Report: Bush Officials Relied On Communist Torture Techniques To Press Detainees For Al Qaeda/Iraq Link
Report: Bush Officials Relied On Communist Torture Techniques To Press Detainees For Al Qaeda/Iraq Link
Late yesterday, the Senate Armed Services Committee made public an unclassified version of its November 2008 report, “Inquiry into the Treatment of Detainees in U.S. Custody.” The report reveals that top Bush administration officials were so eager to start harsh interrogations on detainees that they often ignored warnings from military advisers, skipped a thorough legal review process, and failed to fully investigate the origins of the dangerous techniques. Moreover, the consequences of their actions trickled down to lower-ranking officers and led directly to the abuses at Abu Ghraib. Here are some highlights from the report:
– Top Officials Were Unaware Of The Gruesome Origins Of The Interrogation Program. The Bush administration’s interrogation program was based on the U.S. military program known as Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape (SERE), which is used to train U.S. troops if they are ever tortured by an enemy that doesn’t adhere to the Geneva Conventions. However, none of the top CIA, Cabinet, or congressional officials who approved of the Bush administration’s recommendations knew that SERE was designed around “torture methods used by Communists in the Korean War…that had wrung false confessions from Americans.” These officials were unaware that veteran SERE trainers said the methods were ineffective for getting useful information and the former military psychologist who recommended that the CIA adopt SERE “had never conducted a real interrogation.” One CIA official called the process “a perfect storm of ignorance and enthusiasm.”
– Military Officials Warned That Harsh Interrogation Was Illegal And Ineffective. In November 2002, the Deputy Commander of the Defense Department’s Criminal Investigative Task Force at Gitmo raised concerns that SERE techniques were “developed to better prepare U.S. military personnel to resist interrogations and not as a means of obtaining reliable information.” The Air Force cited “serious concerns regarding the legality of many of the proposed techniques.” The Army, Navy, and Marine Corps raised similar issues, citing “maltreatment” that would “arguably violate federal law.”
– Abusive Tactics Were Used To Search For A Non-Existent Al-Qaeda/Iraq Link. In 2006, former U.S. Army psychiatrist Maj. Charles Burney told investigators that interrogators at Gitmo were under “pressure” to produce evidence of ties between Iraq and al Qaeda, even though they were ultimately unsuccesful. “The more frustrated people got in not being able to establish that link…there was more and more pressure to resort to measures that might produce more immediate results.”
– Top Bush Officials Bypassed Military Concerns. Less than a month after the military voiced their concerns, then-Defense Department general counsel William Haynes sent then-Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld a one-page memo recommending that he approve 15 out of 18 of the torture techniques requested for use at Gitmo. Haynes indicated that he had discussed the issue with Doug Feith, Paul Wolfowitz, and Gen. Richard Myers, all of whom agreed with him. The only legal opinion Haynes cited in the memo was one that senior military advisers had called “legally insufficient” and “woefully inadequate.” Five days later, Rumsfeld signed off on the request.
– Officials Began Preparing Harsh Interrogation Techniques Before They Were Granted Legal Approval. Military and intelligence officials were “exploring ways to break Taliban and al-Qaeda detainees in early 2002, up to eight months before Justice Department lawyers approved the use of waterboarding and nine other harsh methods,” and weeks before the CIA captured its first high-ranking terrorism suspect. In fact, in July 2002 — a month before the Justice Department approved its list of interrogation techniques — instructors at a training seminar told intelligence officials that the harsh measures were already deemed acceptable.
– Bush’s Torture Policies Led To Abuses At Abu Ghraib. In one of its conclusions, the Armed Services Committee writes, “The abuses of detainees at Abu Ghraib in late 2003 was not simply the result of a few soldiers acting on their own. … Rumsfeld’s December 2, 2002 authorization of aggressive interrogation techniques and subsequent interrogation policies and plans approved by senior military and civilian officials conveyed the message that physical pressures and degradation were appropriate treatment for detainees in U.S. custody.”
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Is anyone really surprised by this ?
Not a chance in hell……….
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:08 amAh, so that’s how they got the link. Through “solidly reliable information” obtained by torture.
This must have fulfilled two purposes for them — 1) they got the link between Al Qaeda and Iraq they were looking for, and 2) they were able to claim that torture gave them reliable information.
Both false, of course.
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:11 amMCMetal,
Agreed. I guess we should just be glad Joe Wilson wasn’t fed alpha radiation. I’m sure Rove and Cheney discussed the idea once Putin tried it.
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:12 amReport: Bush Officials Relied On Communist Torture Techniques To Press Detainees For Al Qaeda/Iraq Link »
– - And through the miracle of digital archives, generation upon future generations will be able to look back and draw upon the torture techniques employed by BushCo for all their torturing needs.
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:18 amMr. Holder, your thoughts please .
