Obama Hits Back Against Bybee’s Defense: ‘Legal Rationales’ For Torture Memos Were ‘A Mistake’
Obama Hits Back Against Bybee’s Defense: ‘Legal Rationales’ For Torture Memos Were ‘A Mistake’
In tonight’s press conference, ABC’s Jake Tapper asked President Obama if he believes “that the previous administration sanctioned torture,” in light of Obama’s recent release of Bush-era torture memos. Obama refrained from saying the Bush administration committed criminal acts, but he said, “I do believe that it [waterboarding] is torture.” The President added that the legal guidance that Bush lawyers provided were a “mistake”:
QUESTION: Do you believe the previous administration sanctioned torture?
OBAMA: I believe that waterboarding was torture. And I think that the — whatever legal rationales were used, it was a mistake.
Watch it:
Although Obama has repeatedly said that waterboarding is torture, his response saying that the “legal rationales” were “a mistake” is important because it discredits 9th Circuit Court Judge Jay Bybee’s recent claim that his flawed OLC memos were legally sound.
Yesterday, Bybee “broke his silence” and talked to the New York Times about his torture memos. While anonymous friends of Bybee said that the former OLC head regretted signing off on the torture memos, Bybee defended his memos as legally “correct“:
[H]e said: “The central question for lawyers was a narrow one; locate, under the statutory definition, the thin line between harsh treatment of a high-ranking Al Qaeda terrorist that is not torture and harsh treatment that is. I believed at the time, and continue to believe today, that the conclusions were legally correct.” [...]
“The legal question was and is difficult,” he said. “And the stakes for the country were significant no matter what our opinion. In that context, we gave our best, honest advice, based on our good-faith analysis of the law.”
Obama’s belief that the notorious memoranda written by Judge Bybee were legally flawed add further justification to the need for Bybee to resign his seat on the federal court.
Please join our campaign calling on Congress to begin impeachment hearings against Jay Bybee.
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We anxiously await the review of the memos and writings that preceded the final memos to see if legal opinions were changed. And if so, why?
PEACE
April 29th, 2009 at 9:52 pmthey’re acting out with the meme that dems were in on it too. those dems who were complicit, i’d like for them to be named. also, if they believed the dems are so political with this, why are they still keeping torture on the forefront after they were elected. if dems only cared for it to be a campaign talking point, wouldn’t they just get what they wanted out of it and forget about it? not so political after all. principled, yes.
April 29th, 2009 at 9:54 pmThere is no doubt that liberals smell blood in the water and want to stack all courts with liberal judges who can re-write the Constitution. The obvious attempt to demonize Judge Bybee is purely partisan politics at it worst in an attempt to railroad him out of office. There is no doubt that at the time this opinion was rendered that public opinion would have supported it. The climate is different now, and it is that context that the sharks are circling. Judge Bybee should hang tough and resist the hypocritical pressure by all the liberal mouthpieces.
April 29th, 2009 at 9:54 pmHi Philip50
April 29th, 2009 at 9:55 pmIt was more than a mistake, Mr Obama, it was a felony and under the UN Convention on Torture, which is also US law, you are obligated to prosecute it.
Philip, the memos were how-to manuals for torturers and the shoddiest of legal scholarship. No mention is made of the substantial body of US and international law, court decisions or past prosecution for torture. Since the Constitution states that duly ratified treaties are the law of the land, I find it difficult to understand your assertion that liberals want to rewrite it.
If torture is a partisan issue, that says all anyone needs to know about the Republican party.
April 29th, 2009 at 9:58 pmPhilip50 Says:
The obvious attempt to demonize Judge Bybee is purely partisan politics at it worst in an attempt to railroad him out of office.
With all due respect, if that is how you understand what is happening, then I would politely like to point out that you are in error.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:04 pmA mistake? A fcuking mistake? Perverting the law was no mere “mistake.” They were asked to provide cover to a criminal operation. They submitted. In doing so, they became part of that criminal operation.
.
Philip50 Says:
There is no doubt that liberals smell blood in the water and want to stack all courts with liberal judges who can re-write the Constitution.
I’d be happy to get back to the Constitution. You’re the ones who’ve been twisting it into unrecognizability. Hell, if we had nothing but moderate, by-the-book judges from here on out, we (the not-crazy-people) would win. Example: Souter.
.
Philip50 Says:
Judge Bybee should hang tough and resist the hypocritical pressure by all the liberal mouthpieces.
Impeachment goes down in history. Skulking away with your head held down at least gets forgotten after a generation.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:06 pmPhilip50 Says:
——————————————————————————–
There is no doubt that liberals smell blood in the water and want to stack all courts with liberal judges who can re-write the Constitution. The obvious attempt to demonize Judge Bybee is purely partisan politics at it worst in an attempt to railroad him out of office. There is no doubt that at the time this opinion was rendered that public opinion would have supported it. The climate is different now, and it is that context that the sharks are circling. Judge Bybee should hang tough and resist the hypocritical pressure by all the liberal mouthpieces.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:08 pm=============================================================
The shame of kicking crooks appointed by a crime family out is so scary to wingnuts. Bybee is a crook just like Bush and Cheney. You lost and we are in charge now. Sit down and STFU. When we are finished with those crooks you will not want to identify with them, Sparky.
There is no doubt that Philip50 is delusional.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:10 pmAS Rachel Maddow pointed out a few minutes ago.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:11 pmMistake is too kind and isn’t a excuse to broke the law.
BuschCo sanctioned torture.
George W. Bush sanctioned torture.
Richard Cheney sanctioned torture.
They didn’t just sanction torture.
They practiced torture over and over.
They sanctioned a torture machine.
All their lies are on video to comb through.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:14 pmBybee shoul be put on trial and tortured!
April 29th, 2009 at 10:15 pmThere is no doubt that liberals smell blood in the water and want to stack all courts with liberal judges who can re-write the Constitution.
Yes Phillip. It’s all a conspiracy. We’re out to GET YOU!!!!!!!!!
MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
April 29th, 2009 at 10:17 pm08Dariana Says:
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AS Rachel Maddow pointed out a few minutes ago.
Mistake is too kind and isn’t a excuse to broke the law
I love Rachel but she needs to chill. It is not the duty of the president to make allegations about the case. It is being investigated by the House and Senate. They will recommend to the DOJ. That is the way it works.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:17 pmThere are those still out there (I’m sure) who believe that the so-called “Enhanced Interrogation Techniques” were okay to use because we use them on S.E.R.E. trainees. This thinking is flawed for several reasons.
First, the techniques in question were chosen for the S.E.R.E. program specifically because they are illegal. It is presumed that you might be captured by someone who does not abide by the law, so the training is to prepare you for that. It would still be illegal to do those things to another person in just about any other capacity or setting.
Second, people subjected to these techniques in S.E.R.E. Training do so voluntarily. They may not pass the course if they don’t (I don’t know), but no one will make them do it against their will. This is an important distinction often ignored by the torture-supporters.
Think of it this way. If a man (of legal age) has sex with a woman (of legal age) who is doing so voluntarily, that is called “consensual sex” and it is legal. If a man has sex with a woman against her will, that is called “rape” and it is a crime.
If a person volunteers to be waterboarded as part of a survival course, that is called “training” and it is legal. If a person is waterboarded against his will (especially while in custody), that is called “torture” and it is a crime.
Does that make it any clearer for you? Just because we use those techniques “on our own soldiers” doesn’t mean they are legal to use on prisoners.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:19 pmAt least he didn’t denounce the notion of Bybee being impeached. :)
April 29th, 2009 at 10:20 pmRemember when bush famously said, no longer will “i was just taking orders” be an excuse for war crimes? Well he will understand why we have to prosecute the bushies then won’t he.
But what if you are giving the orders? Can you say “i was just giving orders”?
how about “i was just making a suggestion. he didn’t have to do it”. I like that one.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:20 pmHi, dbadass. Hi, everyone. Don’t you just feel the L-O-V-E?!
April 29th, 2009 at 10:22 pm@16 kasinca
i concur. I think it’s just that bush was such a criminalistic villainous type person for eight loooong years.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:23 pm@20 Philip50
I feels wonderful to be free of bush, and Obama is doing fine.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:24 pmHi, Philip50. Would you like to know why I feel the statement of yours that I quoted was in error?
