GOP lawmaker: Although waterboarding is ‘more torture than not,’ we still shouldn’t have investigations.
GOP lawmaker: Although waterboarding is ‘more torture than not,’ we still shouldn’t have investigations.
During an interview with WGN radio this morning, Rep. Don Manzullo (R-IL) veered slightly to the left of his GOP colleagues on the issue of whether waterboarding is torture and an effective tool of interrogation. After host John Williams recounted the story of Abu Zubaydah (and how all the valuable information he gave occurred before waterboarding took place), Manzullo replied, “Apparently waterboarding doesn’t work.” Williams then established that Manzullo believes that torture is illegal and asked, “Do you think waterboarding is torture?” “I would say its more torture than not,” Manzullo said. Despite his dance with reality, Manzullo firmly came back into the GOP camp, later arguing that no prosecutions should take place because it would be too much of a hassle:
WILLIAMS: Then how do you not prosecute if we think people were doing it?
MANZULLO: Because then you are going to have to go back and you’re going to have to go through every single interrogation and every single memo and the whole purpose of this is to relive again the fact that somebody made the decision to allow this.
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Either we do it or the international community will do it for us.
Take your pick.
April 28th, 2009 at 6:42 pmMore inhuman than inhuman…
April 28th, 2009 at 6:42 pmI used to live in Illinois and listen to Manzullo regularly. If he told me the sun would come up tomorrow morning, I wouldn’t bet on it. This GOP “whistling in the cemetary” operation is becoming a full scale chorale.
April 28th, 2009 at 6:43 pmWAYNEBRO Says:
Either we do it or the international community will do it for us.
Take your pick.
I think at this point, even some supposedly staunch republicans want the international community to do our dirty work, and get us back to a more rational international footing, but they’d be committing political suicide if they came out and said it.
April 28th, 2009 at 6:47 pmAnd if they have to do the job, we won’t return to a more friendly relationship with most countries. We truly will be like a banana republic to most of the civilized world.
April 28th, 2009 at 6:50 pmWhat a mook.
April 28th, 2009 at 6:53 pmI just don’t understand these people. This is not my father’s Republican party.
I grew up knocking heads with my dad over politics; we had some epic battles. But I am certain Dad is spinning in his urn right now.
April 28th, 2009 at 6:54 pmManzullo went on to say that no laws in the United States should be prosecuted because enforcing laws is such a hassle. “We should just get rid of police departments, courts, and prisons,” Manzullo said, “You are going to have to look at every homicide, robbery, assault, ect., and the whole purpose of this is to relive again the fact that some killers, robbers, and other violent people made the decision to commit these crimes.”
April 28th, 2009 at 6:54 pm…..we still shouldn’t have investigations.
Don’t you just love this mind set… as if We the People – the people that pay a salary to Congress to work in OUR behalf should be kept from the truth?
April 28th, 2009 at 6:58 pmMANZULLO: Because then you are going to have to go back and you’re going to have to go through every single interrogation and every single memo and the whole purpose of this is to relive again the fact that somebody made the decision to allow this. Yes, Manzullo. It’s called “accountability.” It’s called “taking responsibility for your actions.” I thought Republicans were all about those ideas.
These people are a complete joke.
April 28th, 2009 at 7:00 pmWilliams then established that Manzullo believes that murder is illegal and asked, “Do you think murder victims are dead?” “I would say they are more dead than not,” Manzullo said.
April 28th, 2009 at 7:01 pmIn other words OK Bush tortured and broke the law but the GOP needs to be ABOVE the law so we can serve power
April 28th, 2009 at 7:02 pmFamily members of murder victims have to relive their loved one’s murder all the time, but they do it because that is how you administer justice. The only reason that I can think of for why Republicans do not want to investigate this is because they know (or strongly suspect) that even worse things will come out if they do. Too bad.
We owe it to the world to demonstrate that we are a nation of laws, and the only way we can do that in this situation is to prosecute those responsible for allowing it to happen.
People say they don’t like the idea that a former president might end up in jail. I say it’s the best way to prove to the rest of the world that in America, no one is above the law.
April 28th, 2009 at 7:06 pmThat’s like saying, “Yeah, sure, I killed the woman and then robbed her family, but don’t arrest me for me for my crimes because it’s in the past now and the only people who care are the family members. See?”.
Dumba**.
April 28th, 2009 at 7:16 pmJustice is a drag, huh? Very strange thing for a lawmaker to say.
