Liz Cheney Claims Waterboading Isn’t Torture Because Similar Tactics Were Used In SERE Training
Liz Cheney Claims Waterboading Isn’t Torture Because Similar Tactics Were Used In SERE Training
On MSNBC this afternoon, former State Department official Liz Cheney, who is the daughter of Vice President Dick Cheney, defended the infamous Bush-era torture memos that were recently released by the Obama administration. “The tactics are not torture, we did not torture,” said Cheney.
To support her claim that the brutal techniques, such as waterboarding, that were authorized by the memos are not torture, Cheney invoked the common conservative argument that the techniques were derived from special forces training called Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Evasion (SERE):
O’DONNELL: Well Liz, we’ll get to that argument in a minute, about whether the means justify the ends, whether torture justifies itself…
CHENEY: Well, it wasn’t torture, so that’s not the right way to lay out the argument.
O’DONNELL: Ok.
CHENEY: Everything that was done in this program, as has been laid out and described before, are tactics that our own people go through in SERE training.
Later in the interview, Cheney insisted that “We did not torture our own people. These techniques are not torture.” Watch it:
As Media Matters noted when Fox News’ Jim Angle pushed the same argument, the Bush Justice Department acknowledged in one of the torture memos that waterboarding detainees is “a very different situation” from what went on in SERE training:
Individuals undergoing SERE training are obviously in a very different situation from detainees undergoing interrogation; SERE trainees know it is part of a training program, not a real-life interrogation regime, they presumably know it will last only a short time, and they presumably have assurances that they will not be significantly harmed by the training.
On Monday, Time’s Michael Scherer and Bobby Ghosh noted that a CIA inspector general report had found that the waterboarding used on detainees “was significantly different from that used in the SERE program“:
However, the IG investigation found that the waterboarding technique used on the CIA’s detainees was significantly different from that used in the SERE program: most notably, the Agency’s interrogators used much larger volumes of water.
The IG also cites the CIA’s Office of Medical Services (OMS) in saying that the “the expertise of the SERE psychologists/interrogators … was probably misrepresented.” The IG concluded: “Consequently, according to OMS, there was no a priori reason to believe that applying the waterboard with the frequency and intensity with which it was used … was either efficacious or medically safe.” In fact, the IG report also hints that the CIA didn’t consult the OMS on waterboarding until quite late: “OMS was neither consulted nor involved in the initial analysis of the risk and benefits of [enhanced interrogation techniques].”
Finally, there is no credible way that Cheney can claim that trainees undergoing waterboarding during SERE training had it applied to them with “the frequency and intensity with which it was used” on detainees. As Marcy Wheeler pointed out, one of the released memos revealed that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times in March 2003 and Abu Zubaydah was waterboarded 83 times in August 2002.
Transcript:
O’DONNELL: Well Liz, we’ll get to that argument in a minute, about whether the means justify the ends, whether torture justifies itself…CHENEY: Well, it wasn’t torture, so that’s not the right way to lay out the argument.
O’DONNELL: Ok.
CHENEY: Everything that was done in this program, as has been laid out and described before, are tactics that our own people go through in SERE training.
O’DONNELL: I want…
CHENEY: And that our own people have gone through for many years, so it’s really does a fundamental disservice to those professionals who are conducting this very effective program and to those people who approved the program in order to keep this nation safe and prevent an attack through the program, to call it torture.
[...]
CHENEY: What I’m saying is that there were a series of tactics, a series of techniques that had all been done to our own people. We did not torture our own people. These techniques are not torture. The memos laid out…
O’DONNELL: Did we torture other people?
CHENEY: The memos, no.
O’DONNELL: You just said we don’t torture our own people.
CHENEY: Therefore the tactics are not torture, we did not torture. The memos lay out the extent of exactly how far we could go before it would become torture because it was very important that we not cross that line into torture.
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Heh. Obviously that rotten apple hasn’t fallen far from the tree…
April 23rd, 2009 at 4:54 pmLaurence O’Donnell appeared on the show right after and was pissed. He said he would have liked to have been on the show to refute Cheney’s lies but just like her father she won’t appear on any show where she can be challenged.
He was mad as a hornet. He makes me swoon.
April 23rd, 2009 at 4:55 pmLike Atrios sez: I can live with alleged torture.
Between the secessionists, the torturers and the racists in the Republican Party, it’s downright hard to find someone willing to wave an American flag these days.
Hang ‘em high.
April 23rd, 2009 at 4:57 pmThere are non-verbal signals a military recruit can give to their waterboarders to stop.
What a g*dd*mned f**king liar Liz Cheney is. It will never stop.
Not even when we put them all in jail for a long, long time.
April 23rd, 2009 at 4:58 pmLiz Cheney needs to be informed before she speaks.
April 23rd, 2009 at 4:59 pmHey – if my Dad was responsible for a torture program, I would not want to believe it either.
April 23rd, 2009 at 4:59 pmIsnt the reason they go to the SERE program is to learn how to combat Torture techniques if they are ever captured ??
Only the really dim think this is not torture.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:00 pmIf waterboarding isn’t torture, what about bugs?
Bush Administration authorized use of insects in interrogations
Bush memos parallel claim 9/11 mastermind’s children were tortured with insects
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:01 pmLet’s waterboard Liz 183 times and see if she thinks it’s torture.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:02 pmO’DONNELL: Ok.
NO it’s not OK!!! Lying, distorting, misleading, and general dishonesty are NOT OK!!
