Priest: The Post Doesn’t Call Waterboarding ‘Torture’ Because ‘The Bush Administration Would Dispute That’
Priest: The Post Doesn’t Call Waterboarding ‘Torture’ Because ‘The Bush Administration Would Dispute That’
Last week, Washington Post reporter Paul Kane was asked in an online chat why his newspaper calls the Bush administration’s terror detainee questioning methods “harsh interrogation” instead of “torture.” “Aren’t you guys continuing to catapult Bush-era propaganda when you use such NewSpeak euphemisms for what we all (finally) know was clearly torture?” the questioner asked. Not so, Kane went on to explain:
KANE: You can’t call someone a convicted murderer until he/she has actually been convicted. Understand? Get it? The reason we say “alleged” murder and things like that is for our own legal protection. So we can’t be sued for libel.
Yesterday, during a chat with the Post’s Dana Priest, a questioner revisited the issue, specifically asking why the paper doesn’t call waterboarding “torture.” This time however, the questioner received a different (and somewhat shocking) answer. According to Priest, the Post doesn’t call waterboarding “torture” because the Bush administration doesn’t:
Q: If they are going to follow the analogy on reporting other criminal issues, why wouldn’t reporters use the term “alleged torture” or “accused of torture”? Waterboarding is torture, no one disputes it. To substitute “harsh interrogation techniques’ with regard to waterboarding is like saying “manslaughter” when the charge is “murder.”
PRIEST: Not true. The Bush administration would dispute that waterboarding is torture. That’s what the memos are all about. Torture is a crime. There is not a lot of case history to define torture.
Let’s be clear, as the questioner noted, waterboarding is torture and torture is a crime under U.S. law (as Priest acknowledged). Prominent Republicans and Democrats — from Sens. John McCain (R-AZ) and Lindsey Graham (R-SC) to President Obama and Attorney General Eric Holder — all agree. In fact, the United States “convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war” after World War II.
The Bush administration (even President Bush himself) admitted that it had authorized waterboarding on three terror suspect detainees, and the Bush-era Office of Legal Counsel memos released earlier this month confirm it.
Note to The Washington Post: The reason many former Bush administration officials who were involved in authorizing waterboarding don’t call it “torture” is because they would be admitting to a crime punishable with long prison sentences. Presumably, they make this argument because the do not want to go to jail.
As Media Matters’ Jamison Foser noted of Kane’s “libel” arguement, “So who does the Post think is going to sue them for libel if they refer to torture as ‘torture’? It doesn’t seem like there is a long line of people who participated in harsh interrogations torture who are eager to litigate their conduct, but maybe I’m wrong.”
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(1) The “Bush Administration” no longer exists. It would be useful if someone from the Washington Post got that memo.
(2) The US has prosecuted water boarding as a war crime because it is recognized as an act of torture. Refusing to call it torture because he who committed the act is akin to refusing to call killing someone homicide because the killer objected.
May 1st, 2009 at 12:28 pmOne salient point: “torture” (”is/is not”) has become a distractive Bright Shiny Thing, a red herring.
Read the statutes, 18.USC.2340, 18.USC.2441. Read Common Article 3, etc. They proscribe “torture” and other forms of abuse/degrading acts — even threats of them.
Having lost the jus cogens / peremptory norm moral argument, torture apologists then descend to the “definition-of-’IS’” “torture/not torture” rhetorical parsing (e.g., Bybee et al). Having lost that argument by a mile, they descend further yet to the empirically problematic “efficacy” argument. When they lose on that count, it’s time to in desperation pull out the last resort” Ticking Time Bomb” canard. Out of logical arguments, they become the Black Knight at the stream crossing in “Holy Grail.”
Let’s keep our eyes n the prize.
May 1st, 2009 at 12:30 pmNice to know that there’s another ‘news’ organization out there that still abides by the Bushco party line…. now Fox doesn’t have to feel as lonely….
May 1st, 2009 at 12:30 pmThe Bush administration is out of power.
May 1st, 2009 at 12:31 pmDana Perino & Dana Priest: Two of a kind.