April 28th, 2009 at 7:18 pmManzullo has no spine, or morals, or ballz. Typical RePugniScum.
April 28th, 2009 at 7:18 pmManzullo’s admitting that waterboarding is torture is good but there can not be any half-stepping on prosecuting breaking the law. The Bush Crime Family must be prosecuted for breaking the law and allowing torture then lying about it. Not prosecuting will prevent closure on this issue – especially for the victims.
April 28th, 2009 at 7:21 pmGreat…another republican staying the course on the party line…
April 28th, 2009 at 7:22 pmWhy is this news?
Why do we have criminal statutes on the books?
Why do we bother to investigate crimes?
Why do we bother to prosecute, try, convict and incarcerate anybody?
Republicans used to call themselves the party of “law and order.” I don’t think they can lay claim to that anymore.
April 28th, 2009 at 7:24 pmnormalasf Says:
“I just don’t understand these people. This is not my father’s Republican party.”
No it’s not.
http://edschultz.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=35067
April 28th, 2009 at 7:27 pmPrecisely. And what don’t you like about prosecuting criminals?
April 28th, 2009 at 7:28 pm“I would say its more torture than not,” Manzullo said.
Your Republican party: “morality is sort of a sliding scale to us.”
How about this – “Rape is more crime than not. Theft is only partially a crime, unless it’s embezzlement, in which case it barely qualifies. Murder is mostly a crime, but a little bit not.”
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barfly Says:
I think at this point, even some supposedly staunch republicans want the international community to do our dirty work, and get us back to a more rational international footing, but they’d be committing political suicide if they came out and said it.
Aka, they want to hand over our sovereignty to an international body. Isn’t that the sort of thing that makes their voters grab their guns and head for the bunkers?
As Saddam learned, if a government refuses to adhere to a baseline measure of responsible conduct, somebody else may step in and do it for him. The degree to which we keep our sovereignty is correlated to the degree which we deserve to. Which means taking care of our own business at home.
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Wayne Ant Schneider Says:
People say they don’t like the idea that a former president might end up in jail. I say it’s the best way to prove to the rest of the world that in America, no one is above the law.
Absolutely.
This is exactly what people were complaining about when Ford pardoned Nixon; that it would set the precedent that Presidents should never to jail even if they deserve to, and such a precedent would be anathema to democracy itself. And here we are, with everybody going on the underlying belief that Presidents should never go to jail even if they deserve to.
April 28th, 2009 at 7:31 pmWe should have investigations and prosecutions just to see how many of these rats can swim once they jump off the ship!
April 28th, 2009 at 7:32 pmIt would seem as though following the law is more of a hassle than putting up with torture and mass murder .However as of today a Federal appeals court has ruled that the lawsuit on extraordinary rendition can proceed despite the present administrations protests .
April 28th, 2009 at 7:37 pmCourt rebuffs feds, reinstates torture suit
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/04/28/BAC417AH7A.DTL&tsp=1
Yeah, right. The same way that we should not probe
into *ANY* murder case because we then have to
“relive again the fact that somebody made the decision”
to commit the murder!
What a moron! Why don’t they take a few days’ rest
April 28th, 2009 at 7:41 pmand come back? Too much sh*t coming out of the
Regressives’ mouths these days! Much more than what’s
“normal” – for them!
The Spanish seem to have more interest in our following our own laws than our elected representatives .There will be trials on this issue whether or not they are in the US remains to be seen !
April 28th, 2009 at 7:43 pmI actually heard someone on the radio yesterday say that he couldn’t understand why it’s important to admit to the world that we tortured prisoners. He dared anyone to call his show and justify publicizing our actions to the world.
What kind of people are these? First they deny that we tortured anyone. Then they said that it was just a few rogue soldiers. Then they said it was more like fraternity hazing. Then they say it’s OK as long as we got useful information.
If I actually believed in hell, I’d bet they’ve just earned a special place there.
April 28th, 2009 at 7:49 pmDamn it…Even if it was universally decided that waterboarding isn’t torture it is “cruel and unusual punishment” whether punishment was the purpose or not. Still in violation of the Geneva Conventions.
This is a personal opinion but it would take much to change my view.
April 28th, 2009 at 7:52 pm27. freeman
Couldn’t agree more. It is a sorry state of affairs when the international community sees our actions as reprehensible.
