the nose and mouth with a cloth and pouring water over the cloth to create a drowning sensation.
This technique could be used for up to 40 seconds — although the CIA orally informed Justice Department lawyers that it would likely not be used for more than 20 seconds at a time. Unlike the exaggerated claims of so many Bush critics, the memos make clear that water was not actually expected to enter the detainee’s lungs, and that measures were put in place to prevent complications if this did happen and to ensure that the individual did not develop respiratory distress.
But as Marcy Wheeler first noted and the New York Times reports today, the OLC memos actually “prove” that waterboarding was used far more often than Rivkin and Casey acknowledge and far more often than the Bush administration previously admitted. Indeed, waterboarding was used “at least 83 times in August 2002 against Abu Zubaydah” and “183 times in March 2003 against Khalid Shaikh Mohammed.”
Rivkin and Casey’s defense of waterboarding is puzzling given Rivkin’s recent remarks about the torture technique. In a December 2008 appearance on Al Jazeera English, Rivkin stated emphatically that torture is “always unacceptable” and that in his view “waterboarding is torture“:
RIVKIN: Let me clarify, torture in my view is always unacceptable, and in fact I frankly think characterizing American interrogation policy, or debates about interrogation policy, as torture is misleading. … Torture is defined somewhat imprecisely in international law, but basically, in my view, waterboarding is torture.
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Right Wing Translated into English:
April 20th, 2009 at 2:13 pm“I’m such a coward that I don’t care who gets tortured, just protect my quivering little pansy a$$!!!!”
In right-wing ethics, it all depends on who’s doing the waterboarding.
April 20th, 2009 at 2:16 pmBefore this cretinous Bush apologist defends waterboarding as not being torture, he needs to do several things:
April 20th, 2009 at 2:20 pm1. Check with experienced military judge advocates and intelligence officers like me. We are not only familiar with the Geneva Convention but also know torture when we see it. That is why we opposed the torture memos from the beginning.
2. Undergo waterboarding, say 183 times in the period of a month or two.
Once again I`m confused, is he for torture or against it before he was for it?Or is it just re-puke for riding the fence because if he is for torture he is not a real American or if he is against it he is not a real republiscum party member.
April 20th, 2009 at 2:20 pm.
EXCEPTIONALISM defined:
… It’s not TORTURE when America does it.
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April 20th, 2009 at 2:23 pmThis is the typical moral relativity of the Right.
April 20th, 2009 at 2:24 pmI’ve started to believe that when people like this were born, the baby was thrown out. How else can this sort of garbage be explained?
April 20th, 2009 at 2:30 pmMr. Rivkin,
You told Al Jazeera that waterboarding is torture, but then you wrote an op-ed saying it wasn’t. Which was the LIE, Mr. Rivkin, and which was the TRUTH? And do you know how to tell the difference?
April 20th, 2009 at 2:30 pmAnother AIPAC stooge defending Bushie?
What a surprise.
April 20th, 2009 at 2:31 pmI remember an America where the thought of this sort of ‘moral dilemma’ wouldn’t even be entertained.
Look how far we’ve fallen…..
April 20th, 2009 at 2:33 pmYeah. It’s the good terrorism.
Once again, they redefine torture.
A$$holes.
April 20th, 2009 at 2:34 pmI don’t care how many squares they say are round, a squirrel isn’t a monkey.
April 20th, 2009 at 2:35 pmThis technique could be used for up to 40 seconds — although the CIA orally informed Justice Department lawyers that it would likely not be used for more than 20 seconds at a time.
So they give him ten minute breaks between sessions?
This is another lie by omission, and no one believes that he wasn’t repeatedly ‘boarded, at this late date.
April 20th, 2009 at 2:37 pmThere is NO gray area – waterboarding is torture and torture is illegal no matter what “side” you are on!!!!!!
April 20th, 2009 at 2:37 pmReposting the email I sent to Judge Bybee (and being cc’d far & wide):
___
BTW, I posted his memo here.
April 20th, 2009 at 2:38 pmFrom Bobby G’s posted memo:
Moreover, you have also orally informed us that although some of these techniques may be used with more than once, that
repetition wllI not be substantial because the techniques generally lose their effectiveness after
several repetitions.
So why did they continue to water board the prisoner?
This makes no sense, other than as a truly weak CYA strategy.
April 20th, 2009 at 2:47 pmThis is why it’s important for the Obama Admin. to actually investigate & prosecute…otherwise reich-wingers will be able to rewrite history to their liking.
April 20th, 2009 at 2:48 pmbarfly, Are they union paid breaks? Or are we talking bone breaks.I am still confused about his re-puke speak position can you clarify it for me?
snark
April 20th, 2009 at 2:50 pmDon’t the Zionist’s always have it both ways?
April 20th, 2009 at 2:50 pmI mean, they have their own country now, yet they still run ours and others.
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Dear Mr. Rivkin,
When others point and laugh at your acne…
… Know that they do so not to belittle your belief in your beauty marks.
.
April 20th, 2009 at 2:53 pm…and once again you have the right-wing way of thinking it’s not moral when Americans torture but immoral when others torture abroad.
Where are those tea-draggers now, why aren’t they protesting the release of these torture memos, why aren’t they protesting for removal of Judge Bybee’s removal?
April 20th, 2009 at 2:55 pmThe memos are also revealing about the practice of “waterboarding,” about which there has been so much speculative rage from the program’s opponents.
Love the scare quotes, like the general public doesn’t know what it is by now or is in doubt about what the procedure should be called.