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:19 amWhat is so sad is that anyone who was aware of the situation in Iraq and what al Qaeda stood for would know that since al Qaeda is so fundamental that they would use WMDs against Iraq for being non-sectarian where men and women alike could have a profession and women did not have to wear burkas. And they tortured people out of this absurd ignorance? It is torture just knowing of idiots like this were running (ruining) our country.
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:20 amI still believe that no justice will come to those in the Bush Administration who had a hand in war crimes until long after they have all lived out their natural lives beyond the reach of the law.
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:20 amDOJ better order their prosecution quickly!!!
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:20 amStupid Git Says:
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MCMetal,
Agreed. I guess we should just be glad Joe Wilson wasn’t fed alpha radiation. I’m sure Rove and Cheney discussed the idea once Putin tried it.
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:12 am
I wouldn’t be surprised to hear that Rove and/or Cheney had conversations with Mob heads or their Consiglieres for their “ideas”…….
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:21 amVery sick puppies. It’s no secret.
And the crimes we are aware of are about to be eclipsed by all the crimes we have yet to discover.
Hang them all from the highest yardarm. Bush must be sweating in his sleep these days.
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:23 amWe are confirming what we already suspected.
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:23 amWho’s the socialist now, beeyotch?
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:24 amThis forms an almost perfect syllogism. PNAC wanted to manufacture evidence of an al qaeda/Iraq link where none could possibly exist. Torture is known to yield unreliable information. Therefore, torture was the way to go.
Too bad it worked for al qaeda as well by eliminating its enemy, Saddam and acting as a wonderful recruiting tool.
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:24 amGet set for the red hot blast of air from the right wingnuts defending all things torture.
1, 2…
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:24 amSo Abu Zubaydah was captured in early April. Bybee’s OLC memo was issued in August. I wonder what nefarious techniques were used on this man during the four months between capture and the approval of torture. About midway between his capture and the approval of torture it has been reported that an FBI special agent walked away from a Zubaydah interrogation session because he thought the techniques being used against him might have risen (or sunk?) to the level of torture. So were these OLC memos written after the fact in hopes to justify it’s use? It sure looks that way. AG HOLDER, WE NEED A SPECIAL PROSECUTOR NAMED NOW TO BEGIN THIS LEGALLY MANDATED INVESTIGATION!
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:26 amWhat fuels an immense amount of outrage is that these people are actually admitting to this, in public, even bragging about it and somehow the DOJ (and the President) seem to think we don’t have an urgent need to bring these people to justice.
If we won’t even investigate, let alone prosecute, war crimes and torture will the last person leaving what’s left of the country please turn off the lights?
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:27 amReport: Bush Officials Relied On Communist Torture Techniques To Press Detainees For Al Qaeda/Iraq Link
– - See what Bush toadie Marc Thiessen said in an op-ed in the WaPo yesterday?
“In other words, the terrorists are called by their faith to resist as far as they can — and once they have done so, they are free to tell everything they know. This is because of their belief that “Islam will ultimately dominate the world and that this victory is inevitable.” The job of the interrogator is to safely help the terrorist do his duty to Allah, so he then feels liberated to speak freely.”
Wow.
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:32 amThis alleged ignorance is not a defense for war crimes. The notion that any American adult is not aware that these actions are not torture is laughable. If there is any ignorance of the history of these torture techniques it is willful ignorance.
Historically, we have not accepted the idea that torturers were just doing their job or that they didn’t know it was technically torture as defenses. These people committed heinous crimes against humanity. If we are still a nation of laws they must be investigated and prosecuted.
In any case, the legal house of cards built by John Yoo and others gives the lie to this narrative. Why would the administration go to such lengths to justify their use of torture if they didn’t think it was torture to begin with?
How many more justifications and excuses will we be treated to before somebody is held accountable for these atrocities?
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:35 amI am so glad this will all be over soon when Pres. Obama goes and talks with those al Qaeda guys and they sign a contract to start building “green” electric cars for the American fleet and the world….turning AK-47’s into bumpers and dash boards, cars that will burn the cheap gas from Venezuela and Iran. The streets of Havana will soon be filled with these Eco friendly cars instead of junkers from the 1950’s and there will be much singing and dancing again all across South America…
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:35 amWouldn’t Slappy just sh*t himself if that actually happened?
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:38 amHoodathunktick, is “actuality” a necessary factor?
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:41 amSlappyBastinado Says:
Slappy, why do you love communist torture techniques?
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:42 amPresident Obama’s national intelligence director said in an internal memo:
“High-value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qaeda organization that was attacking this country,” Director of National Intelligence Dennis Blair said in a memo to personnel.
But this Cheney-esque assessment, as well as a remark empathizing with Bush administration officials, was cut from a memo the Obama administration released to the media.