Torturing in its full “glory” is NOT OK!!!
Terrorizing people to get them to give up information is NOT OK!!!
Us acting like Them is NOT OK!!!
OK?
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:03 pmThe reight-wing is framing the argument…they are being allowed to do so…this is why investigation and prosecution is vital to not letting this ugly period of U.S. history slide down the memory hole.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:04 pmLiz Cheney needs to be reformed before she speaks.
Fixed it.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:04 pmNo surprise that the offspring of a war criminal is going to spew lies to defend him before he is accused and prosecuted. Look at the disfunction brought on by Cheney and his wife and this offspring.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:05 pmit’s all republican magic, isn’t it?
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:07 pmJust really looking for a confession to go to war with Iraq vs. we were protecting Americans….no matter…one’s as good as the other isn’t it?…. while American values can go to hell….
Why is any one giving press at all to the Cheney’s ….Dick…or any other Cheney?
There are graveyards full of American veterans who fought and died for our values as Americans, and to hear some phony patriot, who was truly just interested in
carrying out an American Shock Doctrine, makes me sick and disgusted…
I spit on Dick Cheney…..
The lid is off. The torture conspiracy is unstoppably unraveling. Expect a growing shitstorm of frantic Gooper red herring distractions and laughable “definition-of-IS” parsing.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:10 pmLooks like Daddy taught her well!
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:10 pmLiz Cheney had better be glad Lawrence O’Donnell didn’t get her lying a$$ because he would’ve set her backside on fire! He’s no joke – totally love watching him ripping Pat Buchanan to shreds!
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:13 pmSo Dick Cheney is running around slamming the hell out of Obama for being “weak” and now his daughter is defending torture.
You know what this sounds like to me, a move by Dick Cheney to circumvent any possible legal action against him. I wondered WHY the hell Cheney has been blasting the hell out of Obama. I mean what the hell is motive. Now Cheney’s daughter is in on it.
Cheney is trying to build a case for justifiable torture because he is probably one of the main authors for torture and if this becomes a punishable offense (one can hope) then Cheney is at the head of the list.
When Lynn Cheney starts defending torture because it has kept her safe then you gotta suspect SOMEONE is going to take the fall for torturing and it sure as hell isn’t going to be Bush.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:13 pmPut Cheney in a box with some ants! Then ask her if she thinks that’s torture!
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:13 pmThe Bush Administration has Claimed that they resorted to “Enhanced Techniques/Torture” in order to gain intelligence about Al Qaeda Plans for Further Attacks on America.
The Ticking Bomb scenario…just like the TV show 24.
Well, it turns out the REAL REASON for Waterboarding the Detainees so many times…was to get them to CONFESS to a link between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein…so they could justify Attacking Iraq! A page right out of the North Korean Playbook. Forced Confessions.
I’ll Bet there is a strong Correlation between ” Not finding any WMD’s”, and the “Gloves coming off.”
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:14 pmI bet’cha Goopers are now desperately praying for the immediate fall of the Pakistani government to the Taliban.
It seriously could happen, and it would be VERY bad.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:14 pmDefending your daddy – yeah! So, who’s next? His Second cousin by marriage?
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:15 pmpaleolib Says:
Let’s waterboard Liz 183 times and see if she thinks it’s torture.
I say do it to her the real way even twice & she’ll change her tune. Do the father 183 times.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:15 pm@aquarius2 Says:
…Cheney is trying to build a case for justifiable torture because he is probably one of the main authors for torture and if this becomes a punishable offense (one can hope) then Cheney is at the head of the list…
____
Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner. Yep.
Pass the popcorn.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:15 pmCHENEY: Everything that was done in this program, as has been laid out and described before, are tactics that our own people go through in SERE training.
TRAINING!!! I have been thru this training, and it was done under strict supervision. This is just pure BS, this lady is not qualified to talk about anything concerning this training. SERE School is nowhere as near as tough as actually being tortured. SERE School is TRAINING!!
There was no training going on at Gitmo, Abu Gharib, etc…… it was torture. PERIOD.
RIP
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:16 pmSGT Stephen R. Sherman
C CO 1-5 IN (STRYKER)
KIA 3 Feb 2005
Mosul, Iraq
The whole point of SERE training is so the the soldiers will know what to expect…WHEN THEY ARE CAPTURED AND TORTURED!
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:16 pmIs it Cheney or CHAINY, soon to be?
What a wonderful thought, Orange Jump Suits, Chained together behind plastic glass awaiting their sentencing;
BUSH, CHENEY, RUMSFELD, RICE…
That’s what I would call justice.
Hang em high!!!
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:16 pmIt just seem odd that so many are willing to defend “torture” for any reason. The “conservatives” are really on the wrong side of this ugly chapter of Bush policies.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:16 pmThe real question we shou8ld be asking all these torture-lovers is this: “If it isn’t torture, why did you use it?”
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:17 pmFIRING SQUAD???
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:17 pmTaguba Says:
Isnt the reason they go to the SERE program is to learn how to combat Torture techniques if they are ever captured ??
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:00 pm
___________
Exactly. Not only that, but it was designed to teach soldiers how not to be coerced into giving false confessions that would then be used against them in Chinese and North Korean kangaroo courts.