May 1st, 2009 at 12:32 pmKANE: You can’t call someone a convicted murderer until he/she has actually been convicted. Understand? Get it? The reason we say “alleged” murder and things like that is for our own legal protection. So we can’t be sued for libel.
Absolute unnecessary circuitous hogwash! The subject is a characterization, which I would call: apt, rather than it being an indictment. The libel argument does not apply in the least. The application is not an indictment!
Is there a policy at the Washington Post to extend the megaphone of the policies of the 43rd, 1600-Penn?
-James Saville Row
May 1st, 2009 at 12:34 pmhttp://publisher.amplecare.com
Alternate-world headline from 1972: “Washington Post Doesn’t call Watergate ‘Burglary’ Because ‘The Nixon Administration Would Dispute That.’”
May 1st, 2009 at 12:36 pmThis is such a good damn point:
Let’s be clear, as the questioner noted, waterboarding is torture and torture is a crime under U.S. law … The Bush administration (even President Bush himself) admitted that it had authorized waterboarding on three terror suspect detainees, and the Bush-era Office of Legal Counsel memos released earlier this month confirm it.
What more does any news organization need??? Call it torture.
May 1st, 2009 at 12:37 pm1. SanaLBurda Says:
Flagged.
May 1st, 2009 at 12:40 pmDid Dana Priest miss the election?
Seriously, even if she didn’t — who gives a shit if ANY administration would “dispute” anything?
May 1st, 2009 at 12:41 pmI think I’m with the Post on this.
You write:
Note to The Washington Post: The reason many former Bush administration officials who were involved in authorizing waterboarding don’t call it “torture” is because they would be admitting to a crime punishable with long prison sentences. Presumably, they make this argument because the do not want to go to jail.
Yes, and the “only reason” OJ Simpson said he didn’t do it is because he would be admitting to double murder.
But newspapers as far as I know followed the convention of saying “allegedly” with regard to OJ, even though to many people it was self-evident he did it and his denials were self-serving.
May 1st, 2009 at 12:44 pm.
Dear WaPo,
And the memos were legal, too?
.
May 1st, 2009 at 12:49 pmThis is also the reason why the recent Gallup poll only had 51% of the people who think we should investigate and prosecute the Bush Administration. They asked the question using “enhanced interrogation techniques” rather than using the word “torture”. I would like to see how the poll would change if they actually used the word “torture”.
May 1st, 2009 at 12:52 pmNo, your honor, I did not stab him, I simply hit him with the sharp edge of a knife!
May 1st, 2009 at 12:52 pmThey don’t want to be sued for libel? That’s a patently ridiculous justification.
In a libel or slander lawsuit, the burden of proof is on the plaintiff, i.e., the one complaining that they’ve been libeled or slandered must prove that what was said or printed about them was false.
I’d love to see the “Bush Administration” (whoever that is…) sue the WaPo for libel and then have to try to prove that their torture techniques actually weren’t torture. That’s obviously a battle that nobody in the “Bush Administration” wants to initiate, since it can only end in criminal prosecutions for them…
Fear of a lawsuit can’t be the actual reason the WaPo doesn’t use the term “torture” — that’s clearly an unfounded fear since the consequences of airing this stuff out would obviously be much, much higher for BushCo than for WaPo. I’m sure WaPo’s 1st amendment lawyers are better than this, hiding behind fear of a libel lawsuit as a justification for not using the term “torture”… So, it must be something else…hmmmmmm…
May 1st, 2009 at 12:53 pm.
Dear T.P.
SanaLBurda is a constant spammer.
Your site is being used for free ad space.
The links go directly to a foreign website.
This has been the same person for months now.
.
May 1st, 2009 at 12:53 pmYou would then be validating his argument as a point of law… and then we would have a continuance and another continuance…
Address his argument avoids dragging it into court thereby invalidating his argument.
Understand now?
May 1st, 2009 at 12:53 pmCarlos Says:
But newspapers as far as I know followed the convention of saying “allegedly” with regard to OJ, even though to many people it was self-evident he did it and his denials were self-serving.
