O’Donnell: ‘Senior Democrats’ might investigate ‘false statements’ to Congress about torture.
O’Donnell: ‘Senior Democrats’ might investigate ‘false statements’ to Congress about torture.
On The Chris Matthews Show today, NBC News Capitol Hill correspondent Kelly O’Donnell reported that congressional Democrats were considering “a different way to go at accountability of the so-called torture memos.” “Senior Democrats have told me that they might look at the possibility of were there false statements made to Congress,” said O’Donnell:
O’DONNELL: Senior Democrats have told me that they might look at the possibility of were there false statements made to Congress, was there any perjury, when some of the people involved in policy and legal parts of all of that appeared before Congress a few years ago. Now things have been declassified, compare them and see, is there anything there. A different way to go at accountability of the so-called torture memos.
Watch it:
Though O’Donnell reports that some “senior Democrats” are seeking “a different approach” to investigating the Bush administration’s torture policies, at least one top Democrat is still pushing for a truth commission. In a Boston Globe op-ed today, Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Patrick Leahy (D-VT) writes, “I still believe my proposal for a Commission of Inquiry remains the best way to move forward with a comprehensive, nonpartisan, independent review of what happened.”
Transcript:
MATTHEWS: Kelly?O’DONNELL: A different approach to the concern about accountability with those interrogation memos. Senior Democrats have told me that they might look at the possibility of were there false statements made to Congress, was there any perjury, when some of the people involved in policy and legal parts of all of that appeared before Congress a few years ago. Now things have been declassified, compare them and see, is there anything there. A different way to go at accountability of the so-called torture memos.
MATTHEWS: And there could be prosecutions then.
O’DONNELL: Well, it’s a crime to give a false statement to Congress.
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I wonder if MATTHEWS…got a tingly feeling in his leg again?
May 3rd, 2009 at 11:16 amThe quickest way to lose my vote is to let the torturers get away with their crimes.
Imagine the outcry if the Dems engaged in tortured.
May 3rd, 2009 at 11:17 amLetter From Washington Nothing but the Truth on Torture
New York Times – ?48 minutes ago?
By ALBERT R. HUNT WASHINGTON – Alberto Mora says it’s “politically unthinkable” to criminally prosecute the top Bush administration officials who sanctioned torture.
Torture memos and the Bush administration: Time to move on The Star-Ledger – NJ.com
Critics Attack Obama’s Defense of Torture Ban FOXNews
Boston Globe – Columbus Ledger-Enquirer – Wall Street Journal – The Swamp – Tribune’s Washington Bureau
all 1,034 news articles »
http://news.google.com/news?pz=1&ncl=1344337850&topic=n
fox seems to like the ‘critics’ label…
May 3rd, 2009 at 11:22 am“the so-called torture memos.”
“So-called”? They ARE torture memos!
May 3rd, 2009 at 11:22 amWhile the Republicans don’t think enough (see Clinton Impeachment over oral sex), some times the Democrats think too much.
This one should be a no-brainer. No need for alternative anything. Stop over-thinking it and do your damn jobs!
May 3rd, 2009 at 11:30 amQ: Mr. President, in your speeches now you rarely talk or mention Osama bin Laden. Why is that?….
PRESIDENT: So I don’t know where he is. You know, I just don’t spend that much time on him, Kelly, to be honest with you…
THAT kelly?
May 3rd, 2009 at 11:30 amThis will lead nowhere.
Any false statements likely were immunized before they even sat down.
May 3rd, 2009 at 11:37 amConservativeForProgress Says:
Maybe they should hold these witch trials in Salem, MASS.
Bill Clinton thinks your ironic ignorance is truly staggering.
May 3rd, 2009 at 11:39 amSenior Democrats? Which senior Democrats? I think someone needs to cite her sources.
This “different way” of going about investigating torture is by trying to determine if someone made “false statements” to congress? What the heck is that supposed to mean?
Who is she saying has made “false statements”? What were those false statements? I would assume that if you lied to congress you could be punished for perjury, but that is not accountability for torture. That would be accountability for contempt of Congress.
Accountability for the “so called” torture memos would be, you know, an investigation, followed by a bunch of trials, followed by sentencing. That’s accountability American style.
May 3rd, 2009 at 11:42 amO’DONNELL: Well, it’s a crime to give a false statement to Congress.
It’s also a crime to wiretap Americans. And to torture prisoners. Wake me when the charade is over.
