GOP National Council Stumped When Asked To Offer Health Care Solutions
GOP National Council Stumped When Asked To Offer Health Care Solutions
On Saturday, Republican Party leaders Rep. Eric Cantor (R-VA), Jeb Bush, and Mitt Romney participated in a pizza parlor town hall in Arlington, VA to launch the National Council for a New America. The Council, an effort to rebrand and revive the GOP, was established by Cantor to “duel with the Obama administration in policy areas” where Republicans have a “track record.”
After almost 40 minutes of speeches, including several reminders that Republicans should not be “nostalgic about the past,” the speakers opened up to questions from the audience. Ed McKee, the owner of the pizza parlor, asked what Republicans would do to reform health care, citing his own business’ struggle to deal with “health insurance rates,” which recently “went up 34%.” Watch it:
Responding to McKee’s question concerning the dramatic health care cost hike, Cantor said “that should be a sure sign we ought to be promoting anything that can try to bring health care costs down.” But rather than offering any ideas or policy plans for addressing health care costs, Cantor launched into a set of attacks on the health systems in the UK and Canada, saying any reform should not reflect a “government takeover.” The National Council’s policy paper on health care is similarly vague and lacks a single policy plan.
Cantor is not offering any of the promised “new policy ideas.” Instead, he is rehashing tired straw man arguments against the single-payer systems of Canada and the UK. The Obama administration has consistently opposed a single-payer program. However, the administration has signaled it will support a public option, a program to give Americans the choice of either retaining their private insurance plan or the ability to enter a government plan. A study from the Commonwealth Fund estimates that a public plan option would cost 20-30% less than premiums from traditional private insurers.
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Cantor can’t.
May 4th, 2009 at 2:15 pmWhen investment returns go south, premium prices soar. That’s a huge problem and why the Obama plan should not rely solely on private insurance.
May 4th, 2009 at 2:15 pm“Uhhhh….erm…well, ya know…uhhhh, I got nothin’”
The Party of Nothing.
May 4th, 2009 at 2:19 pmI wish someone would have asked these Bozos in the Town Hall how they like their socialized medical program paid for by the American People and the US Government and what private program they intend to replace their health care program with if they lost it.
May 4th, 2009 at 2:21 pmOT — the recommend button snafu is apparently fixed?
May 4th, 2009 at 2:22 pmThe repugs should just keep on having their pizza party`s, the adults are in charge now. So rightwingers sit at the kiddie table and watch and learn. You have to understand that its going to take a little while to get us out of the mess that Bush/Cheney got us in especially since repugs say no to anything that President Obama does.
May 4th, 2009 at 2:22 pmWhy should health care be any different than foreign policy or the economy?
May 4th, 2009 at 2:23 pmWoo-hoo! Zooey, I was able to recommend your comment after someone else did! Yay!
Now, if only the login can get fixed – I know Wayne’s still having problems with that.
May 4th, 2009 at 2:23 pmBut, but if we have public health insurance, then insurance companies profits would fall and they would have less money to donate to politicians, and the public would not be soaked for making CEO’s uber rich.
And don’t forget then the public would have the SAME HEALTH INSURANCE as these scum sucking sellouts.
Politicians, it’s our money, not yours…if you want health care, get rich, other wise crawl in a hole and die.
Fcuk the Republicans
May 4th, 2009 at 2:27 pmWe really can’t expect any new ideas from the Republican party of repeated failures.
May 4th, 2009 at 2:27 pmMedicare has 2% administrative overhead. Factoring in manditory profit, many for-profit healthcare plans have 40% “overhead”.
Please tell me why we wouldn’t consider a Medicare for All plan. If we want to help small businesses in tough economic times, what better “rebate” than cutting their insurance rates almost in half?
PEACE
May 4th, 2009 at 2:29 pmOT… today is Kent State’s 39th anniversary of Nixon’s National Guard shootings. Wow. I’m getting old. :)
May 4th, 2009 at 2:29 pmWhy should the Rethugs be stumped when answering about health care solutions?
Their answer is simple…..
You’re on your own.
¶ AIO
May 4th, 2009 at 2:30 pmWhy, I’m just running amok recommending posts!!!
PEACE
May 4th, 2009 at 2:30 pmThey can’t answer because original ideas that benefit regular Americans are beyond the scope of their intelligence.