I suspect that the reason KhSM was waterboarded 183 times in March 2003 was because he refused to make up a lie about the Saddam/al-Qa’ida connection that could be used as justification for the invasion of Iraq.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:17 pmThese arguments totally amaze me. Aside from the fact that trainees generally have faith that they will not be allowed to be harmed by these “enhanced” techniques (e.g torture), they also have the knowledge that if they don’t want to be waterboarded, there’s the door. This one simple fact, that SERE training is *voluntary* totally invalidates their argument for using it on prisoners. There is absolutely nothing voluntary about the prisoners’ position. Even if the prisoner has told them everything they knew before the use of waterboarding, they will *still* be waterboarded.
These people have absolutely no standing to lecture me on morals after using such an argument.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:18 pmIt doesn’t make these people feel sick, sorry or dirty to DEFEND things like waterboard, for God’s sake?
Aren’t these the same loons that call Obama’s budget “raping” our children and are anti-abortion because they think THAT is inhumane?
Yet waterboarding is A-OK? Sick people.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:18 pmWhat Guido said. I thought the purpose of SERE training was to try to develop a resistance to torture. If the things they’re doing in SERE training isn’t torture, then what’s the point of the training?
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:18 pmExactly Cappy !!
The whole point of SERE training is so the the soldiers will know what to expect…WHEN THEY ARE CAPTURED AND TORTURED!
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:19 pmJohn McCain as a Naval Aviator went through that training and he says it’s torture,
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:20 pmbut I have an idea why don’t you and Dickie give it a go and see what you think. If that doesn’t work for your busy schedule you can back Hannity’s challenge, to be waterboard for charity. Believe me lots of people will pay to see that!
Now some Republican congressman from Texas was on Hardball saying that if President Obama wants bipartisan cooperation he better stop campaigning/politicking and not call for investigations on torture. Like there’s been so much bipartisan cooperation up until now from them.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:20 pmTaguba says:
Isnt the reason they go to the SERE program is to learn how to combat Torture techniques if they are ever captured ??
Only the really dim think this is not torture.
You are absolutely right. It is a fallacious argument to say, “Oh, it is okay to use these methods because our troops are trained in a program which uses these methods.” If you’re out there, Liz, (and I know you’re no where near this site), you’d recognize pretty swiftly if you had a brain that this is false reasoning. In the first place, the SERE program was developed to prepare our troops for the possibility of capture by enemy fighters and torture by enemy interrogators. These methods, taught by the SERE program, were originally used by Chinese Communists on American troops during the Korean War. They Were Condemned by the U.S. at the time, and the SERE was developed to educate and prepare our troops. By using SERE methods to interrogate detainees, we are converting the said methods back into their original function–torture!
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:21 pmYou see, this demonstrates a fundamental principle–if you do not follow a thought through to the end of the reasoning, you will make mistakes in judgment. Of course, in Bush’s and Cheney’s case, the thought process was completely different, it was a political one, not an ethical or logical one.
Oh by the way, Dick, it’s never a good idea to send out your kids to defend you. You just end up looking like a bigger fool, and they are easily discredited by a simple accusation of bias due to relation.
That’s Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:24 pmTo say that the SERE waterboarding training program
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:24 pmis no different from the waterboarding of prisoners is like
like saying a controlled water ride in Disneyland is
no different from an actual raft ride in a wild
river.
I guess we have broken our country into two camps…
….UnAmerican Torturing Fascist Pigs with no ethics or morals who claim to be christian…
…and sensible citizens that have ethics and morals.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:26 pmShe is either as amoral as her father, or she is deluded. There is no other explanation. She cannot/will not face reality.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:27 pmThe only people claiming that the tactics used were not torture are those who performed them and those who defend them.
SmokinJay says:
This one simple fact, that SERE training is *voluntary* totally invalidates their argument for using it on prisoners.
Interesting point. I wonder if Liz would like to volunteer.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:28 pmWhat a cute little narcissist – just like Daddy.
Pretty on the outside, but dark as night on the inside.
He must be so proud…
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:28 pm***
#28 flagged.
mole troll violence.
:\
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:29 pmbasher72 says:
What a cute little narcissist – just like Daddy.
Pretty on the outside, but dark as night on the inside.
You think she’s pretty? Surely you jest.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:29 pmLiz “Bimbo” Cheney apparently doesn’t really understand what SERE training is and what its purpose is. Yes, all troops learn very basic stuff at Level A. However, the kind of in-depth SERE training that some troops receive, such as Level C applies to primarily special ops troops, such as SF, Delta, Seals, etc. As an Army vet myself, it really pisses me off when these not-even REMFs try to pass themselves off as military experts.
Since they keep claiming that what we did to foreign nationals under our control wasn’t torture, then let’s see them walk the walk, so to speak, and good through 5 waterboarding procedures in one day, and treated to the other things that they think is no big deal.
I just can’t stand these people — they have no redeeming social value at all and do not deserve to breathe unpolluted air.
/stepping off my soap box
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:29 pmSo this means that we can use this on anyone we want and we cant get into trouble, right?
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:29 pmThe one element of difference between SERE training and actual, y’know… “enhanced interrogation techniques” is CONTROL.
Trainees have some measure of control over their circumstances — they volunteered for the duty, they understand the purposes of the training and they know that they have the option to drop out if the treatment proves beyond their ability to deal.