I couldn’t agree more with the immoral position our lack of action places us in.
But even if I think in a sinister manner – if Country X is antagonistic to the USA and if we don’t clean our own house, then Country X can use the USA’s torture to embarass us – at their convenience.
Also, I’ve gotta join those who love the “more torture than not” statement. Who in the world came up with that wordsmithing ?
April 28th, 2009 at 7:53 pmMapleStreet
April 28th, 2009 at 7:56 pmA lawyer ?
MANZULLO: Because then you are going to have to go back and you’re going to have to go through every single interrogation and every single memo and the whole purpose of this is to relive again the fact that somebody made the decision to allow this.
I had no idea we had a Ministry of Public Whining, but apparently there are a surfeit of appointees.
…most of which appear to be conservatives…
April 28th, 2009 at 8:01 pmToo bad Sh|t-stain, special prosecutor’s on the way.
April 28th, 2009 at 8:01 pmNo one is above the law ?
April 28th, 2009 at 8:04 pmKill a million people through an illegal war over oil sold on lies !
Kidnap and torture people held without charges , even killing some occasionally .
Wiretapping the phones of 10’s of millions of American citizens !
Circumvent the separation of powers through the use of illegal signing statements !
Enter the homes of Americans clandestinely or through the use of national security letters like a blanket warrant !
No one is above the law ?
HELLO !!!!!!!
MANZULLO: Because then you are going to have to go back and you’re going to have to go through every single interrogation and every single memo and the whole purpose of this is to relive again the fact that somebody made the decision to allow this.
So, is better the Omertà, the guilty silence?
April 28th, 2009 at 8:12 pmStrike down Posse Comitatus and deploy Armed forces on the streets of America .
April 28th, 2009 at 8:19 pmAssemble the worlds largest data base on American citizens ?
Open my mail without a warrant .
Rob the retirement savings of millions of elderly people world wide while shoring up the bonuses of Ceo’s with billions of borrowed dollars ?
Putting the very individuals most involved in the theft in charge of solving the crisis ?
AND NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW ?
Someone has taken a scapel to the private parts of democracy and we should focus on the future ?
April 28th, 2009 at 8:20 pmGOOD LUCK WITH THAT !
Waterboarding is against the law. Everything else is like arguing about how many angels fit on a pin.
I wish the MSM would stop considering all the crazy justifications as news. Then again, they are republicans saying foolish, self incriminating things, so it really is news. It’s how the MSM couch it that is basically corrupt and needs to change.
April 28th, 2009 at 8:24 pmSo what happens if we finally get this crap into the court system… and it ends up in the 9th Circuit? When that folder slaps down on Bybee’s desk, he’s going to grin the grin of an extremely satisfied jurist.
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MANZULLO: Because then you are going to have to go back and you’re going to have to go through every single interrogation and every single memo and the whole purpose of this is to relive again the fact that somebody made the decision to allow this.
Ever visit a Holocaust museum, Don? You should check it out some time. Publicly going over all the details and reliving it is a surprisingly effective method of preventing the bastards from doing it again.
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STL Cynic Says:
I actually heard someone on the radio yesterday…
Don’t listen to the radio, for your own sake. Have you seen the EKG scans of dittoheads? Their brains actually lose an average of 30% water mass.
.
MapleStreet Says:
But even if I think in a sinister manner – if Country X is antagonistic to the USA and if we don’t clean our own house, then Country X can use the USA’s torture to embarass us – at their convenience.
I think of it this way – if we don’t fix this, we can never again have a chance at calling ourselves “leader of the free world,” nukes or not. We move to the back of the ex-empire bus, along with England, France and Spain. For one, I’d like to see us try to do some actual good before we pass the big-boy torch on to fcuking China.
April 28th, 2009 at 8:39 pmElBruce…….too funny!!
April 28th, 2009 at 8:43 pmGOP lawmaker: Although waterboarding is ‘more torture than not,’ we still shouldn’t have investigations.
During an interview with WGN radio this morning, Rep. Don Manzullo
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The GOP is acting spooky about the torture issue. I am wondering if this is the tip of a proverbial iceberg.
April 28th, 2009 at 8:48 pmThe Republicans justified 5 years investigating Clinton, I see no problem investigating Bush.
Before redistricting, Manzullo was my Representitive in Congress. I’m not a bit surprised by this. He has always been a shameless, corrupt, corporate whore. This sad episode shows that he is a moral degenerate in every way.