Sad. Pathetic. Curious.
What you’re seeing is whole bunch of wannabees clamoring for attention. They recognize the lack of party leadership. They agree the party needs re-branding. They agree to meet about it.
And that’s it. That’s the story. They can’t begin to come up with alternative ideas because that would mean actually considering someone’s well being other than themselves.
Sad. Pathetic. Curious.
May 4th, 2009 at 2:31 pmHi Jane, Im not having any problem with loggin in, hopefully Waynes problems will be taken care of. Its good to see TP back to 100%. Thanks TP.
May 4th, 2009 at 2:31 pmI don’t see how these guys can say that it’s unfair to have private plans compete with a public plan, and in the next breath say that government is wasteful and inefficient. Shouldn’t the free market devotees have more faith in the ability of the private plans to deliver a better product? This makes no sense, but I guess that’s not surprising.
May 4th, 2009 at 2:31 pmI will respect the GNOP’s “private, for-profit healthcare only” when all congressional GNOPers forgo their current public-funded plan and stand on their principles.
PEACE
May 4th, 2009 at 2:32 pmCome on guys! The GOP has Solutions for health care. The Solutions is, “NO, you can’t have it!”
Jerks!
May 4th, 2009 at 2:33 pmThe GOP’s solution for reducing health care costs is to reduce health care for others.
May 4th, 2009 at 2:34 pmLibertyLover Says:
OT… today is Kent State’s 39th anniversary of Nixon’s National Guard shootings. Wow. I’m getting old. :)
Thanks for being a good sport and getting old along with the rest of us.
One minor quibble – the Ohio National Guard was sent in on the orders of OH Governor James A. Rhodes, a different Republican slimeball.
May 4th, 2009 at 2:35 pmsscncturn64 Says:
Hi! Looks like Wayne’s finally gotten in. Yay, now we’re back to ‘normal’!
May 4th, 2009 at 2:37 pmI thought the official GOP position was to do nothing — because, you know, people who can’t afford health insurance CHOSE to be poor. Besides, the rich should be healthy enough to reproduce, and the poor should just die out. This way, our country will contain only rich people.
Snark aside, all I’ve ever heard from conservatives about health care tend to fall into one or more of these dotpoints:
1. Universal health care is socialism. We can’t have that. It will cause our health care to be worse than Papua New Guinea’s.
2. A public health plan designed to compete with private health plans would be unfair — to the private for-profit health insurance companies.
3. Health care would be just fine if it wasn’t for malpractice suits. THAT’S what’s driving up the costs.
4. Health care would be just fine if it wasn’t for those illegals getting free health care in emergency rooms. THAT’S what’s driving up the costs.
5. All we need to do is provide some more “competition” in the marketplace. Of course, all this means is that we give the for-profit companies more money for their marketing budgets. It won’t bring costs down, but people might feel better about the insurance company they’re forking over a third of their income to if they see a lot of razzle-dazzle commercials.
And lastly –
6. I got mine. Who cares about anybody else?
May 4th, 2009 at 2:37 pmmisscoleopteramolly Says:
Nicely done, miss molly.
May 4th, 2009 at 2:41 pmThe Republicans will fight anything and everything that takes the profit motive out of health care. They do not at all if you get sick and die. They care very much if someone is able to profit off your illness. When you talk about bringing health care costs down, you’re talking about taking away someone’s profits. For that reason alone, the Republicans will fight anything we try to do.
May 4th, 2009 at 2:42 pmO/T sorry, Spencers mom you and I both live in PA, I live in eastern PA. I can buy the NY post where I live, if you can too I highly recommend it. Its so entertaining like fox lies. Sht thats right Rupert Murdoch owns both of them. Did you ever have the pleasure of picking up that waist of paper and ink?
May 4th, 2009 at 2:49 pm.
G(no)P Health Care Solution #1 – “Don’t get sick.”
.
May 4th, 2009 at 2:50 pmDon’t forget,
The GOP is “on their way to drinking that Potomac River water”. It must have some healing powers so, maybe we should follow suit and we won’t need health care.
May 4th, 2009 at 2:51 pmI’ll feel better when ‘The Party of Pain’ is gone.
They’ve been making me ill most of my adult life.
Sleazeballs, perverts, liars & whackos…the American Taliban.