May 3rd, 2009 at 11:44 am“Maybe they should hold these witch trials in Salem, MASS.”
CFP, so you don’t think that war crimes should be investigated? You do realize that we’d be calling for investigations even if it had been a Democrat who ordered the circumvention of our laws, right?
I’d be interested in knowing just what kind of ‘progress’ you’re ‘for’.
May 3rd, 2009 at 11:49 amAs many of you feel, I don’t want just another commission to recommend anything – I want the truth and I want all those found guilty to be held accountable. I don’t believe there is anything wrong with wanting truth, but it must have accountability and responsibility along with it.
May 3rd, 2009 at 11:52 amThey are, as predicted, parsing and dissembling this issue to death.
Bush was functionally sociopathic and everyone knows it, however much we try to dance around it in ‘polite politics.’
Bush tortured. Bush lied. Prosecute his entire administration.
Bush acceded to the wishes of the fictional construct of a corporation; nothing more than the gathering of a small group of rich men who want to make more money. By any means necessary and with enough distance that their direct involvement is indeterminate, but the results are dutifully orchestrated.
Until and unless the government follows the money, exposes the internal communications (they spy on us readily and freely enough, why the disparity for illegal conduct in the government?) and conducts a thorough and openly independent investigation, we have no government; just a loose collection of corruptible old men who prop up a facade of democracy while the viscera rots.
Then talk it to death some more to show our ‘concern.’
Bush tortured. We get hyper-analysis from a compliant and misdirecting media dedicated to following the dictum of those old men and introducing such pseudo-intellectual minutiae; recycling the very arguments and fears that were pointedly and, with prejudice, rejected at Nuremberg, but have found new support amongst the prostituting pundit class.
Conservatives will not recognize a reality that understands their absolute moral capitulation to a profit-based fictional construct: the corporation. Money will always provide them with the moral milepost around which they base entire regimes, laws and authority throughout history.
As long as we remain beholden to that standard, we will never know, will never investigate, will never be a decent, free country.
May 3rd, 2009 at 11:58 amExactly, Guido. They can’t have it both ways.
May 3rd, 2009 at 11:58 amMaybe they should hold these witch trials in Salem, MASS
May 3rd, 2009 at 11:58 am–
I thought the blowjob stuff should have been held there. I’ll bring the ergot…Check out a book called “A Mind of Its Own – A Cultural History of the P enis”
I don’t care how the Democrats achieve going after the Bush Regime on torture. I just want them to!
May 3rd, 2009 at 12:22 pmI notice that, now that Specter(D) is the senior Senator on the Judiciary Committee, Leahy has found himself a pair.
That’s great, Pat, but where were they before Tuesday? Now that you’ve found them, use them!
PEACE
May 3rd, 2009 at 12:25 pmKayInMaine Says:
I don’t care how the Democrats achieve going after the Bush Regime on torture. I just want them to!
…and that is all that you liberals care about really…payback to President Bush because you’re hero couldn’t keep his pants on when he had his perverted sex with a young intern…and he was impeached for it! If he had been one of these CEO’s that B.O. is forcing out of their jobs…he would have been fired immediately.
May 3rd, 2009 at 12:39 pm20. RealityCheck Says: payback to President Bush because you’re hero couldn’t keep his pants on when he had his perverted sex with a young intern.
Yes, repaying impeachment over a blowjob by investigating and exposing torture, humiliating and excruciating death, abuse and illegal detainment of innocent people, including children.
Yes, that’s it, ‘payback…’
BTW, only in your world does a blowjob equate to ‘perverted’ sex. Of course, for conservatives, anything straying from missionary is daring and kinky; and impeachable because, of course, they won’t get anything like it. Ever. That’s why they troll in men’s bathrooms with a wide stance.
Who do you think keeps ‘Enzyte’ in business? Conservative icon Bob Dole was the poster-boy for erectile dysfunction…
May 3rd, 2009 at 12:51 pmRealityCheck Says:
and that is all that you liberals care about really…payback to President Bush because you’re hero couldn’t keep his pants on when he had his perverted sex with a young intern…and he was impeached for it! If he had been one of these CEO’s that B.O. is forcing out of their jobs…he would have been fired immediately.
Payback for torture? Your kidding, right?
May 3rd, 2009 at 12:52 pmPerverted sex? Your kidding, right?
Impeache for sex? Your kidding, right?
Ceo’s forced out of jobs? Your kidding, right?
bounced reality check thinks non-perverted sex happens in a mens room with some toe tapping going on like his hero larry craig.