Then in order to be true to their beliefs they should call it “alleged torture” rather than “enhanced interrogation techniques”. They are calling it something entirely different. If I wasn’t current on all the issues surrounding torture, I would think that “enhanced interrogation techniques” just mean they do something longer or a little harder. I would not in any way equate “enhanced interrogation techniques” with “torture”.
May 1st, 2009 at 12:54 pmThe alleged bush administration should be held accountable for it’s alleged actions.
May 1st, 2009 at 12:57 pmThere is no question it is torture and the Post should stop being using Orwellianisms.
Why does everyone say “we prosecuted Japanese for waterboarding”, but almost noone will say “we hung Japanese for waterboarding”? Paul Begala did say it on CNN the other day. Crooks and Liars said he was wrong, but they later had to apologize. He was correct.
Zooster, I believe Dana Priest was a “he” the last I looked. :) And why is Ben Armbruster allowed to say an@logy, but I can’t?
May 1st, 2009 at 12:58 pmCarlos Says:
Yes, and the “only reason” OJ Simpson said he didn’t do it is because he would be admitting to double murder.
But newspapers as far as I know followed the convention of saying “allegedly” with regard to OJ, even though to many people it was self-evident he did it and his denials were self-serving.
May 1st, 2009 at 12:44 pm
___________
This analogy doesn’t quite fit. In order to make this analogy correct, Simpson would have to have first tried to redefine double murder with a more sterile-sounding term: enhanced knifery, aggressive laceration, arterial liberation, that sort of thing.
Second, Simpson would have to have been a government entity. By definition, one cannot libel the government, whereas you can libel a private citizen by accusing him or her of wrongdoing. The use of “alleged” is appropriate in Simpson’s case. The use of “enhanced interrogation” is inappropriate in the Bush Administration’s case.
May 1st, 2009 at 1:00 pmKeith: Dana Priest of the WaPo is a “she” — it’s Dana Millbank of WaPo that’s a “he”…
May 1st, 2009 at 1:00 pm.
Rice may have admitted to conspiracy, former Nixon counsel says
By David Edwards and John Byrne
Published: May 1, 2009
http://rawstory.com/08/blog/2009/05/01/john-dean-rice-may-have-admitted-to-conspiracy/
She’s admitted her role on tape…
… There is no allegation being made when she admits to conspiracy to commit a crime.
.
May 1st, 2009 at 1:01 pmThe Ctenocephalides Dogfather Says:
Keith: Dana Priest of the WaPo is a “she” — it’s Dana Millbank of WaPo that’s a “he”…
Ooops, sorry Zooster. My bad.
May 1st, 2009 at 1:03 pmKeith Says:
Why does everyone say “we prosecuted Japanese for waterboarding”, but almost noone will say “we hung Japanese for waterboarding”?
May 1st, 2009 at 12:58 pm
____________
Is it true? From what I’ve read, we executed Japanese officers for other crimes, but I have not so far read anything about Japanese soldiers or officers being executed solely for waterboarding. If you have some information you could link me to, I’d appreciate it.
May 1st, 2009 at 1:03 pmtoaster, here you go:
http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/correction-we-actually-did-execute-j
May 1st, 2009 at 1:05 pmI agree. The Post should not just adopt Bush terminology unquestioningly. That would be like saying “innocent non-murderer OJ Simpson”.
But I don’t think the Post is doing that, at least there’s nothing in this online chat that suggests they are.
May 1st, 2009 at 1:08 pmtoasterhead,
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-begala/yes-inational-reviewi-we_b_191153.html
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2007/dec/18/john-mccain/history-supports-mccains-stance-on-waterboarding/
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/598496/Tokyo-Trials
http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/nuremberg/tokyo.htm
.
May 1st, 2009 at 1:10 pmRegardless, the FACT IS the Bush Administration TORTURED. There is no ‘alleged’ since the Bybee memos PROVE BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT that they TORTURED and tried like hell to get around that fact by manipulating legal language and calling it ‘enhanced interrogations’.
May 1st, 2009 at 1:13 pm.
Q U E S T I O N:
Which came first…
… The TORTURE or the MEMOS?
.