April 29th, 2009 at 10:24 pmI don’t think Pre Obama was saying that mistake is a defense
Mistake of the law is not a legal defense and that is why he said that their reasoning used was a mistake/wrong
In his explanation, I think he hinted his answer with the Churchill analogy and his reason for declassifying the memos
If we are going to have a full investigation, I think it would be in our best interest for Holder and the legal dept to be the ones giving us definitions and full legal analysis
April 29th, 2009 at 10:25 pmHi, dbadass. Hi, everyone. Don’t you just feel the L-O-V-E?!
–
April 29th, 2009 at 10:25 pmNo, not really. I thought you wanted to talk intelligently about the topics of the day not make out…
Go ahead and impeach Bybee. It will just reveal the blind hatred of the left against those who philosophically disagree with them. It will also forever make Bybee famous and his treatment will become a rallying cry. Go ahead, blind partisans. Your pre-9/11 mentality will come back to haunt us all.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:25 pmOf course Obama didn’t say how he would get the information out of these top terrorists.
“Some other way.”
WHAT?
He didn’t say. Steak dinner? Waffles, eggs and bacon? Four-letter words? WHAT?
April 29th, 2009 at 10:26 pmThe “pre-911″ mentality seems to be one of those weird phrases that no one can define sort of like that odd unexplainable thing about how gay marriage is a threat to heterosexual marriages. Catch phrases are funny…
April 29th, 2009 at 10:28 pmleftist hate! ahhh my free speech! they’re taking it away, i’m choking! the leffffffffffffffties!!!!!!!!!!!! ahhhhhhh! i’m a victim!!!!!!!!!!!!!
April 29th, 2009 at 10:28 pmIt takes a real man to stand up and tell the truth. For those trying to spin the torture policy it expains just how coward they are.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:28 pm@24 Madamsophia
Right. I think the mistake he refers to in this instance is a legal one.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:30 pmthe pre-9/11 mentality was CYA to a CIA briefer. it’s terrifyingly odd that we allow you guys to draft post-9/11 societal conduct when you were in a position to see the pre-9/11 writing on the wall.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:31 pm@26 Philip50
“blind hatred”? look out guys he has his deflector shield up. No getting through to trolls in projection mode.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:31 pmApe-Man Says:
“i concur. I think it’s just that bush was such a criminalistic villainous type person for eight loooong years.”
Response: You see it is comments like that that reveal your blind prejudice. This is a clear indication of the Bush Derangement Syndrome, which is more contagious on here than the swine flu!
Pres. Bush had his shortcomings. I saw them, but I will not point them out for you. However, in spite of his flaws, he is a decent, honest man. He may have been mistaken in his assessments and judgments on some things…something that is true for every president…but there is absolutely no evidence that he ever lied or committed a crime.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:31 pmpre 9/11 mentality: how can i convince the public to invade iraq?
post 9/11 mentality: draw up plans to invade iraq
April 29th, 2009 at 10:33 pmBush lost any remaining benefit of doubt long ago. We may be lucky we’re not living in a dictatorship right now. It will be up to Mr. bush to show us that decency and honesty, and to show us that he has not lied nor committed crimes. To do that he has to open up.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:35 pmdbadass Says:
“The “pre-911″ mentality seems to be one of those weird phrases that no one can define sort of like that odd unexplainable thing about how gay marriage is a threat to heterosexual marriages. Catch phrases are funny…”
It is easy to be dismissive of “catch phrases”, my friend, as if calling it a “catch phrase” makes the words impotent. It does not. A pre-9/11 mentality implies that the world is a “nice” place, and if we just treat everyone “nice”, then no one would dare to hate or hurt or attack us. Guess what? That was naive before 9/11, and it is still naive today! If Bush had not been so successful preventing a second 9/11 until now, we would not be having this discussion!
April 29th, 2009 at 10:35 pmPhilip50 Says:
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There is no doubt that at the time this opinion was rendered that public opinion would have supported it.
Just because an uninformed public may have supported it, doesn’t make it right or legal. True leadership requires not reacting in a knee jerk manner at an emotional level, but bringing forth to the public, with calm and reasoned statements, why something shouldn’t be done, even if it may make us feel better in the short term.
Phillip50, you would be a great follower under mob rule. This site is for people who think critically and read. Turn on your radio and listen to your compulsive liar Rush Limpless, he’s the true intellectual force of the GOP. The sheep will follow whatever the drug addict spews…
April 29th, 2009 at 10:35 pm@34 Philip50
I hope you’re right, but i have mostly lost hope.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:36 pmBush should be put on trial, not Bybee. I say let us go for the top!
April 29th, 2009 at 10:38 pm@37 Philip50
Don’t you know you can’t prove why we have been safe? I think it was my dog. Prove it was Bush and not my dog.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:40 pmPhilip with the IQ of 50 Says:
Go ahead and impeach Bybee. It will just reveal the blind hatred of the left against those who philosophically disagree with them. It will also forever make Bybee famous and his treatment will become a rallying cry. Go ahead, blind partisans. Your pre-9/11 mentality will come back to haunt us all.
Defending war criminals much?
April 29th, 2009 at 10:41 pmI agree “laworder” that legality should not be subject to public opinion. The reality is, however, that it often is! Would you not agree that there are many, many gray areas of jurisprudence? Were that not the case, why are our courts so busy? Why does a Circuit Court rule one way and a higher court rule another?
I submit that, although waterboarding sounds awful, one COULD argue that it is a gray area in regards to torture, especially when one considers the context and the exact method with which the procedure was carried out, something that we really do not know. Why the rush to judgment? Because it is politically expediant to do so? I think so.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:43 pm@34 Philip50
Did you know there have been few villains in history that ever thought of themselves as villains. They all considered themselves saints.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:43 pmPhilip50 Says:
However, in spite of his flaws, he is a decent, honest man. He may have been mistaken in his assessments and judgments on some things…something that is true for every president…but there is absolutely no evidence that he ever lied or committed a crime.
With all due respect, if that is how you understand what happened, then I would politely like to point out that you are in error.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:43 pmApe-Man Says:
“Pres. Bush had his shortcomings. I saw them, but I will not point them out for you. However, in spite of his flaws, he is a decent, honest man.”
I disagree, beside the fact the he was likely the worst president in U.S. history, Bush jr. is a foolish and arrogant person. By the way, decent men don’t invade countries and kill hundreds of thousands of innocent persons, based on false pretences. What makes Bush any better than Saddam Hussein himself, when Saddam illegally invaded Kuwait in 1991? That invasion was also based upon false pretences.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:43 pmA soon to be Fox News slogan:
FOX NEWS: The most ignored cable news source in America.
SWEET!!!!
April 29th, 2009 at 10:44 pmYou are right, Ape-Man, I can’t prove that. But if we were attacked, would you have blamed Bush? I think I know the answer. Therefore, it is reasonable to give him credit that we were not. Would you not agree?
April 29th, 2009 at 10:46 pm@43 Philip50
OK. We just need to verify. We won’t rush. we’ll take it slow and let them tell us all about it. It’s not like they are still torturing anymore, right? and they aren’t going anywhere, right?
OK, you’re right. Innocent until proven guilty as they say.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:47 pmPhilip50 Says:
You are right, Ape-Man, I can’t prove that. But if we were attacked, would you have blamed Bush? I think I know the answer. Therefore, it is reasonable to give him credit that we were not. Would you not agree?
No. I would respectfully disagree. I do not believe it is “reasonable to give him credit that we were not.”
April 29th, 2009 at 10:48 pmThe world is a nice place. Actually it is beyond nice. It is a magical wonderous beautiful place….
Which god or gods do you believe in that would make a world that can not be a nice place?
April 29th, 2009 at 10:49 pmApe-Man Says:
@34 Philip50
“Did you know there have been few villains in history that ever thought of themselves as villains. They all considered themselves saints.”
What about those that WERE saints? Does that mean to you that they were villains? Is everyone that has been smeared and pilloried or unpopular…or crucified, a villian? I think not.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:50 pm@48 Philip50
No, it’s not reasonable to blame any one, now, or then, except the perpetrators. The perpetrators are still on the loose, because, i believe, bush went easy on them.
Therefore nothing you said follows either.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:51 pmI think not.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:51 pm—
Fine but you live in a world that somehow can go from nice to not nice in relatively simple ways…
Philip50 Says:
However, in spite of his flaws, he is a decent, honest man. He may have been mistaken in his assessments and judgments on some things…something that is true for every president…but there is absolutely no evidence that he ever lied or committed a crime.