The assessment by Admiral Blair represents a shift for him since he took office. When he was nominated for the position and appeared before the Senate intelligence committee on Jan. 22, he said: “I believe strongly that torture is not moral, legal or effective.”
So, will anything really change re: enhanced-interrogation methods?
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:42 amMy take on this is that Dick Cheney at his overzealous worst demanded that the CIA find that elusive link between Iraq and al Queda. This part is well documented. He was told repeatedly within days of 9/11 by top intelligence officials that no link existed. He was determined (with pressure from his oil and PNAC buddies) to go into Iraq and get that damned oil, they had been looking for any excuse to go in and this was more than they could have hoped for. He decided that it would be just fine to authorize torturing the detainees in order to gain a coerced confession prooving the non-existent link. He had to be well aware of the unreliability of confessions gained through torture but he didn’t care, he needed that oil and was going to get it no matter what stood in his way. An inadmissible, coersed confession would not hold up in court but prosecuting detainees was no concern for Cheney. All he needed was a justification and he got it. I deeply feel that if a timeline were ever put together that it would show that every time the terror threat level was raised that it was through false info gained from torture. Once again Cheney didn’t care if the intel was true, just that it gave the WH a plausible reason for keeping it’s citizens terrified and went a long way in helping push the Administration’s agenda. Any time legitimate complaints were made or hints of illegalities were leaked the WH suddenly had a new threat to keep the nation behind it’s agenda. This is looking more and more like a RICO case in it’s elaborate design and intricate and detailed legal parsings. An American Presidential Administration starting a pre-emptive and unjustified war, approving war crimes and carelessly sending thousands of Americans to fight to the death so that a traitorous group like PNAC and a handful of corporate ceo’s and oilmen could reep more rewards. The economic meltdown last September is looking like another branch of the same agenda, forcing Congress through intimidation and fear to rush through legislation written solely to insure financial largess for their corporate friends. May they all rot in jail for the rest of their lives.
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:44 amHi Slappy
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:46 amDo you bum out when that Kennedy kid gets home heating oil for the elderly?
SlappyBastinado – did your mother drop you on your head when you were little? Poor little brain-damaged bastid needs attention.
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:47 amOn Sept. 12, 2001, Rumsfeld said “sweep it all up. Things relevant and not.”
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:47 amAnd they did.
And Dick Durbin was bullied by the GOP to apologize for comparing U.S. “enhanced interrogation” to Hitler’s, Stalin’s and Mao’s techniques.
They tortured people to give them the answers they wanted to have the war they were planning in 1998 at PNAC.
Talk about stovepiping.
Rumsfeld and Cheney are war criminals.
When all lies fail blame it on the Russians. No one took notice in the Press that Russia gave a Memorial Plate for the 9/11 attack to the US in 2002. Funny how we attacked Iran President for just wanting to say a prayer and put flowers at the site. Next the desfense will be it was the Korean War that made them use the torture on kids.
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:49 amThe pinko commie scum known as the Bush administration deserve everything they got coming to them.
I was wondering how they could have really believed in such things as Al Qaeda palling around with Saddam. Previously it was just a seventhhand rumor by an ex-Iraqi who was being paid in cash to make up seventhhand rumors. But if you believe “torture works” and you torture somebody to make them confirm the rumor, then it must be true!
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Keith H. Says:
Mr. Holder, your thoughts please .
Actually I’d prefer if Holder & Co. kept their nose to the grindstone preparing the cases and away from the spotlight.
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mary lacewing Says:
The assessment by Admiral Blair represents a shift for him since he took office. When he was nominated for the position and appeared before the Senate intelligence committee on Jan. 22, he said: “I believe strongly that torture is not moral, legal or effective.”
So, will anything really change re: enhanced-interrogation methods?
Nothing will change re: suckups trying to stay employed.
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:49 amhttp://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30335592/
Intel chief: Harsh techniques brought good info
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:51 amPrivate memo says interrogation methods helped nation in terrorism fight
Why is it when they refer to these techniques in any other frame, from the Inquisition to WWII to North Korean and North Vietnamese actions, they are called torture and when the Bush Administration indulged in the exact same things it is called enhanced interrogation techniques?
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:51 amSlaphappy, were you tortured so badly that you’ve taken leave of what little mind the glue huffing didn’t destroy?
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:51 amshoeless Chilopoda Says:
SlappyBastinado Says:
Slappy, why do you love communist torture techniques?====================================================
They have worked very well in Cuba to keep people in line as Michael Moore has fully documented, they have much better health care, 93% or all citizens work for the government so unlike the US there is no unemployment, recessions are never an issue, beautiful weather, all of the punks are where they should be, locked up, oh, and none of this pampering of criminals like in Gitmo either, its heaven on earth, MAN!