May 3rd, 2009 at 1:02 pm.
Dear RealityCheck,
please do tell,
Name the redeeming quality to TORTURE?
Name the redeeming quality to LYING to Congress?
Name the redeeming quality to WARRANTLESS WIRE TAPPING AMERICANS?
… We’re listening.
.
May 3rd, 2009 at 1:14 pmThe Reichwingnuts like RealityCheck seem to be under the impression that going after Bush and his associates is payback.
Perhaps Reichwingnuts believe that they are deserving of some payback. The most recent election is evidence of the payback of the American people.
What the Reichwingnuts like RealityCheck fail to realize is that going after war criminals is not about payback, It’s about justice. It makes no difference who ordered the torture, they deserve to be punished, no exceptions, no excuses.
It’s unfortunate for the Republicans that the vast majority of people accused of torture are Republicans, but that’s the way justice works. Only the guilty are supposed to be punished.
May 3rd, 2009 at 1:15 pm.
Well RalityCheck,
I suppose the bank robber thinks spending time in jail is retribution…
Or the Rapist getting rapped behind bars complains about retribution…
The murderer who watches his back in the yard complains about retribution.
… So what position are you arguing for?
A) That when a president commits a crime, it’s not a crime when he does it, or says so?
B) That TORTURE, LYING, Constitutional Violations are a good thing that deserve special protections.
C) That enforcing the Law is incorrect and doing so, is about a personal vendetta.
D) Breaking the Law is a punishable crime. Knowingly breaking it shows intent. Committing crimes against humanity, knowingly, requires accountability if it is to remain, ILLEGAL!
.
May 3rd, 2009 at 1:22 pmOnce again, Bush depends on his loyal 20% to defend the indefensible–this time it’s torture. Before it was lying us into war, then outing CIA agents, then spying on Americans. Cheney’s presence on news organizations loyal to his talking points is a last-ditch effort to convince himself (and he hopes others) that torturing other human beings was justified. Unfortunately for him and his GOP–they are on the wrong side of the torture issue.
May 3rd, 2009 at 1:26 pmRealityCheck Says:
May 3rd, 2009 at 1:29 pmYou gotta give credit to this troll. He manages to mention Clinton, and that Clinton got a blowjob and that Clinton was impeached for his blowjob. Then he mentions Obama firing CEOs. He probably earns extra “Billo Bucks” for this type of multi-talking-point post.
Kelly O’Donnell is saying that it is so hard for Democrats to prosecute for war crimes that they have to consider alternative methods. The truth is that all we need is a DOJ investigation.
May 3rd, 2009 at 2:09 pmMATTHEWS: And there could be prosecutions then.
O’DONNELL: Well, it’s a crime to give a false statement to Congress.
May 3rd, 2009 at 3:06 pm……………….
It is also a crime to torture people to death , wiretap their telephones without oversight ,disappear them to black sites or have them tortured in countries with a record of human rights abuses .
Perjury is of course a much more serious crime . The rule of law has become a terrible farce !
Break every law of decency known to god or man and win a cupie doll .
May 3rd, 2009 at 3:12 pmGet the WAR CRIMINAL, C. Rice! She lied to Congress and interrupted a Senator to make sure and clear “That the United states does not Torture”, knowing very well that the Torture Program designed by the WH and with her full participation was in full swing!
May 3rd, 2009 at 3:31 pmAlso, to the officias who are dragging their feet: The International Community is Watching!
Mr. Obama is already going against the treats and international conventions for not moving towards Prossecution!
Mr. Holder, what are you waiting for? A better ‘political’ time?
The time to appoint a Special Prosecutor is far over due! SHAME!
Max, I tried to vote but TP is not working… I get a message saying I voted already! I just find your comments absolutely right!!!!!!
May 3rd, 2009 at 3:42 pmBut there is one more thing… the USA via CIA, has been using Torture for decades now! For us in South America, this fact did not come as a surprise like it did for the American People.
If they going to prosecute official because Torture, they will find that most of the USA’s presidents were responsible for these crimes, Clinton included! That is why I think this administration is looking the other way and dragging their feet to do something. It will ‘open a nasty can of worms’.
Folks, the reason why the Democrats are desperate to find a “new way” to investgate is due to the fact that now that the memos are out there, it has become painfully apparent that members of Congress were FULLY BRIEFED on enhanced interrogation techniques AND THEY HAD ABSOLUTELY NO OBJECTIONS.