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…and to ensure that the individual did not develop respiratory distress.
Waterboarding by definition induces respiratory distress. If it did not, then it would be completely ineffective as an “interrogation” procudure (I can do scare quotes too!) as nobody would have any difficulty undergoing it.
April 20th, 2009 at 2:57 pm.
I suppose then, that Mr. Rivkin would also postulate that the reporter being held in Iran under suspicion of espionage can also be waterboarded, perhaps?
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April 20th, 2009 at 2:59 pmThe tea party fanatics are nowhere to be found. Why? They don’t give a damn about someone being tortured, but if you try to raise tax!!! OMG!!! It’s suddenly the end of the world. That should tell you something of their mindset.
April 20th, 2009 at 3:01 pmThe how’s and how-to’s of any given torture procedure are irrelevant to any discussion of whether something is torture.
The point is that you are doing something to someone which causes enough pain and/or discomfort to presumably force them to give up secrets that they would be willing to kill or die to protect.
Either the procedure in question is so horrible to endure that it has a chance of doing this, or it is completely ineffective in all cases and therefore unecessary. That is, either it’s torture or you’re just screwing around and wasting your time.
Probably both.
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Perry logan Says:
In right-wing ethics…
I’m trying to wrap my head around that term, and failing. That’s like a right-side-up upside-down cake.
April 20th, 2009 at 3:02 pmladybastet Says:
They don’t give a damn about someone being tortured, but if you try to raise tax!!!
Just waiting for them to show up and compare the two… I’ll bet right now they’d be willing to go there.
April 20th, 2009 at 3:03 pmThis is why Republicans so love the concept of “American exceptionalism”. It allows us to do all the things those bad brown people do but because we’re better than them our motives are pure.
April 20th, 2009 at 3:05 pmCAn we Torture Rivkin’s fat ass??
April 20th, 2009 at 3:07 pmWHY IS THIS EVEN AN ISSUE?!
It should be very straight forward.
WATERBOARDING IS TORTURE.
TORTURE IS ALWAYS WRONG.
We sentenced people to death for waterboarding our soldiers in WWII.
We need to go after the people who ordered this, and other, torture to regain the moral standing of the USA. (Remember “morals” you hypocritical right-whiners?)
April 20th, 2009 at 3:12 pmHmm.. I may be mistaken, but didn’t someone post a youtube video of Joe the “Plumber” at one of those tea parties being asked if he would like to waterboard the president? I sure I at least saw signs people made for them that talks about the idea. Sadly, those weren’t even the worst of them. >.<
So, I guess the only way they can compare the two is by implying anyone they perceive as a threat to their Grover Norquist ideology should be tortured.
Granted ElBruce, that’s probably not what you had in mind, but I guess that’s the kind of thing THEY have in mind.
April 20th, 2009 at 3:16 pmI thought torture was wrong. Must have missed the memo.
Can we have some compound in Utah where these people can go and do whatever the hell they want except leave? Torture, no abortions, men marrying boys (incl. pages), surveillance, guns, blow.
It reminds me of the It’s Always Sunny episode with no rules in the bar.
April 20th, 2009 at 3:22 pmThis is OT, but didn’t anyone see The Daily Show when John Oliver was talking to people at the tea parties? When the credits were rolling they showed this one person saying she refused to talk to John Oliver because she thinks Jon Stewart is a “communist.”
April 20th, 2009 at 3:22 pmDoodlebug Shayne Says:
It’s more of that right wing Authoritarian “Do as I say, not as I do” mentality.
And to add to my previous post:
TORTURE DOESN’T WORK!
You may “break” the person (which may be their actual sick goal — read The Shock Doctrine for more on that) but it never produces good intelligence.
(Sorry for all the shouting but this shit is just getting so old).
April 20th, 2009 at 3:23 pmDoodlebug Shayne Says:
You are correct, Doodle’s.. I recommended your post.
April 20th, 2009 at 3:27 pm“American Exceptionalism”, as used by the right, means that no matter what we do it is good and righteous.
(except when it comes to Democrats)
ladybastet Says:
…they showed this one person saying she refused to talk to John Oliver because she thinks Jon Stewart is a “communist.”
Yeah. Words don’t actually mean things to wingnuts, in terms of having accurate definitions and such. All speech is like “yay” or “boo” to them. Their intellectual capacity has now devolved to the level of a not terribly bright golden retriever. For example, “communist” sort of means “person I don’t like because they hurt my feelings.”
They might as well replace everything they say with “Bark! Bark!” It’d save ‘em some time.
April 20th, 2009 at 3:55 pmHack alert!
April 20th, 2009 at 5:57 pmIs this another neo-con zionist supporting torture? What a surprise…
April 20th, 2009 at 7:30 pmDo these idiots really think that the average person won’t see water boarding (6 times a day for a month), keeping someone awake for 11 days, slamming people into walls, etc, etc, as torture?
April 21st, 2009 at 2:54 amIf they need convincing, let’s give them a little first hand experience to base their position on.
Does that pinhead work for Fox news or is he angling for a future position there?
Just think of the thousands of witches uncovered by the Catholic Church, and the hundreds of thousands un-Cambodian by the Khmer Rouge, thanks to waterboarding! So there you have it: waterboarding is NOT torture, because you still need to kill the people after you’re done waterboarding them; and it yields VALUABLE information (such as: Yes, I confess, I am a witch!) And to think naive liberals will argue that waterboarding is torture, and torture is illegal, and those who order torture should be tried for war crimes… So naive…
April 21st, 2009 at 1:28 pm