Prisoners have no such control, and psychologists will tell you that it’s the lack of control that has the most penetrating psychological impact in stressful or traumatic situations.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:30 pmDoodlebug Shayne Says:
Now some Republican congressman from Texas was on Hardball saying that if President Obama wants bipartisan cooperation…
We’ve already tried doing what they want in the hopes of getting them to cooperate. They didn’t cooperate anyways. So, there’s no reason to do what they want.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:30 pmThose undergoing SERE training have the confidence that they will not be killed in the process – they can signal to the trainers, and the trainers are not sadistic murderers.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:31 pmMs. Cheney might try waterboarding for herself — but then again, she would know that the process would stop before she were to die, unlike the prisoners.
ElBruce Says:
What Guido said. I thought the purpose of SERE training was to try to develop a resistance to torture. If the things they’re doing in SERE training isn’t torture, then what’s the point of the training?
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:18 pm
___________
In a technical sense, they aren’t torture. Just like sleep deprivation isn’t torture when it’s a college student voluntarily staying up three nights in a row to cram for a midterm, or stress positions aren’t torture when a Republican Congressman pays a DC escort to handcuff him to the floor. When these techniques are employed as part of voluntary SERE training, the trainee is in control of the situation.
They become torture when they are used on a detainee with no control over the situation and no possibility of release. According to the KUBARK manual, the purpose of torture is to break the victim down into to a childlike mental state of utter dependance on his captors. Great for eliminating pesky political leaders in Nicaragua, but not so good for obtaining useful information.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:32 pmAhhh. Another Cheney who never served in the military, and is now an “expert” on military training. She is full of crap on what training is given the elete forces of our military. Of course these soldiers are exposed to “torture” during training to better prepare them for battlefields and possible capture by the enemy.
For instance the Marines had a similar escape and evasion course at Bridgeport, California where they do Cold Weather training. Perhaps Liz and daddy Dick both would benefit from a good dunking in the icewater of “The People’s Pool” there, in order to clear up the lack of their expertise in these affairs.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:32 pmThe Bush administration had a Cheney fractal?
Or did Agent Cheney replicate in various government departments in the Democratix?
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:34 pmWhy don’t these people go ahead and volunteer for some waterboarding? Lets see how much they like it.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:34 pmRemember, the whole effort with the memos was to change the definition of torture. That’s what this is all about and they use this SERE training talking point to try manipulate people into believing that the things they are doing are not life-threatening, will not lead to organ failure, and all the other little sickening caveats to use to skirt the torture charge—so they aren’t really torture, even if it has been defined that way (by oppressive internationals) in the past.
It is all gruesomely evil. Real Cheney stuff. He is an accomplished spider.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:34 pmWhy can’t Liz slink off under a rock and enjoy her fathers millions? All the ill-gotten gain must have made Chaney very rich. Liz and Lynn should retire from public life forever.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:35 pmI will believe the waterboarding done to the Guantanamo detainees isn’t torture when people like Liz Cheney manage to convince me that the two procedures were conducted in EXACTLY the same way.
1. Were the Guantanamo detainees told beforehand that the procedure was part of a training exercise?
2. Were the Guantanamo detainees assured they would not die as a result of the procedure?
3. Were the Guantanamo detainees given ample notice before the procedure was done?
4. Were the Guantanamo detainees told the duration of the procedure?
5. Were the Guantanamo detainees given exactly the same amount of water for the same duration as the trainees?
6. Were the Guantanamo detainees told they could halt the procedure by giving a hand signal?
7. Were the Guantanamo detainees and the trainees both in the same physical condition prior to the procedure? Had they been subjected to an equal amount of nourishment, sleep, stress positions, etc.?
If not, there really is no comparison.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:37 pmWe need to keep a list for all the anti-American despots who justify the torture done in our name. Watch Lawrence O’Donnell explain it to a GOP talking head supporting it.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:38 pmLawrence O’Donnel starts kicking butt at almost two minutes. Sorry.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:38 pmCan’t we pack the Cheney family up and move them to the Island of Garbage allegedly floating around the Pacific. Seems more than an appropriate place for them.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:40 pmHowever, the IG investigation found that the waterboarding technique used on the CIA’s detainees was significantly different from that used in the SERE program: most notably, the Agency’s interrogators used much larger volumes of water.
So does this mean everybody is okay with waterboarding if it is followed under the same guidelines as SERE training? Most notably the same volumes of water?
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:42 pmPoor Liz. It must be torture going through life with that last name. She should take her husbands name. My ex’s last names have always come in handy for me! Thank god she is a former everything.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:45 pmShe is a pathological liar….just like her father….Now just how does Ms. Cheney know all this stuff…..has she had SERE training…? We know her father hasn’t, with his five deferments and all…..I don’t think these documents even exist~ VP Cheney has done this sort of thing in the past…beating on his chest so-to-speak…and no matter how many times the facts are reported about any particular topic, that may directly project negatively on Mr. Cheney he always seems to have some wild story to back up his point of view…the tale he told about 9/11 hijacker Mohammed Atta meeting with Iraqi agents in Prague comes to mind right now. he’s pushed this story for months, even after it was proven that this meeting never occurred. I don’t know if Cheney does this because he is just purposely creating a diversion, to get the attention off of himself, while he is out there demanding attention on every televison platform he can find, at the same time….or he can’t help himself with his pathological lying?
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:48 pmWhy is anyone asking this porn author anything that doesn’t involve hot gal on gal??