May 4th, 2009 at 2:54 pm#11 Spencer’s Butterfly Mom says:
Please tell me why we wouldn’t consider a Medicare for All plan. If we want to help small businesses in tough economic times, what better “rebate” than cutting their insurance rates almost in half?
____________________
And after having just become eligible for Medicare, I can’t tell you the savings from federal private [which I still retain due to out of pocket overruns]. Private ins. which I have had for 30 years, now only pays 85% of any care, hospitalization included. Premiums far more expensive and out of pocket costs skyrocketing. I can’t understand why Medicare only has 2% administrative when it’s 40% for private since administrative is essentially the same no matter. Despite paying a premium for Medicare which is about the same as private annually, the coverage is unbeatable and I would rather have good coverage than a smaller policy premium. I would also think that with far more people opting to take public ins., the costs would drop that much more.
So we should ALL be doing everything possible to push for a policy plan similar to Medicare as I can’t believe anyone would not join [other than our pols who have 'us' paying for their best in all the world policies].
May 4th, 2009 at 2:55 pmThey totally ignored the pizza owners questions as usual and offered “no” answers or “solutions.”
Here’s what the republicans real response actually meant: “We have “no” solutions for America or your problems now leave us alone as we desperately are trying to “ruin” Obama, that’s the main focus of the republicans right now.”
To the pizza owner, “Obama’s health plan option is what you need for your employees and the republicans know it and keep those ‘brainless’ thugs out of your pizza shop their bad for you health.”
May 4th, 2009 at 2:59 pmmisscoleopteramolly Says (#23):
missmolly, you have a habit and skill of practically ending all other possible comments. :D It’s not fair!
May 4th, 2009 at 3:01 pmI’m a baby boomer and I’ve worked and paid into insurance for myself and my family. I never gave much attention to health insurance until now. Even during Hillary’s campaign during the Clinton years I didn’t think of what it would be like to not have insurance. I have worked from the age of 16 till 60 and now without a job or insurance. If someone doesn’t set up a plan things will only get worse. The UK and Canada think differently then Americans as those countries believe in sharing and caring for others. We often hear in the US an act of kindness or even how a foreign person is brought to the US for medical help. While we never give a second thought about the Americans who also need help. Maybe President Obama can teach us again to share and care about each others as we once did when we built this great country.
May 4th, 2009 at 3:01 pmHoly mackarel ….did Kantor say ANYTHING ???
May 4th, 2009 at 3:04 pmWhat a bunch of doubletalk….
I fail to see the difference between a private and public insurance company. I mean, its not like either one is a private account where what you pay in is what you get out…either one uses other peoples money to pay for the health care bills of another.
They are both ’socialist’ in that respect. The difference is in who profits.
May 4th, 2009 at 3:09 pmGOP solution to health care problems:
May 4th, 2009 at 3:12 pm-Heal Thyself if you’re poor.
-Pay the HMO/PPO if you’re middle class.
-Ask your Doctor about all the new drugs for new ailments that you didn’t even know you had that was advertised on the TV last night.
-Go to the Doctor, any doctor, even specialists, if you are a Congressman or Senator or ex-Congressman or Ex-Senator or just plain rich.
-Insurance won’t pay for it all, so make sure you have a 401 K
… oops, sorry that the housing bubble/AIG/banking fiasco has caused Wall Street to crash and take your retirement with you, making you poor.
- Heal Thyself.
WHAT?!?!?!?!?
The Republican Party has NO IDEAS??????
**thud**
/snark ;o)
May 4th, 2009 at 3:15 pmI took the politicians [Cantors] answer to mean…Look, we are beholden to the insurance folks because we take their money and you dont want to pay less for insurance, right?
May 4th, 2009 at 3:16 pmThe struggle not to blurt “deregulation and tax breaks for the rich” is clouding their minds.
May 4th, 2009 at 3:25 pmAs a Canadian, I have the right to say this…Cantor please Fu*k right off!! Don’t you dare bring my Country into the conversation when you have no Fu**en idea of how our system runs.
To my American brothers and sisters, PLEASE DON’T LISTEN TO THESE WAK Fu**s. I wish you knew how it feels NOT TO WORRY ABOUT HEALTH CARE COSTS!!!! This past weekend I attended a funeral for a young man 33 who died of cancer. No symptons of this rare form of Cancer. He spent his last two weeks in hospital before passing on. How much did it cost his family for the care???? $0.00
Will the family be burdened with the costs after his death??? NO!!! Will the family go broke??? NO!!!! Has an Insurance firm or hospital suing for non payment???? NO!!!!!