In fact, Congress wanted to make sure the CIA had enough resources to do the job!
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:02 pmAs usual, you neocons turned my words around to mean something else. What I was saying was the Bush Regime has committed war crimes and they need to be held accountable. I don’t care how the Dems get to that point. Get it now?
YOU NEOCONS ARE MORE CONCERNED WITH “ILLEGAL BLOWJOBS” THEN YOU ARE WAR CRIMES & TORTURE!
You’re the pathetic Americans we’re all talking about these days!
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:04 pmI wish that TP was working properly, there are so many good comments on this thread to ‘recommend’.
Obviously I’m not referring to RC’s ridiculous statements. RC, I have to say that you really are a useless tool. If you can come up with any reality-based responses to Max, APEC NOT OPEC, or Hanshiro, I’ll damned suprised.
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:05 pmLevi,
Actually Reality Check’s post isn’t totally accurate. President Clinton wasn’t impeached for his sexual encounter.
He was impeached because he lied under oath.
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:05 pmGOING AFTER GEORGE BUSH AND HIS WAR CRIMINALS IS PAYBACK TO THE U.S. CONSTITUTION AND A WAY FOR US TO SHOW IT WE STILL RESPECT IT!
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:06 pm“suprised”
D’oh, ’surprised’, obviously.
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:06 pmI’ll damned suprised
Okay, one last try: I’ll be damned surprised. There!
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:07 pmGEORGE BUSH TOLD THE NATION AND THE WORLD, “We don’t torture”, but turns out, HE WAS LYING!
WAR CRIMES INVESTIGATION, PLEASE!
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:08 pmAnd yes, George Bush took an oath PRIOR TO SAYING ‘WE DON’T TORTURE’!
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:09 pmKayinMaine,
O.K.. Then you will agree that members of Congress are just as quilty as the Bush Administration, correct?
What I want to see here is some consistency from you folks. If you believe that the U.S. engaged in torture, then you must agree that ANYONE who had anything to do with it must be prosecute, correct?
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:09 pmIf at ANY TIME during the numerous and detailed briefings given to Congress members of that body thought the U.S. was going to engage in torture, they had the power to shut it down, to defund it! THEY DID NOTHING.
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:11 pmNope, I won’t agree because members of Congress WERE NOT SHOWN THE FULL EXTENT OF WHAT THE BUSH PIGS WERE REALLY DOING. They just showed a small portion of their torture plan!
Congress was deceived and manipulated by the Bush Regime to get themselves AN ILLEGAL OCCUPATION OF A SOVEREIGN NATION! Hitler would have been proud of the Bush Regime and how they achieved this!
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:12 pmI just love watching leading Democrats in Congress SQUIRM now that the memos have been declassified and their role is being revealed.
Nancy Pelosi, in particular has been lying through her teeth hoping that no-one will notice.
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:13 pmKay,
NICE try, but no dice. You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own set of facts.
Members of Congress were briefed in FULL DETAIL on the techniques that were about to be employed!
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:14 pmTHE REPUBLICANS CONTROLLED THE WHITE HOUSE, THE U.S. SENATE, AND THE U.S. HOUSE FROM 2002-2006, so where were the republicans on this? Why did they NOT ALLOW THE DEMOCRATS TO BRING FORTH LEGISLATION TO STOP FUNDING THE ILLEGAL OCCUPATION OR TO REGULATE? Oh that’s right! Because the republicans supported the president right or wrong and they didn’t care what the Democrats had to say about it either! Funny, those same a**wipes today aren’t supporting President Obama right or wrong! What changed, ya jerks?
And where was your outrage from 2000-2008, huh neocon? Oh that’s right! You were too busy calling me and others traitors and un-American for even saying that the Bush Pigs were torturing, spying on Americans starting in February 2001, or for rendering of people to other nations! Yeah, yeah, you didn’t believe us, but now we know YOU WERE THE TRUE TRAITORS OF AMERICA! How do you like that?
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:16 pmO’Donnell’s reporting is consistent with reporting by Mike Isikoff & Mark Hosenball who also say that the DOJ is looking at possible obstruction of justice charges against some CIA operatives & attorneys. One way or the other….
The Constant Weader at http://www.RealityChex.com
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:16 pmOh really? List out the names of those who got the full scoop and a link to back it up.