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:50 pmMarie Says:
Ms. Cheney might try waterboarding for herself — but then again, she would know that the process would stop before she were to die, unlike the prisoners.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:31 pm
____________
Which also begs the question of why they felt the need to do it 200 times on KhSM. I think by the 30th or 40th time he would’ve figured out that he wasn’t actually going to be allowed to die.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:51 pmOoops, I saw Liz, mistook for Mommy…
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:51 pmWhat kind of father sends his daughter (or at least needs his daughter) to defend his “honor” related to endorsing torturing other human beings? These people are sick and beyond hope.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:51 pmMore proof that the Republicans think we’re all idiots.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:54 pmLiz Cheney has a son and he will follow his GrandFather in using the 5 deferment policy. But Liz might rethink her support of torture if in the future a terrorist group kidnaps her son and uses the Bush/Cheney Torture Policy on him. Funny how Republicans do say we can torture others but not Americans. Sounds alot like our pass History as slaves were tortured but others weren’t all this was done as people said they to were Christians. History has a way of dealing with such problems. It will be interesting to see how those would support torturing innocent men/woman/children feel when it’s done to Americans citizens.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:56 pmI’ve read about SERE training, and from what I understand it doesn’t involve solitary confinement for years in CIA black sites, starvation, sleep deprivation, being hung from a hook all day, or pretty much anything in those torture memos.
Waterboarding is voluntary for trainees, and they don’t have it done to them 183 times.
April 23rd, 2009 at 6:02 pmI underwent some similar training (the seven foot coffin stuffing, but had a panic button (which I pushed after about two hours).
April 23rd, 2009 at 6:03 pmIt is, repeat is, terrifying torture, even when you know it’s your own who have you penned up.
So when these shills call it ‘no big deal’, I’d suggest they STFU until they’ve undergone it.
And I’d be happy to acccomodate any member of the Cheney family, I’d build the damned coffin myself.
And he ran from somethin’ he’d thought he’d seen as he heard the devil callin’ out his name.
April 23rd, 2009 at 6:03 pmI think we should use every one of those techniques on Liz Cheney and see if she still thinks that they are not torture. After that we should do it to daddy Dick and we should limit it to once each until they admit it is torture.
As for SERE training I have heard people who went through it describe it as torture.
April 23rd, 2009 at 6:07 pmTaguba Says:
Isnt the reason they go to the SERE program is to learn how to combat Torture techniques if they are ever captured ??
Yep.
April 23rd, 2009 at 6:09 pmIs being delusional genetic?
April 23rd, 2009 at 6:18 pmMikala Says:
As for SERE training I have heard people who went through it describe it as torture.
Of course it’s torture. It’s not like they’re training to resist gentle back rubs.
April 23rd, 2009 at 6:49 pmIn what capacity is this woman on the air? is she an expert in something that I don’t know about? Or is she on only because she is Dick Cheney’s daughter? If that is the case, then why is she on the air being interviewed?
April 23rd, 2009 at 6:53 pmLibertyLover Says:
Or is she on only because she is Dick Cheney’s daughter?
There’s also the freak show aspect of watching a lesbian defend someone who would throw everybody like her into death camps if he had the chance.
April 23rd, 2009 at 6:59 pmCan one describe 2 terms of Bush and Cheney as an enhanced torture technique by Republicans of the American people?!!
April 23rd, 2009 at 7:14 pmElBruce, Liz isn’t the lesbian. That’s Mary. This one workes as an undersecretary in daddy’s State Department. She’s been a bigwig in the Republican party for a long time.
April 23rd, 2009 at 7:22 pmI think the entire Constitution should be replaced by a series of memos. I can’t believe we are even having this conversation!
April 23rd, 2009 at 7:32 pmNorah O’Donnell was lame in that interview. She let Dick Cheney Jr. run all over her.
April 23rd, 2009 at 7:43 pmWhere there are fascists, there will always be fascist sympathizers.
I was watching Republican strategist Todd Harris defending the Bush regime a little bit a go on Hardball, when Matthews showed Harris’s appearance with his mom on The Today Show.
The reason he was on there with her is because he was a victim of identity theft and his mother was erroneously wrapped up in it by the investigating authorities.
Perhaps if the weight of identity theft fell on the thief that stole the identity and the business that accepted fraudlent payment instead of the innocent bystander whose information likely fell in the thief’s hands because of corporations sharing our private information wrecklessly, he would not have been out about 70K.
The party he advocates for makes sure that big corporations have the advantage over the citizen, and the citizen is simply at their mercy.
April 23rd, 2009 at 7:52 pmAs long as we are changing the definitions of common words, how about we rename modern American Conservatism as a “evil death-cult” or “mental illness”?
April 23rd, 2009 at 7:56 pmThe GOP it sending out their minions to “relate” to the groups they have alienated:
Meghan – Speak to those 20-somethings and get them to “think” we’re “progressive”.
Steele – Crap! We need those black votes!
Schmidt – Say something about lesbians to get those Gay votes.
Liz Cheney – Send Liz out because she’s a woman and women can “relate” to her.
The rest of you, well, just look busy and make some crap up for Faux Noise.
What a joke these Republican’ts are. Hello! America got a little wiser over the last 4-years.
April 23rd, 2009 at 7:59 pm“Everything that was done in this program, as has been laid out and described before, are tactics that our own people go through in SERE training…We did not torture our own people. These techniques are not torture.”
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BULLS**T. As in pure, 100%, Grade-A bovine excrement.