So Cantor, Just becuase you like raping people while there are dying doesn’t mean you have the right to make judgement on our system. I sencereley hope you choke on it!!! and don’t bring up my Country again you FU**EN IDIOT!!!!
Take to the streets !!! fight for your right….if the rest of the industrialized world looks after it’s citizens why can’t the largest economic country in the world????
Repugs = Pigs = Greed = a life of slavory to the corporate masters!!! Is this what you want America???
Good Luck!!
May 4th, 2009 at 3:26 pmthe only industrized nation in the world without universal health care says it all about america.
americans would rather be imperialists then provide health care insurance for all.
until americans look into a mirror and see themselves as imperialists nothing much will change in america.
we invaded a country with lots of oil and continue to occupy it and we have 700 military bases around the world and we spend more on our military and industrial military complex than all other industrialized countries.
if that is not imperialism then what is.
please tell me what is?
we have met the enemy and it is us and our self righteous imperialism.
ask the germans how their imperialism worked out for them in 1945.
no we would rather play the victim status.
we have committed war crimes and the world does nothing as they want our money and sell us their stuff.
the decline is on americans this is no recession.
May 4th, 2009 at 3:27 pm“Take to the streets !!! fight for your right….if the rest of the industrialized world looks after it’s citizens why can’t the largest economic country in the world????”
americans think they are the greatest in everything.
do not blame our politicans they are only a reflection of the american voters.
even while going bankrupt over medical costs americans will tell you we are the greatest in everything.
we can afford imperialism but not care for the sick and needy.
that is the real america.
sometimes winning a world war can be more destructive than losing a world war. ie self righteousness.
look at england and america since world war two.
the two countries that invaded iraq
when america says jump england says how high.
May 4th, 2009 at 3:33 pmThe GNOP. Masters of the Circular Argument as well as the Circular Fireing Squad.
May 4th, 2009 at 3:33 pmNow if they’d just pull the triggers and put us out of their misery.
As we all know, medical health insurance companies pay enormous amounts for lobbying and political campaigns to protect their empires. It was them who demonized Hillary the first time around. They obviously won’t go down without a fight this time. Any form of single payer passes and they’re out of the game or at least some serious profits.
Their power and influence on our lives is omnipresent. I believe things such as seat belt laws are as much to protect insurance company profits as they are to protect citizens. Smoking bans? Piss tests? (Among the first things to happen after being injured on an industrial job is a piss test administered to the injured or anyone possibly at fault. Dirty pee equates to no coverage and/or lawsuits fraught towards no insurance company payout. Also, I’ve owned a small business and know there are serious cost breaks if a drug testing policy is implemented. But a small instance of their influence on everyday life. )
What does an insurance company actually contribute to society? I guess it could be said that they create jobs…but at what and whose expense? They don’t produce anything but paperwork when it comes down to it.
For profit means just that. They fight tooth and nail to pay out as little as possible on an individual basis to increase the bottom line. Ever notice that the largest and most elegant buildings in most cities are insurance companies? Obscene profits in evidence.
I pay over $7 PER WORKING HOUR for medical insurance and the coverage is mediocre at best. This is an outrageous amount of money but the fund covers union retirees also. I would imagine a program such as “single-payer” would cost much less and the cost of my labor would be much cheaper…an important point.
There is no strong argument for keeping the status quo but that isn’t going to stop the insurance companies from trying. Look for them to go into full offence mode complete with TV and radio ads.
May 4th, 2009 at 3:43 pmThe GOP’s idea on Health Care is..tax breaks for the rich and lets kill all “frivolous” lawsuits and make sure no corporation ever has to pay for their criminal negligence, especially privately owned corporate hospitals and Insurance companies..(even though these so-called lawsuits amount to only 1% of Health Care costs)…if an Insurance company denies a legitimate claim and you die..no penalty..if a Hospital cuts off a perfectly healthy limb or lets you die in the waiting room..no penality..”just oops..oh,well” no responsibilty…any thing that makes the wealthiest among us lives easier..thats the GOP way…
May 4th, 2009 at 3:48 pmwill add this video to my bookmark collection collection.