May 1st, 2009 at 1:15 pm“I would also hope that he would not want to be associated with a technique which was invented in the Spanish Inquisition, was used by Pol Pot in one of the great eras of genocide in history and is being used on Burmese monks as we speak,” the Arizona senator said. “America is a better nation than that.”—–John McCain
May 1st, 2009 at 1:16 pmWho thinks the Post is worth the paper it’s printed on? Since the late 90’s they have “snarky” and establishment journalism down pat. Just wait until that tired old prune Sally Quinn starts dissin on the First Lady. David Broder’s article on prosecuting the Bushies was the work of a butler trying to say it didn’t matter who impregnated and then later murdered the housekeeper. It’s time to move forward…It’s time to move forward…It’s time to move forward… Repeat until murder sounds like grand theft auto.
May 1st, 2009 at 1:16 pmKeith Says:
toaster, here you go:
http://crooksandliars.com/ david-neiwert/ correction-we-actually-did-execute-j
May 1st, 2009 at 1:05 pm
————
Max Anax junius -1 Says:
toasterhead,
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ paul-begala/ yes-inational-reviewi-we_b_191153.html
May 1st, 2009 at 1:10 pm
_____________
Clicked and bookmarked – thank you very much!
May 1st, 2009 at 1:17 pmMan I’m starting to hate your country!!!!! Get these F***en idiots into court.
TORTURE IS TORTURE….AND YOU (THE US)HAVE COMMITTED CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY. SO OWN UP TO THEM. ARREST THOSE INVOLVED REGARDLESS OF THERE STATUS OR POSITION!!!
THE WORLD AWAITS ….ARE YOU FOR LAW AND ORDER OR ARE YOU ANOTHER FASCIST (NEO CON + CORP + MEDIA)NATION HIDING UNDER THE FLAG CLAIMING ALL RIGHTESSNESS???
The EU will not allow Serbia to participate in the EU unless it hands over it’s war criminals from the balken war of 93. Two have been caught and remains. How many has the US arrested????? NONE…….THE WORLD IS WAITING!
May 1st, 2009 at 1:17 pmtoaster,
I especially like http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2007/dec/18/john-mccain/history-supports-mccains-stance-on-waterboarding/
By McAgry’s own words…
… And yet, he refuses to act.
.
May 1st, 2009 at 1:20 pmMax Anax junius -1 Says:
————————————————————
Rice may have admitted to conspiracy, former Nixon counsel says . . .
______________________________________
Did anyone else notice how defensive she was and how her mouth was dry as she was trying to provide the answer? You know, the kind of “fright” one gets when they know they have done something horrible, your breathing catches and your lips twitch, but you are trying to get around or out of it by answering/justifying it. It was quite apparent.
May 1st, 2009 at 1:20 pmRice did admit to conspiracy….Bush authorized the torture….carried out! Enough said.
Who has the balls to arrest????? What are we waiting for?????
May 1st, 2009 at 1:23 pmIt’s only sadistic torture if a Democrat did it.
When Repukes do it, it is just a college prank.
Fcuk the Republicans
May 1st, 2009 at 1:24 pm.
Home of the brave my @ss…
… More like a Nation of cowards, if you ask me.
.
May 1st, 2009 at 1:26 pmBobbyG said:
And the media report: “Arthur and the Black Knight fought to a draw yesterday, as Arthur repeatedly declined the Black Knight’s challenge to continue their duel…”
May 1st, 2009 at 1:26 pmAs paleolib mentioned above, there is no such thing as “The Bush Administration” any more…get over it. AND, send a second copy of the memo to the editorial board to that effect.
Of all the folks one would have thought you would never hear those words from is Dana Priest…scary…Has she been on a long vacation and missed the last 4 months ???
If WaPo doesn’t get the memo soon, they’ll go out of business just like Rupert’s ploys..Yikes have they lost their way….
May 1st, 2009 at 1:29 pmDidn’t the US Army Field manual, Geneva Conventions and the rest of the civilized world already figure this one out for the lame brains at WaPo?