There is a distinct difference between people who freely and voluntarily consent to subject themselves to extreme levels of physical and/or emotional stress during special training of the sort Ms. Cheney mentions, and people who are forcibly subjected to similar levels of stress without their consent and against their will in an attempt to extract information (if indeed the person has any to offer). Now, I know this much — while the behavior of most neoconservatives shows all too clearly that they’re some of the most egocentric and narrow-minded people you’ll ever have the misfortune to meet, this does not necessarily mean that they’re stupid. Deep down, they know just as well as anyone else does that there’s a vast difference between voluntarily subjecting oneself to stress and being subjected to it by force against one’s will — but they choose to deliberately diffuse the difference between the two in order to justify their own brutality to themselves as well as to the rest of the world. If their typical behavior is anything to go on, no matter what they might say, most neoconservatives value power far above all else in life — and because they’re so terrified of not having power, especially in a chaotic and unpredictable world such as this one so often is, that they’re willing to say and do virtually whatever they feel they need to in order to convince themselves that they’re safe. They’re quite willing to let other human beings, even potentially innocent human beings, be brutalized in order to preserve their illusion of increased control and safety — but they refuse to call it torture because they’re far more interested in being safe, being in control, and being in power than they are in being ethical.
April 23rd, 2009 at 8:01 pmCheney’s daughter sounds like Meadow Soprano in the last season. Let’s support my dad’s criminal activities. Parroting her dad on MSNBC in all her bovine glory!
April 23rd, 2009 at 8:16 pmLet’s make this real simple. The “enhanced interrogation program” was based on the SERE program. The SERE program was developed to prepare US soldiers to survive torture in the unfortunate event said US soldiers were ever captured and TORTURED. The interrogation tactics “taught” in SERE and “used” on US troops are, then, BY DEFINITION, torture. End of story. Nuance and word play be damned.
April 23rd, 2009 at 8:28 pmpo Says:
Let’s make this real simple. The “enhanced interrogation program” was based on the SERE program. The SERE program was developed to prepare US soldiers to survive torture in the unfortunate event said US soldiers were ever captured and TORTURED. The interrogation tactics “taught” in SERE and “used” on US troops are, then, BY DEFINITION, torture. End of story. Nuance and word play be damned.
In a nutshell, if you will.
I thought this country was supposed to be the best in the world. As in BETTER than the others. Especially the ones who resort to torture.
April 23rd, 2009 at 8:41 pmWell, as it turns out we are not the best in the world and we never were. Perhaps when one thinks they are the best and above fault, that leads to all kinds of sickening consequences. I think these thugs thought they would never get caught – face it, they’ve been running scared since the election.
I want a real investigation, I want to hear what those ordered to torture have to say, and I want to know all those who conspired together and then gave the orders. And I want everyone involved brought to justice.
April 23rd, 2009 at 8:51 pmOT – I hope I don’t jinx anything – but this thread has been free of troll torture apologists. Sssshhhh….
April 23rd, 2009 at 8:52 pmHow does she now what was going on in the preparation of the report. How does she know what was deleted or amended by the White House. Doesn’t that strike anyone else as odd? I mean what does she do for a living?
Is she in the CIA, NSA or just in the branch of Cheny?
April 23rd, 2009 at 9:08 pmOne word:
DILAWAR.
April 23rd, 2009 at 9:11 pmshe is just trying to change the topic and shift the actual blame off the a hole who is responsible for for thjis whole mess….. her damn father!!!! useing politics in the justice department cheney!iraq war cheney!torture cheney!the listr goes on and on and on…….cheny!! so why not spin a yaren for dear old dad!he is probably going to be a co-definded very soon stay tunned
April 23rd, 2009 at 9:43 pmBy all means, stupid troll. Feel free to move to whatever Reichwing paradise you wish. Patriots don’t need pro-torture pussies like you to fix the damage.
April 23rd, 2009 at 10:22 pmLiz cheney defending dear old dad. Dick himself is on fox quite a bit lately defending the torture that he authorized.
April 23rd, 2009 at 10:30 pmThis is probably a joke to the dickhead. I can picture him sitting in fox studios thinking, man if people even knew half the sht i did while i was running the country then this torture crap wouldnt even be an issue. I hope dicks heart holds out long enough so one day Liz gets to talk to dad on a slimey phone with a piece of plexyglass seperating them.
I love the straw man argument…”It worked, we saved American lives”….
This statement is a statement of cowardice.
If we torture, we give up who we are as Americans..Americans have died for our values over the past two hundred years….Graveyards around the world contain Americans who fought and died….for our way of life…That’s the price of freedom….Welcome to the party guys….Got to stand for something..right, might as well be as an American….
Yep, 3000 people died in New York…and we should have gone after Bin Laden and the Saudis and the afghanis’.. the people who attacked us….and crushed them…but NO!
we made a turn into Iraq because as Bush stated “Sadam threathened my daddy”, and,or, Chenny’s oil wetdream..
Obama is going into Afghanistan and will press Pakistan if need be…
Just as America should…
To say we tortured because we “were saving you”…..is a lie and cowardice…and you don’t understand what being an American in this world is all about…
Stand for someting….or is the cost to dear to you to be an American with values?
Fox is constantly talking..”If we’re hit again it’s because of those liberals not torturing people…O’bamas making us weak”….
April 23rd, 2009 at 10:35 pmAre they saying they don’t trust our allies, our intelligence agencies, our military, our police, our citizenery to guard against another attack….?
So lets torture and allow it to become the norm in our culture?
WTF?