——————-
FAIL!
http://pearly-abraham.tripod.com/htmls/bushlies1.html
April 29th, 2009 at 10:51 pmPhilip50 Says:
——————————————————————————–
You are right, Ape-Man, I can’t prove that. But if we were attacked, would you have blamed Bush? I think I know the answer. Therefore, it is reasonable to give him credit that we were not. Would you not agree?
Hey genius: I blame Bush for 911 and his ignoring the warning a month prior. I blame Bush for invading iraq which had absolutely no connection to 911. I blame Bush for telling us that we do not torture while he is asking thugs like Bybee to find a way to cover his ass because he had already tortured. I blame Bush for wiretapping American citizens. I blame Bush and his crime family for all their crimes. I also look at mentally deranged wingers who still defend criminals. You are obviously a hero who never served in the military.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:53 pmSo to you Phillip50 Bush did not commit war crimes by authorizing torture? How?
April 29th, 2009 at 10:53 pmAnd yet under his administration we invaded Iraw where hundred of thousands died and routinely tortured prisoners. But you’re right, Bush is such a nice guy.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:56 pmHe didn’t say the legal rationale was a mistake. He said waterboarding (torture) was a mistake, regardless of the legal rationale.
Please learn to read/listen. You guys have gotten so bad at twisting the intent of what people say it seems like your using the favorite tactics of the right wingers. It only hurts your credibility.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:56 pmThe obvious attempt to demonize Judge Bybee is purely partisan politics at it worst…
Philip50: You’re a sick sadist if you support the torture of human beings. It wasn’t partisan politics when Boehner requested memos for Cheney?? Or when GOPers tried to shift blame to others in the Democratic Party?
April 29th, 2009 at 10:56 pm@52 Philip50 you’re getting it now. there’s all kinds of combinations.
What of a saint who becomes a villain you say? That happens too. However bush started out as a brush clearer on a farm.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:56 pmLaworder says: “By the way, decent men don’t invade countries and kill hundreds of thousands of innocent persons, based on false pretences.”
Whoa! I cannot let that go unchallenged. I was NOT in favor of going into Iraq. However, it was approved by the majority of Congress, Dem and Rep, and the United States acted under authority of the United Nations. It may have been ill-advised and ill-conceived in oh so many ways, but it was legal! That is indisputable.
As far as your reckless comment that we killed “hundreds of thousands of innocent persons”, that is a total lie and insults our brave armed forces. We have done everything possible to avoid civilian casualties. On the other hand, our enemies in Iraq and elsewhere deliberately target civilians. (9/11?!). The overwhelming majority of civilian deaths in Iraq were deliberate sectarian acts by Iraqis or other extremists upon Iraqis. Could we have had a better plan to secure the peace in Iraq? Absolutely. Do we therefore share in some of the blame for the high civilian toll? Probably, yes. But that is a far cry from your comments.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:57 pmWell, I’m off to watch TDS. Sorry you didn’t want to chat, Philip50.
Good night, Everyone. See you tomorrow.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:58 pmWe were attacked on 9/11 and Bush had been president for 8 months. Why don’t you hold him responsible?
April 29th, 2009 at 10:58 pm@59 lzcrmc Says
so you interpreted him to be referring to the moral question as opposed to a legal one?
April 29th, 2009 at 10:59 pmBush should be put on trail. He is responsible for 9/11 and let it happened.
April 29th, 2009 at 11:00 pm@68 The Wise Owl
Maybe one day they will take a look at what happened on 9/11.
April 29th, 2009 at 11:00 pmrepublicans hate facts,
April 29th, 2009 at 11:03 pmWhat should we do with Bush? Should we put him on trial for war crimes and treachery?
64 Philip50 Says:
Oh the stupidity it burns.
Looks like he just used every faux news talking point on invading Iraq and now we’ll have to waste time showing him the facts and he’ll ignore it.
Why bother…….
April 29th, 2009 at 11:05 pm@71 The Wise Owl
What a novel idea!
April 29th, 2009 at 11:05 pm@64 Philip50
Do you really still believe George Bush is just a well meaning oaf, that couldn’t get anything right so help himself, but he tried?
April 29th, 2009 at 11:08 pmLooks like RHF told him and now he’ll ignore the facts sighs
April 29th, 2009 at 11:08 pmSo Wise Owl, are you suggesting that we should have put Roosevelt on trial for allowing Pearl Harbor? There was much more information that that was going to happen than about 9/11? Do you want to criminalize every potential failure of our leaders? Bush did not personally fail to stop Bin Laden. Our intelligence and FBI did.
Besides, we all know that Clinton was offered Bin Laden by the Sudan, and did not act upon it, even though Bin Laden had already tried to bring down the WTC under Clinton’s watch.
April 29th, 2009 at 11:12 pmWell, no. I am not calling Bybee the Devil or Satam or calling him evil or a godless pagan. What I think is that Bybee was a yes man who looked for ways to split hairs, to find a way for his boss to ignore the law by redefining the law.
April 29th, 2009 at 11:12 pmLinks?
April 29th, 2009 at 11:14 pmPhilip going on how he post I believe that wise owl is a conservative just like you.
April 29th, 2009 at 11:15 pmWait. So this means we can put to rest the talking point of Bush keeping America safe since 911?
April 29th, 2009 at 11:16 pmPhilip50 Says:
However, it was approved by the majority of Congress, Dem and Rep, and the United States acted under authority of the United Nations. It may have been ill-advised and ill-conceived in oh so many ways, but it was legal! That is indisputable.
Actually, the United Nations was against it. That was very much on record.
Also, Bush asked Congress for war authorization so he could “negotiate from a position of strength.” The day after he got the authorization, he walked away saying “negotiations have failed.” Then he started the war that he was supposed to try to avoid.
.
Doodlebug Shayne Says:
We were attacked on 9/11 and Bush had been president for 8 months. Why don’t you hold him responsible?
He’d been on vacation for most of those 8 months. It’s totally unfair to attack while the President is on vacation.
April 29th, 2009 at 11:16 pmIs saying the Sudan instead of Sudanese sort of like Democrat versus Democratic ala pre911 versus post random speak. Damn that agendaspeak…
April 29th, 2009 at 11:16 pmSo these werent working vacations as the pundits have proclaimed?
April 29th, 2009 at 11:18 pm@76 Philip50
Rosevelt earned the benefit of the doubt. bush just the opposite.
April 29th, 2009 at 11:19 pmBesides, we all know that Clinton was offered Bin Laden by the Sudan, and did not act upon it, even though Bin Laden had already tried to bring down the WTC under Clinton’s watch.
Links?
This has been shot down so many times in the past eight years I hardly believe wingnuts still play the same pathetic game. They are still blaming Clinton while they had a crime family in office for eight years. It is like the delusional wingnuts skip over their failures. Trolls and wingnuts are just not very smart and that is why they are republicans and their party is dead!
April 29th, 2009 at 11:21 pmI would disagree. Bush was not given an automatic trigger, he was supposed to return to the UN before going into Iraq.
April 29th, 2009 at 11:21 pmApe-Man Says:
“Do you really still believe George Bush is just a well meaning oaf, that couldn’t get anything right so help himself, but he tried?”
Response: I do believe that GWB is a well meaning mortal man who has had a lot of help appearing like an oaf.
08Dariana Says:
“Looks like RHF told him and now he’ll ignore the facts sighs”
Response: We all know now that the intelligence about Iraq was flawed. There is absolutely no evidence that Bush knew it was false, any more than Biden or Clinton or many others who supported invading Iraq. Your “facts” are simply accusations and heresay with no basis except a pathological desire to blame someone. Bush got blamed for a war that drug on far too long, and his party has paid the price at the polls. That is the way democracy works. I think he, in particular, and the Republicans, in general, have gotten a bum rap, and after the over-reaching by the Obama liberals, the electorate will wise up and swing back toward the middle again. That is the way America seems to go. But I think those of you rabid bush-haters on here really do America an injustice by seeking your revenge against him or other members of his administation. We had an election. You won. Let’s move on or it will end up severely damaging our country.