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:16 pmPelosi & Harman did not get the full details of what the Bush Regime were doing. They got an overview of the techniques but nothing saying those techniques were being used or that waterboarding was being done 183 times on one individual in one month’s time.
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:16 pmSee, this is the problem, Kay. You and a lot of others here can’t seem to debate honestly.
You can try, but you won’t be successful if you try to deny the truth. The truth is that the memos should be a source of PRIDE, not shame. Why? Because they show the extent to which our country was determined to keep us safe while at the same time not engaging in torture!
Our intent was never to torture. Our intent was to obtain intelligence using admittedly harsh techniques, but they did not rise to the level of torture.
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:18 pmEven Ms. Pelosi knows her credibility (such as it is) is on the line, so you folks are wasting your time trying to defend her.
She knows she had full knowledge, that’s why she’s trying so hard to gin up a plausible denial scenario!
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:22 pmReally? Waterboarding is not torture even though for almost 6 decades it was considered torture? If waterboarding is nothing, then why hasn’t Sean Hannity of Hate News not submitted yet to it after he said he would? He said instead that he would happy to send some money to charity. I thought waterboarding was cinchy?
Pelosi was NOT the Speaker of the House in 2002. Reading “enhanced interrogations” is different than reading, “we’re torturing these individuals”. Our police & FBI agents used enhanced interrogations of their suspects and they do it in a way where they don’t even touch the person they’re interrogating! Would you agree? Seems our police & FBI can get information a lot quicker this way then spending days & hours torturing someone until they give out false information just to make the torture stop!
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:27 pmWhich republicans on these committees should also be held accountable? Huh? List them out for us.
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:28 pmSome of you here can’t seem to grasp the obvious sometimes.
For example, if the Bush Administration’s intent WAS to torture and engage in all manner of illegal activity related to the war on terror, then why did they DOCUMENT everything and brief Congress on all the extensive research into enhanced interrogation methods?
I maintain that if the United States was intent on acting just like Saddam Hussein and dictators like him when it came to torture, we would have JUST DONE IT.
Why try to justify it? It makes no sense and neither do any of the silly arguments I read here!
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:30 pmWith respect to waterboarding and how we applied it, I suggest you folks actually read the memos and avail yourselves of other information readily available.
For example, there’s no comparison between how our servicemen were treated by the Japanses in WWII vs. how we treated the terrorists.
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:33 pmYou’re not paying attention are you? You’re still watching Hate News and thinking you are getting all the ‘facts’?
What did Condi Rice say last week about the Bush Regime and torture? Oh that’s right! She pulled Nixon out of her butt and said, (paraphrasing), “We did not torture because George Bush and his attorneys said any technique we use will not be considered torture, so if none of it considered torture because the President said it wasn’t torture, then that makes it true and legal”.
Did you miss this last week?
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:33 pmSleep deprivation and stress positions KILLED TWO IN AMERICA’S CUSTODY:
http://whitenoiseinsanity.com/2009/04/22/stress-positions-sleep-deprivation-dont-result-in-death-and-should-not-be-considered-torture/
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:34 pmI also suggest further truth gathering for those of you seemingly averse to the facts:
For a start, read all the comments from former CIA directors, etc. on the highly valuable intel we obtained from the high-value terrorists we subjected to waterboarding.
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:34 pmThese same former CIA directors are also unanimous in their assessment of the GREAT HARM done by de-classifying the memos!
We have just given the enemy VALUABLE insight into how we conduct our business!
What the President did was inexcusable.
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:38 pmJust like in the aftermath of former President Clinton’s decimation of the CIA’s ability to gather timely intelligence on our enemies, our intelligence forces are faced once again with a terrible setback dealt to them by OUR OWN PRESIDENT.
Folks, our enemies are LAUGHING. They see a new weakness in our resolve to fight them and therefor will be EMBOLDENED.
Thank you, President Obama and your clueless minions.
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:42 pmAll I and others who really understand what’s going on can hope is that the silent majority in this country will WAKE UP and dispossess the likes of our new President from the reins of power.
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:44 pmInteresting, for years myself and others protested across our great nation bringing attention to the U.S. torturing those in our custody (and there were pictures from Abu Graib too mind you!) and even people across the planet understood that America was involved in torture,
but yet,
YOU WINGERS WANT US TO BELIEVE THAT THESE MEMOS ARE GOING TO HURT OUR NATION? Bah hahahahahahahaha! Too late for that a**hole! The whole world knew we were torturing!