April 28th, 2009 at 9:10 pmHeigh-ho, here we go again with the Republican hypocrisy — surprise, surprise. All the hassle of investigation didn’t seem to bother the Republicans any when it was a Democratic president — and a sitting president at that — who was under suspicion of being Up To No Good.
Aren’t Republicans the ones who are always pontificating about the importance of taking personal responsibility and facing the consequences of your own actions? If so, why aren’t we seeing any accountability from them?
Oh, dear! Silly me…how could I have forgotten again, and so soon?? They mean that taking personal responsibility is important for other people…
April 28th, 2009 at 9:11 pmflight Says:
The GOP is acting spooky about the torture issue. I am wondering if this is the tip of a proverbial iceberg.
They told us they had laid eyes on the evidence of Iraq having WMD’s and ties to Al-Qaeda. It turns out no such evidence existed. Then they told us the CIA gave them “bad intelligence.” Then Dubya put a Presidential Medal of Freedom around George Tenet’s neck.
They told us they didn’t detain anybody off the record. It turns out there were people detained in unknown CIA “black sites” all over the world. Then they told us there were only a handful of people detained in CIA black sites. Some Gitmo detainees have testified that they’ve seen dozens of others on U.S. battleships in transport, none of whom match who’s currently known to be detained.
They told us everybody detained in Gitmo were terrorists. Then they had to release most of them. Then they told us some of those released had “returned to the battlefield.” It turns out those had merely spoken on the record to the press about their experience. Then they told us the people still in Gitmo were “the worst of the worst…”
They told us they don’t torture anybody. It turns out we tortured some people. They told us that it was just a few “bad apples” acting independently. It turns out the torture was systematically specified by the OLC and ordered from the White House.
To this date, no evidence of any of their claims has been produced.
From what I can tell, all the ice is icebergs.
April 28th, 2009 at 9:12 pmFunny, no criminal Republican trolls showed up here to defend this cretin.
April 28th, 2009 at 9:13 pmElBruce Says:
From what I can tell, all the ice is icebergs.
Brilliantly put, sir. I believe that is the best and most accurate way to state it. And that is the true reason the Republicans do not want investigations. And, yes, some Democrats, too, but they’re just as negligent in their Constitutional duties.
April 28th, 2009 at 9:24 pmElBruce, My point is “what is still lurking”, why are they so spooked. I am trying to understand how their mind set works. If the torture produced such significant results, why is the right screaming bloody murder. I just think there is something else.
April 28th, 2009 at 9:37 pmRight, Don. And you can be a little bit pregnant too.
April 28th, 2009 at 9:42 pmIs Manzullo suggesting we just go to the top of this whole torture mess?
This walking crapfactory has been my rep. for far too long.
April 28th, 2009 at 10:32 pmRep. Manzullo, what part of equal justice under the law do you not understand?
April 28th, 2009 at 11:02 pmYet we have no problem incarcerating the 2 million plus in jails/prisons today.
April 28th, 2009 at 11:23 pmIMPEACH:
worstbailoutintheworld.com
Your tax donations pay my salary!
April 28th, 2009 at 11:26 pmThanks so much TP,
Keith Olbermann
When we examine this fully we are going to find abuses, torture, and murder that make what any other country look civilized by comparison. We have tortured men, women, children as young as 8 years old. We have murdered hundreds and buried them in unmarked graves. We have disappeard tens of thousands of people, many being held for years at black sites all around the world, constantly tortured for years.
The confessions gave them the “evidence” they needed to justify the invasion of Iraq, which has killed a million people and wounded and displaced millions more.
History is going to judge this as an inquisition the equal to any in history.
History will judge the brutality as the equal to the worst injustices in history.
History will judge this.
April 28th, 2009 at 11:35 pmflight Says:
If the torture produced such significant results, why is the right screaming bloody murder. I just think there is something else.
There’s a lot more, I guarantee it. You can’t systematically torture a large number of people for a long time without killing some of them. We have yet to get a full accounting of the dead. We have yet to get a full method of the “techniques” employed. We have yet to get a full accounting of why they did each thing that they did when they did it.
All I know is two things:
1) Every time we find out something new, they say that’s all there is to find out.
2) Each new thing we find out is exponentially more horrific than the last.
Thus, it’s guaranteed to get a hell of a lot worse before we hit the bottom. Like Dante’s Inferno shit up in there. And all in the name of “protecting our freedom.”