Stop living in fear folks…..price of freedom ain’t cheap…and we don’t need
Cheney…Draft Dodger
Bush Jr,..AWOL most of the time
and their lawyers to torture in our names…is wrong…and you know it.
Yes, manly men torture people in captivity.
Let’s not forget that the people we tortured were primarily hostages, sold for a bounty, who had nothing to do with terrorism. Somehow that is getting lost in the debate about whether or not waterboarding is torture. Most of these people should not have been in any of our prisons.
April 23rd, 2009 at 10:35 pmIf you have heard her before, she is truly her fathers daughter. She is nasty, she has literally his dirty mouth. And she is never stopped by having to lie.
There was no other way she could have turned out. Look at her parenting. Or lack of it. Daddy Darth Vader.
April 23rd, 2009 at 10:36 pmIsn’t part of torture the intent? If not, does that mean that Christopher Hitchens and the Playboy reporter were tortured even though they volunteered?
Of course not. What absurd comments.
April 23rd, 2009 at 10:47 pmExactly: those undergoing SERE training presumably do not believe they’ve been captured by the enemy & they don’t fear for their lives; huge distinction.
April 23rd, 2009 at 10:50 pmWhenever one of these freaks defends torture I’m reminded of Gen. Patton’s thoughts on the treatment of prisoners.
“There’s no reason to rough ‘em up. Hell! If you give ‘em a hot meal? They’ll give you Hitler’s address. If you give ‘em a cold beer? They’ll introduce you to their sister.”
George S. Patton. 1944
April 23rd, 2009 at 10:53 pmI kind of got that previous comment backwards. I meant to ask “Does it also mean that since CH and the Playboy reporter willingly experienced it, waterboarding is not torture?”
April 23rd, 2009 at 10:54 pmIt’s the psychological effect that is important. Torture is not about the physical response. It is an attempt to use physical responses to affect the psychology. Change the intent, and you change the psychological effect of the activity.
Here is the link to watch Lawrence O’Donnell smack down Liz Cheney.
April 23rd, 2009 at 11:04 pmDid anyone ask why we put our soldiers through this “training”? Is it possibly because this might give them a sense of the torture they might experience if they are captured? Is it not to train them how to cope with torture?
April 23rd, 2009 at 11:16 pmYeah right. Just like if we had training for survival in the event of a Nuke attack, that makes dropping the bomb okay.
April 23rd, 2009 at 11:20 pmpdennany Says:
Perhaps my point wasn’t clear. After all that was my second attempt and apparently I failed.
My point was not that it is ok to torture because we train for it. My point is that we train our soldiers with a similar technique because that is torture they may experience. It is torture someone else may use on them. The very admission that we train our soldiers to try and cope with it admits that we recognize others might use this technique as torture to get information from our soldiers. I.e. our own military considers waterboarding to be torture.
April 23rd, 2009 at 11:42 pmpdennany Says:
Perhaps my point wasn’t clear. After all that was my second attempt and apparently I failed.
My point was not that it is ok to torture because we train for it. My point is that we train our soldiers with a similar technique because that is torture they may experience. It is torture someone else may use on them. The very admission that we train our soldiers to try and cope with it admits that we recognize others might use this technique as torture to get information from our soldiers. I.e. our own military considers waterboarding to be torture.
April 23rd, 2009 at 11:43 pmOh. And now I double post. I give up.
April 23rd, 2009 at 11:44 pmWaterboard Liz Chenney and then ask her if she liked the “enhenced interrogation technique’!
April 24th, 2009 at 12:05 amThis b!tch makes me sick.
Why does Cheney always need women to defend him?
April 24th, 2009 at 12:36 amGreat, now we know what Liz Cheney thinks about torture. Let’s ask Chelsey Clinton what “is” is.
April 24th, 2009 at 12:40 amThat’s real nice, progressivenotdemocrat — equate the innocent bystander, Chelsea Clinton, with this bloodthirsty b!tch.
April 24th, 2009 at 12:47 amIf I have to explain it. . . . . What she thinks about anything isn’t relevant. Who cares? She’s a daughter! I mean, what does Cheney’s maid think? Or his barber?
April 24th, 2009 at 12:50 amThe torture defenders are out of touch and they are those who have a sadistic bent to their personalities; they want revenge and retributionn – a sorry, evil lot. Not my country, I say — I was mistaken.
April 24th, 2009 at 12:50 amprogressivenotdemocrat Says:
If I have to explain it. . . . . What she thinks about anything isn’t relevant. Who cares? She’s a daughter! I mean, what does Cheney’s maid think? Or his barber?
April 24th, 2009 at 12:50 am
Liz Cheney was a bigwig in the State Department, so anything she says carries a certain amount of weight with the sheeple. That’s why it matters what she says.
Geez, if I have to explain it…
April 24th, 2009 at 12:56 amZooey Says:
Liz Cheney was a bigwig in the State Department…
Actually, she wouldn’t have been in a position for the Vice President to be discussing “enhanced interrogation procedures” with her in any professional capacity; she wouldn’t have the clearance for that. Which means the only credentials she’s bringing to this discussion is being Dick’s daughter. Which amounts to, none. So I think the Chelsea comparison is apt.
April 24th, 2009 at 1:06 amElBruce,
My point is that the low information people out there will see that she had that position in the State Department, and that will make them think her insane ravings have some merit. None of us is buying it, but we’re pretty well informed.
It really doesn’t matter all that much. I’m not going to get into a flap about it.