By the way, what were you and your neocons doing when we were protesting? Oh that’s right! Calling us traitors, but today, you Teabaggers think you’re going to change the world!
I’m sorry, but you are a pathetic piece of uneducated crap.
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:45 pmProvide some links to what you’re saying, please.
President Obama is not ordering the torturing of anyone, so therefore, America and the world respects him. Do you get that, moron, or are you just a typical right wing neck drooling knuckle dragging neocon who couldn’t absorb the truth even if we soaked it in a cloth and put it on your forehead!
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:47 pmDick Cheney ordered the anthrax to be sent out to liberals in America after 9/11 through Donald Rumsfeld at the Pentagon and through Fort Detrick.
REPUBLICANS ARE THE REAL TERRORISTS….DOMESTIC & FOREIGN.
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:48 pmWe’ve been talking about the Bush Regime waterboarding for years now. Where were ya then, neocons? Oh that’s right! Because we have a black president now, suddenly you want to just forget what the Bush Regime did in our name! You’d much rather go after President Obama for all that the Bush Regime did! Idiots.
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:50 pmAll I and others who really understand what’s going on
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:50 pm—
Now this is some truely silly shit. What evidence do you have and are willing to offer that you have a clue and that others don’t? Tim my man you suffer some serious frat boy issues…
Tim Vaculik Says:
Just like in the aftermath of former President Clinton’s decimation of the CIA’s ability to gather timely intelligence on our enemies, our intelligence forces are faced once again with a terrible setback dealt to them by OUR OWN PRESIDENT.
Hi, Tim. I’m not sure I know what you’re referring to here. What do you mean by “the aftermath of former President Clinton’s decimation of the CIA’s ability to gather timely intelligence on our enemies”?
As I recall, there was, what was widely being known as, a “peace dividend” after the Berlin Wall came down. It was universally agreed that since most of our intelligence gathering operations were geared toward spying the the Soviet Union, we could save money by reducing money spent toward this, now less necessary, goal.
I also recall that Clinton focused on anti-terrorism more than any president before or since. So could you please help me understand why you described things this way? Thank you.
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:51 pmTim Vaculik Says:
“…Then you will agree that members of Congress are just as quilty as the Bush Administration, correct?
What I want to see here is some consistency from you folks. If you believe that the U.S. engaged in torture, then you must agree that ANYONE who had anything to do with it must be prosecute, correct?”
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:09 pm
I don’t believe that all members of Congress were fully briefed on the fact that torture. But I do believe investigations are necessary and that anyone, Republican or Democrat, who is proven to have known about and condoned the practice of torture, should be prosecuted.
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:51 pmI also suggest further truth gathering for those of you seemingly averse to the facts:
— Wanna define truth for me there big guy? You are so subjective as to make yourself comical…
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:53 pmHere’s a good read for ya Tim:
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1893679,00.html?imw=Y
Now you provide a link proving that the CIA & FBI think torture is the only way to get information out of suspects!
And….
IF TORTURE WAS SUCH A VALUABLE TOOL, WHERE’S OSAMA BIN LADEN THEN? HUH?
By the way, since you morons blamed Bill Clinton for 9/11 because he did not get Osama bin Laden, then we get to blame George Bush for the next 9/11 attack on our nation (and after 8 years of the Bush Regime the next attack won’t be a surprise at all!)!
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:54 pmTim Vaculik Says:
You can try, but you won’t be successful if you try to deny the truth. The truth is that the memos should be a source of PRIDE, not shame. Why? Because they show the extent to which our country was determined to keep us safe while at the same time not engaging in torture!
Our intent was never to torture. Our intent was to obtain intelligence using admittedly harsh techniques, but they did not rise to the level of torture.
Hey Tim VacuDICKlikER, If your son or daughter were captured by islamofascists militants, would you still puke out the same vomit I just quoted you as saying?
May 3rd, 2009 at 4:56 pmTim Vaculik Says:
You can try, but you won’t be successful if you try to deny the truth. The truth is that the memos should be a source of PRIDE, not shame. Why? Because they show the extent to which our country was determined to keep us safe while at the same time not engaging in torture!
Our intent was never to torture. Our intent was to obtain intelligence using admittedly harsh techniques, but they did not rise to the level of torture.