April 29th, 2009 at 12:06 amElBruce, ditto
flight
April 29th, 2009 at 12:17 am.
So, the next crime I commit a crime and get caught for it I can simply say to the arresting officer, “You know, this means you’re going to have to examine each piece of evidence, each step I took, each witness I encountered… and I really think you have better things to take care of,” …
… YES?
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April 29th, 2009 at 1:11 am…But then again, that’s too much suicide…
April 29th, 2009 at 2:09 amDon Manzullo, you have 5 minutes to kill yourself.
April 29th, 2009 at 2:09 amMy last two posts were inverted. What’s up with that?
April 29th, 2009 at 2:10 amSo he is the authority?
Will all those that screamed for Scooter Libby to be commuted begin whining?
April 29th, 2009 at 4:31 amAs with the primary campaign we As Americans are now looking at the same problem of deciding whether or not we are sophisticated enough nation to “MULTITASK”. The one person who suspended his campaign and “went back to Washington” said no we can’t we can only do “one thing at a time”. I don’t think the American people thought much of that opinion. On the other hand, his opponent “that other guy…what’s his name? I forget because they now call him Mr. President so often or the Winner…..something like that proved we Americans CAN multitask..
PLEASE….It does not have to be mandatory that we devote the entire eight-hour workday of the whole administration just to prosecute a few damn criminals. The justice department does it every day. If they had robbed your house or raped your little girl(not something I am inexperienced with, my daughter was raped so I do not use this example lightly) I assure you, you would demand they be held accountable.
Why is it that the only two positions that seem to be considered in the media are retribution or exoneration? Where the hell is right and wrong? Where the hell is emphasis on lawbreaking-guilt or innocence? What about “A country of laws, not men”? Who are these people they deserve a free pass? Based upon your logic, when one has been exposed to a major tragedy certain crimes are excusable.
My I remind you, our children are watching us to see how we respond to this band of criminals. They are watching to see if we are really stand up people or “blowing in the wind”. If we don’t stand now, in the face of such atrocities against mankind, when will we stand? This is the same attitude that has allowed the resulting 200 years of discrimination against Blacks after slavery. No damn body will stand firm and condemn wrong. everybody wants “get over it and let it go”! If we as a people, stand FIRM for what is right instead of always trying to marginalize and minimize the pain caused by the lawbreaking of citizens, who are just as obligated to obey the same laws that we ourselves have to obey, it will make us a stronger nation. We will survive OK….We’ll live and succeed through doing the right thing.
I must disagree with you on this matter, sir. As an Honorably discharged US Army Veteran I cringe when I think of what “retribution” these people have set in motion for our military serving around the world. It only aggravates my anger when coupled with the fact that the authorizers of this treatment of out opponents were all cowards who ran from voluntary and compulsory service as fast as they could, when their number was called. They have been cowards their entire lives yet you want us to “let them off the hook” when they offer up our brave men and women to be subjects of torture. Make no mistake about it, that is exactly what these weak-spine men did.
NO! Prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law, immediately, if not sooner. No only prosecute them but I strongly advocate waterboarding them, and slamming their damn heads against a “flexible wall” too. Since they seem to think that is appropriate punishment for withholding information I’m sure with all the information they have withheld they should find no problem with the experience!
April 29th, 2009 at 5:14 amIf Don Manzullo killed himself (hopefully) would it be “more suicide than not?”
April 29th, 2009 at 8:05 amOh, so people who are in positions of trust and authority shouldn’t be held accountable if they violate the law, but someone who might possess a half-ounce of MJ for personal use should be charged and convicted?
Interesting set of ethics and morals there!
April 29th, 2009 at 9:46 am“Prosecutions are a hassle!” Statements like this prove ,”if stupidity was a snowflake, Manzullo would be a blizzard!”
April 29th, 2009 at 9:47 amI’ve got to rob me a bank. When I’m in front of the judge, all I have to say is:
*) Let’s not look backwards, but look forwards.
*) Prosecutions are a hassle.
The shame is that the Bush Cabal raided the biggest bank in the world (the US Govt) and they seem immune.
I also add that in parallel to the Torture Investigations, the Civil Rights movement was solved in the 1950s by not talking about it. Things were so much more peaceful in the 50s when the N-word was in common speech. It was only in the 60s, when liberal troublemakers started talking about civil rights that civil rights became a problem.
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