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:52 amVery apropos, Slappy. Comparing the US to a third world country. Especially one that does have nationalized healthcare.
I bet you are proud to make that comparison.
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:57 amAnd Bush and Cheney (WAR CRIMINALS) are going to walk free because the ReichWingers would throw a fit*
*ie Sour grapes, sore loser Tea Party idiots & Rush the Dominication Underage Prostitutes Abuser.
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:59 amJohnM Says:
Intel chief: Harsh techniques brought good info
Private memo says interrogation methods helped nation in terrorism fight
And if you read further, he also says that there’s every probability that the information could have been obtained through more ‘traditional’ methods.
He also says that the information gained wasn’t so valuable that it was worth the amount of negative feedback (such as enhancing recruiting for terrorist cells) that the techniques created.
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:59 amSlappyBastinado
April 22nd, 2009 at 12:00 pmYou talk silly talk….
>Intel chief: Harsh techniques brought good info
About what plots?
Did this secret memo actually mention any?
If raping children brough us “good info” should we do that too?
April 22nd, 2009 at 12:02 pmHoodathunktick Says:
Why is it when they refer to these techniques in any other frame, from the Inquisition to WWII to North Korean and North Vietnamese actions, they are called torture and when the Bush Administration indulged in the exact same things it is called enhanced interrogation techniques?
PR baby, PR. Why did the Bush administration call their go-ahead-and-pollute-the-air-more program ‘Clear Skies’?
April 22nd, 2009 at 12:07 pmChocolate Jesus Says:
>Intel chief: Harsh techniques brought good info
About what plots?
Did this secret memo actually mention any?
If raping children brough us “good info” should we do that too?
According to some of our regular trolls, as long as the child being raped wasn’t their child, and it might in fact save their child, then that would be fine with them.
April 22nd, 2009 at 12:11 pmThe pathetically hilarious irony of the apologists is that their hero, good old Jack, indulges in his version of enhanced interrogation to discover the proverbial ticking bomb.
Just how much information do these clowns think they are going to get out of detainees who have been out of the system for over a week? Any ticking bomb they might have known about has either exploded or all the plans were changed. And they know it because it is SOP in every intelligence service to change anything a captured agent may be able to sell out.
April 22nd, 2009 at 12:21 pmOh, I see. You are a communist. Will you Republicans be renaming your party now?
April 22nd, 2009 at 12:28 pmYes, who knew communists were so silly?
April 22nd, 2009 at 12:29 pmJust out of curiosity, how many people on this chain have gone through the SERE training?
April 22nd, 2009 at 12:32 pmI went through hazing in college.
April 22nd, 2009 at 12:35 pmthinkthinkthink Says:
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Just out of curiosity, how many people on this chain have gone through the SERE training?
April 22nd, 2009 at 12:32 pm
How many in the Bush administration went through it ?
April 22nd, 2009 at 12:45 pmSlappyBastinado Says:
——————————————————————————–
shoeless Chilopoda Says:
SlappyBastinado Says:
Slappy, why do you love communist torture techniques?====================================================
They have worked very well in Cuba to keep people in line
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:52 am
Which readily explains why there’s been over 500 attempts by fellow Cubans alone to assassinate Castro ……….
April 22nd, 2009 at 12:46 pmChocolate Jesus Says:
If raping children brought us “good info” should we do that too?
Excellent analogy. And it reminds me that rape has been used as torture in Darfur and other places. Would the Bush/Cheney/conservative torture pushers say that rape is not torture because no one loses a limb or an eye or has burning coals poured on them? After all, it’s a pleasurable activity and causes no long term injury. As McCain reportedly joked, the person should lie back and be happy about it. Yet clearly rape is torture because it’s about control, physical and psychological over the person being tortured, not simply pain or injury. Anyone who has been tortured and any expert on torture can tell you that.
April 22nd, 2009 at 12:57 pmthinkthinkthink Says:
Just out of curiosity, how many people on this chain have gone through the SERE training?
SERE training is vastly different from torture. The soldiers in SERE training can say at any time, STOP, ENOUGH, and know that it will stop. The soldiers know that they are ultimately safe and secure and have access to legal remedies at any time. This is NOT torture.
April 22nd, 2009 at 1:00 pmCZ-1 when were you tortured and under what circumstances?
That analogy also falls short on so many levels.
Im not defending the bush administration, but i dont think anyone is losing limbs, eyes, or having hot coals dumped on them. Darfur is a compeltely different situation as well.
April 22nd, 2009 at 1:04 pmHumans, having intelligence, language, and history, can learn from the experiences of others and the expertise of those who have extensively studied the matter. I have learned from reading accounts of those who have been tortured and from experts (including a relative of mine) who have dealt with many victims of torture. So I don’t have to be a victim of torture to be able to pass along this information.