April 29th, 2009 at 11:21 pm@76 Philip50
With bush you have to expect the worst case and just hope for the best. it’s a bit like ‘trust but verify’ but without the ‘trust’ part. that’s the bush has lost.
April 29th, 2009 at 11:22 pmThey are elected servants, not leaders.
April 29th, 2009 at 11:22 pmI’m calling that the #1 most ominously portentous use of the word “mistake” ever in a Preidential statement.
April 29th, 2009 at 11:22 pmHi American Patsy
April 29th, 2009 at 11:23 pmCmon, the WMD was destroyed in the first gulf war, they knew that.
April 29th, 2009 at 11:23 pmXisithrus Says:
“Besides, we all know that Clinton was offered Bin Laden by the Sudan, and did not act upon it, even though Bin Laden had already tried to bring down the WTC under Clinton’s watch.
Links?”
Response: http://www.infowars.com/saved%20pages/Prior_Knowledge/Clinton_let_bin_laden.htm
April 29th, 2009 at 11:24 pmWhat does that really mean?
April 29th, 2009 at 11:25 pmHi American Patsy…
April 29th, 2009 at 11:25 pmAlso, I did not know Dick Cheney’s middle name was Phillip.
Learn something new every day.
April 29th, 2009 at 11:26 pmBecause he hasnt released more Bush secrets…
April 29th, 2009 at 11:26 pmThat wont work this time, phil.
April 29th, 2009 at 11:28 pmAmerican Patsy gets a “WTF are you lame or what?” by The fellow that will pwn American Patsy even on their best day…
April 29th, 2009 at 11:28 pm08Dariana Says:
——————————————————————————–
Philip going on how he post I believe that wise owl is a conservative just like you
Whoops! thank you for pointing that out. I see that the Wise Owl was not advocating trying Bush. Sorry Owl. I misconstrued your post.
April 29th, 2009 at 11:29 pmIt’s okay Philip50, you also misconstrued the world as a less than nice and beautiful place…
April 29th, 2009 at 11:29 pm(sheesh, poor sap can’t even spell pansy correctly)
the trials sure are going to be fun to watch on the cspan.
April 29th, 2009 at 11:30 pmXisithrus Says:
“Bush did not personally fail to stop Bin Laden. Our intelligence and FBI did.”
“Wait. So this means we can put to rest the talking point of Bush keeping America safe since 911?”
Response: It is tough to keep up with all of your attempts at faulty logic. Bush should get credit for making the protection of America his top priority after 9/11, and directing and leading the changes in the way we operate to insure our safety.
April 29th, 2009 at 11:31 pm110:
April 29th, 2009 at 11:32 pmWhat is your point?
Philip50 Says:
Response: We all know now that the intelligence about Iraq was flawed.
Read the recently released memo yet and the FBI interrogator statements?
SERE told the Bush admin that torture would provide false information.
April 29th, 2009 at 11:33 pmAfter the suspect gave every info he had with traditional techniques, he provided no Link between Sadam Hussein and Al Quida.
Then they used torture and got him to make a BS link between Sadam and Al Quida.
Bush approved torture so he knew.
4000+ of our people died on freaking LIES and thousands of innocents.
I do believe that GWB is a well meaning mortal man
I used to think that. I’m not convinced. His actions have been too well coordinated with cover ups and deceptions.
Do you realise well meaning intentions will have more relevance to sentencing than to any criminal charges that may be put forward?
April 29th, 2009 at 11:34 pmPhilip50:
April 29th, 2009 at 11:34 pmWhile we are given Bush credit shall we also give him credit for the economic situation Why? Why Not?
I find the article quite…vague and not believable.
April 29th, 2009 at 11:34 pmWhy not before 911???
April 29th, 2009 at 11:36 pmrhf at 106: I am SO IMPRESSED by your eloquence, objectivity, and civility.
April 29th, 2009 at 11:39 pmJay Bybee is now documentably, in damning detail, complicit in the subornation of war crimes. Period. He must be held to account. Period. Squeeze him, ’til he flips on the Big Fish.
April 29th, 2009 at 11:39 pm@119 republicans hate facts Says:
I have to agree. I suppose we all have good intentions.
April 29th, 2009 at 11:42 pmI read the link you gave Philip and its devoid of facts. There are no times, or dates, or who was contacted by Mansoor. Its just not clicking with me.
April 29th, 2009 at 11:43 pmDang, I love you guys.
April 29th, 2009 at 11:44 pmPhilip50 Says:
We all know now that the intelligence about Iraq was flawed
==========
If that is the case why did Bush decide to invade Iraq on flawed intelligence, where was his frigging common sense?
Cheney and Rummy knew the intelligence was flawed but decided to break the law using Cheney’s secret “Intra-Government Office of Lawlessness.”
Don’t worry that tyrant Bybee will be gone:) and where have you been climates always change?
April 29th, 2009 at 11:46 pmdbadass Says:
“Philip50:
While we are given Bush credit shall we also give him credit for the economic situation Why? Why Not?”
Response: Good question. In general, I think most presidents receive either too much blame or too much credit for economic fluctuations while they are in office. For example: Clinton benefitted from a booming tech market, which was beginning to burst as he was leaving. He also was riding the real estate bubble which finally burst under Bush. Most president’s actions probably affect the guy after them, more than their own term in office. Would you not agree?
As far as our current terrible mess, there is a lot of blame to go around. I am sure the Bush Administration deserves some of it…also Clinton and even back to Carter with the dumbing-down of lending standards, etc. It was McCain and the Republicans that tried to reign in Fannie and Freddie, but Barney Frank and Chuck Schumer, among others blocked it.
Your thoughts?
April 29th, 2009 at 11:48 pmalso Clinton and even back to Carter
Oh god when will these people grow up.
April 29th, 2009 at 11:55 pmPhilip50 Says:
Response: We all know now that the intelligence about Iraq was flawed. There is absolutely no evidence that Bush knew it was false, any more than Biden or Clinton or many others who supported invading Iraq.
Something I’ve been wondering – if Bush went to war because the intelligence was flawed, where’s the outcry for the CIA agent or agents who screwed it up? I would think that if some flunky in a cubicle was responsible for the President of the United States invading the wrong country, and if people didn’t want the POTUS to take the blame, they’d be at least a little interested in seeing some CIA heads rolling. But nary a peep from the right.
Never once have I heard a right-winger calling for the outing and expulsion of whoever it was who was responsible for the “bad intelligence” that caused Bush to make a horribly wrong decision.
Come to mention it, George Tenet, after signing off and passing on all that “bad intelligence” received a Presidential Medial of Freedom from Dubya. How could he do such a thing while the origination of that “bad intelligence” still went unexposed? It went through him. He called it a “slam dunk.”
You would think that Bush would at least be somewhat cold to him until he was able to produce a scapegoat. But instead he gave Tenet a medal. But Tenet hadn’t done anything (other than that screw-up) of any particular merit.
What’s the deal with all that? Huh? Huh?
April 29th, 2009 at 11:56 pm@137 republicans hate facts
Hehhe. say no more.
April 29th, 2009 at 11:58 pm@138 ElBruce
I belive there will only one possible conclusion. And it will be the worst case scenario. Deliberate, methodical deception and corruption.
April 30th, 2009 at 12:01 amIf bush has been set up he can appear on Larry King and set the record straight. Problem solved.
April 30th, 2009 at 12:04 amlzcrmc Says:
He didn’t say the legal rationale was a mistake. He said waterboarding (torture) was a mistake, regardless of the legal rationale.
Please learn to read/listen. You guys have gotten so bad at twisting the intent of what people say it seems like your using the favorite tactics of the right wingers. It only hurts your credibility.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:56 pm
Sorry, I listened carefully to that part, and listened to it more than once on the follow-up shows, and I believe that you are incorrect.
April 30th, 2009 at 12:04 amI have a different view of the dumbing down of lending standards. They werent comcerned with lending standards because they thought derivatives had removed the risk. They were planning on selling off the mortgages to investors and betting on the performance of SIVs, which held, usually some 100 mortgages. Why the derivatives market, opaque, created some 600 trillion [if not more] in profit over a short period. Why, the more loans the better. Thats what, I think, was driving the NINJA loans. Besides that those people didnt get to keep the house when they were foreclosed on, it went back to banks.