April 24th, 2009 at 1:09 amLiz,
We do not prosecute crimes before they happen…!
It is torture and it is wrong. If it was OK and legal and right. Why did Cheney and the entire Bush Adm stand by and actually encourage those torturers from ABu Graib like Lindi England to be prosecuted and sentenced for crimes? Crimes they were encouraged and enable and instructed to perform.
It wasn’t just bad Apples. But if Liz Cheney keeps this up, from her Father to her it would seem as bad apples seeds.
April 24th, 2009 at 4:19 amWell of course we don’t torture – we use “enhanced interrogation techniques.” We don’t have cases of police “brutality” simply rogue cops. Bernie Madoff didn’t run a ponzi scheme, he’s simply mathematically & ethically impaired.
April 24th, 2009 at 8:12 amCheney’s argument is fundamentally flawed. Servicemen (and women) who go through SERE training expect that they will not be harmed by the techniques used. They know that the training, which could be harmful if fully implemented, is only a facsimile of real torture. To claim that these techniques are used on US troops and therefore OK to use on anyone in detention is sophistry. Case in point is the successful 1995 lawsuit by trainees who were actually sexually assaulted during sexual assault resistance training. The trainees reasonably expected that there was a line between simulated and real sexual assault that could not be crossed. The courts determined that line was crossed and the trainees were injured. Training is not “real world”.
April 24th, 2009 at 8:38 amMatt, great post.
Someone should tell Time that their article which you cited contains a serious error. They said this: “No session was to exceed 40 seconds.” Wrong. No session was to exceed two hours. The 40 second limit pertained to one particular application of water. And there could be many, many applications of water in one two-hour session.
The correct original text (to verify what I just said) can be found in Marcy’s post which you cited.
April 24th, 2009 at 8:44 amDick’s wife Cunt should really stay out of Dick’s business.
April 24th, 2009 at 8:45 am…Scuz me, Dick’s daughter Cunt Cheney…
April 24th, 2009 at 8:47 amI dont know much of Cheaneys daughter but ido know that she isnt htinkig right.Her dad tells her waht to say ad her women sex friends tell her”US DAD,S NAME TO GET AHEAD’ She has no dea what she is talking about.Shei s lie Hannity big nouth and no action let here get water boarded by proper men who did thsi and see ehat she says.Sme as Hannity if he goes to a waterboarding becauuse of his bragging let the water boarding be dort on lall tv camera no tricks nad have pro do the boarding not an other gimic of faux news
April 24th, 2009 at 9:08 amIf waterboarding is not torture, why bother subjecting military people to it?
We are told by the fascist sympathizers that waterboarding is not painful and it leaves no long term effects.
For those who have found out the hard way that they cannot metabolize the surgical paralytic agent succinyl choline, they figured out what it is like to be perfectly conscious but completely unable to move a muscle, including their diaphragms to breathe. This is not “painful” but I understand, at a minimum, it is at least mildly uncomfortable. These people tend to remember particular days out of their life, and those days in which they cannot breathe usually rank high in their memories.
I am not trying to give the next tyrannical Republican administration ideas. I am trying to draw an analogy.
Stubbing your toe is painful. Being drowned over and over, to the tune of up to 6 times a day may not create the same kind of pain stubbing your toe does, but I am guessing most people on this blog could not tell what year they stubbed their toe, but could tell me which year in which they nearly drowned.
April 24th, 2009 at 9:11 amDoes anyone really give a damn what Liz Cheney thinks?
April 24th, 2009 at 9:15 amEvery now and then I think about someone kidnapping these torture defenders and subjecting them to a weekend of waterboarding, and then releasing them along with videos of their reactions to it.
It would be totally evil, yet so sweet.
April 24th, 2009 at 9:47 amIf only the only people who were allowed to discuss waterboarding on tv were ones who had experienced it firsthand, it would clarify things a lot. Maybe even do that with other news as well. Reporters required to live in Gaza for a couple of weeks before they pontificate about it.
April 24th, 2009 at 9:51 ammacrumpton Says:
If only the only people who were allowed to discuss waterboarding on tv were ones who had experienced it firsthand, it would clarify things a lot.
I’d just like to see one, for starters. Why isn’t anybody booking some ex-detainees on any “news talk” shows?
April 24th, 2009 at 12:25 pm“Liz Cheney Claims Waterboading Isn’t Torture Because Similar Tactics Were Used In SERE Training”
Curiously enough, that training trains against… torture… by torturing…
April 24th, 2009 at 12:25 pmI find it incredibly sad that anyone would actually speak on the subject of torture, without knowing what it is and the difference between SERE training and treatment received by the “suspected terrorist”.
A “support daddy defense” may work when you are a child, but an educated individual should do research on a topic before they start offering an opinion. She obviously did not.
Over and above the rhetoric, there is the UN Resolution: Convention Against Torture of 1984 which was ratified by Ronald Reagan as well as the US 1986 Human Rights Act, which were conveniently turned aside and or ignored by the writers of the “torture memos” as well as Ms. Cheney.
April 24th, 2009 at 12:27 pmLiz Cheney has the stockholm syndrome.
April 24th, 2009 at 3:45 pmbrothabill Says:
Anyone who writes a post like yours is a punk and a coward. The IRA isnt the paragon of virtue we should aspire to emulate you insufferable moron. Look we already know you are a stupid brainwashed piece of putrid shite. Your post was worthless and you are ignorant. Until you have something to say that adults would find interesting go to your corner and STFU
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