April 22nd, 2009 at 1:07 pmDon’t you have to be in the military to get that training? If so, the answer would be zero.
April 22nd, 2009 at 1:08 pmChocolate Jesus Says:
——————————————————————————–
>Intel chief: Harsh techniques brought good info
About what plots?
Did this secret memo actually mention any?
If raping children brough us “good info” should we do that too?
Your analogy makes no sense. How could raping children possibly bring information regarding terrorism? While harsh interrogations of terrorists obviously has brought us information.
April 22nd, 2009 at 1:10 pmEver notice when someone says, “I’m not defending so and so”, what inevitably follows is a defense of so and so?
April 22nd, 2009 at 1:10 pmSlappyBastinado Says:
They have worked very well in Cuba to keep people in line…
Is this sarcasm? I can’t tell. If it is, what’s it directed at? Please explain.
.
President Obama’s national intelligence director said in an internal memo:
“High-value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used…”
…on Jan. 22, he said: “I believe strongly that torture is not moral, legal or effective.”
I just thought of an instance where both of these statements could be viewed as true: if you don’t consider the truth to be “high value information” then it did indeed come from torturing detainees. They got one of them to agree to confessing a link between Al Qaeda and Iraq, which we then used to justify invading Iraq. That’s “high value” to the Bush administration. However, it’s also true that torture is not moral, legal or effective.
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CZ-1 Says:
Would the Bush/Cheney/conservative torture pushers say that rape is not torture because no one loses a limb or an eye or has burning coals poured on them?
I believe that rape would fall under allowable practice according to the OLC memos, yes. Provided that there’s an EMT on staff standing by with an emergency botle of lube.
That wasn’t a joke, btw.
April 22nd, 2009 at 1:12 pmIf Cheney said he would have someone rape your child unless you told him what he wanted to hear about your terroristic activities, what would you do?
April 22nd, 2009 at 1:12 pmBush, must have really sucked at history and at bible studies as well.
Not only did he try to use the tactics of the side that LOST the cold war, he tortured and martyred fanatic fringe religious zealots, ask the Roman Empire how that worked against the early Christians.
If you willfully ignore history, you are doomed to be stupid and incompetent…
April 22nd, 2009 at 1:12 pmI don’t know. How does putting children into a box full of insects or crushing their balls bring information regarding terrorism? You should write to Dick Cheney and ask him.
April 22nd, 2009 at 1:12 pm“If Cheney said he would have someone rape your child unless you told him what he wanted to hear about your terroristic activities, what would you do”
Hmmm, you might google Abu Ghraib and rape and you might find some not so theoretical examples of what you probably intended as an example “beyond the pale”…
April 22nd, 2009 at 1:13 pmElBruce Says:
I believe that rape would fall under allowable practice according to the OLC memos, yes. Provided that there’s an EMT on staff standing by with an emergency bottle of lube.
That wasn’t a joke, btw.
EXACTLY. That’s the thought that crossed my mind. Damn scary.
April 22nd, 2009 at 1:14 pmCZ-1:
Again, Im not siding with bush nor am I a torture advocate, but I have little sympathy for those who have endured discomort (to put it mildly) at gitmo and elsewhere.
Having been through SERE training in certain forms (as different branches have different versions), when you say stop, they tend to not, because they no you will and in a real situation, you cannot say stop and everything is fine. But, the point of SERE is more than withstanding basic torture techniques.
I would also ask did the 3000 people in the WTC have a chance to say stop?
Granted the US should hold itself to a higher standard, but these guys are out to kill americans and those who side with them, and that alone leaves me with no sympathy for them–good example: Abdullah Ghulam Rasoul–we freed him and he is now back in afghanistan taking aim at our soldiers.
April 22nd, 2009 at 1:16 pmraynman Says:
——————————————————————————–
JohnM Says:
Intel chief: Harsh techniques brought good info
Private memo says interrogation methods helped nation in terrorism fight
And if you read further, he also says that there’s every probability that the information could have been obtained through more ‘traditional’ methods.
He also says that the information gained wasn’t so valuable that it was worth the amount of negative feedback (such as enhancing recruiting for terrorist cells) that the techniques created.
Actually this is what he said.
“The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means,”
April 22nd, 2009 at 1:17 pmYes, but you get an invitation to a Tea Bag Party.
April 22nd, 2009 at 1:17 pmIf you aren’t siding with Bush, would you stop siding with Bush.
April 22nd, 2009 at 1:20 pmthinkthinkthink Says:
CZ-1:
Again, Im not siding with bush nor am I a torture advocate, but I have little sympathy for those who have endured discomort (to put it mildly) at gitmo and elsewhere.
Maybe you should think, think, think about that because all of the prisoners at Gitmo were assumed guilty without having any trial and tortured. Yet many of the prisoners at Gitmo were over time found to be innocent or at least there was no evidence that they were guilty and they were released. But you’re okay with that collateral damage because you think it’s all worth it. That’s one place we disagree.