April 30th, 2009 at 12:08 amrepublicans hate facts Says:
“So the UNREGULATED ABILITY to *SECURITIZE* MORTGAGES that the *EXPERTS* blame for this COLLAPSE had *NOTHING* to do with it? A *CHANGE* brought to you by the GOP? SURE!! ROTFL!! MORON!”
Response: Read your history, Repub hater. Even though the Republicans held the majority at the time, it was NOT a super-majority, and it was the Democrats in Congress that blocked their attempt to regulate Fannie and Freddie. Speaking of talking points. You guys want to blame de-regulation and the Republicans. That is just not the case. It was Frank who was sleeping with his boyfriend at Freddie and Schumer (who got a sweetheart loan deal) among others, who blocked Republican attempts to stop the risky loans. Plus the black congressional caucus, i.e. other dems, wanted to keep up the easy loans that were begun under Carter and expanded under Clinton. Do you want me to supply the links or do you want to look them up yourself?
April 30th, 2009 at 12:08 am@146 American Patsy
They never asked him the question – “do you think the previous administration committed criminal acts”
April 30th, 2009 at 12:10 amHe did say that legalities will be taken care of by the DOJ as it should be.
149 Philip so what you’re saying is that deregulation (small government) is because of Democrats?
April 30th, 2009 at 12:12 amAh. Poor twisted, stupid, trolls. They can’t get it through their skulls that the scary terrorists remain a threat because of people who think as they do.
Is it any wonder that they can’t grasp the simple fact that Chimpy earned the eternal enmity of the majority of the Mideast as soon as the first bomb landed in Baghdad?
April 30th, 2009 at 12:12 amrepublicans hate facts Says: “F**KKK off you TEABAGISTAN MORON…”
Response: Ah…the Democrat Party…the party of tolerance. Don’t you love it?! And may I add, the party of eloquent oratory. Then again, perhaps his teleprompter wasn’t working.
April 30th, 2009 at 12:15 amNot to worry Gergen has plenty of index cards written on with a sharpie
April 30th, 2009 at 12:17 amI bet about one or two in ten people have the “all for me and screw the rest – they’ll just screw you anyway” attitude. Has the rethuglic party whithered into the “all for me and screw the rest – they’ll just screw you anyway” party? I think so.
April 30th, 2009 at 12:18 amThink about this, we have as nearly as many contract folks in Iraq as the military does..
How can government get smaller when its spending more?
April 30th, 2009 at 12:18 amIs the size of government measured in spending?
TARP didnt go to the people, it went to private banks.
Hail Privatization! Scheme of Schemes!
April 30th, 2009 at 12:19 amPhilip50
April 30th, 2009 at 12:19 amWe’re tolerant to facts, reality, principles not lies and fantasy
Gee, Phil. You’re making things up. Please provide a specific example of regulatory legislation that was vetoed, blocked, filibustered, or otherwise thwarted, or forced upon the Reps for that matter, by Democrats in the last forty years.
And please don’t try to ignore the fact that we’ve had a Republican President for 28 of those forty years. Or that the Reps had the House, the Senate, or both for thirty of those forty years.
In short, arguments that the Republicans “couldn’t prevent the Democrats from effing everything up” are ridiculous.
April 30th, 2009 at 12:22 ampete Says:
“Ah. Poor twisted, stupid, trolls. They can’t get it through their skulls that the scary terrorists remain a threat because of people who think as they do.
Is it any wonder that they can’t grasp the simple fact that Chimpy earned the eternal enmity of the majority of the Mideast as soon as the first bomb landed in Baghdad?”
Response: Hi, Pete.
Surely you don’t believe what you just said. Are you minimizing the threat we face. What will it take? A nuke in New York harbor to convince you? We cannot afford to be take that risk.
Got to sign off. However, Pete was it you that asked me what I thought Truth is? At the risk of really being judged and pigeon-holed, here is a link that kind of says it all for me. I seek the Truth, but certainly know only a small portion of it. And, I am often wrong (though perhaps not about all the things that you guys on here think!). But this is about the author of Truth, in my own opinion. Watch it with an open mind, if you will. It is really good. Best regards all (even you Repub hater. Hey, I never said I was a Republican.).
Intro_to_Christ_2.wmv
April 30th, 2009 at 12:26 amIs it any wonder that they can’t grasp the simple fact that Chimpy earned the eternal enmity of the majority of the Mideast as soon as the first bomb landed in Baghdad?
The craziest, most tragic event in recent history. Deliberate slaughter of countless innocent citizens of a forein land on the other side of the earth by bombardment from above.
April 30th, 2009 at 12:27 amI just realized that link doesn’t work like I thought. I will see if I can come up with it. Sorry! Good night.
April 30th, 2009 at 12:27 amgotta put a http://www. in front of the link Philip.
April 30th, 2009 at 12:31 am@165 Philip50 Says
He is suggesting no such thing. you are jumping to conclusion.
April 30th, 2009 at 12:32 amsighs and my question at 113 won’t be answer and all the rest, well good night all I had a great day with the trolls I guess.
April 30th, 2009 at 12:32 am@165 Philip50 Says
He is suggesting that you are endangering us all.
April 30th, 2009 at 12:34 amThe moronic attack on Iraq did more to facilitate nuclear proliferation than any event since the height of the Cold War. And it helped destabilize Pakistan.
Before the attack no one had the capability or will to stage a nuclear attack on the U.S. No fringe group has the capability to this day but, there are motivated people within striking range of Pakistan’s nukes. This most likely would not have happened without the invasion of Iraq.
April 30th, 2009 at 12:35 amHere is some of the evidence of the Democrats blocking reform (and this one does have the www. Thanks for pointing that out :-) ). Watch it and weap:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs
April 30th, 2009 at 12:38 amI remember when our politicians pushed ‘Atoms for peace’
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atoms_for_Peace
April 30th, 2009 at 12:38 amAnd today its Atoms of War…*sigh*
April 30th, 2009 at 12:39 amReform, I find, is much like relativity, it depends on ones POV [point of view]
April 30th, 2009 at 12:39 amrepublicans hate fact Says:
“Philip50 Says:
But this is about the author of Truth, in my own opinion.
Is that why NO TWO COPIES of the *THOUSANDS* of manuscripts the vatican has are the SAME? Because the *ONE* that YOU READ is *THE-TRUTH*? ROTFL! You SAPS are a bunch of DUM BASS RUBES!”
Response: Are you saying that you don’t approve of Christians in the Democrat Party? And you haven’t even seen what the video is about yet. Aren’t you just a little curious? You may be surprised.
I addressed that to Pete, with the disclaimer that it was simply my opinion. You have a right to a different point of view. Can you not respect mine, or that of the majority of your own party?
April 30th, 2009 at 12:42 amhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMnSp4qEXNM&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usvG-s_Ssb0&feature=related
April 30th, 2009 at 12:44 amI asked this the other day…
Q U E S T I O N:
How legal can a memo be when it advises one on how to violate the law?
Aren’t legal memos ones that advise one how to operate within the confines of the law?
CAN WE STOP CALLING THESE LEGAL MEMOS?
Or can I have a legal memo advising me on driving while intoxicated so that if and when I hit someone while drunk, my @ss will be covered, especially if they die from my recklessness?
.
April 30th, 2009 at 12:46 am.
Pete: Here is the link I meant to send earlier. My apologies for the mix-up. I hope you find it interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNNNUukti84
April 30th, 2009 at 12:47 amI dont have a problem with religion, but when people use it to judge me because they are doing GODs work, that I have a problem with. There are far too many beliefs that people hold and to use government to proselytize I cannot abide by. We are all of one race with differing views. We should not be fighting over whose view is right but learning to coexist because we are, after all one big, perhaps dysfunctional, family.
BTW I do know a higher power.
April 30th, 2009 at 12:50 amWatch it and weap
Even if the Democrats did block something, does that means the republicans have to pass something to make everyone even?
April 30th, 2009 at 12:50 am.
Dear Philip50,
Hello…
… When did torture become legal?
If you want to be taken seriously, I seriously suggest you set your argument in concreteness. The USA has laws that strictly forbid TORTURE and waterboarding. Unless those laws have been changed, you’re actually postulating unamerican principles and morals. When did TORTURE become legal so that your baseless argument has a leg to stand on?
Or are you postulating that Bybee was a liberal, attempting to rewrite the Constitution?
.
April 30th, 2009 at 12:50 amWow, Obama called it a “mistake.” Bold move.