So far,my favorite video of the GNOP
so far, my favorite one is their 0 budget $0.
May 4th, 2009 at 4:00 pmGNOP = the party of I don’t know.
May 4th, 2009 at 4:02 pmresearcher Says:
Who are you arguing?
May 4th, 2009 at 4:03 pmThe Grand Oil Party’s solution to the health care issue is two fold:
a.) Don’t get sick
May 4th, 2009 at 4:04 pmb.) In the event of getting sick and wishing to avoid death go see Bobby Jindal; he’ll exorcise the living hell out of you.
Republicans are going to go out of their way to avoid committing to supporting real solutions — ANY solutions, even silly ones — to fix our health care problems.
Instead, they are going to expend their energy attacking any proposed solutions from the Democrats.
Single payer system — attack.
Public plan — attack.
Play or pay for employers — attack.
Financial assistance for the poor — attack.
Wouldn’t it be easier to offer some viable competing solutions? No — their “solutions” have more value as campaign issues (”if these solutions were implemented, all our health care problems would be solved, but the Democrats would rather turn this country into a socialist state”). If all their ideas WERE implemented — malpractice went unsued, undocumented residents were left to die in the streets, etc. — they would find that the average family would still be hard-pressed to afford health care. And until the brakes are put on the greedhead profiteers, that’s the way it’s always going to be.
May 4th, 2009 at 4:05 pmWe should demand that every member of congress give up their socialized health care. They believe, erroneously, that we all receive the same benefits from our health insurance that they do. Perhaps that should be the law. That whatever the group rate is for members of congress the insurance carriers have to offer that same level of benefits that congress does for the same cost.
In the meantime, let them all go out shopping for their own insurance.
May 4th, 2009 at 4:05 pmGOP National Council on health care solutions: Eat an apple a day.
May 4th, 2009 at 4:14 pmfor good health eat more poontang a day.
May 4th, 2009 at 4:18 pmgdp is alot more important then helfcare.
May 4th, 2009 at 4:19 pmDoodlebug Shayne Says:
We should demand that every member of congress give up their socialized health care.
Congress works for US, they are our employees as we pay their salary and their health care. And yet, they have the nerve to block health care for US because it will be too competitive for their contributors?
ex:
Nelson’s problem, he told CQ, is that the public plan would be too attractive and would hurt the private insurance plans.
May 4th, 2009 at 4:22 pmUncle Fester Lurks Says:
GOP National Council on health care solutions: Eat an apple a day.
May 4th, 2009 at 4:14 pm
You forgot the disclaimer: The GOP is not responsible if the apple is not safe to eat.
May 4th, 2009 at 4:23 pmWhat Cantor said there was in effect I don’t know what to do, and I oppose anything I didn’t think of. I am against anything that Obama wants, even though he said he doesn’t want it either. I am also against against everything else.
Someone should inteview that Pizza place owner and see what he thought of Cantor’s answer.
May 4th, 2009 at 4:23 pmGOP Health Plan:
Volunteer for military
Move to Canada
Become a politician
Go to prison
May 4th, 2009 at 4:24 pm“Someone should inteview that Pizza place owner and see what he thought of Cantor’s answer.”
Great idea, wiz!
May 4th, 2009 at 4:25 pmFunny, I never hear the politicians complain about the free health care they receive thru the government — if its so bad why arent they talking about it?
May 4th, 2009 at 4:31 pmthe solution is that employers need to be deducting more from their employees wages to cover the increased costs. helfcare is supply-demand! i’m sick of employees not paying enough taxes becoz of this progressive sys, they need to pay thir fair share lyke corporations!
May 4th, 2009 at 4:32 pmif you libs want the best helfcare in the world why are you closing guacomolito bay?
May 4th, 2009 at 4:34 pmneoparasite is back begging for our pity. How stupid and patehtic he is but also how boring. How stupid would he have to be to think he is clever instead of knowing for a FACT he is stupid and pathetic. I guess he is addcted to our pity and since he doesnt have a shred of self respect he just cant help himself.
May 4th, 2009 at 4:35 pmThe ‘Party of Pain’ are some sick people.
May 4th, 2009 at 4:45 pmWhat happened to their big “Alternative Health Care” Proposal???
I’m a news junkie and I haven’t heard a word about it since John Bohner presented a preview of the proposal, minus a small ingrediant – one single number as to the cost – about a month or two ago.