April 22nd, 2009 at 1:21 pm.
And look who the (R)ushpublickin’s call the Commie…
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April 22nd, 2009 at 1:25 pmWay past my lunch time. I’ll check back in bit.
April 22nd, 2009 at 1:25 pmCan you please make one post without contradicting yourself from one sentence to the next. How can the US hold itself to a higher standard if it doesn’t hold itself to a higher standard.
When you walk, do you bump into yourself a lot?
April 22nd, 2009 at 1:25 pmShoeless–People are so quick to say “I am not defending” because most in here are so quick to point the finger and say repugnician, troll, etc. just for offering a mildly different slant.
There was no defense of Bush policy in what I said. Since I was not saying “Lets send the BUsh administration to GITMO!” i know it may look that way.
Rape is a poor example. And to say “if cheney said_____ or ____ would happen to your child..” you can fill in a lot of things.
I am no troll, or whatever you want to say, but having known people at the pentagon on 9/11, with numerous friends serving in Iraq and Afghanistan, and being one who works with many who saw their fair share in vietnam, I dont feel sympathy for them.
I would also say, if it is information we are after, then the methods used were almost 100% pointless. And in that regard, the Bush administration is completely guilty and fails at the constituion’s mandate for the government to protect and defend its citizens.For not taking appropriate action and essentially adopting efforts contradictory to gaining the necessary intelligence to save US soldiers and US allies lives–to me is the worst travesty and criminal.
April 22nd, 2009 at 1:35 pmTo the torture apologists here, the issue isn’t so much feeling “sorry for” those who were tortured. Don’t you get it? Now we have no moral ground to stand on if our soldiers get tortured. Thanks to ‘enhanced interrogation techniques’ we have lost the ability to criticize any other country’s civil rights violations.
In some cases we were outright USED. We’ve become the planetary thugs other countries have been suspecting we were. The ends do NOT justify the means. Who would Jesus torture? For a country that so many insist is a ‘Christian’ country we sure are a bloodthirsty bunch.
Torture of detainees actually served as a recruiting poster for Al Qaeda and alienated the United States from much of the world. Some people caught up were not terrorists, and that even further degraded our reputation for being a country of justice under law.
Quote above from a passionate article by Brian Ross in which he speculates what exactly is Cheney up to. One thing we know for sure, it’s nothing good.
April 22nd, 2009 at 1:38 pmShoeless-HA, I figured someone would point out the “contradiction”. In my honest opinion, I think too much information is shared that shouldn’t be. The US should hold itself to a higher standard. Similarly, we should hold ourselves to the higher standard of reducing our nuclear stockpile, but in reality we dont really make moves towards that.
Its not siding with Bush, the sooner you stop harping on that the better it will be. Not defending the immediate release and accomodation in the nearest hilton for those in these camps is not the same as taking BUsh’s side. Thanks.
CZ-1–Not all prisoners were tortured, yea a good number were released for the reasons you mention. I think it is sad to say (because for a long time I would have made your points), but I think you are correct it in your analysis–I am more willing to take the collateral damage.
April 22nd, 2009 at 1:51 pmWell you might not be and those who understood might not be but lets not digress from the importance of these revelations to the general public who is not as informed as the average blogger.
Of course they’re surprised. We’ve been telling them this stuff all along but now it’s official.
This means that George W Bush criminally “tortured” people and THATS why we ended up in Iraq.
Because he tortured people into telling him what he wanted to hear so he could invade Iraq.
That’s EARTHSHAKING news.
That’s the end of the ball game.
April 22nd, 2009 at 1:55 pmthinkthinkthink Says:
Im not defending the bush administration, but i dont think anyone is losing limbs, eyes, or having hot coals dumped on them. Darfur is a compeltely different situation as well.
April 22nd, 2009 at 1:04 pm
___________
No, they were just thrown into walls, shackled in stress positions, deprived of sleep, and had water forced into their lungs 183 times in a month.
Guess what – it’s still torture. It’s still a crime against humanity.
April 22nd, 2009 at 1:56 pmthinkthinkthink Says:
I think it is sad to say (because for a long time I would have made your points), but I think you are correct it in your analysis–I am more willing to take the collateral damage.
April 22nd, 2009 at 1:51 pm
_____________
Oh, so you’re having your lungs filled with water, then? You’re being imprisoned indefinitely? You’re having your head slammed into a wall repeatedly? Is that what you mean by “I’m willing to take the collateral damage?”
I think what you mean is “I’m willing to have OTHER PEOPLE take the collateral damage.”
Pervert.
April 22nd, 2009 at 1:58 pmIt was all a defense of Bush.