How about “crime“?
Now that wasn’t so hard.
April 30th, 2009 at 12:53 am.
Dear Philip50,
That “Big Tent” of Freedom…
FREEDOM from TORTURE…
FREEDOM from RELIGION…
FREEDOM from UNWARRANTED SEARCHES…
Yea, that one?
WE WANT IT BACK!!!
.
April 30th, 2009 at 12:54 amDamn, that sounds alot like what I posted earlier and I am not even an economist.
April 30th, 2009 at 12:54 am.
The patsy’s back…
… What a patsy.
.
April 30th, 2009 at 12:56 amXisithrus Says:
“Response: Are you saying that you don’t approve of Christians in the Democrat Party?”
“I dont have a problem with religion, but when people use it to judge me because they are doing GODs work, that I have a problem with. There are far too many beliefs that people hold and to use government to proselytize I cannot abide by. We are all of one race with differing views. We should not be fighting over whose view is right but learning to coexist because we are, after all one big, perhaps dysfunctional, family.”
Response: I mostly agree with you. What often happens though is the reverse of what you described. The opinion of people of faith is often dismissed as invalid by those who do not share the same faith. We all have a belief system. There should be mutual respect for that, and our opinions are simply that, our opinions. Having said that, it is the responsibility of government to administer justice and to develop laws for society. Those laws themselves eminate from tenets of faith. That is irrefutable and unavoidable. In fact it is necessary. Government should not influence religion or faith. However, government will always be influenced by faith systems. And, in America, our laws emanate from a judeao-christian faith system. That is our history and our heritage, and I think it has served us well.
April 30th, 2009 at 1:01 amMax Anax junius -1 Says:
——————————————————————————–
.
Dear Philip50,
Hello…
… When did torture become legal?
If you want to be taken seriously, I seriously suggest you set your argument in concreteness. The USA has laws that strictly forbid TORTURE and waterboarding. Unless those laws have been changed, you’re actually postulating unamerican principles and morals. When did TORTURE become legal so that your baseless argument has a leg to stand on?
Or are you postulating that Bybee was a liberal, attempting to rewrite the Constitution?
Response: Show me where waterboarding is defined as illegal?
April 30th, 2009 at 1:03 amrepublicans hate facts Says:
——————————————————————————–
Philip50 Says:
Response: Show me where waterboarding is defined as illegal?
That’s been done REPEATEDLY… Are you going to listen THIS TIME or are you going to do what you TROLLS ALWAYS DO? Keep *REPEATING* your LIES no matter *WHAT* you read?
Response: Really? I am NOT an advocate of waterboarding. Neither am I an advocate for the architects of 9/11 and terrorists. However, indulge me one more time, and show me where waterboarding is illegal. I would really like to see that.
April 30th, 2009 at 1:14 amOh, so a Human Rights Watch LETTER is the basis for your claim? I am sorry, but you need to do better than that!
April 30th, 2009 at 1:16 amRepublican Hater: You are obviously one wounded sorry sucker. I am really sorry for your pain. But to show such intolerance for others is NOT the answer to peace and contentment in your life. Neither is re-writing history.
Have you ever visited Washington, D. C. Christian images and doctrine are cast in stone and bronze all over the city. Speaches of Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, etc. are repleat with references to our Divine heritage and providence. Don’t run from it. That is our history. You may not share their faith, but at least respect it. Repeating lies about it often do not change the facts. We ARE a secular society based upon Christian priniciples. You may not like that, but you are the beneficiary of it.
April 30th, 2009 at 1:21 amFaith means to believe. Laws came about because of righteousness, to do the right thing, which many faiths, because we are human, aspire to. Jesus warns of the problems with greed and usury. Money making money. That has little, if anything, to do with faith.
Some people believe they can fly, thats a faith. Notice I said I know a higher power, not that I had faith that a higher power exists.
April 30th, 2009 at 1:24 am.
Dear Philip50,
I showed you the other day…
US LAW RE: TORTURE
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sup_01_18_10_I_20_113C.html
US PRESIDENCE RE: WATER BOARDING 1983 case
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html
RECENT COMMENT SUMMERIZING THE HISTORY OF THE USA and TORTURE!
Now, care to answer my question and cite when TORTURE became legal?
.
April 30th, 2009 at 1:24 amWell, if the Bush admin knew that waterboarding was legal, then why go thru all the trouble of couching terms in such a way as to redefine it as ‘enhanced interrogation’?
And really, these people are lawyers, not psychologists, or doctors, isnt it a bit out of their field to decide what is mentally or physically painful?
April 30th, 2009 at 1:27 am.
Oh Phil,
I forgot to mention…
War Crimes Act of 1996
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c104:1:./temp/~c104F30zSJ::
… Doh! How silly of me, YES?
.
April 30th, 2009 at 1:30 amthe 1st 100 days 0f 2001 pre-9/11 Obamas 1st 100 days of 2009 – Bush & Co. is now flexing its bio-terror muscle going for pandemic 9/11
April 30th, 2009 at 1:36 am.
“It Plays Into the Hands of Al-Qaida”
Torture? It Probably Killed More Americans Than 9/11
By PATRICK COCKBURN
http://www.counterpunch.org/patrick04272009.html
That’s right Phil, keep believing that TORTURE works…
… But for whom?
AND NONE DARE CALL IT T-R-E-A-S-O-N!!!
.
April 30th, 2009 at 1:37 amRepublican Hater Says: “”As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion;”
Response: That statement is literally true. It is also true that the Government of the United States of America is founded on the principles of the Christian religion. There are thousands of quotes in more significant documents, correspondence, and speeches by our founders, but let’s agree to disagree for now. It is late.
April 30th, 2009 at 1:37 amPhilip50 Says:
Read your history, Repub hater. Even though the Republicans held the majority at the time, it was NOT a super-majority, and it was the Democrats in Congress that blocked their attempt to regulate Fannie and Freddie.
Actually the bill you’re referring to was to remove Fannie and Freddie from direct Congressional oversight and hand it over to a private body. Maybe that would have been better, maybe worse. But probably not. Still, that’s the fact of the matter.
.
Philip50 Says:
You guys want to blame de-regulation and the Republicans.
Sure. It’s been all Republicans whov’e been saying “deregulation, deregulation, deregulation” for over thirty years. You guys weren’t responsible for deregulation? Then you must have totally failed in your goals, as you defined them.
Remember when Reagan deregulated the S & L’s? Priceless. Man, that sure cost taxpayers a lot too.
.
Philip50 Says:
Plus the black congressional caucus, i.e. other dems, wanted to keep up the easy loans that were begun under Carter and expanded under Clinton. Do you want me to supply the links or do you want to look them up yourself?
Are you suggesting that minority homeownership is responsible for the Wall Street collapse? Please. You go ahead and supply those links.
.
Philip50 Says:
Ah…the Democrat Party…the party of tolerance.
We don’t tolerate the stupid. Sorry.
.
Philip50 Says:
What will it take? A nuke in New York harbor to convince you?
Scaring people =/= being right.
.
Philip50 Says:
Response: Are you saying that you don’t approve of Christians in the Democrat Party?
Actually, we’re the party of moral decency, so it’s a natural fit. We’re just somewhat suspicious about your claim that Jesus said Muslims would nuke New York.
OK, actually we find that hilarious…
.
Philip50 Says:
There should be mutual respect for that, and our opinions are simply that, our opinions.
Your opinion is that everything my country stands for should be dismantled and reversed. I cannot respect that. You are my enemy. I will do whatever I can to stop you.
April 30th, 2009 at 1:37 am@237 republicans hate facts
Heheh. The rethugs have been up to this a long long time it seems.
April 30th, 2009 at 1:40 am.
For the love of religion…
… TWISTED SERMONS.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdOHrl7zCBA
.
April 30th, 2009 at 1:41 am@240 Philip50 Says
It comes from scraps of wisdom from all over the place. I’t like a pyrmid of wisdom.
April 30th, 2009 at 1:42 amIt’s only ironic that religion is usually it’s own worst enemy.