WHAT HAPPENED??????????
Lying Idiots!
May 4th, 2009 at 4:46 pmThe reason Cantor “can`t” come up with an answer is the U.K, Canada and other countries around the Globe base the systems on our country`s very own V.A and medicare, the last running at a 2 to 3 percent overhead and private sector health care can`t compete with that because of salaries and dividends to share holders at an ave of 25 percent for overhead.It`s all about money over humanity and that`s why we have 47 million under insured people in the wealthiest nation on earth.
May 4th, 2009 at 4:51 pmThey can officially be called the party of “NO” and “CAN`T”…..
May 4th, 2009 at 4:55 pmXisithrus Says:
Funny, I never hear the politicians complain about the free health care they receive thru the government — if its so bad why arent they talking about it?
—————————————————————
Now, there you go making the RIGHT sound like the HYPOCRITES they are……….remember if it`s good enough for them it`s to good for the American public.
Snark/
May 4th, 2009 at 4:59 pmnolies, you out there still.Go Wings!!!!!!!
May 4th, 2009 at 5:05 pmWhat Cantor means:
I am happy with my socialized health care, but the rest of you… well you really are not good enough … and to the 18,000 to 40,000 of you dying from no access to health care :
Too bad for you … I will just look the other way, but, BTW thank you for paying my salary and health care so I can continue to vote for my contributors and screw you.
May 4th, 2009 at 5:18 pmThis has probably been said previously above…
May 4th, 2009 at 5:48 pmHowever…
Republicans just don’t get..
they are trying to repackage the garbage they’ve been spewing since R Reagan…and it doesn’t work for the majority of the American people…
no matter how they try and re-package it…They are bankrupt of ideas….and the free market has nothing to do with democracy except for the corporations who will seek slave labor..and to hell with everybody else…
Boss Limbaugh has spoken, though. No listening tour for the Repubs needed. They just need to lead. According to the Grand Poobah of Radio… they need to go on a teaching tour… I guess Americans don’t have a clue what they need. According to Rush, we need the Republicans to tell us.
May 4th, 2009 at 6:28 pmNo Public Servant ( congressman ) should receive $1 more in tax-payer funded health care coverage than does the poorest child and every citizen that the “public servant” claims he represents . See how fast/long FOR-PROFIT health insurance companies last if the congressman did not enjoy the tax-payer provided health care that he does . Mr. Cantor lives one county away from me , way to close … small blessing that he is not my rep. , My district just went blue.
May 4th, 2009 at 7:32 pmThis “National Committee” of Republicans reminds me of the Paula Poundstone joke. “Do you know why adults are always asking children what they want to be when they grow up? It’s because they are looking for ideas.”
This is a party looking for new ideas that has none.
May 4th, 2009 at 8:01 pmWe needs some good, old-fashioned price controls to restrain the inflated inflation causing costs and premiums to skyrocket.
Let the republicans have their health insurance companies. Let the People have simple health care.
May 4th, 2009 at 9:33 pmWHen the Repulicants say they wish to reduce the cost of healthcare, what they are truly saying is that doctors, nurses and everyone else in healthcare makes too much, and they wish to pummel them similarly to the way they killed factory based labor in this country. Everything for the betterment of the coporate interests and screw the working people.
May 4th, 2009 at 11:55 pmThe Republicants need to split into Conservatives and Goopers, and the GOopers need to be killed as an entity.
Alecto, lol! Good point :)
May 5th, 2009 at 1:20 amSo what has Cantor done to keep the rising costs of health care in Va. down, while he was the majority party?
What of the Health Care costs during Jeb’s term as Gov in Florida?
May 5th, 2009 at 3:07 amI THANK
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Watching this little puke makes me sick. I had a friend who couldn’t get health care and died of breast cancer. She got so sick she lost her job and health care. When she applied for Medi-cal the wait was so long she died. This cantor puke has no idea how everyday Americans struggle. And I would be happy to have a Canadian or Great Britain health care system in this country. And it is not true that one has to wait 3 months for an appointment. What a f%$#&^g liar.
May 5th, 2009 at 3:49 pmkimbutgar, I’m very sorry to hear of your friend. I hope things change for us here before others fall to the same fate.
May 5th, 2009 at 4:59 pm