April 22nd, 2009 at 2:31 pmChiroptera Toasterhead-Wow chill out. Most of that stuff sounds like pledging. You need to get hazed a bit.
“other people”??? — you are a discriminatory fool. Who is that exactly? How about US soldiers having their heads cut off on tv for the world to see? how bout bodies being dismembered, burned, and hung from bridges? How about the US civilians that have been taken away, middle of the night, never heard from again, new reporters that have been taken by these guys. Cry me a river and hold your pervert accusations. You think those guys take prisoners?
Also please realize most of the people we take prisoner we dont know about, and most are sent to places we have never heard of or know exist other than “CIA locations aroudn the world.”
Lacewing-good point in first paragraph. What would jesus do is again a weak point though isnt it? Nation’s do not conduct themselves under the policies of “what jesus would do” if they did, they would not survive.
April 22nd, 2009 at 2:42 pmShoeless–you just cant hear another side than your own.
April 22nd, 2009 at 2:43 pmAfter all that. After all their lies are exposed: ‘we don’t TORTURE”the USA does not TORTURE’…
‘WMD”Saddam Hussein is adicted to WMD”He is seeking nuclear weapons’
‘Iran’
Does anyone still believe that they were saying the truth regarding 9/11????!!!
They were constantly saying LIES!
…and one more thing, TORTURE is a WAR CRIMES, but so is a WAR OF AGRESSION!
April 22nd, 2009 at 3:15 pmthinkthinkthink Says:
Rape is a poor example. And to say “if cheney said_____ or ____ would happen to your child..” you can fill in a lot of things.
On the contrary, rape is a perfect example because there is no cutting, burning, crushing, smashing, slicing, blood, or removal of any body parts. Thus it fits Cheney’s definition of enhanced interrogation technique and so he would be willing to use it. In fact, rape of the child of the prisoner being interrogated is once removed from the prisoner, so it’s definitely not torturing him, is it? Of course it’s torture. NOW do you see what is and isn’t torture? It’s not just about cutting off fingers or putting out cigarettes on someone’s chest.
April 22nd, 2009 at 3:15 pmWell why not? Might as well learn from the experts. After all if we can be supported by money from communist China, then why not their expertise on torture? During the Korean war, they used it on our men. Why some of those techniques are practically a re-run. And we all like those old re-runs. Don’t we.
April 22nd, 2009 at 3:26 pmthinkthinkthink Says:
“other people”??? — you are a discriminatory fool. Who is that exactly? How about US soldiers having their heads cut off on tv for the world to see? how bout bodies being dismembered, burned, and hung from bridges? How about the US civilians that have been taken away, middle of the night, never heard from again, new reporters that have been taken by these guys. Cry me a river and hold your pervert accusations. You think those guys take prisoners?
Most of that is war (the Iraq war), and war is hell, and Bush chose war when it wasn’t necessary. Again: Bush chose war against Iraq. When we bombed Iraq in the “Shock and Awe” campaign, we were using terror against innocents. During the invasion of Iraq, we bombed “leadership targets” 50 times in an effort to kill Saddam and/or his top leaders, and we failed every single time. Each time those bombings had to be approved by Bush or Rumsfeld if it was known that there would be collateral damage above a certain number–and they approved every single time. Those bombings only killed and terrified innocents, hundreds of them. But you’re okay with the collateral damage.
The rest of your paragraph is terrorism committed by terrorists. If we torture people, especially people who are equally likely to be innocent, then that is terrorism committed by terrorists = us. Again: Terrorists = U.S.A. when we torture. But you’re okay with the collateral damage.
Or can you see that side of the argument?
April 22nd, 2009 at 3:29 pmthinkthinkthink Says:
…these guys are out to kill americans and those who side with them, and that alone leaves me with no sympathy for them…
None of our many arguments against the validity of torture ask you to have any sympathy with anyone. “Sympathy” doesn’t even enter into the equation. Liberals don’t make policy based on our feelings.
.
thinkthinkthink Says:
The US should hold itself to a higher standard. Similarly, we should hold ourselves to the higher standard of reducing our nuclear stockpile, but in reality we dont really make moves towards that.
Before Bush came along, torture was considered to be universally morally reprehensible by everybody. Probably including you. We’re just suggesting that we start acting like humans again, not that we do anything particularly difficult. Really, it’s not that hard to be a halfway decent human being. Y’all make it sound like a huuuuge chore. Personally, I find it extremely easy to not torture people. In fact I’m halfway through my day and haven’t tortured anybody. Haven’t even considered it. Maybe that’s because I’m such a radical leftist, but if so then so was almost the entire world right up until Bush happened to it.
April 22nd, 2009 at 4:11 pmElBruce Says:
Maybe that’s because I’m such a radical leftist, but if so then so was almost the entire world right up until Bush happened to it.