May 1st, 2009 at 1:35 pmMight as well link to the original, if you’re gonna link:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/29/politics/main3554687.shtml
McCain: Japanese Hanged For Waterboarding
GOP Candidate Says There Should Be “Little Doubt” It Is Torture
ST. PETERSBURG, Fla., Nov. 29, 2007
May 1st, 2009 at 1:49 pmredstatelefty Says:
And the media report: “Arthur and the Black Knight fought to a draw yesterday, as Arthur repeatedly declined the Black Knight’s challenge to continue their duel…”
More like “Black Knight wins victory by forfeit…”
May 1st, 2009 at 1:56 pmWith all of this talk about torture or enhanced interrogations or …, and obama saying that those that actually did the deed will not be prosecuted (and, at least implying that the writers of the memos shouldn’t be, but maybe he’ll think about it) what about the small potatoes that have been prosecuted and convicted – Lynde England, etc.? Shouldn’t they have pardons to wipe this from their records? Why should they be called “bad apples” and left holding the bag for the big kids?
May 1st, 2009 at 2:02 pmThe de-evolution of the Post, particularly its editorial stance, since the Watergate days has been tragic. Nearly forty years of right-wing “liberal” bashing has cowed a once brave paper. However, the stewarjt’s comment equating “Dana Perino & Dana Priest: Two of a kind.” is a misguided “kill the messenger” kind of statement. Dana Priest broke the “black sites” story … remember.
The problem here is that the Post is qualifying the crime not the “alleged” criminal.
Ever watch CSI? Once the crime lab reports back the facts, the fact of a crime is established. It’s murder. What remains is to find out who did it.
With the torture events, the Red Cross – the administrator of the Geneva Conventions – reported that torture was committed. The memos, the victims’ testimony, the eye witness accounts, the public testimony – torture was committed. No euphemisms need apply. The crime is established.
What remains is Dick Cheney, “alleged” war criminal, Condi Rice, “alleged” war criminal, Jay Bybee, “alleged” war criminal, Alberto Gonzales, “alleged” war criminal, Donald Rumsfeld, “alleged” war criminal, George W. Bush, “alleged” war criminal, and on and on.
The definition of the crime is not open to allegation. At this point, the definition of the criminal is. But, only just.
May 1st, 2009 at 2:05 pmWell, baby, baby, baby,
May 1st, 2009 at 2:18 pmI’ve got news for you–
Your story don’t ring true!
That is one of the stupidest comments I have ever heard. Is Dana Priest the guy who used to be on Countdown w/Keith?
May 1st, 2009 at 2:24 pmWaterboarding was invented as a torture technique. There is no other use for it.
Enhanced Interrogation is possibly coming up with better questions to ask.
May 1st, 2009 at 2:25 pmI have noticed this trend. They are intentionally confusing “innocent until proven guilty” with accurately describing the charges. The problem is, the Bush admin has admitted doing these things, so if they call them torture, it’s tantamount to having confessed to a crime. The problem for the Bush admin is that the legal history indicates that these procedures *are* torture, so they really shouldn’t have a leg to stand on, much like many of their victims, I allege.
J
May 1st, 2009 at 2:30 pmGood point, SmokinJay–It would be as if the WaPo reported that OJ Simpson was charged with Enhanced Domestic Disturbance.
May 1st, 2009 at 2:35 pmI was the questioner yesterday, and I posed it to Dana Priest because I thought I could get a reasonable answer. In the past, she has been protective of the spooks, but I’ve never seen her defend the Bush administration like this. It was a surprise and a disappointment.
May 1st, 2009 at 2:44 pmWhat a load of crap. It has been torture since the Spanish Inquisition. It has been torture since after WW2. It has been torture since after the Korean war. And all this phony pseudo argument is just that. Phony.
Throwing dust in the eyes of all those years when we knew what torture was. It still is. If it were legal, then Bush leaving office would not have destroyed all those memos of practices he had instituted. That was done days before he left. He would not have changed the laws to protect the illegal act of torture. We all know what it is. We and most of the world signed treaties. We signed the Geneva Convention treaty. We prosecuted and put to death people for the same acts and worse during the Nuremberg trials. The hypocrisy of it all. These seven or eight soldiers that are in prison for doing what they were told. And the people that told them are still out and seemingly untouchable. They are all guilty. The ones that ordered and the ones that did the deeds.