April 30th, 2009 at 1:43 amMax: I have said it before, and I will say it again, I am against torture and it is illegal to torture. The documents you cite are compelling regarding waterboarding. Having said that, until we know more about the application of this practice, we should reserve final judgment. That is all I am saying, if anyone would listen. Many of you have your minds made up without all the facts. You may be right; you may be wrong. We shall see. In the meantime, IMO it is unreasonable to prejudge those involved in these tough decisions in tough times. It is especially unreasonable and unwise to attempt to criminalize government officials acting in good faith in attempting to carry out the what they believed to be the correct, though difficult course of action to protect our country.
April 30th, 2009 at 1:45 amIt is especially unreasonable and unwise to attempt to criminalize government officials acting in good faith in attempting to carry out the what they believed to be the correct
The laws are there already.
April 30th, 2009 at 1:47 amIt is especially unreasonable and unwise to attempt to criminalize government officials
Not criminalize but rather prosecute.
April 30th, 2009 at 1:50 amPhilip50,
So, it’s illegal until it suits it’s needs?
.
April 30th, 2009 at 1:50 amIt is unreasonable to attempt to criminalize government officials.
April 30th, 2009 at 1:50 amIt is unwise to attempt to criminalize government officials.
Huh?
April 30th, 2009 at 1:51 amOK then, why is it unwise to prosecute government officials?
I don’t think he was making a threat so it must be fear.
April 30th, 2009 at 2:00 amrhf,
Philip50 prefers to not look at the tragedy before him.
“Move along people. Nothing to see here.”
.
April 30th, 2009 at 2:02 amPhilip50 Says:
…until we know more about the application of this practice, we should reserve final judgment. That is all I am saying, if anyone would listen.
Fair enough. Let’s investigate. I am perfectly comfortable with going by the results of a nonpartisan investigation.
.
Philip50 Says:
IMO it is unreasonable to prejudge those involved in these tough decisions in tough times.
How “tough” the decisions and times are are irrelevant. We hire them to do a tough job. They’re either up to the task or they can step aside.
.
Philip50 Says:
It is especially unreasonable and unwise to attempt to criminalize government officials acting in good faith in attempting to carry out the what they believed to be the correct, though difficult course of action to protect our country.
God, could you sound any more pathetically desperate?
There’s a specific legal definition to the term “good faith.” It means that you didn’t know that what you thought was legal, was illegal. Torture is illegal. Always has been. This is so obvious it’s impossible not to have known that.
April 30th, 2009 at 2:03 am.
If it’s unwise from criminalizing criminal behavior when elected Officials do it, what then is it that stops elected Officials from becoming even bigger crooks? I mean, are there laws that apply to some? Or is it that only some laws apply?
… HA! A NATION OF LAWS, MY @SS!!!
Dear Philip50,
So, it’s not illegal when High Officials violate the Law?
What then, is a High Crime?
.
April 30th, 2009 at 2:06 amrhf,
But ya gotta admit, Philip sure would make a loyal citizen of some Theocratic State, say like…
… Iran?
.
April 30th, 2009 at 2:08 am@264 Max Anax junius -1 Says
Ya, whatever you’re exposed to for the first few years of life. That’s about it.
April 30th, 2009 at 2:10 am.
Q U E S T I O N:
IN GOOD FAITH requires intent to comply to the LAW.
Was Bybee attempting to comply to the law when he advised on how to violate the law, even just a little?
WHICH CAME FIRST…
… THE TORTURE OR THE MEMOS ATTEMPTING TO LEGALIZE TORTURE?
And that is where you will find that “FAITH”.
WHO DID JESUS TORTURE?
DIDN’T TORTURE KILL JESUS?
But wait,
PEOPLE DIED BECAUSE OF THIS “GOOD FAITH”.
EVEN THEN, DIDN’T THAT MEET BYBEE’S MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS FOR TORTURE?
THEN WHAT MADE THOSE VERY TACTICS, LEGAL, IF WHAT THEY DID WAS KILL?
.
April 30th, 2009 at 2:16 amThe legal question was and is difficult,” he said.
If you have someone in your total control, and you’re doing something to them for the purpose of getting them to cooperate in exchange for you stopping doing it, then what you’re doing is torture. Case closed. Not difficult.
April 30th, 2009 at 2:21 amWaterboarding has been recognized as a torture technique since the Spanish Inquisition.
But in 2009 Phil comes along, American Exceptionalism in hand, and says:
Hey, not so fast! I want more information before I believe that a Conservative Christian like me is a torturer!
What did the board look like?
What temperature was the water?
April 30th, 2009 at 2:26 amElBruce,
April 30th, 2009 at 2:31 amAnd don’t forget Cheney’s intent was to coerce a “confession”…
… False or otherwise.
@267ElBruce Says:
So torute is a sort of bloody style blackmail then?
Is that the problem davey?
April 30th, 2009 at 2:40 amI guess that’s why the police always say to cooperate with your captors.
April 30th, 2009 at 2:43 amApe-Man Says:
So torute is a sort of bloody style blackmail then?
The point is, if you list all of the known historical methods of torture, and I invent a new one, it’s still torture, even if it’s not on your list. Never mind the fact that Republicans don’t even have the imagination to invent one that hasn’t already been used repeatedly throughout both ancient and contemporary history.
By and large, torturers can be pretty inventive. Many times people have tried to define torture by listing the known methods, and many times others have gotten around those definitions by inventing new methods. That’s why there are so many inventive methods of torture throughout human history.
The methods are irrelevant. If you have someone in your total control, and you’re doing something to them for the purpose of getting them to cooperate in exchange for you stopping doing it, then whatever it is you’re doing, is torture.
You can’t invent a form of torture that gets around that definition.
April 30th, 2009 at 2:48 am.
April 30th, 2009 at 2:51 amEnough jabberin’! Send the marshalls to frogmarch him off to Gitmo!
.
I wonder what Obama thinks of Specter switches parties
April 30th, 2009 at 2:56 amHooding, sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation—it’s all torture. The intention is to break a person. How a country treats is prisoners is a measure of its civilization, and I would like for us to be civil.
Even if there was one or two terrorists in Guantanamo, the overwhelming majority of people we tortured had done nothing to violate the U.S. and were not plotting to do so. We kidnapped, imprisoned, and tortured people who had done nothing to us. We likely killed more than just a few in Guantanamo, Abu Graib, Bagram, and who knows where else? Ships. Other nations. Anywhere our laws would not apply. Some people might want the public to believe that the “terrorists” are so potent that our prisons can’t hold them. Really? Pish. They needed secrecy in order to get away with it.
Good God. It’s shameful that we have to have this conversation.
April 30th, 2009 at 3:08 am.
LEGAL STANDARDS APPLICABLE UNDER 18 U.S.C. §§ 2340-2340A
December 30, 2004
MEMORANDUM OPINION FOR THE DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL
DANIEL LEVIN
Acting Assistant Attorney General
Office of Legal Counsel
http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/18usc23402340a2.htm
.
April 30th, 2009 at 3:27 am@276 Max Anax junius -1 Says:
Well, looks like that puts an end to a huge number of arguments right there. Thanks Max!
April 30th, 2009 at 3:33 amRestoring the Rule of Law
This intolerable stain on the Constitution can only be removed by holding accountable those in the previous administration who designed, implemented & justified this secret policy of institutionalized torture.
Justice demands it.
Anything less betrays the oath every elected and appointed federal official swears to preserve, protect & defend the Constitution by complicity with the perpetrators.
April 30th, 2009 at 3:55 amjoin me in a round of song:
It’s murderous extortion byBee!!!
April 30th, 2009 at 4:08 amIt’s a crime of extreme violence byBee!!!
Do your duty for your country now byBee!!!
First you must resign beBee!!!
Wow, thanks for all the fascinating info, guys.
All I can add, is that the rest of the world is watching America closely on this, please don’t stuff it up.
April 30th, 2009 at 5:18 amOne looks in vain for any sign of zeal, fervor, or passion for justice in the heart of our new President. :(
Busload of Faith
April 30th, 2009 at 5:58 amobbama missed an important point, he needed to say “I believe we lost far more valuable information then we gained and we lost it because of those programs of torture”
and he needed to say allong with the “recruitment tool” he managed to get in there he missed the big point;
“those programs created more terrorist issues and events we have to address then anything that might have been prevented”
and he missed;
“when cheney had the nerve to say he acquired information what he neglected to say is we lost more information then he acquired with that program”
April 30th, 2009 at 7:02 amRemember back in the 1990’s when the republicans in the House & Senate (and across the nation) had their bibles stuck to their faces, crawled on their knees with their arms stretched to the sky, and yelling to the American people, “Blow jobs are sin! A criiiiiime has been committed!!!! Impeach the sinner!!!!! Glory be to gawd, hang him now!!!!”, but…
….today they’re fine with torture, lying about torture, and getting away with torture?