Bumper sticker: Bush happens. :(
April 22nd, 2009 at 4:39 pmthinkthinkthink Says: Having been through SERE training in certain forms (as different branches have different versions), when you say stop, they tend to not, because they no you will and in a real situation, you cannot say stop and everything is fine.
I keep thinking about SERE training (Survive, Evade, Resist, Extract). It seems to me it’s a lot like riding an extreme rollercoaster.
You get on and you realize this is more than you wanted. You scream, you ask for it to stop, you ask to get off. But you can’t right away. You have to wait it out for another minute or so. It seems almost unbearable. You grit your teeth and bear it. Because you know that it will end soon, you know that ultimately you are safe and secure and you have all legal remedies available. And then it ends.
I haven’t had the SERE training, but it seems to me that it would be something like that scenario.
It’s not like that for a prisoner being held indefinitely with no legal recourse, no idea when the torture will end, no way of knowing how far the torturer will go.
April 22nd, 2009 at 5:14 pmthinkthinkthink Says: CZ-1–Not all prisoners were tortured, yea a good number were released for the reasons you mention.
Right. That was the result of rushed sentence construction. I didn’t mean to say all were tortured. I admit I don’t know the proportion; it may be less than half were tortured. I’m thinking it may be more than half were released due to innocence or lack of any evidence.
April 22nd, 2009 at 5:26 pmThe SERE’s training is administered to very few MOS’s, to the best of my knowledge (SpOps, Rangers, Seals). Those who are trained as interrogators know where the line is drawn. What I’ve been told from a “dirty little bird” is, that in the past (before Bush)if a prisoner was not “cooperating” , we just turned the prisoner over to their enemy military intelligence and turn our backs…as in, North Koreans, for instance, treat enemy prisoner’s beyond the our limitations. In other words, our people allows other countries do our dirty work and have for years so that we can have “clean hands”…dirty little secret of “dirty little birds”.
April 22nd, 2009 at 5:55 pm——————————————————————————–
CZ-1 Says:
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JohnM Says:
If raping children brough us “good info” should we do that too?
Your analogy makes no sense. How could raping children possibly bring information regarding terrorism? While harsh interrogations of terrorists obviously has brought us information.
If Cheney said he would have someone rape your child unless you told him what he wanted to hear about your terroristic activities, what would you do?
Nice leap you are making there. Waterboarding to rape…wow of children…wow.
April 22nd, 2009 at 6:01 pmThough it is not visually dramatic in the way that waterboarding is, sensory deprivation is torture. It is so destructive to the human psyche that even volunteers can barely tolerate it.
link
April 22nd, 2009 at 6:44 pmI suspect that the focus on waterboarding might serve to protect other forms of torture.
JohnM Says:
Nice leap you are making there. Waterboarding to rape…wow of children…wow.
I didn’t originally bring up the rape or rape of a child example (Chocolate Jesus did at post #43), but I did latch on to it as a perfect example (see post #84) to discuss the logical aspects of the questions about what is torture.
Torture is horrible, isn’t it? Does that mean we can’t discuss it? Rape has been used as torture around the world, and torture by rape is horrible. But no body parts are lost or damaged by rape. Cheney and others have done–by their orders–comparably horrible things in your name, using your tax dollars, while proclaiming all along how righteous they were and asking God to bless them.
April 22nd, 2009 at 8:09 pmwiley Says:
Though it is not visually dramatic in the way that waterboarding is, sensory deprivation is torture. It is so destructive to the human psyche that even volunteers can barely tolerate it.
Very interesting post. Thank you for the information. Another excellent example of devastating torture that doesn’t remove or damage any body parts. I recall the movie, Altered States, where the fictional story has sensory deprivation actually change or revert someone’s DNA!
April 22nd, 2009 at 8:18 pmIn most cases, it makes subjects schizoid.
There is no excuse for any kind of torture. I have seen interviews with people who were tortured in Central America, in which they said that the psychological torture was the hardest to bear.
link
Sensory deprivation experiments have been used a lot in brainwashing techniques. I have to wonder if the administration was trying to convince some people that they were terrorists.
April 22nd, 2009 at 9:13 pmJohnM Says:
Nice leap you are making there. Waterboarding to rape…wow of children…wow.
We have to ask. I mean, I didn’t think that there was a significant percentage of the population who would get behind the things this administration has done. Since you’re supporting torture, I really have no idea at what point somebody like you draws the line. It keeps getting worse, and all of you are still in lockstep. If the next memo to be released said that Bush and Cheney had authorized child rape, would you still be defending them? I honestly have no idea.
April 22nd, 2009 at 10:43 pmslappyMoron
It is time to kill yourself slappy. You are so stupid and pathetic that at this point the only thing you accomplish is to waste oxygen that lifeforms capable of higher brain function could be using.
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:39 pm