I’m sorry, Tim, but they very much did rise to the level of torture. The techniques chosen for the “enhanced interrogation” (as they euphemistically called them) were chosen because they were used in S.E.R.E. Training. You know that, don’t you? But did you also know that the techni
May 3rd, 2009 at 5:02 pmWhat is it with repubs and torture? I do not get it. did they torture animals as a kid? I am a retired naval flight officer I was taught at SERE SCHOOL that the bad guys tortured like waterboarding. I thought we were the good guys some of these idiots who want to torture what is their problem are they really that afraid of TERRORISTS.Get a life and grow up. people who torture should be prosecuted period. We should have never gone down this path! BUSH AND CHENEY are very sick men! My country does not torture. NEVER AGAIN!PLEASE!
May 3rd, 2009 at 5:03 pmgot cut off there…
But did you also know that the techniques chosen for S.E.R.E. training were specifically chosen because they are illegal?
So, just because someone in the Justice Dept came up with some convoluted rational why they should be legal to use on prisoners does not make them legal.
Now, please tell me what is wrong with that reasoning. Thank you.
May 3rd, 2009 at 5:04 pmExactly Intrepid! Here’s what George Bush said to the Iraqis if they captured one of our own:
Link: http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/17/sprj.irq.bush.transcript/
GEORGE BUSH WAS TALKING HERE ABOUT TORTURING OUR SOLDIERS BY EITHER THE IRAQIS OR THE AFGHANS.
Funny, he had no problem authorizing torture at the hands of Americans against anyone they labeled an ‘enemy combatant’ even if the person was purchased from Pakistan or not!
Here’s George Bush shaking hands and smiling with Islam Karimov, you know, the president of Uzbekistan who likes to boil people alive or douse them with hot oil until they die:
http://bodypolitik.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/bush-and-karimov-5.jpg
Karimov got lots of US prisoners to have fun with after the CIA rendered them to his country!
May 3rd, 2009 at 5:06 pmTim would be absolutely fine if his daughter was tortured by America’s enemies and if they raped her (or shoved a toilet plunger up her butt like our soldiers did to prisoners at Abu Graib for sh*ts and giggles!). He’s pro-torture no matter who is getting it done to them and even if his daughter was sold to a nation to be tortured. See?
May 3rd, 2009 at 5:07 pmYes by all means Tim , if democrats are also implicated in the torture scandal after a very serious investigation they should be charged and if the evidence is compelling enough ,convicted !
May 3rd, 2009 at 5:23 pmOh and Wayne and Jane thanks for your as always excellent posts and in particular your COURTESY in answering those you are disagreeing with.
May 3rd, 2009 at 5:26 pmThanks .
Why, thank you, freeman – but I did call RealityCheck a useless tool. ;)
Tim Vaculik Says:
See, this is the problem, Kay. You and a lot of others here can’t seem to debate honestly.
Hmmm, speaking of debating honestly, I notice that Tim hasn’t responded to Wayne’s or my courteous questions.
May 3rd, 2009 at 5:33 pmTim cannot and will not provide any evidence for his rhetoric. His ideas are based on belief instead of truth.
May 3rd, 2009 at 5:35 pmTim
See, this is the problem, Kay. You and a lot of others here can’t seem to debate honestly.
…………………..
May 3rd, 2009 at 5:35 pmYou are accusing other posters of not being willing to follow the evidence where it leads because of party loyalty and I absolutely agree with the criticism !
However this is to all appearances very disingenuous because on this and to best of my recollection ALL other threads I have seen you post on you tirelessly defend the republicans ad infinitum.
ANd that is a real victory Jane . your argument won on the value of it’s merits .
May 3rd, 2009 at 5:38 pmLevi the Dungbeetle Says:
——————————————————————————–
Tim cannot and will not provide any evidence for his rhetoric. His ideas are based on belief instead of truth.
I would submit here that the this statement cuts both ways .
If Obama argues in court for the expansion of presidential powers including tacitly allowing the executive branch to operate with impunity outside the law ,the right to tap my telephone and go through my mail or breaks his promise ( see u tube ) to disavow signing statements , he should be catching flack from his base !
May 3rd, 2009 at 5:44 pmNo?
TP should enforce it’s own terms of use , to do otherwise is allow a mistake that can be used discredit the site in the future by the likes of he who must not be named , which is not efficient .
May 3rd, 2009 at 5:52 pmfreeman Says:
If Obama argues in court for the expansion of presidential powers including tacitly allowing the executive branch to operate with impunity outside the law ,the right to tap my telephone and go through my mail or breaks his promise ( see u tube ) to disavow signing statements , he should be catching flack from his base !
No?