*kicking every republican in the gonads this morning*
April 30th, 2009 at 7:10 amOff topic:
Demand the resignation of Virginia Foxx of North Carolina who went on the floor of the House yesterday in front of Matthew Shepard’s mother and said that his death was a hoax, just a robbery, and had nothing to do with his sexuality at all!
Her office numbers:
Phone: (202) 225-2071 (DC office)
Phone: (336) 778-0211 (North Carolina)
Phone: (828) 265-0240 (North Carolina)
This morning all mailboxes are full, but please keep trying throughout the day. We cannot let this kind of hate & bigotry to be part of our government any longer!
Thank you.
April 30th, 2009 at 7:29 amKO gave Virginia Foxx the “Worst Person in the World” honor last night. Here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFAa5aet0CI
April 30th, 2009 at 7:31 amBless you KayInMaine!
I’ve been up all night about this one! She is pure evil! She can’t be allowed to live this down!
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For some reason the gibberish annoys me less than the Privacy Center did. Still do they really think people will follow those links?
April 30th, 2009 at 8:17 amThank you for calling! I just got through to the DC office and said, “Is Virginia Foxx a Disciple of Satan?”, and the woman who answered said, “Maim, that is not necessary”, and before I could say, “Are you kidding me? What I said is unnecessary while the Satan Disciple said yesterday that Shepard’s horrific murder was a hoax? Are you effing kidding me!!!!”…………she hung up on me. LOL And guess what? When I called back my call went directly to the FULL MAILBOX. LOL I guess Satan doesn’t like truth & criticism!
Keep calling today! Don’t give up!
April 30th, 2009 at 8:17 amKayInMaine Says:
Don’t worry! I won’t give up! I’ll write letters, emails, and scream from the rooftops if I must. I’ve not been this angry in a very long time!
April 30th, 2009 at 8:24 amIt is especially unreasonable and unwise to attempt to criminalize government officials acting in good faith in attempting to carry out the what they believed to be the correct, though difficult course of action to protect our country.
You should have your citizenship revoked for such outright, unabashed ignorance.
YOU EITHER ABIDE BY THE LAW, OR ARE PROSECUTED FOR BREAKING THE LAW.
THERE IS NO “GREY” AREAS, ONLY APOLOGISTS FCUKWIT IDIOTS, LIKE YOU.
April 30th, 2009 at 8:30 amI haven’t been this angry for awhile now too, Ladybastet! The nerve of the American Taliban to use a microphone on the floor of the House to spew their Satanic Verses!
I think it’s time to shrink the republic party to the point it’s small enough to drown in a bathtub (or tie it a fence, torture it and then leave it to die in the sun, you know, the light the American Taliban can’t stand!). Spit.
I don’t have a fax, but if you do, please write down in large letters:
VIRGINIA FOX IS A DISCIPLE OF SATAN! I DEMAND HER RESIGNATION OR AT THE VERY LEAST….SHE NEEDS TO APOLOGIZE TO MRS. SHEPARD IN PERSON! DOWN WITH SATAN! UP WITH PEACE!
Can someone do this for me? Please? Foxx’s fax numbers are:
Fax: (202) 225-2995
Fax: (336) 778-2290
Toll Free: 1(866) 677-8968
Fax: (828) 265-0390
Thank you! ;-)
Okay, going to work pissed off once again at the republic party and their stupid, heinous, bigoted, hateful, racist Pigs.
April 30th, 2009 at 8:32 am‘Legal Rationales’ For Torture Memos Were ‘A Mistake’”
Amen to that.
I’ll take the opinion of a legal scholar over the dry-drunk ramblings of a retarded Shrub ANY DAY.
April 30th, 2009 at 8:33 amAccording to Merriam-Webster the word “mistake” means:
1. to blunder in the choice of
2. To misunderstand the meaning or intention of or misinterpret, or the wrong judgment of the character or ability of
3. To indentify wrongly.
If I rob a bank, but I am successful in that I am given a free pass from prosecution and I get to keep the money, was that really a mistake on my part for robbing the bank?
If a criminal administration wants me to write memos that try to make international war crimes sound legal, and I happen to be an attorney thought competent enough to hold a lifetime judge’s position, at which point is my writing of memos a “mistake”?
Let’s look at the definition of “blunder”
According to Merriam-Webster, a blunder mean to make a mistake through stupidity, ignorance or carelessness.
Does anyone think that Bybee was so stupid or ignorant that he didn’t realize that he was trying to make war crimes sound legal?
This was not a “mistake” or “bad policy” These were intentional crimes, and as we have found out, they had absolutely nothing to do with fighting terrorists or keeping America safe.
Obama needs to stop euphemizing criminal behavior, because he wants to protect fellow multi-national investment class elitists from prosecution.
April 30th, 2009 at 8:39 amkayinmaine, love your 283!
April 30th, 2009 at 8:39 amthe republican argument is that of an 8th grader.
petty & juvenile.
and that’s just covering the republicans elected.
the followers of this special ed class are just spectacles to behold, something to be studied in sociology class.
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Philip50,
I didn’t read all 298 posts, but—-you say this country was founded on Christian principles AND you are pro-torture. Don’t you see the contradiction? And torture does not give you the desired results. Reality is not like “24″. American historians have known this since at least WWII.
There was no good intelligence obtained by torture. When someone from the Bush administration says there was—they are lying. You know how you can tell? Cause their lips are moving!
The Red Cross and the Pentagon agree there were about 110 deaths in prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan. And they both agree that about 90% of the thousands in those prisons were innocent and later released. About 15 prisons were using the SAME tactics. This tells you it came from the top and were not “a few bad apples”.
April 30th, 2009 at 9:37 amThe republican argument is that of an 8th grader . . . petty & juvenile . . . and that’s just covering the republicans elected . . . the followers of this special ed class are just spectacles to behold, something to be studied in sociology class.
Well, my wife teaches a class of 8th grade special ed kids. Exhausting work, but she gets them to read close to grade and enjoy their science experiments, while showing them how to behave like grown ups–as she and I understand the concept.
This past week, a young lady who’d been kept out of regular classes for misbehaving . . . actually, for being turned into a basket case by abusive parents and bad foster homes . . . got sent back into the 8th grade special ed class.
Teacher and aide treated her like any other student, welcomed her to class, etc. She denounced them, declared that they couldn’t make her do anything she didn’t want to, that she wasn’t going to learn anything or do any homework, and that she would come and go as she pleased. They spent the morning trying to work with or and around her while quietly filing a request to get her checked out by counseling. Meanwhile, she deliberately bumped into someone in the hall and tried to pick a fight with them. No one was sure if she was sincere or just showing the school how tough she was.
Later that day, after fuming and snarling for a few hours, she stood up in the middle of class, walked to the back of the room, and started yelling at another young lady for an alleged slight–mentioning her name in public, I think.
The 8th grade special ed kid being screamed at, as she’d been taught, did not take the baiting. She sat in her chair, stayed calm, and refused to fight back, while teacher and aide stepped in, tried to calm things down.
The got the privilege of being reviled for a few minutes at spitting range, until someone from the office arrived with the right form and got the damaged person out of the room.
Lots and lots of damaged people in this country. Some learn to behave in special ed, some get through school without learning much of anything.
Anyhow, I see her running for congress some day.
April 30th, 2009 at 10:54 amThe fact is Bybee’s legal arguments were a bad joke. He wasn’t offering good faith analysis, he was creating Cover Your Ass excuses. Bybee justified illegal torture by unreasonably twisting the law. He’s as guilty as any mob lawyer and deserves whatever punishment he gets.
For a definitive takedown of Bybee’s twisting of the law go read law Professor David Luban’s article here:
http://www.virginialawreview.org/content/pdfs/91/1425.pdf
April 30th, 2009 at 1:39 pmLooks like the html didn’t get posted: it goes something ilke this
virginialawreview.org/articles.php?article=77
April 30th, 2009 at 1:40 pmMidland Says:
Lots and lots of damaged people in this country.
Yeah, but the last thing we need is them forming their own political party, aka the GOP.
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