Now all of the sudden we have collective amnesia about torture. We are now trying to wash away the inhumanity of torturing another human being. Would someone like to see or hear the films of children being raped and sodomized to get their parents to talk? Those are in existence as reported.
Done in our name. Moral cowards criminals, just part of the Bush crime family.
May 1st, 2009 at 3:02 pmFace it, America, we tortured. The evidence is there. We violated our most basic beliefs out of fear.
Now it is time to own up to it and make amends. Investigate and prosecute. Yes, we get a black eye but we deserve it.
We want our principles and law back.
May 1st, 2009 at 3:12 pmsesli sohbet sesli chat
May 2nd, 2009 at 12:42 amThere’s the reason the mainstream media sucks now. They are more scared of being sued than challenging those in power. Besides, don’t they still have these people called “lawyers” who can guide them as to what is actually libel?
And, as a few have already commented, a) the Bush administration is GONE, and b) Kane said it- just use “allegedly” and you’re covered.
May 2nd, 2009 at 1:08 amHelen Rainier Says:
That is one of the stupidest comments I have ever heard. Is Dana Priest the guy who used to be on Countdown w/Keith?
No, I made that mistake, too. That was Dana Millbank. Dana Priest is a ’she’ noted for exposing “black sites” for prisoners.
May 2nd, 2009 at 4:09 amUosdwis Says:
And, as a few have already commented, a) the Bush administration is GONE, and b) Kane said it- just use “allegedly” and you’re covered.
The Bush administration is allegedly GONE!
I kinda like that… provided we pile it on with repetition like they used to.
.
Hoodathunktick Says:
Face it, America, we tortured. The evidence is there.
Well, we waterboarded. The evidence proves that. Waterboarding is torture. Vast legal and historical precedent proves that. Put together, all that we know so far is that a) we waterboarded and b) waterboarding is torture. But saying that we tortured? “Witch hunt! Witch hunt!”
May 2nd, 2009 at 5:27 amNot a lot of case history to prove that waterboarding is or is not torture? Gee, now why is that? Oh wait! I know! BECAUSE AMERICANS DID NOT WATERBOARD/TORTURE ANYONE FOR DECADES UNTIL THE BUSH PIGS CAME TO OFFICE!
May 2nd, 2009 at 9:05 amI THANK Sesli Sohbet
May 2nd, 2009 at 12:25 pmSesli Chat
SesliSohbet
SesliChat
sesli ve görüntülü chat
sesli ve görüntülü sohbet
We should be waterboading terrorists on a routine basis. It works better than executing, as in the case of the recent pirate fiasco. Obama thinks killing three people to save one captain is ok, but pouring water one persons face to ascertain information that can save thousands of lives is “cruel and unusual” punishment. We should not be apologizing to our enemies. They will not respect the U.S. either way. Why do liberal fools think that appeasement is that way to world peace?
May 3rd, 2009 at 10:00 pmIt would be interesting to see what results we would get if wwe waterboarded the JACKASS in the above post.
May 4th, 2009 at 2:21 pmHow about something along the lines of “behavior formerly known as torture” or “process formerly known as torture” or “actions formerly known as torture?” It wouldn’t be any more awkward than “enhanced interrogation techniques.”
There was an Englishman whose name I forget who said that while all conservatives are not stupid, most stupid people are conservatives. I was reminded of that by #62’s statement that torture works better than execution. Works better for what? Every actual successful interrogator has shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that torture doesn’t do any good at all if you want information, especially compared with what were formerly routine procedures. All you get from torture is whatever you want the victim to say. That gives you lots of false leads to track down at some expense while the truth lies hidden, especially if it is something the interrogators were not willing to believe.
When you think that the techniques used were designed by the North Koreans with the purpose of eliciting false confessions, you have to wonder at the thought processes or mental acuity of people who consider them to elicit accurate intelligence.
May 5th, 2009 at 3:23 pm