May 3rd, 2009 at 5:44 pm
Emphatically, YES!
May 3rd, 2009 at 5:58 pmhttp://www.1115.org/2009/04/30/presidential-prevarication-still-alive-and-well/
May 3rd, 2009 at 6:06 pmI’ll say it again. The only way there will be torture prosecutions is if Americans support it. The way it looks, Americans are less and less willing to go down that road.
Liberals need get better at framing the argument. Republicans have been doing it much better for a long time.
Great article on it here:
http://progressnotcongress.org/blog/?p=597
May 3rd, 2009 at 6:16 pmkevsters Says:
The way what looks? Perhaps you could provide some evidence of how you believe things “look”.
As for Republicans being better at “framing the argument”, what the hell is that supposed to mean? You are speaking in Reichwingnuttery.
What Republicans are good at is borrowing ideas from fascism, including the use of trolls to spread propaganda.
May 3rd, 2009 at 6:33 pmOT
May 3rd, 2009 at 7:42 pm(Reuters) – Iraq will not extend withdrawal deadlines for U.S. troops set out in a bilateral accord, ending months of speculation about whether U.S. combat troops would stay beyond June in bases in the restive northern city of Mosul.
RealityCheck
You are a liar a fool and an ignorant punk. You dont KNOW what we care about. You are too stupid to know anything except what Rush TOLD you to know. You moron. Speaking for myself I believe in the rule of law. It looks like YOU dont care about anything except protecting your idol Bush from the consequences of his actions it looks like you are too stupid to breathe. You are stupid RC a stupid, worthless troll
May 4th, 2009 at 5:57 amTimmeh the Moron 34
Good of you to drop by to remind us how incredibly staggeringly stupid you are Timmeh. You dont KNOW what objections they might have had you ignorant piece of stupid. IT WAS CLASSIFIED. They might have cried theirselves to sleep every night for weeks what they couldnt do is MAKE PUBLIC STATEMENTS ABOUT IT. My GOD you are ignorant. I truly didnt think ANYONE would be stupid enough to be taken in by this weak and inane talking point. I forgot how brainwashed you were Timmeh. Rush told you to think it and repeat it and THAT is your entire world. Dont you know how much you embarass yourself with this kind of stupidity? You truly are a morons moron Timmeh
May 4th, 2009 at 6:02 amTimmeh you ignorant piece of garbage you are a liar and a fool. Who told to think THAT bit of stupidity. I DID read the description of the waterboarding the Japanese were convicted of. It is EXACTLY what we are doing. Waterboarding hasnt changed one iota since it was used during the Spanish inquisitions MORON. You are stupid Timmeh, I mean galactic level stupid. You just believe and regurgitate whatever you are TOLD to think. What a waste of life you are. You can keep lying and spewing the lies you have been instructed to think from now til doomsday. It wont change reality. It will just show what a liar and what a moron you are.
May 4th, 2009 at 6:06 amTimmeh. You are truly stupid and pathetic
May 4th, 2009 at 6:09 amI THANK
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Americans could care less about Iraqi deaths and torture.
Americans are indifferent to fascists and war criminals.
May 4th, 2009 at 12:07 pmI got cut off for some reason yesterday so I was unable to respond.
Wayne at #69.
What I was referring to was President Clinton’s directive that the CIA could no longer use informants whose hands were dirty. In other words, our intelligence gatherers were no longer able to work with informants because of political correctness.
Not only this, but he directed Jamie Gorelick to instigate rules that erected a “wall” between the CIA and the FBI, effectively cutting of vital sharing of intelligence.
May 4th, 2009 at 9:57 pmWith respect to comments by drive-by flamers, all I can say is this: at least I’m not boring and predictable!
Talk about OLD!!!
May 4th, 2009 at 9:59 pmYes Timmeh you ARE boring AND predictable. If I had the stomach to listen to Rush I could write your posts for you. My GOD you are stupid.
May 5th, 2009 at 7:49 amTim Vaculik Says:
Not only this, but he directed Jamie Gorelick to instigate rules that erected a “wall” between the CIA and the FBI, effectively cutting of vital sharing of intelligence.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
No he didnt. That was a lie and you are astonishingly stupid and brainwashed. Just because Rush TOLD you to think it doesnt make it true. That bit of nonsense has been refuted and debunked a few hundred times in the last several years. You are a moron. Rush keeps programming you and YOU keep telling lies.
May 5th, 2009 at 7:51 am